I personally can't even remember the last time I've seen a Nydus Worm in a pro game and I dont think I've ever seen one on the ladder. I don't play Zerg as my main, yet recently I've been messing around with them when helping my friend who's new to Starcraft get into the game. The games were far from professional obviously, I didn't put endless pressure on him so I had a lot of resources to play around with all the tech whilst he did his thing.
So after seeing how useful it can actually be, why don't pro players, and even ladder players not use it very often, if at all?
Its uses are quite broad. 1. For offensive. It can be snuck into a corner of an enemies base with overlord/overseer vision, or even put in vision if your feeling more bold. 2. It can also be put on the map close to the enemies base to allow your army to be 'rallied' there much sooner. 3. It could possibly be used as a way to rally drones and produced units from distant bases to your focus defensive area. 4. I remember discussions on it being able to replace a Hatchery, using a series of rallies with drones. Not sure if this is practical or not I haven't tried it.
Now we do know the potential offensive purposes of a Nydus Worm, a few Zerglings to bypass a T or P's wall can be devastating and such a nuisance for them to deal with. You can even go more heavy and bring a big army to do much more serious damage in places they have undefended. A lot of Zerg's strength comes from counter attacks, however simply running some Zerglings into the front of an opponents base, while yes they can sometimes do massive damage, other times reinforcement units or a well build sim city can fend them off. Bypassing those sorts of defences puts the enemy in a whole new world of pressure and in many circumstances could force a retreat if their army is advancing toward you.
However I have also seen Zerg players die due to their multiple bases being separated, preventing any produced units from gathering together to fight the enemies army. In situations like this, wouldn't it be worth at least having a Nydus Canal and throwing up a head at the base you need it at, so you can gather your forces in either location to attempt a defence?
I believe the main Nydus building is 150/200 and the cost to spawn an additional Worm is a further 100/100. The minerals are nothing but 200 gas can be a bit painful to spend for a 'maybe' situation like the defensive reasons. Yet 200 gas spent is better than a loss to a Forcefield drop in your main, or a well positioned tank line.
If the Zerg does not intend to use the Nydus for offensive purposes, at least keep the main structure ready to build a head for potential defensive purposes. Thoughts?
Edit: Corrected the cost values, I don't play Zerg so I dont have the building costs memorised, I looked it up on wiki but mistakingly put the value of the Nydus Worm rather than the Network. The increased gas cost does change the argument slightly, but still. I'm sure this has uses we have yet to fully utilise, perhaps it could do with some buffing from Blizzard to encourage such experimentation.
Because workers can kill them, they cost gas each time you want to make a new one, and yes they are used but they tend to not be very effective except in late game for getting from one place to another very fast. Trying to use it to attack into someones base is usually useless.
Players usually have complete vision of their base. It cost 300 gas, so it's too expensive to use in the mid-game without weakening your army. It's only viable in the late-game, when opponents have static d at most of their bases to prevent runby's anyway, so you aren't really going to snipe a base. It also announces itself, spits units out 1 at a time (especially annoying when it's loaded with lings), and is super super fragile.
It's just not really worth it, unless you are 100% sure it'll go unspotted, and you'll have 10-20 seconds to unload your army.
I suppose they could be effectively used defensively to hold far bases but until the worms are cancellable and they can survive gentle caresses from small packs of workers, they're not gonna be a legitimate offensive threat.
Early game, Nydus is pure cheese. You do damage with it (or BO counter some cheesy warp prism allin) or you're in the hole 200+ gas for basically nothing; not to mention you basically have to rush to Lair to have Nydus be effective which leaves you open for large timing windows Late game Nydus is much more viable, in which case I've seen Nydus used many times in ZvT versus mech to much success, but it does nothing but make the 200/200 mech ball force an all-or-nothing scenario which the zerg is oftentimes severely disadvantaged against.
Basically, ZvP, Nydus is as coinflippy as it gets. ZvT it's a little more viable versus mech play. Then again, I am but a lowly masters player.
On March 01 2012 13:39 Bibbit wrote: I suppose they could be effectively used defensively to hold far bases but until the worms are cancellable and they can survive gentle caresses from small packs of workers, they're not gonna be a legitimate offensive threat.
I have a theory that it might be an interesting idea to add an "upgrade" to a Nydus Worm's head that increases it's health and unload speed. Perhaps the upgrade would temporarily disable the Nydus Worm's head while morphing and would take a while to morph, which would make it be unusable offensively, but it would make Nydus Worms be much more useful defensively like the Nydus Canals of BW.
Unless you want to become nydus dependant or go for an all-in, nydus won't be an effective way to invest early to mid game. When you got floaters and your army is a bit more immobile ie: no lings, then it is a good way to traverse the map.
My main problem with it is just that it unloads so slowly. Investing in drops has always been more effective in my opinion (it's only gas coast is the initial 200, then you have it all game) And while you do really need overloard speed for it to be of any use, you should have that anyway in every game.
Honestly with the way trends are lately, if Blizzard buffs Nydus, by reducing its cost or increasing its HP or something, I bet they're going to be so common. They're good, just nobody uses them, especially in late game.
For offensive: Because it makes a loud ass screeching noise, and most pro's have good vision around them.
For Defensive: Because you have to unload each unit 1 by 1, so if a huge protoss death ball is moving on your 4th base, the worst thing that could happen would be getting 1/2 your army out and they kill it. The other problem is speed. Zerg is usually pretty fast, so I guess I don't see it being much faster.
And if a pro start using it to move people to hidden expands, then once a pro does it a few times the cat will be out of the bag and once the opponent hears a nydus network pop up they go expansion hunting.
All in all, I think its more of a meta-game thing. The games I see nydus used most commonly on are Taldarim, a big ass map. Currently I think we're seeing larger 1v1 maps being established, which I don't think favor hidden expansions nearly as much.
Gotta echo everyone else's thoughts. It is a large investment that is not guaranteed for even the slightest return. In the lategame I actually prefer drops instead of Nydus, at least with drops you know the units will actually get out and do something. If the health was buffed slightly, it didn't have the ridiculous I'M HERE scream and maybe if they allowed it to be cancelled (I'd be ok with this not being an option if workers couldn't kill it) I'd be throwin' down Nydus like you wouldn't believe.
It's just not enough gaurunteed benefit for the cost. Imagine paying 200 gas to maybe get a +1 attack upgrade. It's just not useful enough for its cost and the areas where it is useful, it isn't garunteed.
It would be awesome if it cost like 200 minerals to create and 200 minerals to spawn. It would add a lot of options for late game Zerg and help for more defensive and offensive play at the cost of very good micro.
I think the Nydus Worm can be an amazing tool, but the technology metagame isn't there yet or something. Early game it costs so much so it can only really be an allin/cheese tactic, midgame it cuts from your army a lot, or delays tech, so again, it's sort of meh. Lategame I think it has a lot of potential, especially for moving key units around the map and for dealing damage to mech/turtles.
If each exit didn't cost 100 gas, you're probably see it more often. Zerg is already gas starved as it is. Investing 300 gas into something that most of the time depends on your opponent not spotting it for it to be effective is not a sound strategy for the most part. Sure, in the late game when everyone is on 4+ bases, you can make a case there, but then it still unloads too slowly for it to be a good sudden attack surprise, especially with the nydus scream. At that point, big doom drops are more effective most of the time, or even just simple baneling drops into worker lines. It's a pretty nice tool in ZvP when you're doing a hydra aggressive build, but then it's still pretty all-in and games don't usually transition into a macro game after those 2 base nydus builds.
I like the idea of using it to traverse a map to hit a very small timing window with fairly immobile units, e.g. hydras -- I think LosirA did this at MLG vs. .... maybe it was MC? Anyways, can't remember if it was all-in or not. T.T
My favorite way of using Nydus worms is in situations when you'd otherwise be trapping in your entire army. Like on Shakuras ZvZ you want to take out a couple of bases b/c you caught your opponent out of position? push into natural, put down Nydus while you are doing it, snipe hatches/tech then exit through the nydus with minimal losses. it feels so dirty.
On March 01 2012 13:49 babylon wrote: I like the idea of using it to traverse a map to hit a very small timing window with fairly immobile units, e.g. hydras -- I think LosirA did this at MLG vs. .... maybe it was MC? Anyways, can't remember if it was all-in or not. T.T
Yeah that was a cute build I've seen a few times. But that's all the Nydus is, cute. As far as metagame trends go I'm certain the Nydus has seen some time in plenty of practice games, it's just not good enough to ever consider strategically when there are other things you could invest in that are so much more stable and strong.
It's a risky gamble to use 300 gas on it. I do however endorse using it to reinforce an attack since it lays down creep and is almost as good as warp gates late game. Too bad it has almost no health, gets scouted easily and unless they are asleep won't end the game.
On March 01 2012 13:47 Torte de Lini wrote: Can't be canceled. Expensive to build. Expensive to make a Nydus. Obvious and limited use. units come out one at a time when you unload
Yeah...all of these things have to be changed. ESPECIALLY the last one. They should make it so smaller units come out faster than bigger units. Like 4 lings or so at once, 2 roaches/hydras, 1 ultra, etc.
It could become someday like nukes - if you remember there were times when we were excited for just one nuke in the game. I know, right? Now people nuke all over the place. Sometimes pro's use them this way, but I bet it's still not optimized. Basically, if you invest in more than one offensive nydus simultaneously, you get double or triple the unloading speed, and suddenly the attack isn't that bad. I think in pro matches it's very rare to be able to pop them inside enemy base, but like pylons, you could hide them somewhere close enough and just use that for reinforcing your main attack.
On March 01 2012 13:51 p4NDemik wrote: My favorite way of using Nydus worms is in situations when you'd otherwise be trapping in your entire army. Like on Shakuras ZvZ you want to take out a couple of bases b/c you caught your opponent out of position? push into natural, put down Nydus while you are doing it, snipe hatches/tech then exit through the nydus with minimal losses. it feels so dirty.
Yes, this is the best way to use Nydus IMO. Or maybe combo it with a roach doom-drop late-game to provide direct reinforcements and/or a quick retreat path.
So I actually like to use Nydus a lot, but for late game reinforcements and retreating. When I do a push on a base with my units, I rally all new larvae to the tunnel, build the worm at the base I am attacking, and rein in continuous units if I can, or just retreat if things get hairy. Then my units are back at my base instantly to defend against counter-attacks.
Overall I ask this question all the time and in late game I cannot see why people don't use it for what I described more often other than the fact that it just has not needed to be done yet. I almost always like to build one and attempt to scare them in the main a bit once in awhile as well. It is like DTs or nukes in that even if you don't do much damage at all, at least you scare them and if they fail to react, then you will just win or do a ton of damage. It is a tool that is great for forcing the initiative. I just think that sometime in the future people will figure this out.
I think an easy fix would be to treat it as a borrowed unit. You would still hear the screech and while you would be able to see it while it was morphing/building(the ground crumbling animation) you would not be able to attack it tell it popped unless you had detection. After it popped it would be the same as it is now. Maybe then you could work it into a strat instead of it being a very high risk with low successes like it is now.
On March 01 2012 13:35 `Zapdos wrote: Because workers can kill them, they cost gas each time you want to make a new one, and yes they are used but they tend to not be very effective except in late game for getting from one place to another very fast. Trying to use it to attack into someones base is usually useless.
all of this. They might be usefukl in metagame if you can land one and spit out 4 ultralisks in someones base or something. you know, a unit that has a lot of power/single unit load time cost ratio. maybe also use it to "blink" 4 infestors into someone's base, spit some ITs and then 'blink" back. Its a powerful harass option. Unfortunately gameplay styles from anyone above retarded monkey level will find and shut it down.
here's the difference between nydus worm and nydus canal.
Nydus canals spit out 12 units simultaneously (or something crazy like that). Nydus canals can only be built on creep, so basically its base to base defense. in this game, especially due to creep increasing speed, nydus worms are far less useful for that. you can get your units out of a worm 1-by-1 from across the map into your base to try to defend it, but then you're out of position and youre just sending units into a linear egress suicide line. contrast to getting there just a tiny bit slower with creep speed, and the choice is obious. Also DPS is huge in sc2 unlike sc1. in sc1 you could get out of a canal and defend, because positioning mattered less if you could micro, and all races had pretty even damage stats. unloading in the face of an sc2 deathball is suicide.
for all these reasons, nydus worm is garbage. It's a design concept from sc1, and it doesn't work in sc2. For it to work, would require that the power of all the races was balanced like sc1.
On March 01 2012 14:08 Quintum_ wrote: I think an easy fix would be to treat it as a borrowed unit. You would still hear the screech and while you would be able to see it while it was morphing/building(the ground crumbling animation) you would not be able to attack it tell it popped unless you had detection. After it popped it would be the same as it is now. Maybe then you could work it into a strat instead of it being a very high risk with low successes like it is now.
That's actually a pretty good idea. The screech would have to be moved to the front but I feel like it's health would still have to be buffed. Terran could just scan and kill it with SCVs before it even popped.
Conceptually it's hard to visualize how to use it and how much benefit you are getting from it. It's very much like creep in that way, but harder because you have to invest in it.
There's a lot of underused nydus techniques though. For example, Nydus' are great for preventing armies from moving out in force or just in general winning base trade. Without a nydus often times if a player moves out and is attacked, they'll either retreat and kill the attacking army, or push on for a base trade. With a Nydus either response kind of sucks. If they push on they'll face a full army back at the zerg's base already in position (assuming the Zerg responds in a timely matter), if the turn back the army will slip away in the nydus and take minimal losses. Even if it does become a base trade, the zerg army has the chance to evacuate all drones (more or less) and rebuild with a full drone count. Meanwhile a T or P has to move workers cross map exposing them to risk.
The other situation is doing really strong harass tricks. An example is harassing with mutalisks, while attacking with zerglings on a 3rd. In this situation rather than focusing on the usually protected workers with the mutalisks, they can instead cover a nydus worm (while taking out nearby buildings) that suddenly is a tough thing to respond to. If the player pulls all/most troops to kill the threat, then the 3rd is undefended. If the player sends a response that's what you'd normally send to handle the mutalisks the worm is probably going to complete before the mutas die and the force will be overrun by the emerging units (unless they target the worm first, but worms have a better hp/cost ratio than mutas). Even worse, depending on the base defense, by moving to cover the worm and kill that you may be exposing parts of the main or your nat to the mutalisk harass. Think about a worm on the far out corner of Tal'Darim Altar's mains where mutas can strike at any point along that flank from main to nat or fly to the 3rd, but you need to move troops out of position to attack the worm. If the player sends no response then obviously nydus in the base. If the player sends a somewhat larger response than you'd normally send for just the mutas, the zerg can pull back the mutas and hit the 3rd full force before the T can respond (map dependent). So you it really reduces the opponent's possible margin of error. They need to handle the situation really well to make sure they take down the nydus, defend their 3rd, and don't expose workers or units to risk of being overrun.
Take Korhal Compound for example. If your opponent is on 3 bases they have a long flank to defend where getting to the left (if they are top) side of their 3rd is a far way away from how you enter the natural. With a nydus on that side of the map one one mid-map it becomes really hard to keep up with an army bouncing between the two, especially if it is combined with the threat of mutalisks or drops that also demand defend of the main, and again base trading isn't much of an option because the zerg will get back to defend before you cross the map.
One other tactic I am dieing to see someone use... it must be done... bait an scv pull with a nydus worm, but have the spotting overlord full of banelings.
The last important situation I see ALL THE TIME in pro games that make me wonder about nydus is late game ZvT when you have something like a cross map split with a wide flank exposed. Time and time again I'll see the Z attack in with ultra/infestor army, but have to pull back because the T army is moving out to kill the Z's 3rd/4th. In these situations mid-map nyduses would be a life saver by allowing the Z to harass T 3rds/4ths, then be back and in position in time to defend. Without the nydus what I see happen again and again is the Z gets back as the T is setting up outside of the Z's base so rather than attacking from position the Z is attacking into position with a stretched out/scattered army. + Show Spoiler [Very minor Winter Assembly Spoilers] +
The Winter Assembly finals/semi-finals/3rd place matches really showed that in a few games, I think Stephano's play mostly.
Nydus worms are really cost efficient too, more than given credit for. Their main weakness cost-wise is being sniped (the canal, not the worm). 1 Worm though is 100/100 which is only 4 roaches worth of gas or 1 mutalisk and they will easily save way more than that by giving you superior positioning, retreating capabilities, and harassment options. If you imagined a game where someone could spread creep (but better creep) to any point on the map near instantly for 100/100 you'd see people do that, often. The 150/150 'research cost' makes it less automatic or something not to do every game, but not by much.
Still one worm is around 6 zerglings, 2-4 roaches, or <1/2 an ultra. All you need to do is save just that little and the worm paid for itself, over time the canal can pay for itself it doesn't need to do it in one worm. Offensively you're looking at just a few workers or 2 minor buildings and the worm has paid for itself. It just feels expensive because they're often misused and when used properly the benefit isn't always clearly related (much like creep's benefits can be tricky to spot).
People make worms out to be drops way to much. Their only strong drop-like use is that they can be done in reaction to spotting a potential drop situation like catching someone vulnerable to mutalisk harass and using that to make a worm.
So basically I think Nydus worms are one of the strongest things in the games, but players aren't using them for some reason, mostly because they're hard to conceptualize and unless the worm pays off huge it's hard to analyze if it was cost efficient. I think that anytime a zerg feels like he has control of the game a well used nydus is a good way to hold on to that control of the game.
My core point is: People don't think about nydus' properly. They are much closer in function to creep than drops. Think of worms as super creep that bends space and time to your advantage.
Oh also... It's not about sneaking worms into someone's base hoping they don't notice. That's completely missing the point.
If worms need a buff the ONLY two things worth buffing imo are: -Canal (not worm) hp (The canal is a weak point to any long term nydus strategy/usage). -Gas cost of worm from 100->50 (Zerg are gas hungry as is, this would help)
Making worms have more hp would be OP for tactics like mutalisks covering a canal while lings poke the 3rd/nat. As would making them invis or anything like that.
1. For offensive. It can be snuck into a corner of an enemies base with overlord/overseer vision, or even put in vision if your feeling more bold.
Well at the pro level its a lot harder to catch someone with their pants down like this, and due to Zerg's inability to cancel the nydus its pretty risky because theres a chance that you are just throwing away gas for nothing. However, if you can catch your opponent off guard with this than it can be very beneficial.
2. It can also be put on the map close to the enemies base to allow your army to be 'rallied' there much sooner.
This is pretty good even though I never see it. I guess most Zergs really want their gas for other things.
3. It could possibly be used as a way to rally drones and produced units from distant bases to your focus defensive area.
This is only practical on really big maps and when you are willing to set up a network for defensive purposes. The thing is that units come out pretty slow so if you don't notice a push and units show up in an expansion then its going to be lost whether you have a nydus or not.
4. I remember discussions on it being able to replace a Hatchery, using a series of rallies with drones. Not sure if this is practical or not I haven't tried it.
Its not very practical because of the gas and you have to babysit it constantly. Just go for the Hatchery, larva never hurt. Although, it could be okay in extreme circumstances but definitely not standard.
There's one good use for it in mid game. plant it in your enemy's third. now you have a place to reinforce from quickly like a proxy pylon which is great for slow ass hydras, and they have to kill a worm + wait for creep to go away to expand.
On March 01 2012 13:56 figq wrote: It could become someday like nukes - if you remember there were times when we were excited for just one nuke in the game. I know, right? Now people nuke all over the place. Sometimes pro's use them this way, but I bet it's still not optimized. Basically, if you invest in more than one offensive nydus simultaneously, you get double or triple the unloading speed, and suddenly the attack isn't that bad. I think in pro matches it's very rare to be able to pop them inside enemy base, but like pylons, you could hide them somewhere close enough and just use that for reinforcing your main attack.
if one nydus network could build three worms at once, you'd have a case.
I was trying to make 3+ worms at once in midfield shattered temple for this very reason (increased throughput speed), bacik in gold.
There's a reason that has fallen by the wayside. it wasnt very effective then, and and definitely not going to do anything in master/gm but get you killed.
Because the players aren't good enough to use it effectively yet.
Same reason ravens aren't used enough (yes they would need a buff to lower that skill-requirement though), same reason we don't see alot of stuff yet. Players are simply not good enough yet.
On March 01 2012 14:37 Leeoku wrote: cant be cancelled too much gas
its only to much gas if u rush for it. nydus worms shine late game. its so good after u get all ur hive tech stuff because u can bounce back and forth without having to worry about the immobility of broods.
nydus worms suffer from the same underatement as ravens and pre-shield buff warp prisms. it will take a buff or something for zergs to actually start using them. either that or a pro player that uses them as a legit build order rather than cheese for ppl to blindly copy. its a shame really. they have alot of potential. imo there better then warping units in with pylon power because u can also retreat into the nydus and save ur units.
nydus worms have the potential to give zerg ground army SOOOOOOO much mobility that its insane. u can litteraly be everywhere on the map at once with constant and good nydus play. especially on those larger maps.
Like others have said, its kind of high-risk-high-reward, and arguably high-risk-meh-reward. Relatively expensive (overlord speed & drop upgrades have the same price as a Nydus worm with one exit), obnoxiously loud warning to your opponent when it pops, can be killed by just workers while constructing if its spotted, should the Nydus exit get sniped all the units already sent through it are stranded, etc. Doom drop upgrades are just a better way of executing most tactics and has a lot more versatility for the price (bane rain, scouting with overlords, etc.)
Edit: Connecting bases with defensive Nydus Worms just isn't really justifiable - if an outlying expo comes under attack, the Worm is going to get sniped before you can possibly put enough units through it. Its possible this hasn't been fully explored yet, but I don't think its a promising tactic either.
Similarly, trying to use it as a way to speed-rally to the front doesn't work in practice when you've got reinforcements coming from 5+ bases strewn across a map. Again, possible this just hasn't been explored but doesn't seem likely to result in much.
It's underused because the majority od players think it's too expensive for what it has to offer. And they are right, Low hp, slow unload, you can't cancel worms when spotted + opponent always knows that there is nydus on the map.
On March 01 2012 13:56 figq wrote: It could become someday like nukes - if you remember there were times when we were excited for just one nuke in the game. I know, right? Now people nuke all over the place. Sometimes pro's use them this way, but I bet it's still not optimized. Basically, if you invest in more than one offensive nydus simultaneously, you get double or triple the unloading speed, and suddenly the attack isn't that bad. I think in pro matches it's very rare to be able to pop them inside enemy base, but like pylons, you could hide them somewhere close enough and just use that for reinforcing your main attack.
if one nydus network could build three worms at once, you'd have a case.
I was trying to make 3+ worms at once in midfield shattered temple for this very reason (increased throughput speed), bacik in gold.
There's a reason that has fallen by the wayside. it wasnt very effective then, and and definitely not going to do anything in master/gm but get you killed.
You build them sequentially as part of mass confusion in dedicated attacks. Say you're playing a ground army vs siege tanks. Nydus outside their 3rd or nat (whichever is less defended), hit it a bit while making a nydus outside their natural which you can pop to. If you have drop or mutas you can also drop/harass and try for one in their base all back to back. This kind of rapid striking can force their army out of position really well.
People assume the worm is bad, then work off that assumption.
Yes it has low hp and takes a bit to build. Neither of those things matter if your opponent doesn't know where it's coming or if your army is between them and it. An opponent can scout their own base well, but they don't get to have perfect vision of the rest of the map, just look at how easy it is to get a proxy pylon up later on in the game.
I equate the popular opinion of the Nydus worm to saying that banelings suck because when you run one in vs a comparable # of marines it isn't cost efficient. Yeah the result of the situation technically true, but it's completely missing the context.
I feel like the pros should really try experimenting with making builds/timing attacks focused completely on the nydus worm. Surely there have to be some good timings for a nonstop aggression type thing!
The thing with nydus is that drops are better for what people suggesting in most situations.
It can be killed by workers within the time it takes to make. In essence it's similiar to the Warp Prism prior to it's 'buff'. In order for the nydus to be used in non-gimmiky ways it needs a health buff, or something to that affect. Torte pretty much covered points why it's bad.
Edit: It can be used in high level games though. Occasionally it's a method I'll use to break a contain in ZvT, and it's starting to find use in high level ZvZ, when there are just mass roach festor hydra standoffs.
Too many people attempt to use them only as an in-base, hidden cheesy tactic.
I utilize them pretty heavily as a forward pylon. They're very helpful when you want to really pile the pressure on, ESPECIALLY with Hydras in ZvP. I'm sure everyone has encountered scenarios where you attacked, did good damage and wanted to continue the pressure or possibly deal a killing move, but your units took too long to get there and by the time your army is replenished, your opponent has had time to match the army or put up adequate defenses.
Alternatively, it's also helpful as a retreat method if you get in over your head, again, especially with Hydras.
Also, it's easy to send a Queen through the Nydus, drop some creep and spread it for greater forward mobility.
yup, nydus make aggressive hydra play very viable in ZvP. tbh i think blizz is worried about buffing nydus at all because of how good it is. like i said before, it gives the zerg ground army insane mobility that can surpass the warp in machanic of toss if it wasnt for the high gas cost of making alot of networks.
i use to experiment heavy nydus play in the beta but then stoped in favor of infestor broods or infestor ultra. i might start experimenting again because they really do have alot of potential
On March 01 2012 14:48 RedMosquito wrote: cuz zerg is so fast they dont need it. protoss or terran could benefit more from something like a nydus imo
this. theirs really no point in slowly unloading out of nyduses when zerglings fly around the map.
I disagree with the people saying that it should have more hp/be easier to use. if it was tough enough to withstand workers, then you would have to station army at your main at all times, which i think is unfair. I think its fair and right to have the nydus be extrememly weak, considering how dangerous it can be if it gets into your main and wreaks havok.
I rather use overlords to transport my army if I need, if you upgrade it you can use multiple times. I think it's harder to do nydus offensively more than once because the opponent will be on their toes. What puts me off with nydus even more is that it does alert the enemy, but if I drop there's nothing telling the enemy that I have dropped him (assuming he has no vision). The overlord upgrade is something you can have all game long you always get overlords anyway, but with nydus you have to pay for each time for each new one.
Unload times means very little of a large zerg army can get out in a reasonable amount of time. Spanishiwa used them with ultras which makes the unload rate doable, but otherwise it is tough
The main points are that Nydus Worms cannot be cancelled, which makes the gas cost risky unless you are floating very high end game. Health is much too low, it gives the enemy an early warning (which I never understood) and units come out only one at a time. This makes it basically useless for it's intended purpose. Sure, you can link bases and it would be mildly helpful, but if you are about to get swamped by an army it's not very viable to transfer your army via a Nydus Worm to that location. If you realize you can't fight the army, but they snipe it in 2 seconds, then you can't retreat.
There are just too many negatives. I can understand if it didn't cost gas, then sure keep the rest of its characteristics. They don't need to really change much or buff it hardcore, but removing 1 or maybe even 2 of it's limitations would help immensely.
The killer for me personally is the speed at which units come out, but I'm not saying it should be changed. 1 at a time is just too slow to be effective, when a couple workers can kill the worm. or rines shoot everything coming out immediately, idk man. But if everything came out at once that would be imba as fuck haha. So idk, maybe the metagame will get there, maybe it wont. ZvX all feel prettty "tight" as in...
it doesnt feel like there are a lot of minerals and gas floating around to possibly throw away to get rid of 20 seconds of travel time.
On March 01 2012 14:58 Azhrei16 wrote: The main points are that Nydus Worms cannot be cancelled, which makes the gas cost risky unless you are floating very high end game. Health is much too low, it gives the enemy an early warning (which I never understood) and units come out only one at a time. This makes it basically useless for it's intended purpose. Sure, you can link bases and it would be mildly helpful, but if you are about to get swamped by an army it's not very viable to transfer your army via a Nydus Worm to that location. If you realize you can't fight the army, but they snipe it in 2 seconds, then you can't retreat.
There are just too many negatives. I can understand if it didn't cost gas, then sure keep the rest of its characteristics. They don't need to really change much or buff it hardcore, but removing 1 or maybe even 2 of it's limitations would help immensely.
If you have vision you have a pretty good idea of if the worm can be killed or not. Saying it's risky is only true if you aren't putting any effort into minimizing that risk by good scouting and map awareness.
it doesnt feel like there are a lot of minerals and gas floating around to possibly throw away to get rid of 20 seconds of travel time.
I think this is a feeling that can be proven wrong is people use worms properly and really try for them. It's like a lot of things in Starcraft, it might feel terrible at first because it's counter-intuitive, but that doesn't mean it's wrong.
I use them all the time lategame ZvT :o. Only if I have a decent bank, and I always get at least 2. One is stupid, they don't come out fast enough, and you can't cause chaos by having multiple going at once.
I just had a Zerg try to do a one base nydus/speed roach play. It was bad. I'm very bad at this game and I was able to constantly deny the nydus. So from personal experience, early nydus play is really bad. Late game I think that they could be very useful. Defending far away expos. Catching a Terran off guard in his mined out main (=> no more scvs close by to instantly surround and kill it) Possibly forcing the T to fight where he doesn't want to. Could work.
Drops and counter attacks effectively do what a nydus does, but better and cheaper.
They have their niche uses though, and I'm sure high level zergs have experimented with them a lot, and the results are the niche uses you see now.
I do think they need a little bit of a buff. Perhaps allowing 2-3 units to unload at a time or allowing them to be cancelled during production to get 75% of their cost back
On March 01 2012 15:11 BlondeOna wrote: Drops and counter attacks effectively do what a nydus does, but better and cheaper.
They have their niche uses though, and I'm sure high level zergs have experimented with them a lot, and the results are the niche uses you see now.
I do think they need a little bit of a buff. Perhaps allowing 2-3 units to unload at a time or allowing them to be cancelled during production to get 75% of their cost back
They should buff it but allow enemy units to use it too.
It costs gas, and the fact that it unloads one zergling at the same speed as an ultra is a real turn down.
If you're trying to use it offensively, most people usually have full vision of bases with pylons/depots/overlords and will be nearly impossible to sneak a nydus in. Even if it does work it counts on opponent not reacting to it fast enough, which brings it down to a cheese.
Using it link outer bases feels kinda uneccessary, as zerg armies are already the fastest in the game, if enemy uses drop I'd rather have a couple spine crawlers (which costs only minerals and no gas). If they bring their whole army over the nydus is gonna unload too slow to get your army in position anyways.
Using it as a retreat path can work, but I am unsure of it. But we'll probably not see it anywhere before mid-lategame anyways.
On March 01 2012 13:34 AcrosstheSky wrote: Metagame hasn't got there yet. Once zergs learn to start using them it'll become more than a cheese option.
Well, a risky tool that costs 300 gas AT LEAST, gives no upgrade or bonus, once scouted is incredibly hard to be used, that doesnt sound like a cheese? does to me
On March 01 2012 13:47 Torte de Lini wrote: Can't be canceled. Expensive to build. Expensive to make a Nydus. Obvious and limited use. units come out one at a time when you unload
^
+ the build time is stupid, david kim mentioned they want to buff it somewho but they are not sure
Any offensive move you might make with them can be done better and for much cheaper with overlord drops instead.
By the time you get affordable access to Nydus tech, it's unlikely that your opponent will have any significant blind spots in their base, and even if you manage to find one and get a Nydus to complete, it takes quite a while to get any real volume of units out, and you can't control the order in which units are released. And trying to move any significant part of your forces through at once is very dangerous as all it takes is a few volleys from a handful of units to destroy it and cut off half your army.
Their best function IMO is for transferring units between bases for defensive purposes. For example, as Zerg I'll often pop a Nydus at my fifth or sixth base on Shakuras, so I can transfer drones without drawing attention to the fact the base is there, and to bring in reinforcements against harassment/evacuate drones. There aren't really many maps left in the map pool large enough to warrant this, however.
They cost so much gas. If they were cheaper on gas I would use them defensively mostly, but at 100 gas a pop + 200 to get the warm it's a lot of precious gas which zerg should always be starving in T_T.
Nydus worm usage in the early mid-game will always be cheesy and a timing attack cos it's such an investment in tht stage at the game.
However, nydus worms in late game should be used more often, and are getting used more. A fair amount of korean zergs do it fairly often in late game ZvT on maps like Shakuras, where the Terran can split the map easily. Rather than suiciding thru the centre, nydus harass on a terran's 4th is quite strong. They have uses, but i don't think they'll ever be a viable non-cheesy mid game strategy
Because Overlord drops are better in general. Yes, there are situations where nydus is better. In the long run, overlord drops are more cost efficient.
the biggest problem is they unload slow and cost alot
if they didnt cost as much you could just build a few and pop a couple up and have units come out at same pace or make units come out at like 3 at a time like in the campaign
Zerg, for some reason, seem to be the '1a' race with regard to strategies. You don't really see the subtlety of the small things that you do with P and T. Everything has to be gigantic brushstrokes. Every strategy is 'min/maxed', if it's not the best possible thing, it's totally worthless. You never see zerg do 'just a little bit'. Just make 'a few' of a type of unit. Holy shit, I must make 20 infestors. Holy shit, I must make 20 broodlords. Remember that game in NASL that Sen lost horribly because he just couldn't control himself from making 20 broodlords when only a handful would have sealed the game for him? I think it's because of their production. If P or T make a building, they have to use that building or it goes to waste, whereas Zerg doesn't lose a whole lot by, say, building a hydra den but then only building roaches.
I don't use nydus because whenever opponents use them against me, I look around as soon as I hear ARGHGHGHGHG and I can usually kill it before it unloads speedlings. Unload speed isn't very good so I just drop instead since that seems more versatile to me.
I did like seeing pros unload a queen first to transfuse it though
Expensive Low health Can't cancel it Builds too slow Makes a loud noise that alerts all enemies within a 5 map radius Unloads units too slowly. It unloads one unit at a time. I say it's expensive but I would like to emphasize that it is 200 gas which is a lot of gas to a zerg.
Metagame hasn't gotten there. Tbh I totally disagree with the whole "pros usually catch it" argument. They're not very different from drops, albeit a bit slower. My argument is that although it's not the greatest investment early-mid game, we should definitely be seeing more of it in max v max games and general late game.
Max zerg with money to spare can definitely afford to spend money on not 1 nydus, but 4-5 in enemy bases to punish a player who is out of position. Creep allows zerg vision and thus time to funnel units back into their main army as needed. 3/3 lings with glands upgrade take down buildings fairly well; a maxed enemy army can't actually build any more units to stop a nydus even if they see it.
As for all the talk about gas, gas, gas, I really think late game isn't make or break based off of 500 gas or so.
On March 01 2012 15:49 Jerubaal wrote: Zerg, for some reason, seem to be the '1a' race with regard to strategies. You don't really see the subtlety of the small things that you do with P and T. Everything has to be gigantic brushstrokes. Every strategy is 'min/maxed', if it's not the best possible thing, it's totally worthless. You never see zerg do 'just a little bit'. Just make 'a few' of a type of unit. Holy shit, I must make 20 infestors. Holy shit, I must make 20 broodlords. Remember that game in NASL that Sen lost horribly because he just couldn't control himself from making 20 broodlords when only a handful would have sealed the game for him? I think it's because of their production. If P or T make a building, they have to use that building or it goes to waste, whereas Zerg doesn't lose a whole lot by, say, building a hydra den but then only building roaches.
On March 01 2012 15:49 Jerubaal wrote: Zerg, for some reason, seem to be the '1a' race with regard to strategies. You don't really see the subtlety of the small things that you do with P and T. Everything has to be gigantic brushstrokes. Every strategy is 'min/maxed', if it's not the best possible thing, it's totally worthless. You never see zerg do 'just a little bit'. Just make 'a few' of a type of unit. Holy shit, I must make 20 infestors. Holy shit, I must make 20 broodlords. Remember that game in NASL that Sen lost horribly because he just couldn't control himself from making 20 broodlords when only a handful would have sealed the game for him? I think it's because of their production. If P or T make a building, they have to use that building or it goes to waste, whereas Zerg doesn't lose a whole lot by, say, building a hydra den but then only building roaches.
In summary: give me a fucking break.
You are right in that I don't really notice the Protoss subtleties when they wedge their 13 minute ball of 2 base stuff between my hatcheries.
Anyways, it's too expensive to build just in case most of the time. Overlord drops is the better choice to have just in case. It's also just extremely difficult to use right because it takes setup time. I tried using them a bunch and usually the enemies army shows up at just the worst time such as half your stuff is in the nydus network somewhere and the other half isn't.
You want to do with a nydus what terran does with drops late-game: split your opponent and tax their multitasking. However, nydus are essentially one time use, and they're not cheap. That, and zerg drops just aren't that effective (other than banelings, which isn't really the same as a regular drop, more a method of baneling attack). Nydus isn't that useful for a base-trade either, as zerg can usually just go around the opposing army and attack quicker than you could unload with a nydus.
I think I saw a crazy pro game where the Z was contained and T didnt have enough to push up either (was only able to contain with the usage of bunkers). Z made nydus to expand and move army to defend expansions. As long as you load/unload ahead in time (by scouting with a couple of speedlings), you'll be fine.
Pretty epic game. If anyone can remember it, please let us know the players' names and the tourney.
Increase its HP maybe? It could prove useful for reinforcing an attack I suppose, but as a player hits lair tech they'd rather use the gas somewhere else.
doing a nydus before lategame is very gimmiky as you are relying on your oppoent playing bad and not scouting around their base. nyduses die easily to pretty much everything, even workers so if u cant nydus and cant break your front, you've just wasted alot of larva on units instead of drones. late game however they are very good offensively if u can manage it.
the main reason nyduses arent used defensively is because of its unloading speed, in bw nyduses unloaded all the units as soon as tjhey went in and could be used to renforce an expansion super quickly. in sc2 all your units unload one by one. they cant make it so it unloads faster like bw either due to nyduses now being able to be planted anywhere rather than only on creep.
The standard zerg compositions are always faster than T / P armies, so you can already maneuver pretty well. Likewise, using a nydus to get into a main isn't always the best idea mid/ late game; buildings tend to form chokes that benefit the defending units much more than your lings/ roaches.
I played zerg a bit towards the end of Beta and during the second season of ladder, and I used nydus pretty frequently. The one thing I came away with was that using it to sneak into someone's base is simply not a good idea. Way too unreliable.
Where it really shined was in base defense, sort of similar to how JD uses nydus in BW. Instead of taking a close third, I take the third on the other side of the map. With good vision I can see your army coming to kill it, and start unloading the nydus before you get there. If you undercommit, I kill the force and hop back into the nydus; you are behind. If you fully commit I either defend and win or retreat and rebuild the third, safe in the fact that your army is on the other side of the map.
Or popping it up behind your army as it advances; using it similar to how Protoss uses pylons in pushes. constantly teleporting speedlings across the map and leaning with them is pretty good. Or while pushing the third pop a nydus up pretty close to the second. I don't like these as much as defense, but it can certainly work. They're also pretty damn good for base races.
Why don't we see zerg doing these things? Because what zerg is doing right now is working pretty fine for them. Doing these things is more work than they need to do to win games. But as the game evolves these things might be more important to zerg strategy. And I wouldn't be opposed to a nydus hp buff; they die so easily...
The only effective way to use them is build like 3 worms at the same time. This way you can unload 3 times as fast. Problem is that is also is 3 times expensive
Zerg already usually has map control + creep speed boost + slow unload speed + most maps have bases right next to each other + common area (that Z controls).
the gas intensive units are usually slow that benefit from nydus alot, the mineral intensive units are there in a mass, which is bad for unloading. Also while alot talked about it no one mentioned that the op is a bit wrong in the cost. The network itself costs 200 gas ea. (thats why everyone talks about 300 gas for a nydus)
Another reason is that Nydus is generally used really badly, when you see someone getting 2 networks, you will often see them close together, they are pretty durable and splitting them up would really help defending, of course only if both positions are only at risk by drops. You will often see no order when entering the nydus, so lings will be the first to enter and alot mentioned the bad unload speed, well lings are a bad idea to unload first. Having 2 banelings in your nydus first is a pretty good defense against marine drops, especially if they try to snipe the nydus.
Also zerg is currently going deathball style, which is pretty gas intensive and they need every bit of gas after they lost their army to remax on it and they plunk their overmins into statics, replacing the defensive use of nydus.
Offensively its useful in some cases, first of all saving your units, most map are open so this problem presents itself rarely, but running your army on a 4 player map into a main, where no player spawned, can be pretty nasty, so using the nydus will save you tons of gas. Also in the lategame, mains are often really exposed at 200 supply (toss starts to keep staying below 200 because they can still deny drops) really easy to nydus there and creep the whole opponents main and destroying production. And also being home before the conter arrives. My favorite is the hydra pressure, on t2 hydras are really fast available, so you can do a really fast attack paired with the nydus especially against forge fast expands (lately toss loves to get the voidray, and there nydus is no good idea) Also i think because of this the network goes for 200. (its really hard for the toss to hold if they played to greedy)
Defensively i actually prefer to get the network, because of its 850 hp also no sound is nice, and that you can drop double worms. It helps that you won't cut off your reproduction if the opponent is positioned well and you can get out things for a flank, save workers etc. They could actually buff the unload time of the network, to make its defensive use stronger, without affected anything on the offensive(nydus got nerfed because of the offensive so no buffs go into that direction, but like with the reaper i think they overnerfed nydus).
Anyway for ultras and hydras, the nydus is a really helpful tool and will save you tons of gas. For heavy t1 play, the nydus also is really helpful as you can reinforce way faster (i use the nydus in zvz to get my reinforcements even faster then my opponent). Infestor broodlord, no need for a nydus there, unless ...
Metropolis, Nydus here grants you 2 island expos with no need for air dominance, that is 4 extractors, mass drops are risky because of infestors, single drops will do no damage unless you put lings first in the nydus. Nydus works like this on other maps as well, but not that noob friendly.
Anyway with broodlord infestor being the playstyle, i don't think we need to discuss over the nydus every month, so search function next time, all that was said, was said there. (well not the metropolis part)
But the nydus works really well, unless you plan on going for air units or lings :p. (lings are faster without the nydus) Feels pretty much like an sc2 nuke, hard to get damage done with it, but if they don't stop it its worth it and every 20 nydus you do a bullseye. (probably not like the nuke killing the whole army, but i sometimes got the whole production). And if you nydus you don't really plan on losing any units, so you gain gas, while the nydus will keep the opponent busy.
Liquid Ret used on IEM SAO PAULO less than 1 month ago. He won the game, he got lair bc was going mutas. But after being scouted, droped a nydus worm all in, since he felt was behind. And won.
On March 01 2012 13:35 `Zapdos wrote: Because workers can kill them, they cost gas each time you want to make a new one, and yes they are used but they tend to not be very effective except in late game for getting from one place to another very fast. Trying to use it to attack into someones base is usually useless.
this...they are so easy to spot and 5 workers can stop it from going up. i hope that one day people in sc2 will use nydus just like in bw
... because it's simply too expensive for it's use.
If it was only minerals, like a warp prism, they would always be used in nearly every game. Since it cost so much gas, it's rarely being used.
The one decent use for it is a 2 base hydra ling all in... or, I guess, super late game when you can nydus to drop ultras into several different bases with lings to take out structures.
i think if the unload a bit faster they could be a lot more useful. right now even if you do sneak one in without being noticed that loud as fuck roar makes taking it out quickly pretty easy. by the shoe it dies you probably have 10-15 units out if you're lucky.
I think people's reasoning early game is good, too expensive, easy to deny, too slow unloading. But lategame I have no fucking clue why zergs don't build them. Like lategame when you have 4 bases 8 geysers you can easily afford a couple nydii and not be affected almost at all. They have such good uses and are SOOOO scary. Think about that, lategame the potential of a nydus is huge. Go from base to base, always have the threat of being able to nydus your opponent. And if it fails sure it's a loss, so is a failed drop. But the potential is so much more than a drop, for the cost of 1 (or 2 if you include main building) muta you can send your whole army into their base if they are out of position and if they are, their options are total crap. A. Go defend just to see the Zerg retreat to base. Or B. Counter attack to have the Zerg do a ton of damage and be back to defend.
I think once zergs realize how valuable they can be and how scary in general they can be (forcing tons of edge buildings for vision etc) they will start using them more lategame when money isn't a big issue. Its such a cheap investment lategame for it's potential damage. And like other people said, for multiple-purpose uses like having more mobility around your side of the map or for rallied units if your pushing the enemy (while trying to sneak one in opponents main or 3rd )
Morrow just used nydus to send hydras to the front of a toss natural and kep rallying. He did pretty well with it. On Metalopolis he placed it right in front of the ramp to the third, then sent a queen with hydras and dropped a creep tumor.
I'm sometimes using double Nydus + Ultras vs Terran in the very lategame. And it usually comes down to cleaning up 1-2 bases and at some point dying to his army, because I'm conserving Ultras and my army is terrible supplyinefficient in a battle, and then I lose to a maxed push. Imo it's a basetrade tool, nothing more.
On March 01 2012 13:34 AcrosstheSky wrote: Metagame hasn't got there yet. Once zergs learn to start using them it'll become more than a cheese option.
This may be part of it, or it may be that Sensor towers and Pylons hard-counter Nydus worms.
I actually think that Overlord Zergling and Infestor drops are also not in the meta, and may never be in it, since the reason to use them was because of the power of the Ghost. Now, you just make broodlord/infestor instead and kill the terran instead of whittling away at his bases and eventually trying to kill his ghost/tank 'deathball'.
Though, it might possibly be headed there anyway, with how slow both ravens and ghosts are.
EDIT: Spanishiwa actually did ultra/queen/nydus in a game on husky's channel a while ago.
Somewhere in this absolutely amazing post is a mini-guide on something called the 'Nydus Dance'. I highly recommend checking it out.
In almost all situations it's easier, cheaper and faster to just overlord drop. I think those two overlap two much.
Also nydus needing a tech building means it's too easy to counter. Once you know they have it, you just prepare for it. Perhaps if it didn't require the building, it would be perfect.
On March 01 2012 16:49 Berailfor wrote: I think people's reasoning early game is good, too expensive, easy to deny, too slow unloading. But lategame I have no fucking clue why zergs don't build them. Like lategame when you have 4 bases 8 geysers you can easily afford a couple nydii and not be affected almost at all. They have such good uses and are SOOOO scary. Think about that, lategame the potential of a nydus is huge. Go from base to base, always have the threat of being able to nydus your opponent. And if it fails sure it's a loss, so is a failed drop. But the potential is so much more than a drop, for the cost of 1 (or 2 if you include main building) muta you can send your whole army into their base if they are out of position and if they are, their options are total crap. A. Go defend just to see the Zerg retreat to base. Or B. Counter attack to have the Zerg do a ton of damage and be back to defend.
I think once zergs realize how valuable they can be and how scary in general they can be (forcing tons of edge buildings for vision etc) they will start using them more lategame when money isn't a big issue. Its such a cheap investment lategame for it's potential damage. And like other people said, for multiple-purpose uses like having more mobility around your side of the map or for rallied units if your pushing the enemy (while trying to sneak one in opponents main or 3rd )
Sorry, but what you are saying is completely absurd. It's never a cheap investment, unless you have your final army and some ressources left, but why make nydius when your army is made of broodlords ? . Nydus are only used for all ins or semi all-ins (like an hydra push), because they are so expensive that you must do damage. As long as they don't change the cost, there won't be any other use.
Let's say you use 2 nydus worm, it's just as expensive as a mothership with almost no hp, no damage output, no cloaking, no high ground vision, no vortex, mass recall only 1 units at a time and can't even choose the starting location of the recall.
@ everyone saying nydus unloads one at a time being problematic
Don't drops unload one at a time as well? It's just that they drop faster than Nyduses do, right? So wouldn't the problem be more or less the speed at which it unloads is slower than drops, or am I missing something?
On March 01 2012 16:07 Splynn wrote: I played zerg a bit towards the end of Beta and during the second season of ladder, and I used nydus pretty frequently. The one thing I came away with was that using it to sneak into someone's base is simply not a good idea. Way too unreliable.
Where it really shined was in base defense, sort of similar to how JD uses nydus in BW. Instead of taking a close third, I take the third on the other side of the map. With good vision I can see your army coming to kill it, and start unloading the nydus before you get there. If you undercommit, I kill the force and hop back into the nydus; you are behind. If you fully commit I either defend and win or retreat and rebuild the third, safe in the fact that your army is on the other side of the map.
Or popping it up behind your army as it advances; using it similar to how Protoss uses pylons in pushes. constantly teleporting speedlings across the map and leaning with them is pretty good. Or while pushing the third pop a nydus up pretty close to the second. I don't like these as much as defense, but it can certainly work. They're also pretty damn good for base races.
Why don't we see zerg doing these things? Because what zerg is doing right now is working pretty fine for them. Doing these things is more work than they need to do to win games. But as the game evolves these things might be more important to zerg strategy. And I wouldn't be opposed to a nydus hp buff; they die so easily...
Wouldn't units running over creep be faster than unloading a nydus? Unless you expanding to opposite corners on tal'darim or some shit. It just seems like everything nyduses do, drops or just moving units normally does better.
On March 01 2012 17:10 danielimotbh wrote: @ everyone saying nydus unloads one at a time being problematic
Don't drops unload one at a time as well? It's just that they drop faster than Nyduses do, right? So wouldn't the problem be more or less the speed at which it unloads is slower than drops, or am I missing something?
you are dropping from X Overlords at once. So you are unloading X units at once
On March 01 2012 17:10 danielimotbh wrote: @ everyone saying nydus unloads one at a time being problematic
Don't drops unload one at a time as well? It's just that they drop faster than Nyduses do, right? So wouldn't the problem be more or less the speed at which it unloads is slower than drops, or am I missing something?
With drops you can pick up and retreat if the defender reacted fast enough to prevent damage.
It's not ideal, but you can still try again later even if the defender is on his guard.
With a nydus, if you retreat, you loose your investment, and trying again is not really worth it, the changes of success are too low considering how much each attempt cost you.
Nydus network : 200 Gas Nydus Worms 150 Gas EACH Make a noise to let your opponent know Can easily be scouted and killed by workers Costs 350 gas for one worm Costs 350 gas for one worm Costs 350 gas for one worm Units come out one at a time when you unload Costs 350 gas for one worm.
On March 01 2012 17:10 danielimotbh wrote: @ everyone saying nydus unloads one at a time being problematic
Don't drops unload one at a time as well? It's just that they drop faster than Nyduses do, right? So wouldn't the problem be more or less the speed at which it unloads is slower than drops, or am I missing something?
you are dropping from X Overlords at once. So you are unloading X units at once
Hypothetically speaking then, what if your using 1 Overlord to drop, what would be the difference? Say an overlord full of infestors to harass the mineral line, or full of banelings (although you never really see 1 overlord full of banelings used to harass, but you get the point)
I mean, nydus does have its advantages which people are overlooking, right? - you don't lose your units if the drop fails - you can bring your units back if you need to pull out - you don't risk losing x amount of supply if somehow your drop goes horrendously wrong - if your investing into nydus worms anyway and you are actually going to have 2+ nyduses at a time for faster unit throughput, then chances are you'd do it because you have the economy to support it anyway - possible mind games?
So far I'd have to agree with the people who are saying that it's just an undiscovered tactic that will be used when the metagame changes, atleast thats what it seems like :/
@Elean: Thats understandable, some of it makes sense to me
On March 01 2012 16:49 Berailfor wrote: I think people's reasoning early game is good, too expensive, easy to deny, too slow unloading. But lategame I have no fucking clue why zergs don't build them. Like lategame when you have 4 bases 8 geysers you can easily afford a couple nydii and not be affected almost at all. They have such good uses and are SOOOO scary. Think about that, lategame the potential of a nydus is huge. Go from base to base, always have the threat of being able to nydus your opponent. And if it fails sure it's a loss, so is a failed drop. But the potential is so much more than a drop, for the cost of 1 (or 2 if you include main building) muta you can send your whole army into their base if they are out of position and if they are, their options are total crap. A. Go defend just to see the Zerg retreat to base. Or B. Counter attack to have the Zerg do a ton of damage and be back to defend.
I think once zergs realize how valuable they can be and how scary in general they can be (forcing tons of edge buildings for vision etc) they will start using them more lategame when money isn't a big issue. Its such a cheap investment lategame for it's potential damage. And like other people said, for multiple-purpose uses like having more mobility around your side of the map or for rallied units if your pushing the enemy (while trying to sneak one in opponents main or 3rd )
Sorry, but what you are saying is completely absurd. It's never a cheap investment, unless you have your final army and some ressources left, but why make nydius when your army is made of broodlords ? . Nydus are only used for all ins or semi all-ins (like an hydra push), because they are so expensive that you must do damage. As long as they don't change the cost, there won't be any other use.
Let's say you use 2 nydus worm, it's just as expensive as a mothership with almost no hp, no damage output, no cloaking, no high ground vision, no vortex, mass recall only 1 units at a time and can't even choose the starting location of the recall.
Okay first off.. You have to spread the cost of the initial building between every nydus you use meaning if you use 4 then each cost about 125/125. And second. A medivac is 100/100 you think it should be cheaper to spawn that that?!?! Your ridiculous. And lategame 2 Mutas or 1 broodlord is a ez trade for the potential damage. And have you used lategame nydus? Probably not. But thats a damn lot more ground to cover and a lot harder to deny. That combined with a good Zerg player who knows your army position could do a lot of damage and it isn't just a mass recall. It's a double mass recall if you want to put it like that. (with 1 nydus). Why you would use 2 besides from an allin I have no idea. Your just spouting random crap and you've never even tried it. Sorry but 2 Mutas isn't expensive at all lategame when you have 4 geysers. So back at you, what your saying (and comparing) is completely absurd.
Edit: okay didn't realize it was 200 gas just for network. That is pretty expensive. But still lategame it could totally be viable and the fact the more zergs don't use it really is dissapointing. There's many games where the Zerg is maxed and banking money. Why not just throw one down and see what it can do.
- You can bring units back with overlords. - You do lose your units if the drop fails...the nydus worm can be killed so easily and the units go back 1 by 1. - 300 Gas per nydus attack now? - you can't attack their main with a nydus worm because workers kill it.
Nydus really has to be used correctly to be worth it. Something like this:
Place it in vision of your enemy, but make sure, that he has to move out to kill it. Keep your army near it but out of vision. Scenario A: He moves out and tries to kill it. -> He just exposed a bunch of his units, allowing you to easily kill them. If he doesn't kill the Nydus, see scenario B. Scenario B: He calls your trap and let's it go up. -> You have super fast reinforcements, which allows you to put on a lot of pressure or even bust through his defenses.
Seriously. Why do people think that you have to hide it? Your enemies know how powerful a Nydus is. Letting one go up can unleash all kinds of pain, so just put it in plain view. Every time someone has to choose between letting one go up and get out of position he can only lose. Put players in those situations. And if they for some reason don't notice it, they are also screwed. I think once people finally start to see these situations the Nydus usage will increase. However, players are fine without it, so there really isn't a reason to use them, which imo is why the don't get used too much.
I think it loads and unloads way too slowly. Nydus would always be used late game if it was like the Brood War nydus (units go in and pop out instantly).
Terran drops your fifth and snipes the nydus before 5 lings are out even if you build 8 spine crawlers around it.
As cheese? It's pretty bad, but one of Zerg's few cheese options.
As lategame mobility and harass? I think it's massively underused. When your opponent hits a critical base count of about 4 or 5, it starts getting more and more difficult to maintain control over all those areas. Being able to put pressure on your opponent is something incredibly potent. It doesn't even have to be a serious commitment: just 10 supply of Zerglings at T3 is enough to require a large portion of your opponent's army to pull back. I imagine we'll be seeing them pop up more in the future.
Zergs need to learn to use them in defensive purposes to flank and break tanklines for example. Nydas worms are ridiculously underestimated especially lategame they can be used for zerg to defend 8bases at same time.
I used to think the SC2 nydus worm was superior to the BW one, but the cost, sound, and slow unloading are huge X's. Less HP also sucks.
At the very least, I think the nydus network should have a nydus canal ability that is cheaper and makes no sound but can be built on creep (and would stop working if there's no creep to prevent a hatchery-cancel-creep exploit).
I was always under the impression that it was just too risky. They are way too weak for their cost. They unload too slowly, you may as well just have a queen and spines as they wont die as fast. The risk vs. reward currently just isn't worth it and there are better options for offense and defense. It would be nice if Blizzard took a look at it more closely.
I sometimes use them to reinforce my main army if I'm setting up camp outside his base or denying a third or something. But if you're in that position, you're most likely in the lead and should be winning anyway. At best it saves a few seconds. The biggest issue I have with them is that you have to unload them each time a new unit enters the main one.
Let's say you're sitting comfortably on 4 bases on tal'darim altar, you use a nydus to reinforce your army somewhere nearby your enemy. Instead of rallying your units to your army, you rally them to the nydus network. And your hatcheries are at very different locations, some units will enter, you click unload, then the other units enter and you need to unload again. It's alot of APM "wasted" that you could've saved by simply rallying your units there.
You really need to unload as soon as possible, it's so easily sniped off and you've lost a ridiculous amount of time.
I just don't see the use of it at the moment, not a single game has it been the key factor to me winning, but then again, I'm probably not using it right and need to learn to play.
I will continue to use overlord drops, it's far more viable in my opinion.
A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base 2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp) 3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them 4. Profit..
I'd like to see it used more as a reinforcement point, behind your offensive army. Similar to a "JulyZerg" situation, where you're streaming units in, you just make the trip a lot shorter. But that's a very specific situation in comparison to current zerg lategame (being very broodlord/infestor intensive, a slow and steady army.)
The major problem to me is the way it is seen, as a sneak attack. The nydus network is an alternate rally system which has potential to do sneak attacks, but it's not all it is. Overlord drops are much more effective at that job. It's "cheaper" especially over long periods of time. Immune to workers and quieter.
The pointts here dont really mean that they cant be used for defence, to get to you expos quicker, also if nydus worms suck, why are overlord drops never use ever, so underused.
On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote: A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base 2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp) 3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them 4. Profit..
or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300.
nydus is hard to pull off. the low hp and kinda long build time makes it easy to cancel/kill, even for a few enemy workers. In addition to that nydus is best when it comes as a surprise, but sacrificing 300 gas early in the game is tough and a total waste if you do no damage. I sometimes use nydus when I play muta/ling and place a nydus in the enemy base while harrasing with mutas. But often this is just a gimmicky move and I feel I would have won most games without it.
edit: on top of all that: why the f... is that alarm sound necessary? it`s like "lol my zerg oponent just wasted 300 gas. let me defend and then counter ^________^ me likey"
On March 01 2012 18:40 CrtBalorda wrote: The pointts here dont really mean that they cant be used for defence, to get to you expos quicker, also if nydus worms suck, why are overlord drops never use ever, so underused.
They kinda do. Defence wise they're useless, because they're the first thing that an enemy will snipe on getting near your expo. Since they have low health, they are sniped quickly and because they unload one at a time, reinforcing your expo this way is suicide.
Maybe a pro one day will revolutionise nydus worms, but I don't think it'll be for a while. Their cost is similar to drops but unlike drops you can't hit multiple places at once. I feel one of two changes need to take place:
1. Be able to make multiple nydus heads from one main building. This may be way to OP though.
2. A nydus head starts at low health, but it's health gradually increases once it pops up to some maximum limit. This way they're still easy to kill for a player on the lookout, but can they can be used better defensively since you can place them at your expos long before the enemy arrives and the nydus has a chance to get up to its maximum health limit. They're harder to snipe in other words. I think this would also introduce an interesting gameplay element where the enemy is time constrained on killing the nydus, lest it become harder and harder to kill.
Nydus worms are fun but the only time they tend to work is against FFE and even then they really shouldn't, pretty much the same as proxy hatch in P's main
The simplest fix i can think of would be to give them building armour of 4 or 5 so that your enormous investment requires more than a handful of probes to kill. Cost and/ or build time on heads could also do with some scrutiny but I think nydus worms will remain a bit of a giggle/ cheese vs FFE for a while to come. Maybe HOTS will give them a revamp?
On March 01 2012 13:47 Torte de Lini wrote: Can't be canceled. Expensive to build. Expensive to make a Nydus. Obvious and limited use. units come out one at a time when you unload
this, blizz need to experiment with the amount of units that come out of it at a time
Because its trash, drops are also undersused, all of these moves besides raelly late game are way to risky, you risk to much. I never liked the idea of offensive Nydus, because its capable of being offensive the defensive atributes got nerfed(slow deploy, alarm), also drops cover kinda similar area (invading opponent base), kinda redundant.
On March 01 2012 18:59 KenZo- wrote: LiquidZenio used it about 30 minutes ago in code A against MVPsC. Used it to draw back Sc's units, then attacked at his fourth.
Yep. Actually worked out perfectly given SC's split was definitely wrong which left him very hurt in the next engagement. Nydus wurms may see play yet!
I think in lategame situations. where the opponent hasnt got any units in his main (like scvs etc) its paying off every time. Especially vs Terran. I hope to see it more often in the future (even though i will die to it most the time)
On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote: A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base 2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp) 3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them 4. Profit..
or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300.
And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes.
Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple.
They feel like the perfect way to get your Ultra's some more maneuverability and open up something that is not BL's in endgame... I can't say much because I don't play Zerg and not such a good player, but it feels like in late game you can just move so fast through multiple nydus worms that the opposing Terran/Protoss has barley enough time to move his big clumpy army from one nydus to the other.
Maybe if Blizzard reduced the gas cost by 50 or so.. they could nerf it back in a next patch, but maybe that would be the push that the community needs to start seriously considering using it.
I like the idea of Nydus being some sort of "forward Pylon" for zerg, having it as backup when you attack.
Also , Nydus are slown to unload, but very fast to load. I think they should be used whenever you commit to an atack ussing Ultralisks and/or infestors. If the attack goes well, you can easily keep the pressure with a fast rally from the nydus. And if the attack goes bad, you can at least try to save some Infestors/Ultralisk, which are slow-heavy gas units that you really dont want to lose. Just saving one of them makes the 100gas nydus worth it.
My honest answer? because players aren't any more creative than they absolutely have to be. For example, nydusing, and dropping, are both so fucking abuse against mech players. That doesn't mean they arent without risk, and i'm not saying that zerg are bad for not using them. But as long as zerg can sort of get by with this roach/infestor/broodlord o fuck transition to ultras when they overmake vikings thing, that's what zerg are going to do.
Btw the nydus network is not 100/100 it's 150/200, not couting the worm itself. Which makes it not really viable in the midgame, 250 minerals and 300 (!) gas for potientally nothing if he has good vision of his base is huge. Could be used more in the lategame though, especially in ZvT where you'll have a lot of minerals and cracklings.
The only situation in which I see great value in the Nydus worm is with certain compositions and positions in the game like:
-Being maxed with a bank of resources and larvae ready for a remax or reinforcements -When not at the Broodlord/Infestor stage
This is pretty limited but the situations I can think of from the top of my head are..
ZvP -Roach/Hydra maxed push versus a defensive protoss to force them to trade units. It is easier to reinforce this push if you use a forward nydus to rally your units into, and have your Creep spread Queen pop out and spread creep at the forward Nydus. This will be a way to make your trade that much more lethal and cost-efficient since it doesn't take 30-40 seconds for your hydras to move across the map. Obviously this is not as efficient on maps with great choke positions to use force fields in. (Think Antiga with good positioning from the Protoss)
ZvT -Late game bank with an investment into Ultralisks + infestor/ling/bling. (since ultralisk are only worth something with infestor support, aka no stim kiting and cleave miss, and even then...ultra lol) Same situation as in ZvP.
So basically it's extremely limited in forwarding heavy attacks to force trades with turtling players on large maps like TDA or Daybreak.
As for nydus attacks into enemy bases, I think it's just not worth it at all against a good player. Hopefully I will see someone prove me wrong but at the moment it's an extremely niche option imo.
On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote: A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base 2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp) 3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them 4. Profit..
or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300.
And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes.
Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple.
what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus.
In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs)
On March 01 2012 13:47 Torte de Lini wrote: Can't be canceled. Expensive to build. Expensive to make a Nydus. Obvious and limited use. units come out one at a time when you unload
if it doesn't require gas it isnt that expensive right?
On March 01 2012 13:47 Torte de Lini wrote: Can't be canceled. Expensive to build. Expensive to make a Nydus. Obvious and limited use. units come out one at a time when you unload
if it doesn't require gas it isnt that expensive right?
Well, if Blizz removed the gas price it would obviously be cheaper - but depending on the situation (e.g. 2base roach/ling nydus) it can still be alot of money to throw into the nydus, where you could easilly "just" get overlord speed and drops. Torte de Lini is right about the primary issue being unloading in time. Unless you nydus outside his base a protoss will be able to blink/warp units so fast, they will often kill units popping out - and the same with terran since you would most likely come up close to his production.
At the moment I just see drops as a far stronger option. The only real reason to go nydus is if you wanna force an awkward base trade. You can demolish your opponents base while he's marching across the map. If he comes back you can fight/go hide in nydus... If he reaches your base - you can go back and defend while having destroyed alot of his structures.
We actually do see nydus worms in pro games vs protoss mostly. It doesn't make sense vs terran or zerg unless its cheesy or its muta/ling vs hydra/roach/infestor. It's used specifically for the hydra/ling all-in though.
Nydus worm as an invasion in to your opponent's base is a strategy that requires your opponent to make a mistake, since the worm can be killed with workers alone. As a reinforcing strat you see it against fast expanding toss for hydras, but 100 gas for a structure that gets killed by workers before a single unit gets out, it's just not worth it as a base invasion method.
On March 01 2012 19:58 acrimoneyius wrote: We actually do see nydus worms in pro games vs protoss mostly. It doesn't make sense vs terran or zerg unless its cheesy or its muta/ling vs hydra/roach/infestor. It's used specifically for the hydra/ling all-in though.
Oh and by the way, did we fucking mention that a "sneak trick", YELLS WHEN IT POPS. I sure want medivacs to SCREAAAM when they drop, seriously, how dumb is that? Am i the only one seing it or?
On March 01 2012 19:58 acrimoneyius wrote: We actually do see nydus worms in pro games vs protoss mostly. It doesn't make sense vs terran or zerg unless its cheesy or its muta/ling vs hydra/roach/infestor. It's used specifically for the hydra/ling all-in though.
Recent example of this?
It's been done alot in Korea (not sure if i've seen it as much in foreign tourneys) LosirA and Zenio do it from time to time. LosirA did it against MC at MLG Colombus (I know that's a while ago) but I've seen it in GSL / GSTL matches recently but don't remember specific games.
On March 01 2012 19:58 acrimoneyius wrote: We actually do see nydus worms in pro games vs protoss mostly. It doesn't make sense vs terran or zerg unless its cheesy or its muta/ling vs hydra/roach/infestor. It's used specifically for the hydra/ling all-in though.
Recent example of this?
It's been done alot in Korea (not sure if i've seen it as much in foreign tourneys) LosirA and Zenio do it from time to time. LosirA did it against MC at MLG Colombus (I know that's a while ago) but I've seen it in GSL / GSTL matches recently but don't remember specific games.
Leenock vs Seed on Crossfire and it failed horribly. Seed just scouted the Nydus in the main and then watched for the Nydus attempt at his front and killed it.
I think if they redesigned them to be a little bit tougher and build a little bit faster, they'd be used more. At the highest levels, it's hard to get a Nydus worm by someone into their main, but even trying to use them as a forward operating position can be tough since someone who is constantly scouting could kill them before they build.
people see failed nydus rush and then think "OMG ITS SHIT! BLIXZ PLX BUFF!". but wtf it's such a risky strategy... it's like a nuke rush.
i think nydus and nukes are both similar and insanely powerful late game abilities which are insanely underused when you start banking big resources in the 'end game' situation...
they are comparable... both cost 100/100 no supply, potential to cause insane damage, both issue a warning to other player and cause that 'nuke/nydus hunt' moment, both can be used simultaneously given additional ghost academy/networks.
if a mech terran is turtling hardcore in the middle of shakuras, what is stopping you using changlings, burrowed roach/infestor or overlord to grant vision in 2-3 locations and using a nydus in all places simultaneously?
the only thing that must be considered is that if nydus worm is sniped then zerg will probably a chunk of his army for almost nothing - so you have to consider retreating through the worm earlier or open additional worms to give alternative escape paths.
i scream nydus every time i see a zerg go against a meching terran with like 20 siege tanks and 4 planetary fortresses on metropolis... the zerg usually takes the map and just continually makes broodlord or ultra and a-moves into the terran siege line like a retard shouting "ZOMG LOOK BLIZX TERRAN IMBA I CANT WIN WITH AMOVE EVEN THOUGH I HAVE 2 MORE BASES!".
On March 01 2012 13:33 Tristran wrote: I believe the main Nydus building is 100/100 and the cost to spawn an additional Worm is a further 100/100. The minerals are nothing but 100 gas can be a bit painful to spend for a 'maybe' situation like the defensive reasons. Yet 200 gas spent is better than a loss to a Forcefield drop in your main, or a well positioned tank line.
The main building is 150/200 and a nydus worm is 100/100. That's at a time when you want to spend your gas on units and upgrades.
Now late game, you're usually aiming for a Broodlord/Infestor army, which doesn't benefit at all from Nydus.
I remember the IGN casters discussing this a bit a while back, comparing it to nuke. They said if they got rid of the silly sound, it would probably be utilized more. Or at least be something for the opponent to always be on the lookout for.
I have a feeling that eventually Zergs will use it defensively in the late game to bounce between faraway bases, like it was done occasionally in BW, except more expensive.
Frankly I think it would make WAY more sense (both in terms of in-universe credibility and in terms of balance) if it worked like a nuke. Same build time, the opponent would be able to spot it (or, better yet, their "systems" would "estimate" where the nydus will pop up, with a message or sound like "underground movement detected"), but it would only be killable after it come out of the ground.
On March 01 2012 19:58 acrimoneyius wrote: We actually do see nydus worms in pro games vs protoss mostly. It doesn't make sense vs terran or zerg unless its cheesy or its muta/ling vs hydra/roach/infestor. It's used specifically for the hydra/ling all-in though.
Recent example of this?
It's been done alot in Korea (not sure if i've seen it as much in foreign tourneys) LosirA and Zenio do it from time to time. LosirA did it against MC at MLG Colombus (I know that's a while ago) but I've seen it in GSL / GSTL matches recently but don't remember specific games.
Leenock vs Seed on Crossfire and it failed horribly. Seed just scouted the Nydus in the main and then watched for the Nydus attempt at his front and killed it.
I feel like it's a mix between the scream and the fact it unloads one unit at a time. Because as soon as the scream comes, the enemy will start looking in their base. If they removed the scream it would be fine with 1 unit / time, just like drops unload in the fog of war in the back of your base.
Overlord drops are better overall, when you've researched the tech, you don't need to invest any more into it. Unlike Nydus where each worm costs a lot.
Can see being used vs terran mech lategame effectively, otherwise it's just a cheese that rarely has a use. (It's like PvP where one protoss is able to put a pylon in the main of the other and then decide to 4gate.)
I've used nydus quite a few times where it's really worked wonders for me. Traveling from one side of the map to the other, only having to deal with the unit loading time traveling, it's pretty awesome to smash roaches around the map making sweet counters and generally being cost efficient with the roaches. I love the unit and so glad we got it
On March 01 2012 21:14 Sbrubbles wrote: I have a feeling that eventually Zergs will use it defensively in the late game to bounce between faraway bases, like it was done occasionally in BW, except more expensive.
Frankly I think it would make WAY more sense (both in terms of in-universe credibility and in terms of balance) if it worked like a nuke. Same build time, the opponent would be able to spot it (or, better yet, their "systems" would "estimate" where the nydus will pop up, with a message or sound like "underground movement detected"), but it would only be killable after it come out of the ground.
If BLs could go to Nydus i would agree with you, but alas its not possible.
There is really no comparison to BW, nydus in BW is a must, because at some points in time you have only 1/2 supply you have in star2 at that point, in sc2 when multiple harass starts to happen you already have big enough army to send a chunks of it to defend it, zerg is generally up in supply (not down in supply like in BW), against like double-triple drop harassment in sc2 nydus wouldnt help you, hatchery or even nydus would be dead way to fast for you to even react. If you spot the drop 10 sec before it happens i can assure you zerglings should be already close to intercepting it, without need to spend 300gas for a risky defense. So overlord spread and fast reaction time ftw. Nydus is inferior defense, and way more risky than in BW (no high ground lurkers as buffer, no swarm)
I agree that Nydus could be used as flanking tool, theoretically if your opponent went into middle turtle army and cut your entrance than of course. But then again he will be aware of it if hes smart...
On March 01 2012 21:28 DrPandaPhD wrote: I feel like it's a mix between the scream and the fact it unloads one unit at a time. Because as soon as the scream comes, the enemy will start looking in their base. If they removed the scream it would be fine with 1 unit / time, just like drops unload in the fog of war in the back of your base.
Overlord drops are better overall, when you've researched the tech, you don't need to invest any more into it. Unlike Nydus where each worm costs a lot.
Can see being used vs terran mech lategame effectively, otherwise it's just a cheese that rarely has a use. (It's like PvP where one protoss is able to put a pylon in the main of the other and then decide to 4gate.)
I dissagree with the first part. The problem isn't the scream, but the fact that a player with good building placement will see the nydus before it pops and will be able to kill it just by sending a few workers. It's just way too reliant on surprise.
Still, I agree the unloading time is way too slow ... they could at least make it faster for smaller units (slings and blings).
On March 01 2012 21:47 Zeon0 wrote: i hate people who open threads like this and dont get the facts right. its 150/200 for the network, not 100/100. but whats 100 gas right?
As I put in the OP edit, I don't play Zerg so I dont have building costs memorised, I looked it up on wiki and accidentally put the cost of the Worm rather than the network. Not that it changes the discussion all that much.
Most of the time it's a waste of gas. Some games it can be useful and great, sure, but it's pretty situational. Most often your opponent can easily spot it and stop it and then when you actually do manage to get the Nydus off it's not like you're guarenteed to do any damage either, if they still respond in time you will just be funneling units out to die and it's going to cost you even more than just the Nydus.
So like, yeah Nydus can be great if your opponent has bad map awareness and if your opponent's army is out of position but otherwise it's a waste of time, I'd rather just drop, it's far far cheaper and you're almost always guarenteed to be able to do damage and you can also more easily limit how many units you want to commit to it.
IMO the Nydus Worm works better for wacky type of plays like, say I'm doing a big Broodlord push and I use Nudus to bring 10 Queens out to the field and cover my Broodlords, that kinda thing.
Probably becouse there are no Lurkers and Defiliers to hold ground till more unit arrives. I dont think so that unloading units one by one is such a bad design, just there isn't anything actually worth unloading
1. Move to Hive 2. make it very cheap (i would say halve gas cost) 3. make it just a little bit more durable. (5 probes should not kill a nydus ever)
you have a bw Nydus that can also be used offensively and since it so cheap will replace zerg walking with zerg nydusing. Ultralisks can then say haters gonna hate and get unloaded whereever they want and stop loosing games for zerg.
i still think people are thinking about it wrong.... it should not be compared to dropship - it should be compared to nuking.
making it cheaper just so people use it more often would be gamebreaking, like making nuke cheaper or making the ghost more hardy when deploying a nuke.
imo it's job is to break a stalemate situation. it's difficult to nydus when opponent denies vision, but it's hard to nuke when opponent has detection all over the place as well - yet nuking is still amazing at breaking stalemates.
most zerg just attack repeatedly until they win or lose, if they set up for a stalemate then nydus would come into play.
nestea says 100 gas is a waste of gas? well 40 banelings, infestors and ultras dying to a tank line is a waste of gas as well. his quote is so out of context. nydus has a role, it's just doesn't fit in the current metagame.
Waste of minerals Waste of gas It's a coinflip if you use it offensivly because it dies so fast if you opponent notice it Slow load and unload You have no use of it late game do defend bases because you have creep.
Hasn't there already been a million threads on this topic? The Nydus is a really cool unit, but it has plenty of limitations. Such as its slow build time, how easy it is to kill, it can't be canceled, unloading takes a while. But they are still pretty cool and useful.
On March 01 2012 22:35 shizna wrote: i still think people are thinking about it wrong.... it should not be compared to dropship - it should be compared to nuking.
making it cheaper just so people use it more often would be gamebreaking, like making nuke cheaper or making the ghost more hardy when deploying a nuke.
imo it's job is to break a stalemate situation. it's difficult to nydus when opponent denies vision, but it's hard to nuke when opponent has detection all over the place as well - yet nuking is still amazing at breaking stalemates.
most zerg just attack repeatedly until they win or lose, if they set up for a stalemate then nydus would come into play.
Yeah, Nydus has good use at that stage. But I'm not sure if the downside of playing this strategy does not outweigth the potential of nydussing everywhere in such stalemates: You are basically giving up on the idea of building an army that can fight your opponents endgame army directly, but go for something along the lines of lings/Ultras/roaches/hydras basetrade instead. (depending on what you were teching to)
Not sure though, haven't seen it a lot of times, nor used it a lot of times in such situations, and the times I used it like this, it felt like I was trading expensive ultras and nydus-ressources vs buildings. I'm pretty torn on that... I have tried it, and it leads to impressive shortterm results (stomping a base for the cost of some units/ressources), but usually ends with my opponent rolling over my ultrabased army (that's how I think it works best, due to ultras being good vs buildings and easy to load and unload).
On March 01 2012 22:57 TheLOLas wrote: Hasn't there already been a million threads on this topic? The Nydus is a really cool unit, but it has plenty of limitations. Such as its slow build time, how easy it is to kill, it can't be canceled, unloading takes a while. But they are still pretty cool and useful.
Maybe if they increase the amount of worms that could spawn. Currently it's for every network, 1 worm can spawn at a time.
I'm sure it has been posted before, but having 6-8 workers pull off a mineral line isn't a great transaction if you were actually intending on doing something with a nydus. 6-8 workers off the mineral line is all it takes to kill it. Didn't read through the entire thread, so sorry for posting something stupid. With good creep spread, there is also less use for the nydus, take into consideration the ridic time it takes to load units and then unload them. I main zerg. It's pretty fucking stupid long. Might as well run shit from one side of the map to the other.
On March 01 2012 22:35 shizna wrote: i still think people are thinking about it wrong.... it should not be compared to dropship - it should be compared to nuking.
making it cheaper just so people use it more often would be gamebreaking, like making nuke cheaper or making the ghost more hardy when deploying a nuke.
imo it's job is to break a stalemate situation. it's difficult to nydus when opponent denies vision, but it's hard to nuke when opponent has detection all over the place as well - yet nuking is still amazing at breaking stalemates.
most zerg just attack repeatedly until they win or lose, if they set up for a stalemate then nydus would come into play.
Yeah, Nydus has good use at that stage. But I'm not sure if the downside of playing this strategy does not outweigth the potential of nydussing everywhere in such stalemates: You are basically giving up on the idea of building an army that can fight your opponents endgame army directly, but go for something along the lines of lings/Ultras/roaches/hydras basetrade instead. (depending on what you were teching to)
Not sure though, haven't seen it a lot of times, nor used it a lot of times in such situations, and the times I used it like this, it felt like I was trading expensive ultras and nydus-ressources vs buildings. I'm pretty torn on that... I have tried it, and it leads to impressive shortterm results (stomping a base for the cost of some units/ressources), but usually ends with my opponent rolling over my ultrabased army (that's how I think it works best, due to ultras being good vs buildings and easy to load and unload).
well i always thought the intended situation was that a fortified terran army cannot be beaten head-on.
yet most zerg players still think "i need lotsa broodlords and infestors and then a-move, cos i watched GSL and thats how you win!".
no, it's never preferable to attack into someone's defensive position.... you should only do it when you're forced to, for example you're contained and don't have time to drop/harrass etc.
okay most maps are zerg friendly because you can flank easily enough that you don't need nydus... but on maps like metropolis, antiga and shakuras that zergs are constantly crying about - imagine the end game nydus potential against a turtle style... the super defensive map layout makes it even more difficult to defend nydus as well.
you just need to increase the number of simultaneous nydus to 2-3, in seperate locations, then you massively increase the chance of success.
you don't even need to commit ultralisks to a nydus... cracklings have higher dps for cost/supply than stimmed marines. plus the idea is that you retreat before your units die anyway. alike any harrass technique, if the opponent reacts well to it then get your units the F out of there before they all die...
there's no such thing as zerg 'swarm' in SC2. if zerg loses units then he'll probably lose the game to an immediate counter attack.
That doesn't make them more useful, lol. It just makes the building itself not make any sense at all. These aren't sc:bw maps we're playing. The nydus distance isn't great on any 1:! map if the z has creep spread. It's just really not worth consideration.
On March 01 2012 23:24 Batssa wrote: That doesn't make them more useful, lol. It just makes the building itself not make any sense at all. These aren't sc:bw maps we're playing. The nydus distance isn't great on any 1:! map if the z has creep spread. It's just really not worth consideration.
Yes it is. It can be used for defensive purposes as well as late game harass and it gives the zerg the ability to rally reinforcements quicker if placed well (much like warp in reinforcements with a pylon).
Ugh... the nydus pushes out units like a dropship, not like a warp in. That would be sick and fucking awesome if it were the case. Push units into the nydus (if you can luckily get it up in a decent position) and shit out the units immediately before it dies (mind you, late game alot of shit goes on, a medivac dropping four marines at a defensive nydus location -- which you seem to believe exists -- would be very easy). Unfortunately, that's not how it works =(.
lol there really is no good excuse of not using it lategame, having one ready is simply awesome, if you do manage to get a successful nydus worm and a few zerglings in you can do massive damage to the production, for the cost of what? 100 min 100 gas?
That's nothing really, as long as you don't keep spamming it in hope that your opponent will fall for the same trick 5 times (which is when it becomes bad).
The problem with "defensive" or "utility" Nydus Worms is that Lings are already so very fast on creep that you can have them pretty much anywhere on your creep in seconds, having them rally in and out of a Nydus wouldn't change that time by a significant amount. The only reason I would warrant Nydus on your own creep is if you had a very slow ground army, which just doesn't happen with Zerg unless you're maxed on Roaches/Ultras.
- blob on minimap while building - screams when completed
it should be:
- no blob on minimap until completed - screams when building
therefore the opponent will hear a scream and then has to urgently look around his base for the churning displaced dirt without the aid of minimap.
i believe blizzard's original design is flawed... it's meant to be stealthy in that you place it in the corner of someone's base where they don't have vision so they can't see it on the minimap... but this almost never happens outside noob leagues because almost everyone positions creep, overlords, supply depots, pylons or something to grant vision in their base ALREADY because it's universally useful against pretty much every kind of harrass - drops, pylons, blink, nydus etc.
On March 01 2012 23:34 shizna wrote: i think a cool change would be instead of the:
- blob on minimap while building - screams when completed
it should be:
- no blob on minimap until completed - screams when building
therefore the opponent will hear a scream and then has to urgently look around his base for the churning dirt without the aid of minimap.
i believe blizzard's original design is flawed... it's meant to be stealthy in that you place it in the corner of someone's base where they don't have vision so they can't see it on the minimap... but this almost never happens outside noob leagues because almost everyone positions creep, overlords, supply depots, pylons or something to grant vision in their base ALREADY because it's universally useful against pretty much every kind of harrass - drops, pylons, blink, nydus etc.
No thats against what starcraft gameplay is, the scream is controversial not blob. Its like saying you shouldnt see medivac on minimap unless it unloads.
People think nydus should be something like "I use it on top of my opponents army/base and get whole army in it and eventually win game, otherwise this nydus thing is bullshit and useless", sadly nydus isnt supposed to be used like that which many people fail to realise.
Nydus was dying fast in BW as well and was used A LOT for connecting bases and now you have option to use it on offensive positions and in your opponents base and people whine that it got too low hp and is too much of a cost to build in the first place.
Again, Nydus was created for connecting bases on big maps and 2 base allins that we already saw A LOT of times in ZvP, we saw it in ZvZ as well few times and in ZvT (EVEN in GSL).
People suggesting that it should have MORE hp, what is protoss supposed to do after forge FE vs nydus? kill it with what except probes?
The mechanic needs changing I'd much rather see a faster spawn rate then a cheaper nydus. Starcraft 2 has a much more streamlined UI so the reaction time from most players is almost instantaneous making the payout for nydus almost never worth it offensively. Defensively it serves very little purpose because of how mobile a zergs army has to be causing the bottleneck to be the nydus. If my units could jump INTO and OUT OF the nydus much quicker I would definitely put it into practice.
I use nydus in late game a lot, defensively to move drones and slow units and such.... They used nydus canals in BW a lot to connect far away bases and it was pretty good. Like a lot when I play against mech I lose cause I don't build nydus and the terran can harass far away bases with ninja hellion runbys while doom slowpushing (this is especially annoying on TDA when you're in the spawn positions where terran can hit your natural), then he kills a whole base worth of drones with 2 hellions since my army is trying to kill his.
Instead of losing all your drones, hide them in the nydus and pop them out on the other side of the map, insta-start mining again. Put 3 roaches in the worm at your base and unload them at your expansion that's being harassed. No drones killed, harass deflected ezpz.
The people who are saying that nydus should be "I put army in opponents base then he gg roflmao" are just bad and wrong. You can punish protosses who are trying to expand too aggressively with mobile armies like muta ling harass and drops and nydus roaches into his main while pressuring his third with muta ling, but it's not supposed to be this insta-kill move lol. People underestimate how unbelievably useful it is to be able to ferry units between your expansions with virtually zero transit time.
On March 01 2012 23:44 Sc2Corpse wrote: Under used? I have Zergs use them all the time on me as cheese tactics, if anything they are overused.
I'm sorry you're just wrong. This thread is meant to discuss the legitimate uses of nydus, ie. not allins or cheeses. Also I have a hard time believing zergs actually use nydus to cheese, that's just a terrible cheese...
On March 01 2012 22:35 shizna wrote: i still think people are thinking about it wrong.... it should not be compared to dropship - it should be compared to nuking.
making it cheaper just so people use it more often would be gamebreaking, like making nuke cheaper or making the ghost more hardy when deploying a nuke.
imo it's job is to break a stalemate situation. it's difficult to nydus when opponent denies vision, but it's hard to nuke when opponent has detection all over the place as well - yet nuking is still amazing at breaking stalemates.
most zerg just attack repeatedly until they win or lose, if they set up for a stalemate then nydus would come into play.
Yeah, Nydus has good use at that stage. But I'm not sure if the downside of playing this strategy does not outweigth the potential of nydussing everywhere in such stalemates: You are basically giving up on the idea of building an army that can fight your opponents endgame army directly, but go for something along the lines of lings/Ultras/roaches/hydras basetrade instead. (depending on what you were teching to)
Not sure though, haven't seen it a lot of times, nor used it a lot of times in such situations, and the times I used it like this, it felt like I was trading expensive ultras and nydus-ressources vs buildings. I'm pretty torn on that... I have tried it, and it leads to impressive shortterm results (stomping a base for the cost of some units/ressources), but usually ends with my opponent rolling over my ultrabased army (that's how I think it works best, due to ultras being good vs buildings and easy to load and unload).
well i always thought the intended situation was that a fortified terran army cannot be beaten head-on.
yet most zerg players still think "i need lotsa broodlords and infestors and then a-move, cos i watched GSL and thats how you win!".
no, it's never preferable to attack into someone's defensive position.... you should only do it when you're forced to, for example you're contained and don't have time to drop/harrass etc.
okay most maps are zerg friendly because you can flank easily enough that you don't need nydus... but on maps like metropolis, antiga and shakuras that zergs are constantly crying about - imagine the end game nydus potential against a turtle style... the super defensive map layout makes it even more difficult to defend nydus as well.
you just need to increase the number of simultaneous nydus to 2-3, in seperate locations, then you massively increase the chance of success.
you don't even need to commit ultralisks to a nydus... cracklings have higher dps for cost/supply than stimmed marines. plus the idea is that you retreat before your units die anyway. alike any harrass technique, if the opponent reacts well to it then get your units the F out of there before they all die...
there's no such thing as zerg 'swarm' in SC2. if zerg loses units then he'll probably lose the game to an immediate counter attack.
sry, but why would it be intented that Terran max cannot be beaten head on? I mean, it was not even like that in BW and fortified Terran was probably more scary there and stalemate balance probably not as important as in SC2. Especially, as the usual endgame army of Zerg is designed around the broodlord, which is meant to be a position (tank) breaking unit. Add Vikings and Infestors and whatever you think is best in such scenarios and you got yourself a nice micro match with the defending player having a good advantage due to how siege tanks work (13range, but have to unsiege).
About maps... there are winrate numbers for each map, which is as good as we can determine balance for them. If they are off, the map should be considered favored, if not, then the map is definatly not something like "zergfriendly". Though on second thought, I agree... Terran has >50% winrate vs Zerg, making any map that is >50% for Zerg "zergfriendly", while the racial balancing seems generally "terranfriendly". Though on 3rd thought, I think we shouldn't complain about +/- 5% imbalance at all... But well... Just because Antiga, Shakuras etc disfavor certain styles, it doesn't really make Nydus stronger.
Cracklings problem with nydus is unloading and loading the nydus again. A Nydus still only loads up 4cracklings per second (unloads 2 per second), which makes retreating close to impossible. You need like 4nydus worms in one location. Also not losing anything when nydusing is a nice thought, but it's just not doable, just like losing nothing when droping or harassing with air is undoable. The best way to minimize the losses with Nydus is the use of more worms and big units, which brings me back to: you should go ultra with it.
On March 01 2012 22:35 shizna wrote: i still think people are thinking about it wrong.... it should not be compared to dropship - it should be compared to nuking.
making it cheaper just so people use it more often would be gamebreaking, like making nuke cheaper or making the ghost more hardy when deploying a nuke.
imo it's job is to break a stalemate situation. it's difficult to nydus when opponent denies vision, but it's hard to nuke when opponent has detection all over the place as well - yet nuking is still amazing at breaking stalemates.
most zerg just attack repeatedly until they win or lose, if they set up for a stalemate then nydus would come into play.
Yeah, Nydus has good use at that stage. But I'm not sure if the downside of playing this strategy does not outweigth the potential of nydussing everywhere in such stalemates: You are basically giving up on the idea of building an army that can fight your opponents endgame army directly, but go for something along the lines of lings/Ultras/roaches/hydras basetrade instead. (depending on what you were teching to)
Not sure though, haven't seen it a lot of times, nor used it a lot of times in such situations, and the times I used it like this, it felt like I was trading expensive ultras and nydus-ressources vs buildings. I'm pretty torn on that... I have tried it, and it leads to impressive shortterm results (stomping a base for the cost of some units/ressources), but usually ends with my opponent rolling over my ultrabased army (that's how I think it works best, due to ultras being good vs buildings and easy to load and unload).
well i always thought the intended situation was that a fortified terran army cannot be beaten head-on.
yet most zerg players still think "i need lotsa broodlords and infestors and then a-move, cos i watched GSL and thats how you win!".
no, it's never preferable to attack into someone's defensive position.... you should only do it when you're forced to, for example you're contained and don't have time to drop/harrass etc.
okay most maps are zerg friendly because you can flank easily enough that you don't need nydus... but on maps like metropolis, antiga and shakuras that zergs are constantly crying about - imagine the end game nydus potential against a turtle style... the super defensive map layout makes it even more difficult to defend nydus as well.
you just need to increase the number of simultaneous nydus to 2-3, in seperate locations, then you massively increase the chance of success.
you don't even need to commit ultralisks to a nydus... cracklings have higher dps for cost/supply than stimmed marines. plus the idea is that you retreat before your units die anyway. alike any harrass technique, if the opponent reacts well to it then get your units the F out of there before they all die...
there's no such thing as zerg 'swarm' in SC2. if zerg loses units then he'll probably lose the game to an immediate counter attack.
sry, but why would it be intented that Terran max cannot be beaten head on? I mean, it was not even like that in BW and fortified Terran was probably more scary there and stalemate balance probably not as important as in SC2. Especially, as the usual endgame army of Zerg is designed around the broodlord, which is meant to be a position (tank) breaking unit. Add Vikings and Infestors and whatever you think is best in such scenarios and you got yourself a nice micro match with the defending player having a good advantage due to how siege tanks work (13range, but have to unsiege).
About maps... there are winrate numbers for each map, which is as good as we can determine balance for them. If they are off, the map should be considered favored, if not, then the map is definatly not something like "zergfriendly". Though on second thought, I agree... Terran has >50% winrate vs Zerg, making any map that is >50% for Zerg "zergfriendly", while the racial balancing seems generally "terranfriendly". Though on 3rd thought, I think we shouldn't complain about +/- 5% imbalance at all... But well... Just because Antiga, Shakuras etc disfavor certain styles, it doesn't really make Nydus stronger.
Cracklings problem with nydus is unloading and loading the nydus again. A Nydus still only loads up 4cracklings per second (unloads 2 per second), which makes retreating close to impossible. You need like 4nydus worms in one location. Also not losing anything when nydusing is a nice thought, but it's just not doable, just like losing nothing when droping or harassing with air is undoable. The best way to minimize the losses with Nydus is the use of more worms and big units, which brings me back to: you should go ultra with it.
Yeah this is the biggest problem with nydus worming as a method for multipronged attacks, they unload SO slowly, so you've gotta be on top of when you're using them for transport. Gotta go ultra/queen for the ones in his main, and that's assuming the other guy actually lets it finish.
On March 01 2012 23:43 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: People think nydus should be something like "I use it on top of my opponents army/base and get whole army in it and eventually win game, otherwise this nydus thing is bullshit and useless", sadly nydus isnt supposed to be used like that which many people fail to realise.
Nydus was dying fast in BW as well and was used A LOT for connecting bases and now you have option to use it on offensive positions and in your opponents base and people whine that it got too low hp and is too much of a cost to build in the first place.
Again, Nydus was created for connecting bases on big maps and 2 base allins that we already saw A LOT of times in ZvP, we saw it in ZvZ as well few times and in ZvT (EVEN in GSL).
People suggesting that it should have MORE hp, what is protoss supposed to do after forge FE vs nydus? kill it with what except probes?
If protoss has nothing but probes when a nydus comes out,even after FFE, what in the fuck has he been doing? It's faster to move everything but hydras normally from base to base normally unless you are being attacked in which case the nydus is even more of a hinderance and as zerg you're probably gonna sac the base anyway. The point about them dying to quickly is that after the noise tells your opponent a nydus has gone off you can kill it with about 6 probes before it pops.
On March 01 2012 23:43 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: People think nydus should be something like "I use it on top of my opponents army/base and get whole army in it and eventually win game, otherwise this nydus thing is bullshit and useless", sadly nydus isnt supposed to be used like that which many people fail to realise.
Nydus was dying fast in BW as well and was used A LOT for connecting bases and now you have option to use it on offensive positions and in your opponents base and people whine that it got too low hp and is too much of a cost to build in the first place.
Again, Nydus was created for connecting bases on big maps and 2 base allins that we already saw A LOT of times in ZvP, we saw it in ZvZ as well few times and in ZvT (EVEN in GSL).
People suggesting that it should have MORE hp, what is protoss supposed to do after forge FE vs nydus? kill it with what except probes?
in BW a Nydus didn't cost any gas, also it had a fixed entry and exit point (so no unloading micro while you are in battle, just rally to the nydus and they will pop up automatically on the other side). If i have to spend 300+ gas early-mid game just to connect bases, it is usually not worth it: a) if my opponent does not find any nydus in his base he will automatically know that i took a base that is somewhat harder to defend (island expo, or expo on his side) b) i could just creep spread there for the same effect
late-game, i don't know either. I rather spend 200 gas on drops and can backstabb all i want all game long, even when i want to backstabb a base that has worker mining (which is often times not possible with nydus lol). And i rather lose 2 overlords on each drop than a nydus which costs a ton of gas. Plus, overlord drop gives me baneling drop options (can be used offensive) plus the base retreat option (load in drones and get away), and i will at most lose some minerals doing it, not my precious gas.
As for the nydus cheese with hydras (+roaches/lings): Usually my opponent will notice the nydus in his base, therefore i can only nydus again in front of his base (and pretty much lose all the time from this point on). If i spend those 300/300 on OL speed and dropship, i will make a creep highway for my hydras if necessary, and i am sure to get my hydras into his base. Also it saves 100/100 compared to the nydus variant where i have to use another nydus outside his base. As for the few-units vs all-army unload: with overlords i just elevator my army up. It is fairly quick and once i attack i can drop my units on top of my enemy (which is priceless vs protoss forcefield/building blocks/colossus)
On March 01 2012 23:34 shizna wrote: i think a cool change would be instead of the:
- blob on minimap while building - screams when completed
it should be:
- no blob on minimap until completed - screams when building
therefore the opponent will hear a scream and then has to urgently look around his base for the churning dirt without the aid of minimap.
i believe blizzard's original design is flawed... it's meant to be stealthy in that you place it in the corner of someone's base where they don't have vision so they can't see it on the minimap... but this almost never happens outside noob leagues because almost everyone positions creep, overlords, supply depots, pylons or something to grant vision in their base ALREADY because it's universally useful against pretty much every kind of harrass - drops, pylons, blink, nydus etc.
No thats against what starcraft gameplay is, the scream is controversial not blob. Its like saying you shouldnt see medivac on minimap unless it unloads.
no blob can easily be reasoned by the fact that its burrowed.
On March 01 2012 23:43 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: People think nydus should be something like "I use it on top of my opponents army/base and get whole army in it and eventually win game, otherwise this nydus thing is bullshit and useless", sadly nydus isnt supposed to be used like that which many people fail to realise.
Nydus was dying fast in BW as well and was used A LOT for connecting bases and now you have option to use it on offensive positions and in your opponents base and people whine that it got too low hp and is too much of a cost to build in the first place.
Again, Nydus was created for connecting bases on big maps and 2 base allins that we already saw A LOT of times in ZvP, we saw it in ZvZ as well few times and in ZvT (EVEN in GSL).
People suggesting that it should have MORE hp, what is protoss supposed to do after forge FE vs nydus? kill it with what except probes?
If protoss has nothing but probes when a nydus comes out,even after FFE, what in the fuck has he been doing? It's faster to move everything but hydras normally from base to base normally unless you are being attacked in which case the nydus is even more of a hinderance and as zerg you're probably gonna sac the base anyway. The point about them dying to quickly is that after the noise tells your opponent a nydus has gone off you can kill it with about 6 probes before it pops.
The fact that workers can kill it, is why pros never use it. Too much investment, and even if it completes units can just target it down.
Even though you could use it to effectiveness in probably Diamond and lower, people never see it used by pros, therefore it isn't part of the strategies that people are picking. If someone managed to win some cool GSL games with it, or in MLG, someone like DRG or Leenock, I bet they would start popping up on the ladder a bunch too.
I think they will become more useful as the metagame progresses, but the one thing I'd patch if I were Blizzard is make worms cancellable. Maybe make worms a bit cheaper. In BW zerg would make tons of nydus canals to effectively defend remote bases, but this was mostly based on Dark Swarm in the lategame, while in SC2, zerg defends mostly based on the speed of zerglings.
IMO it could be very useful defensively, but to use them effectively on the offense probably requires huge amounts of skill and APM, you'd need multiple worms in many places, and that is expensive as hell too.
On March 02 2012 00:10 cursor wrote: The fact that workers can kill it, is why pros never use it. Too much investment, and even if it completes units can just target it down.
Even though you could use it to effectiveness in probably Diamond and lower, people never see it used by pros, therefore it isn't part of the strategies that people are picking. If someone managed to win some cool GSL games with it, or in MLG, someone like DRG or Leenock, I bet they would start popping up on the ladder a bunch too.
Leenock won MVP with Nydus 2 base play -.- IN GSL.
On March 01 2012 23:43 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: People think nydus should be something like "I use it on top of my opponents army/base and get whole army in it and eventually win game, otherwise this nydus thing is bullshit and useless", sadly nydus isnt supposed to be used like that which many people fail to realise.
Nydus was dying fast in BW as well and was used A LOT for connecting bases and now you have option to use it on offensive positions and in your opponents base and people whine that it got too low hp and is too much of a cost to build in the first place.
Again, Nydus was created for connecting bases on big maps and 2 base allins that we already saw A LOT of times in ZvP, we saw it in ZvZ as well few times and in ZvT (EVEN in GSL).
People suggesting that it should have MORE hp, what is protoss supposed to do after forge FE vs nydus? kill it with what except probes?
If protoss has nothing but probes when a nydus comes out,even after FFE, what in the fuck has he been doing? It's faster to move everything but hydras normally from base to base normally unless you are being attacked in which case the nydus is even more of a hinderance and as zerg you're probably gonna sac the base anyway. The point about them dying to quickly is that after the noise tells your opponent a nydus has gone off you can kill it with about 6 probes before it pops.
Ever heard of ling nydus?
as in rush for nydus to get lings in their base? even my crappy, gold, off-race protoss has a zealot and a couple of sentries by then. I'm not saying nydus is terrible by the way, they are fun do just drop around the map for super fast creep spread, counter attacks and just generally annoying your opponent and making them worry about stuff. Some tweaking could make them much more interesting (think the warp prism buff)
The nydus itself is not the issue. Zerg doesn't have any unit that is worth transporting into it. In BW you could use it for defensive purpose with dark swarm and lurkers that could actually hold ground until your army arrives. In Starcraft 2 its better to just sack your expansion and counter with slings by running into his natural/main or defend it with your whole army.
The best use of a nydus I have seen is for the fear factor and to spread creep to prevent expansions. You can nydus and creep tumour Terran/Protoss third/fourth to slow them down. But I don't think its worth it since you can't hold a position with zerg except broodlords and those are way to late and doesn't require a nydus.
I guess if a nydus could transport brood lords, that would be a really good utility for it late game.
On March 01 2012 23:43 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: People think nydus should be something like "I use it on top of my opponents army/base and get whole army in it and eventually win game, otherwise this nydus thing is bullshit and useless", sadly nydus isnt supposed to be used like that which many people fail to realise.
Nydus was dying fast in BW as well and was used A LOT for connecting bases and now you have option to use it on offensive positions and in your opponents base and people whine that it got too low hp and is too much of a cost to build in the first place.
Again, Nydus was created for connecting bases on big maps and 2 base allins that we already saw A LOT of times in ZvP, we saw it in ZvZ as well few times and in ZvT (EVEN in GSL).
People suggesting that it should have MORE hp, what is protoss supposed to do after forge FE vs nydus? kill it with what except probes?
If protoss has nothing but probes when a nydus comes out,even after FFE, what in the fuck has he been doing? It's faster to move everything but hydras normally from base to base normally unless you are being attacked in which case the nydus is even more of a hinderance and as zerg you're probably gonna sac the base anyway. The point about them dying to quickly is that after the noise tells your opponent a nydus has gone off you can kill it with about 6 probes before it pops.
Ever heard of ling nydus?
as in rush for nydus to get lings in their base? even my crappy, gold, off-race protoss has a zealot and a couple of sentries by then. I'm not saying nydus is terrible by the way, they are fun do just drop around the map for super fast creep spread, counter attacks and just generally annoying your opponent and making them worry about stuff. Some tweaking could make them much more interesting (think the warp prism buff)
You have no idea what you're talking about, Beastyqt is correct. Nydus rushes can have the worm building shortly after you have one zealot: that worm goes down on the opposite side of the base when you only have a zealot out and you aren't stopping it if it has a health buff.
It's supposed to get units from point A to point B quickly.
With the exception of hydralisks most zerg units would arrive at B more quickly if they'd just walk there, because the unload time is so long and goes 1-by-1 which makes cheap small units much worse to use with it than, say, ultras and infestors.
I guess if you could use it with Brood Lords that would make a lot of sense, either for a quick retreat or offensively.
Nydus was used at GSL code A on match 1 betwen Zenio and STC on Entombed valley. Zenio nydused sC's base to force his army to break its postioning and then he attacked same time to STC's fourth base succesfully killing the planetary fortress, while lings where killing production buildings of sC.
@ Whitewing What time is this occuring then? Yes I'm not good at the game but for zerg to get lair, then nydus, then build the nydus in your base before you can possibly have more than one zealot, they can't have too much else. If it's an all-in then it should be kinda good vs such a greedy opening don't you agree? If it isn't an all-in and is a smooth transition into a standard mid game, then surely it would be the go-to opener for every zerg there is?
Zerg units kind of suck in straight up fights. Nydus worming into a Terran base generally means you're going to have a ton of chokes created by the unit producing structures and the bio will simply murder whatever comes out. Granted I think they're under utilized since they are pretty cheap (Terrans throw nukes everywhere with little intention of it actually working) but I can understand the new vogue of Zerg just wanting a Tier3 deathball.
On March 02 2012 00:41 Tef wrote: The nydus itself is not the issue. Zerg doesn't have any unit that is worth transporting into it. In BW you could use it for defensive purpose with dark swarm and lurkers that could actually hold ground until your army arrives. In Starcraft 2 its better to just sack your expansion and counter with slings by running into his natural/main or defend it with your whole army.
The best use of a nydus I have seen is for the fear factor and to spread creep to prevent expansions. You can nydus and creep tumour Terran/Protoss third/fourth to slow them down. But I don't think its worth it since you can't hold a position with zerg except broodlords and those are way to late and doesn't require a nydus.
I guess if a nydus could transport brood lords, that would be a really good utility for it late game.
I really like when you mentioned that you could throw it down at a third or fourth base. I like it because if terran or protoss hear the scream and acknowledge it then they move their army out of position to respond to it, leaving them open to either a counter attack, drop in main, or even a head on attack if the third forces a choke or some disadvantage for the defender.
Perhaps that something of a function fixedness, we feel that the cost must give us some visible benefit. I think you could attempt to use the nydus like a warp prism/pylon essentially, drop a nydus a ways away from the base, go in for the attack rally all your reinforcements to the nydus and as you're continuing the attack your reinforcements come semi-instantly, rather then requiring a creep highway.
Today: Morrow when making his "spawnpoint" of his hydras closer.
Yesterday: GLSnute with huge success! He had alot of gas tho so he made like loads of infestors and nydrus to spend it, was really cool tho and his control is imba (no hotkeys wtf?)
Else: Before spanishiwa made his analys things on stream i saw him do some roachstrat including nydrus.
I've also seen Psy make use of it a couple of times when a protoss is greedy and cannonrushes when he FFE's, then he makes a 1 base nydrus/roach attack in the protoss main, it's a bit cheesy tho For those of you who dont know him he do play against good players on the ladder such as kiwikaki and ret!
im kinda proud of how i used one recently, zvp i decided to go for a counterattack since my army composition was crap. so while tearing up the opponents base i build a nydus inside so i could have a retreat option when his army came back to defend. I ended up losing the game (probes are imba in base trades) but i felt like a genius at that moment.
The rest of this thread is sad. People are just regurgiating what other people say because they said it OR they try to play the way they normally play + build nydus and then fail horribly and assume its bad OR they're just bad at spacial reasoning and don't understand the concept of map control besides their opponent's main. Also to be fair the original map pool was horrible for nydus because the maps were so small.
Banelings were also bad versus protoss for the longest time, but then suddenly people started making a playstyle around them (dropping them via overlords) rather than trying to use the same strategy + banelings. Nydus are the same freaking way. You can't just play + use nydus and expect success, you have to actually learn how to use it and how to make a (non-cheese) strategy around it.
The closest thing to a legitimate problem that nydus have right now is that almost every Zerg army right now relies in part on zerglings (the worst unit for nydus use because they're fast and come out slowly). It'd be nice if they made it so lings pop out 2/time from a worm lol.
With the exception of hydralisks most zerg units would arrive at B more quickly if they'd just walk there, because the unload time is so long and goes 1-by-1 which makes cheap small units much worse to use with it than, say, ultras and infestors.
Not true. -You ignore that units can do something, then enter & exit the worm once it's built where as by going from point A -> point B they're ONLY travelling. -You ignore that A->B may not always be safe. For example if your T opponent has siege tanks mid map you can't run units safely past, but there's 1/4th of the map to put a nydus in and your opponent would be hardpressed to keep all of it scouted all the time. -You ignore that after the worm is built the travel time is dramatically reduced because it's just load/unload time. -Walking is all or nothing. If B is 30s away then from t=0 to t=30 you have nothing attacking that location, with worms you have an attack that's constantly ramping up. So from t=20->t=30 -There's no indication of an imminent attack until the worm finishes, with walking your opponent is much more likely to spot it coming because they know where you have to move to walk from point a to point b, but there's a staggering # of locations you can put a worm.
If the entrance and exit are 30s apart (judged by the unit walking the distance) you can get 20 units from point A to point B faster than you can by walking them if you include the time to build the worm. That's 20 roaches, quite enough to sack an expansion. If you don't count the time to build the worm (which you can in many cases ignore if your units do other things while the worm is building) then you can get 60 units or 120 population of roaches from point a to point b faster than walking. 30s for roaches on bigger maps really isn't that far.
Underused because you can get overlord speed and drops for the same price as the building and 1 deployment. There is less risk with overlord drops also.
I think it will have a niche use as a cheese, though no one is interested to try yet as zergs still on macro metagame and trying to go econ and base management games.
Cons It costs masses of money, making it too expensive for most people to consider using it as transportation. Units come out of it really slowly It can be killed really easily, a few workers for example It relies on your opponent making a big mistake, and is therefore something which almost never works against decent opposition. It's inferior to drops in almost every way, from cost to unloading quicker to baneling dropping the opponents army, there's almost nothing it is better than drops for.
Pros You can instantly transport units around the map.
It was tried in GSL just recently and it failed. It's not underused it's just rubbish. You could argue drops are underused but not Nydus. Unless they make it like Broodwar it's never going to be a staple of play. It has some good counterattack possibility versus Protoss but that's about it.
On March 02 2012 01:36 Ziktomini wrote: Cons It costs masses of money, making it too expensive for most people to consider using it as transportation. a lot for the initial canal. Each worm only needs to save the life of 1 infestor, save 2-3 roaches, or kill 4-6 workers to be cost effective. UnitsZerglings come out of it really slowly It can be killed really easily, a few workers for example It relies on your opponent making a big mistake, and is therefore something which almost never works against decent opposition.Only if you put it in a place where you know he can stop it, which is your mistake if you do. It's inferior to drops in almost every way, from cost to unloading quicker to baneling dropping the opponents army, there's almost nothing it is better than drops for.assumption
Pros You can instantly transport units around the map. This is a huge pro.
Fixed your list.
On March 02 2012 01:36 Klive5ive wrote: It was tried in GSL just recently and it failed. It's not underused it's just rubbish. You could argue drops are underused but not Nydus. Unless they make it like Broodwar it's never going to be a staple of play. It has some good counterattack possibility versus Protoss but that's about it.
It was tried IN THE MAIN BASE NAKED (no defending units) which is a horrible use of the worm. That's like saying banelings are rubbish each time one gets picked off away from units.
Can't they just make it so the sound can be turned off or on by the zerg player? If you could do that, I think you could get away with it a LOT more, especially in the lower leagues. If you want to scare the shit out of someone, leave the screech sound on, if you want to be Ninja like and drop in the corner of a big base that the opponent does have vision of, click a button and the screech is gone. I think this is the biggest single reason no one uses this tech, a drop for instance is WAY more sneaky. If blizzard makes this single change I think nydus will get a HUGE increase in use, whether or not this would make it OP I don't know.
it's too weak for its cost, the strategy that revolves around planting an early nydus can be absolutely nullified by scouting it and killing it with one zealot or 3 scvs. and players nowadays are pretty good at scouting around their bases and covering the vision everywhere. it's pretty good in lower leagues
it's pretty good and underused in late game for connecting bases, counterattacks, faster reinforcements or even sometimes creep spread. but i guess good players will always rather use the gas for broodlords or infestors.
i guess it has a really bad reward/risk ratio. where if the Terran or Protoss catch it then that 200 gas down the drain and since they know about the nydus they will probably not be caught out of position again by it so you invested in useless tech.
They're pretty terrible in a less than 4 base situation. As the game progresses deeply into the late game and the margin for error grows, they can be useful. But nydus is definitely one of those things that relies on the lack of multitasking of your opponent. The worse your opponent is, the better a nydus can be. They aren't static in terms of how useful they are.
They don't buff it because if too many are on the map at once the zerg player crashes.
But the real reason is that most zerg players want 100% of their gas on unit and unit upgrades, and rely on creep spread being the method of moving troops faster.
I believe the problem is logistical, it's standard to have all of your hatcheries on the same hotkey and at that point you have to worry about different rally points to your nydus, which units end up going where, whihc control groups are IN the nydus and outside. I think the problem is the level of SC2 play hasn't gotten to the point where we can manage our macro/micro/standard play AND the rally points etc that a nydus requires.
On March 02 2012 02:05 DIRESTRAIT wrote: I believe the problem is logistical, it's standard to have all of your hatcheries on the same hotkey and at that point you have to worry about different rally points to your nydus, which units end up going where, whihc control groups are IN the nydus and outside. I think the problem is the level of SC2 play hasn't gotten to the point where we can manage our macro/micro/standard play AND the rally points etc that a nydus requires.
Ehm, pretty much all zergs in GSL have their hatcheries on seperate hotkeys. Foreigners don't tho.
OP you should check ArgosZenith, he was a pro who never made it into GSL. Don't know if he still plays, but he used nydus a lot and in different ways.
However I doubt you'll see nydus a lot, because its offensive effectiveness presumes an opponent's mistake (a la Ret vs Darkforce at IEM) or lack of brain (not covering his base) and a serious player cannot rely on his opponents to fuck up. Defensively speaking, in mid-early nydus costs gas so you don't want it and in late you are supposed to have a good creep spread, which basically does the same thing for free. It could work with hydras, but there's still the overlord drop option.
Guess the maps are too little for the nydus to be used properly.
I feel the nydua worm should also have a built in spine crawler feature. I think they would be used more often. If the Nydus worm completes it should get its health boosted by 25%. so if its been damaged its harder to focus down...making focusing it down while its building more of a priority.
I find it most useful late game when I'm maxed and have tons of extra resources. I use it between expos and just to use the extra resources, pop up a few nydas at opponents bases and throw out lings/roaches or other cheap units. It can sometimes be quite effective but I guess it's also depending on how good your opponent are at multitasking.
On March 02 2012 01:43 h41fgod wrote: Make it give no warning when it is opened on creep. Reduce cost/improve health/reduce build time as appropriate. Decrease time for loading/unloading.
There are lots of things you can do to balance it, but nobody bothered.
I like the no warning while on creep but I don't think it will change much in how it's currently used. Personally I wouldn't mind some kind of upgrade for the nydas.
On March 02 2012 01:36 Klive5ive wrote: It was tried in GSL just recently and it failed. It's not underused it's just rubbish. You could argue drops are underused but not Nydus. Unless they make it like Broodwar it's never going to be a staple of play. It has some good counterattack possibility versus Protoss but that's about it.
If they make it like Broodwar it will be worst, I think they can reduce the cooldown of the worms pop and also reduce the unloading of unit I have also heard an idea of unpopping the worms for putting it another place, It could be interesting.
Buddism, in your vid, your supply is basically double your opponents. Pretty much any attack would have killed him. It doesn't really show the viablility of nydus when your macro is so much better.
On March 02 2012 02:24 vthree wrote: Buddism, in your vid, your supply is basically double your opponents. Pretty much any attack would have killed him. It doesn't really show the viablility of nydus when your macro is so much better.
You are correct, that doesn't speak to the concept though, like I said, it works through Low Masters at least (a majority of the time too)
Everything has mostly been said about the Nydus, so I'll pitch in with what I use it for: vP while I'm using roach/hydra in the midgame in order to bring up reinforcements very quickly and for an avenue of escape, I'll start dropping nydus behind my frontline of roach/hydra. You can reinforce the roach/hydra ball very quickly when they don't have to walk across the entire map, and if everything goes south you can save most of them by retreating back into the nydus instead of having every hydra die. Also great for setting up flanks.
Everyone wonders why nydus isn't used that much, I wondered the same thing myself, so I tried to incorporate nydus into a great deal of my matchups. All it proved was why they are ineffective in the majority of situations: it stopped being a useful strat once I hit diamond lol.
Nydus Speedling all in is very viable vs protoss IMO that forge expands as a super fast 1 hits before FFE warp gates or any form of tech. I also see Idra use it in a 2 base hydra all in with a forward nydus rather than an in base nydus (into eventually an in base nydus) with great success You don't see it often in tournament cause its really cheesy / all-in-ish
In terms of late game, I believe it is very viable just cause it really tasks each players multitasking ability and the last time i remember it being used well was Idra vs Puma on Shattered at ASUS IEM china if you'd like to see how that works. In theory its usable for expanding to islands or just very large maps in general although weighing that against the 300/300 is a lil questionable.
On March 02 2012 02:24 vthree wrote: Buddism, in your vid, your supply is basically double your opponents. Pretty much any attack would have killed him. It doesn't really show the viablility of nydus when your macro is so much better.
then again, he did use roaches so he is expected to have way more supply than your enemy.
using a nydus worm is almost never worth the money, in a lategame drop is better and the only other occasions you use a nydus is after the protoss cannonrushed you succesfully. But if he did that he usually patrols a probe and builds pylons so he can see his whole base making the nydus worm yet another zerg mechanic that only works if your opponent fucks up in the first place. There are also some hydra allins that use a nydus in front of a base but it is rather weak on huge maps because you cant reeinforce quick enough with the nydus. On smaller maps it is usually better to build an overlord creep highway and make more queens if your plan is to hydra allin anyway.
also you can't cancel it and it is super expensive.
I think it could be compared to terran drops. The worm itself is very gas expensive for it's low life, Mr.Bitter once said it should cost 250 minerals and no gas, or something, which I think is a great idea. Requires great APM to utilise effectively for 2/3 pronged attack, drops can be shift queued to a mineral line.
Zerg units are not cost efficient in very low numbers. 8 marines can kill alot of stuff, and workers really fast. 16 lings unloaded slowly may kill some stuff, but you must get there first. Granted you may get alot of workers more cheaply though.
Maps are not so big that movement is such a huge issue. For toss warp ins and zerg with creep, nydus vs. a terran could be good, but there are still many ways to counter. Still will never be as useful as a drop.
Deathball issue, discussed before. Especially as zerg, losing any units from your already fairly poor deathball is going to hurt, and I'm talking to mid to early-late game, not when Broods are out and zerg deathball is OK.
Nydus worm is hard to balance. Make it too durable, build too fast / unload too fast and it can be overpowered. Make it too shitty and no one is going to use it. Blizzard seems to like playing it safe and making units weaker rather than stronger so thats the way nydus worms are going to go for now. They have potential for increased usage, but all of the cons have already been discussed and are very real. Until players are comfortable enough with the metagame to experiment adding a nydus into their build we're not going to see it. The game is still undergoing too many changes to incorporate a risky element into it.
Why does everyone just say the same stuff over and over again when talking about nydus ? Yes, we KNOW it's not going to work at high level of play when you just try to pop it in your opponent's base. Maybe we can get over this and try to think of when it could work ?
Like, few days ago, it may be Ret vs Puma or some GSL game, where the zerg did a massive runby with all his lings and mutas, only to have his lings crushed by the terran force when it came home. What if while attacking the main, the zerg poped a nydus in terran's base to secure a retreat path ? With 50+ lings in your base, it's not like a couple of workers could kill it, and the loading time is rather quick.
Also, we have seen some hydra pushes with nydus fail horribly. What about going for it the other way around ? You push with a larger force of hydras (cause you didn't invest in nydus as early as usual) and again, use nydus to secure a retreat path ?
I remember an old game on metalopolis, ZvP, both Koreans, where the zerg used 2 nydus network to completely outmaneuver the protoss deathball. The thing is, and it will be even more true the larger the maps get, you don't even need to have it really close to the guy's bases, as long as it makes any trip shorter it is something to consider in a late game scenario. Plus, at these level, it taxes multitask as much as drops, especially if used as a multi-pronged tactic.
Furthermore, I read some people dissing the unload time by telling it's a nightmare with lings or something. Lings in nydus, really ? If you want to have some lings in a walled-in base, that's what drops are for. Although I agree that the unload time is rather slow, it shouldn't be an issue if the nydus is used properly and for units that really need fast transportation (infestors, queens, hydras, that's pretty much it. Maybe ultras).
They're useful, but as a zerg player, 99% of the time, your gas is better spent making another infestor or broodlord, because at the stage of the game where nydus becomes useful and isn't an all-in move, Infestor/BL is the only thing that's going to hurt your opponent anyway (particularly against protoss, photon cannons really slow down any backstab combined with instant warpins)
The one big use I've seen for them is latelate game ZvT where you can drop a worm in the main while you're trucking the center with infestor/BL which can allow you to pick off tech labs to slow down ghost production (and if you're lucky you might grab an upgrading building or sensor tower).
(infestors, queens, hydras, that's pretty much it. Maybe ultras).
All these units can also be dropped. In the case of infestors ists even better to drop them, because nothing screams "scan your F-ing base!" as loud as a nydus. Drop them, burrow them, maybe wait a bit, drop your IT/fungals and back off. No need for a nydus there. Leaves us with Queens and hydras. If you want to spread creep, you can also drop a queen and vomit with your Overlord, for transfuse: no difference. Leaves us with hydras. Yes Hydras are the unit which profits a ton from nydus play. But Hydras are not exactly that popular in TvZ. They are sometimes used in ZvZ. They are used in PvZ... for all-ins, for timing attacks, for base defense. They are not used in lategame szenarios.
It's not that it's weak or too costly or anything (because quite frankly it isnt) but the metagame just hasn't shifted that way yet. I think its more useful lategame when things are more spread out. However most people are using broodlord based compositions lategame which doesn't really work with nydus (except maybe for queen/broodlord plays?). As ultras become more popular (or possibly hydras) you will see more nydusing. It just doesn't solve any issues that zergs are having right now.
On March 02 2012 02:53 Cynry wrote: Why does everyone just say the same stuff over and over again when talking about nydus ? Yes, we KNOW it's not going to work at high level of play when you just try to pop it in your opponent's base. Maybe we can get over this and try to think of when it could work ?
Like, few days ago, it may be Ret vs Puma or some GSL game, where the zerg did a massive runby with all his lings and mutas, only to have his lings crushed by the terran force when it came home. What if while attacking the main, the zerg poped a nydus in terran's base to secure a retreat path ? With 50+ lings in your base, it's not like a couple of workers could kill it, and the loading time is rather quick.
Also, we have seen some hydra pushes with nydus fail horribly. What about going for it the other way around ? You push with a larger force of hydras (cause you didn't invest in nydus as early as usual) and again, use nydus to secure a retreat path ?
I remember an old game on metalopolis, ZvP, both Koreans, where the zerg used 2 nydus network to completely outmaneuver the protoss deathball. The thing is, and it will be even more true the larger the maps get, you don't even need to have it really close to the guy's bases, as long as it makes any trip shorter it is something to consider in a late game scenario. Plus, at these level, it taxes multitask as much as drops, especially if used as a multi-pronged tactic.
Furthermore, I read some people dissing the unload time by telling it's a nightmare with lings or something. Lings in nydus, really ? If you want to have some lings in a walled-in base, that's what drops are for. Although I agree that the unload time is rather slow, it shouldn't be an issue if the nydus is used properly and for units that really need fast transportation (infestors, queens, hydras, that's pretty much it. Maybe ultras).
why do you post stuff that has been discussed over and over again?
On March 02 2012 02:53 Cynry wrote: Why does everyone just say the same stuff over and over again when talking about nydus ? Yes, we KNOW it's not going to work at high level of play when you just try to pop it in your opponent's base. Maybe we can get over this and try to think of when it could work ?
Like, few days ago, it may be Ret vs Puma or some GSL game, where the zerg did a massive runby with all his lings and mutas, only to have his lings crushed by the terran force when it came home. What if while attacking the main, the zerg poped a nydus in terran's base to secure a retreat path ? With 50+ lings in your base, it's not like a couple of workers could kill it, and the loading time is rather quick.
Also, we have seen some hydra pushes with nydus fail horribly. What about going for it the other way around ? You push with a larger force of hydras (cause you didn't invest in nydus as early as usual) and again, use nydus to secure a retreat path ?
I remember an old game on metalopolis, ZvP, both Koreans, where the zerg used 2 nydus network to completely outmaneuver the protoss deathball. The thing is, and it will be even more true the larger the maps get, you don't even need to have it really close to the guy's bases, as long as it makes any trip shorter it is something to consider in a late game scenario. Plus, at these level, it taxes multitask as much as drops, especially if used as a multi-pronged tactic.
Furthermore, I read some people dissing the unload time by telling it's a nightmare with lings or something. Lings in nydus, really ? If you want to have some lings in a walled-in base, that's what drops are for. Although I agree that the unload time is rather slow, it shouldn't be an issue if the nydus is used properly and for units that really need fast transportation (infestors, queens, hydras, that's pretty much it. Maybe ultras).
Yeah I agree with your post. The problem is I think most of the people here aren't even reading the thread. They just come and make a post with their assumptions and then move on.
It would be very cool if units pathed through them ... then it would be a lot more useful for moving around your own bases ... but then z has creep.
They also unload too slow. I get why there is a slow unload rate or else 10 ultras int here would be a little silly on the other end. But lings take sooo long to get out 4 marines can probably hold 200 food of lings coming out of 1 ... and 4 workers can kill it before it spawns.
One problem i have with z lategame is that its big units eat a *lot* of food ... a 200 z army is like 5 bl, 5 ultras 27 lings maybe af ew infestors. That is far more easy to make nydus work with.
I don't get why people keep saying nyduses are useful as reinforcement points. Work on your creep spread and then you'll see how useful nyduses are in comparison.
They're good for blocking bases on huge maps like CBTS, but that's pretty much it. Their low health, long build time, and high cost makes them unsuitable for anything else. It makes me cringe when I see someone say "the metagame just isn't there yet." You think players are going to get worse at spotting and stopping them?
On March 02 2012 03:20 sevia wrote: I don't get why people keep saying nyduses are useful as reinforcement points. Work on your creep spread and then you'll see how useful nyduses are in comparison.
They're good for blocking bases on huge maps like CBTS, but that's pretty much it. Their low health, long build time, and high cost makes them unsuitable for anything else. It makes me cringe when I see someone say "the metagame just isn't there yet." You think players are going to get worse at spotting and stopping them?
You're assuming that they have to be used to get into a base. They can also be used to allow an overextended force to retreat.
On March 02 2012 03:20 sevia wrote: I don't get why people keep saying nyduses are useful as reinforcement points. Work on your creep spread and then you'll see how useful nyduses are in comparison.
They're good for blocking bases on huge maps like CBTS, but that's pretty much it. Their low health, long build time, and high cost makes them unsuitable for anything else. It makes me cringe when I see someone say "the metagame just isn't there yet." You think players are going to get worse at spotting and stopping them?
Players aren't going to get worse, but there will be changes in the way the game is played over time. There could be additional patches in the future, or we might see an enterprising zerg player use nydus effectively and consistently in pro games. There could also be opportunities for nydus worms in newer maps.
On March 02 2012 03:20 sevia wrote: I don't get why people keep saying nyduses are useful as reinforcement points. Work on your creep spread and then you'll see how useful nyduses are in comparison.
They're good for blocking bases on huge maps like CBTS, but that's pretty much it. Their low health, long build time, and high cost makes them unsuitable for anything else. It makes me cringe when I see someone say "the metagame just isn't there yet." You think players are going to get worse at spotting and stopping them?
Make the sound optional, simple button click in game, and the main issue with Nydus goes away, and it would make it WAY harder to spot them. I don't think this makes it OP either considering all the other "issues" so many people have brought up that are a negative against Nydus as well.
Because Blizzard doesn't want players to be surprised or have exciting volatile battles, so you get global sound effects for non-nuke events. Same reason detection is a commodity and splash units don't one-shot things, unfortunately.
On March 02 2012 03:45 0neder wrote: Because Blizzard doesn't want players to be surprised or have exciting volatile battles, so you get global sound effects for non-nuke events. Same reason detection is a commodity and splash units don't one-shot things, unfortunately.
So do you think it would make Nydus OP if the screech sound where optional in game? Does anyone else think that? I don't think it would, but I could be wrong, half the people on here say that good players have full view of their base so it shouldn't matter much there. I play random, but when I play zerg and I'm up against terran, I have to either scout or blindly prepare for banshees or DT's vs protoss, why shouldn't the other races have to worry about and prepare for some sort of sneaky attack from zerg in the early/mid part of the game?
On March 02 2012 01:02 BBQSAC wrote: @ Whitewing What time is this occuring then? Yes I'm not good at the game but for zerg to get lair, then nydus, then build the nydus in your base before you can possibly have more than one zealot, they can't have too much else. If it's an all-in then it should be kinda good vs such a greedy opening don't you agree? If it isn't an all-in and is a smooth transition into a standard mid game, then surely it would be the go-to opener for every zerg there is?
No, I don't agree. FFE is not greedy, and it's the only way for Protoss to keep up with zerg going into the mid-game. The only other way to take a fast base is with a much slower sentry expand, and zerg is way ahead at that point because he got his hatch up way earlier. FFE cedes map control and any form of early aggression for defense, that's not greedy, that's expensive.
Yes, it is an all-in, and no, it doesn't transition well, but if the nydus had a good chance of suceeding, zergs would do it every game vs. toss because if the lings get out of the worm, it's pretty much auto-win for zerg at that point.
On March 02 2012 03:45 0neder wrote: Because Blizzard doesn't want players to be surprised or have exciting volatile battles, so you get global sound effects for non-nuke events. Same reason detection is a commodity and splash units don't one-shot things, unfortunately.
So do you think it would make Nydus OP if the screech sound where optional in game? Does anyone else think that? I don't think it would, but I could be wrong, half the people on here say that good players have full view of their base so it shouldn't matter much there. I play random, but when I play zerg and I'm up against terran, I have to either scout or blindly prepare for banshees or DT's vs protoss, why shouldn't the other races have to worry about and prepare for some sort of sneaky attack from zerg in the early/mid part of the game?
Removing the sound effect would partially raise the "skill cap" which people complain about so frequently. Requiring pro players to have full control and vision over their territory. If we were just talking pro players then I would absolutely 100% be in favour of the sound removal. However It might cause issues at lower levels and become a bit too much of an easy win button. Remembering that Blizzard takes all levels of play into account before they patch anything.
They need to be cheaper, let the network cost the same, but make each worm 100 minerals, it will make terrans and protoss scared like hell, just the same as we are scared of drops and prisms...
Nydus canal unloads/loads 100% faster, also: Make the nydus change the way it works slightly, the nydus will now act apon units pathing, for example i move a roach from my base to the enemys base the roach will automatically use the nydus if the distance is shorter. This can be turned off and on with a button on the nydus worm.
I think this will give the nydus worm more useage cause then you can put it at your rally points and then in the battle and have your units automatically join the battle, simular to a protoss warping in, however its still targetable so the enemy can pick it off if able.
The questions I always ask myself when I play on ladder is
1 ) Why not use drops? Drops are less finnicky and more likely to actually deal damage. Also drops can have other uses other than transporting units ( dropping ultras on heavily meched terran or something)
2 ) If used defensively , why not make spines to stall for time and defend from there? Setting up pre-emptive nydus for something that may not even be coming . Also nydus gets taken down in a matter of seconds , 6 spines don't. ( less APM intensive + good static defense)
That being said , I still use nydus in ZvZ late game because overlord spreading is not something you want to do , especially if there are mutas out. Can be used for hatchery snipes at 4th / 5th base and easy retreat to defend the counter attack or just throw away the roaches and resupply with broods or something.
On March 02 2012 04:30 kurrysauce wrote: The questions I always ask myself when I play on ladder is
1 ) Why not use drops? Drops are less finnicky and more likely to actually deal damage. Also drops can have other uses other than transporting units ( dropping ultras on heavily meched terran or something)
2 ) If used defensively , why not make spines to stall for time and defend from there? Setting up pre-emptive nydus for something that may not even be coming . Also nydus gets taken down in a matter of seconds , 6 spines don't. ( less APM intensive + good static defense)
That being said , I still use nydus in ZvZ late game because overlord spreading is not something you want to do , especially if there are mutas out. Can be used for hatchery snipes at 4th / 5th base and easy retreat to defend the counter attack or just throw away the roaches and resupply with broods or something.
1) Drops aren't Nydus worms, though they can sometimes do the same thing. I can't drop without spending 30s of a unit's time in transporting it. A nydus worm only requires the time it takes to load/unload (which for say 20 roaches is only ~10s).
2) The army receiving the attack always has an advantage because they get to dictate the positioning of the fight. If you defend with spines and move to defend your base you are the player initiating the attack. If you Nydus and set-up to receive the attack then you get to dictate its positioning. This is doubly so when you need to initiate a fight within a certain time (like rushing back to defend a base) and can't setup or jockey for position so you might end up having to attack without a good flank/concave.
<3 Zelniq (and anyone who says Nydus worms are underused really).
nydus costs too much and will never get up inside your enemies base if they're any good, the fact that a negligible (compared to cost of trying to make one) number of workers can kill it before it finishes makes it a very unattractive option, rather high risk without the guarantee of damage, what if they're just waiting outside of vision to trap w/e units u try to nydus in? if not then you probably do lots of damage but if so they kill all the units u sent, and the 200/200 nydus.
On March 01 2012 13:47 Torte de Lini wrote: Can't be canceled. Expensive to build. Expensive to make a Nydus. Obvious and limited use. units come out one at a time when you unload
this is basically the problems summed up pretty well. Although its worth noting that nydus is great for "power" units - infestors, hydras, etc, it really seems crippled for swarmy units like roach/ling comps. It should DEFINITELY unload more than 1 unit a time, the way it is now, it takes too long to unload 50 lings into someone's base... they hear the nydus and kill it with their workers.
On March 01 2012 23:34 shizna wrote: i think a cool change would be instead of the:
- blob on minimap while building - screams when completed
it should be:
- no blob on minimap until completed - screams when building
therefore the opponent will hear a scream and then has to urgently look around his base for the churning dirt without the aid of minimap.
i believe blizzard's original design is flawed... it's meant to be stealthy in that you place it in the corner of someone's base where they don't have vision so they can't see it on the minimap... but this almost never happens outside noob leagues because almost everyone positions creep, overlords, supply depots, pylons or something to grant vision in their base ALREADY because it's universally useful against pretty much every kind of harrass - drops, pylons, blink, nydus etc.
No thats against what starcraft gameplay is, the scream is controversial not blob. Its like saying you shouldnt see medivac on minimap unless it unloads.
the scream is what gives it away not the blob? what.... if you hear the scream then the nydus is already freaking unloading in your base - one must be retarded to not see the nydus on minimap like 1 second after the scream.
if there was an instant scream, the zerg could comitting to a 2-3 simultaneous nydus play or it could be a decoy... whatever - you still have to manually search your bases to see where the nydus may be popping up because it will be hidden on the map until fully deployed.
the change i suggested is rediculously good... might even make nydus OP.
On March 01 2012 13:47 Torte de Lini wrote: Can't be canceled. Expensive to build. Expensive to make a Nydus. Obvious and limited use. units come out one at a time when you unload
this is basically the problems summed up pretty well. Although its worth noting that nydus is great for "power" units - infestors, hydras, etc, it really seems crippled for swarmy units like roach/ling comps. It should DEFINITELY unload more than 1 unit a time, the way it is now, it takes too long to unload 50 lings into someone's base... they hear the nydus and kill it with their workers.
Roaches are as efficient at using a nydus network as Hydras are (2pop/unload).
On March 02 2012 03:45 0neder wrote: Because Blizzard doesn't want players to be surprised or have exciting volatile battles, so you get global sound effects for non-nuke events. Same reason detection is a commodity and splash units don't one-shot things, unfortunately.
So do you think it would make Nydus OP if the screech sound where optional in game? Does anyone else think that? I don't think it would, but I could be wrong, half the people on here say that good players have full view of their base so it shouldn't matter much there. I play random, but when I play zerg and I'm up against terran, I have to either scout or blindly prepare for banshees or DT's vs protoss, why shouldn't the other races have to worry about and prepare for some sort of sneaky attack from zerg in the early/mid part of the game?
Preparing for banshees and DT's is a lot different from having an entire zerg army swarm into your base unexpectedly.
On March 02 2012 04:24 NostalgiaTag wrote: Here's my idea for the Nydus:
Upgrade costing 100/100 (subject to balance)
Nydus canal unloads/loads 100% faster, also: Make the nydus change the way it works slightly, the nydus will now act apon units pathing, for example i move a roach from my base to the enemys base the roach will automatically use the nydus if the distance is shorter. This can be turned off and on with a button on the nydus worm.
I think this will give the nydus worm more useage cause then you can put it at your rally points and then in the battle and have your units automatically join the battle, simular to a protoss warping in, however its still targetable so the enemy can pick it off if able.
This is actually a pretty smart thing to add :O. Never thought about the auto use of nydus if distance is shorter. If they add this i think its gonna be a little bit easier to use. Right now, its too hard to use, costs gas and unloads very slow.
Only problem would be drones mining back and forth by nydus xD but i guess they can fix that.
i remember checkprime used to do some kooky nydus stuff against toss late game, where he had like 3-4 nyduses around the map and run around pop up and kill shit, it was sick
Btw, I'm using Nydus in ZvP when I'm going Muta/Ling and setting up for a basetrade... It doesn't make a difference, as I'm only going Mutas against Protoss to finish a won game, but maybe people who go 2base muta cheese vs toss should think about incorporating it. It makes the basetrade even easier, because you will just have 60drones in his main or whereever you want to flee with them; though I guess from 2bases with mutas... you're going to be very tight on the gas
if terrans get to salvage their bunkers, i should get to salvage my frikin nyduses. it's just not worth the 100 gas if it's almost always going to get killed.
give zergs the option to retract it back into the ground after it completes. 75% money back.
On March 02 2012 06:39 TheDraken wrote: if terrans get to salvage their bunkers, i should get to salvage my frikin nyduses. it's just not worth the 100 gas if it's almost always going to get killed.
give zergs the option to retract it back into the ground after it completes. 75% money back.
bunkers are minerals and meant for defense. nydus worms are offensive/unusual structures like the sensor tower which costs 125 gas.
On March 02 2012 06:39 TheDraken wrote: if terrans get to salvage their bunkers, i should get to salvage my frikin nyduses. it's just not worth the 100 gas if it's almost always going to get killed.
give zergs the option to retract it back into the ground after it completes. 75% money back.
bunkers are minerals and meant for defense. nydus worms are offensive/unusual structures like the sensor tower which costs 125 gas.
if only the nydus were as useful as a sensor tower.
it's still noisy as fuck. it's still weak as shit. it still unloads one at a time. you still have to invest 200 gas into the original network.
On March 02 2012 06:39 TheDraken wrote: if terrans get to salvage their bunkers, i should get to salvage my frikin nyduses. it's just not worth the 100 gas if it's almost always going to get killed.
give zergs the option to retract it back into the ground after it completes. 75% money back.
Yah, I should be able to salvage my Nexus or any other tech structure that I don't have any use for and that might be killed. I don't see the use of having a templar archives when my opponent switches from banes to mass roach. It's just not worth having HT with storms at that point in the game. If terran gets to salvage their bunkers, I should be able to salvage my templar archives.
There is something called investing in a tech structure. If you could salvage a nydus worm, this would be a free tech route that would make the mechanic imbalanced.
On March 02 2012 06:39 TheDraken wrote: if terrans get to salvage their bunkers, i should get to salvage my frikin nyduses. it's just not worth the 100 gas if it's almost always going to get killed.
give zergs the option to retract it back into the ground after it completes. 75% money back.
bunkers are minerals and meant for defense. nydus worms are offensive/unusual structures like the sensor tower which costs 125 gas.
if only the nydus were as useful as a sensor tower.
it's still noisy as fuck. it's still weak as shit. it still unloads one at a time. you still have to invest 200 gas into the original network.
a salvage ability would be MORE than fair.
And other things have huge disadvantages too, and still people use them. Though I don't think that salvage would be OP (nor do I think it would be really good...), I don't think it would change anything, nor do I think, that a strong Nydus option is needed for Zerg. Pretty much everything Zerg has overlaps partly with Nydus... Drops, Creep, Speed Upgrades. The time the Nydus becomes really useful, you are in a stalemate which usually can only be achieved by going Broodlords, which can't use the Nydus... It's problem is not really the balancing (it's rather questionable if it should be buffed in a way, that it becomes very useful early on, out of balance terms and also to avoid every Zerg strategy centering around not fighting an opponent), but the design that is not really needed. At least in the current metagame/mappool.
Yeah, I've been working on a nydus speedling rush that works great against FFE, however, it has to either kill a lot of probes, tech, and/or the main nexus or I'm at a disadvantage.
Perhaps giving the worm a "retreat" ability, where it could burrow back underground, and make the next worm either free to spawn or cheaper would make it much more appealing.
On March 02 2012 06:56 FindMuck wrote: I think units should come out supply wise, like 6 supply at a time.
That means ultralisks will come out one at a time, but lings will spawn in 12 and roaches in 3.
Also, nydus cant be cancelled (i think)
Changes like that would mean zerg would win every game that goes longer than 10-15 minutes. How can you possibly move out when a zerg can attack your 3rd and be back for a perfect defense in the time it takes you to cross the map? The only thing keeping that ability in a reasonable check is that you can't cancel the nydus and the well tuned unloading speed. Sure right now you can do ling run bys, but with changes like that to the nydus it could be any unit (hydra, roach, etc.).
On March 02 2012 07:31 Merikh wrote: It's not cost efficient enough, easy to spot, expensive, small amount of probes can deal with it. Oh and it can't be cancelled.
I see the future of nydus is defensively one at each base on big maps and using to reinforce like warpgates are used to reinforce for protoss.
i defeinitely agree with this. its just not quite what people assume it is, and blizz isnt going to buff it before HotS
On March 02 2012 03:45 0neder wrote: Because Blizzard doesn't want players to be surprised or have exciting volatile battles, so you get global sound effects for non-nuke events. Same reason detection is a commodity and splash units don't one-shot things, unfortunately.
So do you think it would make Nydus OP if the screech sound where optional in game? Does anyone else think that? I don't think it would, but I could be wrong, half the people on here say that good players have full view of their base so it shouldn't matter much there. I play random, but when I play zerg and I'm up against terran, I have to either scout or blindly prepare for banshees or DT's vs protoss, why shouldn't the other races have to worry about and prepare for some sort of sneaky attack from zerg in the early/mid part of the game?
Preparing for banshees and DT's is a lot different from having an entire zerg army swarm into your base unexpectedly.
Preparing for it is actually easier than prepping for a banshee attack, and the results are basically the same but easier to stop the zerg issue. If you have no detection at all and a banshee or DT hits you, you're f'ed, at least one base worth of probes are down the drain, against banshees, you still need anti-air to kill them even if you do have detection and they're a lot harder to pin down than a DT because they fly. Stopping a nydus is simply about having regular vision across your base, nothing more, and if they do somehow get a nydus in your base because you don't have vision everywhere, you can kill the pain by killing the nydus quickly and mopping up the regular units that aren't cloaked in your base. I think it's easier to both prevent and stop a nydus attack than a banshee or dt attack if we're talking earlier game. Once you have detection it may be easier to stop DT and banshee, but without it, it's harder, but detection IS the preparation we're talking about.
On March 02 2012 06:39 TheDraken wrote: if terrans get to salvage their bunkers, i should get to salvage my frikin nyduses. it's just not worth the 100 gas if it's almost always going to get killed.
give zergs the option to retract it back into the ground after it completes. 75% money back.
Yes I agree, seems to me the second worm should be "salvaged" leaving you with the main worm back at home that you spent money on.
On March 02 2012 06:43 Gamegene wrote:
bunkers are minerals and meant for defense. nydus worms are offensive/unusual structures like the sensor tower which costs 125 gas.
Defense huh ? Tell that to every pro that sends an scv and 2 marines at the front of every zerg's nat to get a bunker up and force lings out; he is defending ? Oh well I'll just run my marines back and salvage the bunker. Would you do it if you didn't get to salvage the structure ? If it is because it's a gas building then fine, make the main nydus as it is now but the other part change it from 100/100 to 150 mins only; hell I'll even reduce the salvage percentaje to 60% so it's not as cheesy as the bunker.
The fact of the matter is that a nydus is way way too expensive for what it does, the only thing I could use it for is to reinforce a push with hydras, everything else in the zerg arsenal is pretty fast or has a speed upgrade like the roaches (broods don't count since they can't use it) and for defense is only useful for saving drones from a base but the slow unloading will never let you save a base in time; it's faster to send your units the "regular" way. I think it's a pretty cool concept but the cost makes it a no go since every zerg values gas more than his life in the mid-game.
its far less effective than a drop, because of unload speed, build time etc. and using them to sneak units into your opponents base means relying 100% on catching them off-gaurd, which of course is taboo to standard play, and can be dangerous when they do catch it... i love the idea of nydus worms, i dont use them because i dont know how to... i suppose im waiting for metagame to catch up too.
On March 02 2012 06:39 TheDraken wrote: if terrans get to salvage their bunkers, i should get to salvage my frikin nyduses. it's just not worth the 100 gas if it's almost always going to get killed.
give zergs the option to retract it back into the ground after it completes. 75% money back.
Yah, I should be able to salvage my Nexus or any other tech structure that I don't have any use for and that might be killed. I don't see the use of having a templar archives when my opponent switches from banes to mass roach. It's just not worth having HT with storms at that point in the game. If terran gets to salvage their bunkers, I should be able to salvage my templar archives.
There is something called investing in a tech structure. If you could salvage a nydus worm, this would be a free tech route that would make the mechanic imbalanced.
The nydus worm is the only structure that cannot be canceled before completion if it is not wanted. Every protoss structure can be canceled before completion for 75% of the cost. Nydus should not be salvageable, but it should be able to be canceled if it will obviously not complete
There is one map in the season 5 ladder pool that was great for 2 base hydra + nydus vs. FFE, Arid Plateau, where you make the nydus in the high ground third base and attack down the ramp.
This might work on the Entombed Valley but you would need to break the rocks and the position is much more defensible for the protoss since it is a narrow choke with no high ground to attack from.
Hydra is still good for a 2 base timing vs protoss because you can pressure the front and kill off gates/core/forge used to build the wall if you get the range upgrade, but it is probably more cost effective to use overlords to make a creep highway.
One other map I have had success with a nydus + hydra attack is on metalopolis. I was vs a SG protoss and I stuck the nydus in the corner outside the natural by the mengst statue. That was a fun game, but I don't think I am high enough level too say it is actually an effective strategy vs good players.
People need to use them more in lategame. Nydus worm is the equivalent of a nuke from Terrans, or a warp prism from protosses.
Also, another thing most Zergs have not done yet is use nydus worms with a single queen inside of it to spread creep to expansions on the map and forward locations. It's an example of a very powerful use for nydus worms that has not caught on yet.
It boggles my mind that I don't see Zergs who are banking a thousand+ resources put up a Nydus at each of their furthest expansions in the late game. What's a bigger loss when an expansion gets dropped/attacked, the Nydus and the Hatchery, or the Hatchery and all of the drones? I'm not a professional player of coarse, but it seems like common sense to me.
On March 02 2012 09:11 avilo wrote: People need to use them more in lategame. Nydus worm is the equivalent of a nuke from Terrans, or a warp prism from protosses. on yet.
I'll agree with your comparison to the nuke, in that it is a huge (potentially repeat) investment which might never pay for its cost. But the warp prism, hell no!
The warp prism can be built early and maintain its usefulness throughout the game with no additional investment beyond the initial minerals required to build it. The warp prism can be re positioned at any time for no cost; to re position a nydus worm exit costs 100/100. There is no room for comparison between nydus and warp prism.
It can work upto a certain effectiveness, I used to go ling heavy for ZvP after the infestor nerf and I would still rush hive but obviously, now that infestors cannot neural parasite as efficiently as possible, I have made less infestors, constantly building nydus to keep the toss in his base while I just get more ultras out. And I could just mass expand as well
If he decided to all-in before my hive is done, I can force a base trade
I did this all the way until I hit diamond and it kinds of stopped because I stopped this style as I am not so comfortable with base trade
Against terran, it's a bit more difficult imo. Terran army is a bit more mobile overall and it could be problematic if you try to load up the lings while he drops. The only time I actually had a good success with it was against a gold league where I distracted his marines with nydus and then used overlord drop lings on to his tanks.
Also in late game, Terran would have PTs as their base and Protoss could mass cannon up. It gets too difficult for lings to do any damage at all even with maxed upgrades. But if you put ultras in the nydus, it can be a bit risky to lose an ultra just for a chance to harass
On March 01 2012 13:47 Torte de Lini wrote: Can't be canceled. Expensive to build. Expensive to make a Nydus. Obvious and limited use. units come out one at a time when you unload
On March 02 2012 09:13 GP wrote: It boggles my mind that I don't see Zergs who are banking a thousand+ resources put up a Nydus at each of their furthest expansions in the late game. What's a bigger loss when an expansion gets dropped/attacked, the Nydus and the Hatchery, or the Hatchery and all of the drones? I'm not a professional player of coarse, but it seems like common sense to me.
1. You'll need those thousands of resources to remax your army usually. 2. Nydus is almost useless to defend this way. First because it has so little health it will be focussed down almost immediately. Second, because units come out one by one, they're easy to pick off by the drop.
On March 02 2012 09:11 avilo wrote: People need to use them more in lategame. Nydus worm is the equivalent of a nuke from Terrans, or a warp prism from protosses.
Also, another thing most Zergs have not done yet is use nydus worms with a single queen inside of it to spread creep to expansions on the map and forward locations. It's an example of a very powerful use for nydus worms that has not caught on yet.
It would make more sense to put the queen into an overlord and spread the creep, at least it does not warn your opponent about what you are doing. Overlords and Nyduses roles overlap completely, no wonder why Nyduses are underused.
On March 02 2012 09:13 GP wrote: It boggles my mind that I don't see Zergs who are banking a thousand+ resources put up a Nydus at each of their furthest expansions in the late game. What's a bigger loss when an expansion gets dropped/attacked, the Nydus and the Hatchery, or the Hatchery and all of the drones? I'm not a professional player of coarse, but it seems like common sense to me.
1. You'll need those thousands of resources to remax your army usually. 2. Nydus is almost useless to defend this way. First because it has so little health it will be focussed down almost immediately. Second, because units come out one by one, they're easy to pick off by the drop.
Not for defense, purely to save the drones, which also helps with that remaxing thing, you know. I think the investment in the Nydus is well worth it and much more cost effective in the long run if you're saving fifteen+ drones.
On March 02 2012 09:13 GP wrote: It boggles my mind that I don't see Zergs who are banking a thousand+ resources put up a Nydus at each of their furthest expansions in the late game. What's a bigger loss when an expansion gets dropped/attacked, the Nydus and the Hatchery, or the Hatchery and all of the drones? I'm not a professional player of coarse, but it seems like common sense to me.
1. You'll need those thousands of resources to remax your army usually. 2. Nydus is almost useless to defend this way. First because it has so little health it will be focussed down almost immediately. Second, because units come out one by one, they're easy to pick off by the drop.
1. That doesn't mean that spending a realtively small amount of resources on a nydus network is a bad idea. infact, it could help to have the units at the far courners of the map rally into the nydus instead of going all that distance on the remax.
2. The problem with the nydus is that people put zerglings in them. You need singularly strong units like ultras to come out of the nydus otherwise, as you say, they will get picked off by the drop. The nydus health is definitely an issue however, but if the drop kills the nydus first they will buy time for the the 'normal' defence units to arrive (mutas/ling/infestors) and if they don't then instantly units can be there to help deal with drop.
sigh why is another OP like this made. There have been several on this that have been shut down before. Nydus worms are very circumstantial.
1) They are very easily killed and take a fair while to build/cost a lot as well. 2) If you rely on a nydus worm and an opponent spots it you are screwed. 3) ZERG IS A MASS ARMY TYPE OF RACE. Nydus worms unload units slowly. Ever try to unload 100 lings into a fight froma nydus worm? Its not too pretty. 4) Any pro who lets a nydus worm get off in his main because he has no vision of it is just bad and isn't a pro. There is never an excuse to not have your base fully scouted against a zerg player. That's just a complete rookie mistake.
I am sorry but this shouldn't be an OP on this. Its obvious and has been discussed multiple times already.
On March 02 2012 09:13 GP wrote: It boggles my mind that I don't see Zergs who are banking a thousand+ resources put up a Nydus at each of their furthest expansions in the late game. What's a bigger loss when an expansion gets dropped/attacked, the Nydus and the Hatchery, or the Hatchery and all of the drones? I'm not a professional player of coarse, but it seems like common sense to me.
1. You'll need those thousands of resources to remax your army usually. 2. Nydus is almost useless to defend this way. First because it has so little health it will be focussed down almost immediately. Second, because units come out one by one, they're easy to pick off by the drop.
Not for defense, purely to save the drones, which also helps with that remaxing thing, you know. I think the investment in the Nydus is well worth it and much more cost effective in the long run if you're saving fifteen+ drones.
Didn't really think of it that way. Not a bad idea to toy around with.
On March 02 2012 09:13 GP wrote: It boggles my mind that I don't see Zergs who are banking a thousand+ resources put up a Nydus at each of their furthest expansions in the late game. What's a bigger loss when an expansion gets dropped/attacked, the Nydus and the Hatchery, or the Hatchery and all of the drones? I'm not a professional player of coarse, but it seems like common sense to me.
1. You'll need those thousands of resources to remax your army usually. 2. Nydus is almost useless to defend this way. First because it has so little health it will be focussed down almost immediately. Second, because units come out one by one, they're easy to pick off by the drop.
1. That doesn't mean that spending a realtively small amount of resources on a nydus network is a bad idea. infact, it could help to have the units at the far courners of the map rally into the nydus instead of going all that distance on the remax.
2. The problem with the nydus is that people put zerglings in them. You need singularly strong units like ultras to come out of the nydus otherwise, as you say, they will get picked off by the drop. The nydus health is definitely an issue however, but if the drop kills the nydus first they will buy time for the the 'normal' defence units to arrive (mutas/ling/infestors) and if they don't then instantly units can be there to help deal with drop.
1. It's a small amount, but not trivial, especially when a late-game zerg is gas constrained. Putting a nydus at two or three far expands will cost you around 500 gas. That's not a small amount.
2. If an 8 marine drop decides to kill the nydus first, it will buy you about 1 second at most.
Drop is better in every single way, it's even cheaper unless you only plan on using 1 nydus. It relies on your opponent making a mistake <- is the critical one I think
Prepare to be scienced bitches... (ok that might be a bit dramatic).
Replay analysis of how a pro could have won a high profile game safely with Nydus Worm: If you've watched Winter Assembly or don't care about spoilers I really appreciate you reading this, it's a detailed description of how Nydus could have changed a game. + Show Spoiler [Winter Assembly Spoilers] +
Skip ahead to 10:30 and lets look at Stephano's situation. -Spire just finished -He's making 7 mutalisks -He has 1k/160 in the bank and he invests 100 of that into air upgrade 1 + floats gas + starts melee upgrade 1 later. It's entirely reasonable to say at this point Stephano should have 150/200 spare at this point by not floating minerals (a mistake he made) and his ability to defend would be unchanged (as he spends gas on a 2nd upgrade before the next muta he makes is completed, so in total he spent 250 gas on stuff that doesn't help until much much later).
Thus at this point, 10:30 exactly. Stephano could make a Nydus Network with absolutely no risk of anything different happening over the next 50s compared to what he chose to do (air attack +1). Much later his air attack would be delayed, but I'm going to show how much he could have gained via Nydus play.
Now lets go ahead to 11:10. Where we have this:
Why is this important, lets look at our situation.
Nydus network would be done instantly at this moment if build when air attack was researched..
Polt has a 3rd that's open, but defended.
Stephano has just moved mutalisks in and the base is relatively undefended
Polt's army is far away from the base. How far?
There's 6s before Polt moves any marines
The closest marines are moved back at 11:36 and arrive at the mineral line at 11:50 that's 14 seconds.
The area centered on the picture is about 4 seconds further away than that.
That's a total (not counting reaction time) of 18seconds.
That means Polt would have 2 seconds to react to even have a non-0% chance to get to worm before it emerged, which is a far cry from the 6s it took him to react and it assumes he runs right for the worm rather than to protect his SCVs (which Stephano can follow with mutas if Polt moves by rather than a-moves).
His 13 marines available dealing 10.5dps would take 2 seconds to kill the worm which is enough time for 4 banelings to emerge. Yet this assumes he stims his marines a 2nd time giving them only 25hp to survive the mutalisks that could be there. Otherwise he has 4s to get units out free of charge. Of course this ignores any marines that die from the 7 mutalisks that can attack them (each muta volley would just kill one marine outright I believe if he doesn't re-stim).
Likewise he also has to choose between protecting the SCVs, or attacking the worm unless he pulls the SCVs TO the worm which he could do, but that puts them right in the line of fire for the mutas and since we know the worm is almost sure to survive it's a big risk. Now SCV's do 2.67dps to the worm so their dps isn't that significant and if they're pulled immediately to the worm there are 7 mutas there getting to take free shots on them for 14s (when the marines arrive). Even if the worm was killed in this way the SCV loss is a huge hit to Polt well worth the worm's cost (and network, but Stephano gets to keep that regardless). We know pulling the SCVs to hit the worm is a huge risk as Stephano because Stephano has banelings. If they are first out of the worm they will detonate and annhilate large scv #s, something that would be a huge blow to Polt.
Additional army is, at this point, 15-20s away and there's only a minimal force on the 3rd that Stephano can scout/spot. Unless you sac the SCVs, this worm is completing. Even that nearby tank is about 12s away + 4s unsiege and if it moves before the marines arrive it's vulnerable to the mutas (plus the tank costs more than the worm). If Stephano put his network at his nat (towards the ramp down) lings could be 5s away from both the nydus AND Polt's 3rd by standing near the Xel'Naga, which means that up until 5s left on the worm Stephano can threaten the 3rd if additional forces are pulled back to prepare for the worm finishing. Since those marines are about 25s-30s away from the nydus worm, that gives Stephano a huge timing advantage. Polt has to pull them RIGHT AWAY if he wants to defend a full on nydus in his base, but Stephano can wait 15s to decide if he wants to hit the 3rd or hit the main.
The tanks are there, but keep in mind that all Stephano needs to do to win is kill the marines really (Polt would be defenseless vs the mutalisks). None of them can get there in time to kill the worm before units emerge either with 4s to unsiege and their slow movespeed.
Stephano has enough units at this point to kill Polt so long as polt can't make use of a defensive position (sieged up siege tanks). Since we're forcing Polt to pull back to the main if we hit there, his tanks won't be sieged for most of the battle.
What if Polt's units were better positioned? Well what would that look like. Would it be any better to Stephano's option of pulling his muta's back and hitting else where sans worm? I fail to see some magic configuration that Polt should have known to do that would be well equipped to handle this attack + the threat of a full frontal attack. Not to mention if Stephano was planning on this type of strategy he could easily scout the unit positioning with a ling poke ahead of time. By seeing the # of marines gathered near the 3rd + the fact that Polt has a 3rd, he would know the main is relatively undefended.
Now you might also say, "It's a risk! What about late game" Well we know Stephano likes Ultras late game in many situations. Shakuras may not be the best map for late game nydus play, but we do know it's something that can be effective . So maybe he is delaying air attack or skipping it, but so long as he protects that network he's setup late game to make better use of Ultras. So he can deal tons of damage now or if it doesn't pan out is setup to do well later with a nydus up.
So lets recap:
Stephano could have made a Nydus Network at no-risk to his immediate safety.
Stephano could have made a worm right as he harasses with mutalisks with 0 risk to the mutas.
Polt would have have almost 0 chance to kill the worm before at least 2-4 units emerge and have time to attack. With his actual reaction time it would be at least 12 units out of the worm before he even starts attacking it.
Stephano had banelings that could almost instantly remove all threats on the worm, or at least force them to stop attacking the worm (never mind the mutas themselves)
Without sieged siege tanks Stephano's army is superior.
Polt's additional reinforcements aren't in range of the worm until 5-10s after it completes
If Polt pulls back all units his 3rd is completely open (as is his natural). Yet Stephano doesn't need to commit to hitting the main vs 3rd until 5s before the worm finishes (10s after Polt has to pull back).
Conclusion/TL;DR Thus I contend that I've shown a real world example with PRO players where a Nydus Worm would have offered a UNIQUE chance to win or gain an advantage that no other thing in the Zerg army could have done. This is the finals game of a big tournament that could have been won with a Nydus.
I don't think this is a unique situation either and I'd love to go through other games if people want me to. This isn't some convuluted situation either. Any time a T builds in this manner with a more reactionary muta defense, they're open to this type of timing attack, it's not something that happens every game (map matters a lot as other factors). Nor does it require much setup, the only demand is you delay air attack and instead make the network.
I also saw this coming from awhile away as I watched the game. I was practically yelling (aka typing to a friend in chat) about how this game could have been wrapped up by the safe construction of a Nydus Network. And for what it's worth I play Zerg.
As I'm sure many have said, the reason I don't use nydus is primarily this- Units unload too goddamn slow.
The cost isn't that prohibitive, really, but as it stands now researching Ovie speed (which is always useful) + Drop tech is just easier to move an army around than Nydus. You'd be surprised how excruciatingly long it takes for units to funnel out of a Nydus, and god forbid you get any lings in there, or you'll be waiting all night.
If they increased Nydus unload speed, it'd have a distinct use that ovie drops do not have. It would be better for defense and would punish an opponent who doesn't scout his base properly. Ovie drops would still be better for certain tactical situations (dropping banelings) and for doom drops on opponents that have properly scouted their bases.
The main reasons why I do not incorporate nydus worms into my play is that:
1. Unload speed is too slow, and:
2. The noise it makes upon surfacing is unnescessary, and limits what you can do with the worm. If I want to take a hidden expo, it does not help to have to purchase two canals to make a distraction or let the opponent know that I have taken a hidden base.
On March 02 2012 09:58 Logo wrote: Prepare to be scienced bitches... (ok that might be a bit dramatic).
Replay analysis of how a pro could have won a high profile game safely with Nydus Worm: If you've watched Winter Assembly or don't care about spoilers I really appreciate you reading this, it's a detailed description of how Nydus could have changed a game. + Show Spoiler [Winter Assembly Spoilers] +
Skip ahead to 10:30 and lets look at Stephano's situation. -Spire just finished -He's making 7 mutalisks -He has 1k/160 in the bank and he invests 100 of that into air upgrade 1 + floats gas + starts melee upgrade 1 later. It's entirely reasonable to say at this point Stephano should have 150/200 spare at this point by not floating minerals (a mistake he made) and his ability to defend would be unchanged (as he spends gas on a 2nd upgrade before the next muta he makes is completed, so in total he spent 250 gas on stuff that doesn't help until much much later).
Thus at this point, 10:30 exactly. Stephano could make a Nydus Worm with absolutely no risk of anything different happening over the next 50s compared to what he chose to do (air attack +1). Much later his air attack would be delayed, but I'm going to show how much he could have gained via Nydus play.
Now lets go ahead to 11:10. Where we have this:
Why is this important, lets look at our situation.
Nydus canal would be done instantly at this moment if build when air attack was researched..
Polt has a 3rd that's open, but defended.
Stephano has just moved mutalisks in and the base is relatively undefended
Polt's army is far away from the base. How far?
There's 6s before Polt moves any marines
The closest marines are moved back at 11:36 and arrive at the mineral line at 11:50 that's 14 seconds.
The area centered on the picture is about 4 seconds further away than that.
That's a total (not counting reaction time) of 18seconds.
That means Polt would have 2 seconds to react to even have a non-0% chance to get to worm before it emerged, which is a far cry from the 6s it took him to react and it assumes he runs right for the worm rather than to protect his SCVs (which Stephano can follow with mutas if Polt moves by rather than a-moves).
His 13 marines available dealing 10.5dps would take 2 seconds to kill the worm which is enough time for 4 banelings to emerge. Yet this assumes he stims his marines a 2nd time giving them only 25hp to survive the mutalisks that could be there. Otherwise he has 4s to get units out free of charge. Of course this ignores any marines that die from the 7 mutalisks that can attack them (each muta volley would just kill one marine outright I believe if he doesn't re-stim).
Likewise he also has to choose between protecting the SCVs, or attacking the worm unless he pulls the SCVs TO the worm which he could do, but that puts them right in the line of fire for the mutas and since we know the worm is almost sure to survive it's a big risk. Now SCV's do 2.67dps to the worm so their dps isn't that significant and if they're pulled immediately to the worm there are 7 mutas there getting to take free shots on them for 14s (when the marines arrive). Even if the worm was killed in this way the SCV loss is a huge hit to Polt well worth the worm's cost (and canal, but Stephano gets to keep that regardless). We know pulling the SCVs to hit the worm is a huge risk as Stephano because Stephano has banelings. If they are first out of the worm they will detonate and annhilate large scv #s, something that would be a huge blow to Polt.
Additional army is, at this point, 15-20s away and there's only a minimal force on the 3rd that Stephano can scout/spot. Unless you sac the SCVs, this worm is completing. Even that nearby tank is about 12s away + 4s unsiege and if it moves before the marines arrive it's vulnerable to the mutas (plus the tank costs more than the worm). If Stephano put his canal at his nat (towards the ramp down) lings could be 5s away from both the nydus AND Polt's 3rd by standing near the Xel'Naga, which means that up until 5s left on the worm Stephano can threaten the 3rd if additional forces are pulled back to prepare for the worm finishing. Since those marines are about 25s-30s away from the nydus worm, that gives Stephano a huge timing advantage. Polt has to pull them RIGHT AWAY if he wants to defend a full on nydus in his base, but Stephano can wait 15s to decide if he wants to hit the 3rd or hit the main.
The tanks are there, but keep in mind that all Stephano needs to do to win is kill the marines really (Polt would be defenseless vs the mutalisks). None of them can get there in time to kill the worm before units emerge either with 4s to unsiege and their slow movespeed.
Stephano has enough units at this point to kill Polt so long as polt can't make use of a defensive position (sieged up siege tanks). Since we're forcing Polt to pull back to the main if we hit there, his tanks won't be sieged for most of the battle.
What if Polt's units were better positioned? Well what would that look like. Would it be any better to Stephano's option of pulling his muta's back and hitting else where sans worm? I fail to see some magic configuration that Polt should have known to do that would be well equipped to handle this attack + the threat of a full frontal attack. Not to mention if Stephano was planning on this type of strategy he could easily scout the unit positioning with a ling poke ahead of time. By seeing the # of marines gathered near the 3rd + the fact that Polt has a 3rd, he would know the main is relatively undefended.
Now you might also say, "It's a risk! What about late game" Well we know Stephano likes Ultras late game in many situations. Shakuras may not be the best map for late game nydus play, but we do know it's something that can be effective . So maybe he is delaying air attack or skipping it, but so long as he protects that canal he's setup late game to make better use of Ultras. So he can deal tons of damage now or if it doesn't pan out is setup to do well later with a nydus up.
So lets recap:
Stephano could have made a Nydus Canal at no-risk to his immediate safety.
Stephano could have made a worm right as he harasses with mutalisks with 0 risk to the mutas.
Polt would have have almost 0 chance to kill the worm before at least 2-4 units emerge and have time to attack. With his actual reaction time it would be at least 12 units out of the worm before he even starts attacking it.
Stephano had banelings that could almost instantly remove all threats on the worm, or at least force them to stop attacking the worm (never mind the mutas themselves)
Without sieged siege tanks Stephano's army is superior.
Polt's additional reinforcements aren't in range of the worm until 5-10s after it completes
If Polt pulls back all units his 3rd is completely open (as is his natural). Yet Stephano doesn't need to commit to hitting the main vs 3rd until 5s before the worm finishes (10s after Polt has to pull back).
Conclusion/TL;DR Thus I contend that I've shown a real world example with PRO players where a Nydus Worm would have offered a UNIQUE chance to win or gain an advantage that no other thing in the Zerg army could have done. This is the finals game of a big tournament that could have been won with a Nydus.
I don't think this is a unique situation either and I'd love to go through other games if people want me to. This isn't some convuluted situation either. Any time a T builds in this manner with a more reactionary muta defense, they're open to this type of timing attack, it's not something that happens every game (map matters a lot as other factors). Nor does it require much setup, the only demand is you delay air attack and instead make the canal.
I also saw this coming from awhile away as I watched the game. I was practically yelling (aka typing to a friend in chat) about how this game could have been wrapped up by the safe construction of a Nydus Canal. And for what it's worth I play Zerg.
It's easy to say these kind of things with hindsight. When you're playing a Muta/Baneling/Zergling style you're relying on a small stockpile of gas to immediately morph Banelings to deal with an attack.. if you build the nydus+worm you're really gas-starved and make yourself extremely vulnerable to an attack. Stephano also has no idea how many Marines Polt has or where they are.. and that number will vary depending on Polt's build. If he did have a group of marines in his main (and most Terrans will) the nydus is completely useless. Even if it finishes it's spitting out Zerglings/Banelings one by one which are just going to get cleaned up by a small group of Marines anyways.
Hell I don't even see how having a nydus in Polt's base would be of any use when he has his army relatively close to his mainn.
On March 02 2012 09:58 Logo wrote: Prepare to be scienced bitches... (ok that might be a bit dramatic).
Replay analysis of how a pro could have won a high profile game safely with Nydus Worm: If you've watched Winter Assembly or don't care about spoilers I really appreciate you reading this, it's a detailed description of how Nydus could have changed a game. + Show Spoiler [Winter Assembly Spoilers] +
Skip ahead to 10:30 and lets look at Stephano's situation. -Spire just finished -He's making 7 mutalisks -He has 1k/160 in the bank and he invests 100 of that into air upgrade 1 + floats gas + starts melee upgrade 1 later. It's entirely reasonable to say at this point Stephano should have 150/200 spare at this point by not floating minerals (a mistake he made) and his ability to defend would be unchanged (as he spends gas on a 2nd upgrade before the next muta he makes is completed, so in total he spent 250 gas on stuff that doesn't help until much much later).
Thus at this point, 10:30 exactly. Stephano could make a Nydus Worm with absolutely no risk of anything different happening over the next 50s compared to what he chose to do (air attack +1). Much later his air attack would be delayed, but I'm going to show how much he could have gained via Nydus play.
Now lets go ahead to 11:10. Where we have this:
Why is this important, lets look at our situation.
Nydus canal would be done instantly at this moment if build when air attack was researched..
Polt has a 3rd that's open, but defended.
Stephano has just moved mutalisks in and the base is relatively undefended
Polt's army is far away from the base. How far?
There's 6s before Polt moves any marines
The closest marines are moved back at 11:36 and arrive at the mineral line at 11:50 that's 14 seconds.
The area centered on the picture is about 4 seconds further away than that.
That's a total (not counting reaction time) of 18seconds.
That means Polt would have 2 seconds to react to even have a non-0% chance to get to worm before it emerged, which is a far cry from the 6s it took him to react and it assumes he runs right for the worm rather than to protect his SCVs (which Stephano can follow with mutas if Polt moves by rather than a-moves).
His 13 marines available dealing 10.5dps would take 2 seconds to kill the worm which is enough time for 4 banelings to emerge. Yet this assumes he stims his marines a 2nd time giving them only 25hp to survive the mutalisks that could be there. Otherwise he has 4s to get units out free of charge. Of course this ignores any marines that die from the 7 mutalisks that can attack them (each muta volley would just kill one marine outright I believe if he doesn't re-stim).
Likewise he also has to choose between protecting the SCVs, or attacking the worm unless he pulls the SCVs TO the worm which he could do, but that puts them right in the line of fire for the mutas and since we know the worm is almost sure to survive it's a big risk. Now SCV's do 2.67dps to the worm so their dps isn't that significant and if they're pulled immediately to the worm there are 7 mutas there getting to take free shots on them for 14s (when the marines arrive). Even if the worm was killed in this way the SCV loss is a huge hit to Polt well worth the worm's cost (and canal, but Stephano gets to keep that regardless). We know pulling the SCVs to hit the worm is a huge risk as Stephano because Stephano has banelings. If they are first out of the worm they will detonate and annhilate large scv #s, something that would be a huge blow to Polt.
Additional army is, at this point, 15-20s away and there's only a minimal force on the 3rd that Stephano can scout/spot. Unless you sac the SCVs, this worm is completing. Even that nearby tank is about 12s away + 4s unsiege and if it moves before the marines arrive it's vulnerable to the mutas (plus the tank costs more than the worm). If Stephano put his canal at his nat (towards the ramp down) lings could be 5s away from both the nydus AND Polt's 3rd by standing near the Xel'Naga, which means that up until 5s left on the worm Stephano can threaten the 3rd if additional forces are pulled back to prepare for the worm finishing. Since those marines are about 25s-30s away from the nydus worm, that gives Stephano a huge timing advantage. Polt has to pull them RIGHT AWAY if he wants to defend a full on nydus in his base, but Stephano can wait 15s to decide if he wants to hit the 3rd or hit the main.
The tanks are there, but keep in mind that all Stephano needs to do to win is kill the marines really (Polt would be defenseless vs the mutalisks). None of them can get there in time to kill the worm before units emerge either with 4s to unsiege and their slow movespeed.
Stephano has enough units at this point to kill Polt so long as polt can't make use of a defensive position (sieged up siege tanks). Since we're forcing Polt to pull back to the main if we hit there, his tanks won't be sieged for most of the battle.
What if Polt's units were better positioned? Well what would that look like. Would it be any better to Stephano's option of pulling his muta's back and hitting else where sans worm? I fail to see some magic configuration that Polt should have known to do that would be well equipped to handle this attack + the threat of a full frontal attack. Not to mention if Stephano was planning on this type of strategy he could easily scout the unit positioning with a ling poke ahead of time. By seeing the # of marines gathered near the 3rd + the fact that Polt has a 3rd, he would know the main is relatively undefended.
Now you might also say, "It's a risk! What about late game" Well we know Stephano likes Ultras late game in many situations. Shakuras may not be the best map for late game nydus play, but we do know it's something that can be effective . So maybe he is delaying air attack or skipping it, but so long as he protects that canal he's setup late game to make better use of Ultras. So he can deal tons of damage now or if it doesn't pan out is setup to do well later with a nydus up.
So lets recap:
Stephano could have made a Nydus Canal at no-risk to his immediate safety.
Stephano could have made a worm right as he harasses with mutalisks with 0 risk to the mutas.
Polt would have have almost 0 chance to kill the worm before at least 2-4 units emerge and have time to attack. With his actual reaction time it would be at least 12 units out of the worm before he even starts attacking it.
Stephano had banelings that could almost instantly remove all threats on the worm, or at least force them to stop attacking the worm (never mind the mutas themselves)
Without sieged siege tanks Stephano's army is superior.
Polt's additional reinforcements aren't in range of the worm until 5-10s after it completes
If Polt pulls back all units his 3rd is completely open (as is his natural). Yet Stephano doesn't need to commit to hitting the main vs 3rd until 5s before the worm finishes (10s after Polt has to pull back).
Conclusion/TL;DR Thus I contend that I've shown a real world example with PRO players where a Nydus Worm would have offered a UNIQUE chance to win or gain an advantage that no other thing in the Zerg army could have done. This is the finals game of a big tournament that could have been won with a Nydus.
I don't think this is a unique situation either and I'd love to go through other games if people want me to. This isn't some convuluted situation either. Any time a T builds in this manner with a more reactionary muta defense, they're open to this type of timing attack, it's not something that happens every game (map matters a lot as other factors). Nor does it require much setup, the only demand is you delay air attack and instead make the canal.
I also saw this coming from awhile away as I watched the game. I was practically yelling (aka typing to a friend in chat) about how this game could have been wrapped up by the safe construction of a Nydus Canal. And for what it's worth I play Zerg.
It's easy to say these kind of things with hindsight. When you're playing a Muta/Baneling/Zergling style you're relying on a small stockpile of gas to immediately morph Banelings to deal with an attack.. if you build the nydus+worm you're really gas-starved and make yourself extremely vulnerable to an attack. Stephano also has no idea how many Marines Polt has or where they are.. and that number will vary depending on Polt's build. If he did have a group of marines in his main (and most Terrans will) the nydus is completely useless. Even if it finishes it's spitting out Zerglings/Banelings one by one which are just going to get cleaned up by a small group of Marines anyways.
Hell I don't even see how having a nydus in Polt's base would be of any use when he has his army relatively close to his mainn.
There's no hindsight needed. You didn't even read my post in a way to comprehend it as I address ALL your issues. Maybe rather than jumping to conclusions and making big assumptions you should slow down and read with an open mind.
Stephano saw the 3rd before investing in the air upgrade. He spend money on the attack upgrades which are a longer vulnerability than the worm. The 3rd tells you something about the marine count. He had a delayed 3rd so his eye was on aggression anyways. The marines WEREN'T THERE AND COULDN'T HAVE BEEN THERE. 13 marines under attack by 7 mutas and an additional ling/bling every .5s are marines that aren't going to live long.
Polts army was only stronger because of sieged siege tanks and superior positioning. Look at how Stephano nearly overruns the 3rd immediately after the muta harass. And if Polt concentrates all his units in one position in his base the entire rest of his base is open to muta harass or ling attacks.
Even if it is 'hindsight' uh... so fucking what. That's the point of replay analysis. You look at things in hindsight, then learn lessons and apply them forward. The popular opinion is that Nydus Worms are useless, I showed a great example of them having a unique use, thus they aren't useless and can win games, even pro ones.
On March 02 2012 09:58 Logo wrote: Prepare to be scienced bitches... (ok that might be a bit dramatic).
Replay analysis of how a pro could have won a high profile game safely with Nydus Worm: If you've watched Winter Assembly or don't care about spoilers I really appreciate you reading this, it's a detailed description of how Nydus could have changed a game. + Show Spoiler [Winter Assembly Spoilers] +
Skip ahead to 10:30 and lets look at Stephano's situation. -Spire just finished -He's making 7 mutalisks -He has 1k/160 in the bank and he invests 100 of that into air upgrade 1 + floats gas + starts melee upgrade 1 later. It's entirely reasonable to say at this point Stephano should have 150/200 spare at this point by not floating minerals (a mistake he made) and his ability to defend would be unchanged (as he spends gas on a 2nd upgrade before the next muta he makes is completed, so in total he spent 250 gas on stuff that doesn't help until much much later).
Thus at this point, 10:30 exactly. Stephano could make a Nydus Worm with absolutely no risk of anything different happening over the next 50s compared to what he chose to do (air attack +1). Much later his air attack would be delayed, but I'm going to show how much he could have gained via Nydus play.
Now lets go ahead to 11:10. Where we have this:
Why is this important, lets look at our situation.
Nydus canal would be done instantly at this moment if build when air attack was researched..
Polt has a 3rd that's open, but defended.
Stephano has just moved mutalisks in and the base is relatively undefended
Polt's army is far away from the base. How far?
There's 6s before Polt moves any marines
The closest marines are moved back at 11:36 and arrive at the mineral line at 11:50 that's 14 seconds.
The area centered on the picture is about 4 seconds further away than that.
That's a total (not counting reaction time) of 18seconds.
That means Polt would have 2 seconds to react to even have a non-0% chance to get to worm before it emerged, which is a far cry from the 6s it took him to react and it assumes he runs right for the worm rather than to protect his SCVs (which Stephano can follow with mutas if Polt moves by rather than a-moves).
His 13 marines available dealing 10.5dps would take 2 seconds to kill the worm which is enough time for 4 banelings to emerge. Yet this assumes he stims his marines a 2nd time giving them only 25hp to survive the mutalisks that could be there. Otherwise he has 4s to get units out free of charge. Of course this ignores any marines that die from the 7 mutalisks that can attack them (each muta volley would just kill one marine outright I believe if he doesn't re-stim).
Likewise he also has to choose between protecting the SCVs, or attacking the worm unless he pulls the SCVs TO the worm which he could do, but that puts them right in the line of fire for the mutas and since we know the worm is almost sure to survive it's a big risk. Now SCV's do 2.67dps to the worm so their dps isn't that significant and if they're pulled immediately to the worm there are 7 mutas there getting to take free shots on them for 14s (when the marines arrive). Even if the worm was killed in this way the SCV loss is a huge hit to Polt well worth the worm's cost (and canal, but Stephano gets to keep that regardless). We know pulling the SCVs to hit the worm is a huge risk as Stephano because Stephano has banelings. If they are first out of the worm they will detonate and annhilate large scv #s, something that would be a huge blow to Polt.
Additional army is, at this point, 15-20s away and there's only a minimal force on the 3rd that Stephano can scout/spot. Unless you sac the SCVs, this worm is completing. Even that nearby tank is about 12s away + 4s unsiege and if it moves before the marines arrive it's vulnerable to the mutas (plus the tank costs more than the worm). If Stephano put his canal at his nat (towards the ramp down) lings could be 5s away from both the nydus AND Polt's 3rd by standing near the Xel'Naga, which means that up until 5s left on the worm Stephano can threaten the 3rd if additional forces are pulled back to prepare for the worm finishing. Since those marines are about 25s-30s away from the nydus worm, that gives Stephano a huge timing advantage. Polt has to pull them RIGHT AWAY if he wants to defend a full on nydus in his base, but Stephano can wait 15s to decide if he wants to hit the 3rd or hit the main.
The tanks are there, but keep in mind that all Stephano needs to do to win is kill the marines really (Polt would be defenseless vs the mutalisks). None of them can get there in time to kill the worm before units emerge either with 4s to unsiege and their slow movespeed.
Stephano has enough units at this point to kill Polt so long as polt can't make use of a defensive position (sieged up siege tanks). Since we're forcing Polt to pull back to the main if we hit there, his tanks won't be sieged for most of the battle.
What if Polt's units were better positioned? Well what would that look like. Would it be any better to Stephano's option of pulling his muta's back and hitting else where sans worm? I fail to see some magic configuration that Polt should have known to do that would be well equipped to handle this attack + the threat of a full frontal attack. Not to mention if Stephano was planning on this type of strategy he could easily scout the unit positioning with a ling poke ahead of time. By seeing the # of marines gathered near the 3rd + the fact that Polt has a 3rd, he would know the main is relatively undefended.
Now you might also say, "It's a risk! What about late game" Well we know Stephano likes Ultras late game in many situations. Shakuras may not be the best map for late game nydus play, but we do know it's something that can be effective . So maybe he is delaying air attack or skipping it, but so long as he protects that canal he's setup late game to make better use of Ultras. So he can deal tons of damage now or if it doesn't pan out is setup to do well later with a nydus up.
So lets recap:
Stephano could have made a Nydus Canal at no-risk to his immediate safety.
Stephano could have made a worm right as he harasses with mutalisks with 0 risk to the mutas.
Polt would have have almost 0 chance to kill the worm before at least 2-4 units emerge and have time to attack. With his actual reaction time it would be at least 12 units out of the worm before he even starts attacking it.
Stephano had banelings that could almost instantly remove all threats on the worm, or at least force them to stop attacking the worm (never mind the mutas themselves)
Without sieged siege tanks Stephano's army is superior.
Polt's additional reinforcements aren't in range of the worm until 5-10s after it completes
If Polt pulls back all units his 3rd is completely open (as is his natural). Yet Stephano doesn't need to commit to hitting the main vs 3rd until 5s before the worm finishes (10s after Polt has to pull back).
Conclusion/TL;DR Thus I contend that I've shown a real world example with PRO players where a Nydus Worm would have offered a UNIQUE chance to win or gain an advantage that no other thing in the Zerg army could have done. This is the finals game of a big tournament that could have been won with a Nydus.
I don't think this is a unique situation either and I'd love to go through other games if people want me to. This isn't some convuluted situation either. Any time a T builds in this manner with a more reactionary muta defense, they're open to this type of timing attack, it's not something that happens every game (map matters a lot as other factors). Nor does it require much setup, the only demand is you delay air attack and instead make the canal.
I also saw this coming from awhile away as I watched the game. I was practically yelling (aka typing to a friend in chat) about how this game could have been wrapped up by the safe construction of a Nydus Canal. And for what it's worth I play Zerg.
It's easy to say these kind of things with hindsight. When you're playing a Muta/Baneling/Zergling style you're relying on a small stockpile of gas to immediately morph Banelings to deal with an attack.. if you build the nydus+worm you're really gas-starved and make yourself extremely vulnerable to an attack. Stephano also has no idea how many Marines Polt has or where they are.. and that number will vary depending on Polt's build. If he did have a group of marines in his main (and most Terrans will) the nydus is completely useless. Even if it finishes it's spitting out Zerglings/Banelings one by one which are just going to get cleaned up by a small group of Marines anyways.
Hell I don't even see how having a nydus in Polt's base would be of any use when he has his army relatively close to his mainn.
There's no hindsight needed. You didn't even read my post in a way to comprehend it as I address ALL your issues. Maybe rather than jumping to conclusions and making big assumptions you should slow down and read with an open mind.
Stephano saw the 3rd before investing in the air upgrade. He spend money on the attack upgrades which are a longer vulnerability than the worm. The 3rd tells you something about the marine count. He had a delayed 3rd so his eye was on aggression anyways. The marines WEREN'T THERE AND COULDN'T HAVE BEEN THERE. 13 marines under attack by 7 mutas and an additional ling/bling every .5s are marines that aren't going to live long.
Polts army was only stronger because of sieged siege tanks and superior positioning. Look at how Stephano nearly overruns the 3rd immediately after the muta harass. And if Polt concentrates all his units in one position in his base the entire rest of his base is open to muta harass or ling attacks.
Even if it is 'hindsight' uh... so fucking what. That's the point of replay analysis. You look at things in hindsight, then learn lessons and apply them forward. The popular opinion is that Nydus Worms are useless, I showed a great example of them having a unique use, thus they aren't useless and can win games, even pro ones.
Your post is also full of spoilers.
TL removed its no spoilers policy.
Go open up the replay and look at the game again, Polt has 4 (almost 5) tanks and 6 barracks (4 reactored..) about to churn out marines. He's just going to reposition some Tanks, bring some Marines back and clean up the attack no problem with a ton of reinforcements. There's no discussion to this.
Your point about drawing the army away so you can attack somewhere else is completely unrelated.. the mutalisks already did this.
The 'hindsight' thing is referring to the fact that using the Nydus in these situations is just hoping he isn't prepraed. E.g. putting a Nydus down in ZvP in Protoss' main is just hoping he doesn't watch the minimap enough. It's not really reliable.
On March 02 2012 09:58 Logo wrote: Prepare to be scienced bitches... (ok that might be a bit dramatic).
Replay analysis of how a pro could have won a high profile game safely with Nydus Worm: If you've watched Winter Assembly or don't care about spoilers I really appreciate you reading this, it's a detailed description of how Nydus could have changed a game. + Show Spoiler [Winter Assembly Spoilers] +
Skip ahead to 10:30 and lets look at Stephano's situation. -Spire just finished -He's making 7 mutalisks -He has 1k/160 in the bank and he invests 100 of that into air upgrade 1 + floats gas + starts melee upgrade 1 later. It's entirely reasonable to say at this point Stephano should have 150/200 spare at this point by not floating minerals (a mistake he made) and his ability to defend would be unchanged (as he spends gas on a 2nd upgrade before the next muta he makes is completed, so in total he spent 250 gas on stuff that doesn't help until much much later).
Thus at this point, 10:30 exactly. Stephano could make a Nydus Worm with absolutely no risk of anything different happening over the next 50s compared to what he chose to do (air attack +1). Much later his air attack would be delayed, but I'm going to show how much he could have gained via Nydus play.
Now lets go ahead to 11:10. Where we have this:
Why is this important, lets look at our situation.
Nydus canal would be done instantly at this moment if build when air attack was researched..
Polt has a 3rd that's open, but defended.
Stephano has just moved mutalisks in and the base is relatively undefended
Polt's army is far away from the base. How far?
There's 6s before Polt moves any marines
The closest marines are moved back at 11:36 and arrive at the mineral line at 11:50 that's 14 seconds.
The area centered on the picture is about 4 seconds further away than that.
That's a total (not counting reaction time) of 18seconds.
That means Polt would have 2 seconds to react to even have a non-0% chance to get to worm before it emerged, which is a far cry from the 6s it took him to react and it assumes he runs right for the worm rather than to protect his SCVs (which Stephano can follow with mutas if Polt moves by rather than a-moves).
His 13 marines available dealing 10.5dps would take 2 seconds to kill the worm which is enough time for 4 banelings to emerge. Yet this assumes he stims his marines a 2nd time giving them only 25hp to survive the mutalisks that could be there. Otherwise he has 4s to get units out free of charge. Of course this ignores any marines that die from the 7 mutalisks that can attack them (each muta volley would just kill one marine outright I believe if he doesn't re-stim).
Likewise he also has to choose between protecting the SCVs, or attacking the worm unless he pulls the SCVs TO the worm which he could do, but that puts them right in the line of fire for the mutas and since we know the worm is almost sure to survive it's a big risk. Now SCV's do 2.67dps to the worm so their dps isn't that significant and if they're pulled immediately to the worm there are 7 mutas there getting to take free shots on them for 14s (when the marines arrive). Even if the worm was killed in this way the SCV loss is a huge hit to Polt well worth the worm's cost (and canal, but Stephano gets to keep that regardless). We know pulling the SCVs to hit the worm is a huge risk as Stephano because Stephano has banelings. If they are first out of the worm they will detonate and annhilate large scv #s, something that would be a huge blow to Polt.
Additional army is, at this point, 15-20s away and there's only a minimal force on the 3rd that Stephano can scout/spot. Unless you sac the SCVs, this worm is completing. Even that nearby tank is about 12s away + 4s unsiege and if it moves before the marines arrive it's vulnerable to the mutas (plus the tank costs more than the worm). If Stephano put his canal at his nat (towards the ramp down) lings could be 5s away from both the nydus AND Polt's 3rd by standing near the Xel'Naga, which means that up until 5s left on the worm Stephano can threaten the 3rd if additional forces are pulled back to prepare for the worm finishing. Since those marines are about 25s-30s away from the nydus worm, that gives Stephano a huge timing advantage. Polt has to pull them RIGHT AWAY if he wants to defend a full on nydus in his base, but Stephano can wait 15s to decide if he wants to hit the 3rd or hit the main.
The tanks are there, but keep in mind that all Stephano needs to do to win is kill the marines really (Polt would be defenseless vs the mutalisks). None of them can get there in time to kill the worm before units emerge either with 4s to unsiege and their slow movespeed.
Stephano has enough units at this point to kill Polt so long as polt can't make use of a defensive position (sieged up siege tanks). Since we're forcing Polt to pull back to the main if we hit there, his tanks won't be sieged for most of the battle.
What if Polt's units were better positioned? Well what would that look like. Would it be any better to Stephano's option of pulling his muta's back and hitting else where sans worm? I fail to see some magic configuration that Polt should have known to do that would be well equipped to handle this attack + the threat of a full frontal attack. Not to mention if Stephano was planning on this type of strategy he could easily scout the unit positioning with a ling poke ahead of time. By seeing the # of marines gathered near the 3rd + the fact that Polt has a 3rd, he would know the main is relatively undefended.
Now you might also say, "It's a risk! What about late game" Well we know Stephano likes Ultras late game in many situations. Shakuras may not be the best map for late game nydus play, but we do know it's something that can be effective . So maybe he is delaying air attack or skipping it, but so long as he protects that canal he's setup late game to make better use of Ultras. So he can deal tons of damage now or if it doesn't pan out is setup to do well later with a nydus up.
So lets recap:
Stephano could have made a Nydus Canal at no-risk to his immediate safety.
Stephano could have made a worm right as he harasses with mutalisks with 0 risk to the mutas.
Polt would have have almost 0 chance to kill the worm before at least 2-4 units emerge and have time to attack. With his actual reaction time it would be at least 12 units out of the worm before he even starts attacking it.
Stephano had banelings that could almost instantly remove all threats on the worm, or at least force them to stop attacking the worm (never mind the mutas themselves)
Without sieged siege tanks Stephano's army is superior.
Polt's additional reinforcements aren't in range of the worm until 5-10s after it completes
If Polt pulls back all units his 3rd is completely open (as is his natural). Yet Stephano doesn't need to commit to hitting the main vs 3rd until 5s before the worm finishes (10s after Polt has to pull back).
Conclusion/TL;DR Thus I contend that I've shown a real world example with PRO players where a Nydus Worm would have offered a UNIQUE chance to win or gain an advantage that no other thing in the Zerg army could have done. This is the finals game of a big tournament that could have been won with a Nydus.
I don't think this is a unique situation either and I'd love to go through other games if people want me to. This isn't some convuluted situation either. Any time a T builds in this manner with a more reactionary muta defense, they're open to this type of timing attack, it's not something that happens every game (map matters a lot as other factors). Nor does it require much setup, the only demand is you delay air attack and instead make the canal.
I also saw this coming from awhile away as I watched the game. I was practically yelling (aka typing to a friend in chat) about how this game could have been wrapped up by the safe construction of a Nydus Canal. And for what it's worth I play Zerg.
It's easy to say these kind of things with hindsight. When you're playing a Muta/Baneling/Zergling style you're relying on a small stockpile of gas to immediately morph Banelings to deal with an attack.. if you build the nydus+worm you're really gas-starved and make yourself extremely vulnerable to an attack. Stephano also has no idea how many Marines Polt has or where they are.. and that number will vary depending on Polt's build. If he did have a group of marines in his main (and most Terrans will) the nydus is completely useless. Even if it finishes it's spitting out Zerglings/Banelings one by one which are just going to get cleaned up by a small group of Marines anyways.
Hell I don't even see how having a nydus in Polt's base would be of any use when he has his army relatively close to his mainn.
There's no hindsight needed. You didn't even read my post in a way to comprehend it as I address ALL your issues. Maybe rather than jumping to conclusions and making big assumptions you should slow down and read with an open mind.
Stephano saw the 3rd before investing in the air upgrade. He spend money on the attack upgrades which are a longer vulnerability than the worm. The 3rd tells you something about the marine count. He had a delayed 3rd so his eye was on aggression anyways. The marines WEREN'T THERE AND COULDN'T HAVE BEEN THERE. 13 marines under attack by 7 mutas and an additional ling/bling every .5s are marines that aren't going to live long.
Polts army was only stronger because of sieged siege tanks and superior positioning. Look at how Stephano nearly overruns the 3rd immediately after the muta harass. And if Polt concentrates all his units in one position in his base the entire rest of his base is open to muta harass or ling attacks.
Even if it is 'hindsight' uh... so fucking what. That's the point of replay analysis. You look at things in hindsight, then learn lessons and apply them forward. The popular opinion is that Nydus Worms are useless, I showed a great example of them having a unique use, thus they aren't useless and can win games, even pro ones.
Your post is also full of spoilers.
TL removed its no spoilers policy.
Go open up the replay and look at the game again, Polt has 4 (almost 5) tanks and 6 barracks (4 reactored..) about to churn out marines. He's just going to reposition some Tanks, bring some Marines back and clean up the attack no problem with a ton of reinforcements. There's no discussion to this.
Your point about drawing the army away so you can attack somewhere else is completely unrelated.. the mutalisks already did this.
Ah that's right I forgot it applies to the SC2 General Forum as well.
The tanks are out of position (I addressed that), they would be there in the same time as the 2nd set of marines and THEN would need to siege up so by time they siege the fight could already be over. About to churn out marines is a big difference from having marines, I'm not sure how you expect them to change the fight when they would come out 15-25s after the worm finishes (other than the 3 in production from the 1st 2 raxes).
The mutas draw 13 marines away, a Nydus has to draw an entire army (because an entire army may come out of that worm). In that game especially even drawing 1 extra siege tank (the one on high ground guarding the 3rd) would have meant the 3rd CC would have fallen (it barely lived with that siege tank there as is) which pays for the Nydus worm + canal and is a huge game changer.
The 'hindsight' thing is referring to the fact that using the Nydus in these situations is just hoping he isn't prepraed. E.g. putting a Nydus down in ZvP in Protoss' main is just hoping he doesn't watch the minimap enough. It's not really reliable.
This is different than dropping it naked in a main. What mistake did Polt make that left him vulnerable to this kind of harass? With putting one naked in a main you are hoping its not spotted (as in your opponent makes a mistake). With this style of Nydus use, it doesn't make a difference. You place it where he 100% sees it and you don't care at all because he can't do anything about it. That's like the biggest part of my post and why I did a specific and detailed analysis. USED CORRECTLY you aren't relying on an enemy mistake to make a Nydus work. Sure if Polt responds perfectly the Nydus might not win outright, but it's almost certainly creating an advantaged situation for Stephano or one that gives him at least one cost effective fight. If nothing else the simple fact that the worm has to be targeted over the mutas can be enough to pay for the Worm and some of the network.
On the other side as Stephano you can see this situation because the 3rd was there and you know Polt made a factory (the hellions). If Stephano didn't have this information then I agree, you make the +1 air attack or just an extra mutalisk. Yet that's not the situation and the fact that Stephano saw all this is WHY I chose this game.
They're ridiculously easy to fend off. Since they take so long to set up and can be killed by 5 harvesters, all you need is good perimeter awareness and the whole idea of using a nydus to surprise attack your opponent fails miserably.
That only leaves zerg with using it to reinforce bases or shorten attack lines. The problem is, units come out one at a time which makes it terrible for either. However I think players might want to experiment with building multiple nyduses...its not all that expensive considering the amount of resources players will accumulate during the late game. Maybe an endless stream of rallied units could work wonders for zerg, as their equivalent to the protoss proxy pylon. Wonder what pro gamers think of it.
Zenio used this last night against SC to beat him on Entombed Valley I believe, used the nydus worm to make him pull a bunch of units back into his main while a bunch of lings in the main destroyed some production, then ran in with a ling/ultra/infestor/baneling army and took out a bunch of SC's units and SC's fourth.
Yeah, it wasn't a cheese or early game. Everyone loves to theorycraft this stuff to death, but people need to try it more: it works when done well. Leenock used it to beat MVP if people recall.
On March 02 2012 11:16 Whitewing wrote: Zenio used this last night against SC to beat him on Entombed Valley I believe, used the nydus worm to make him pull a bunch of units back into his main while a bunch of lings in the main destroyed some production, then ran in with a ling/ultra/infestor/baneling army and took out a bunch of SC's units and SC's fourth.
Yeah, it wasn't a cheese or early game. Everyone loves to theorycraft this stuff to death, but people need to try it more: it works when done well. Leenock used it to beat MVP if people recall.
Ooh awesome, that's exactly the use I've been trying to talk about unless it was just a 'hidden' nydus. Hopefully people draw inspiration from that.
On March 02 2012 09:13 GP wrote: It boggles my mind that I don't see Zergs who are banking a thousand+ resources put up a Nydus at each of their furthest expansions in the late game. What's a bigger loss when an expansion gets dropped/attacked, the Nydus and the Hatchery, or the Hatchery and all of the drones? I'm not a professional player of coarse, but it seems like common sense to me.
I have seen MorroW do this on Tal' Darim Alter in a zvt. He has spines around the expo + a nydus. Pretty solid defense imo and would be really frustrating for a Terran to play against.
it would be nice, if they could be used for army movement, but loading/unloading takes ages. i wouldnt care if the nydus builds slower, has more hp and loading/unloading was faster.
Ok, I'm a terrible player, but I sometimes use them when I'm forced to make hydras for whatever reason (lots of stargate; even sky terran).
When I end up with a lot of roaches or hydras, I quite like to use them in two ways:
1) just like a forward pylon - I'll set all my hatches to rally into the nydus, but I'll rally morphing zergling eggs directly to the front lines so I don't send the fast lings into the (slow to unload) nydus. The slow stuff (roaches, hydras) just dump into the nydus and you can pop them out near the front lines. If you need to pull back to defend some pressure back at home while your main army is out fighting the front you can just pop back into the nydus. What's also nice to do is to pop out a queen at the forward nydus and drop a creep tumor, so you get some "permanent" vision and a little advance spot to start growing creep from.
2) I like using it to retreat from areas where you might get sandwiched - say you've gone around the long way to attack your opponents 3rd base (where the rocks are) on Taldarim - sometimes I get worried that I'll get sandwiched in there after I snipe a nexus - I'll just open up a nydus and hop in when I'm done. Yeah, it costs 100/100 but it's cheaper than losing even 2 hydras or 4 roaches. Another common spot is on the 3rd of Antiga - the retreat path is so easy for the opponent to close off; sometimes it's way safer to just drop a nydus after you break up the rocks and run into it when you need to run away. Loading speed seems way, faster than unloading, too - you can get a whole roach/hydra army in there in not too much time.
Using it as a quick backdoor to your enemy's main seems to never, ever work.
The problems with the nydus network are numerous: • Nydus network is expensive. • Worm is a bit expensive • Worm can die to workers (or even less attacking units) quite easily before it even finishes • Rate of loading and unloading is a bit slow for some units
To fix nydus worm/network, they should: • Decrease cost of nydus network to 150/150 (from 150/200) • Decrease cost of nydus worm to 100/50 or 100/75 (from 100/100) • Increase the armor of nydus worm to 2 (up from 1) • Increase the health of nydus worm to 250 (up from 200) • Adjust the rate of units entering the nydus based off the supply (or transport) size of the unit. It's simply imbalanced that 10 ultralisks can pop out of a nydus worm faster than 12 zerglings. Zerglings should come out a bit faster, and ultralisks should come out a bit slower (every other unit is 2 transport spaces and could remain at the same times).
On March 02 2012 09:13 GP wrote: It boggles my mind that I don't see Zergs who are banking a thousand+ resources put up a Nydus at each of their furthest expansions in the late game. What's a bigger loss when an expansion gets dropped/attacked, the Nydus and the Hatchery, or the Hatchery and all of the drones? I'm not a professional player of coarse, but it seems like common sense to me.
Mostly I'd say it's because the time to unload and load is so large that you couldn't transport units in time to save it if the opponent's already attacking. You need to wait for both enough units to load up AND enough units to unload BEFORE you can engage the opponent, otherwise you'll just use the force your attempting to defend with.
The one scenario where I think it could be useful is with keeping a worm at each expansion, along with 2 spines or something, and then have 3-4 infestors in the network. This would mostly be a defense against terran drop/harass tactics.
If you're just talking about moving drones into the nydus to save the drones, that's not too useful. While it might have SOME use, there are better alternatives. The reason it's not that useful is that much of the time you can just run the drones away. If you're in a scenario where you can't run the drones away, you wouldn't be able to run them to a nydus either. Aside from that, the alternative of using overlords with ventral sacs or burrow is cheaper than nydus worms. Overlords are much better than nydus worms since they load units up instantly, while still having the same amount of HP.
On March 01 2012 18:50 BoxingKangaroo wrote: I feel one of two changes need to take place:
1. Be able to make multiple nydus heads from one main building. This may be way to OP though.
2. A nydus head starts at low health, but it's health gradually increases once it pops up to some maximum limit. This way they're still easy to kill for a player on the lookout, but can they can be used better defensively since you can place them at your expos long before the enemy arrives and the nydus has a chance to get up to its maximum health limit. They're harder to snipe in other words. I think this would also introduce an interesting gameplay element where the enemy is time constrained on killing the nydus, lest it become harder and harder to kill.
I suppose you men multiple worms simultaneously since they can already make multiple worms. That's a pretty good idea, I remember wanting that as well (just forgot for my post).
About worms' health, that's actually an interesting point you raise, since that's the only structure in the game that instantly constructs with max health (aside from the auto-turret). I'd say the change wouldn't be necessary though, considering they're already VERY easy to kill when you're prepared. A handful of workers is all it takes to kill a worm, even if the worm is already 50% complete.
On March 02 2012 14:29 Xapti wrote: The problems with the nydus network are numerous: • Nydus network is expensive. • Worm is a bit expensive • Worm can die to workers (or even less attacking units) quite easily before it even finishes • Rate of loading and unloading is a bit slow for some units
To fix nydus worm/network, they should: • Decrease cost of nydus network to 150/150 • Decrease cost of nydus worm to 100/50 or 100/75 • Increase the armor of nydus worm to 2 • Increase the health of nydus worm to 250 • Adjust the rate of units entering the nydus based off the supply (or transport) size of the unit. It's simply imbalanced that 10 ultralisks can pop out of a nydus worm faster than 12 zerglings
I think the health fix might be a bit much, and the last buff is bit unclear. I understand the general idea of what you are getting at, but they could just say, ok, your right, now one ultra takes 4x as long to unload.
Overall though, if even 1/2 those changes went into place, I would use them a lot more.
On March 02 2012 11:14 radscorpion9 wrote: They're ridiculously easy to fend off. Since they take so long to set up and can be killed by 5 harvesters, all you need is good perimeter awareness and the whole idea of using a nydus to surprise attack your opponent fails miserably.
That only leaves zerg with using it to reinforce bases or shorten attack lines. The problem is, units come out one at a time which makes it terrible for either. However I think players might want to experiment with building multiple nyduses...its not all that expensive considering the amount of resources players will accumulate during the late game. Maybe an endless stream of rallied units could work wonders for zerg, as their equivalent to the protoss proxy pylon. Wonder what pro gamers think of it.
Multiple Nydus Worms late game is absolutely horrible. I'd much, much rather spend that gas on more infestors or broodlords instead of the chance that the nydus worms actually make it up. If they could be cancelled for 75% of the resources back, it might be different, however.
On March 02 2012 06:39 TheDraken wrote: if terrans get to salvage their bunkers, i should get to salvage my frikin nyduses. it's just not worth the 100 gas if it's almost always going to get killed.
give zergs the option to retract it back into the ground after it completes. 75% money back.
Yah, I should be able to salvage my Nexus or any other tech structure that I don't have any use for and that might be killed. I don't see the use of having a templar archives when my opponent switches from banes to mass roach. It's just not worth having HT with storms at that point in the game. If terran gets to salvage their bunkers, I should be able to salvage my templar archives.
There is something called investing in a tech structure. If you could salvage a nydus worm, this would be a free tech route that would make the mechanic imbalanced.
i hate when people resort to distorting a point and making an absolutely absurd comparison. it's really obnoxious, and there's not much to respect about your post when you do that.
it's not a free tech route. the building fucking costs 200/200. even with a retract/salvage each worm would still be 25/25 (or make it 50/50!). all you have to do is put pylons around the edge of your base. WOW SO HARD.
in fact, if nydus had a retract/salvage ability to make the worms cheaper, it would indirectly revive the hydra in all matchups. 6 hydras in a nydus worm would be zerg's version of an 8 marine medivac drop. but unlike a medivac drop, if you see it before it hits, the zerg loses a guaranteed 100/100 since it has to complete before it is salvageable.
honestly people bitch all the time about this game being too easy. but as soon as you ask them to have some map awareness and notice a fucking red square in their base, people flip shit. it's incredible.
I swear there is one of these threads every other month. Simple version is they are super weak and poop units out too slowly. They can get sniped before 5-6 units get pooped out.
and no, a nydus is a horrible waste of money for saving workers.
1. it's the fist thing they'll target 2. just burrow your damn drones. if it's a drop, they usually don't have detection. if it's their whole army, you could use the extra supply.
The LagTV video that was put up is a great example of good Nydus use. However, its very situational. As many have pointed out Drop works so much better the majority of the time. The same amount of gas and minerals and it allows for overlord spread and isnt a waste if your nydus gets sniped lol. I'd like to see a bit more of a Cocoon like buff when its morphing in. Let it get up at least before it gets torn down. If they have 10 marines targeting the thing its not like everything will be able to funnel through fast enough to take over. The fact that a few workers can kill it really deters me from using it.
I think its similar to the Warp Prism in the fact that its a bit expensive for what it does unless you can actually use it somewhat safely without completely wasting your investment. It doesnt even need to be buffed as much as WP was in terms of health...maybe take away the loud roaring noise/notification...it still shows up on the map if you have vision. It'd encourage better pylon/depot/overlord placement. This would reward better players who have good placement and would also reward players that can sneak it in.
it's funny how people always suggest to get things preemptively... I mean, people have to realize, that even if certain stuff is only 3clicks away as zerg, it's not useful to have a preemptive Nydus, Hydra Den, Roach Warren, OL speed, OL drops, 1 overseer/1 spore/1spine per expo, burrow, roach speed, Infestation Pit, 3 extra queens... when you are going muta/ling/bling... If you plan on using it, get it; if it is only useful for a "what if" situation (like: what if you have a chance to nydus him and maybe blow up a few workers), it is generally not useful.
On March 02 2012 09:11 avilo wrote: Also, another thing most Zergs have not done yet is use nydus worms with a single queen inside of it to spread creep to expansions on the map and forward locations. It's an example of a very powerful use for nydus worms that has not caught on yet.
A queen in an overlord is a lot more cost effective for that.
On March 02 2012 11:28 TBone- wrote: Because zergs are convinced they shouldn't push until they get broodlords.
more like, because zergs cant go into someone's main and kill them, T or P, without all inning before brood lords. How about those "assault" units roach and ultra? roach got nerfed to 2 supply and 1 armor instead of its original reverse position, and ultra blows hard in anything but perfect circumstances.
On March 02 2012 15:11 RmoteCntrld wrote: Why would you use Nydus worms to get places quicker when creeps is in the game and servers far more of a purpose than a Nydus that just hit me.
the one reasonable response would be that nydus can connect areas where creep is getting taken out around it, like fourth bases on antiga.
On March 02 2012 09:58 Logo wrote: Prepare to be scienced bitches... (ok that might be a bit dramatic).
Replay analysis of how a pro could have won a high profile game safely with Nydus Worm: If you've watched Winter Assembly or don't care about spoilers I really appreciate you reading this, it's a detailed description of how Nydus could have changed a game. + Show Spoiler [Winter Assembly Spoilers] +
Skip ahead to 10:30 and lets look at Stephano's situation. -Spire just finished -He's making 7 mutalisks -He has 1k/160 in the bank and he invests 100 of that into air upgrade 1 + floats gas + starts melee upgrade 1 later. It's entirely reasonable to say at this point Stephano should have 150/200 spare at this point by not floating minerals (a mistake he made) and his ability to defend would be unchanged (as he spends gas on a 2nd upgrade before the next muta he makes is completed, so in total he spent 250 gas on stuff that doesn't help until much much later).
Thus at this point, 10:30 exactly. Stephano could make a Nydus Worm with absolutely no risk of anything different happening over the next 50s compared to what he chose to do (air attack +1). Much later his air attack would be delayed, but I'm going to show how much he could have gained via Nydus play.
Now lets go ahead to 11:10. Where we have this:
Why is this important, lets look at our situation.
Nydus canal would be done instantly at this moment if build when air attack was researched..
Polt has a 3rd that's open, but defended.
Stephano has just moved mutalisks in and the base is relatively undefended
Polt's army is far away from the base. How far?
There's 6s before Polt moves any marines
The closest marines are moved back at 11:36 and arrive at the mineral line at 11:50 that's 14 seconds.
The area centered on the picture is about 4 seconds further away than that.
That's a total (not counting reaction time) of 18seconds.
That means Polt would have 2 seconds to react to even have a non-0% chance to get to worm before it emerged, which is a far cry from the 6s it took him to react and it assumes he runs right for the worm rather than to protect his SCVs (which Stephano can follow with mutas if Polt moves by rather than a-moves).
His 13 marines available dealing 10.5dps would take 2 seconds to kill the worm which is enough time for 4 banelings to emerge. Yet this assumes he stims his marines a 2nd time giving them only 25hp to survive the mutalisks that could be there. Otherwise he has 4s to get units out free of charge. Of course this ignores any marines that die from the 7 mutalisks that can attack them (each muta volley would just kill one marine outright I believe if he doesn't re-stim).
Likewise he also has to choose between protecting the SCVs, or attacking the worm unless he pulls the SCVs TO the worm which he could do, but that puts them right in the line of fire for the mutas and since we know the worm is almost sure to survive it's a big risk. Now SCV's do 2.67dps to the worm so their dps isn't that significant and if they're pulled immediately to the worm there are 7 mutas there getting to take free shots on them for 14s (when the marines arrive). Even if the worm was killed in this way the SCV loss is a huge hit to Polt well worth the worm's cost (and canal, but Stephano gets to keep that regardless). We know pulling the SCVs to hit the worm is a huge risk as Stephano because Stephano has banelings. If they are first out of the worm they will detonate and annhilate large scv #s, something that would be a huge blow to Polt.
Additional army is, at this point, 15-20s away and there's only a minimal force on the 3rd that Stephano can scout/spot. Unless you sac the SCVs, this worm is completing. Even that nearby tank is about 12s away + 4s unsiege and if it moves before the marines arrive it's vulnerable to the mutas (plus the tank costs more than the worm). If Stephano put his canal at his nat (towards the ramp down) lings could be 5s away from both the nydus AND Polt's 3rd by standing near the Xel'Naga, which means that up until 5s left on the worm Stephano can threaten the 3rd if additional forces are pulled back to prepare for the worm finishing. Since those marines are about 25s-30s away from the nydus worm, that gives Stephano a huge timing advantage. Polt has to pull them RIGHT AWAY if he wants to defend a full on nydus in his base, but Stephano can wait 15s to decide if he wants to hit the 3rd or hit the main.
The tanks are there, but keep in mind that all Stephano needs to do to win is kill the marines really (Polt would be defenseless vs the mutalisks). None of them can get there in time to kill the worm before units emerge either with 4s to unsiege and their slow movespeed.
Stephano has enough units at this point to kill Polt so long as polt can't make use of a defensive position (sieged up siege tanks). Since we're forcing Polt to pull back to the main if we hit there, his tanks won't be sieged for most of the battle.
What if Polt's units were better positioned? Well what would that look like. Would it be any better to Stephano's option of pulling his muta's back and hitting else where sans worm? I fail to see some magic configuration that Polt should have known to do that would be well equipped to handle this attack + the threat of a full frontal attack. Not to mention if Stephano was planning on this type of strategy he could easily scout the unit positioning with a ling poke ahead of time. By seeing the # of marines gathered near the 3rd + the fact that Polt has a 3rd, he would know the main is relatively undefended.
Now you might also say, "It's a risk! What about late game" Well we know Stephano likes Ultras late game in many situations. Shakuras may not be the best map for late game nydus play, but we do know it's something that can be effective . So maybe he is delaying air attack or skipping it, but so long as he protects that canal he's setup late game to make better use of Ultras. So he can deal tons of damage now or if it doesn't pan out is setup to do well later with a nydus up.
So lets recap:
Stephano could have made a Nydus Canal at no-risk to his immediate safety.
Stephano could have made a worm right as he harasses with mutalisks with 0 risk to the mutas.
Polt would have have almost 0 chance to kill the worm before at least 2-4 units emerge and have time to attack. With his actual reaction time it would be at least 12 units out of the worm before he even starts attacking it.
Stephano had banelings that could almost instantly remove all threats on the worm, or at least force them to stop attacking the worm (never mind the mutas themselves)
Without sieged siege tanks Stephano's army is superior.
Polt's additional reinforcements aren't in range of the worm until 5-10s after it completes
If Polt pulls back all units his 3rd is completely open (as is his natural). Yet Stephano doesn't need to commit to hitting the main vs 3rd until 5s before the worm finishes (10s after Polt has to pull back).
Conclusion/TL;DR Thus I contend that I've shown a real world example with PRO players where a Nydus Worm would have offered a UNIQUE chance to win or gain an advantage that no other thing in the Zerg army could have done. This is the finals game of a big tournament that could have been won with a Nydus.
I don't think this is a unique situation either and I'd love to go through other games if people want me to. This isn't some convuluted situation either. Any time a T builds in this manner with a more reactionary muta defense, they're open to this type of timing attack, it's not something that happens every game (map matters a lot as other factors). Nor does it require much setup, the only demand is you delay air attack and instead make the canal.
I also saw this coming from awhile away as I watched the game. I was practically yelling (aka typing to a friend in chat) about how this game could have been wrapped up by the safe construction of a Nydus Canal. And for what it's worth I play Zerg.
It's easy to say these kind of things with hindsight. When you're playing a Muta/Baneling/Zergling style you're relying on a small stockpile of gas to immediately morph Banelings to deal with an attack.. if you build the nydus+worm you're really gas-starved and make yourself extremely vulnerable to an attack. Stephano also has no idea how many Marines Polt has or where they are.. and that number will vary depending on Polt's build. If he did have a group of marines in his main (and most Terrans will) the nydus is completely useless. Even if it finishes it's spitting out Zerglings/Banelings one by one which are just going to get cleaned up by a small group of Marines anyways.
Hell I don't even see how having a nydus in Polt's base would be of any use when he has his army relatively close to his mainn.
There's no hindsight needed. You didn't even read my post in a way to comprehend it as I address ALL your issues. Maybe rather than jumping to conclusions and making big assumptions you should slow down and read with an open mind.
Stephano saw the 3rd before investing in the air upgrade. He spend money on the attack upgrades which are a longer vulnerability than the worm. The 3rd tells you something about the marine count. He had a delayed 3rd so his eye was on aggression anyways. The marines WEREN'T THERE AND COULDN'T HAVE BEEN THERE. 13 marines under attack by 7 mutas and an additional ling/bling every .5s are marines that aren't going to live long.
Polts army was only stronger because of sieged siege tanks and superior positioning. Look at how Stephano nearly overruns the 3rd immediately after the muta harass. And if Polt concentrates all his units in one position in his base the entire rest of his base is open to muta harass or ling attacks.
Even if it is 'hindsight' uh... so fucking what. That's the point of replay analysis. You look at things in hindsight, then learn lessons and apply them forward. The popular opinion is that Nydus Worms are useless, I showed a great example of them having a unique use, thus they aren't useless and can win games, even pro ones.
Your post is also full of spoilers.
TL removed its no spoilers policy.
Go open up the replay and look at the game again, Polt has 4 (almost 5) tanks and 6 barracks (4 reactored..) about to churn out marines. He's just going to reposition some Tanks, bring some Marines back and clean up the attack no problem with a ton of reinforcements. There's no discussion to this.
Your point about drawing the army away so you can attack somewhere else is completely unrelated.. the mutalisks already did this.
Ah that's right I forgot it applies to the SC2 General Forum as well.
The tanks are out of position (I addressed that), they would be there in the same time as the 2nd set of marines and THEN would need to siege up so by time they siege the fight could already be over. About to churn out marines is a big difference from having marines, I'm not sure how you expect them to change the fight when they would come out 15-25s after the worm finishes (other than the 3 in production from the 1st 2 raxes).
The mutas draw 13 marines away, a Nydus has to draw an entire army (because an entire army may come out of that worm). In that game especially even drawing 1 extra siege tank (the one on high ground guarding the 3rd) would have meant the 3rd CC would have fallen (it barely lived with that siege tank there as is) which pays for the Nydus worm + canal and is a huge game changer.
The 'hindsight' thing is referring to the fact that using the Nydus in these situations is just hoping he isn't prepraed. E.g. putting a Nydus down in ZvP in Protoss' main is just hoping he doesn't watch the minimap enough. It's not really reliable.
This is different than dropping it naked in a main. What mistake did Polt make that left him vulnerable to this kind of harass? With putting one naked in a main you are hoping its not spotted (as in your opponent makes a mistake). With this style of Nydus use, it doesn't make a difference. You place it where he 100% sees it and you don't care at all because he can't do anything about it. That's like the biggest part of my post and why I did a specific and detailed analysis. USED CORRECTLY you aren't relying on an enemy mistake to make a Nydus work. Sure if Polt responds perfectly the Nydus might not win outright, but it's almost certainly creating an advantaged situation for Stephano or one that gives him at least one cost effective fight. If nothing else the simple fact that the worm has to be targeted over the mutas can be enough to pay for the Worm and some of the network.
On the other side as Stephano you can see this situation because the 3rd was there and you know Polt made a factory (the hellions). If Stephano didn't have this information then I agree, you make the +1 air attack or just an extra mutalisk. Yet that's not the situation and the fact that Stephano saw all this is WHY I chose this game.
Situational.
Yes, a nydus has the possibility of spitting out an entire army. That doesn't mean it happens. you said that mutas draw 13 marines while a nydus draws a wholea rmy? things dont exit the nydus worm like the nydus from bw. then ou might have a case. mass unit egress with auto spread attained. Instead they come out in serial fashion, one by one. not only can 13 stimming marines clean that up, they can snipe the nydus too, and now your entire (potential) army is stuck in the network and has to re-exit in your base with ZERO positioning.
you call that good planning, I call that a tasty treat for terran. Zerg isn't nearly prolific or long lived enough to send part of its army to do damage in a terran base while its main army attacks enemies. it needs all its army to attack because every single unit matters, not like terran that can drop a suicide medivac full to snipe a hatch and just stay sieged and prevent any attack.
I believe the main Nydus building is 150/200 and the cost to spawn an additional Worm is a further 100/100. The minerals are nothing but 200 gas can be a bit painful to spend for a 'maybe' situation like the defensive reasons
This is the reason, minerals do not matter, but a 100 gas does. If you are way ahead maybe it's viable, but if zergs are massing on bases it means your oponent is turtleing up and good luck finding a weak spot for your soundmaschine.
Equal bases or econ, you will need the gas for your army or it's upgrades.
i think it's kind of an over-generalized assumption that every major nydus use is to sneak one into the main (ie. "it's bad because workers can kill it"), but i think the point of the OP was to facilitate exploration into other practical uses aside from nydussing the main
at the Gold league level, i remember playing against a zerg player who used offensive nydus like forward pylons for rapid creep spread and for rapid field deployment of ultralisks, as well as counter attacks. it was more annoying than dealing with muta harass when i wanted to push out from my base. I remember thinking "wow, someone actually using nydus in a smart fashion." granted, at the gold level i let my opponent get an early 3rd and didn't provide enough counter pressure, but i'd love to see pros with macro styles that capitalize on early 3rd/4ths start employing forward nydus worms for overall map presence
On March 02 2012 11:28 TBone- wrote: Because zergs are convinced they shouldn't push until they get broodlords.
more like, because zergs cant go into someone's main and kill them, T or P, without all inning before brood lords. How about those "assault" units roach and ultra? roach got nerfed to 2 supply and 1 armor instead of its original reverse position, and ultra blows hard in anything but perfect circumstances.
On March 02 2012 15:11 RmoteCntrld wrote: Why would you use Nydus worms to get places quicker when creeps is in the game and servers far more of a purpose than a Nydus that just hit me.
the one reasonable response would be that nydus can connect areas where creep is getting taken out around it, like fourth bases on antiga.
On March 02 2012 09:58 Logo wrote: Prepare to be scienced bitches... (ok that might be a bit dramatic).
Replay analysis of how a pro could have won a high profile game safely with Nydus Worm: If you've watched Winter Assembly or don't care about spoilers I really appreciate you reading this, it's a detailed description of how Nydus could have changed a game. + Show Spoiler [Winter Assembly Spoilers] +
Skip ahead to 10:30 and lets look at Stephano's situation. -Spire just finished -He's making 7 mutalisks -He has 1k/160 in the bank and he invests 100 of that into air upgrade 1 + floats gas + starts melee upgrade 1 later. It's entirely reasonable to say at this point Stephano should have 150/200 spare at this point by not floating minerals (a mistake he made) and his ability to defend would be unchanged (as he spends gas on a 2nd upgrade before the next muta he makes is completed, so in total he spent 250 gas on stuff that doesn't help until much much later).
Thus at this point, 10:30 exactly. Stephano could make a Nydus Worm with absolutely no risk of anything different happening over the next 50s compared to what he chose to do (air attack +1). Much later his air attack would be delayed, but I'm going to show how much he could have gained via Nydus play.
Now lets go ahead to 11:10. Where we have this:
Why is this important, lets look at our situation.
Nydus canal would be done instantly at this moment if build when air attack was researched..
Polt has a 3rd that's open, but defended.
Stephano has just moved mutalisks in and the base is relatively undefended
Polt's army is far away from the base. How far?
There's 6s before Polt moves any marines
The closest marines are moved back at 11:36 and arrive at the mineral line at 11:50 that's 14 seconds.
The area centered on the picture is about 4 seconds further away than that.
That's a total (not counting reaction time) of 18seconds.
That means Polt would have 2 seconds to react to even have a non-0% chance to get to worm before it emerged, which is a far cry from the 6s it took him to react and it assumes he runs right for the worm rather than to protect his SCVs (which Stephano can follow with mutas if Polt moves by rather than a-moves).
His 13 marines available dealing 10.5dps would take 2 seconds to kill the worm which is enough time for 4 banelings to emerge. Yet this assumes he stims his marines a 2nd time giving them only 25hp to survive the mutalisks that could be there. Otherwise he has 4s to get units out free of charge. Of course this ignores any marines that die from the 7 mutalisks that can attack them (each muta volley would just kill one marine outright I believe if he doesn't re-stim).
Likewise he also has to choose between protecting the SCVs, or attacking the worm unless he pulls the SCVs TO the worm which he could do, but that puts them right in the line of fire for the mutas and since we know the worm is almost sure to survive it's a big risk. Now SCV's do 2.67dps to the worm so their dps isn't that significant and if they're pulled immediately to the worm there are 7 mutas there getting to take free shots on them for 14s (when the marines arrive). Even if the worm was killed in this way the SCV loss is a huge hit to Polt well worth the worm's cost (and canal, but Stephano gets to keep that regardless). We know pulling the SCVs to hit the worm is a huge risk as Stephano because Stephano has banelings. If they are first out of the worm they will detonate and annhilate large scv #s, something that would be a huge blow to Polt.
Additional army is, at this point, 15-20s away and there's only a minimal force on the 3rd that Stephano can scout/spot. Unless you sac the SCVs, this worm is completing. Even that nearby tank is about 12s away + 4s unsiege and if it moves before the marines arrive it's vulnerable to the mutas (plus the tank costs more than the worm). If Stephano put his canal at his nat (towards the ramp down) lings could be 5s away from both the nydus AND Polt's 3rd by standing near the Xel'Naga, which means that up until 5s left on the worm Stephano can threaten the 3rd if additional forces are pulled back to prepare for the worm finishing. Since those marines are about 25s-30s away from the nydus worm, that gives Stephano a huge timing advantage. Polt has to pull them RIGHT AWAY if he wants to defend a full on nydus in his base, but Stephano can wait 15s to decide if he wants to hit the 3rd or hit the main.
The tanks are there, but keep in mind that all Stephano needs to do to win is kill the marines really (Polt would be defenseless vs the mutalisks). None of them can get there in time to kill the worm before units emerge either with 4s to unsiege and their slow movespeed.
Stephano has enough units at this point to kill Polt so long as polt can't make use of a defensive position (sieged up siege tanks). Since we're forcing Polt to pull back to the main if we hit there, his tanks won't be sieged for most of the battle.
What if Polt's units were better positioned? Well what would that look like. Would it be any better to Stephano's option of pulling his muta's back and hitting else where sans worm? I fail to see some magic configuration that Polt should have known to do that would be well equipped to handle this attack + the threat of a full frontal attack. Not to mention if Stephano was planning on this type of strategy he could easily scout the unit positioning with a ling poke ahead of time. By seeing the # of marines gathered near the 3rd + the fact that Polt has a 3rd, he would know the main is relatively undefended.
Now you might also say, "It's a risk! What about late game" Well we know Stephano likes Ultras late game in many situations. Shakuras may not be the best map for late game nydus play, but we do know it's something that can be effective . So maybe he is delaying air attack or skipping it, but so long as he protects that canal he's setup late game to make better use of Ultras. So he can deal tons of damage now or if it doesn't pan out is setup to do well later with a nydus up.
So lets recap:
Stephano could have made a Nydus Canal at no-risk to his immediate safety.
Stephano could have made a worm right as he harasses with mutalisks with 0 risk to the mutas.
Polt would have have almost 0 chance to kill the worm before at least 2-4 units emerge and have time to attack. With his actual reaction time it would be at least 12 units out of the worm before he even starts attacking it.
Stephano had banelings that could almost instantly remove all threats on the worm, or at least force them to stop attacking the worm (never mind the mutas themselves)
Without sieged siege tanks Stephano's army is superior.
Polt's additional reinforcements aren't in range of the worm until 5-10s after it completes
If Polt pulls back all units his 3rd is completely open (as is his natural). Yet Stephano doesn't need to commit to hitting the main vs 3rd until 5s before the worm finishes (10s after Polt has to pull back).
Conclusion/TL;DR Thus I contend that I've shown a real world example with PRO players where a Nydus Worm would have offered a UNIQUE chance to win or gain an advantage that no other thing in the Zerg army could have done. This is the finals game of a big tournament that could have been won with a Nydus.
I don't think this is a unique situation either and I'd love to go through other games if people want me to. This isn't some convuluted situation either. Any time a T builds in this manner with a more reactionary muta defense, they're open to this type of timing attack, it's not something that happens every game (map matters a lot as other factors). Nor does it require much setup, the only demand is you delay air attack and instead make the canal.
I also saw this coming from awhile away as I watched the game. I was practically yelling (aka typing to a friend in chat) about how this game could have been wrapped up by the safe construction of a Nydus Canal. And for what it's worth I play Zerg.
It's easy to say these kind of things with hindsight. When you're playing a Muta/Baneling/Zergling style you're relying on a small stockpile of gas to immediately morph Banelings to deal with an attack.. if you build the nydus+worm you're really gas-starved and make yourself extremely vulnerable to an attack. Stephano also has no idea how many Marines Polt has or where they are.. and that number will vary depending on Polt's build. If he did have a group of marines in his main (and most Terrans will) the nydus is completely useless. Even if it finishes it's spitting out Zerglings/Banelings one by one which are just going to get cleaned up by a small group of Marines anyways.
Hell I don't even see how having a nydus in Polt's base would be of any use when he has his army relatively close to his mainn.
There's no hindsight needed. You didn't even read my post in a way to comprehend it as I address ALL your issues. Maybe rather than jumping to conclusions and making big assumptions you should slow down and read with an open mind.
Stephano saw the 3rd before investing in the air upgrade. He spend money on the attack upgrades which are a longer vulnerability than the worm. The 3rd tells you something about the marine count. He had a delayed 3rd so his eye was on aggression anyways. The marines WEREN'T THERE AND COULDN'T HAVE BEEN THERE. 13 marines under attack by 7 mutas and an additional ling/bling every .5s are marines that aren't going to live long.
Polts army was only stronger because of sieged siege tanks and superior positioning. Look at how Stephano nearly overruns the 3rd immediately after the muta harass. And if Polt concentrates all his units in one position in his base the entire rest of his base is open to muta harass or ling attacks.
Even if it is 'hindsight' uh... so fucking what. That's the point of replay analysis. You look at things in hindsight, then learn lessons and apply them forward. The popular opinion is that Nydus Worms are useless, I showed a great example of them having a unique use, thus they aren't useless and can win games, even pro ones.
Your post is also full of spoilers.
TL removed its no spoilers policy.
Go open up the replay and look at the game again, Polt has 4 (almost 5) tanks and 6 barracks (4 reactored..) about to churn out marines. He's just going to reposition some Tanks, bring some Marines back and clean up the attack no problem with a ton of reinforcements. There's no discussion to this.
Your point about drawing the army away so you can attack somewhere else is completely unrelated.. the mutalisks already did this.
Ah that's right I forgot it applies to the SC2 General Forum as well.
The tanks are out of position (I addressed that), they would be there in the same time as the 2nd set of marines and THEN would need to siege up so by time they siege the fight could already be over. About to churn out marines is a big difference from having marines, I'm not sure how you expect them to change the fight when they would come out 15-25s after the worm finishes (other than the 3 in production from the 1st 2 raxes).
The mutas draw 13 marines away, a Nydus has to draw an entire army (because an entire army may come out of that worm). In that game especially even drawing 1 extra siege tank (the one on high ground guarding the 3rd) would have meant the 3rd CC would have fallen (it barely lived with that siege tank there as is) which pays for the Nydus worm + canal and is a huge game changer.
The 'hindsight' thing is referring to the fact that using the Nydus in these situations is just hoping he isn't prepraed. E.g. putting a Nydus down in ZvP in Protoss' main is just hoping he doesn't watch the minimap enough. It's not really reliable.
This is different than dropping it naked in a main. What mistake did Polt make that left him vulnerable to this kind of harass? With putting one naked in a main you are hoping its not spotted (as in your opponent makes a mistake). With this style of Nydus use, it doesn't make a difference. You place it where he 100% sees it and you don't care at all because he can't do anything about it. That's like the biggest part of my post and why I did a specific and detailed analysis. USED CORRECTLY you aren't relying on an enemy mistake to make a Nydus work. Sure if Polt responds perfectly the Nydus might not win outright, but it's almost certainly creating an advantaged situation for Stephano or one that gives him at least one cost effective fight. If nothing else the simple fact that the worm has to be targeted over the mutas can be enough to pay for the Worm and some of the network.
On the other side as Stephano you can see this situation because the 3rd was there and you know Polt made a factory (the hellions). If Stephano didn't have this information then I agree, you make the +1 air attack or just an extra mutalisk. Yet that's not the situation and the fact that Stephano saw all this is WHY I chose this game.
Situational.
Yes, a nydus has the possibility of spitting out an entire army. That doesn't mean it happens. you said that mutas draw 13 marines while a nydus draws a wholea rmy? things dont exit the nydus worm like the nydus from bw. then ou might have a case. mass unit egress with auto spread attained. Instead they come out in serial fashion, one by one. not only can 13 stimming marines clean that up, they can snipe the nydus too, and now your entire (potential) army is stuck in the network and has to re-exit in your base with ZERO positioning.
you call that good planning, I call that a tasty treat for terran. Zerg isn't nearly prolific or long lived enough to send part of its army to do damage in a terran base while its main army attacks enemies. it needs all its army to attack because every single unit matters, not like terran that can drop a suicide medivac full to snipe a hatch and just stay sieged and prevent any attack.
Of course it's situational, everything in Starcraft is situational. That's an empty statement.
Some points... 1. The mutas alone are almost enough to kill the marines (the marines were at 35hp from stim). But that's ignoring the addition hp of the worm that has to be taken down. 2. Take for example if the marines target the worm first, load it up and check it out in a unit tester, the marines would get the worm, but it'd cost about all 13 of the marines to take the worm. Or even more importantly the mutas have free reign over the SCVs or nearby siege tanks and it doesn't take many SCVs/tanks to pay for the worm. 2 tanks dead would about cover the network+worm's cost (300/250 for tanks vs 300/300 for the nydus). 3. In this particular game Polt's reaction time was 6s which would mean that 8-12 units would be out of the worm before Stephano even got the chance to attack it. What are you expecting 13 marines, 1 tank, and a bunch of SCVs to do vs 7 mutas, 4 banelings, and an increasing number of lings. 4. You say Stephano's units would be streaming out of the nydus one by one, but what do you think happens to a Terran army when they run up 2 ramps through a wall-in? 5. You ignore the condition of the marines. By time they even get to the worm they've been stimmed to 35hp and that stim has worn off. 6. Lets look at what Stephano DOES do. He attacks into the less important 3rd vs 2 siege tanks he can't hit because it's covered by marines and over 13 full hp marines that get to stim. You're seriously telling me that attack was a better decision than the Nydus? Even if he launches that same attack, by having a nydus he's likely caused more marines to pull back or a tank to unsiege which would have given him the 3rd, and possibly the game. This all goes down before the air attack finishes. So Stephano has effectively LOST THE GAME before his alternate investments (air attack and +1 melee attack) even finish while making an attack that was shown to be bad and foolish.
Obviously there are a lot of factors that go into it, but my point still stands that compared to the investment in +1 air attack and +1 melee attack a nydus would have been way more useful, and possibly game winning.
Also remember Shakuras mains are TINY by comparison to a lot of maps. What do you think happens when it's Tal'Darim Alter in the same situation and your opponent has to run through his nat + main all the way to that little ledge in the far off on the corner of their base.
Using nydus for defensive purposes is totaly useless at it is today, its simply cost to much (100/100). Its also slow if you only have 1 nydus at each base or what ever, loading up and puking out a full size army takes to long, its actualy faster to run there off creep on most of the maps. So to make it go fast you need like 3-5 worms at each base, and thats a lot of gas your not using on your army.
So... you make wild assumptions and try to make them sound like facts? Dont you think that Polt (beeing an excellent player) would have played different if he knew about the potential threat of a nydus network? Your whole idea rests upon the assumption that Polt wouldnt ever change his playstyle if he scouted a nydus network. By the same logic you can justify every unit/building.
On March 02 2012 22:44 Charon1979 wrote: So... you make wild assumptions and try to make them sound like facts? Dont you think that Polt (beeing an excellent player) would have played different if he knew about the potential threat of a nydus network? Your whole idea rests upon the assumption that Polt wouldnt ever change his playstyle if he scouted a nydus network. By the same logic you can justify every unit/building.
Well, the even greater assumption he makes is, that Stephano knows the exact positioning of everything Polt has. But for all Stephano knows, he has to assume that every tiny little space in Polts base is filled with marines, and that he should only have like 5-10 sec before he has to turn around with his mutalisks. Way less than the 20sec it takes for the worm to pop out.
The comment about Shakuras mains was amusing but it shows that you know little on the subject. Shakuras and Tal'Darim mains are actually the biggest mains of all maps, at 41 CC's and 42 CC's respectively worth of space. Almost every other main is around 30 to 35 CC's of space, and that makes a big difference in what you can and can't hide. Also the distance from nat to main is much shorter on some of the newer maps as well as the nats and 3rds being smaller and more defensible in general.
You also forgot one critical argument from your "perfect" scenario. What if Polt sends his marines into the main to kill the mutas while his SCVs handle the worm? Yes he does take SCV damage, but he would have taken some anyway from the muta harass. However if you try to focus his SCVs you lose mutas and the worm, if you focus the marines the SCVs will kill the worm and you still lose a lot of mutas.
You also can't assume slow reaction time from your terran opponent every time, just as you can't assume perfect timing and execution from the zerg player, it just doesn't happen. Now you are just taking a small example and extrapolating every little bit to fit your theory, and you still had a hole in your argument.
As someone else said, in most games terrans have armies in position already to receive the harass, you're gambling and investing on them messing up in some way, either in the preparatory stage leading up to the muta harass or in the moment of crisis, and you are always gambling on incomplete information.
Lastly you fail to take into account the effect Nydus play might have on the meta-game and the higher level of preparation and counter measures that can and will be employed if Nydus gains in popularity.
So, your argument is full of hot air but it won't float until more and more players start using it.
On March 02 2012 23:02 Destructicon wrote: The comment about Shakuras mains was amusing but it shows that you know little on the subject. Shakuras and Tal'Darim mains are actually the biggest mains of all maps, at 41 CC's and 42 CC's respectively worth of space. Almost every other main is around 30 to 35 CC's of space, and that makes a big difference in what you can and can't hide. Also the distance from nat to main is much shorter on some of the newer maps as well as the nats and 3rds being smaller and more defensible in general.
You also forgot one critical argument from your "perfect" scenario. What if Polt sends his marines into the main to kill the mutas while his SCVs handle the worm? Yes he does take SCV damage, but he would have taken some anyway from the muta harass. However if you try to focus his SCVs you lose mutas and the worm, if you focus the marines the SCVs will kill the worm and you still lose a lot of mutas.
You also can't assume slow reaction time from your terran opponent every time, just as you can't assume perfect timing and execution from the zerg player, it just doesn't happen. Now you are just taking a small example and extrapolating every little bit to fit your theory, and you still had a hole in your argument.
As someone else said, in most games terrans have armies in position already to receive the harass, you're gambling and investing on them messing up in some way, either in the preparatory stage leading up to the muta harass or in the moment of crisis, and you are always gambling on incomplete information.
Lastly you fail to take into account the effect Nydus play might have on the meta-game and the higher level of preparation and counter measures that can and will be employed if Nydus gains in popularity.
So, your argument is full of hot air but it won't float until more and more players start using it.
Sorry, that is accurate, it would have been better for me to say that Shakuras is very square which means that you're only a certain distance from any point and that distance isn't particularly big. On a map like Tal-darim the natural is more rectangular so if you are at one end of that rectangle (like the mineral line) the other end is pretty far away. I'm not sure, but my thought was also that the nat ramp in Tal-darim (where you're likely to be defending with 3 bases) is also further from the main than Shakuras'.
The nydus is a gamble just like anything else, but even if it doesn't pay off right away it's not wasted. It has a future use, most people agree Nydus' + ultras are good late game for example and we know Stephano is an Ultra user.
My point anyways isn't to show that Nydus' will always work with this type of timing, that'd be a ridiculous statement. The important part is more the style of Nydus' use I'm trying to show (as in not sneaking one hoping your opponent doesn't notice) in the context of a specific game where you can see how it would have had a beneficial effect. The other major point is showing how easily Stephano could afford the worm, as one of the biggest complaints is the cost of the thing.
You can't call something useless if it clearly can have a big impact vs a player who's not making a mistake, so the idea is to show an example of this, then work backwards to figure out how we can create those situations. Luckily the GSL recently had such an example as well which is great.
Lastly you fail to take into account the effect Nydus play might have on the meta-game and the higher level of preparation and counter measures that can and will be employed if Nydus gains in popularity.
No that's fine if they rise in popularity, then strategies change, then they aren't seen. If that happens Nydus' aren't useless, they're having a profound effect by changing the viable strategies your enemies use against you, which is far from useless. And the moment players go back to being unsafe vs Nydus' they just come right back and win games.
On March 02 2012 22:44 Charon1979 wrote: So... you make wild assumptions and try to make them sound like facts? Dont you think that Polt (beeing an excellent player) would have played different if he knew about the potential threat of a nydus network? Your whole idea rests upon the assumption that Polt wouldnt ever change his playstyle if he scouted a nydus network. By the same logic you can justify every unit/building.
Well, the even greater assumption he makes is, that Stephano knows the exact positioning of everything Polt has. But for all Stephano knows, he has to assume that every tiny little space in Polts base is filled with marines, and that he should only have like 5-10 sec before he has to turn around with his mutalisks. Way less than the 20sec it takes for the worm to pop out.
Stephano does know the positioning, or could easily. He sees when the mutas fly in no marines, he has vision on the 3rd, and has spare lings to poke and prod the main/nat area. That gives him all the tools he'd ever need to know Polt's unit positioning.
To the person you are quoting... I'd need to watch the rep again, but Polt doesn't make do scouting in that time I'm pretty sure. Hell he doesn't even spot the spire and that was started 120s before the Nydus would have been. Even if he does make those adjustments, what adjustment would he have made that wouldn't weaken him to the muta/ling push? At best he would move those 13 marines earlier, but considering he didn't even scout the mutalisks it's not fair to say he would have done that if Stephano made a nydus network.
And again importantly... If something changes your opponent's playstyle then that's GOOD and AWESOME and not useless. Nydus 1/10 of the games so that 10/10 of the times your opponent is making crazy adjustments because you might Nydus like this. That 1/10 may succeed 30-50% of the time, but for those 9/10 you are gaining a free advantage. It's no different than the threat of 2rax, proxy pylon, etc. Or more accurately the threat of things like mutalisks, dts, marine/medivac drops, etc.
On March 02 2012 23:02 Destructicon wrote: The comment about Shakuras mains was amusing but it shows that you know little on the subject. Shakuras and Tal'Darim mains are actually the biggest mains of all maps, at 41 CC's and 42 CC's respectively worth of space. Almost every other main is around 30 to 35 CC's of space, and that makes a big difference in what you can and can't hide. Also the distance from nat to main is much shorter on some of the newer maps as well as the nats and 3rds being smaller and more defensible in general.
You also forgot one critical argument from your "perfect" scenario. What if Polt sends his marines into the main to kill the mutas while his SCVs handle the worm? Yes he does take SCV damage, but he would have taken some anyway from the muta harass. However if you try to focus his SCVs you lose mutas and the worm, if you focus the marines the SCVs will kill the worm and you still lose a lot of mutas.
You also can't assume slow reaction time from your terran opponent every time, just as you can't assume perfect timing and execution from the zerg player, it just doesn't happen. Now you are just taking a small example and extrapolating every little bit to fit your theory, and you still had a hole in your argument.
As someone else said, in most games terrans have armies in position already to receive the harass, you're gambling and investing on them messing up in some way, either in the preparatory stage leading up to the muta harass or in the moment of crisis, and you are always gambling on incomplete information.
Lastly you fail to take into account the effect Nydus play might have on the meta-game and the higher level of preparation and counter measures that can and will be employed if Nydus gains in popularity.
So, your argument is full of hot air but it won't float until more and more players start using it.
Sorry, that is accurate, it would have been better for me to say that Shakuras is very square which means that you're only a certain distance from any point and that distance isn't particularly big. On a map like Tal-darim the natural is more rectangular so if you are at one end of that rectangle (like the mineral line) the other end is pretty far away. I'm not sure, but my thought was also that the nat ramp in Tal-darim (where you're likely to be defending with 3 bases) is also further from the main than Shakuras'.
The nydus is a gamble just like anything else, but even if it doesn't pay off right away it's not wasted. It has a future use, most people agree Nydus' + ultras are good late game for example and we know Stephano is an Ultra user.
My point anyways isn't to show that Nydus' will always work with this type of timing, that'd be a ridiculous statement. The important part is more the style of Nydus' use I'm trying to show (as in not sneaking one hoping your opponent doesn't notice) in the context of a specific game where you can see how it would have had a beneficial effect. The other major point is showing how easily Stephano could afford the worm, as one of the biggest complaints is the cost of the thing.
You can't call something useless if it clearly can have a big impact vs a player who's not making a mistake, so the idea is to show an example of this, then work backwards to figure out how we can create those situations. Luckily the GSL recently had such an example as well which is great.
Lastly you fail to take into account the effect Nydus play might have on the meta-game and the higher level of preparation and counter measures that can and will be employed if Nydus gains in popularity.
No that's fine if they rise in popularity, then strategies change, then they aren't seen. If that happens Nydus' aren't useless, they're having a profound effect by changing the viable strategies your enemies use against you, which is far from useless. And the moment players go back to being unsafe vs Nydus' they just come right back and win games.
Yeah you have a good point, any time I've used Nydus or had it used against me it has been a coin flip where the person dropping the Nydus basically has to hope he isn't scouted. If people can figure out great ways to use a Nydus reliably and not in such a gimmicky way then I'm all for it. Sure a Nydus isn't *that* expensive it's just if your opponent is decently good your Nydus becomes nothing but a complete waste of money because nobody seems to know how to use it in a way that doesn't rely on luck or your opponent being bad.
On March 02 2012 23:02 Destructicon wrote: The comment about Shakuras mains was amusing but it shows that you know little on the subject. Shakuras and Tal'Darim mains are actually the biggest mains of all maps, at 41 CC's and 42 CC's respectively worth of space. Almost every other main is around 30 to 35 CC's of space, and that makes a big difference in what you can and can't hide. Also the distance from nat to main is much shorter on some of the newer maps as well as the nats and 3rds being smaller and more defensible in general.
You also forgot one critical argument from your "perfect" scenario. What if Polt sends his marines into the main to kill the mutas while his SCVs handle the worm? Yes he does take SCV damage, but he would have taken some anyway from the muta harass. However if you try to focus his SCVs you lose mutas and the worm, if you focus the marines the SCVs will kill the worm and you still lose a lot of mutas.
You also can't assume slow reaction time from your terran opponent every time, just as you can't assume perfect timing and execution from the zerg player, it just doesn't happen. Now you are just taking a small example and extrapolating every little bit to fit your theory, and you still had a hole in your argument.
As someone else said, in most games terrans have armies in position already to receive the harass, you're gambling and investing on them messing up in some way, either in the preparatory stage leading up to the muta harass or in the moment of crisis, and you are always gambling on incomplete information.
Lastly you fail to take into account the effect Nydus play might have on the meta-game and the higher level of preparation and counter measures that can and will be employed if Nydus gains in popularity.
So, your argument is full of hot air but it won't float until more and more players start using it.
Sorry, that is accurate, it would have been better for me to say that Shakuras is very square which means that you're only a certain distance from any point and that distance isn't particularly big. On a map like Tal-darim the natural is more rectangular so if you are at one end of that rectangle (like the mineral line) the other end is pretty far away. I'm not sure, but my thought was also that the nat ramp in Tal-darim (where you're likely to be defending with 3 bases) is also further from the main than Shakuras'.
The nydus is a gamble just like anything else, but even if it doesn't pay off right away it's not wasted. It has a future use, most people agree Nydus' + ultras are good late game for example and we know Stephano is an Ultra user.
My point anyways isn't to show that Nydus' will always work with this type of timing, that'd be a ridiculous statement. The important part is more the style of Nydus' use I'm trying to show (as in not sneaking one hoping your opponent doesn't notice) in the context of a specific game where you can see how it would have had a beneficial effect. The other major point is showing how easily Stephano could afford the worm, as one of the biggest complaints is the cost of the thing.
You can't call something useless if it clearly can have a big impact vs a player who's not making a mistake, so the idea is to show an example of this, then work backwards to figure out how we can create those situations. Luckily the GSL recently had such an example as well which is great.
Lastly you fail to take into account the effect Nydus play might have on the meta-game and the higher level of preparation and counter measures that can and will be employed if Nydus gains in popularity.
No that's fine if they rise in popularity, then strategies change, then they aren't seen. If that happens Nydus' aren't useless, they're having a profound effect by changing the viable strategies your enemies use against you, which is far from useless. And the moment players go back to being unsafe vs Nydus' they just come right back and win games.
Yeah you have a good point, any time I've used Nydus or had it used against me it has been a coin flip where the person dropping the Nydus basically has to hope he isn't scouted. If people can figure out great ways to use a Nydus reliably and not in such a gimmicky way then I'm all for it. Sure a Nydus isn't *that* expensive it's just if your opponent is decently good your Nydus becomes nothing but a complete waste of money because nobody seems to know how to use it in a way that doesn't rely on luck or your opponent being bad.
That's really all I want to show, that what you said is true, and that these ways probably do exist if players start thinking creatively and using them.
To be honest, I think that almost any change to the nydus would actually make it broken. I am perfectly happy with how it stands right now, though I would like to see them used more.
To everyone saying the nydus unloads too slow, I'm going to respectfully express my opinion that that is complete and utter bullshit. The nydus loads and unloads at the exact same speed as all transports, holds 255 units, and transports instantly across the map without travel time, and each one costs the same as a medivac. + Show Spoiler +
oh how terrans would love it if their medivacs could hold 255 marines. investing 50 more gas into the starport investment would be so worth it. Though really the nuke/nydus comparison is much more accurate, as it is a 100/100 cost for possible terrible terrible damage, but you never hear terrans complaining about the lost cost when they have to cancel their nuke, like to run forward against now unsieging tanks. Nydus can also be used to force someone to pull units similarly.
Only lings and banelings cost less than 2 supply. If you think they unload slow, don't put lings in them (really, do you need 100 lings coming out, or 25 roaches/hydras four times faster? the lings should instead swing around to assault the 3rd or 4th when the enemy pulls to kill the nydus). And as Logo as pointed out, if units are streaming back into a main to kill a nydus, they will be lined up much the same way as the units coming out of a nydus as they will path up ramps and between buildings. And when you use the nydus, you are the one who dictates the battle, where to attack, with what, when to retreat, everything, and that is such a powerful tool.
Although drops can also pick up and leave, they can be scouted on approach as well, and retreat for them is more vulnerable than with a nydus, as air or ground units can still kill them and all the units inside. Retreating through a nydus is easy and painless, and you don't lose the units in the worm when it dies. And they can just pop out another nydus anywhere to deal with a counterattack, or attack on the other side of the map long before the opponent can defend, as the time it takes to deal with a well placed thought out (and not poorly placed for the hell of it) nydus often is fast enough to construct another afterwards if you feel the need to continue the pressure.
A lot of Starcraft 2 is about positioning. And there is no greater tool for exploiting positioning then a nydus network. I always just have to lol when people think instantaneous transport across time and space is too slow or too expensive. Zelniq truly has it right when he says they're the best underused thing in Sc2.
On March 02 2012 23:13 Logo wrote: Stephano does know the positioning, or could easily. He sees when the mutas fly in no marines, he has vision on the 3rd, and has spare lings to poke and prod the main/nat area. That gives him all the tools he'd ever need to know Polt's unit positioning.
So, I watched it from Stephanos perspective now. He has absolutly no intell about the units in the main or the natural. He can't get intell, because there are siegetanks which will deny any poking attempt. For all he knows, his opponent hasn't shown any marines around his 3rd, therefore he has to assume that there are some in the main. He is pretty much blind at this moment in time and any scouting apart from air units will get shut down before he sees a lot. The attack at the third afterwards, is pretty much exactly the situation in which he would have been in if he had nydussed the main: few tanks and marines and scvs defending a base... Just with the difference that he would have had to invest into a nydus (cut into his army count) and would not been able to draw back at all (which he didn't do either, because he was very close to winning the game by staying a little longer) with ling/bling into a nydus, due to the slow loading speed of the nydus (that's right; a nydus does not only unload slowly, but also load slowly)
Stephanos Mutalisks entered the base at 11:31 and turned around at 11:47. If he had put down the Nydus immidiatly the moment he entered, the Nydus would have popped when the marines got there. And I even ran a test for you afterwards: 12 marines on 1/1 with stim and shield against 7mutas and a Nydus unloading zerglings... Still every mutalisk dies. And that's not even assuming that Polt would bring a lot more against a nydus and might use SCVs (as he was losing SCVs anyway, it wouldn't matter if he tries to kill the nydus with it) Your whole example is just lacking realism and that's why every good player in the world gladly takes the +1 attack and 1more muta over a 10:30 nydus worm which might have the potential to do some damage if you get really lucky.
On March 02 2012 23:13 Logo wrote: Stephano does know the positioning, or could easily. He sees when the mutas fly in no marines, he has vision on the 3rd, and has spare lings to poke and prod the main/nat area. That gives him all the tools he'd ever need to know Polt's unit positioning.
So, I watched it from Stephanos perspective now. He has absolutly no intell about the units in the main or the natural. He can't get intell, because there are siegetanks which will deny any poking attempt. For all he knows, his opponent hasn't shown any marines around his 3rd, therefore he has to assume that there are some in the main. He is pretty much blind at this moment in time and any scouting apart from air units will get shut down before he sees a lot. The attack at the third afterwards, is pretty much exactly the situation in which he would have been in if he had nydussed the main: few tanks and marines and scvs defending a base... Just with the difference that he would have had to invest into a nydus (cut into his army count) and would not been able to draw back at all (which he didn't do either, because he was very close to winning the game by staying a little longer) with ling/bling into a nydus, due to the slow loading speed of the nydus (that's right; a nydus does not only unload slowly, but also load slowly)
Stephanos Mutalisks entered the base at 11:31 and turned around at 11:47. If he had put down the Nydus immidiatly the moment he entered, the Nydus would have popped when the marines got there. And I even ran a test for you afterwards: 12 marines on 1/1 with stim and shield against 7mutas and a Nydus unloading zerglings... Still every mutalisk dies. And that's not even assuming that Polt would bring a lot more against a nydus and might use SCVs (as he was losing SCVs anyway, it wouldn't matter if he tries to kill the nydus with it) Your whole example is just lacking realism and that's why every good player in the world gladly takes the +1 attack and 1more muta over a 10:30 nydus worm which might have the potential to do some damage if you get really lucky.
Getting blasted by siege tanks tells enough because it explains a lot about Polt's build, and iirc there's space between the nat and 3rd where he can spot the marines before being in range of siege tanks. If you have 3CCs, at least 2 tech labs (I don't think anyone is going to skip stim for that long by making 1 tech lab, researching siege mode, then researching stim with the same tech lab), numerous hellions (4 I think?), and an investment in siege tanks then you know there's a pretty obvious upper limit to the # of marines that can exist and it's not that high. It's not like this is super late into the game (only 10-11minutes). What kind of build do you envision with siege mode, 4+ hellions, and 3CCs that can have like 40+ marines out. I'm not sure if Stephano saw the upgrades on marines, but that's also another big clue that the marine count is still low.
Also remember that Stephano was floating something like 1000/100 near to this point, I think he manages to spend it all on zerglings, but it's not unreasonable to think smoother player would have given him a better army in comparison, but I didn't want to go down that road because that's too wishy-washy of ifs and buts.
The nydus isn't unloading zerglings, it's unloading banelings then zerglings and did you stim + expire the stim on the marines so they have 35hp instead of 45? The marines didn't have shield either, just 1/1. Stephano has banelings and Nydus 101 should be that you load in the important units first so they emerge first. Hell it might even be optimal to send a queen out first for tanky HP and possible transfuse (if you missed an inject). You can always dump her back in the worm if she's targeted or if she needs to get back to inject.
If he brings more vs a Nydus then he loses his 3rd which was my point from the start (unless you mean the 3 tanks at the nat, which would arrive well after the nydus popped and would leave the nat undefended completely).
Yes the marines would have gotten there immediately if Polt moves immediately, but instead Polt moved 6s after the mutas entered the base meaning the worm would finish first, never mind the conflicting goals of protecting the scvs and preventing the worm from finishing.
Think about it like this, the mutas + worm in your base means there are 2 distinct threats in two different locations within your main that are both equally as important in a way that even 3 extra mutas wouldn't be able to provide. Whether or not you can make use of that depends on map, builds, and positioning. Take it even further, even if you don't expect the worm to complete, but the worm is 4-5 seconds of walking away from the mutalisks that's up to 6s you buy (4 walking + ~2 to kill the worm with 13 marines) over 240 damage the mutalisks get to put out for the 100/100 cost of the worm plus another 100 out of bounce attacks. That's enough to kill 6-7 scvs (350min loss immediately + lost mining time of those dead scvs + the extra 4-6s the scvs are likely running from mutas and not mining. More than enough to pay for the worm). Pull the SCVs onto the worm and maybe you fair better, but it's still 4-8s of lost mining time + a lot of dead scvs and who knows if it'd be enough to stop the worm in time (plus remember smart play means banelings pop out first and all the scvs would be around the worm).
In general I'm showing an overall concept anyways, but using a specific example to sell it. Muta harass (or even later attacking with broodlords to cover the nydus construction rather than attacking into the tank line itself) can open up a safe nydus in someone's base. Another example of that kind of situation is on metalopolis where you can snipe the supply depot in the fog then harass the scvs while the worm builds which combines both surprise and actual effectiveness*.
*In this situation someone is going to say, if it's popular players will expect it. Well yeah they might but what are their responses. If they build a missile turret there as a popular response then you've won an advantage for the 7/10 or 8/10 times you don't make the nydus with mutas. If they run their marines there (or split) to attack the nydus you've opened up more time to attack/harass with the mutas, especially in the times where you don't make the nydus. If they go to spot with 1-2 marines to see if the nydus is there then run the rest of the army down to kill it, they're cutting it really close.
Again even if the nydus can be countered, which if it's balanced it should be counterable, the point is that if people actually use Nydus worms like this occasionally they become a deterrent and gain you an advantage in all the times you don't make Nydus worms.
All I play is zerg and whenever I consider the option of making a nydus network I say WOWWOWOWOW 200 gas???? NVM. And then thinking about the extra 100 gas EVERY TIME you make a nydus worm . WTF. NERF PLS. ALSO, nydus worms die SO FAST when building. If the worm hp was increased to 500, making them much more tanky, then they wouldn't get PICKED OFF BY WORKERS. You would think that for a building that costs 100 / 100 they would give it a bit more hp than it has. LOOK AT THE EVO CHAMBER: 75 minerals and 750 HP! NYDUS WORM: 100 / 100 and 200 HP! They are BOTH buildings!!
goswser uses it well... but even then he gets like 3-4 nydus at once to be able to abuse multi pronged harrassment and keeping opponent running. only time ive ever been significantly concerned about nydus' are when he uses them. but even then if you maintain map awareness you can still deflect it. i dont think people know how to use nydus effectively enough yet and in what scenarios they should be used
On March 02 2012 23:13 Logo wrote: Stephano does know the positioning, or could easily. He sees when the mutas fly in no marines, he has vision on the 3rd, and has spare lings to poke and prod the main/nat area. That gives him all the tools he'd ever need to know Polt's unit positioning.
So, I watched it from Stephanos perspective now. He has absolutly no intell about the units in the main or the natural. He can't get intell, because there are siegetanks which will deny any poking attempt. For all he knows, his opponent hasn't shown any marines around his 3rd, therefore he has to assume that there are some in the main. He is pretty much blind at this moment in time and any scouting apart from air units will get shut down before he sees a lot. The attack at the third afterwards, is pretty much exactly the situation in which he would have been in if he had nydussed the main: few tanks and marines and scvs defending a base... Just with the difference that he would have had to invest into a nydus (cut into his army count) and would not been able to draw back at all (which he didn't do either, because he was very close to winning the game by staying a little longer) with ling/bling into a nydus, due to the slow loading speed of the nydus (that's right; a nydus does not only unload slowly, but also load slowly)
Stephanos Mutalisks entered the base at 11:31 and turned around at 11:47. If he had put down the Nydus immidiatly the moment he entered, the Nydus would have popped when the marines got there. And I even ran a test for you afterwards: 12 marines on 1/1 with stim and shield against 7mutas and a Nydus unloading zerglings... Still every mutalisk dies. And that's not even assuming that Polt would bring a lot more against a nydus and might use SCVs (as he was losing SCVs anyway, it wouldn't matter if he tries to kill the nydus with it) Your whole example is just lacking realism and that's why every good player in the world gladly takes the +1 attack and 1more muta over a 10:30 nydus worm which might have the potential to do some damage if you get really lucky.
Getting blasted by siege tanks tells enough because it explains a lot about Polt's build, and iirc there's space between the nat and 3rd where he can spot the marines before being in range of siege tanks. If you have 3CCs, at least 2 tech labs (I don't think anyone is going to skip stim for that long by making 1 tech lab, researching siege mode, then researching stim with the same tech lab), numerous hellions (4 I think?), and an investment in siege tanks then you know there's a pretty obvious upper limit to the # of marines that can exist and it's not that high. It's not like this is super late into the game (only 10-11minutes). What kind of build do you envision with siege mode, 4+ hellions, and 3CCs that can have like 40+ marines out. I'm not sure if Stephano saw the upgrades on marines, but that's also another big clue that the marine count is still low.
Also remember that Stephano was floating something like 1000/100 near to this point, I think he manages to spend it all on zerglings, but it's not unreasonable to think smoother player would have given him a better army in comparison, but I didn't want to go down that road because that's too wishy-washy of ifs and buts.
Absolutly. There are builds out there that have the 40marines at that point. Polt had 25 and a bunch of upgrades going and reactors being built and 800minerals floating himself... And Stephano spent his money on double expanding afterwards. It's the normal problem when facing a hellion expand. You can't take a third, so the only way to keep up with Terrans base count is to take 3rd and 4th very fast, which you will need to bunker up some money for. And even if it would be a mistake, it still shows that Stephano is not capeable of playing it smooth enough to get the things you want him to have at that point (and Polt's macro wasn't better).
On March 03 2012 00:53 Logo wrote: The nydus isn't unloading zerglings, it's unloading banelings then zerglings and did you stim + expire the stim on the marines so they have 35hp instead of 45? The marines didn't have shield either, just 1/1. Stephano has banelings and Nydus 101 should be that you load in the important units first so they emerge first. Hell it might even be optimal to send a queen out first for tanky HP and possible transfuse (if you missed an inject). You can always dump her back in the worm if she's targeted or if she needs to get back to inject.
If he brings more vs a Nydus then he loses his 3rd which was my point from the start (unless you mean the 3 tanks at the nat, which would arrive well after the nydus popped and would leave the nat undefended completely).
Yes the marines would have gotten there immediately if Polt moves immediately, but instead Polt moved 6s after the mutas entered the base meaning the worm would finish first, never mind the conflicting goals of protecting the scvs and preventing the worm from finishing.
You misunderstood. After being terrible out of position against the mutalisks and a huge reaction time of 6sec, Polts Marines still drove Stephanos Mutalisks away at 11:47. At that time a perfectly planted and completly luckbased (as Stephano doesn't know that there is nothing there and Polt is not producing either, the moment he flies into the base) Nydus Worm would still take 4more seconds to finish, assuming that Polt wouldn't just right click all of his SCVs on the Nydus instead of letting them die in his mineral line.
And I generally get your idea of: mutas cleaning up and Nydus being planted down afterwards. I just don't see it working, nor do I have made good experiences with it. It's usually a waste of army and ressources to do minimal damage to buildings. Your opponent is either going to pull his workers away, or using is workers to kill the Nydus. Only a misjudgement on his side will allow you to do real economical damage, unless you manage to move your whole army of ling/bling through it and manage to beat his army in a situation that is as choky as possible. Well, I guess you can use it for counterattacks (which you can also use your fast units for, most of the time), but there is no way that this works with ling/bling/muta armies vs Terran.
On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote: A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base 2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp) 3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them 4. Profit..
or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300.
And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes.
Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple.
what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus.
In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs)
Shocked that nobody called you out on this.
Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop.
On March 02 2012 23:13 Logo wrote: Stephano does know the positioning, or could easily. He sees when the mutas fly in no marines, he has vision on the 3rd, and has spare lings to poke and prod the main/nat area. That gives him all the tools he'd ever need to know Polt's unit positioning.
So, I watched it from Stephanos perspective now. He has absolutly no intell about the units in the main or the natural. He can't get intell, because there are siegetanks which will deny any poking attempt. For all he knows, his opponent hasn't shown any marines around his 3rd, therefore he has to assume that there are some in the main. He is pretty much blind at this moment in time and any scouting apart from air units will get shut down before he sees a lot. The attack at the third afterwards, is pretty much exactly the situation in which he would have been in if he had nydussed the main: few tanks and marines and scvs defending a base... Just with the difference that he would have had to invest into a nydus (cut into his army count) and would not been able to draw back at all (which he didn't do either, because he was very close to winning the game by staying a little longer) with ling/bling into a nydus, due to the slow loading speed of the nydus (that's right; a nydus does not only unload slowly, but also load slowly)
Stephanos Mutalisks entered the base at 11:31 and turned around at 11:47. If he had put down the Nydus immidiatly the moment he entered, the Nydus would have popped when the marines got there. And I even ran a test for you afterwards: 12 marines on 1/1 with stim and shield against 7mutas and a Nydus unloading zerglings... Still every mutalisk dies. And that's not even assuming that Polt would bring a lot more against a nydus and might use SCVs (as he was losing SCVs anyway, it wouldn't matter if he tries to kill the nydus with it) Your whole example is just lacking realism and that's why every good player in the world gladly takes the +1 attack and 1more muta over a 10:30 nydus worm which might have the potential to do some damage if you get really lucky.
Getting blasted by siege tanks tells enough because it explains a lot about Polt's build, and iirc there's space between the nat and 3rd where he can spot the marines before being in range of siege tanks. If you have 3CCs, at least 2 tech labs (I don't think anyone is going to skip stim for that long by making 1 tech lab, researching siege mode, then researching stim with the same tech lab), numerous hellions (4 I think?), and an investment in siege tanks then you know there's a pretty obvious upper limit to the # of marines that can exist and it's not that high. It's not like this is super late into the game (only 10-11minutes). What kind of build do you envision with siege mode, 4+ hellions, and 3CCs that can have like 40+ marines out. I'm not sure if Stephano saw the upgrades on marines, but that's also another big clue that the marine count is still low.
Also remember that Stephano was floating something like 1000/100 near to this point, I think he manages to spend it all on zerglings, but it's not unreasonable to think smoother player would have given him a better army in comparison, but I didn't want to go down that road because that's too wishy-washy of ifs and buts.
Absolutly. There are builds out there that have the 40marines at that point. Polt had 25 and a bunch of upgrades going and reactors being built and 800minerals floating himself... And Stephano spent his money on double expanding afterwards. It's the normal problem when facing a hellion expand. You can't take a third, so the only way to keep up with Terrans base count is to take 3rd and 4th very fast, which you will need to bunker up some money for. And even if it would be a mistake, it still shows that Stephano is not capeable of playing it smooth enough to get the things you want him to have at that point (and Polt's macro wasn't better).
On March 03 2012 00:53 Logo wrote: The nydus isn't unloading zerglings, it's unloading banelings then zerglings and did you stim + expire the stim on the marines so they have 35hp instead of 45? The marines didn't have shield either, just 1/1. Stephano has banelings and Nydus 101 should be that you load in the important units first so they emerge first. Hell it might even be optimal to send a queen out first for tanky HP and possible transfuse (if you missed an inject). You can always dump her back in the worm if she's targeted or if she needs to get back to inject.
If he brings more vs a Nydus then he loses his 3rd which was my point from the start (unless you mean the 3 tanks at the nat, which would arrive well after the nydus popped and would leave the nat undefended completely).
Yes the marines would have gotten there immediately if Polt moves immediately, but instead Polt moved 6s after the mutas entered the base meaning the worm would finish first, never mind the conflicting goals of protecting the scvs and preventing the worm from finishing.
You misunderstood. After being terrible out of position against the mutalisks and a huge reaction time of 6sec, Polts Marines still drove Stephanos Mutalisks away at 11:47. At that time a perfectly planted and completly luckbased (as Stephano doesn't know that there is nothing there and Polt is not producing either, the moment he flies into the base) Nydus Worm would still take 4more seconds to finish, assuming that Polt wouldn't just right click all of his SCVs on the Nydus instead of letting them die in his mineral line.
And I generally get your idea of: mutas cleaning up and Nydus being planted down afterwards. I just don't see it working, nor do I have made good experiences with it. It's usually a waste of army and ressources to do minimal damage to buildings. Your opponent is either going to pull his workers away, or using is workers to kill the Nydus. Only a misjudgement on his side will allow you to do real economical damage, unless you manage to move your whole army of ling/bling through it and manage to beat his army in a situation that is as choky as possible. Well, I guess you can use it for counterattacks (which you can also use your fast units for, most of the time), but there is no way that this works with ling/bling/muta armies vs Terran.
11:47 they drove them away from the scvs, if I'm understanding your point correctly, but this was at the ramp and then on to the mineral line by 11:50-11:52 iirc which is closer by about 3-4 seconds then where you'd reasonably place the nydus worm. If you mean they reach the mineral line at 11:47 that's closer in timing but still you have... worm @ 11:30 Marines push back mutas at 11:47 then another 3-4 seconds to get to the worm unless they stim again (which would give them 25hp). Plus by moving the marines away from the mutas you aren't covering the scvs anymore unless you split the 13 marines or take the scvs with you.
The base is only really choked up near the ramp and the nydus is on the opposite side. There's likely to be a dance with lings/marines just like you see slightly later at the 3rd in that game, but that's fine. You also have to remember if the nydus is going to have temporary success it can almost always have long term success (you can start a 2nd worm after the 1st if you think it is going well).
I'm curious how many times you've tried something like this since you say that you have and it doesn't work. I've played 100s of Master level ladder games trying to get good replays of this but for every 100 ladder games I get about 33 Terrans give or take. Maybe 10 of those are on maps like Xel'Naga Caverns or Entombed Valley where I wouldn't try this strategy (the current pool is better of course, historically the odds were much worse). Then out of the remaining 23 Terrans you can usually expect like 1/2-3/4 of that to cheese, 2-base, or go another strategy on you. So of the 5-10 remaining games I need a game where neither of us mess up (unlikely), both have relatively good macro (also unlikely), I scout properly (also unlikely) and we're both evenly matched so it's not just my opponent being bad (unlikely). So you're looking at 100 ladder games with like 1/100 chance to actually have a game that's a good showcase and like maybe 3 or so games where you use a worm to beat up on someone who made a mistake or is an inferior player. Then maybe double that if you count in ZvP uses (ZvZ I haven't seen a common use I like in a long time though I used to do mid/late roach movements with nydus).
In my humble opinion nydus looks like its meant to be for offensive strategies while the majority of zergs prefare a more defensive way of playing. I wish blizzard would push the nydus into a more defensive role. for instance like this: -MUCH faster unload ratio -longer build time (and/or more fragile while being constructed) If it would be that way i could connect my bases with nyduses and defend expansions against drops or pushes etc. Of course the build time of a nydus worm must be increased then. otherwise sneaking in a nydus in the opponents base would be far too strong if it works. But then again i think for this type of push you already have overlord drop. I think that would be a cool way to give nydus a more defined role while coexisting with overlord drop mechanic.
On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote: A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base 2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp) 3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them 4. Profit..
or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300.
And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes.
Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple.
what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus.
In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs)
Shocked that nobody called you out on this.
Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop.
and how so? I mean, if a Terran can stim up to the OLs in a corner of the base, they can also stim up to the same corner and kill 1 Nydus Worm that has as much HP and armor as 1 OL. And the same is true for blinking stalkers. And a Nydus doesn't load up fast, it loads up with double the speed it unloads, which means 2 units per second. If you have only 20 units in his base, that's already 10sec. The only thing that the Nydus is better for in this scenario, is that it is easier to rigthclick your Nydus once, than to shiftclick your OLs and then send them out, but honestly: that's just a question of training. Once you get it right, OL escape is better than nydus escape (unless he has air)
On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote: A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base 2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp) 3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them 4. Profit..
or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300.
And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes.
Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple.
what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus.
In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs)
Shocked that nobody called you out on this.
Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop.
and how so? I mean, if a Terran can stim up to the OLs in a corner of the base, they can also stim up to the same corner and kill 1 Nydus Worm that has as much HP and armor as 1 OL. And the same is true for blinking stalkers. And a Nydus doesn't load up fast, it loads up with double the speed it unloads, which means 2 units per second. If you have only 20 units in his base, that's already 10sec. The only thing that the Nydus is better for in this scenario, is that it is easier to rigthclick your Nydus once, than to shiftclick your OLs and then send them out, but honestly: that's just a question of training. Once you get it right, OL escape is better than nydus escape (unless he has air)
They can't pick off the Nydus worm without wading through your units, which should leave you with a cost effective trade if they try. Which makes escape moot, as a cost-effective trade is always good for zerg. I'm also fairly certain the load/unload rate is a little faster than that (and you will have a definite head start as any zerg unit on creep besides Queens are at least as fast as any P/T ground unit).
Edit: Nevermind on the load/unload rates. Still, units in overlords are easily picked off. Units actively fighting back until they enter the worm are not. The Nydus will allow you do either do more damage or save more units every time.
On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote: A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base 2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp) 3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them 4. Profit..
or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300.
And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes.
Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple.
what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus.
In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs)
Shocked that nobody called you out on this.
Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop.
and how so? I mean, if a Terran can stim up to the OLs in a corner of the base, they can also stim up to the same corner and kill 1 Nydus Worm that has as much HP and armor as 1 OL. And the same is true for blinking stalkers. And a Nydus doesn't load up fast, it loads up with double the speed it unloads, which means 2 units per second. If you have only 20 units in his base, that's already 10sec. The only thing that the Nydus is better for in this scenario, is that it is easier to rigthclick your Nydus once, than to shiftclick your OLs and then send them out, but honestly: that's just a question of training. Once you get it right, OL escape is better than nydus escape (unless he has air)
They can't pick off the Nydus worm without wading through your units, which should leave you with a cost effective trade if they try. Which makes escape moot, as a cost-effective trade is always good for zerg. I'm also fairly certain the load/unload rate is a little faster than that (and you will have a definite head start as any zerg unit on creep besides Queens are at least as fast as any P/T ground unit).
Edit: Nevermind on the load/unload rates. Still, units in overlords are easily picked off. Units actively fighting back until they enter the worm are not. The Nydus will allow you do either do more damage or save more units every time.
If you can trade efficiently, why would you consider leaving in the first place... Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever. And let's say it would make sense (what it does not), you can still do the same with OLs... just leave some units behind.
Btw, if you ever used a Nydus against Protoss, you will find out that FFs are pretty good to prevent retreats through Nydus Worms. I'm really stunned that people actually defend getting drops to get into a base and Nydus to get out of the same base... That's 500/600! For that money, you better win the game with the drop in the first place!
The nydus' funtion in BW was purely defensive, and was much better at it as it had much faster unit transportation rates. Currently there are a lot of differences between BW and SC2 which basically make them useless for this application:
1) Creep. The main objective of the Nydus Worm was mobility. Assuming you have proper creep spread you should have enough advanced warning and time to simply run your army over in time, especially considering how small most SC2 maps are compared to BW. Due to the slow load/unload rate I wouldn't be surprised to find that it's faster to simply run across the map instead of going back to your nydus at your main, and taking that route. Your zerg army should be present on the map anyways. Most good zergs don't have their army hanging out in their main waiting to be quickly nydused to their distant expo.
2) In SC2 Zerg likes to engage in the open. Engaging from inside your base means that you're in a restricted area which is advantageous to your Terran/Toss opponent. In BW, the metagame was such that, especially for TvZ, Zerg was typically down in supply for a good part of the early and middle game, and expands and defends behind sim-city/lurker/dark swarm/nydus at ramp/nat front until they could get the gas for heavy Ultra/Swarm armies. Due to lurker AoE, Terran would want to be engaging in the open in this instance. Therefore Zerg needed a way to get armies to natural without having to traverse open ground where Terran would have the advantage until heavy Dark Swarm.
So basically a Nydus slowly gets your army to where you don't want it to be. Even assuming you have terrible creep spread so you don't realize your opponent's army is moving out until it's positioned in the choke of your 4th, you'll want to bring your army across and engage from the outside, where you'll have more surface area. If you try to attack from outside your expansion your units will be getting clumped around buildings running out into seige tank/collosus splash. Even for small attacks, in both MU mutas are becoming so common in both vT and vP that you already have the extremely mobile army that annihilates smaller forces.
I have seen some really good nydus play on maps like metalopolis where zerg will go for an attack on the 3rd and 4th, and then pull up the ramp to their 5th to where their nydus was placed and get their whole army away when they otherwise would have been boxed in at the 4th. So there's potential, but I mean, Zerg is so much faster than the other races that it's sort of redundant.
I personally would love to see them used more like forward pylons for positional gain.
It feels like most Zerg players see the Nydus as an all-in mechanic or they feel like they HAVE to place the nydus as close to the enemy as possible hoping against hope they don't get spotted inside someone's base. It's akin to a protoss player trying to force a probe into someone's base hoping the probe doesn't get spotted and that the pylon in the back of the base doesn't get spotted. But we've seen now from countless games that a simple forward pylon near, but not next to, an enemy base has all kinds of benefits as they're much harder to scout and the gain from reduced travel times and bypassed defensive lines can be quite devastating.
However I would agree the unload times and gas cost might be preventing the Nydus from reaching full potential...
It's one of the most useful and underused structures but like people are saying it costs too much, and it's not like overlord speed which is a permanent upgrade (worms get killed). People don't get overlord speed enough as it is, but fortunately I think TLO is a pioneer for drop play in modern-day zerg play. Uh, just start using Nydus more tho?
On March 03 2012 03:34 Warblade! wrote: I personally would love to see them used more like forward pylons for positional gain.
It feels like most Zerg players see the Nydus as an all-in mechanic or they feel like they HAVE to place the nydus as close to the enemy as possible hoping against hope they don't get spotted inside someone's base. It's akin to a protoss player trying to force a probe into someone's base hoping the probe doesn't get spotted and that the pylon in the back of the base doesn't get spotted. But we've seen now from countless games that a simple forward pylon near, but not next to, an enemy base has all kinds of benefits as they're much harder to scout and the gain from reduced travel times and bypassed defensive lines can be quite devastating.
However I would agree the unload times and gas cost might be preventing the Nydus from reaching full potential...
in the situation you are describing:
the nydus worm (intended for moving units quickly) are somewhere that the zerg can already get to, which means its somewhere on the contested territory on the map. the contested territory (aka middle of the map) is where the zerg normally keeps its army.
lets say the contested territoryis so big that a standard speed unit (zealot, marine, maruader etc.) requires 30 seconds to pass through.
that would mean that most zerg units, being faster, requires slightly more than 20 seconds to pass through when off creep, less than 20 seconds on creep.
so what travel time is there really to reduce? it might very well take 15 seconds to send some army to the closest nydus worm and unload them, so we saved 5 seconds.
in total: as others have said: unless placed where your army normally cannot reach, they are kinda redundant.
it's really ridiculous a whole ultralisk can pop out, but lings/roaches/hydras come out one at a time. WTF? If an entire ultra can pop out at ones, you would assume 6-8 lings or 4 roaches/hydras could come out.
Combine that with the fact that they are brutally expensive, fragile, good players usually catch them, loud, and cannot be cancelled...well yeah.
On March 03 2012 03:34 Warblade! wrote: I personally would love to see them used more like forward pylons for positional gain.
It feels like most Zerg players see the Nydus as an all-in mechanic or they feel like they HAVE to place the nydus as close to the enemy as possible hoping against hope they don't get spotted inside someone's base. It's akin to a protoss player trying to force a probe into someone's base hoping the probe doesn't get spotted and that the pylon in the back of the base doesn't get spotted. But we've seen now from countless games that a simple forward pylon near, but not next to, an enemy base has all kinds of benefits as they're much harder to scout and the gain from reduced travel times and bypassed defensive lines can be quite devastating.
However I would agree the unload times and gas cost might be preventing the Nydus from reaching full potential...
in the situation you are describing:
the nydus worm (intended for moving units quickly) are somewhere that the zerg can already get to, which means its somewhere on the contested territory on the map. the contested territory (aka middle of the map) is where the zerg normally keeps its army.
lets say the contested territoryis so big that a standard speed unit (zealot, marine, maruader etc.) requires 30 seconds to pass through.
that would mean that most zerg units, being faster, requires slightly more than 20 seconds to pass through when off creep, less than 20 seconds on creep.
so what travel time is there really to reduce? it might very well take 15 seconds to send some army to the closest nydus worm and unload them, so we saved 5 seconds.
in total: as others have said: unless placed where your army normally cannot reach, they are kinda redundant.
You need to think about the path with units included. I can maybe walk from my base -> a or walk from my base -> b both of which take 30s, or a->b in 30s, but if the direct a->b path is choked off then to get from a->b I have to go through my own base for a 60s travel time. You can imagine this on metal if your opponent controls his middle expansion area and you are by one of the mains.
Not to mention the build time isn't always a factor. For example on metal I can hit the 3rd from the far side (away from opponent's main) with a nydus out in the natural of the empty base nearby. As that happens I can build a nydus near the opponent's natural (again far enough away not to be spotted). As I retreat into the worm from the arriving forces my opponent has 3 options, he either turns back, pushes towards the worm, or splits his forces. If he does 1 or 2 then one of the 2 bases I can hit really quickly are undefended. If he does 3 then unless it's a really well done split (or I don't spot his choice quickly enough) I can pour back out and overwhelm the weaker part of the split.
Also don't overestimate the speed of infestors or roaches. Off creep a speed roach is the same speed as a stalker.
On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote: A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base 2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp) 3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them 4. Profit..
or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300.
And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes.
Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple.
what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus.
In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs)
Shocked that nobody called you out on this.
Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop.
and how so? I mean, if a Terran can stim up to the OLs in a corner of the base, they can also stim up to the same corner and kill 1 Nydus Worm that has as much HP and armor as 1 OL. And the same is true for blinking stalkers. And a Nydus doesn't load up fast, it loads up with double the speed it unloads, which means 2 units per second. If you have only 20 units in his base, that's already 10sec. The only thing that the Nydus is better for in this scenario, is that it is easier to rigthclick your Nydus once, than to shiftclick your OLs and then send them out, but honestly: that's just a question of training. Once you get it right, OL escape is better than nydus escape (unless he has air)
No, nydus escape is far superior to overlord escape. Once your units are in the nydus again, they are completely safe, but if they retreat into overlords, they are not. Any ground antiair units can easily still pick off the overlords (they're slow even upgraded) before they are out of range of the edge of the cliff (especially stimmed marines), and any air units can chase and massacre what's left. While your nydus could get sniped before you leave, your units that are trying to go back through it will prevent the enemy from getting into range of the nydus to kill it before you leave, unlike with overlords which have to be above your units instead of behind. Overlords have to sit over the edge of the cliff to pick up and then retreat and are still not safe, leaving them much more vulnerable.
On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote: A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base 2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp) 3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them 4. Profit..
or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300.
And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes.
Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple.
what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus.
In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs)
Shocked that nobody called you out on this.
Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop.
and how so? I mean, if a Terran can stim up to the OLs in a corner of the base, they can also stim up to the same corner and kill 1 Nydus Worm that has as much HP and armor as 1 OL. And the same is true for blinking stalkers. And a Nydus doesn't load up fast, it loads up with double the speed it unloads, which means 2 units per second. If you have only 20 units in his base, that's already 10sec. The only thing that the Nydus is better for in this scenario, is that it is easier to rigthclick your Nydus once, than to shiftclick your OLs and then send them out, but honestly: that's just a question of training. Once you get it right, OL escape is better than nydus escape (unless he has air)
No, nydus escape is far superior to overlord escape. Once your units are in the nydus again, they are completely safe, but if they retreat into overlords, they are not. Any ground antiair units can easily still pick off the overlords (they're slow even upgraded) before they are out of range of the edge of the cliff (especially stimmed marines), and any air units can chase and massacre what's left. While your nydus could get sniped before you leave, your units that are trying to go back through it will prevent the enemy from getting into range of the nydus to kill it before you leave, unlike with overlords which have to be above your units instead of behind. Overlords have to sit over the edge of the cliff to pick up and then retreat and are still not safe, leaving them much more vulnerable.
Just don't make the mistake of telling the entire army to move into the worm at once in this situation. Micro groups at a time so the rest fight back while others load in.
On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote: A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base 2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp) 3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them 4. Profit..
or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300.
And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes.
Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple.
what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus.
In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs)
Shocked that nobody called you out on this.
Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop.
and how so? I mean, if a Terran can stim up to the OLs in a corner of the base, they can also stim up to the same corner and kill 1 Nydus Worm that has as much HP and armor as 1 OL. And the same is true for blinking stalkers. And a Nydus doesn't load up fast, it loads up with double the speed it unloads, which means 2 units per second. If you have only 20 units in his base, that's already 10sec. The only thing that the Nydus is better for in this scenario, is that it is easier to rigthclick your Nydus once, than to shiftclick your OLs and then send them out, but honestly: that's just a question of training. Once you get it right, OL escape is better than nydus escape (unless he has air)
They can't pick off the Nydus worm without wading through your units, which should leave you with a cost effective trade if they try. Which makes escape moot, as a cost-effective trade is always good for zerg. I'm also fairly certain the load/unload rate is a little faster than that (and you will have a definite head start as any zerg unit on creep besides Queens are at least as fast as any P/T ground unit).
Edit: Nevermind on the load/unload rates. Still, units in overlords are easily picked off. Units actively fighting back until they enter the worm are not. The Nydus will allow you do either do more damage or save more units every time.
If you can trade efficiently, why would you consider leaving in the first place... Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever. And let's say it would make sense (what it does not), you can still do the same with OLs... just leave some units behind.
Btw, if you ever used a Nydus against Protoss, you will find out that FFs are pretty good to prevent retreats through Nydus Worms. I'm really stunned that people actually defend getting drops to get into a base and Nydus to get out of the same base... That's 500/600! For that money, you better win the game with the drop in the first place!
...
If the opponent is wading through/around/past your units to pick off the worm, you will get at least one extra volley off on his units that you wouldn't otherwise. What I'm saying is it's OKAY if he picks off the worm, because he's sacrificing a bunch of units to do it.
In regards to leaving units behind to buy time to retreat, why not Nydus, so that you don't have to sacrifice units? You won't have to worry about overlords full of units just hanging out/cut off from the rest of your army that way, and you have the added option of popping them somewhere else way far away.
Sentries are incredibly slow, and should be unable to cast FF until after you're able to react to their presence, assuming you're not awful. If they lead with the stalkers, run away! If they lead with the sentries, pick off the sentries! Pretty straight-forward concept, and any zerg should be happy with throwing away a few roaches for a bunch of sentries.
And finally, you're not spending 600/600 for a single attack and retreat, as you will continue to have drop and Nydus tech throughout the rest of the game. Stop being disingenuous.
On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote: A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base 2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp) 3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them 4. Profit..
or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300.
And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes.
Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple.
what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus.
In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs)
Shocked that nobody called you out on this.
Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop.
and how so? I mean, if a Terran can stim up to the OLs in a corner of the base, they can also stim up to the same corner and kill 1 Nydus Worm that has as much HP and armor as 1 OL. And the same is true for blinking stalkers. And a Nydus doesn't load up fast, it loads up with double the speed it unloads, which means 2 units per second. If you have only 20 units in his base, that's already 10sec. The only thing that the Nydus is better for in this scenario, is that it is easier to rigthclick your Nydus once, than to shiftclick your OLs and then send them out, but honestly: that's just a question of training. Once you get it right, OL escape is better than nydus escape (unless he has air)
They can't pick off the Nydus worm without wading through your units, which should leave you with a cost effective trade if they try. Which makes escape moot, as a cost-effective trade is always good for zerg. I'm also fairly certain the load/unload rate is a little faster than that (and you will have a definite head start as any zerg unit on creep besides Queens are at least as fast as any P/T ground unit).
Edit: Nevermind on the load/unload rates. Still, units in overlords are easily picked off. Units actively fighting back until they enter the worm are not. The Nydus will allow you do either do more damage or save more units every time.
If you can trade efficiently, why would you consider leaving in the first place... Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever. And let's say it would make sense (what it does not), you can still do the same with OLs... just leave some units behind.
Btw, if you ever used a Nydus against Protoss, you will find out that FFs are pretty good to prevent retreats through Nydus Worms. I'm really stunned that people actually defend getting drops to get into a base and Nydus to get out of the same base... That's 500/600! For that money, you better win the game with the drop in the first place!
...
If the opponent is wading through/around/past your units to pick off the worm, you will get at least one extra volley off on his units that you wouldn't otherwise. What I'm saying is it's OKAY if he picks off the worm, because he's sacrificing a bunch of units to do it.
In regards to leaving units behind to buy time to retreat, why not Nydus, so that you don't have to sacrifice units? You won't have to worry about overlords full of units just hanging out/cut off from the rest of your army that way, and you have the added option of popping them somewhere else way far away.
Sentries are incredibly slow, and should be unable to cast FF until after you're able to react to their presence, assuming you're not awful. If they lead with the stalkers, run away! If they lead with the sentries, pick off the sentries! Pretty straight-forward concept, and any zerg should be happy with throwing away a few roaches for a bunch of sentries.
And finally, you're not spending 600/600 for a single attack and retreat, as you will continue to have drop and Nydus tech throughout the rest of the game. Stop being disingenuous.
So I get my extra volley and lose everything that has not escaped in the Nydus up to that point. Every opponent is gladly taking that deal. If I pick up, I'm out of there with everything but maybe 1-3OLs lost (assuming I'm not as good as someone like TLO, who makes it out with more usually; also depending on the attack), if I'm lucky those were empty.
Of course sentries should not always get there easily, but the more units you drop, the longer it will take you to load them back up into the nydus, which gives sentries a lot of time to catch up and trap everything that hasn't made it into the nydus yet.
Of course I keep my Network and my drops... Yet I fail to see what the Network can do, what I can't do with my drops already.And I'm absolutly not worried about having my army split, when I'm dropping my opponent and retreating with OLs because his army drove me away. And you know why? Because most of his army is in his main.
Also I fail to see any situation in which you want to do this kind of thing. When you drop 8-16 supply of units? Try to pick them up and leave, but don't put down a nydus that they can't reach anyway! When you drop 20-50 supply of units in an early midgame drop attack? Show me that build that has potential to do damage and spare gas for the nydus at that time. In a huge doom drop? You don't retreat with that kind of thing. That attack is meant to force an army engagement, just not in the position where the opponent is. In the lategame? (Double) Nydus with Ultras is better, you absolutly don't need to drop in and retreat with a Nydus. You go in with (double) Nydus and go out with (double) Nydus.
I'm somewhat wondering if you have even tried what you are talking about. Terrans don't bring spare medivacs for their drops, Protoss don't rush motherships to retreat with attacks and zergs don't build nyduses to get out of a base in which they came in with OLs. Go and watch good zerg players dropping. You will see that there is absolutly no need for extra investments for retreats. When they want to get out, they pick up and go out. It's as easy as it sounds.
On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote: A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base 2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp) 3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them 4. Profit..
or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300.
And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes.
Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple.
what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus.
In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs)
Shocked that nobody called you out on this.
Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop.
and how so? I mean, if a Terran can stim up to the OLs in a corner of the base, they can also stim up to the same corner and kill 1 Nydus Worm that has as much HP and armor as 1 OL. And the same is true for blinking stalkers. And a Nydus doesn't load up fast, it loads up with double the speed it unloads, which means 2 units per second. If you have only 20 units in his base, that's already 10sec. The only thing that the Nydus is better for in this scenario, is that it is easier to rigthclick your Nydus once, than to shiftclick your OLs and then send them out, but honestly: that's just a question of training. Once you get it right, OL escape is better than nydus escape (unless he has air)
They can't pick off the Nydus worm without wading through your units, which should leave you with a cost effective trade if they try. Which makes escape moot, as a cost-effective trade is always good for zerg. I'm also fairly certain the load/unload rate is a little faster than that (and you will have a definite head start as any zerg unit on creep besides Queens are at least as fast as any P/T ground unit).
Edit: Nevermind on the load/unload rates. Still, units in overlords are easily picked off. Units actively fighting back until they enter the worm are not. The Nydus will allow you do either do more damage or save more units every time.
If you can trade efficiently, why would you consider leaving in the first place... Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever. And let's say it would make sense (what it does not), you can still do the same with OLs... just leave some units behind.
Btw, if you ever used a Nydus against Protoss, you will find out that FFs are pretty good to prevent retreats through Nydus Worms. I'm really stunned that people actually defend getting drops to get into a base and Nydus to get out of the same base... That's 500/600! For that money, you better win the game with the drop in the first place!
...
If the opponent is wading through/around/past your units to pick off the worm, you will get at least one extra volley off on his units that you wouldn't otherwise. What I'm saying is it's OKAY if he picks off the worm, because he's sacrificing a bunch of units to do it.
In regards to leaving units behind to buy time to retreat, why not Nydus, so that you don't have to sacrifice units? You won't have to worry about overlords full of units just hanging out/cut off from the rest of your army that way, and you have the added option of popping them somewhere else way far away.
Sentries are incredibly slow, and should be unable to cast FF until after you're able to react to their presence, assuming you're not awful. If they lead with the stalkers, run away! If they lead with the sentries, pick off the sentries! Pretty straight-forward concept, and any zerg should be happy with throwing away a few roaches for a bunch of sentries.
And finally, you're not spending 600/600 for a single attack and retreat, as you will continue to have drop and Nydus tech throughout the rest of the game. Stop being disingenuous.
So I get my extra volley and lose everything that has not escaped in the Nydus up to that point. Every opponent is gladly taking that deal. If I pick up, I'm out of there with everything but maybe 1-3OLs lost (assuming I'm not as good as someone like TLO, who makes it out with more usually; also depending on the attack), if I'm lucky those were empty.
Of course sentries should not always get there easily, but the more units you drop, the longer it will take you to load them back up into the nydus, which gives sentries a lot of time to catch up and trap everything that hasn't made it into the nydus yet.
Of course I keep my Network and my drops... Yet I fail to see what the Network can do, what I can't do with my drops already.And I'm absolutly not worried about having my army split, when I'm dropping my opponent and retreating with OLs because his army drove me away. And you know why? Because most of his army is in his main.
Also I fail to see any situation in which you want to do this kind of thing. When you drop 8-16 supply of units? Try to pick them up and leave, but don't put down a nydus that they can't reach anyway! When you drop 20-50 supply of units in an early midgame drop attack? Show me that build that has potential to do damage and spare gas for the nydus at that time. In a huge doom drop? You don't retreat with that kind of thing. That attack is meant to force an army engagement, just not in the position where the opponent is. In the lategame? (Double) Nydus with Ultras is better, you absolutly don't need to drop in and retreat with a Nydus. You go in with (double) Nydus and go out with (double) Nydus.
I'm somewhat wondering if you have even tried what you are talking about. Terrans don't bring spare medivacs for their drops, Protoss don't rush motherships to retreat with attacks and zergs don't build nyduses to get out of a base in which they came in with OLs. Go and watch good zerg players dropping. You will see that there is absolutly no need for extra investments for retreats. When they want to get out, they pick up and go out. It's as easy as it sounds.
For what it's worth I support Nydus use a lot, but still agree with you on this. Using Nydus to retreat a drop makes no sense most of the time.
However, using Nydus to REINFORCE a drop does. With a doom drop there's potentially a big risk in your opponent sniping the OLs before they drop or attacking in the travel time of the OLs. With a smaller drop + nydus you can drop and secure passage for your units (I'd recommend the lings in the ols to make the nydus unload quickly). Yet at the same time your initial risk is much lower. If the OLs get sniped or the army there is too big/too prepared you've only committed a small bit of your army + 100/100 for the worm and can just pack it up and leave. The only retreating advantage of this is you can retreat to defend your base in a base trade situation must faster than hopping back in the OLs.
So essentially the idea would be that you are prepared to doom drop, but you start it with an initial harass. If you drop and the worm finishes before he gets back you have a doom drop effectively. If the worm is killed it was a casualty, but your harass still worked maybe. If you drop and immediately see the worm isn't going to work you don't build it and the harass failed and you probably turn around immediately. You say you would never do this or that his army would get back in time, but no. You do this when you're pushing for an attack and want to also harass. If he lets the worm finish your attacking army can pull back and hit the main faster than he can reposition.
Also a nydus to retreat when you have some room to move back does make sense sometimes. Usually when you can gain a temporary speed advantage, but not one enough to cross the map. So if he has stalkers vs hydras, but he's used FFs, or you have some fungals, but his army is faster overall and will catch up eventually.
Or if you are cut off from retreat I suppose. Say you attacked into the 3rd on metal away from his natural and he came up from more of the middle. With quick nydus in the nearby empty main you might be able to save 3-4 roaches to pay for the worm.
Nydus networks are soooo underused. I believe it's going to eventually be extremely game breaking in the late game and perhaps even imbalanced. People are saying nydus networks are worthless? are you kidding me? they're expensive? When you're banking 3k mins 3k gas and your opponent is just turtling you should be utilizing the nydus network. Workers can stop them right? Have you ever used 4 nydus networks at a time? I'd like to see workers stop 4 that are emerging at the same time, your opponent is forced to move his army. I say nydus is 4th base, then nydus his main, and then nydus his front, and then back in the 4th base... You can do 2 nydus in the 4th, and then 2 nydus in his third. Maybe 2 nydus in the 4th, 1 in the main, and then 1 in the third. it's going to take insanely strategic defense to stop that kind of breach. To me, nydus networks will be the answer to late game zerg.
Anyone who is suggesting a nydus worm buff is either crazy, or have never even tried to utilize nydus worms at all. summoning 4th nydus allows for units to be streamed 4 at a time. That to me is pretty fast and for anyone saying that the unload should be faster would be breaking the game
On March 03 2012 07:32 Avril_Lavigne wrote: Nydus networks are soooo underused. I believe it's going to eventually be extremely game breaking in the late game and perhaps even imbalanced. People are saying nydus networks are worthless? are you kidding me? they're expensive? When you're banking 3k mins 3k gas and your opponent is just turtling you should be utilizing the nydus network. Workers can stop them right? Have you ever used 4 nydus networks at a time? I'd like to see workers stop 4 that are emerging at the same time, your opponent is forced to move his army. I say nydus is 4th base, then nydus his main, and then nydus his front, and then back in the 4th base... You can do 2 nydus in the 4th, and then 2 nydus in his third. Maybe 2 nydus in the 4th, 1 in the main, and then 1 in the third. it's going to take insanely strategic defense to stop that kind of breach. To me, nydus networks will be the answer to late game zerg.
Anyone who is suggesting a nydus worm buff is either crazy, or have never even tried to utilize nydus worms at all. summoning 4th nydus allows for units to be streamed 4 at a time. That to me is pretty fast and for anyone saying that the unload should be faster would be breaking the game
advocating spending 1.2k gas to get units into your opponent's base, seriously? I mean it might be a good idea in a 4v4..
On March 03 2012 07:32 Avril_Lavigne wrote: Nydus networks are soooo underused. I believe it's going to eventually be extremely game breaking in the late game and perhaps even imbalanced. People are saying nydus networks are worthless? are you kidding me? they're expensive? When you're banking 3k mins 3k gas and your opponent is just turtling you should be utilizing the nydus network. Workers can stop them right? Have you ever used 4 nydus networks at a time? I'd like to see workers stop 4 that are emerging at the same time, your opponent is forced to move his army. I say nydus is 4th base, then nydus his main, and then nydus his front, and then back in the 4th base... You can do 2 nydus in the 4th, and then 2 nydus in his third. Maybe 2 nydus in the 4th, 1 in the main, and then 1 in the third. it's going to take insanely strategic defense to stop that kind of breach. To me, nydus networks will be the answer to late game zerg.
Anyone who is suggesting a nydus worm buff is either crazy, or have never even tried to utilize nydus worms at all. summoning 4th nydus allows for units to be streamed 4 at a time. That to me is pretty fast and for anyone saying that the unload should be faster would be breaking the game
advocating spending 1.2k gas to get units into your opponent's base, seriously? I mean it might be a good idea in a 4v4..
if you're doing ultra ling and banking 3k gas then It's defiintely viable. Both players are maxed and your opponent is trying to take more bases. 1.2k gas is worth the price if you can shut down an expansion and then harrass the main or even other expos. You basically force your opponent to defend or force him to push out when he's uncomfortable to do so
and it's not 1.2k at a time. you only spend the intial 800 gas on the nydus networks, and every spawn is 100 gas each. To me it's worth it, only in the late game.
On March 03 2012 07:32 Avril_Lavigne wrote: Nydus networks are soooo underused. I believe it's going to eventually be extremely game breaking in the late game and perhaps even imbalanced. People are saying nydus networks are worthless? are you kidding me? they're expensive? When you're banking 3k mins 3k gas and your opponent is just turtling you should be utilizing the nydus network. Workers can stop them right? Have you ever used 4 nydus networks at a time? I'd like to see workers stop 4 that are emerging at the same time, your opponent is forced to move his army. I say nydus is 4th base, then nydus his main, and then nydus his front, and then back in the 4th base... You can do 2 nydus in the 4th, and then 2 nydus in his third. Maybe 2 nydus in the 4th, 1 in the main, and then 1 in the third. it's going to take insanely strategic defense to stop that kind of breach. To me, nydus networks will be the answer to late game zerg.
Anyone who is suggesting a nydus worm buff is either crazy, or have never even tried to utilize nydus worms at all. summoning 4th nydus allows for units to be streamed 4 at a time. That to me is pretty fast and for anyone saying that the unload should be faster would be breaking the game
advocating spending 1.2k gas to get units into your opponent's base, seriously? I mean it might be a good idea in a 4v4..
if you're doing ultra ling and banking 3k gas then It's defiintely viable. Both players are maxed and your opponent is trying to take more bases. 1.2k gas is worth the price if you can shut down an expansion and then harrass the main or even other expos. You basically force your opponent to defend or force him to push out when he's uncomfortable to do so
and it's not 1.2k at a time. you only spend the intial 800 gas on the nydus networks, and every spawn is 100 gas each. To me it's worth it, only in the late game.
I agree with the OP and the 2nd post that they should and will be used more in the future. Most zerg players now think of them only as something to sneak into an enemy base. When they start building one outside the enemy's base to re-inforce quickly and 2-3 all over the map to defend expansions, Zerg will be nearly unbeatable.
Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass.
On March 03 2012 07:32 Avril_Lavigne wrote: Nydus networks are soooo underused. I believe it's going to eventually be extremely game breaking in the late game and perhaps even imbalanced. People are saying nydus networks are worthless? are you kidding me? they're expensive? When you're banking 3k mins 3k gas and your opponent is just turtling you should be utilizing the nydus network. Workers can stop them right? Have you ever used 4 nydus networks at a time? I'd like to see workers stop 4 that are emerging at the same time, your opponent is forced to move his army. I say nydus is 4th base, then nydus his main, and then nydus his front, and then back in the 4th base... You can do 2 nydus in the 4th, and then 2 nydus in his third. Maybe 2 nydus in the 4th, 1 in the main, and then 1 in the third. it's going to take insanely strategic defense to stop that kind of breach. To me, nydus networks will be the answer to late game zerg.
Anyone who is suggesting a nydus worm buff is either crazy, or have never even tried to utilize nydus worms at all. summoning 4th nydus allows for units to be streamed 4 at a time. That to me is pretty fast and for anyone saying that the unload should be faster would be breaking the game
advocating spending 1.2k gas to get units into your opponent's base, seriously? I mean it might be a good idea in a 4v4..
if you're doing ultra ling and banking 3k gas then It's defiintely viable. Both players are maxed and your opponent is trying to take more bases. 1.2k gas is worth the price if you can shut down an expansion and then harrass the main or even other expos. You basically force your opponent to defend or force him to push out when he's uncomfortable to do so
and it's not 1.2k at a time. you only spend the intial 800 gas on the nydus networks, and every spawn is 100 gas each. To me it's worth it, only in the late game.
Why not save the gas and do drops instead?
drops doesn't allow you to instantly transfer a 200/200 army from one base to the next and back and forth
On March 03 2012 07:32 Avril_Lavigne wrote: Nydus networks are soooo underused. I believe it's going to eventually be extremely game breaking in the late game and perhaps even imbalanced. People are saying nydus networks are worthless? are you kidding me? they're expensive? When you're banking 3k mins 3k gas and your opponent is just turtling you should be utilizing the nydus network. Workers can stop them right? Have you ever used 4 nydus networks at a time? I'd like to see workers stop 4 that are emerging at the same time, your opponent is forced to move his army. I say nydus is 4th base, then nydus his main, and then nydus his front, and then back in the 4th base... You can do 2 nydus in the 4th, and then 2 nydus in his third. Maybe 2 nydus in the 4th, 1 in the main, and then 1 in the third. it's going to take insanely strategic defense to stop that kind of breach. To me, nydus networks will be the answer to late game zerg.
Anyone who is suggesting a nydus worm buff is either crazy, or have never even tried to utilize nydus worms at all. summoning 4th nydus allows for units to be streamed 4 at a time. That to me is pretty fast and for anyone saying that the unload should be faster would be breaking the game
advocating spending 1.2k gas to get units into your opponent's base, seriously? I mean it might be a good idea in a 4v4..
if you're doing ultra ling and banking 3k gas then It's defiintely viable. Both players are maxed and your opponent is trying to take more bases. 1.2k gas is worth the price if you can shut down an expansion and then harrass the main or even other expos. You basically force your opponent to defend or force him to push out when he's uncomfortable to do so
and it's not 1.2k at a time. you only spend the intial 800 gas on the nydus networks, and every spawn is 100 gas each. To me it's worth it, only in the late game.
Why not save the gas and do drops instead?
drops doesn't allow you to instantly transfer a 200/200 army from one base to the next and back and forth
Neither does nydus... nydus unloads slower than hell.
Useless because it doesn't matter where your army is, it matters what it is and how big, and using nydus only hurts that. Positional play is useless in SC2 for the most part.
On March 03 2012 07:32 Avril_Lavigne wrote: Nydus networks are soooo underused. I believe it's going to eventually be extremely game breaking in the late game and perhaps even imbalanced. People are saying nydus networks are worthless? are you kidding me? they're expensive? When you're banking 3k mins 3k gas and your opponent is just turtling you should be utilizing the nydus network. Workers can stop them right? Have you ever used 4 nydus networks at a time? I'd like to see workers stop 4 that are emerging at the same time, your opponent is forced to move his army. I say nydus is 4th base, then nydus his main, and then nydus his front, and then back in the 4th base... You can do 2 nydus in the 4th, and then 2 nydus in his third. Maybe 2 nydus in the 4th, 1 in the main, and then 1 in the third. it's going to take insanely strategic defense to stop that kind of breach. To me, nydus networks will be the answer to late game zerg.
Anyone who is suggesting a nydus worm buff is either crazy, or have never even tried to utilize nydus worms at all. summoning 4th nydus allows for units to be streamed 4 at a time. That to me is pretty fast and for anyone saying that the unload should be faster would be breaking the game
advocating spending 1.2k gas to get units into your opponent's base, seriously? I mean it might be a good idea in a 4v4..
if you're doing ultra ling and banking 3k gas then It's defiintely viable. Both players are maxed and your opponent is trying to take more bases. 1.2k gas is worth the price if you can shut down an expansion and then harrass the main or even other expos. You basically force your opponent to defend or force him to push out when he's uncomfortable to do so
and it's not 1.2k at a time. you only spend the intial 800 gas on the nydus networks, and every spawn is 100 gas each. To me it's worth it, only in the late game.
Why not save the gas and do drops instead?
drops doesn't allow you to instantly transfer a 200/200 army from one base to the next and back and forth
Neither does nydus... nydus unloads slower than hell.
did you read my post? If you're unloading 4 at a time it unloads hella fast. if you're unloading at 4 different places that's even better.... if you feel as though you summoned a bad nydus you can always stop the unload and retreat and nydus elsewhere. What's a big advantage is that your opponent has to send a large portion of his forces to stop the nydus breach and it's hard to cover 4 bases at a time
On March 03 2012 11:48 EternaLLegacy wrote: Useless because it doesn't matter where your army is, it matters what it is and how big, and using nydus only hurts that. Positional play is useless in SC2 for the most part.
are you serious? exploiting position in SC2 is a huge deal. That's how I win most of my tvts, and tvps. position is important in tvz too. if you're out of position then you're pretty fucked and committed to losing that army. if your opponent gets a strong position on you and you're zerg you're in just as big of trouble too.
I find that getting overlord drop + overlord speed(200/200 + 100/100) are more useful mid game than getting a nydus network and canal (150/200 +100/100). Mainly because at higher levels players are normally going to scout the nydus worm in time to stop it, while even if they scout the drop coming they can't completely shut it down it by killing 1 very weak structure.
As a side note, I feel that blizzard should allow zerglings to unload 2 at a time from the nydus canal. Otherwise it takes about 60 sec to unload a decent sized zergling army.
On March 03 2012 07:32 Avril_Lavigne wrote: Nydus networks are soooo underused. I believe it's going to eventually be extremely game breaking in the late game and perhaps even imbalanced. People are saying nydus networks are worthless? are you kidding me? they're expensive? When you're banking 3k mins 3k gas and your opponent is just turtling you should be utilizing the nydus network. Workers can stop them right? Have you ever used 4 nydus networks at a time? I'd like to see workers stop 4 that are emerging at the same time, your opponent is forced to move his army. I say nydus is 4th base, then nydus his main, and then nydus his front, and then back in the 4th base... You can do 2 nydus in the 4th, and then 2 nydus in his third. Maybe 2 nydus in the 4th, 1 in the main, and then 1 in the third. it's going to take insanely strategic defense to stop that kind of breach. To me, nydus networks will be the answer to late game zerg.
Anyone who is suggesting a nydus worm buff is either crazy, or have never even tried to utilize nydus worms at all. summoning 4th nydus allows for units to be streamed 4 at a time. That to me is pretty fast and for anyone saying that the unload should be faster would be breaking the game
advocating spending 1.2k gas to get units into your opponent's base, seriously? I mean it might be a good idea in a 4v4..
if you're doing ultra ling and banking 3k gas then It's defiintely viable. Both players are maxed and your opponent is trying to take more bases. 1.2k gas is worth the price if you can shut down an expansion and then harrass the main or even other expos. You basically force your opponent to defend or force him to push out when he's uncomfortable to do so
and it's not 1.2k at a time. you only spend the intial 800 gas on the nydus networks, and every spawn is 100 gas each. To me it's worth it, only in the late game.
If you're only building one exit at a time for 100/100, what's the point of spending 600/800 to buy 4 Nydus networks? If you want to use what you spent that money for, you will be building 400/400 worth of exits at a time... That's an insane amount of money just to transport units, especially considering once your opponent is wise to it, you'll be losing a lot of them while they build, and you can't cancel..
On March 03 2012 10:50 Perdac Curall wrote: I agree with the OP and the 2nd post that they should and will be used more in the future. Most zerg players now think of them only as something to sneak into an enemy base. When they start building one outside the enemy's base to re-inforce quickly and 2-3 all over the map to defend expansions, Zerg will be nearly unbeatable.
Watch Leenock vs Seed game 2 to see what happens when Zerg tries to build a Nydus outside the enemy base to re-inforce...
On March 03 2012 11:48 EternaLLegacy wrote: Useless because it doesn't matter where your army is, it matters what it is and how big, and using nydus only hurts that. Positional play is useless in SC2 for the most part.
are you serious? exploiting position in SC2 is a huge deal. That's how I win most of my tvts, and tvps. position is important in tvz too. if you're out of position then you're pretty fucked and committed to losing that army. if your opponent gets a strong position on you and you're zerg you're in just as big of trouble too.
Yes, but having a smaller army sets you up to lose no matter what. Position comes second after army size and composition.
On March 03 2012 10:50 Perdac Curall wrote: I agree with the OP and the 2nd post that they should and will be used more in the future. Most zerg players now think of them only as something to sneak into an enemy base. When they start building one outside the enemy's base to re-inforce quickly and 2-3 all over the map to defend expansions, Zerg will be nearly unbeatable.
Watch Leenock vs Seed game 2 to see what happens when Zerg tries to build a Nydus outside the enemy base to re-inforce...
bad example, it was a 2 base hydra nydus push against a voidray expand even with phoenix for perfect scouting (can't be saver on crossfire). Trying a nydus against this build is a straight self kill. Especially if you don't even have the ground control with lings. And the nydus would have probably even worked if he had gotten control over the xel naga tower. Huge vision, which the toss had and there was almost no space, where the nydus could have went down. Might have even worked further north if he had spread up his lings and then remake it right in the front (you do it anyway to get the queens there). But its just a bad idea against stargate. I guess leenock was aware of this trying to hide the nydus at all cost, that it was a bad map for it and the opening of the opponent was perfect against it.
When zergs get beaten up more when they try to force their way through an army, they will start to rely on those mechanics more. But i guess we will probably see 220 supply zerg more often, before we see more nydus play and also overlords clouds to absorb fire.
On March 03 2012 11:48 EternaLLegacy wrote: Useless because it doesn't matter where your army is, it matters what it is and how big, and using nydus only hurts that. Positional play is useless in SC2 for the most part.
are you serious? exploiting position in SC2 is a huge deal. That's how I win most of my tvts, and tvps. position is important in tvz too. if you're out of position then you're pretty fucked and committed to losing that army. if your opponent gets a strong position on you and you're zerg you're in just as big of trouble too.
Yes, but having a smaller army sets you up to lose no matter what. Position comes second after army size and composition.
I thought I remember saying in the late game of zerg 200/200 army with money spare such as 3k mins 3k gas did you not read that part?
But its just a bad idea against stargate. I guess leenock was aware of this trying to hide the nydus at all cost, that it was a bad map for it and the opening of the opponent was perfect against it.
In fact Nydus/hydra or hydra drops are among the BEST answers to Stargate openings...
Because nydus worm suck. Zerg units are generally super fast, and do not need nydus to get around the map, and infestors can you just load up in overlords.
The only reason nydus would be good is to get into one of the bases, or hide drones, which you again, can do with overlords. The main problem with the nydus, is actually that it HAS SUPER LOW HP. EVEN if it is 50% finished,you only need 8 workers to kill it before it is complete! i mean, WTF
But its just a bad idea against stargate. I guess leenock was aware of this trying to hide the nydus at all cost, that it was a bad map for it and the opening of the opponent was perfect against it.
In fact Nydus/hydra or hydra drops are among the BEST answers to Stargate openings...
among the best offensive answers. They still suck compared to a 3base defensive opening with antiair.
is there any dropship in the game in which units come out more than 1 at a time from? the only one I can think of is the bunker/CC and those are buildings...
So I don't understand why I see so many people commenting that because the units come out 1 at a time all of a sudden it's useless.
Are dropships useless? Shuttles? Medivacs? Warp Prisms? Overlords?
On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote: Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass.
Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership.
If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you.
Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game.
On March 03 2012 17:11 -orb- wrote: I don't get it
is there any dropship in the game in which units come out more than 1 at a time from? the only one I can think of is the bunker/CC and those are buildings...
So I don't understand why I see so many people commenting that because the units come out 1 at a time all of a sudden it's useless.
Are dropships useless? Shuttles? Medivacs? Warp Prisms? Overlords?
What a pathetic excuse
is there any dropship that can be stopped in its tracks by workers? or by a 1 zealot warp-in? why are you comparing it?
Zerg sure know how to whine. They all say that this thing is definitly not good, but you see very little experimenting with them. There seems to be a lot of untapped potential there, but every zerg wants to act like idra and just complain instead of trying to solve a problem.
Why you dont use more carriers and battlecruisers? There seems to be a lot of untapped potential there, but every toss/terra just complain instead of trying to solve a problem. They are so great and powerful units. Obviously redundancy, slow build time and high cost are no excuse.
On March 03 2012 17:11 -orb- wrote: I don't get it
is there any dropship in the game in which units come out more than 1 at a time from? the only one I can think of is the bunker/CC and those are buildings...
So I don't understand why I see so many people commenting that because the units come out 1 at a time all of a sudden it's useless.
Are dropships useless? Shuttles? Medivacs? Warp Prisms? Overlords?
What a pathetic excuse
is there any dropship that can be stopped in its tracks by workers? or by a 1 zealot warp-in? why are you comparing it?
Hey I got an idea, let's take a fragile building and warp it in right in our opponent's vision and hope they're garbage!
This stubborn logic is not the only way to play starcraft.
On March 03 2012 17:21 HarryHood wrote: Zerg sure know how to whine. They all say that this thing is definitly not good, but you see very little experimenting with them. There seems to be a lot of untapped potential there, but every zerg wants to act like idra and just complain instead of trying to solve a problem.
On March 03 2012 17:25 Charon1979 wrote: Why you dont use more carriers and battlecruisers? There seems to be a lot of untapped potential there, but every toss/terra just complain instead of trying to solve a problem. They are so great and powerful units. Obviously redundancy, slow build time and high cost are no excuse.
oh hey what do you know, in professional matches both have been used to great effect
OH HEY WHAT DO YOU KNOW SAME CAN BE SAID FOR NYDUS
On March 03 2012 17:11 -orb- wrote: I don't get it
is there any dropship in the game in which units come out more than 1 at a time from? the only one I can think of is the bunker/CC and those are buildings...
So I don't understand why I see so many people commenting that because the units come out 1 at a time all of a sudden it's useless.
Are dropships useless? Shuttles? Medivacs? Warp Prisms? Overlords?
What a pathetic excuse
is there any dropship that can be stopped in its tracks by workers? or by a 1 zealot warp-in? why are you comparing it?
Hey I got an idea, let's take a fragile building and warp it in right in our opponent's vision and hope they're garbage!
This stubborn logic is not the only way to play starcraft.
that's the point people are making, the only use of the nydus is if your opponent is incompetent
it's completely redundant in this 'transport your army across maps' thing because it's faster and more efficient to just move your fucking army there with good creep spread, and it's less vulnerable.
Not gonna read all the posts so it may have already been said. IMO they have to little health, take to long to pop out, and don't push out units fast enough. I play terran and Iv'e never had anyone have great success against me with an offensive Nydus.
any decent pro scouting nullifies them, i can't remember the match but saw overlords getting in perfect range to spawn it on edges, it got spawned and killed like 5 times, pro's hear it and look. when pro's look they look in the right spots and find it usually. that and the previous points made imo.
On March 03 2012 17:21 HarryHood wrote: Zerg sure know how to whine. They all say that this thing is definitly not good, but you see very little experimenting with them. There seems to be a lot of untapped potential there, but every zerg wants to act like idra and just complain instead of trying to solve a problem.
yeah, that's absolutly a "zerg problem". That's why we read all over the forums from Terrans in the last weeks: "ghost nerf? awesome! Gonna try some battlecruisers now and get really creative. I'm absolutly gonna change my style from making exactly 3units - marine/medivac/tank - to something supercreative now!" lol
Also I don't know what you are talking about. People use the Nydus, just not superoften. You know, not everything is as versatile and strong as a marine or a stalker, that you will see it all the time.
The nydus can also be used to retreat units. Example: Attack with what would look like a hydra all in on toss third, this happens. You kill the Nexus, but then his colossus pops, pop nydus head meanwhile all this happens and free escape pod for all your expensive units. Mutas are being used more vs toss and nydus has a huge potential here, cuz of the vision the muta give and how they distract every protoss player. They are exceptional for baseracing and saving drones that would otherwise die, in doomed expo's u sac. Hydras own anything protossy, but gets roflowned by colossus, using nydus u can totally circumvent the colossi, while amassing a huge corruptor/ling army.
I actually believe ZvZ metagame is gonna revolve around nydussin all over, from both sides.
On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote: Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass.
Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership.
If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you.
Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game.
I agree, unless you put any zerglings in the nydus at all. If you get zerglings in the nydus it slows it down sooooo much it reduces the usefullness dramatically. Imo if you get zerglings in the nydus mid as well just run roaches and zerglings across the map because by the time the zerglings finally pop out i bet you, you can run across the map in the same time. Infestors ultras and hydras on the other hand...soooo good
On March 03 2012 17:54 ejozl wrote: The nydus can also be used to retreat units. Example: Attack with what would look like a hydra all in on toss third, this happens. You kill the Nexus, but then his colossus pops, pop nydus head meanwhile all this happens and free escape pod for all your expensive units. Mutas are being used more vs toss and nydus has a huge potential here, cuz of the vision the muta give and how they distract every protoss player. They are exceptional for baseracing and saving drones that would otherwise die, in doomed expo's u sac. Hydras own anything protossy, but gets roflowned by colossus, using nydus u can totally circumvent the colossi, while amassing a huge corruptor/ling army.
I actually believe ZvZ metagame is gonna revolve around nydussin all over, from both sides.
thats what i thought until i had a 200/200 army(about 75% of the supply of army actually attacking) sniping a 3rd on shakuras(he expod up the ramp for some reason) snipe the nexus and run up the ramp to a awating nydus his army is on my tail and while my army runs in circles waiting to run away his army gets in range and instantly kills my nydus and thus i just sacrificed my entire army...
On March 03 2012 17:54 ejozl wrote: The nydus can also be used to retreat units. Example: Attack with what would look like a hydra all in on toss third, this happens. You kill the Nexus, but then his colossus pops, pop nydus head meanwhile all this happens and free escape pod for all your expensive units. Mutas are being used more vs toss and nydus has a huge potential here, cuz of the vision the muta give and how they distract every protoss player. They are exceptional for baseracing and saving drones that would otherwise die, in doomed expo's u sac. Hydras own anything protossy, but gets roflowned by colossus, using nydus u can totally circumvent the colossi, while amassing a huge corruptor/ling army.
I actually believe ZvZ metagame is gonna revolve around nydussin all over, from both sides.
thats what i thought until i had a 200/200 army(about 75% of the supply of army actually attacking) sniping a 3rd on shakuras(he expod up the ramp for some reason) snipe the nexus and run up the ramp to a awating nydus his army is on my tail and while my army runs in circles waiting to run away his army gets in range and instantly kills my nydus and thus i just sacrificed my entire army...
Yeah, I argued the same in this thread, but people don't believe it until they experience it themselves. I guess with a maxed army, you should be in a position to do a double nydus retreat, yet even that does not make the attack costefficient, unless you are using pure ultras which can retreat really fast into the nydus. The moment you get roaches, hydras, lings or blings in there, it is just a huge risk.
I can give you a list of reasons to help you understand why nydus isn't used, unless it's pretty hardcore cheese -It costs alot if we count it's life. 1-2 lings can kill it, putting him a ltitle far ahead if you were equal -Workers can kill it, just like lings. -Only one unit at a time is allowed to get out -Makes the noise and then it shows the alert.
TBH, as baller as Nydus worms are, offensive Nydus worms rely solely on your opponent's lack of map awareness. I'd like to see more Nydus-Hydra play, where hydras and roaches can be transported almost instantly between bases and to the front of the opponent's base via Nydus. If you can secure the middle of the map with a roach force, you can nydus outside the front and attack without fear of a counterattack if you are using your Nydus effectively.
The only pitfall is that it requires a very inefficient "4-base Zerg piss away money from your massive income" playstyle that Zergs just don't seem to appreciate as much anymore, especially with more and more Zergs opting to make infestors and shoot for cost efficiency, instead of expanding as aggressively as a Muta-Ling or Roach-Hydra Zerg would.
1. A handful of probes kill it under the decade it takes to go up 2. Ppl in other games and even regions can hear a nydus pop up 3. Once zerg takes out his army and loses nydus = autogg 4. Costs are astronomically high..it's almost the equivalent of 50 groups of ultras riding broods while spitting corruptors for fun........and a zergling 5. It's probably the ultimate backfire tactic of the game.....and anyone reduced to that tactic in my eyes is a very sad person. A double faced coinflip. Even if someone won..it was by MAJOR flaws from his opponent.... that doesn't exclude how much flipping he did with that coin before making that nydus.
On March 01 2012 14:35 Spieltor wrote: There's one good use for it in mid game. plant it in your enemy's third. now you have a place to reinforce from quickly like a proxy pylon which is great for slow ass hydras, and they have to kill a worm + wait for creep to go away to expand.
And to think, you only spent 250/300 to do it! Alternatively, you could spend 100/100 on burrow (an upgrade you will be getting anyway) and burrow a fucking ling. Or hell, since we are on lair tech just have an OL drop creep. Overlords, unlike nydus worms, can't be killed by probes in 10 seconds.
On topic, the reason why I don't like relying on Nyduses is because of the unload speed. You unload lings one at a time and if you use unload all you can't cancel the attack (worm will keep spitting till it dies, hallelujah!). If it, say, unloaded lings 2x faster and there was a way to cancel the unload when the deathball comes marching home it would def be a good harassment option. I don't even want it to be a crazy all in back door thing... I just want to be able to spit 12 lings out of it in less time than it takes a protoss army to run 2 laps around the map. I'm not going to pretend I know anything about what is healthy for this game though, just what I personally would love to see xD
Its expensive and high risk, which is why more players don't do it. I think we're past the days of sneaking one in your opponents base and winning the game, although if the opportunity is there a player should obviously take it and do huge damage.
I think using it similarly to a proxy pylon is the most viable option. In fact its quite a bit better than a proxy pylon but also more expensive so can't be used quite as offensivly.
Personally I'd like to see the noise removed, you don't get a noise alert when a proxy 2 rax finishes or when units start warping in on a proxy pylon, why does the nydus have a noise, its not like you should even ever let one get up in your base if you sim city properly.
one can see them and they require too much apm to be used. Only use for the nydus would be spread creep on the other side of the map now. The nydus drill isnt practical because we need the gas to make them broods or banelings.
It is only in the endgame that a Zerg has gas to spare, and at this point he is very likely to have broodlords in his army. Using a nydus to travel long distances means leaving the broodlords in the back. Using a nydus for retreat means leaving the broodlords defenseless. Most zergs will happily give away their ground army just to protect their power units.
Imagine a drop ship that charged you 100/100 and gave an alert to the fucking enemy every time it was given a destination.
That's what a Nydus Worm is.
That's why no one uses them. Otherwise they'd be excellent for moving troops around and might singlehandedly make hydras viable. The annoucement sound effect is the only real deal breaker.
But since they SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH, well, they're totally fucking useless at higher levels. Even for moving your own troops around, yielding so much information to the enemy is just too big a sacrifice. I mean, imagine if you could take island/blocked expos secretly with them? But if you play on Shattered, and your opponent hears the screech and sees his base is clear, first thing he will do is check the island expos.
On March 03 2012 21:53 DaemonX wrote: Imagine a drop ship that charged you 100/100 and gave an alert to the fucking enemy every time it was given a destination.
That's what a Nydus Worm is.
That's why no one uses them. Otherwise they'd be excellent for moving troops around and might singlehandedly make hydras viable. The annoucement sound effect is the only real deal breaker.
But since they SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH, well, they're totally fucking useless at higher levels. Even for moving your own troops around, yielding so much information to the enemy is just too big a sacrifice. I mean, imagine if you could take island/blocked expos secretly with them? But if you play on Shattered, and your opponent hears the screech and sees his base is clear, first thing he will do is check the island expos.
Imagine a drop ship that has the cost of 100/100 but is able to transfer an entire 200/200 army to the base of your opponent. It doesn't even have to be his main base. It could be his 5th base, or his 4th base. In success to deny that expansion is WORTH THE MINERALS AND GAS. Mass Nydus is soooooooooo effective against terran in this scenario.
Okay, Imagine a scenario where both the maps are split in half. and the zerg has no choice but to sit on his ass because the center is defended by planetaries, ghosts, siege tanks, vikings you name it. Terran wants to take a 5th base because he wants to prolong the game, have a superior economy, and have upgrades. are you going to wait 10 minutes in for terran to finally push out when he's 100% comfortable and ready to seal his victory? If you want to be active, you force terran to engage you by making him move his army around. you do drops in the main. You nydus his 4th, you nydus his 5th. you hit the center, when he's defending his expansions. you retreat the center when he tries to defend that position, then you nydus his main again and attack him there, and then you nydus his 4th, hell you can nydus both bases and he's got to choose which base to defend. are you saying that you can't exploit any weakness to execute a nydus? You summon one nydus in his 5th base because his army is near his main. he spots it right away and sends scvs to stop it. okay, now summon 4 at the same time. now he's forced to send a good ammount of his forces to that base because scvs alone will not be able to stop all 4 of them at the same time. while he's sending his forces to his expansion because it's in deep threat, you then summon 4 nyduses in his main.. it's called forcing your opponent to stay active, it's called harrassment. This is hard to stop, trust me i've done it before. it's gas heavy but hell i spend everything else on 3-3 cracklings anyway. it's worth it.
You can't instantly transfer a 200/200 army from one side of the map to the other with overlords. pleaase.....
It's not part of the natural tech upwards. Terrans get medivacs in almost all their games, as soon as the protoss has a Robotics Facility the warp prism is just 200 minerals away.As for the Nydus network, the ONLY thing that money can do for you is nydus worms, there is no other use for the tech, meaning its a big commitment, your strategy must rely on these worms and be built around them. You cant just sprinkle in a worm or two the same way a terran or protoss sneaks in a drop when opportunity arises.
Also they're denied by fcking workers, imagine if you had to cancel a warp-in of zealots from the prism because someone pulled 10 drones and killed them, close to useless.
Some of these terrans need to show us how great Nydus is. For the most part I find it really counter intuitive to use and the zerg army is mainly melee. Trying to funnel a zerg army into a terran base already cramped with buildings and then fighting the terran deathball is an absolute waste of ressources.
Okay, Imagine a scenario where both the maps are split in half. and the zerg has no choice but to sit on his ass because the center is defended by planetaries, ghosts, siege tanks, vikings you name it. Terran wants to take a 5th base because he wants to prolong the game, have a superior economy, and have upgrades. are you going to wait 10 minutes in for terran to finally push out when he's 100% comfortable and ready to seal his victory?
And thats the EXACT reason we go Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor and simply try to kill him. Using nydus to prevent his 5th means you have some kind of Roach/Ling/Hydra/whatever. You dont want Roaches in this scenario. You dont want Hydras either. You possibly have spare Lings to runby/drop or drop Infestors. But you dont want to use a nydus because 2/3 of your army (Broodlord/Corruptor) can't even use it! If you are still on Ling/Bling/Infestor/Ultra at this point of time, you simply fucked up and you will lose as you cant take him head on and he will simply go for the base trade as your gazillion Lings just vaporize.
On March 03 2012 21:53 DaemonX wrote: Imagine a drop ship that charged you 100/100 and gave an alert to the fucking enemy every time it was given a destination.
That's what a Nydus Worm is.
That's why no one uses them. Otherwise they'd be excellent for moving troops around and might singlehandedly make hydras viable. The annoucement sound effect is the only real deal breaker.
But since they SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH, well, they're totally fucking useless at higher levels. Even for moving your own troops around, yielding so much information to the enemy is just too big a sacrifice. I mean, imagine if you could take island/blocked expos secretly with them? But if you play on Shattered, and your opponent hears the screech and sees his base is clear, first thing he will do is check the island expos.
Imagine a drop ship that has the cost of 100/100 but is able to transfer an entire 200/200 army to the base of your opponent. It doesn't even have to be his main base. It could be his 5th base, or his 4th base. In success to deny that expansion is WORTH THE MINERALS AND GAS. Mass Nydus is soooooooooo effective against terran in this scenario.
Okay, Imagine a scenario where both the maps are split in half. and the zerg has no choice but to sit on his ass because the center is defended by planetaries, ghosts, siege tanks, vikings you name it. Terran wants to take a 5th base because he wants to prolong the game, have a superior economy, and have upgrades. are you going to wait 10 minutes in for terran to finally push out when he's 100% comfortable and ready to seal his victory? If you want to be active, you force terran to engage you by making him move his army around. you do drops in the main. You nydus his 4th, you nydus his 5th. you hit the center, when he's defending his expansions. you retreat the center when he tries to defend that position, then you nydus his main again and attack him there, and then you nydus his 4th, hell you can nydus both bases and he's got to choose which base to defend. are you saying that you can't exploit any weakness to execute a nydus? You summon one nydus in his 5th base because his army is near his main. he spots it right away and sends scvs to stop it. okay, now summon 4 at the same time. now he's forced to send a good ammount of his forces to that base because scvs alone will not be able to stop all 4 of them at the same time. while he's sending his forces to his expansion because it's in deep threat, you then summon 4 nyduses in his main.. it's called forcing your opponent to stay active, it's called harrassment. This is hard to stop, trust me i've done it before. it's gas heavy but hell i spend everything else on 3-3 cracklings anyway. it's worth it.
You can't instantly transfer a 200/200 army from one side of the map to the other with overlords. pleaase.....
I'm sorry, you're advocating using 4 nyduses at the same time in ZvT? How do you suggest actually summoning the nyduses when any terran above platinum league makes a huge turret ring? OK, let's say some of the nyduses finish. Now you're fighting in his cramped main with production structures, making his units twice as cost effective as yours.
And I don't know what you're talking about that you can't transfer a 200/200 army with overlords... That's the oNLY thing you can transfer a 200/200 army instantly with, because nydus worms load and unload so slowly that you may as well be dropping from one overlord at a time.
Okay, Imagine a scenario where both the maps are split in half. and the zerg has no choice but to sit on his ass because the center is defended by planetaries, ghosts, siege tanks, vikings you name it. Terran wants to take a 5th base because he wants to prolong the game, have a superior economy, and have upgrades. are you going to wait 10 minutes in for terran to finally push out when he's 100% comfortable and ready to seal his victory?
And thats the EXACT reason we go Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor and simply try to kill him. Using nydus to prevent his 5th means you have some kind of Roach/Ling/Hydra/whatever. You dont want Roaches in this scenario. You dont want Hydras either. You possibly have spare Lings to runby/drop or drop Infestors. But you dont want to use a nydus because 2/3 of your army (Broodlord/Corruptor) can't even use it! If you are still on Ling/Bling/Infestor/Ultra at this point of time, you simply fucked up and you will lose as you cant take him head on and he will simply go for the base trade as your gazillion Lings just vaporize.
From what I recall, many zergs have been QQing about broodlords being almost useless vs viking ghost raven. if your strategy revolves around ultraling infestor which to me is very strong for late game Z then you most definitely want to implement mass nydus to your strategy. base race scenarios are totally fine because the point of what i'm trying to make is that you're trying to force terran to push out when he doesn't want to....... and then the moment you see him push out you retreat back to home and crush his army because he in the first place didn't want to push out anyway without1. upgrades. 2. key units 3. tank count 4. whatever it is etc etc etc.
On March 03 2012 21:53 DaemonX wrote: Imagine a drop ship that charged you 100/100 and gave an alert to the fucking enemy every time it was given a destination.
That's what a Nydus Worm is.
That's why no one uses them. Otherwise they'd be excellent for moving troops around and might singlehandedly make hydras viable. The annoucement sound effect is the only real deal breaker.
But since they SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH, well, they're totally fucking useless at higher levels. Even for moving your own troops around, yielding so much information to the enemy is just too big a sacrifice. I mean, imagine if you could take island/blocked expos secretly with them? But if you play on Shattered, and your opponent hears the screech and sees his base is clear, first thing he will do is check the island expos.
Imagine a drop ship that has the cost of 100/100 but is able to transfer an entire 200/200 army to the base of your opponent. It doesn't even have to be his main base. It could be his 5th base, or his 4th base. In success to deny that expansion is WORTH THE MINERALS AND GAS. Mass Nydus is soooooooooo effective against terran in this scenario.
Okay, Imagine a scenario where both the maps are split in half. and the zerg has no choice but to sit on his ass because the center is defended by planetaries, ghosts, siege tanks, vikings you name it. Terran wants to take a 5th base because he wants to prolong the game, have a superior economy, and have upgrades. are you going to wait 10 minutes in for terran to finally push out when he's 100% comfortable and ready to seal his victory? If you want to be active, you force terran to engage you by making him move his army around. you do drops in the main. You nydus his 4th, you nydus his 5th. you hit the center, when he's defending his expansions. you retreat the center when he tries to defend that position, then you nydus his main again and attack him there, and then you nydus his 4th, hell you can nydus both bases and he's got to choose which base to defend. are you saying that you can't exploit any weakness to execute a nydus? You summon one nydus in his 5th base because his army is near his main. he spots it right away and sends scvs to stop it. okay, now summon 4 at the same time. now he's forced to send a good ammount of his forces to that base because scvs alone will not be able to stop all 4 of them at the same time. while he's sending his forces to his expansion because it's in deep threat, you then summon 4 nyduses in his main.. it's called forcing your opponent to stay active, it's called harrassment. This is hard to stop, trust me i've done it before. it's gas heavy but hell i spend everything else on 3-3 cracklings anyway. it's worth it.
You can't instantly transfer a 200/200 army from one side of the map to the other with overlords. pleaase.....
I'm sorry, you're advocating using 4 nyduses at the same time in ZvT? How do you suggest actually summoning the nyduses when any terran above platinum league makes a huge turret ring? OK, let's say some of the nyduses finish. Now you're fighting in his cramped main with production structures, making his units twice as cost effective as yours.
And I don't know what you're talking about that you can't transfer a 200/200 army with overlords... That's the oNLY thing you can transfer a 200/200 army instantly with, because nydus worms load and unload so slowly that you may as well be dropping from one overlord at a time.
You're saying terrans make turret rings at the very edges of their base?? all terrans do this? lol. From what I know as a former GM terran I only place strategic turrets to save on resources defending mineral lines, or key structures. and as for my expansions, I don't turret ring the entire base, only enough to defend my planetary from mutas. Are you gold or something? who does this? Turret rings make sense in tvt and maybe tvp. Have you ever seen a pro korean terran spend more than 10 turrets in each of his bases for muta defense? Now if you've done an overlord doom drop that would make sense in the case that he's scouted your tech or read your strategy, but most cases, only a noobie minority of terrans who play terran vs zerg would make a turret ring for their bases as you have described it.
I think the problem is that it takes significantly more skill to use nydus worm successfully then to counter it. This debate about how nydus are underused has been going on since beta. Does nydus worm still have potential? Sure even after 1.5 years but in its current form it will take pros like Flash or Jaedong to use it properly.
If zerg had marines or if zerglings popped out 3 at a time then it would be more useful. Right now the nydus worm and zerg units simply have no synergy relative to the pairing of nydus worm with other races. It also has a multitude of problems that players would not understand until you've experienced the headaches associated with it yourself.
On March 02 2012 14:29 Xapti wrote: The problems with the nydus network are numerous: • Nydus network is expensive. • Worm is a bit expensive • Worm can die to workers (or even less attacking units) quite easily before it even finishes • Rate of loading and unloading is a bit slow for some units
To fix nydus worm/network, they should: • Decrease cost of nydus network to 150/150 (from 150/200) • Decrease cost of nydus worm to 100/50 or 100/75 (from 100/100) • Increase the armor of nydus worm to 2 (up from 1) • Increase the health of nydus worm to 250 (up from 200) • Adjust the rate of units entering the nydus based off the supply (or transport) size of the unit. It's simply imbalanced
I think changing the following would be perfect (and if not, a good start): • Increase the armor of nydus worm to 2 (up from 1) • Adjust the rate of units entering the nydus based off the supply (or transport) size of the unit.
Okay, Imagine a scenario where both the maps are split in half. and the zerg has no choice but to sit on his ass because the center is defended by planetaries, ghosts, siege tanks, vikings you name it. Terran wants to take a 5th base because he wants to prolong the game, have a superior economy, and have upgrades. are you going to wait 10 minutes in for terran to finally push out when he's 100% comfortable and ready to seal his victory?
And thats the EXACT reason we go Broodlord/Infestor/Corruptor and simply try to kill him. Using nydus to prevent his 5th means you have some kind of Roach/Ling/Hydra/whatever. You dont want Roaches in this scenario. You dont want Hydras either. You possibly have spare Lings to runby/drop or drop Infestors. But you dont want to use a nydus because 2/3 of your army (Broodlord/Corruptor) can't even use it! If you are still on Ling/Bling/Infestor/Ultra at this point of time, you simply fucked up and you will lose as you cant take him head on and he will simply go for the base trade as your gazillion Lings just vaporize.
From what I recall, many zergs have been QQing about broodlords being almost useless vs viking ghost raven. if your strategy revolves around ultraling infestor which to me is very strong for late game Z then you most definitely want to implement mass nydus to your strategy. base race scenarios are totally fine because the point of what i'm trying to make is that you're trying to force terran to push out when he doesn't want to....... and then the moment you see him push out you retreat back to home and crush his army because he in the first place didn't want to push out anyway without1. upgrades. 2. key units 3. tank count 4. whatever it is etc etc etc.
Where do you hear this? Zergs QQed about ghosts so the ghost got nerfed. They're not QQing about it any more. It takes multiple HSMs to kill a single broodlord,. If the zerg is stupid and clumps his units you could kill his whole army with 3-4 missiles, but most zergs will spread out their BLs when they see you going raven. Naturally vikings are good against BL, but terran can't afford to mass them because they are useless vs everything except air, so when your 30 vikings kill his corruptor BL ball you die to the 10-15 ultras and 100 lings that follow. The threat of zerg going infestor BL corrupter is enough to force the terran to push out before it happens, whether he wants to or not, because at that point, terran gets put on the defensive.
Nydus worm would be used a lot more if it was more durable and/or didn't unload units 1 at a time. A zerg tried to nydus me the other day, I scouted the network so i put ~10 marines near the blind spot in my base, and they killed about 20 banelings that tried to run through 1 at a time, it was really funny. Nydus is a gimmick in its current form, and relies on heavy mistakes from the opponent to be useful at all.
In my opinion the nydus should be buffed just a little bit, maybe more health or units come out faster or costs less or can be cancel to refund 75% of the money, any little buff blizzard makes to it will bring attention to it and people will start experimenting. I can think of tons of cool ideas, it's just that in a game it's better to make some more units or tech more instead of using the nydus. The time I used nydus is to reinforce armies like protoss uses pylons, rally to nydus from base and every time I see units being done I just click my worm key and let em out, it's really good if you have a advantage in economy or army size.
For another really interesting use of Nydus go check out the VODs from this weeks IPL FC (HerO/ViOlet) ViOlet uses a Nydus in game 2 (I think) to block HerO's third and stream in hydras to contain. It was a pretty great game and interesting use of Nydus which I haven't seen before. Check it out.
On March 03 2012 21:53 DaemonX wrote: Imagine a drop ship that charged you 100/100 and gave an alert to the fucking enemy every time it was given a destination.
That's what a Nydus Worm is.
That's why no one uses them. Otherwise they'd be excellent for moving troops around and might singlehandedly make hydras viable. The annoucement sound effect is the only real deal breaker.
But since they SCREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEECH, well, they're totally fucking useless at higher levels. Even for moving your own troops around, yielding so much information to the enemy is just too big a sacrifice. I mean, imagine if you could take island/blocked expos secretly with them? But if you play on Shattered, and your opponent hears the screech and sees his base is clear, first thing he will do is check the island expos.
Imagine a drop ship that has the cost of 100/100 but is able to transfer an entire 200/200 army to the base of your opponent. It doesn't even have to be his main base. It could be his 5th base, or his 4th base. In success to deny that expansion is WORTH THE MINERALS AND GAS. Mass Nydus is soooooooooo effective against terran in this scenario.
Okay, Imagine a scenario where both the maps are split in half. and the zerg has no choice but to sit on his ass because the center is defended by planetaries, ghosts, siege tanks, vikings you name it. Terran wants to take a 5th base because he wants to prolong the game, have a superior economy, and have upgrades. are you going to wait 10 minutes in for terran to finally push out when he's 100% comfortable and ready to seal his victory? If you want to be active, you force terran to engage you by making him move his army around. you do drops in the main. You nydus his 4th, you nydus his 5th. you hit the center, when he's defending his expansions. you retreat the center when he tries to defend that position, then you nydus his main again and attack him there, and then you nydus his 4th, hell you can nydus both bases and he's got to choose which base to defend. are you saying that you can't exploit any weakness to execute a nydus? You summon one nydus in his 5th base because his army is near his main. he spots it right away and sends scvs to stop it. okay, now summon 4 at the same time. now he's forced to send a good ammount of his forces to that base because scvs alone will not be able to stop all 4 of them at the same time. while he's sending his forces to his expansion because it's in deep threat, you then summon 4 nyduses in his main.. it's called forcing your opponent to stay active, it's called harrassment. This is hard to stop, trust me i've done it before. it's gas heavy but hell i spend everything else on 3-3 cracklings anyway. it's worth it.
You can't instantly transfer a 200/200 army from one side of the map to the other with overlords. pleaase.....
The hell are you on about? It's really easy to deny nydus worms and they are so inefficient. Even if you somehow manage to nydus all these places, how would you even have a sufficient amount of units to attack straight into him?
the maps just aren't that big and fucking around wasting APM to get units to a place you could of A moved to in 1/3 the time. Zerg are tried for example to use it between bases for defense but just about any drop will kill a base before your units unload.
On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote: Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass.
Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership.
If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you.
Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game.
If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second.
As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP.
Nydus Worm loads at a rate of 0.25 game seconds per unit and unloads at 0.5 game seconds per unit.
Dropships unload at 1 second per unit while it loads with no delay.
Lings definitely do unload too slow. They could make it so lings unload at 0.25 seconds instead of 0.5. (To do that, they could have two load abilities. One has a validator that checks for lings, the other checks for not lings).
I haven't tested it (a unit with two load/unload abilities) "but" there is a section for "unload validator" for cargo (allowing you make it check for what type of units are being unloaded).
IMO I think another thing they could do is give Nydus Worm a secondary function. Maybe it even provide supply/control per head? For it to be viable, it should provide most cost effecient supply than Overlords.
IMO if they gave Nydus Worm a secondary function (like provide supply, maybe even can cast certain spells), it could become more useful. Maybe provide 24 supply per head (that means 100/100 minerals/gold for 24 supply compared to 100 minerals for 8 supply / another way would to grant the Nydus Network structure 48 supply while the heads themselves grant no supply).
(The numbers can change, obviously 48 supply for building the Nydus Network structure may be too strong.)
It may seem silly at first but IMO, if they gave a secondary function like that to the Nydus, then it would see more use.
The reason why I thought of supply instead of something else because it's a bit more simpler. Plus it makes it sort of a structure transport counterpart to the Overload. In both cases, they both would provide supply and can be used to transport units.
Anyway, advantages of building Nydus Network/Worms for supply instead of Overlords:
1. Save larva (one drone can be used to provide 48 supply via Nydus Network as opposed to 6 Overlords).
2. Can be used to provide a network between your bases.
The main downside is that it costs gas (and typically, Zerg needs gas more than minerals), it can't be used for scouting, and the fact that if it's killed, you could be easily supplied block.
Of course besides that crazy idea, here are some other things:
1. Make it so once zerg has Hive, the Nydus Worm is upgraded with increased health and/or unload time (it's possible to make units or structures change or get upgrades if a structure is built). To do this, they could give the Nydus Worm a behavior with a Validator that checks if the hive is built or not. Once built, the validator activates and buffs the unit.
Same can be done with unload/load ability.
2. Likewise, they could make it so the Nydus Worm is cheaper and faster to build if a Hive is present.
3. Of course they could do the old method of just making it an upgrade that you have to purchase.
btw, has anyone else ever been annoyed by Ultralisks in a Nydus having this huge Ultralisk symbol, so you only see 2 ultralisks on the first unit page and you have to click through a lot of pages to find out if you have different units in the Nydus as well... Not as if it matters a lot, but I had a situation in which my Nydus was filled with units and I just wanted to get a defensive Infestor per base, and then you click your defensive Nydus worm and search 4pages of ultralisks for an infestor to click it out, then you go to the next base click on the nydus worm and search for the next infestor...
On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote: Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass.
Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership.
If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you.
Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game.
If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second.
As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP.
The concept you still seem to be missing is that using nyduses to drop into someone's main is not the only (or even the main) purpose they can be used for. Transporting armies between expansions, transporting drones between expansions (including islands, as well as cut-off, far away bases you are sacrificing), setting up instant reinforcements as they rally, and setting up exits to launch multi-pronged attacks (that can fluidly reinforce each other depending on which location needs more units) are all just some of the examples of the many uses of nyduses. I am sure there are other possibilities either not listed or not thought of.
Nydus Worm loads at a rate of 0.25 game seconds per unit and unloads at 0.5 game seconds per unit.
Dropships unload at 1 second per unit while it loads with no delay.
Lings definitely do unload too slow. They could make it so lings unload at 0.25 seconds instead of 0.5. (To do that, they could have two load abilities. One has a validator that checks for lings, the other checks for not lings).
I haven't tested it (a unit with two load/unload abilities) "but" there is a section for "unload validator" for cargo (allowing you make it check for what type of units are being unloaded).
IMO I think another thing they could do is give Nydus Worm a secondary function. Maybe it even provide supply/control per head? For it to be viable, it should provide most cost effecient supply than Overlords.
IMO if they gave Nydus Worm a secondary function (like provide supply, maybe even can cast certain spells), it could become more useful. Maybe provide 24 supply per head (that means 100/100 minerals/gold for 24 supply compared to 100 minerals for 8 supply / another way would to grant the Nydus Network structure 48 supply while the heads themselves grant no supply).
(The numbers can change, obviously 48 supply for building the Nydus Network structure may be too strong.)
It may seem silly at first but IMO, if they gave a secondary function like that to the Nydus, then it would see more use.
The reason why I thought of supply instead of something else because it's a bit more simpler. Plus it makes it sort of a structure transport counterpart to the Overload. In both cases, they both would provide supply and can be used to transport units.
Anyway, advantages of building Nydus Network/Worms for supply instead of Overlords:
1. Save larva (one drone can be used to provide 48 supply via Nydus Network as opposed to 6 Overlords).
2. Can be used to provide a network between your bases.
The main downside is that it costs gas (and typically, Zerg needs gas more than minerals), it can't be used for scouting, and the fact that if it's killed, you could be easily supplied block.
Of course besides that crazy idea, here are some other things:
1. Make it so once zerg has Hive, the Nydus Worm is upgraded with increased health and/or unload time (it's possible to make units or structures change or get upgrades if a structure is built). To do this, they could give the Nydus Worm a behavior with a Validator that checks if the hive is built or not. Once built, the validator activates and buffs the unit.
Same can be done with unload/load ability.
2. Likewise, they could make it so the Nydus Worm is cheaper and faster to build if a Hive is present.
3. Of course they could do the old method of just making it an upgrade that you have to purchase.
Would it not be better if it unload certain amount of food per time instead? So every 0.5 seconds it unloads 6 food, 1 ultra, 3 roaches,12lings or any combination of units that adds up to 6 food (or less of course).
On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote: Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass.
Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership.
If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you.
Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game.
If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second.
As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP.
The concept you still seem to be missing is that using nyduses to drop into someone's main is not the only (or even the main) purpose they can be used for. Transporting armies between expansions, transporting drones between expansions (including islands, as well as cut-off, far away bases you are sacrificing), setting up instant reinforcements as they rally, and setting up exits to launch multi-pronged attacks (that can fluidly reinforce each other depending on which location needs more units) are all just some of the examples of the many uses of nyduses. I am sure there are other possibilities either not listed or not thought of.
Don't forget instant retreat of an overextended army.
There are many times where the zerg is in a position where they're going to lose their whole army. For instance, if Protoss' deathball moves out and zerg swings in with their whole army to kill the third. This army usually dies, but if you place a nydus in a strategic location, you can actually retreat the army and lose a lot less. Obviously they could kill the nydus and leave you stranded, but saving your whole army for 100/100 is a pretty damn good deal.
On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote: Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass.
Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership.
If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you.
Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game.
If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second.
As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP.
The concept you still seem to be missing is that using nyduses to drop into someone's main is not the only (or even the main) purpose they can be used for. Transporting armies between expansions, transporting drones between expansions (including islands, as well as cut-off, far away bases you are sacrificing), setting up instant reinforcements as they rally, and setting up exits to launch multi-pronged attacks (that can fluidly reinforce each other depending on which location needs more units) are all just some of the examples of the many uses of nyduses. I am sure there are other possibilities either not listed or not thought of.
You can transport your entire army between expansions just as quickly via ground instead of via nydus, and thats free. When it comes to full armies, nydus is trash. For reinforcements with larger slow units (ie: the already mentioned hydra nydus play), they are great if you are able to get them set up, sure... but thats not exactly an ideal unit comp or situation.
On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote: Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass.
Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership.
If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you.
Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game.
If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second.
As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP.
The concept you still seem to be missing is that using nyduses to drop into someone's main is not the only (or even the main) purpose they can be used for. Transporting armies between expansions, transporting drones between expansions (including islands, as well as cut-off, far away bases you are sacrificing), setting up instant reinforcements as they rally, and setting up exits to launch multi-pronged attacks (that can fluidly reinforce each other depending on which location needs more units) are all just some of the examples of the many uses of nyduses. I am sure there are other possibilities either not listed or not thought of.
You can transport your entire army between expansions just as quickly via ground instead of via nydus, and thats free. When it comes to full armies, nydus is trash. For reinforcements with larger slow units (ie: the already mentioned hydra nydus play), they are great if you are able to get them set up, sure... but thats not exactly an ideal unit comp or situation.
Okay so let me get your logic straight here. I just want to make sure I understand fully.
You think that you can transport units between expansions JUST as quickly across the map as via nydus? Something that takes time vs something that doesn't take time (respectively)? You make no sense at all.
Maybe if you're on steppes of war and you are transferring between your nat and 3rd this is true. But imagine you are on a map like tal'darim altar (just as an example... it applies on almost all modern maps). Just to paint a picture here, you're in the bottom left and your terran opponent is in the top right. You have taken a lot of the map including the top left and bottom right expansions and the terran is harassing them with multi-pronged drops. Are you honestly trying to tell me right now that to defend the top left and bottom right expansions you would be just as quick to react and just as fast with unit positioning running your army all the way across the diagonal of the map as opposed to going thru a magic tunnel that literally INSTANTLY pops the units out regardless of distance?
On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote: Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass.
Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership.
If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you.
Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game.
If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second.
As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP.
The concept you still seem to be missing is that using nyduses to drop into someone's main is not the only (or even the main) purpose they can be used for. Transporting armies between expansions, transporting drones between expansions (including islands, as well as cut-off, far away bases you are sacrificing), setting up instant reinforcements as they rally, and setting up exits to launch multi-pronged attacks (that can fluidly reinforce each other depending on which location needs more units) are all just some of the examples of the many uses of nyduses. I am sure there are other possibilities either not listed or not thought of.
You can transport your entire army between expansions just as quickly via ground instead of via nydus, and thats free. When it comes to full armies, nydus is trash. For reinforcements with larger slow units (ie: the already mentioned hydra nydus play), they are great if you are able to get them set up, sure... but thats not exactly an ideal unit comp or situation.
Okay so let me get your logic straight here. I just want to make sure I understand fully.
You think that you can transport units between expansions JUST as quickly across the map as via nydus? Something that takes time vs something that doesn't take time (respectively)? You make no sense at all.
Maybe if you're on steppes of war and you are transferring between your nat and 3rd this is true. But imagine you are on a map like tal'darim altar (just as an example... it applies on almost all modern maps). Just to paint a picture here, you're in the bottom left and your terran opponent is in the top right. You have taken a lot of the map including the top left and bottom right expansions and the terran is harassing them with multi-pronged drops. Are you honestly trying to tell me right now that to defend the top left and bottom right expansions you would be just as quick to react and just as fast with unit positioning running your army all the way across the diagonal of the map as opposed to going thru a magic tunnel that literally INSTANTLY pops the units out regardless of distance?
Use some basic logic please...
BUT IT ONLY UNLOADS ONE UNIT AT TIME!!11!1!!!
Seriously, guys, nydus is totally the fine the way it is. The game just hasn't gotten there yet.
Edit: Watch Sleep play. He uses nydus like a boss. infestor/broodlord in front with ultra/ling by nydus in the back? Yes please.
On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote: Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass.
Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership.
If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you.
Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game.
If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second.
As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP.
The concept you still seem to be missing is that using nyduses to drop into someone's main is not the only (or even the main) purpose they can be used for. Transporting armies between expansions, transporting drones between expansions (including islands, as well as cut-off, far away bases you are sacrificing), setting up instant reinforcements as they rally, and setting up exits to launch multi-pronged attacks (that can fluidly reinforce each other depending on which location needs more units) are all just some of the examples of the many uses of nyduses. I am sure there are other possibilities either not listed or not thought of.
You can transport your entire army between expansions just as quickly via ground instead of via nydus, and thats free. When it comes to full armies, nydus is trash. For reinforcements with larger slow units (ie: the already mentioned hydra nydus play), they are great if you are able to get them set up, sure... but thats not exactly an ideal unit comp or situation.
Okay so let me get your logic straight here. I just want to make sure I understand fully.
You think that you can transport units between expansions JUST as quickly across the map as via nydus? Something that takes time vs something that doesn't take time (respectively)? You make no sense at all.
Maybe if you're on steppes of war and you are transferring between your nat and 3rd this is true. But imagine you are on a map like tal'darim altar (just as an example... it applies on almost all modern maps). Just to paint a picture here, you're in the bottom left and your terran opponent is in the top right. You have taken a lot of the map including the top left and bottom right expansions and the terran is harassing them with multi-pronged drops. Are you honestly trying to tell me right now that to defend the top left and bottom right expansions you would be just as quick to react and just as fast with unit positioning running your army all the way across the diagonal of the map as opposed to going thru a magic tunnel that literally INSTANTLY pops the units out regardless of distance?
Use some basic logic please...
BUT IT ONLY UNLOADS ONE UNIT AT TIME!!11!1!!!
Seriously, guys, nydus is totally the fine the way it is. The game just hasn't gotten there yet.
Edit: Watch Sleep play. He uses nydus like a boss. infestor/broodlord in front with ultra/ling by nydus in the back? Yes please.
If you skip to like 4:00 hours in. This is like an incredibly epic ZvT, and he wins essentially with nydus play. He actually uses nydus lategame against terran pretty frequently though. If you check out any other of his awesomely epic ZvTs they usually involve nydus.
On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote: Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass.
Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership.
If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you.
Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game.
If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second.
As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP.
The concept you still seem to be missing is that using nyduses to drop into someone's main is not the only (or even the main) purpose they can be used for. Transporting armies between expansions, transporting drones between expansions (including islands, as well as cut-off, far away bases you are sacrificing), setting up instant reinforcements as they rally, and setting up exits to launch multi-pronged attacks (that can fluidly reinforce each other depending on which location needs more units) are all just some of the examples of the many uses of nyduses. I am sure there are other possibilities either not listed or not thought of.
You can transport your entire army between expansions just as quickly via ground instead of via nydus, and thats free. When it comes to full armies, nydus is trash. For reinforcements with larger slow units (ie: the already mentioned hydra nydus play), they are great if you are able to get them set up, sure... but thats not exactly an ideal unit comp or situation.
Okay so let me get your logic straight here. I just want to make sure I understand fully.
You think that you can transport units between expansions JUST as quickly across the map as via nydus? Something that takes time vs something that doesn't take time (respectively)? You make no sense at all.
Maybe if you're on steppes of war and you are transferring between your nat and 3rd this is true. But imagine you are on a map like tal'darim altar (just as an example... it applies on almost all modern maps). Just to paint a picture here, you're in the bottom left and your terran opponent is in the top right. You have taken a lot of the map including the top left and bottom right expansions and the terran is harassing them with multi-pronged drops. Are you honestly trying to tell me right now that to defend the top left and bottom right expansions you would be just as quick to react and just as fast with unit positioning running your army all the way across the diagonal of the map as opposed to going thru a magic tunnel that literally INSTANTLY pops the units out regardless of distance?
Use some basic logic please...
In truth, there are few maps that are played as frequently as tal'darim that has a comparable size or expansion distance.
It makes perfect sense for zerg to use nydus late game once he tries to secure the outer expansions and in all honestly, I actually think the nydus is better then any other static defense that secures expansions in that regard (Including PF's). The ability to send 5 infestors to one end of the map then back to another to stop 2 simultaneous drops is just amazing.
But if you look at the map pool now, there are few situations where its actually logical for zerg to use nydus simply because either the expansions are close enough to the zerg's nat to not warrant it or the terrain is benefiting zerg to easily reinforce positions. The only real maps that offer the same opportunities for Nydus to be useful is calm before the storm (not in any current tournament play iirc) and maaayyybeee Terminus.
For me, the first thing that needs to change is the fact that it gets bloody announced. Does the game announce when a DT shrine is warped? No? Then why does a nydus?
As a mid-level zerg the only viable situation I've it used is when protoss do that cute 3-pylon ramp block + cannons at your natural and your unlucky enough to be unable to block it / scout it in time. In this case you'd be able to nydus your way to an expansion other than your natural, or alternatively go 1-base roach/ling and nydus their main.
Obviously this will never happen in tournaments due to the neutral supply depot at the bottom of every ramp, so in terms of high-end play it still lacks viability. The element of surprise is GONE with the popup warning, not to mention it's extremely difficult to sneak a nydus in unless your applying a hell of a lot of pressure to your opponent's base. In any case overlord drops are more viable of an option purely because the surprise attack occurs instantly rather than when the nydus completes, and in addition your units will drop in much quicker (would I be correct in saying 4 nydus worms = 8 overlords dropping?).
The nydus worm is much slower to properly use in SC2 due to the fact that it unloads one unit at a time, meaning most ground armies that don't have mostly ultralisks will take a long time to get from place to place via nydus. Compare this to BW, where units went straight from nydus to nydus.
So Sleep uses primarily ultralisks which loads and unloads quickly and kills buildings quickly in lategame on main and side bases and gives terran problems with moving out of the base because you need a lot of marines to deal with 5-6 ultralisks.
On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote: Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass.
Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership.
If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you.
Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game.
If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second.
As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP.
The concept you still seem to be missing is that using nyduses to drop into someone's main is not the only (or even the main) purpose they can be used for. Transporting armies between expansions, transporting drones between expansions (including islands, as well as cut-off, far away bases you are sacrificing), setting up instant reinforcements as they rally, and setting up exits to launch multi-pronged attacks (that can fluidly reinforce each other depending on which location needs more units) are all just some of the examples of the many uses of nyduses. I am sure there are other possibilities either not listed or not thought of.
You can transport your entire army between expansions just as quickly via ground instead of via nydus, and thats free. When it comes to full armies, nydus is trash. For reinforcements with larger slow units (ie: the already mentioned hydra nydus play), they are great if you are able to get them set up, sure... but thats not exactly an ideal unit comp or situation.
Okay so let me get your logic straight here. I just want to make sure I understand fully.
You think that you can transport units between expansions JUST as quickly across the map as via nydus? Something that takes time vs something that doesn't take time (respectively)? You make no sense at all.
Maybe if you're on steppes of war and you are transferring between your nat and 3rd this is true. But imagine you are on a map like tal'darim altar (just as an example... it applies on almost all modern maps). Just to paint a picture here, you're in the bottom left and your terran opponent is in the top right. You have taken a lot of the map including the top left and bottom right expansions and the terran is harassing them with multi-pronged drops. Are you honestly trying to tell me right now that to defend the top left and bottom right expansions you would be just as quick to react and just as fast with unit positioning running your army all the way across the diagonal of the map as opposed to going thru a magic tunnel that literally INSTANTLY pops the units out regardless of distance?
Use some basic logic please...
Actually, that's pretty much it. In your example especially, Nydus would be bad since the drop marines would just kill the nydus and mop up whatever units came through. It's always far sneakier and more efficient to transfer units on the ground.
On the ground, on creep, there's no risk of being found, having the nydus sniped mid-unload and having your army split and killed. It's actually far faster if you're moving lings, since they unload SO damn slow. And it is always safer since your opponent doesn't immiedately know what you're doing due to a built in interface alert.
I love how the people making dumb devil-advocate theorycraft statements 1) Don't play zerg at a high level and 2) never post good examples of their theory in practice.
In this whole thread there are what, two? examples of high level nydus work, none from code-A or code-S.
The cost. 300/300 for the first one is a big investment. Do it early enough and it's all in.
The vision. For the same cost as 1 nydus worm, your typical spotter, the overlord can unload units all game, free of charge, and gets more mobility.
They can't be cancelled once the worm is set. I'm sure every zerg who planted a shitty nydus worm knows what this feels like.
They make a noise when you use them. Drops don't.
I also think that when someone resorts to nydus worms, they're taking a gamble. The gamble? "I bet my opponent won't see this coming!"
The only thing I can think of in terms of nydus being better than drops is the ability to travel any amount of distance instantly (if you ignore the time it takes to load into the worm and to unload). In summary, you might as well use drops.
The only thing I can think of in terms of nydus being better than drops is the ability to travel any amount of distance instantly (if you ignore the time it takes to load into the worm and to unload). In summary, you might as well use drops.
I dont understand people that don't realize you can run back through a nydus.
On March 10 2012 12:29 dUTtrOACh wrote: Why are they underused?
The cost. 300/300 for the first one is a big investment. Do it early enough and it's all in.
The vision. For the same cost as 1 nydus worm, your typical spotter, the overlord can unload units all game, free of charge, and gets more mobility.
They can't be cancelled once the worm is set. I'm sure every zerg who planted a shitty nydus worm knows what this feels like.
They make a noise when you use them. Drops don't.
I also think that when someone resorts to nydus worms, they're taking a gamble. The gamble? "I bet my opponent won't see this coming!"
The only thing I can think of in terms of nydus being better than drops is the ability to travel any amount of distance instantly (if you ignore the time it takes to load into the worm and to unload). In summary, you might as well use drops.
Well said. In addition to being easy to spot, they have very little HP. Overall, it's a resource drain that's not really worth it usually. The only way to use them is on huge maps and even there, if your opponent is great it becomes more or less useless there as well.
One of the biggest problems is the unload speed. If you want to move a big army, you cant use a nydus, you will have to use 2 or three. They unload so slow that their army will be back in time before any real damage can be done. If you do it early/mid game as every says it is cheese. Late game you cant transfer enough units fast enough compared to a big drop or a runby.
And for defensive purposes, units transfer faster on creep anyway so the nydus just dont fit in anywhere.
It could be used for flanking attacks though. But you still hear the sound.
It takes gimmicky to a new level. If you nydus rush, your basically counting on your oppenent not to build pylons in his base. Also, if you run half your units through the nydus, he kills the nysdus. Your army will then be split in 2 which is basically GG.
Would be an interesting change if a nydus worm only made noise once a unit exited it. May only be a minor change, but could be the difference between someone getting into the position to defend.
I dont feel they're that underdused. They use it ocassionally, at least i feel that it happens in 50% of all tournaments. I ithnk a problem with Nydus Worm is not the Nydus itself, but that it's only viable on some certain maps.
On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote: Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass.
Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership.
If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you.
Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game.
If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second.
As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP.
The concept you still seem to be missing is that using nyduses to drop into someone's main is not the only (or even the main) purpose they can be used for. Transporting armies between expansions, transporting drones between expansions (including islands, as well as cut-off, far away bases you are sacrificing), setting up instant reinforcements as they rally, and setting up exits to launch multi-pronged attacks (that can fluidly reinforce each other depending on which location needs more units) are all just some of the examples of the many uses of nyduses. I am sure there are other possibilities either not listed or not thought of.
You can transport your entire army between expansions just as quickly via ground instead of via nydus, and thats free. When it comes to full armies, nydus is trash. For reinforcements with larger slow units (ie: the already mentioned hydra nydus play), they are great if you are able to get them set up, sure... but thats not exactly an ideal unit comp or situation.
Okay so let me get your logic straight here. I just want to make sure I understand fully.
You think that you can transport units between expansions JUST as quickly across the map as via nydus? Something that takes time vs something that doesn't take time (respectively)? You make no sense at all.
Maybe if you're on steppes of war and you are transferring between your nat and 3rd this is true. But imagine you are on a map like tal'darim altar (just as an example... it applies on almost all modern maps). Just to paint a picture here, you're in the bottom left and your terran opponent is in the top right. You have taken a lot of the map including the top left and bottom right expansions and the terran is harassing them with multi-pronged drops. Are you honestly trying to tell me right now that to defend the top left and bottom right expansions you would be just as quick to react and just as fast with unit positioning running your army all the way across the diagonal of the map as opposed to going thru a magic tunnel that literally INSTANTLY pops the units out regardless of distance?
Use some basic logic please...
Actually, that's pretty much it. In your example especially, Nydus would be bad since the drop marines would just kill the nydus and mop up whatever units came through. It's always far sneakier and more efficient to transfer units on the ground.
On the ground, on creep, there's no risk of being found, having the nydus sniped mid-unload and having your army split and killed. It's actually far faster if you're moving lings, since they unload SO damn slow. And it is always safer since your opponent doesn't immiedately know what you're doing due to a built in interface alert.
I love how the people making dumb devil-advocate theorycraft statements 1) Don't play zerg at a high level and 2) never post good examples of their theory in practice.
In this whole thread there are what, two? examples of high level nydus work, none from code-A or code-S.
It's a broken mechanic.
why would u put a nydus on a drop path? 100% of the time, when a terran drops he is going STRAIGHT for the mineral line. u can EASILY put a nydus outside of a expansion and a terran would never know about it unless he actively searches for it. so sniping a nydus would be possible if you put the nydus in a silly location like the mineral line or directly next to the hatchery... if u simply put it outside of the actuall base u are trying to defend then the enemy would have to go way out of there way to find it first of all and then to snipe it off. also, with correct overlord spread u SHOULD see the drop coming in the first place. so if u see it coming why not start to unload BEFORE he even gets a chance to snipe the nydus? it all boils down to map awareness. zerg has the ability to see 90% of the entire map with creep spread and overlord spread. no reason at all to not see a drop coming and prepare to unload units from a nydus.
also people really need to learn to think for themselves withing having to wait on a pro player to show u how its done... this is the same problem we had with warp prisms and, for awhile, we had the same problem with infestors in beta and early SC2 release. it took a good player like destiny to basically pioneer infestors and use them with great effect to finally realize "hey, infestors dont suck after all!". same thing with warp prisms. there potential wasnt realize till much later in the games lifespan.
its taking a bit longer for nydus worms sadly, so i believe it will take a buff before ppl actually start using them, which is quite sad. experiment with them late game people. the amount of mobility and MAP PRESENCE it gives to your army is insane. stop following pro players and get off of the mindset that "omg i have to make infestor brood lords or i loose the game!!!" experiment ffs till u find something that works.
late game nydus is so good when combined with drops. u can litterally harass multiple expansions at once with your ENTIRE army, and your army will NEVER be out of position because u can run back into the worm and instantly defend or harass another location. yes it takes a shit ton of gas, but all u have to do is cut broodlords. ur cutting immobility for mobility, a very fair trade IMO. broodlords are not the only way to victory my fellow zergies....
with all that being said there is one thing i want to change about nydus worms. you have to build multiple networks inorder to place multiple worms at once.(something many people dont even know you can do). this is good, but the gas cost gets pretty high. 2 networks means 2 worms placed at once. 3 networks is 3 worms placed at once and 4 networks is 4 worms at once. however 4 networks is like 800 gas. so to buff this i think nydus network should have a gas cost reduction to like 100 gas. 100 gas for network 100 for worm. still a heavy gas cost to place many worms, but not a insane amount. i think this will encourage people to play with worms more.
also for people saying "NYDUS WORMS UNLOAD TO SLOW!!!". do what i said above. make multiple networks and multiple worms and u can unload a entire 200/200 army in less then 5 seconds and load them all back up in the same amount of time. very very good. the gas cost is high, but like i said late game that should be a issue and the mobility it gives ur units is soooo good if used correctly
IMHO nydus worms are better then the warp in mechanic late game.
I saw an interesting PvZ the other day where the zerg put a nydus at each base and had about 10 hydras and one or two infestors in the network for most of the game, every time a base came under attack from a warp in or harass tactic, he just unpiled the units and crushed it, then went right back into the worm. When the actual army moved in, he had them rejoin the army from the nearest worm to his army and went to fight it, then they went right back into the worm when the fight was over.
He saved a lot of bases doing it, small groups of hydras are pretty good vs. small groups of gateway warp ins when there's a fungal keeping the hydras from getting hit, and I can't think of any way other than nydus to guarantee that your hydra hit squad will always be at the base getting hit to defend it.
Nydus is very strong. I feel that zerg players don't use it enough and are not practiced at using it correctly. I believe that if a zerg player plays a few weeks with mostly nydus oriented builds, his nydus control will become exceptional and he will be very good.
I believe it's because Nydus competes with drops, and players simply gear towards the "better decision".
both are a large investment made to improve the mobility of the Zerg ground army and allow for counter attacks/harrasment.
but I believe that Drop tech simply wins out thus limiting the use of Nydus play.
I think it's interesting the Blizzard decided to ty and revamp Nydus and allow it to be used offensivley but I feel it simply overlaps too much with Overlord drop tech.
For HoTS I would like to see them expirement with the idea of making nydus purely defensive and in late game, like available at hive tech, cheaper, faster unload rate and only usuable on creep or with a certain vacinity of a hatchery so that it is available as an obtion to allow slow late game armies to defend spread out exspansions.
also people really need to learn to think for themselves withing having to wait on a pro player to show u how its done... this is the same problem we had with warp prisms and, for awhile, we had the same problem with infestors in beta and early SC2 release. it took a good player like destiny to basically pioneer infestors and use them with great effect to finally realize "hey, infestors dont suck after all!". same thing with warp prisms. there potential wasnt realize till much later in the games lifespan.
Warp Prisms were buffed. It went up from 16 Queens shots to 23. Why? Because they were a gimmick unit. Some people experimented with Warpprism 4Gates. Didnt work out well because they got killed by two Queens rather fast.
Infestor was buffed EXTREMELY. It was an underused unit before, the first one utilizing it in an TvZ build was MrBitter, who used Infestors instead of Mutalisks and went for upgraded zergling/baneling/Ultralisk with Infestor support (before they were buffed).
So both of your example units were gimmick units before, utilized just by a handful of players. Both were buffed (+30% HP, +100% Spell DPS) and became "proper" units.
I don't think they're underused, in some ways they are like the DT tech switch for a losing protoss, a desperate move that if it works, will take a lost game and turn it into a win.
My friends that play at lower levels see them a lot as well, as people aren't nearly quick enough aboue scouting/pulling workers to the kill the nydus, they wreck house down there. Maybe it's one of those things like the supply drop that is supposed to make things a bit easier and more interesting at lower level play without changing balance at high levels.
I think it's a cost and counter thing that makes them hard to use. Maybe a slight cost reduction of gas. I'd also like to see them build faster on creep. that way you can get them up at your bases for defense faster. You could also use your scouting OL to spread creep in the enemy base and build it faster. If they scout a creep patch forming it's not an auto loss of the nydus rather you haven't planted it yet and can run the OL away. This effect should probably require a bit of creep or it could be too powerful in enemy bases.
also people really need to learn to think for themselves withing having to wait on a pro player to show u how its done... this is the same problem we had with warp prisms and, for awhile, we had the same problem with infestors in beta and early SC2 release. it took a good player like destiny to basically pioneer infestors and use them with great effect to finally realize "hey, infestors dont suck after all!". same thing with warp prisms. there potential wasnt realize till much later in the games lifespan.
Warp Prisms were buffed. It went up from 16 Queens shots to 23. Why? Because they were a gimmick unit. Some people experimented with Warpprism 4Gates. Didnt work out well because they got killed by two Queens rather fast.
Infestor was buffed EXTREMELY. It was an underused unit before, the first one utilizing it in an TvZ build was MrBitter, who used Infestors instead of Mutalisks and went for upgraded zergling/baneling/Ultralisk with Infestor support (before they were buffed).
So both of your example units were gimmick units before, utilized just by a handful of players. Both were buffed (+30% HP, +100% Spell DPS) and became "proper" units.
it honestly wasnt that hard to keep a warp prism alive pre shield buff. 1 queen was not gonna kill it. infestors kill them regardless of a shield buff and so do mutas/corruptors. so honestly, the shield buff was a very minor buff. was it needed? ya, but a gimmick unit? no, not in the slightest. its still not used against terran much because of marines.
infestors on the other hand had a pretty complicated life cycle since beta. it was buffed and nerfed constantly.
in beta it was just plain overpowered. 48 dmg fungal that lasted 8 seconds and NP was permanent at one point. im not gonna go over the huge lists of changes infestor has went through, but it was FAR from a gimmick. it was overpowered for quite a long time in its early stages.
so dont tell me infestors were "buffed". thats a unit that was nerfed and buffed to hell for so many months. it was underused because many ppl didnt know how to use them properly. the 8 second root on fungal was ALWAYS there and it was ALWAYS good, u cant tell me it wasnt.
another under used unit was the colossi. go figure right? it took awhile before toss players actually formed the death ball with this unit. most were going just pure gateway for awhile because they thought colossi was a "poor mans reaver". hydra roach were dominating toss till they FINALLY figured out "oh wait, colossi have range 9 splash, lets try it out!". it took them awhile before colossi became mainstream.
but wait, i can go even further with this!. Hight templars, another under used unit back in the day. ppl just simply did not get them despite storm drops still being good. how long did it take toss to finnally use storm against terran and zerg? so many ppl argued "storm sucks now compared to BW and doesnt do DPS fast enough". all the excuses in the world to not use HTs and storm.
i can go on with this but ima stop there.
players just hate to experiment with underused units and i have no idea why.
I think the biggest problem is that its hard to recoup the costs, even if you DO manage to get it up. Unless you're already using them for defense for your expansions, its not as effective to get that to only possible take out a building or a couple of workers before their army moves into position.
Maybe if they were used in different ways like quick reinforcements possibly. If there were a metagame change or if players figure out some really good ways, it might work. But for the time being, doesnt seem very practical.
On March 16 2012 07:04 1st_Panzer_Div. wrote: My friends that play at lower levels see them a lot as well, as people aren't nearly quick enough aboue scouting/pulling workers to the kill the nydus, they wreck house down there. Maybe it's one of those things like the supply drop that is supposed to make things a bit easier and more interesting at lower level play without changing balance at high levels.
Just make sure you know how to use the nydus My friend (silver) went 4gate against someone who nydus rushed in 2v2, he was slow to notice the nydus worm in his base, but the zerg never even unloaded a single unit, he had enough time to warp in 2 zealots and kill it after it had already completed lol.
On March 16 2012 10:14 Ballistixz wrote: another under used unit was the colossi. go figure right? it took awhile before toss players actually formed the death ball with this unit. most were going just pure gateway for awhile because they thought colossi was a "poor mans reaver". hydra roach were dominating toss till they FINALLY figured out "oh wait, colossi have range 9 splash, lets try it out!". it took them awhile before colossi became mainstream.
Hmm, when was this?
I remember when I joined in the beta everything seemed to revolve around Immortal/Roach/Marauder, I think because Roaches required only 1 control and Marauders came with Concussive Shells and... well, to add to your argument, there was a time when people underused Marines. Crazy.
Anyway, after that I remember Colossus becoming quite popular, so I have to guess you're talking about the very early beta?
From a Terran's perspective I think the Nydus deserves some looking into. As it is now I don't think it's worth the investment the majority of the time. The fact that units unload and load so slowly makes it worthless for defense when your army can travel quicker with creep anyways. And unless your opponent is horribly out of position or has poor vision of his bases it can be extremely hard to pull off.
On March 16 2012 14:20 MaV_gGSC wrote: Well if everyone used it, every terran/toss would be super cautious rendering it ineffective
No one uses it because it's bad. It is hard countered by competence meaning it doesn't work if the player is smart enough to have vision of his entire base.
I got nydus rushed a few days ago on EU server, and it worked frighteningly well vs my hellion expand - he brought queens and a ton of roaches- I think it hasn't been explored enough in general, and especially for cheese
On March 16 2012 10:14 Ballistixz wrote: another under used unit was the colossi. go figure right? it took awhile before toss players actually formed the death ball with this unit. most were going just pure gateway for awhile because they thought colossi was a "poor mans reaver". hydra roach were dominating toss till they FINALLY figured out "oh wait, colossi have range 9 splash, lets try it out!". it took them awhile before colossi became mainstream.
Hmm, when was this?
I remember when I joined in the beta everything seemed to revolve around Immortal/Roach/Marauder, I think because Roaches required only 1 control and Marauders came with Concussive Shells and... well, to add to your argument, there was a time when people underused Marines. Crazy.
Anyway, after that I remember Colossus becoming quite popular, so I have to guess you're talking about the very early beta?
terrans underused the marine tank pushes so popular in BW aswell and just focused on PURE bio(with medivac) for awhile.
and yes this was beta. colossi only became popular directly as a result of hydra roach being so strong in beta against toss. they refused to use the "gimmick" units like colossi and refused to use the "nerfed" version of storm. so it took them a bit to catch on. thats from my personal experience. i had so much fun agains toss players going pure gateway only.
also look at ravens. very very underused unit, but has alot of potential especially against broodlord infestor. a shame it took a ghost nerf for terrans to finaly realize that huh?
The biggest problem I see with Nydus is that it kinda makes your army vulnerable. Like ok, lets say I actually get my Nydus down in the base of a Toss or Terran and flood my army in, well then they pull their army back and we're fighting in the middle of their base full of narrow chokes for all of my units to get raped in. Idk, for a race that relies on surrounds it seems like a complete waste unless you're incredibly lucky. The reward just really doesn't often out outweigh the risk, why not just invest more money on Mutas or something and try picking off some tech or whatever.
On March 17 2012 10:17 BeeNu wrote: The biggest problem I see with Nydus is that it kinda makes your army vulnerable. Like ok, lets say I actually get my Nydus down in the base of a Toss or Terran and flood my army in, well then they pull their army back and we're fighting in the middle of their base full of narrow chokes for all of my units to get raped in. Idk, for a race that relies on surrounds it seems like a complete waste unless you're incredibly lucky. The reward just really doesn't often out outweigh the risk, why not just invest more money on Mutas or something and try picking off some tech or whatever.
Sigh. The thing that makes nydus so much more superior to drops is that you can run away incredibly easily. Once your units are in a nydus they are completely safe. You can place nydus in odd locations to ensure that your army always has an exit strategy and never makes a bad trade.
EPT
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