EPTI remember thorzain denying tons of em on shattered not so long ago but on bigger maps like tal darim i feel it has underused purposes.
Why is the Nydus Worm underused? - Page 2
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tl4life
Canada247 Posts
I remember thorzain denying tons of em on shattered not so long ago but on bigger maps like tal darim i feel it has underused purposes. | ||
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cHaNg-sTa
United States1058 Posts
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babylon
8765 Posts
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fighter2_40
United States420 Posts
On March 01 2012 13:36 mrtomjones wrote: Slow to unload, slow to build, low health and pros usually catch them. This for sure. Also the gas cost, and you can only build one from one nydus netwrok at a time. | ||
p4NDemik
United States13896 Posts
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StanzA
Canada478 Posts
On March 01 2012 13:49 babylon wrote: I like the idea of using it to traverse a map to hit a very small timing window with fairly immobile units, e.g. hydras -- I think LosirA did this at MLG vs. .... maybe it was MC? Anyways, can't remember if it was all-in or not. T.T Yeah that was a cute build I've seen a few times. But that's all the Nydus is, cute. As far as metagame trends go I'm certain the Nydus has seen some time in plenty of practice games, it's just not good enough to ever consider strategically when there are other things you could invest in that are so much more stable and strong. | ||
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Playguuu
United States926 Posts
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Exigaet
Canada355 Posts
On March 01 2012 13:47 Torte de Lini wrote: Can't be canceled. Expensive to build. Expensive to make a Nydus. Obvious and limited use. units come out one at a time when you unload Yeah...all of these things have to be changed. ESPECIALLY the last one. They should make it so smaller units come out faster than bigger units. Like 4 lings or so at once, 2 roaches/hydras, 1 ultra, etc. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
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ClysmiC
United States2192 Posts
On March 01 2012 13:51 p4NDemik wrote: My favorite way of using Nydus worms is in situations when you'd otherwise be trapping in your entire army. Like on Shakuras ZvZ you want to take out a couple of bases b/c you caught your opponent out of position? push into natural, put down Nydus while you are doing it, snipe hatches/tech then exit through the nydus with minimal losses. it feels so dirty. Yes, this is the best way to use Nydus IMO. Or maybe combo it with a roach doom-drop late-game to provide direct reinforcements and/or a quick retreat path. | ||
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
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Exempt.
United States470 Posts
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TheAmazombie
United States3714 Posts
Overall I ask this question all the time and in late game I cannot see why people don't use it for what I described more often other than the fact that it just has not needed to be done yet. I almost always like to build one and attempt to scare them in the main a bit once in awhile as well. It is like DTs or nukes in that even if you don't do much damage at all, at least you scare them and if they fail to react, then you will just win or do a ton of damage. It is a tool that is great for forcing the initiative. I just think that sometime in the future people will figure this out. | ||
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Quintum_
United States669 Posts
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Spieltor
327 Posts
On March 01 2012 13:35 `Zapdos wrote: Because workers can kill them, they cost gas each time you want to make a new one, and yes they are used but they tend to not be very effective except in late game for getting from one place to another very fast. Trying to use it to attack into someones base is usually useless. all of this. They might be usefukl in metagame if you can land one and spit out 4 ultralisks in someones base or something. you know, a unit that has a lot of power/single unit load time cost ratio. maybe also use it to "blink" 4 infestors into someone's base, spit some ITs and then 'blink" back. Its a powerful harass option. Unfortunately gameplay styles from anyone above retarded monkey level will find and shut it down. here's the difference between nydus worm and nydus canal. Nydus canals spit out 12 units simultaneously (or something crazy like that). Nydus canals can only be built on creep, so basically its base to base defense. in this game, especially due to creep increasing speed, nydus worms are far less useful for that. you can get your units out of a worm 1-by-1 from across the map into your base to try to defend it, but then you're out of position and youre just sending units into a linear egress suicide line. contrast to getting there just a tiny bit slower with creep speed, and the choice is obious. Also DPS is huge in sc2 unlike sc1. in sc1 you could get out of a canal and defend, because positioning mattered less if you could micro, and all races had pretty even damage stats. unloading in the face of an sc2 deathball is suicide. for all these reasons, nydus worm is garbage. It's a design concept from sc1, and it doesn't work in sc2. For it to work, would require that the power of all the races was balanced like sc1. | ||
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Exigaet
Canada355 Posts
On March 01 2012 14:08 Quintum_ wrote: I think an easy fix would be to treat it as a borrowed unit. You would still hear the screech and while you would be able to see it while it was morphing/building(the ground crumbling animation) you would not be able to attack it tell it popped unless you had detection. After it popped it would be the same as it is now. Maybe then you could work it into a strat instead of it being a very high risk with low successes like it is now. That's actually a pretty good idea. The screech would have to be moved to the front but I feel like it's health would still have to be buffed. Terran could just scan and kill it with SCVs before it even popped. | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
There's a lot of underused nydus techniques though. For example, Nydus' are great for preventing armies from moving out in force or just in general winning base trade. Without a nydus often times if a player moves out and is attacked, they'll either retreat and kill the attacking army, or push on for a base trade. With a Nydus either response kind of sucks. If they push on they'll face a full army back at the zerg's base already in position (assuming the Zerg responds in a timely matter), if the turn back the army will slip away in the nydus and take minimal losses. Even if it does become a base trade, the zerg army has the chance to evacuate all drones (more or less) and rebuild with a full drone count. Meanwhile a T or P has to move workers cross map exposing them to risk. The other situation is doing really strong harass tricks. An example is harassing with mutalisks, while attacking with zerglings on a 3rd. In this situation rather than focusing on the usually protected workers with the mutalisks, they can instead cover a nydus worm (while taking out nearby buildings) that suddenly is a tough thing to respond to. If the player pulls all/most troops to kill the threat, then the 3rd is undefended. If the player sends a response that's what you'd normally send to handle the mutalisks the worm is probably going to complete before the mutas die and the force will be overrun by the emerging units (unless they target the worm first, but worms have a better hp/cost ratio than mutas). Even worse, depending on the base defense, by moving to cover the worm and kill that you may be exposing parts of the main or your nat to the mutalisk harass. Think about a worm on the far out corner of Tal'Darim Altar's mains where mutas can strike at any point along that flank from main to nat or fly to the 3rd, but you need to move troops out of position to attack the worm. If the player sends no response then obviously nydus in the base. If the player sends a somewhat larger response than you'd normally send for just the mutas, the zerg can pull back the mutas and hit the 3rd full force before the T can respond (map dependent). So you it really reduces the opponent's possible margin of error. They need to handle the situation really well to make sure they take down the nydus, defend their 3rd, and don't expose workers or units to risk of being overrun. Take Korhal Compound for example. If your opponent is on 3 bases they have a long flank to defend where getting to the left (if they are top) side of their 3rd is a far way away from how you enter the natural. With a nydus on that side of the map one one mid-map it becomes really hard to keep up with an army bouncing between the two, especially if it is combined with the threat of mutalisks or drops that also demand defend of the main, and again base trading isn't much of an option because the zerg will get back to defend before you cross the map. One other tactic I am dieing to see someone use... it must be done... bait an scv pull with a nydus worm, but have the spotting overlord full of banelings. The last important situation I see ALL THE TIME in pro games that make me wonder about nydus is late game ZvT when you have something like a cross map split with a wide flank exposed. Time and time again I'll see the Z attack in with ultra/infestor army, but have to pull back because the T army is moving out to kill the Z's 3rd/4th. In these situations mid-map nyduses would be a life saver by allowing the Z to harass T 3rds/4ths, then be back and in position in time to defend. Without the nydus what I see happen again and again is the Z gets back as the T is setting up outside of the Z's base so rather than attacking from position the Z is attacking into position with a stretched out/scattered army. + Show Spoiler [Very minor Winter Assembly Spoilers] + The Winter Assembly finals/semi-finals/3rd place matches really showed that in a few games, I think Stephano's play mostly. Nydus worms are really cost efficient too, more than given credit for. Their main weakness cost-wise is being sniped (the canal, not the worm). 1 Worm though is 100/100 which is only 4 roaches worth of gas or 1 mutalisk and they will easily save way more than that by giving you superior positioning, retreating capabilities, and harassment options. If you imagined a game where someone could spread creep (but better creep) to any point on the map near instantly for 100/100 you'd see people do that, often. The 150/150 'research cost' makes it less automatic or something not to do every game, but not by much. Still one worm is around 6 zerglings, 2-4 roaches, or <1/2 an ultra. All you need to do is save just that little and the worm paid for itself, over time the canal can pay for itself it doesn't need to do it in one worm. Offensively you're looking at just a few workers or 2 minor buildings and the worm has paid for itself. It just feels expensive because they're often misused and when used properly the benefit isn't always clearly related (much like creep's benefits can be tricky to spot). People make worms out to be drops way to much. Their only strong drop-like use is that they can be done in reaction to spotting a potential drop situation like catching someone vulnerable to mutalisk harass and using that to make a worm. So basically I think Nydus worms are one of the strongest things in the games, but players aren't using them for some reason, mostly because they're hard to conceptualize and unless the worm pays off huge it's hard to analyze if it was cost efficient. I think that anytime a zerg feels like he has control of the game a well used nydus is a good way to hold on to that control of the game. My core point is: People don't think about nydus' properly. They are much closer in function to creep than drops. Think of worms as super creep that bends space and time to your advantage. Oh also... It's not about sneaking worms into someone's base hoping they don't notice. That's completely missing the point. + Show Spoiler [balance talk-ish kinda stuff] + If worms need a buff the ONLY two things worth buffing imo are: -Canal (not worm) hp (The canal is a weak point to any long term nydus strategy/usage). -Gas cost of worm from 100->50 (Zerg are gas hungry as is, this would help) Making worms have more hp would be OP for tactics like mutalisks covering a canal while lings poke the 3rd/nat. As would making them invis or anything like that. | ||
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R0YAL
United States1768 Posts
1. For offensive. It can be snuck into a corner of an enemies base with overlord/overseer vision, or even put in vision if your feeling more bold. Well at the pro level its a lot harder to catch someone with their pants down like this, and due to Zerg's inability to cancel the nydus its pretty risky because theres a chance that you are just throwing away gas for nothing. However, if you can catch your opponent off guard with this than it can be very beneficial. 2. It can also be put on the map close to the enemies base to allow your army to be 'rallied' there much sooner. This is pretty good even though I never see it. I guess most Zergs really want their gas for other things. 3. It could possibly be used as a way to rally drones and produced units from distant bases to your focus defensive area. 4. I remember discussions on it being able to replace a Hatchery, using a series of rallies with drones. Not sure if this is practical or not I haven't tried it. Its not very practical because of the gas and you have to babysit it constantly. Just go for the Hatchery, larva never hurt. Although, it could be okay in extreme circumstances but definitely not standard. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
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Spieltor
327 Posts
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