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Nydus Worm loads at a rate of 0.25 game seconds per unit and unloads at 0.5 game seconds per unit.
Dropships unload at 1 second per unit while it loads with no delay.
Lings definitely do unload too slow. They could make it so lings unload at 0.25 seconds instead of 0.5. (To do that, they could have two load abilities. One has a validator that checks for lings, the other checks for not lings).
I haven't tested it (a unit with two load/unload abilities) "but" there is a section for "unload validator" for cargo (allowing you make it check for what type of units are being unloaded).
IMO I think another thing they could do is give Nydus Worm a secondary function. Maybe it even provide supply/control per head? For it to be viable, it should provide most cost effecient supply than Overlords.
IMO if they gave Nydus Worm a secondary function (like provide supply, maybe even can cast certain spells), it could become more useful. Maybe provide 24 supply per head (that means 100/100 minerals/gold for 24 supply compared to 100 minerals for 8 supply / another way would to grant the Nydus Network structure 48 supply while the heads themselves grant no supply).
(The numbers can change, obviously 48 supply for building the Nydus Network structure may be too strong.)
It may seem silly at first but IMO, if they gave a secondary function like that to the Nydus, then it would see more use.
The reason why I thought of supply instead of something else because it's a bit more simpler. Plus it makes it sort of a structure transport counterpart to the Overload. In both cases, they both would provide supply and can be used to transport units.
Anyway, advantages of building Nydus Network/Worms for supply instead of Overlords:
1. Save larva (one drone can be used to provide 48 supply via Nydus Network as opposed to 6 Overlords).
2. Can be used to provide a network between your bases.
The main downside is that it costs gas (and typically, Zerg needs gas more than minerals), it can't be used for scouting, and the fact that if it's killed, you could be easily supplied block.
Of course besides that crazy idea, here are some other things:
1. Make it so once zerg has Hive, the Nydus Worm is upgraded with increased health and/or unload time (it's possible to make units or structures change or get upgrades if a structure is built). To do this, they could give the Nydus Worm a behavior with a Validator that checks if the hive is built or not. Once built, the validator activates and buffs the unit.
Same can be done with unload/load ability.
2. Likewise, they could make it so the Nydus Worm is cheaper and faster to build if a Hive is present.
3. Of course they could do the old method of just making it an upgrade that you have to purchase.
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btw, has anyone else ever been annoyed by Ultralisks in a Nydus having this huge Ultralisk symbol, so you only see 2 ultralisks on the first unit page and you have to click through a lot of pages to find out if you have different units in the Nydus as well...
Not as if it matters a lot, but I had a situation in which my Nydus was filled with units and I just wanted to get a defensive Infestor per base, and then you click your defensive Nydus worm and search 4pages of ultralisks for an infestor to click it out, then you go to the next base click on the nydus worm and search for the next infestor...
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On March 04 2012 15:25 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 17:14 -orb- wrote:On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass. Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership. If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you. Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game. If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second. As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP.
The concept you still seem to be missing is that using nyduses to drop into someone's main is not the only (or even the main) purpose they can be used for. Transporting armies between expansions, transporting drones between expansions (including islands, as well as cut-off, far away bases you are sacrificing), setting up instant reinforcements as they rally, and setting up exits to launch multi-pronged attacks (that can fluidly reinforce each other depending on which location needs more units) are all just some of the examples of the many uses of nyduses. I am sure there are other possibilities either not listed or not thought of.
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reduce unburrow time to 15 sec (which still is a fairly long time) and allow to retreat nydus heads (5 sec burrow time) to safe mineral/gas.
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On March 04 2012 17:37 Goldfish wrote:+ Show Spoiler +
Nydus Worm loads at a rate of 0.25 game seconds per unit and unloads at 0.5 game seconds per unit.
Dropships unload at 1 second per unit while it loads with no delay.
Lings definitely do unload too slow. They could make it so lings unload at 0.25 seconds instead of 0.5. (To do that, they could have two load abilities. One has a validator that checks for lings, the other checks for not lings).
I haven't tested it (a unit with two load/unload abilities) "but" there is a section for "unload validator" for cargo (allowing you make it check for what type of units are being unloaded).
IMO I think another thing they could do is give Nydus Worm a secondary function. Maybe it even provide supply/control per head? For it to be viable, it should provide most cost effecient supply than Overlords.
IMO if they gave Nydus Worm a secondary function (like provide supply, maybe even can cast certain spells), it could become more useful. Maybe provide 24 supply per head (that means 100/100 minerals/gold for 24 supply compared to 100 minerals for 8 supply / another way would to grant the Nydus Network structure 48 supply while the heads themselves grant no supply).
(The numbers can change, obviously 48 supply for building the Nydus Network structure may be too strong.)
It may seem silly at first but IMO, if they gave a secondary function like that to the Nydus, then it would see more use.
The reason why I thought of supply instead of something else because it's a bit more simpler. Plus it makes it sort of a structure transport counterpart to the Overload. In both cases, they both would provide supply and can be used to transport units.
Anyway, advantages of building Nydus Network/Worms for supply instead of Overlords:
1. Save larva (one drone can be used to provide 48 supply via Nydus Network as opposed to 6 Overlords).
2. Can be used to provide a network between your bases.
The main downside is that it costs gas (and typically, Zerg needs gas more than minerals), it can't be used for scouting, and the fact that if it's killed, you could be easily supplied block.
Of course besides that crazy idea, here are some other things:
1. Make it so once zerg has Hive, the Nydus Worm is upgraded with increased health and/or unload time (it's possible to make units or structures change or get upgrades if a structure is built). To do this, they could give the Nydus Worm a behavior with a Validator that checks if the hive is built or not. Once built, the validator activates and buffs the unit.
Same can be done with unload/load ability.
2. Likewise, they could make it so the Nydus Worm is cheaper and faster to build if a Hive is present.
3. Of course they could do the old method of just making it an upgrade that you have to purchase.
Would it not be better if it unload certain amount of food per time instead? So every 0.5 seconds it unloads 6 food, 1 ultra, 3 roaches,12lings or any combination of units that adds up to 6 food (or less of course).
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On March 04 2012 19:29 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 15:25 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 03 2012 17:14 -orb- wrote:On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass. Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership. If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you. Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game. If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second. As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP. The concept you still seem to be missing is that using nyduses to drop into someone's main is not the only (or even the main) purpose they can be used for. Transporting armies between expansions, transporting drones between expansions (including islands, as well as cut-off, far away bases you are sacrificing), setting up instant reinforcements as they rally, and setting up exits to launch multi-pronged attacks (that can fluidly reinforce each other depending on which location needs more units) are all just some of the examples of the many uses of nyduses. I am sure there are other possibilities either not listed or not thought of.
Don't forget instant retreat of an overextended army.
There are many times where the zerg is in a position where they're going to lose their whole army. For instance, if Protoss' deathball moves out and zerg swings in with their whole army to kill the third. This army usually dies, but if you place a nydus in a strategic location, you can actually retreat the army and lose a lot less. Obviously they could kill the nydus and leave you stranded, but saving your whole army for 100/100 is a pretty damn good deal.
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On March 04 2012 19:29 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 15:25 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 03 2012 17:14 -orb- wrote:On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass. Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership. If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you. Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game. If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second. As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP. The concept you still seem to be missing is that using nyduses to drop into someone's main is not the only (or even the main) purpose they can be used for. Transporting armies between expansions, transporting drones between expansions (including islands, as well as cut-off, far away bases you are sacrificing), setting up instant reinforcements as they rally, and setting up exits to launch multi-pronged attacks (that can fluidly reinforce each other depending on which location needs more units) are all just some of the examples of the many uses of nyduses. I am sure there are other possibilities either not listed or not thought of.
You can transport your entire army between expansions just as quickly via ground instead of via nydus, and thats free. When it comes to full armies, nydus is trash. For reinforcements with larger slow units (ie: the already mentioned hydra nydus play), they are great if you are able to get them set up, sure... but thats not exactly an ideal unit comp or situation.
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On March 05 2012 00:51 TheRabidDeer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 04 2012 19:29 -orb- wrote:On March 04 2012 15:25 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 03 2012 17:14 -orb- wrote:On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass. Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership. If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you. Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game. If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second. As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP. The concept you still seem to be missing is that using nyduses to drop into someone's main is not the only (or even the main) purpose they can be used for. Transporting armies between expansions, transporting drones between expansions (including islands, as well as cut-off, far away bases you are sacrificing), setting up instant reinforcements as they rally, and setting up exits to launch multi-pronged attacks (that can fluidly reinforce each other depending on which location needs more units) are all just some of the examples of the many uses of nyduses. I am sure there are other possibilities either not listed or not thought of. You can transport your entire army between expansions just as quickly via ground instead of via nydus, and thats free. When it comes to full armies, nydus is trash. For reinforcements with larger slow units (ie: the already mentioned hydra nydus play), they are great if you are able to get them set up, sure... but thats not exactly an ideal unit comp or situation.
Okay so let me get your logic straight here. I just want to make sure I understand fully.
You think that you can transport units between expansions JUST as quickly across the map as via nydus? Something that takes time vs something that doesn't take time (respectively)? You make no sense at all.
Maybe if you're on steppes of war and you are transferring between your nat and 3rd this is true. But imagine you are on a map like tal'darim altar (just as an example... it applies on almost all modern maps). Just to paint a picture here, you're in the bottom left and your terran opponent is in the top right. You have taken a lot of the map including the top left and bottom right expansions and the terran is harassing them with multi-pronged drops. Are you honestly trying to tell me right now that to defend the top left and bottom right expansions you would be just as quick to react and just as fast with unit positioning running your army all the way across the diagonal of the map as opposed to going thru a magic tunnel that literally INSTANTLY pops the units out regardless of distance?
Use some basic logic please...
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On March 05 2012 05:34 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 00:51 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 04 2012 19:29 -orb- wrote:On March 04 2012 15:25 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 03 2012 17:14 -orb- wrote:On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass. Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership. If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you. Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game. If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second. As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP. The concept you still seem to be missing is that using nyduses to drop into someone's main is not the only (or even the main) purpose they can be used for. Transporting armies between expansions, transporting drones between expansions (including islands, as well as cut-off, far away bases you are sacrificing), setting up instant reinforcements as they rally, and setting up exits to launch multi-pronged attacks (that can fluidly reinforce each other depending on which location needs more units) are all just some of the examples of the many uses of nyduses. I am sure there are other possibilities either not listed or not thought of. You can transport your entire army between expansions just as quickly via ground instead of via nydus, and thats free. When it comes to full armies, nydus is trash. For reinforcements with larger slow units (ie: the already mentioned hydra nydus play), they are great if you are able to get them set up, sure... but thats not exactly an ideal unit comp or situation. Okay so let me get your logic straight here. I just want to make sure I understand fully. You think that you can transport units between expansions JUST as quickly across the map as via nydus? Something that takes time vs something that doesn't take time (respectively)? You make no sense at all. Maybe if you're on steppes of war and you are transferring between your nat and 3rd this is true. But imagine you are on a map like tal'darim altar (just as an example... it applies on almost all modern maps). Just to paint a picture here, you're in the bottom left and your terran opponent is in the top right. You have taken a lot of the map including the top left and bottom right expansions and the terran is harassing them with multi-pronged drops. Are you honestly trying to tell me right now that to defend the top left and bottom right expansions you would be just as quick to react and just as fast with unit positioning running your army all the way across the diagonal of the map as opposed to going thru a magic tunnel that literally INSTANTLY pops the units out regardless of distance? Use some basic logic please...
BUT IT ONLY UNLOADS ONE UNIT AT TIME!!11!1!!!
Seriously, guys, nydus is totally the fine the way it is. The game just hasn't gotten there yet.
Edit: Watch Sleep play. He uses nydus like a boss. infestor/broodlord in front with ultra/ling by nydus in the back? Yes please.
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On March 05 2012 06:57 DoubleReed wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 05:34 -orb- wrote:On March 05 2012 00:51 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 04 2012 19:29 -orb- wrote:On March 04 2012 15:25 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 03 2012 17:14 -orb- wrote:On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass. Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership. If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you. Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game. If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second. As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP. The concept you still seem to be missing is that using nyduses to drop into someone's main is not the only (or even the main) purpose they can be used for. Transporting armies between expansions, transporting drones between expansions (including islands, as well as cut-off, far away bases you are sacrificing), setting up instant reinforcements as they rally, and setting up exits to launch multi-pronged attacks (that can fluidly reinforce each other depending on which location needs more units) are all just some of the examples of the many uses of nyduses. I am sure there are other possibilities either not listed or not thought of. You can transport your entire army between expansions just as quickly via ground instead of via nydus, and thats free. When it comes to full armies, nydus is trash. For reinforcements with larger slow units (ie: the already mentioned hydra nydus play), they are great if you are able to get them set up, sure... but thats not exactly an ideal unit comp or situation. Okay so let me get your logic straight here. I just want to make sure I understand fully. You think that you can transport units between expansions JUST as quickly across the map as via nydus? Something that takes time vs something that doesn't take time (respectively)? You make no sense at all. Maybe if you're on steppes of war and you are transferring between your nat and 3rd this is true. But imagine you are on a map like tal'darim altar (just as an example... it applies on almost all modern maps). Just to paint a picture here, you're in the bottom left and your terran opponent is in the top right. You have taken a lot of the map including the top left and bottom right expansions and the terran is harassing them with multi-pronged drops. Are you honestly trying to tell me right now that to defend the top left and bottom right expansions you would be just as quick to react and just as fast with unit positioning running your army all the way across the diagonal of the map as opposed to going thru a magic tunnel that literally INSTANTLY pops the units out regardless of distance? Use some basic logic please... BUT IT ONLY UNLOADS ONE UNIT AT TIME!!11!1!!! Seriously, guys, nydus is totally the fine the way it is. The game just hasn't gotten there yet. Edit: Watch Sleep play. He uses nydus like a boss. infestor/broodlord in front with ultra/ling by nydus in the back? Yes please.
Fuck yeah, sleep is an excellent example
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Got any vods of him using the nydus effectively? I would happily watch them :D
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On March 07 2012 02:36 Advocado wrote:
Got any vods of him using the nydus effectively? I would happily watch them :D
http://www.twitch.tv/92sleep/b/310637014
If you skip to like 4:00 hours in. This is like an incredibly epic ZvT, and he wins essentially with nydus play. He actually uses nydus lategame against terran pretty frequently though. If you check out any other of his awesomely epic ZvTs they usually involve nydus.
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On March 05 2012 05:34 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 00:51 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 04 2012 19:29 -orb- wrote:On March 04 2012 15:25 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 03 2012 17:14 -orb- wrote:On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass. Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership. If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you. Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game. If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second. As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP. The concept you still seem to be missing is that using nyduses to drop into someone's main is not the only (or even the main) purpose they can be used for. Transporting armies between expansions, transporting drones between expansions (including islands, as well as cut-off, far away bases you are sacrificing), setting up instant reinforcements as they rally, and setting up exits to launch multi-pronged attacks (that can fluidly reinforce each other depending on which location needs more units) are all just some of the examples of the many uses of nyduses. I am sure there are other possibilities either not listed or not thought of. You can transport your entire army between expansions just as quickly via ground instead of via nydus, and thats free. When it comes to full armies, nydus is trash. For reinforcements with larger slow units (ie: the already mentioned hydra nydus play), they are great if you are able to get them set up, sure... but thats not exactly an ideal unit comp or situation. Okay so let me get your logic straight here. I just want to make sure I understand fully. You think that you can transport units between expansions JUST as quickly across the map as via nydus? Something that takes time vs something that doesn't take time (respectively)? You make no sense at all. Maybe if you're on steppes of war and you are transferring between your nat and 3rd this is true. But imagine you are on a map like tal'darim altar (just as an example... it applies on almost all modern maps). Just to paint a picture here, you're in the bottom left and your terran opponent is in the top right. You have taken a lot of the map including the top left and bottom right expansions and the terran is harassing them with multi-pronged drops. Are you honestly trying to tell me right now that to defend the top left and bottom right expansions you would be just as quick to react and just as fast with unit positioning running your army all the way across the diagonal of the map as opposed to going thru a magic tunnel that literally INSTANTLY pops the units out regardless of distance? Use some basic logic please...
In truth, there are few maps that are played as frequently as tal'darim that has a comparable size or expansion distance.
It makes perfect sense for zerg to use nydus late game once he tries to secure the outer expansions and in all honestly, I actually think the nydus is better then any other static defense that secures expansions in that regard (Including PF's). The ability to send 5 infestors to one end of the map then back to another to stop 2 simultaneous drops is just amazing.
But if you look at the map pool now, there are few situations where its actually logical for zerg to use nydus simply because either the expansions are close enough to the zerg's nat to not warrant it or the terrain is benefiting zerg to easily reinforce positions. The only real maps that offer the same opportunities for Nydus to be useful is calm before the storm (not in any current tournament play iirc) and maaayyybeee Terminus.
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If they do change the nydus worm, I suggest they introduce another ability on the worm.
- Creates a nydus worm over 35 seconds instead of 20 seconds.
- Can only be made on creep.
- Costs nothing.
- Has 25 second cooldown so you can make 2 at once.
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For me, the first thing that needs to change is the fact that it gets bloody announced. Does the game announce when a DT shrine is warped? No? Then why does a nydus?
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I firmly believe that almost any change to the nydus would make it completely broken. It is just fine the way it is.
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As a mid-level zerg the only viable situation I've it used is when protoss do that cute 3-pylon ramp block + cannons at your natural and your unlucky enough to be unable to block it / scout it in time. In this case you'd be able to nydus your way to an expansion other than your natural, or alternatively go 1-base roach/ling and nydus their main.
Obviously this will never happen in tournaments due to the neutral supply depot at the bottom of every ramp, so in terms of high-end play it still lacks viability. The element of surprise is GONE with the popup warning, not to mention it's extremely difficult to sneak a nydus in unless your applying a hell of a lot of pressure to your opponent's base. In any case overlord drops are more viable of an option purely because the surprise attack occurs instantly rather than when the nydus completes, and in addition your units will drop in much quicker (would I be correct in saying 4 nydus worms = 8 overlords dropping?).
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your Country52797 Posts
The nydus worm is much slower to properly use in SC2 due to the fact that it unloads one unit at a time, meaning most ground armies that don't have mostly ultralisks will take a long time to get from place to place via nydus. Compare this to BW, where units went straight from nydus to nydus.
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So Sleep uses primarily ultralisks which loads and unloads quickly and kills buildings quickly in lategame on main and side bases and gives terran problems with moving out of the base because you need a lot of marines to deal with 5-6 ultralisks.
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On March 05 2012 05:34 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 05 2012 00:51 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 04 2012 19:29 -orb- wrote:On March 04 2012 15:25 TheRabidDeer wrote:On March 03 2012 17:14 -orb- wrote:On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass. Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership. If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you. Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game. If it were instantaneous, it would be strong. But, the reality is that it takes a long time. One, it takes a while to build the exit. They cant scout it in this time or you are just out 100/100. Two, units come out of it slowly. Three, unlike a dropship, you cant run away with it while keeping it alive... it is guaranteed to die. Four, the main and natural of every base is always covered by every race, and thus relies on poor map awareness. Five, it sucks because it is only 1 unit at a time. You are trying to transfer a 200/200 army from a single dropship. Imagine that for a second. As I mentioned earlier, if lings came out 2 at a time, it would be infinitely more useful. You could harass and deal significant damage. Roaches are too slow and die to small numbers of marine/medivacs or warped in zealots. Infestors MIGHT work, but I would rather use an overlord. Ultralisks rock for it though. If you could put broodlords in it, it would be OP. The concept you still seem to be missing is that using nyduses to drop into someone's main is not the only (or even the main) purpose they can be used for. Transporting armies between expansions, transporting drones between expansions (including islands, as well as cut-off, far away bases you are sacrificing), setting up instant reinforcements as they rally, and setting up exits to launch multi-pronged attacks (that can fluidly reinforce each other depending on which location needs more units) are all just some of the examples of the many uses of nyduses. I am sure there are other possibilities either not listed or not thought of. You can transport your entire army between expansions just as quickly via ground instead of via nydus, and thats free. When it comes to full armies, nydus is trash. For reinforcements with larger slow units (ie: the already mentioned hydra nydus play), they are great if you are able to get them set up, sure... but thats not exactly an ideal unit comp or situation. Okay so let me get your logic straight here. I just want to make sure I understand fully. You think that you can transport units between expansions JUST as quickly across the map as via nydus? Something that takes time vs something that doesn't take time (respectively)? You make no sense at all. Maybe if you're on steppes of war and you are transferring between your nat and 3rd this is true. But imagine you are on a map like tal'darim altar (just as an example... it applies on almost all modern maps). Just to paint a picture here, you're in the bottom left and your terran opponent is in the top right. You have taken a lot of the map including the top left and bottom right expansions and the terran is harassing them with multi-pronged drops. Are you honestly trying to tell me right now that to defend the top left and bottom right expansions you would be just as quick to react and just as fast with unit positioning running your army all the way across the diagonal of the map as opposed to going thru a magic tunnel that literally INSTANTLY pops the units out regardless of distance? Use some basic logic please...
Actually, that's pretty much it. In your example especially, Nydus would be bad since the drop marines would just kill the nydus and mop up whatever units came through. It's always far sneakier and more efficient to transfer units on the ground.
On the ground, on creep, there's no risk of being found, having the nydus sniped mid-unload and having your army split and killed. It's actually far faster if you're moving lings, since they unload SO damn slow. And it is always safer since your opponent doesn't immiedately know what you're doing due to a built in interface alert.
I love how the people making dumb devil-advocate theorycraft statements 1) Don't play zerg at a high level and 2) never post good examples of their theory in practice.
In this whole thread there are what, two? examples of high level nydus work, none from code-A or code-S.
It's a broken mechanic.
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EPT
