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On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass.
Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership.
If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you.
Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game.
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On March 03 2012 17:11 -orb- wrote:
I don't get it
is there any dropship in the game in which units come out more than 1 at a time from? the only one I can think of is the bunker/CC and those are buildings...
So I don't understand why I see so many people commenting that because the units come out 1 at a time all of a sudden it's useless.
Are dropships useless? Shuttles? Medivacs? Warp Prisms? Overlords?
What a pathetic excuse
is there any dropship that can be stopped in its tracks by workers? or by a 1 zealot warp-in? why are you comparing it?
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Zerg sure know how to whine. They all say that this thing is definitly not good, but you see very little experimenting with them. There seems to be a lot of untapped potential there, but every zerg wants to act like idra and just complain instead of trying to solve a problem.
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Why you dont use more carriers and battlecruisers? There seems to be a lot of untapped potential there, but every toss/terra just complain instead of trying to solve a problem. They are so great and powerful units. Obviously redundancy, slow build time and high cost are no excuse.
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On March 03 2012 17:15 catid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 17:11 -orb- wrote:
I don't get it
is there any dropship in the game in which units come out more than 1 at a time from? the only one I can think of is the bunker/CC and those are buildings...
So I don't understand why I see so many people commenting that because the units come out 1 at a time all of a sudden it's useless.
Are dropships useless? Shuttles? Medivacs? Warp Prisms? Overlords?
What a pathetic excuse is there any dropship that can be stopped in its tracks by workers? or by a 1 zealot warp-in? why are you comparing it?
Hey I got an idea, let's take a fragile building and warp it in right in our opponent's vision and hope they're garbage!
This stubborn logic is not the only way to play starcraft.
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On March 03 2012 17:21 HarryHood wrote:
Zerg sure know how to whine. They all say that this thing is definitly not good, but you see very little experimenting with them. There seems to be a lot of untapped potential there, but every zerg wants to act like idra and just complain instead of trying to solve a problem.
On March 03 2012 17:25 Charon1979 wrote:
Why you dont use more carriers and battlecruisers? There seems to be a lot of untapped potential there, but every toss/terra just complain instead of trying to solve a problem. They are so great and powerful units. Obviously redundancy, slow build time and high cost are no excuse.
oh hey what do you know, in professional matches both have been used to great effect
OH HEY WHAT DO YOU KNOW SAME CAN BE SAID FOR NYDUS
nice troll attempt
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Maps too small, cost too high!
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On March 03 2012 17:26 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 17:15 catid wrote:On March 03 2012 17:11 -orb- wrote:
I don't get it
is there any dropship in the game in which units come out more than 1 at a time from? the only one I can think of is the bunker/CC and those are buildings...
So I don't understand why I see so many people commenting that because the units come out 1 at a time all of a sudden it's useless.
Are dropships useless? Shuttles? Medivacs? Warp Prisms? Overlords?
What a pathetic excuse is there any dropship that can be stopped in its tracks by workers? or by a 1 zealot warp-in? why are you comparing it? Hey I got an idea, let's take a fragile building and warp it in right in our opponent's vision and hope they're garbage! This stubborn logic is not the only way to play starcraft.
that's the point people are making, the only use of the nydus is if your opponent is incompetent
it's completely redundant in this 'transport your army across maps' thing because it's faster and more efficient to just move your fucking army there with good creep spread, and it's less vulnerable.
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Not gonna read all the posts so it may have already been said. IMO they have to little health, take to long to pop out, and don't push out units fast enough. I play terran and Iv'e never had anyone have great success against me with an offensive Nydus.
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any decent pro scouting nullifies them, i can't remember the match but saw overlords getting in perfect range to spawn it on edges, it got spawned and killed like 5 times, pro's hear it and look. when pro's look they look in the right spots and find it usually. that and the previous points made imo.
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On March 03 2012 17:21 HarryHood wrote:
Zerg sure know how to whine. They all say that this thing is definitly not good, but you see very little experimenting with them. There seems to be a lot of untapped potential there, but every zerg wants to act like idra and just complain instead of trying to solve a problem.
yeah, that's absolutly a "zerg problem".
That's why we read all over the forums from Terrans in the last weeks: "ghost nerf? awesome! Gonna try some battlecruisers now and get really creative. I'm absolutly gonna change my style from making exactly 3units - marine/medivac/tank - to something supercreative now!" lol
Also I don't know what you are talking about. People use the Nydus, just not superoften. You know, not everything is as versatile and strong as a marine or a stalker, that you will see it all the time.
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The nydus can also be used to retreat units.
Example: Attack with what would look like a hydra all in on toss third, this happens.
You kill the Nexus, but then his colossus pops, pop nydus head meanwhile all this happens and free escape pod for all your expensive units.
Mutas are being used more vs toss and nydus has a huge potential here, cuz of the vision the muta give and how they distract every protoss player.
They are exceptional for baseracing and saving drones that would otherwise die, in doomed expo's u sac.
Hydras own anything protossy, but gets roflowned by colossus, using nydus u can totally circumvent the colossi, while amassing a huge corruptor/ling army.
I actually believe ZvZ metagame is gonna revolve around nydussin all over, from both sides.
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On March 03 2012 17:14 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 11:05 TheRabidDeer wrote:
Nydus would be used more if they pushed units out faster. As it is now, you can be just as effective with overlord speed + drop, and you dont have to spend 100 gas every time you harass (and you get units out faster than the nydus).
If lings came out 2 at a time even, it would be way better because then you could actually get units out to harass. Nydus isn't about getting units into your opponent's base. Yes, drops will do just that. What it's for is moving units across the map instantaneously. The only other comparable ability is recall from the mothership. If you really don't see any benefit to being able to literally INSTANTLY transfer units an infinite distance as opposed to slowly traversing overlords across the map... well then I guess there's just no hope for you. Not you personally... this thread seems to be completely inundated with unimaginative slouches that want to blame minor inconveniences for not using one of the best mechanics in the entire game.
I agree, unless you put any zerglings in the nydus at all. If you get zerglings in the nydus it slows it down sooooo much it reduces the usefullness dramatically. Imo if you get zerglings in the nydus mid as well just run roaches and zerglings across the map because by the time the zerglings finally pop out i bet you, you can run across the map in the same time. Infestors ultras and hydras on the other hand...soooo good
On March 03 2012 17:54 ejozl wrote:
The nydus can also be used to retreat units.
Example: Attack with what would look like a hydra all in on toss third, this happens.
You kill the Nexus, but then his colossus pops, pop nydus head meanwhile all this happens and free escape pod for all your expensive units.
Mutas are being used more vs toss and nydus has a huge potential here, cuz of the vision the muta give and how they distract every protoss player.
They are exceptional for baseracing and saving drones that would otherwise die, in doomed expo's u sac.
Hydras own anything protossy, but gets roflowned by colossus, using nydus u can totally circumvent the colossi, while amassing a huge corruptor/ling army.
I actually believe ZvZ metagame is gonna revolve around nydussin all over, from both sides.
thats what i thought until i had a 200/200 army(about 75% of the supply of army actually attacking) sniping a 3rd on shakuras(he expod up the ramp for some reason) snipe the nexus and run up the ramp to a awating nydus his army is on my tail and while my army runs in circles waiting to run away his army gets in range and instantly kills my nydus and thus i just sacrificed my entire army...
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On March 03 2012 18:34 Falcor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 17:54 ejozl wrote:
The nydus can also be used to retreat units.
Example: Attack with what would look like a hydra all in on toss third, this happens.
You kill the Nexus, but then his colossus pops, pop nydus head meanwhile all this happens and free escape pod for all your expensive units.
Mutas are being used more vs toss and nydus has a huge potential here, cuz of the vision the muta give and how they distract every protoss player.
They are exceptional for baseracing and saving drones that would otherwise die, in doomed expo's u sac.
Hydras own anything protossy, but gets roflowned by colossus, using nydus u can totally circumvent the colossi, while amassing a huge corruptor/ling army.
I actually believe ZvZ metagame is gonna revolve around nydussin all over, from both sides. thats what i thought until i had a 200/200 army(about 75% of the supply of army actually attacking) sniping a 3rd on shakuras(he expod up the ramp for some reason) snipe the nexus and run up the ramp to a awating nydus his army is on my tail and while my army runs in circles waiting to run away his army gets in range and instantly kills my nydus and thus i just sacrificed my entire army...
Yeah, I argued the same in this thread, but people don't believe it until they experience it themselves.
I guess with a maxed army, you should be in a position to do a double nydus retreat, yet even that does not make the attack costefficient, unless you are using pure ultras which can retreat really fast into the nydus. The moment you get roaches, hydras, lings or blings in there, it is just a huge risk.
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I can give you a list of reasons to help you understand why nydus isn't used, unless it's pretty hardcore cheese
-It costs alot if we count it's life. 1-2 lings can kill it, putting him a ltitle far ahead if you were equal
-Workers can kill it, just like lings.
-Only one unit at a time is allowed to get out
-Makes the noise and then it shows the alert.
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TBH, as baller as Nydus worms are, offensive Nydus worms rely solely on your opponent's lack of map awareness. I'd like to see more Nydus-Hydra play, where hydras and roaches can be transported almost instantly between bases and to the front of the opponent's base via Nydus. If you can secure the middle of the map with a roach force, you can nydus outside the front and attack without fear of a counterattack if you are using your Nydus effectively.
The only pitfall is that it requires a very inefficient "4-base Zerg piss away money from your massive income" playstyle that Zergs just don't seem to appreciate as much anymore, especially with more and more Zergs opting to make infestors and shoot for cost efficiency, instead of expanding as aggressively as a Muta-Ling or Roach-Hydra Zerg would.
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1. A handful of probes kill it under the decade it takes to go up
2. Ppl in other games and even regions can hear a nydus pop up
3. Once zerg takes out his army and loses nydus = autogg
4. Costs are astronomically high..it's almost the equivalent of 50 groups of ultras riding broods while spitting corruptors for fun........and a zergling
5. It's probably the ultimate backfire tactic of the game.....and anyone reduced to that tactic in my eyes is a very sad person. A double faced coinflip. Even if someone won..it was by MAJOR flaws from his opponent.... that doesn't exclude how much flipping he did with that coin before making that nydus.
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On March 01 2012 14:35 Spieltor wrote:
There's one good use for it in mid game. plant it in your enemy's third. now you have a place to reinforce from quickly like a proxy pylon which is great for slow ass hydras, and they have to kill a worm + wait for creep to go away to expand.
And to think, you only spent 250/300 to do it! Alternatively, you could spend 100/100 on burrow (an upgrade you will be getting anyway) and burrow a fucking ling. Or hell, since we are on lair tech just have an OL drop creep. Overlords, unlike nydus worms, can't be killed by probes in 10 seconds.
On topic, the reason why I don't like relying on Nyduses is because of the unload speed. You unload lings one at a time and if you use unload all you can't cancel the attack (worm will keep spitting till it dies, hallelujah!). If it, say, unloaded lings 2x faster and there was a way to cancel the unload when the deathball comes marching home it would def be a good harassment option. I don't even want it to be a crazy all in back door thing... I just want to be able to spit 12 lings out of it in less time than it takes a protoss army to run 2 laps around the map. I'm not going to pretend I know anything about what is healthy for this game though, just what I personally would love to see xD
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Its expensive and high risk, which is why more players don't do it. I think we're past the days of sneaking one in your opponents base and winning the game, although if the opportunity is there a player should obviously take it and do huge damage.
I think using it similarly to a proxy pylon is the most viable option. In fact its quite a bit better than a proxy pylon but also more expensive so can't be used quite as offensivly.
Personally I'd like to see the noise removed, you don't get a noise alert when a proxy 2 rax finishes or when units start warping in on a proxy pylon, why does the nydus have a noise, its not like you should even ever let one get up in your base if you sim city properly.
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Because Zerg's supply depots are dropships. I don't blame them for never using this thing.
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EPT
