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In my humble opinion nydus looks like its meant to be for offensive strategies while the majority of zergs prefare a more defensive way of playing.
I wish blizzard would push the nydus into a more defensive role. for instance like this:
-MUCH faster unload ratio
-longer build time (and/or more fragile while being constructed)
If it would be that way i could connect my bases with nyduses and defend expansions against drops or pushes etc. Of course the build time of a nydus worm must be increased then. otherwise sneaking in a nydus in the opponents base would be far too strong if it works. But then again i think for this type of push you already have overlord drop. I think that would be a cool way to give nydus a more defined role while coexisting with overlord drop mechanic.
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On March 03 2012 01:37 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 19:31 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 19:04 Murlox wrote:On March 01 2012 18:41 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote:
A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base
2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp)
3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them
4. Profit.. or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300. And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes. Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple. what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus. In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs) Shocked that nobody called you out on this. Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop.
and how so? I mean, if a Terran can stim up to the OLs in a corner of the base, they can also stim up to the same corner and kill 1 Nydus Worm that has as much HP and armor as 1 OL. And the same is true for blinking stalkers.
And a Nydus doesn't load up fast, it loads up with double the speed it unloads, which means 2 units per second. If you have only 20 units in his base, that's already 10sec.
The only thing that the Nydus is better for in this scenario, is that it is easier to rigthclick your Nydus once, than to shiftclick your OLs and then send them out, but honestly: that's just a question of training. Once you get it right, OL escape is better than nydus escape (unless he has air)
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On March 03 2012 02:12 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 01:37 RampancyTW wrote:On March 01 2012 19:31 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 19:04 Murlox wrote:On March 01 2012 18:41 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote:
A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base
2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp)
3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them
4. Profit.. or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300. And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes. Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple. what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus. In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs) Shocked that nobody called you out on this. Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop. and how so? I mean, if a Terran can stim up to the OLs in a corner of the base, they can also stim up to the same corner and kill 1 Nydus Worm that has as much HP and armor as 1 OL. And the same is true for blinking stalkers. And a Nydus doesn't load up fast, it loads up with double the speed it unloads, which means 2 units per second. If you have only 20 units in his base, that's already 10sec. The only thing that the Nydus is better for in this scenario, is that it is easier to rigthclick your Nydus once, than to shiftclick your OLs and then send them out, but honestly: that's just a question of training. Once you get it right, OL escape is better than nydus escape (unless he has air) They can't pick off the Nydus worm without wading through your units, which should leave you with a cost effective trade if they try. Which makes escape moot, as a cost-effective trade is always good for zerg. I'm also fairly certain the load/unload rate is a little faster than that (and you will have a definite head start as any zerg unit on creep besides Queens are at least as fast as any P/T ground unit).
Edit: Nevermind on the load/unload rates. Still, units in overlords are easily picked off. Units actively fighting back until they enter the worm are not. The Nydus will allow you do either do more damage or save more units every time.
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On March 03 2012 02:29 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 02:12 Big J wrote:On March 03 2012 01:37 RampancyTW wrote:On March 01 2012 19:31 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 19:04 Murlox wrote:On March 01 2012 18:41 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote:
A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base
2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp)
3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them
4. Profit.. or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300. And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes. Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple. what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus. In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs) Shocked that nobody called you out on this. Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop. and how so? I mean, if a Terran can stim up to the OLs in a corner of the base, they can also stim up to the same corner and kill 1 Nydus Worm that has as much HP and armor as 1 OL. And the same is true for blinking stalkers. And a Nydus doesn't load up fast, it loads up with double the speed it unloads, which means 2 units per second. If you have only 20 units in his base, that's already 10sec. The only thing that the Nydus is better for in this scenario, is that it is easier to rigthclick your Nydus once, than to shiftclick your OLs and then send them out, but honestly: that's just a question of training. Once you get it right, OL escape is better than nydus escape (unless he has air) They can't pick off the Nydus worm without wading through your units, which should leave you with a cost effective trade if they try. Which makes escape moot, as a cost-effective trade is always good for zerg. I'm also fairly certain the load/unload rate is a little faster than that (and you will have a definite head start as any zerg unit on creep besides Queens are at least as fast as any P/T ground unit). Edit: Nevermind on the load/unload rates. Still, units in overlords are easily picked off. Units actively fighting back until they enter the worm are not. The Nydus will allow you do either do more damage or save more units every time.
If you can trade efficiently, why would you consider leaving in the first place... Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever.
And let's say it would make sense (what it does not), you can still do the same with OLs... just leave some units behind.
Btw, if you ever used a Nydus against Protoss, you will find out that FFs are pretty good to prevent retreats through Nydus Worms.
I'm really stunned that people actually defend getting drops to get into a base and Nydus to get out of the same base... That's 500/600! For that money, you better win the game with the drop in the first place!
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The nydus' funtion in BW was purely defensive, and was much better at it as it had much faster unit transportation rates. Currently there are a lot of differences between BW and SC2 which basically make them useless for this application:
1) Creep. The main objective of the Nydus Worm was mobility. Assuming you have proper creep spread you should have enough advanced warning and time to simply run your army over in time, especially considering how small most SC2 maps are compared to BW. Due to the slow load/unload rate I wouldn't be surprised to find that it's faster to simply run across the map instead of going back to your nydus at your main, and taking that route. Your zerg army should be present on the map anyways. Most good zergs don't have their army hanging out in their main waiting to be quickly nydused to their distant expo.
2) In SC2 Zerg likes to engage in the open. Engaging from inside your base means that you're in a restricted area which is advantageous to your Terran/Toss opponent. In BW, the metagame was such that, especially for TvZ, Zerg was typically down in supply for a good part of the early and middle game, and expands and defends behind sim-city/lurker/dark swarm/nydus at ramp/nat front until they could get the gas for heavy Ultra/Swarm armies. Due to lurker AoE, Terran would want to be engaging in the open in this instance. Therefore Zerg needed a way to get armies to natural without having to traverse open ground where Terran would have the advantage until heavy Dark Swarm.
So basically a Nydus slowly gets your army to where you don't want it to be. Even assuming you have terrible creep spread so you don't realize your opponent's army is moving out until it's positioned in the choke of your 4th, you'll want to bring your army across and engage from the outside, where you'll have more surface area. If you try to attack from outside your expansion your units will be getting clumped around buildings running out into seige tank/collosus splash. Even for small attacks, in both MU mutas are becoming so common in both vT and vP that you already have the extremely mobile army that annihilates smaller forces.
I have seen some really good nydus play on maps like metalopolis where zerg will go for an attack on the 3rd and 4th, and then pull up the ramp to their 5th to where their nydus was placed and get their whole army away when they otherwise would have been boxed in at the 4th. So there's potential, but I mean, Zerg is so much faster than the other races that it's sort of redundant.
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On March 03 2012 02:53 YumYumGranola wrote:
it's sort of redundant.
Case Closed.
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I personally would love to see them used more like forward pylons for positional gain.
It feels like most Zerg players see the Nydus as an all-in mechanic or they feel like they HAVE to place the nydus as close to the enemy as possible hoping against hope they don't get spotted inside someone's base. It's akin to a protoss player trying to force a probe into someone's base hoping the probe doesn't get spotted and that the pylon in the back of the base doesn't get spotted. But we've seen now from countless games that a simple forward pylon near, but not next to, an enemy base has all kinds of benefits as they're much harder to scout and the gain from reduced travel times and bypassed defensive lines can be quite devastating.
However I would agree the unload times and gas cost might be preventing the Nydus from reaching full potential...
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It's one of the most useful and underused structures but like people are saying it costs too much, and it's not like overlord speed which is a permanent upgrade (worms get killed). People don't get overlord speed enough as it is, but fortunately I think TLO is a pioneer for drop play in modern-day zerg play. Uh, just start using Nydus more tho?
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On March 03 2012 03:34 Warblade! wrote:
I personally would love to see them used more like forward pylons for positional gain.
It feels like most Zerg players see the Nydus as an all-in mechanic or they feel like they HAVE to place the nydus as close to the enemy as possible hoping against hope they don't get spotted inside someone's base. It's akin to a protoss player trying to force a probe into someone's base hoping the probe doesn't get spotted and that the pylon in the back of the base doesn't get spotted. But we've seen now from countless games that a simple forward pylon near, but not next to, an enemy base has all kinds of benefits as they're much harder to scout and the gain from reduced travel times and bypassed defensive lines can be quite devastating.
However I would agree the unload times and gas cost might be preventing the Nydus from reaching full potential...
in the situation you are describing:
the nydus worm (intended for moving units quickly) are somewhere that the zerg can already get to, which means its somewhere on the contested territory on the map. the contested territory (aka middle of the map) is where the zerg normally keeps its army.
lets say the contested territoryis so big that a standard speed unit (zealot, marine, maruader etc.) requires 30 seconds to pass through.
that would mean that most zerg units, being faster, requires slightly more than 20 seconds to pass through when off creep, less than 20 seconds on creep.
so what travel time is there really to reduce? it might very well take 15 seconds to send some army to the closest nydus worm and unload them, so we saved 5 seconds.
in total: as others have said: unless placed where your army normally cannot reach, they are kinda redundant.
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it's really ridiculous a whole ultralisk can pop out, but lings/roaches/hydras come out one at a time. WTF? If an entire ultra can pop out at ones, you would assume 6-8 lings or 4 roaches/hydras could come out.
Combine that with the fact that they are brutally expensive, fragile, good players usually catch them, loud, and cannot be cancelled...well yeah.
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On March 03 2012 03:54 Roblin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 03:34 Warblade! wrote:
I personally would love to see them used more like forward pylons for positional gain.
It feels like most Zerg players see the Nydus as an all-in mechanic or they feel like they HAVE to place the nydus as close to the enemy as possible hoping against hope they don't get spotted inside someone's base. It's akin to a protoss player trying to force a probe into someone's base hoping the probe doesn't get spotted and that the pylon in the back of the base doesn't get spotted. But we've seen now from countless games that a simple forward pylon near, but not next to, an enemy base has all kinds of benefits as they're much harder to scout and the gain from reduced travel times and bypassed defensive lines can be quite devastating.
However I would agree the unload times and gas cost might be preventing the Nydus from reaching full potential...
in the situation you are describing: the nydus worm (intended for moving units quickly) are somewhere that the zerg can already get to, which means its somewhere on the contested territory on the map. the contested territory (aka middle of the map) is where the zerg normally keeps its army. lets say the contested territoryis so big that a standard speed unit (zealot, marine, maruader etc.) requires 30 seconds to pass through. that would mean that most zerg units, being faster, requires slightly more than 20 seconds to pass through when off creep, less than 20 seconds on creep. so what travel time is there really to reduce? it might very well take 15 seconds to send some army to the closest nydus worm and unload them, so we saved 5 seconds. in total: as others have said: unless placed where your army normally cannot reach, they are kinda redundant.
You need to think about the path with units included. I can maybe walk from my base -> a or walk from my base -> b both of which take 30s, or a->b in 30s, but if the direct a->b path is choked off then to get from a->b I have to go through my own base for a 60s travel time. You can imagine this on metal if your opponent controls his middle expansion area and you are by one of the mains.
Not to mention the build time isn't always a factor. For example on metal I can hit the 3rd from the far side (away from opponent's main) with a nydus out in the natural of the empty base nearby. As that happens I can build a nydus near the opponent's natural (again far enough away not to be spotted). As I retreat into the worm from the arriving forces my opponent has 3 options, he either turns back, pushes towards the worm, or splits his forces. If he does 1 or 2 then one of the 2 bases I can hit really quickly are undefended. If he does 3 then unless it's a really well done split (or I don't spot his choice quickly enough) I can pour back out and overwhelm the weaker part of the split.
Also don't overestimate the speed of infestors or roaches. Off creep a speed roach is the same speed as a stalker.
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One thing can be said about nydus for sure; There will be at least 1 new topic like this every month.
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On March 03 2012 02:12 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 01:37 RampancyTW wrote:On March 01 2012 19:31 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 19:04 Murlox wrote:On March 01 2012 18:41 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote:
A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base
2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp)
3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them
4. Profit.. or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300. And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes. Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple. what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus. In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs) Shocked that nobody called you out on this. Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop. and how so? I mean, if a Terran can stim up to the OLs in a corner of the base, they can also stim up to the same corner and kill 1 Nydus Worm that has as much HP and armor as 1 OL. And the same is true for blinking stalkers. And a Nydus doesn't load up fast, it loads up with double the speed it unloads, which means 2 units per second. If you have only 20 units in his base, that's already 10sec. The only thing that the Nydus is better for in this scenario, is that it is easier to rigthclick your Nydus once, than to shiftclick your OLs and then send them out, but honestly: that's just a question of training. Once you get it right, OL escape is better than nydus escape (unless he has air)
No, nydus escape is far superior to overlord escape. Once your units are in the nydus again, they are completely safe, but if they retreat into overlords, they are not. Any ground antiair units can easily still pick off the overlords (they're slow even upgraded) before they are out of range of the edge of the cliff (especially stimmed marines), and any air units can chase and massacre what's left. While your nydus could get sniped before you leave, your units that are trying to go back through it will prevent the enemy from getting into range of the nydus to kill it before you leave, unlike with overlords which have to be above your units instead of behind. Overlords have to sit over the edge of the cliff to pick up and then retreat and are still not safe, leaving them much more vulnerable.
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On March 03 2012 04:39 Fyrewolf wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 02:12 Big J wrote:On March 03 2012 01:37 RampancyTW wrote:On March 01 2012 19:31 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 19:04 Murlox wrote:On March 01 2012 18:41 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote:
A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base
2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp)
3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them
4. Profit.. or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300. And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes. Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple. what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus. In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs) Shocked that nobody called you out on this. Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop. and how so? I mean, if a Terran can stim up to the OLs in a corner of the base, they can also stim up to the same corner and kill 1 Nydus Worm that has as much HP and armor as 1 OL. And the same is true for blinking stalkers. And a Nydus doesn't load up fast, it loads up with double the speed it unloads, which means 2 units per second. If you have only 20 units in his base, that's already 10sec. The only thing that the Nydus is better for in this scenario, is that it is easier to rigthclick your Nydus once, than to shiftclick your OLs and then send them out, but honestly: that's just a question of training. Once you get it right, OL escape is better than nydus escape (unless he has air) No, nydus escape is far superior to overlord escape. Once your units are in the nydus again, they are completely safe, but if they retreat into overlords, they are not. Any ground antiair units can easily still pick off the overlords (they're slow even upgraded) before they are out of range of the edge of the cliff (especially stimmed marines), and any air units can chase and massacre what's left. While your nydus could get sniped before you leave, your units that are trying to go back through it will prevent the enemy from getting into range of the nydus to kill it before you leave, unlike with overlords which have to be above your units instead of behind. Overlords have to sit over the edge of the cliff to pick up and then retreat and are still not safe, leaving them much more vulnerable.
Just don't make the mistake of telling the entire army to move into the worm at once in this situation. Micro groups at a time so the rest fight back while others load in.
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On March 03 2012 02:44 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 02:29 RampancyTW wrote:On March 03 2012 02:12 Big J wrote:On March 03 2012 01:37 RampancyTW wrote:On March 01 2012 19:31 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 19:04 Murlox wrote:On March 01 2012 18:41 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote:
A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base
2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp)
3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them
4. Profit.. or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300. And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes. Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple. what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus. In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs) Shocked that nobody called you out on this. Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop. and how so? I mean, if a Terran can stim up to the OLs in a corner of the base, they can also stim up to the same corner and kill 1 Nydus Worm that has as much HP and armor as 1 OL. And the same is true for blinking stalkers. And a Nydus doesn't load up fast, it loads up with double the speed it unloads, which means 2 units per second. If you have only 20 units in his base, that's already 10sec. The only thing that the Nydus is better for in this scenario, is that it is easier to rigthclick your Nydus once, than to shiftclick your OLs and then send them out, but honestly: that's just a question of training. Once you get it right, OL escape is better than nydus escape (unless he has air) They can't pick off the Nydus worm without wading through your units, which should leave you with a cost effective trade if they try. Which makes escape moot, as a cost-effective trade is always good for zerg. I'm also fairly certain the load/unload rate is a little faster than that (and you will have a definite head start as any zerg unit on creep besides Queens are at least as fast as any P/T ground unit). Edit: Nevermind on the load/unload rates. Still, units in overlords are easily picked off. Units actively fighting back until they enter the worm are not. The Nydus will allow you do either do more damage or save more units every time. If you can trade efficiently, why would you consider leaving in the first place... Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever. And let's say it would make sense (what it does not), you can still do the same with OLs... just leave some units behind. Btw, if you ever used a Nydus against Protoss, you will find out that FFs are pretty good to prevent retreats through Nydus Worms. I'm really stunned that people actually defend getting drops to get into a base and Nydus to get out of the same base... That's 500/600! For that money, you better win the game with the drop in the first place! ...
If the opponent is wading through/around/past your units to pick off the worm, you will get at least one extra volley off on his units that you wouldn't otherwise. What I'm saying is it's OKAY if he picks off the worm, because he's sacrificing a bunch of units to do it.
In regards to leaving units behind to buy time to retreat, why not Nydus, so that you don't have to sacrifice units? You won't have to worry about overlords full of units just hanging out/cut off from the rest of your army that way, and you have the added option of popping them somewhere else way far away.
Sentries are incredibly slow, and should be unable to cast FF until after you're able to react to their presence, assuming you're not awful. If they lead with the stalkers, run away! If they lead with the sentries, pick off the sentries! Pretty straight-forward concept, and any zerg should be happy with throwing away a few roaches for a bunch of sentries.
And finally, you're not spending 600/600 for a single attack and retreat, as you will continue to have drop and Nydus tech throughout the rest of the game. Stop being disingenuous.
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On March 03 2012 04:47 RampancyTW wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 02:44 Big J wrote:On March 03 2012 02:29 RampancyTW wrote:On March 03 2012 02:12 Big J wrote:On March 03 2012 01:37 RampancyTW wrote:On March 01 2012 19:31 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 19:04 Murlox wrote:On March 01 2012 18:41 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote:
A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base
2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp)
3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them
4. Profit.. or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300. And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes. Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple. what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus. In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs) Shocked that nobody called you out on this. Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop. and how so? I mean, if a Terran can stim up to the OLs in a corner of the base, they can also stim up to the same corner and kill 1 Nydus Worm that has as much HP and armor as 1 OL. And the same is true for blinking stalkers. And a Nydus doesn't load up fast, it loads up with double the speed it unloads, which means 2 units per second. If you have only 20 units in his base, that's already 10sec. The only thing that the Nydus is better for in this scenario, is that it is easier to rigthclick your Nydus once, than to shiftclick your OLs and then send them out, but honestly: that's just a question of training. Once you get it right, OL escape is better than nydus escape (unless he has air) They can't pick off the Nydus worm without wading through your units, which should leave you with a cost effective trade if they try. Which makes escape moot, as a cost-effective trade is always good for zerg. I'm also fairly certain the load/unload rate is a little faster than that (and you will have a definite head start as any zerg unit on creep besides Queens are at least as fast as any P/T ground unit). Edit: Nevermind on the load/unload rates. Still, units in overlords are easily picked off. Units actively fighting back until they enter the worm are not. The Nydus will allow you do either do more damage or save more units every time. If you can trade efficiently, why would you consider leaving in the first place... Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever. And let's say it would make sense (what it does not), you can still do the same with OLs... just leave some units behind. Btw, if you ever used a Nydus against Protoss, you will find out that FFs are pretty good to prevent retreats through Nydus Worms. I'm really stunned that people actually defend getting drops to get into a base and Nydus to get out of the same base... That's 500/600! For that money, you better win the game with the drop in the first place! ... If the opponent is wading through/around/past your units to pick off the worm, you will get at least one extra volley off on his units that you wouldn't otherwise. What I'm saying is it's OKAY if he picks off the worm, because he's sacrificing a bunch of units to do it. In regards to leaving units behind to buy time to retreat, why not Nydus, so that you don't have to sacrifice units? You won't have to worry about overlords full of units just hanging out/cut off from the rest of your army that way, and you have the added option of popping them somewhere else way far away. Sentries are incredibly slow, and should be unable to cast FF until after you're able to react to their presence, assuming you're not awful. If they lead with the stalkers, run away! If they lead with the sentries, pick off the sentries! Pretty straight-forward concept, and any zerg should be happy with throwing away a few roaches for a bunch of sentries. And finally, you're not spending 600/600 for a single attack and retreat, as you will continue to have drop and Nydus tech throughout the rest of the game. Stop being disingenuous.
So I get my extra volley and lose everything that has not escaped in the Nydus up to that point. Every opponent is gladly taking that deal. If I pick up, I'm out of there with everything but maybe 1-3OLs lost (assuming I'm not as good as someone like TLO, who makes it out with more usually; also depending on the attack), if I'm lucky those were empty.
Of course sentries should not always get there easily, but the more units you drop, the longer it will take you to load them back up into the nydus, which gives sentries a lot of time to catch up and trap everything that hasn't made it into the nydus yet.
Of course I keep my Network and my drops... Yet I fail to see what the Network can do, what I can't do with my drops already.And I'm absolutly not worried about having my army split, when I'm dropping my opponent and retreating with OLs because his army drove me away. And you know why? Because most of his army is in his main.
Also I fail to see any situation in which you want to do this kind of thing.
When you drop 8-16 supply of units? Try to pick them up and leave, but don't put down a nydus that they can't reach anyway!
When you drop 20-50 supply of units in an early midgame drop attack? Show me that build that has potential to do damage and spare gas for the nydus at that time.
In a huge doom drop? You don't retreat with that kind of thing. That attack is meant to force an army engagement, just not in the position where the opponent is.
In the lategame? (Double) Nydus with Ultras is better, you absolutly don't need to drop in and retreat with a Nydus. You go in with (double) Nydus and go out with (double) Nydus.
I'm somewhat wondering if you have even tried what you are talking about. Terrans don't bring spare medivacs for their drops, Protoss don't rush motherships to retreat with attacks and zergs don't build nyduses to get out of a base in which they came in with OLs.
Go and watch good zerg players dropping. You will see that there is absolutly no need for extra investments for retreats. When they want to get out, they pick up and go out. It's as easy as it sounds.
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You can kill it with workers, that's why.
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On March 03 2012 06:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 04:47 RampancyTW wrote:On March 03 2012 02:44 Big J wrote:On March 03 2012 02:29 RampancyTW wrote:On March 03 2012 02:12 Big J wrote:On March 03 2012 01:37 RampancyTW wrote:On March 01 2012 19:31 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 19:04 Murlox wrote:On March 01 2012 18:41 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote:
A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base
2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp)
3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them
4. Profit.. or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300. And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes. Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple. what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus. In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs) Shocked that nobody called you out on this. Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop. and how so? I mean, if a Terran can stim up to the OLs in a corner of the base, they can also stim up to the same corner and kill 1 Nydus Worm that has as much HP and armor as 1 OL. And the same is true for blinking stalkers. And a Nydus doesn't load up fast, it loads up with double the speed it unloads, which means 2 units per second. If you have only 20 units in his base, that's already 10sec. The only thing that the Nydus is better for in this scenario, is that it is easier to rigthclick your Nydus once, than to shiftclick your OLs and then send them out, but honestly: that's just a question of training. Once you get it right, OL escape is better than nydus escape (unless he has air) They can't pick off the Nydus worm without wading through your units, which should leave you with a cost effective trade if they try. Which makes escape moot, as a cost-effective trade is always good for zerg. I'm also fairly certain the load/unload rate is a little faster than that (and you will have a definite head start as any zerg unit on creep besides Queens are at least as fast as any P/T ground unit). Edit: Nevermind on the load/unload rates. Still, units in overlords are easily picked off. Units actively fighting back until they enter the worm are not. The Nydus will allow you do either do more damage or save more units every time. If you can trade efficiently, why would you consider leaving in the first place... Sorry, but that makes no sense whatsoever. And let's say it would make sense (what it does not), you can still do the same with OLs... just leave some units behind. Btw, if you ever used a Nydus against Protoss, you will find out that FFs are pretty good to prevent retreats through Nydus Worms. I'm really stunned that people actually defend getting drops to get into a base and Nydus to get out of the same base... That's 500/600! For that money, you better win the game with the drop in the first place! ... If the opponent is wading through/around/past your units to pick off the worm, you will get at least one extra volley off on his units that you wouldn't otherwise. What I'm saying is it's OKAY if he picks off the worm, because he's sacrificing a bunch of units to do it. In regards to leaving units behind to buy time to retreat, why not Nydus, so that you don't have to sacrifice units? You won't have to worry about overlords full of units just hanging out/cut off from the rest of your army that way, and you have the added option of popping them somewhere else way far away. Sentries are incredibly slow, and should be unable to cast FF until after you're able to react to their presence, assuming you're not awful. If they lead with the stalkers, run away! If they lead with the sentries, pick off the sentries! Pretty straight-forward concept, and any zerg should be happy with throwing away a few roaches for a bunch of sentries. And finally, you're not spending 600/600 for a single attack and retreat, as you will continue to have drop and Nydus tech throughout the rest of the game. Stop being disingenuous. So I get my extra volley and lose everything that has not escaped in the Nydus up to that point. Every opponent is gladly taking that deal. If I pick up, I'm out of there with everything but maybe 1-3OLs lost (assuming I'm not as good as someone like TLO, who makes it out with more usually; also depending on the attack), if I'm lucky those were empty. Of course sentries should not always get there easily, but the more units you drop, the longer it will take you to load them back up into the nydus, which gives sentries a lot of time to catch up and trap everything that hasn't made it into the nydus yet. Of course I keep my Network and my drops... Yet I fail to see what the Network can do, what I can't do with my drops already.And I'm absolutly not worried about having my army split, when I'm dropping my opponent and retreating with OLs because his army drove me away. And you know why? Because most of his army is in his main. Also I fail to see any situation in which you want to do this kind of thing. When you drop 8-16 supply of units? Try to pick them up and leave, but don't put down a nydus that they can't reach anyway! When you drop 20-50 supply of units in an early midgame drop attack? Show me that build that has potential to do damage and spare gas for the nydus at that time. In a huge doom drop? You don't retreat with that kind of thing. That attack is meant to force an army engagement, just not in the position where the opponent is. In the lategame? (Double) Nydus with Ultras is better, you absolutly don't need to drop in and retreat with a Nydus. You go in with (double) Nydus and go out with (double) Nydus. I'm somewhat wondering if you have even tried what you are talking about. Terrans don't bring spare medivacs for their drops, Protoss don't rush motherships to retreat with attacks and zergs don't build nyduses to get out of a base in which they came in with OLs. Go and watch good zerg players dropping. You will see that there is absolutly no need for extra investments for retreats. When they want to get out, they pick up and go out. It's as easy as it sounds.
For what it's worth I support Nydus use a lot, but still agree with you on this. Using Nydus to retreat a drop makes no sense most of the time.
However, using Nydus to REINFORCE a drop does. With a doom drop there's potentially a big risk in your opponent sniping the OLs before they drop or attacking in the travel time of the OLs. With a smaller drop + nydus you can drop and secure passage for your units (I'd recommend the lings in the ols to make the nydus unload quickly). Yet at the same time your initial risk is much lower. If the OLs get sniped or the army there is too big/too prepared you've only committed a small bit of your army + 100/100 for the worm and can just pack it up and leave. The only retreating advantage of this is you can retreat to defend your base in a base trade situation must faster than hopping back in the OLs.
So essentially the idea would be that you are prepared to doom drop, but you start it with an initial harass. If you drop and the worm finishes before he gets back you have a doom drop effectively. If the worm is killed it was a casualty, but your harass still worked maybe. If you drop and immediately see the worm isn't going to work you don't build it and the harass failed and you probably turn around immediately. You say you would never do this or that his army would get back in time, but no. You do this when you're pushing for an attack and want to also harass. If he lets the worm finish your attacking army can pull back and hit the main faster than he can reposition.
Also a nydus to retreat when you have some room to move back does make sense sometimes. Usually when you can gain a temporary speed advantage, but not one enough to cross the map. So if he has stalkers vs hydras, but he's used FFs, or you have some fungals, but his army is faster overall and will catch up eventually.
Or if you are cut off from retreat I suppose. Say you attacked into the 3rd on metal away from his natural and he came up from more of the middle. With quick nydus in the nearby empty main you might be able to save 3-4 roaches to pay for the worm.
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Nydus networks are soooo underused. I believe it's going to eventually be extremely game breaking in the late game and perhaps even imbalanced. People are saying nydus networks are worthless? are you kidding me? they're expensive? When you're banking 3k mins 3k gas and your opponent is just turtling you should be utilizing the nydus network. Workers can stop them right? Have you ever used 4 nydus networks at a time? I'd like to see workers stop 4 that are emerging at the same time, your opponent is forced to move his army. I say nydus is 4th base, then nydus his main, and then nydus his front, and then back in the 4th base... You can do 2 nydus in the 4th, and then 2 nydus in his third. Maybe 2 nydus in the 4th, 1 in the main, and then 1 in the third. it's going to take insanely strategic defense to stop that kind of breach. To me, nydus networks will be the answer to late game zerg.
Anyone who is suggesting a nydus worm buff is either crazy, or have never even tried to utilize nydus worms at all. summoning 4th nydus allows for units to be streamed 4 at a time. That to me is pretty fast and for anyone saying that the unload should be faster would be breaking the game
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On March 03 2012 07:32 Avril_Lavigne wrote:
Nydus networks are soooo underused. I believe it's going to eventually be extremely game breaking in the late game and perhaps even imbalanced. People are saying nydus networks are worthless? are you kidding me? they're expensive? When you're banking 3k mins 3k gas and your opponent is just turtling you should be utilizing the nydus network. Workers can stop them right? Have you ever used 4 nydus networks at a time? I'd like to see workers stop 4 that are emerging at the same time, your opponent is forced to move his army. I say nydus is 4th base, then nydus his main, and then nydus his front, and then back in the 4th base... You can do 2 nydus in the 4th, and then 2 nydus in his third. Maybe 2 nydus in the 4th, 1 in the main, and then 1 in the third. it's going to take insanely strategic defense to stop that kind of breach. To me, nydus networks will be the answer to late game zerg.
Anyone who is suggesting a nydus worm buff is either crazy, or have never even tried to utilize nydus worms at all. summoning 4th nydus allows for units to be streamed 4 at a time. That to me is pretty fast and for anyone saying that the unload should be faster would be breaking the game
advocating spending 1.2k gas to get units into your opponent's base, seriously? I mean it might be a good idea in a 4v4..
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EPT
