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On March 02 2012 09:11 avilo wrote:
Also, another thing most Zergs have not done yet is use nydus worms with a single queen inside of it to spread creep to expansions on the map and forward locations. It's an example of a very powerful use for nydus worms that has not caught on yet.
A queen in an overlord is a lot more cost effective for that.
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On March 02 2012 11:28 TBone- wrote:
Because zergs are convinced they shouldn't push until they get broodlords.
more like, because zergs cant go into someone's main and kill them, T or P, without all inning before brood lords. How about those "assault" units roach and ultra? roach got nerfed to 2 supply and 1 armor instead of its original reverse position, and ultra blows hard in anything but perfect circumstances.
On March 02 2012 15:11 RmoteCntrld wrote:
Why would you use Nydus worms to get places quicker when creeps is in the game and servers far more of a purpose than a Nydus that just hit me.
the one reasonable response would be that nydus can connect areas where creep is getting taken out around it, like fourth bases on antiga.
On March 02 2012 11:12 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 11:02 catid wrote:On March 02 2012 10:29 Logo wrote:On March 02 2012 10:22 catid wrote:On March 02 2012 09:58 Logo wrote:Prepare to be scienced bitches... (ok that might be a bit dramatic). Replay analysis of how a pro could have won a high profile game safely with Nydus Worm:If you've watched Winter Assembly or don't care about spoilers I really appreciate you reading this, it's a detailed description of how Nydus could have changed a game.+ Show Spoiler [Winter Assembly Spoilers] +I'll be looking at Game #4 of the Winter Assembly Finals http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/portals.php?show=news&news_id=869070Skip ahead to 10:30 and lets look at Stephano's situation. -Spire just finished -He's making 7 mutalisks -He has 1k/160 in the bank and he invests 100 of that into air upgrade 1 + floats gas + starts melee upgrade 1 later. It's entirely reasonable to say at this point Stephano should have 150/200 spare at this point by not floating minerals (a mistake he made) and his ability to defend would be unchanged (as he spends gas on a 2nd upgrade before the next muta he makes is completed, so in total he spent 250 gas on stuff that doesn't help until much much later). Thus at this point, 10:30 exactly. Stephano could make a Nydus Worm with absolutely no risk of anything different happening over the next 50s compared to what he chose to do (air attack +1). Much later his air attack would be delayed, but I'm going to show how much he could have gained via Nydus play. Now lets go ahead to 11:10. Where we have this: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/0NT0A.jpg) Why is this important, lets look at our situation. - Nydus canal would be done instantly at this moment if build when air attack was researched..
- Polt has a 3rd that's open, but defended.
- Stephano has just moved mutalisks in and the base is relatively undefended
- Polt's army is far away from the base. How far?
- There's 6s before Polt moves any marines
- The closest marines are moved back at 11:36 and arrive at the mineral line at 11:50 that's 14 seconds.
- The area centered on the picture is about 4 seconds further away than that.
That's a total (not counting reaction time) of 18seconds.
That means Polt would have 2 seconds to react to even have a non-0% chance to get to worm before it emerged, which is a far cry from the 6s it took him to react and it assumes he runs right for the worm rather than to protect his SCVs (which Stephano can follow with mutas if Polt moves by rather than a-moves). His 13 marines available dealing 10.5dps would take 2 seconds to kill the worm which is enough time for 4 banelings to emerge. Yet this assumes he stims his marines a 2nd time giving them only 25hp to survive the mutalisks that could be there. Otherwise he has 4s to get units out free of charge. Of course this ignores any marines that die from the 7 mutalisks that can attack them (each muta volley would just kill one marine outright I believe if he doesn't re-stim). Likewise he also has to choose between protecting the SCVs, or attacking the worm unless he pulls the SCVs TO the worm which he could do, but that puts them right in the line of fire for the mutas and since we know the worm is almost sure to survive it's a big risk. Now SCV's do 2.67dps to the worm so their dps isn't that significant and if they're pulled immediately to the worm there are 7 mutas there getting to take free shots on them for 14s (when the marines arrive). Even if the worm was killed in this way the SCV loss is a huge hit to Polt well worth the worm's cost (and canal, but Stephano gets to keep that regardless). We know pulling the SCVs to hit the worm is a huge risk as Stephano because Stephano has banelings. If they are first out of the worm they will detonate and annhilate large scv #s, something that would be a huge blow to Polt. Additional army is, at this point, 15-20s away and there's only a minimal force on the 3rd that Stephano can scout/spot. Unless you sac the SCVs, this worm is completing. Even that nearby tank is about 12s away + 4s unsiege and if it moves before the marines arrive it's vulnerable to the mutas (plus the tank costs more than the worm). If Stephano put his canal at his nat (towards the ramp down) lings could be 5s away from both the nydus AND Polt's 3rd by standing near the Xel'Naga, which means that up until 5s left on the worm Stephano can threaten the 3rd if additional forces are pulled back to prepare for the worm finishing. Since those marines are about 25s-30s away from the nydus worm, that gives Stephano a huge timing advantage. Polt has to pull them RIGHT AWAY if he wants to defend a full on nydus in his base, but Stephano can wait 15s to decide if he wants to hit the 3rd or hit the main. The tanks are there, but keep in mind that all Stephano needs to do to win is kill the marines really (Polt would be defenseless vs the mutalisks). None of them can get there in time to kill the worm before units emerge either with 4s to unsiege and their slow movespeed. Stephano has enough units at this point to kill Polt so long as polt can't make use of a defensive position (sieged up siege tanks). Since we're forcing Polt to pull back to the main if we hit there, his tanks won't be sieged for most of the battle. What if Polt's units were better positioned? Well what would that look like. Would it be any better to Stephano's option of pulling his muta's back and hitting else where sans worm? I fail to see some magic configuration that Polt should have known to do that would be well equipped to handle this attack + the threat of a full frontal attack. Not to mention if Stephano was planning on this type of strategy he could easily scout the unit positioning with a ling poke ahead of time. By seeing the # of marines gathered near the 3rd + the fact that Polt has a 3rd, he would know the main is relatively undefended. Now you might also say, "It's a risk! What about late game" Well we know Stephano likes Ultras late game in many situations. Shakuras may not be the best map for late game nydus play, but we do know it's something that can be effective . So maybe he is delaying air attack or skipping it, but so long as he protects that canal he's setup late game to make better use of Ultras. So he can deal tons of damage now or if it doesn't pan out is setup to do well later with a nydus up. So lets recap:- Stephano could have made a Nydus Canal at no-risk to his immediate safety.
- Stephano could have made a worm right as he harasses with mutalisks with 0 risk to the mutas.
- Polt would have have almost 0 chance to kill the worm before at least 2-4 units emerge and have time to attack. With his actual reaction time it would be at least 12 units out of the worm before he even starts attacking it.
- Stephano had banelings that could almost instantly remove all threats on the worm, or at least force them to stop attacking the worm (never mind the mutas themselves)
- Without sieged siege tanks Stephano's army is superior.
- Polt's additional reinforcements aren't in range of the worm until 5-10s after it completes
- If Polt pulls back all units his 3rd is completely open (as is his natural). Yet Stephano doesn't need to commit to hitting the main vs 3rd until 5s before the worm finishes (10s after Polt has to pull back).
Conclusion/TL;DRThus I contend that I've shown a real world example with PRO players where a Nydus Worm would have offered a UNIQUE chance to win or gain an advantage that no other thing in the Zerg army could have done. This is the finals game of a big tournament that could have been won with a Nydus. I don't think this is a unique situation either and I'd love to go through other games if people want me to. This isn't some convuluted situation either. Any time a T builds in this manner with a more reactionary muta defense, they're open to this type of timing attack, it's not something that happens every game (map matters a lot as other factors). Nor does it require much setup, the only demand is you delay air attack and instead make the canal. I also saw this coming from awhile away as I watched the game. I was practically yelling (aka typing to a friend in chat) about how this game could have been wrapped up by the safe construction of a Nydus Canal. And for what it's worth I play Zerg. It's easy to say these kind of things with hindsight. When you're playing a Muta/Baneling/Zergling style you're relying on a small stockpile of gas to immediately morph Banelings to deal with an attack.. if you build the nydus+worm you're really gas-starved and make yourself extremely vulnerable to an attack. Stephano also has no idea how many Marines Polt has or where they are.. and that number will vary depending on Polt's build. If he did have a group of marines in his main (and most Terrans will) the nydus is completely useless. Even if it finishes it's spitting out Zerglings/Banelings one by one which are just going to get cleaned up by a small group of Marines anyways. Hell I don't even see how having a nydus in Polt's base would be of any use when he has his army relatively close to his mainn. There's no hindsight needed. You didn't even read my post in a way to comprehend it as I address ALL your issues. Maybe rather than jumping to conclusions and making big assumptions you should slow down and read with an open mind. + Show Spoiler +Stephano saw the 3rd before investing in the air upgrade. He spend money on the attack upgrades which are a longer vulnerability than the worm. The 3rd tells you something about the marine count. He had a delayed 3rd so his eye was on aggression anyways. The marines WEREN'T THERE AND COULDN'T HAVE BEEN THERE. 13 marines under attack by 7 mutas and an additional ling/bling every .5s are marines that aren't going to live long.
Polts army was only stronger because of sieged siege tanks and superior positioning. Look at how Stephano nearly overruns the 3rd immediately after the muta harass. And if Polt concentrates all his units in one position in his base the entire rest of his base is open to muta harass or ling attacks. Even if it is 'hindsight' uh... so fucking what. That's the point of replay analysis. You look at things in hindsight, then learn lessons and apply them forward. The popular opinion is that Nydus Worms are useless, I showed a great example of them having a unique use, thus they aren't useless and can win games, even pro ones. Your post is also full of spoilers. TL removed its no spoilers policy. Go open up the replay and look at the game again, Polt has 4 (almost 5) tanks and 6 barracks (4 reactored..) about to churn out marines. He's just going to reposition some Tanks, bring some Marines back and clean up the attack no problem with a ton of reinforcements. There's no discussion to this. Your point about drawing the army away so you can attack somewhere else is completely unrelated.. the mutalisks already did this. Ah that's right I forgot it applies to the SC2 General Forum as well. The tanks are out of position (I addressed that), they would be there in the same time as the 2nd set of marines and THEN would need to siege up so by time they siege the fight could already be over. About to churn out marines is a big difference from having marines, I'm not sure how you expect them to change the fight when they would come out 15-25s after the worm finishes (other than the 3 in production from the 1st 2 raxes). The mutas draw 13 marines away, a Nydus has to draw an entire army (because an entire army may come out of that worm). In that game especially even drawing 1 extra siege tank (the one on high ground guarding the 3rd) would have meant the 3rd CC would have fallen (it barely lived with that siege tank there as is) which pays for the Nydus worm + canal and is a huge game changer. Show nested quote +The 'hindsight' thing is referring to the fact that using the Nydus in these situations is just hoping he isn't prepraed. E.g. putting a Nydus down in ZvP in Protoss' main is just hoping he doesn't watch the minimap enough. It's not really reliable. This is different than dropping it naked in a main. What mistake did Polt make that left him vulnerable to this kind of harass? With putting one naked in a main you are hoping its not spotted (as in your opponent makes a mistake). With this style of Nydus use, it doesn't make a difference. You place it where he 100% sees it and you don't care at all because he can't do anything about it. That's like the biggest part of my post and why I did a specific and detailed analysis. USED CORRECTLY you aren't relying on an enemy mistake to make a Nydus work. Sure if Polt responds perfectly the Nydus might not win outright, but it's almost certainly creating an advantaged situation for Stephano or one that gives him at least one cost effective fight. If nothing else the simple fact that the worm has to be targeted over the mutas can be enough to pay for the Worm and some of the network. On the other side as Stephano you can see this situation because the 3rd was there and you know Polt made a factory (the hellions). If Stephano didn't have this information then I agree, you make the +1 air attack or just an extra mutalisk. Yet that's not the situation and the fact that Stephano saw all this is WHY I chose this game.
Situational.
Yes, a nydus has the possibility of spitting out an entire army. That doesn't mean it happens. you said that mutas draw 13 marines while a nydus draws a wholea rmy? things dont exit the nydus worm like the nydus from bw. then ou might have a case. mass unit egress with auto spread attained. Instead they come out in serial fashion, one by one. not only can 13 stimming marines clean that up, they can snipe the nydus too, and now your entire (potential) army is stuck in the network and has to re-exit in your base with ZERO positioning.
you call that good planning, I call that a tasty treat for terran. Zerg isn't nearly prolific or long lived enough to send part of its army to do damage in a terran base while its main army attacks enemies. it needs all its army to attack because every single unit matters, not like terran that can drop a suicide medivac full to snipe a hatch and just stay sieged and prevent any attack.
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I believe the main Nydus building is 150/200 and the cost to spawn an additional Worm is a further 100/100. The minerals are nothing but 200 gas can be a bit painful to spend for a 'maybe' situation like the defensive reasons
This is the reason, minerals do not matter, but a 100 gas does. If you are way ahead maybe it's viable, but if zergs are massing on bases it means your oponent is turtleing up and good luck finding a weak spot for your soundmaschine.
Equal bases or econ, you will need the gas for your army or it's upgrades.
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i think it's kind of an over-generalized assumption that every major nydus use is to sneak one into the main (ie. "it's bad because workers can kill it"), but i think the point of the OP was to facilitate exploration into other practical uses aside from nydussing the main
at the Gold league level, i remember playing against a zerg player who used offensive nydus like forward pylons for rapid creep spread and for rapid field deployment of ultralisks, as well as counter attacks. it was more annoying than dealing with muta harass when i wanted to push out from my base. I remember thinking "wow, someone actually using nydus in a smart fashion." granted, at the gold level i let my opponent get an early 3rd and didn't provide enough counter pressure, but i'd love to see pros with macro styles that capitalize on early 3rd/4ths start employing forward nydus worms for overall map presence
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On March 02 2012 16:36 Spieltor wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 11:28 TBone- wrote:
Because zergs are convinced they shouldn't push until they get broodlords. more like, because zergs cant go into someone's main and kill them, T or P, without all inning before brood lords. How about those "assault" units roach and ultra? roach got nerfed to 2 supply and 1 armor instead of its original reverse position, and ultra blows hard in anything but perfect circumstances. Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 15:11 RmoteCntrld wrote:
Why would you use Nydus worms to get places quicker when creeps is in the game and servers far more of a purpose than a Nydus that just hit me. the one reasonable response would be that nydus can connect areas where creep is getting taken out around it, like fourth bases on antiga. Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 11:12 Logo wrote:On March 02 2012 11:02 catid wrote:On March 02 2012 10:29 Logo wrote:On March 02 2012 10:22 catid wrote:On March 02 2012 09:58 Logo wrote:Prepare to be scienced bitches... (ok that might be a bit dramatic). Replay analysis of how a pro could have won a high profile game safely with Nydus Worm:If you've watched Winter Assembly or don't care about spoilers I really appreciate you reading this, it's a detailed description of how Nydus could have changed a game.+ Show Spoiler [Winter Assembly Spoilers] +I'll be looking at Game #4 of the Winter Assembly Finals http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/portals.php?show=news&news_id=869070Skip ahead to 10:30 and lets look at Stephano's situation. -Spire just finished -He's making 7 mutalisks -He has 1k/160 in the bank and he invests 100 of that into air upgrade 1 + floats gas + starts melee upgrade 1 later. It's entirely reasonable to say at this point Stephano should have 150/200 spare at this point by not floating minerals (a mistake he made) and his ability to defend would be unchanged (as he spends gas on a 2nd upgrade before the next muta he makes is completed, so in total he spent 250 gas on stuff that doesn't help until much much later). Thus at this point, 10:30 exactly. Stephano could make a Nydus Worm with absolutely no risk of anything different happening over the next 50s compared to what he chose to do (air attack +1). Much later his air attack would be delayed, but I'm going to show how much he could have gained via Nydus play. Now lets go ahead to 11:10. Where we have this: Why is this important, lets look at our situation. - Nydus canal would be done instantly at this moment if build when air attack was researched..
- Polt has a 3rd that's open, but defended.
- Stephano has just moved mutalisks in and the base is relatively undefended
- Polt's army is far away from the base. How far?
- There's 6s before Polt moves any marines
- The closest marines are moved back at 11:36 and arrive at the mineral line at 11:50 that's 14 seconds.
- The area centered on the picture is about 4 seconds further away than that.
That's a total (not counting reaction time) of 18seconds.
That means Polt would have 2 seconds to react to even have a non-0% chance to get to worm before it emerged, which is a far cry from the 6s it took him to react and it assumes he runs right for the worm rather than to protect his SCVs (which Stephano can follow with mutas if Polt moves by rather than a-moves). His 13 marines available dealing 10.5dps would take 2 seconds to kill the worm which is enough time for 4 banelings to emerge. Yet this assumes he stims his marines a 2nd time giving them only 25hp to survive the mutalisks that could be there. Otherwise he has 4s to get units out free of charge. Of course this ignores any marines that die from the 7 mutalisks that can attack them (each muta volley would just kill one marine outright I believe if he doesn't re-stim). Likewise he also has to choose between protecting the SCVs, or attacking the worm unless he pulls the SCVs TO the worm which he could do, but that puts them right in the line of fire for the mutas and since we know the worm is almost sure to survive it's a big risk. Now SCV's do 2.67dps to the worm so their dps isn't that significant and if they're pulled immediately to the worm there are 7 mutas there getting to take free shots on them for 14s (when the marines arrive). Even if the worm was killed in this way the SCV loss is a huge hit to Polt well worth the worm's cost (and canal, but Stephano gets to keep that regardless). We know pulling the SCVs to hit the worm is a huge risk as Stephano because Stephano has banelings. If they are first out of the worm they will detonate and annhilate large scv #s, something that would be a huge blow to Polt. Additional army is, at this point, 15-20s away and there's only a minimal force on the 3rd that Stephano can scout/spot. Unless you sac the SCVs, this worm is completing. Even that nearby tank is about 12s away + 4s unsiege and if it moves before the marines arrive it's vulnerable to the mutas (plus the tank costs more than the worm). If Stephano put his canal at his nat (towards the ramp down) lings could be 5s away from both the nydus AND Polt's 3rd by standing near the Xel'Naga, which means that up until 5s left on the worm Stephano can threaten the 3rd if additional forces are pulled back to prepare for the worm finishing. Since those marines are about 25s-30s away from the nydus worm, that gives Stephano a huge timing advantage. Polt has to pull them RIGHT AWAY if he wants to defend a full on nydus in his base, but Stephano can wait 15s to decide if he wants to hit the 3rd or hit the main. The tanks are there, but keep in mind that all Stephano needs to do to win is kill the marines really (Polt would be defenseless vs the mutalisks). None of them can get there in time to kill the worm before units emerge either with 4s to unsiege and their slow movespeed. Stephano has enough units at this point to kill Polt so long as polt can't make use of a defensive position (sieged up siege tanks). Since we're forcing Polt to pull back to the main if we hit there, his tanks won't be sieged for most of the battle. What if Polt's units were better positioned? Well what would that look like. Would it be any better to Stephano's option of pulling his muta's back and hitting else where sans worm? I fail to see some magic configuration that Polt should have known to do that would be well equipped to handle this attack + the threat of a full frontal attack. Not to mention if Stephano was planning on this type of strategy he could easily scout the unit positioning with a ling poke ahead of time. By seeing the # of marines gathered near the 3rd + the fact that Polt has a 3rd, he would know the main is relatively undefended. Now you might also say, "It's a risk! What about late game" Well we know Stephano likes Ultras late game in many situations. Shakuras may not be the best map for late game nydus play, but we do know it's something that can be effective . So maybe he is delaying air attack or skipping it, but so long as he protects that canal he's setup late game to make better use of Ultras. So he can deal tons of damage now or if it doesn't pan out is setup to do well later with a nydus up. So lets recap:- Stephano could have made a Nydus Canal at no-risk to his immediate safety.
- Stephano could have made a worm right as he harasses with mutalisks with 0 risk to the mutas.
- Polt would have have almost 0 chance to kill the worm before at least 2-4 units emerge and have time to attack. With his actual reaction time it would be at least 12 units out of the worm before he even starts attacking it.
- Stephano had banelings that could almost instantly remove all threats on the worm, or at least force them to stop attacking the worm (never mind the mutas themselves)
- Without sieged siege tanks Stephano's army is superior.
- Polt's additional reinforcements aren't in range of the worm until 5-10s after it completes
- If Polt pulls back all units his 3rd is completely open (as is his natural). Yet Stephano doesn't need to commit to hitting the main vs 3rd until 5s before the worm finishes (10s after Polt has to pull back).
Conclusion/TL;DRThus I contend that I've shown a real world example with PRO players where a Nydus Worm would have offered a UNIQUE chance to win or gain an advantage that no other thing in the Zerg army could have done. This is the finals game of a big tournament that could have been won with a Nydus. I don't think this is a unique situation either and I'd love to go through other games if people want me to. This isn't some convuluted situation either. Any time a T builds in this manner with a more reactionary muta defense, they're open to this type of timing attack, it's not something that happens every game (map matters a lot as other factors). Nor does it require much setup, the only demand is you delay air attack and instead make the canal. I also saw this coming from awhile away as I watched the game. I was practically yelling (aka typing to a friend in chat) about how this game could have been wrapped up by the safe construction of a Nydus Canal. And for what it's worth I play Zerg. It's easy to say these kind of things with hindsight. When you're playing a Muta/Baneling/Zergling style you're relying on a small stockpile of gas to immediately morph Banelings to deal with an attack.. if you build the nydus+worm you're really gas-starved and make yourself extremely vulnerable to an attack. Stephano also has no idea how many Marines Polt has or where they are.. and that number will vary depending on Polt's build. If he did have a group of marines in his main (and most Terrans will) the nydus is completely useless. Even if it finishes it's spitting out Zerglings/Banelings one by one which are just going to get cleaned up by a small group of Marines anyways. Hell I don't even see how having a nydus in Polt's base would be of any use when he has his army relatively close to his mainn. There's no hindsight needed. You didn't even read my post in a way to comprehend it as I address ALL your issues. Maybe rather than jumping to conclusions and making big assumptions you should slow down and read with an open mind. + Show Spoiler +Stephano saw the 3rd before investing in the air upgrade. He spend money on the attack upgrades which are a longer vulnerability than the worm. The 3rd tells you something about the marine count. He had a delayed 3rd so his eye was on aggression anyways. The marines WEREN'T THERE AND COULDN'T HAVE BEEN THERE. 13 marines under attack by 7 mutas and an additional ling/bling every .5s are marines that aren't going to live long.
Polts army was only stronger because of sieged siege tanks and superior positioning. Look at how Stephano nearly overruns the 3rd immediately after the muta harass. And if Polt concentrates all his units in one position in his base the entire rest of his base is open to muta harass or ling attacks. Even if it is 'hindsight' uh... so fucking what. That's the point of replay analysis. You look at things in hindsight, then learn lessons and apply them forward. The popular opinion is that Nydus Worms are useless, I showed a great example of them having a unique use, thus they aren't useless and can win games, even pro ones. Your post is also full of spoilers. TL removed its no spoilers policy. Go open up the replay and look at the game again, Polt has 4 (almost 5) tanks and 6 barracks (4 reactored..) about to churn out marines. He's just going to reposition some Tanks, bring some Marines back and clean up the attack no problem with a ton of reinforcements. There's no discussion to this. Your point about drawing the army away so you can attack somewhere else is completely unrelated.. the mutalisks already did this. Ah that's right I forgot it applies to the SC2 General Forum as well. The tanks are out of position (I addressed that), they would be there in the same time as the 2nd set of marines and THEN would need to siege up so by time they siege the fight could already be over. About to churn out marines is a big difference from having marines, I'm not sure how you expect them to change the fight when they would come out 15-25s after the worm finishes (other than the 3 in production from the 1st 2 raxes). The mutas draw 13 marines away, a Nydus has to draw an entire army (because an entire army may come out of that worm). In that game especially even drawing 1 extra siege tank (the one on high ground guarding the 3rd) would have meant the 3rd CC would have fallen (it barely lived with that siege tank there as is) which pays for the Nydus worm + canal and is a huge game changer. The 'hindsight' thing is referring to the fact that using the Nydus in these situations is just hoping he isn't prepraed. E.g. putting a Nydus down in ZvP in Protoss' main is just hoping he doesn't watch the minimap enough. It's not really reliable. This is different than dropping it naked in a main. What mistake did Polt make that left him vulnerable to this kind of harass? With putting one naked in a main you are hoping its not spotted (as in your opponent makes a mistake). With this style of Nydus use, it doesn't make a difference. You place it where he 100% sees it and you don't care at all because he can't do anything about it. That's like the biggest part of my post and why I did a specific and detailed analysis. USED CORRECTLY you aren't relying on an enemy mistake to make a Nydus work. Sure if Polt responds perfectly the Nydus might not win outright, but it's almost certainly creating an advantaged situation for Stephano or one that gives him at least one cost effective fight. If nothing else the simple fact that the worm has to be targeted over the mutas can be enough to pay for the Worm and some of the network. On the other side as Stephano you can see this situation because the 3rd was there and you know Polt made a factory (the hellions). If Stephano didn't have this information then I agree, you make the +1 air attack or just an extra mutalisk. Yet that's not the situation and the fact that Stephano saw all this is WHY I chose this game. Situational. Yes, a nydus has the possibility of spitting out an entire army. That doesn't mean it happens. you said that mutas draw 13 marines while a nydus draws a wholea rmy? things dont exit the nydus worm like the nydus from bw. then ou might have a case. mass unit egress with auto spread attained. Instead they come out in serial fashion, one by one. not only can 13 stimming marines clean that up, they can snipe the nydus too, and now your entire (potential) army is stuck in the network and has to re-exit in your base with ZERO positioning. you call that good planning, I call that a tasty treat for terran. Zerg isn't nearly prolific or long lived enough to send part of its army to do damage in a terran base while its main army attacks enemies. it needs all its army to attack because every single unit matters, not like terran that can drop a suicide medivac full to snipe a hatch and just stay sieged and prevent any attack.
Of course it's situational, everything in Starcraft is situational. That's an empty statement.
Did you even read my original post, I'm talking about a very specific game that I discuss here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=316832¤tpage=16#314
Some points...
1. The mutas alone are almost enough to kill the marines (the marines were at 35hp from stim). But that's ignoring the addition hp of the worm that has to be taken down.
2. Take for example if the marines target the worm first, load it up and check it out in a unit tester, the marines would get the worm, but it'd cost about all 13 of the marines to take the worm. Or even more importantly the mutas have free reign over the SCVs or nearby siege tanks and it doesn't take many SCVs/tanks to pay for the worm. 2 tanks dead would about cover the network+worm's cost (300/250 for tanks vs 300/300 for the nydus).
3. In this particular game Polt's reaction time was 6s which would mean that 8-12 units would be out of the worm before Stephano even got the chance to attack it. What are you expecting 13 marines, 1 tank, and a bunch of SCVs to do vs 7 mutas, 4 banelings, and an increasing number of lings.
4. You say Stephano's units would be streaming out of the nydus one by one, but what do you think happens to a Terran army when they run up 2 ramps through a wall-in?
5. You ignore the condition of the marines. By time they even get to the worm they've been stimmed to 35hp and that stim has worn off.
6. Lets look at what Stephano DOES do. He attacks into the less important 3rd vs 2 siege tanks he can't hit because it's covered by marines and over 13 full hp marines that get to stim. You're seriously telling me that attack was a better decision than the Nydus? Even if he launches that same attack, by having a nydus he's likely caused more marines to pull back or a tank to unsiege which would have given him the 3rd, and possibly the game. This all goes down before the air attack finishes. So Stephano has effectively LOST THE GAME before his alternate investments (air attack and +1 melee attack) even finish while making an attack that was shown to be bad and foolish.
Obviously there are a lot of factors that go into it, but my point still stands that compared to the investment in +1 air attack and +1 melee attack a nydus would have been way more useful, and possibly game winning.
Also remember Shakuras mains are TINY by comparison to a lot of maps. What do you think happens when it's Tal'Darim Alter in the same situation and your opponent has to run through his nat + main all the way to that little ledge in the far off on the corner of their base.
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Using nydus for defensive purposes is totaly useless at it is today, its simply cost to much (100/100).
Its also slow if you only have 1 nydus at each base or what ever, loading up and puking out a full size army takes to long, its actualy faster to run there off creep on most of the maps. So to make it go fast you need like 3-5 worms at each base, and thats a lot of gas your not using on your army.
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So... you make wild assumptions and try to make them sound like facts?
Dont you think that Polt (beeing an excellent player) would have played different if he knew about the potential threat of a nydus network?
Your whole idea rests upon the assumption that Polt wouldnt ever change his playstyle if he scouted a nydus network. By the same logic you can justify every unit/building.
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On March 02 2012 22:44 Charon1979 wrote:
So... you make wild assumptions and try to make them sound like facts?
Dont you think that Polt (beeing an excellent player) would have played different if he knew about the potential threat of a nydus network?
Your whole idea rests upon the assumption that Polt wouldnt ever change his playstyle if he scouted a nydus network. By the same logic you can justify every unit/building.
Well, the even greater assumption he makes is, that Stephano knows the exact positioning of everything Polt has. But for all Stephano knows, he has to assume that every tiny little space in Polts base is filled with marines, and that he should only have like 5-10 sec before he has to turn around with his mutalisks. Way less than the 20sec it takes for the worm to pop out.
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4713 Posts
The comment about Shakuras mains was amusing but it shows that you know little on the subject. Shakuras and Tal'Darim mains are actually the biggest mains of all maps, at 41 CC's and 42 CC's respectively worth of space. Almost every other main is around 30 to 35 CC's of space, and that makes a big difference in what you can and can't hide.
Also the distance from nat to main is much shorter on some of the newer maps as well as the nats and 3rds being smaller and more defensible in general.
You also forgot one critical argument from your "perfect" scenario. What if Polt sends his marines into the main to kill the mutas while his SCVs handle the worm? Yes he does take SCV damage, but he would have taken some anyway from the muta harass. However if you try to focus his SCVs you lose mutas and the worm, if you focus the marines the SCVs will kill the worm and you still lose a lot of mutas.
You also can't assume slow reaction time from your terran opponent every time, just as you can't assume perfect timing and execution from the zerg player, it just doesn't happen. Now you are just taking a small example and extrapolating every little bit to fit your theory, and you still had a hole in your argument.
As someone else said, in most games terrans have armies in position already to receive the harass, you're gambling and investing on them messing up in some way, either in the preparatory stage leading up to the muta harass or in the moment of crisis, and you are always gambling on incomplete information.
Lastly you fail to take into account the effect Nydus play might have on the meta-game and the higher level of preparation and counter measures that can and will be employed if Nydus gains in popularity.
So, your argument is full of hot air but it won't float until more and more players start using it.
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On March 02 2012 23:02 Destructicon wrote:
The comment about Shakuras mains was amusing but it shows that you know little on the subject. Shakuras and Tal'Darim mains are actually the biggest mains of all maps, at 41 CC's and 42 CC's respectively worth of space. Almost every other main is around 30 to 35 CC's of space, and that makes a big difference in what you can and can't hide.
Also the distance from nat to main is much shorter on some of the newer maps as well as the nats and 3rds being smaller and more defensible in general.
You also forgot one critical argument from your "perfect" scenario. What if Polt sends his marines into the main to kill the mutas while his SCVs handle the worm? Yes he does take SCV damage, but he would have taken some anyway from the muta harass. However if you try to focus his SCVs you lose mutas and the worm, if you focus the marines the SCVs will kill the worm and you still lose a lot of mutas.
You also can't assume slow reaction time from your terran opponent every time, just as you can't assume perfect timing and execution from the zerg player, it just doesn't happen. Now you are just taking a small example and extrapolating every little bit to fit your theory, and you still had a hole in your argument.
As someone else said, in most games terrans have armies in position already to receive the harass, you're gambling and investing on them messing up in some way, either in the preparatory stage leading up to the muta harass or in the moment of crisis, and you are always gambling on incomplete information.
Lastly you fail to take into account the effect Nydus play might have on the meta-game and the higher level of preparation and counter measures that can and will be employed if Nydus gains in popularity.
So, your argument is full of hot air but it won't float until more and more players start using it.
Sorry, that is accurate, it would have been better for me to say that Shakuras is very square which means that you're only a certain distance from any point and that distance isn't particularly big. On a map like Tal-darim the natural is more rectangular so if you are at one end of that rectangle (like the mineral line) the other end is pretty far away. I'm not sure, but my thought was also that the nat ramp in Tal-darim (where you're likely to be defending with 3 bases) is also further from the main than Shakuras'.
The nydus is a gamble just like anything else, but even if it doesn't pay off right away it's not wasted. It has a future use, most people agree Nydus' + ultras are good late game for example and we know Stephano is an Ultra user.
My point anyways isn't to show that Nydus' will always work with this type of timing, that'd be a ridiculous statement. The important part is more the style of Nydus' use I'm trying to show (as in not sneaking one hoping your opponent doesn't notice) in the context of a specific game where you can see how it would have had a beneficial effect. The other major point is showing how easily Stephano could afford the worm, as one of the biggest complaints is the cost of the thing.
You can't call something useless if it clearly can have a big impact vs a player who's not making a mistake, so the idea is to show an example of this, then work backwards to figure out how we can create those situations. Luckily the GSL recently had such an example as well which is great.
Lastly you fail to take into account the effect Nydus play might have on the meta-game and the higher level of preparation and counter measures that can and will be employed if Nydus gains in popularity.
No that's fine if they rise in popularity, then strategies change, then they aren't seen. If that happens Nydus' aren't useless, they're having a profound effect by changing the viable strategies your enemies use against you, which is far from useless. And the moment players go back to being unsafe vs Nydus' they just come right back and win games.
On March 02 2012 22:55 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 22:44 Charon1979 wrote:
So... you make wild assumptions and try to make them sound like facts?
Dont you think that Polt (beeing an excellent player) would have played different if he knew about the potential threat of a nydus network?
Your whole idea rests upon the assumption that Polt wouldnt ever change his playstyle if he scouted a nydus network. By the same logic you can justify every unit/building.
Well, the even greater assumption he makes is, that Stephano knows the exact positioning of everything Polt has. But for all Stephano knows, he has to assume that every tiny little space in Polts base is filled with marines, and that he should only have like 5-10 sec before he has to turn around with his mutalisks. Way less than the 20sec it takes for the worm to pop out.
Stephano does know the positioning, or could easily. He sees when the mutas fly in no marines, he has vision on the 3rd, and has spare lings to poke and prod the main/nat area. That gives him all the tools he'd ever need to know Polt's unit positioning.
To the person you are quoting... I'd need to watch the rep again, but Polt doesn't make do scouting in that time I'm pretty sure. Hell he doesn't even spot the spire and that was started 120s before the Nydus would have been. Even if he does make those adjustments, what adjustment would he have made that wouldn't weaken him to the muta/ling push? At best he would move those 13 marines earlier, but considering he didn't even scout the mutalisks it's not fair to say he would have done that if Stephano made a nydus network.
And again importantly... If something changes your opponent's playstyle then that's GOOD and AWESOME and not useless. Nydus 1/10 of the games so that 10/10 of the times your opponent is making crazy adjustments because you might Nydus like this. That 1/10 may succeed 30-50% of the time, but for those 9/10 you are gaining a free advantage. It's no different than the threat of 2rax, proxy pylon, etc. Or more accurately the threat of things like mutalisks, dts, marine/medivac drops, etc.
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On March 02 2012 23:13 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 23:02 Destructicon wrote:
The comment about Shakuras mains was amusing but it shows that you know little on the subject. Shakuras and Tal'Darim mains are actually the biggest mains of all maps, at 41 CC's and 42 CC's respectively worth of space. Almost every other main is around 30 to 35 CC's of space, and that makes a big difference in what you can and can't hide.
Also the distance from nat to main is much shorter on some of the newer maps as well as the nats and 3rds being smaller and more defensible in general.
You also forgot one critical argument from your "perfect" scenario. What if Polt sends his marines into the main to kill the mutas while his SCVs handle the worm? Yes he does take SCV damage, but he would have taken some anyway from the muta harass. However if you try to focus his SCVs you lose mutas and the worm, if you focus the marines the SCVs will kill the worm and you still lose a lot of mutas.
You also can't assume slow reaction time from your terran opponent every time, just as you can't assume perfect timing and execution from the zerg player, it just doesn't happen. Now you are just taking a small example and extrapolating every little bit to fit your theory, and you still had a hole in your argument.
As someone else said, in most games terrans have armies in position already to receive the harass, you're gambling and investing on them messing up in some way, either in the preparatory stage leading up to the muta harass or in the moment of crisis, and you are always gambling on incomplete information.
Lastly you fail to take into account the effect Nydus play might have on the meta-game and the higher level of preparation and counter measures that can and will be employed if Nydus gains in popularity.
So, your argument is full of hot air but it won't float until more and more players start using it. Sorry, that is accurate, it would have been better for me to say that Shakuras is very square which means that you're only a certain distance from any point and that distance isn't particularly big. On a map like Tal-darim the natural is more rectangular so if you are at one end of that rectangle (like the mineral line) the other end is pretty far away. I'm not sure, but my thought was also that the nat ramp in Tal-darim (where you're likely to be defending with 3 bases) is also further from the main than Shakuras'. The nydus is a gamble just like anything else, but even if it doesn't pay off right away it's not wasted. It has a future use, most people agree Nydus' + ultras are good late game for example and we know Stephano is an Ultra user. My point anyways isn't to show that Nydus' will always work with this type of timing, that'd be a ridiculous statement. The important part is more the style of Nydus' use I'm trying to show (as in not sneaking one hoping your opponent doesn't notice) in the context of a specific game where you can see how it would have had a beneficial effect. The other major point is showing how easily Stephano could afford the worm, as one of the biggest complaints is the cost of the thing. You can't call something useless if it clearly can have a big impact vs a player who's not making a mistake, so the idea is to show an example of this, then work backwards to figure out how we can create those situations. Luckily the GSL recently had such an example as well which is great. Show nested quote +Lastly you fail to take into account the effect Nydus play might have on the meta-game and the higher level of preparation and counter measures that can and will be employed if Nydus gains in popularity. No that's fine if they rise in popularity, then strategies change, then they aren't seen. If that happens Nydus' aren't useless, they're having a profound effect by changing the viable strategies your enemies use against you, which is far from useless. And the moment players go back to being unsafe vs Nydus' they just come right back and win games.
Yeah you have a good point, any time I've used Nydus or had it used against me it has been a coin flip where the person dropping the Nydus basically has to hope he isn't scouted. If people can figure out great ways to use a Nydus reliably and not in such a gimmicky way then I'm all for it. Sure a Nydus isn't *that* expensive it's just if your opponent is decently good your Nydus becomes nothing but a complete waste of money because nobody seems to know how to use it in a way that doesn't rely on luck or your opponent being bad.
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On March 02 2012 23:17 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 23:13 Logo wrote:On March 02 2012 23:02 Destructicon wrote:
The comment about Shakuras mains was amusing but it shows that you know little on the subject. Shakuras and Tal'Darim mains are actually the biggest mains of all maps, at 41 CC's and 42 CC's respectively worth of space. Almost every other main is around 30 to 35 CC's of space, and that makes a big difference in what you can and can't hide.
Also the distance from nat to main is much shorter on some of the newer maps as well as the nats and 3rds being smaller and more defensible in general.
You also forgot one critical argument from your "perfect" scenario. What if Polt sends his marines into the main to kill the mutas while his SCVs handle the worm? Yes he does take SCV damage, but he would have taken some anyway from the muta harass. However if you try to focus his SCVs you lose mutas and the worm, if you focus the marines the SCVs will kill the worm and you still lose a lot of mutas.
You also can't assume slow reaction time from your terran opponent every time, just as you can't assume perfect timing and execution from the zerg player, it just doesn't happen. Now you are just taking a small example and extrapolating every little bit to fit your theory, and you still had a hole in your argument.
As someone else said, in most games terrans have armies in position already to receive the harass, you're gambling and investing on them messing up in some way, either in the preparatory stage leading up to the muta harass or in the moment of crisis, and you are always gambling on incomplete information.
Lastly you fail to take into account the effect Nydus play might have on the meta-game and the higher level of preparation and counter measures that can and will be employed if Nydus gains in popularity.
So, your argument is full of hot air but it won't float until more and more players start using it. Sorry, that is accurate, it would have been better for me to say that Shakuras is very square which means that you're only a certain distance from any point and that distance isn't particularly big. On a map like Tal-darim the natural is more rectangular so if you are at one end of that rectangle (like the mineral line) the other end is pretty far away. I'm not sure, but my thought was also that the nat ramp in Tal-darim (where you're likely to be defending with 3 bases) is also further from the main than Shakuras'. The nydus is a gamble just like anything else, but even if it doesn't pay off right away it's not wasted. It has a future use, most people agree Nydus' + ultras are good late game for example and we know Stephano is an Ultra user. My point anyways isn't to show that Nydus' will always work with this type of timing, that'd be a ridiculous statement. The important part is more the style of Nydus' use I'm trying to show (as in not sneaking one hoping your opponent doesn't notice) in the context of a specific game where you can see how it would have had a beneficial effect. The other major point is showing how easily Stephano could afford the worm, as one of the biggest complaints is the cost of the thing. You can't call something useless if it clearly can have a big impact vs a player who's not making a mistake, so the idea is to show an example of this, then work backwards to figure out how we can create those situations. Luckily the GSL recently had such an example as well which is great. Lastly you fail to take into account the effect Nydus play might have on the meta-game and the higher level of preparation and counter measures that can and will be employed if Nydus gains in popularity. No that's fine if they rise in popularity, then strategies change, then they aren't seen. If that happens Nydus' aren't useless, they're having a profound effect by changing the viable strategies your enemies use against you, which is far from useless. And the moment players go back to being unsafe vs Nydus' they just come right back and win games. Yeah you have a good point, any time I've used Nydus or had it used against me it has been a coin flip where the person dropping the Nydus basically has to hope he isn't scouted. If people can figure out great ways to use a Nydus reliably and not in such a gimmicky way then I'm all for it. Sure a Nydus isn't *that* expensive it's just if your opponent is decently good your Nydus becomes nothing but a complete waste of money because nobody seems to know how to use it in a way that doesn't rely on luck or your opponent being bad.
That's really all I want to show, that what you said is true, and that these ways probably do exist if players start thinking creatively and using them.
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To be honest, I think that almost any change to the nydus would actually make it broken. I am perfectly happy with how it stands right now, though I would like to see them used more.
To everyone saying the nydus unloads too slow, I'm going to respectfully express my opinion that that is complete and utter bullshit. The nydus loads and unloads at the exact same speed as all transports, holds 255 units, and transports instantly across the map without travel time, and each one costs the same as a medivac. + Show Spoiler +oh how terrans would love it if their medivacs could hold 255 marines. investing 50 more gas into the starport investment would be so worth it. Though really the nuke/nydus comparison is much more accurate, as it is a 100/100 cost for possible terrible terrible damage, but you never hear terrans complaining about the lost cost when they have to cancel their nuke, like to run forward against now unsieging tanks. Nydus can also be used to force someone to pull units similarly.
Only lings and banelings cost less than 2 supply. If you think they unload slow, don't put lings in them (really, do you need 100 lings coming out, or 25 roaches/hydras four times faster? the lings should instead swing around to assault the 3rd or 4th when the enemy pulls to kill the nydus). And as Logo as pointed out, if units are streaming back into a main to kill a nydus, they will be lined up much the same way as the units coming out of a nydus as they will path up ramps and between buildings. And when you use the nydus, you are the one who dictates the battle, where to attack, with what, when to retreat, everything, and that is such a powerful tool.
Although drops can also pick up and leave, they can be scouted on approach as well, and retreat for them is more vulnerable than with a nydus, as air or ground units can still kill them and all the units inside. Retreating through a nydus is easy and painless, and you don't lose the units in the worm when it dies. And they can just pop out another nydus anywhere to deal with a counterattack, or attack on the other side of the map long before the opponent can defend, as the time it takes to deal with a well placed thought out (and not poorly placed for the hell of it) nydus often is fast enough to construct another afterwards if you feel the need to continue the pressure.
A lot of Starcraft 2 is about positioning. And there is no greater tool for exploiting positioning then a nydus network. I always just have to lol when people think instantaneous transport across time and space is too slow or too expensive. Zelniq truly has it right when he says they're the best underused thing in Sc2.
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On March 02 2012 23:13 Logo wrote:
Stephano does know the positioning, or could easily. He sees when the mutas fly in no marines, he has vision on the 3rd, and has spare lings to poke and prod the main/nat area. That gives him all the tools he'd ever need to know Polt's unit positioning.
So, I watched it from Stephanos perspective now. He has absolutly no intell about the units in the main or the natural. He can't get intell, because there are siegetanks which will deny any poking attempt.
For all he knows, his opponent hasn't shown any marines around his 3rd, therefore he has to assume that there are some in the main. He is pretty much blind at this moment in time and any scouting apart from air units will get shut down before he sees a lot.
The attack at the third afterwards, is pretty much exactly the situation in which he would have been in if he had nydussed the main: few tanks and marines and scvs defending a base... Just with the difference that he would have had to invest into a nydus (cut into his army count) and would not been able to draw back at all (which he didn't do either, because he was very close to winning the game by staying a little longer) with ling/bling into a nydus, due to the slow loading speed of the nydus (that's right; a nydus does not only unload slowly, but also load slowly)
Stephanos Mutalisks entered the base at 11:31 and turned around at 11:47. If he had put down the Nydus immidiatly the moment he entered, the Nydus would have popped when the marines got there.
And I even ran a test for you afterwards: 12 marines on 1/1 with stim and shield against 7mutas and a Nydus unloading zerglings... Still every mutalisk dies. And that's not even assuming that Polt would bring a lot more against a nydus and might use SCVs (as he was losing SCVs anyway, it wouldn't matter if he tries to kill the nydus with it)
Your whole example is just lacking realism and that's why every good player in the world gladly takes the +1 attack and 1more muta over a 10:30 nydus worm which might have the potential to do some damage if you get really lucky.
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On March 03 2012 00:26 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 23:13 Logo wrote:
Stephano does know the positioning, or could easily. He sees when the mutas fly in no marines, he has vision on the 3rd, and has spare lings to poke and prod the main/nat area. That gives him all the tools he'd ever need to know Polt's unit positioning. So, I watched it from Stephanos perspective now. He has absolutly no intell about the units in the main or the natural. He can't get intell, because there are siegetanks which will deny any poking attempt. For all he knows, his opponent hasn't shown any marines around his 3rd, therefore he has to assume that there are some in the main. He is pretty much blind at this moment in time and any scouting apart from air units will get shut down before he sees a lot. The attack at the third afterwards, is pretty much exactly the situation in which he would have been in if he had nydussed the main: few tanks and marines and scvs defending a base... Just with the difference that he would have had to invest into a nydus (cut into his army count) and would not been able to draw back at all (which he didn't do either, because he was very close to winning the game by staying a little longer) with ling/bling into a nydus, due to the slow loading speed of the nydus (that's right; a nydus does not only unload slowly, but also load slowly) Stephanos Mutalisks entered the base at 11:31 and turned around at 11:47. If he had put down the Nydus immidiatly the moment he entered, the Nydus would have popped when the marines got there. And I even ran a test for you afterwards: 12 marines on 1/1 with stim and shield against 7mutas and a Nydus unloading zerglings... Still every mutalisk dies. And that's not even assuming that Polt would bring a lot more against a nydus and might use SCVs (as he was losing SCVs anyway, it wouldn't matter if he tries to kill the nydus with it) Your whole example is just lacking realism and that's why every good player in the world gladly takes the +1 attack and 1more muta over a 10:30 nydus worm which might have the potential to do some damage if you get really lucky.
Getting blasted by siege tanks tells enough because it explains a lot about Polt's build, and iirc there's space between the nat and 3rd where he can spot the marines before being in range of siege tanks. If you have 3CCs, at least 2 tech labs (I don't think anyone is going to skip stim for that long by making 1 tech lab, researching siege mode, then researching stim with the same tech lab), numerous hellions (4 I think?), and an investment in siege tanks then you know there's a pretty obvious upper limit to the # of marines that can exist and it's not that high. It's not like this is super late into the game (only 10-11minutes). What kind of build do you envision with siege mode, 4+ hellions, and 3CCs that can have like 40+ marines out. I'm not sure if Stephano saw the upgrades on marines, but that's also another big clue that the marine count is still low.
Also remember that Stephano was floating something like 1000/100 near to this point, I think he manages to spend it all on zerglings, but it's not unreasonable to think smoother player would have given him a better army in comparison, but I didn't want to go down that road because that's too wishy-washy of ifs and buts.
The nydus isn't unloading zerglings, it's unloading banelings then zerglings and did you stim + expire the stim on the marines so they have 35hp instead of 45? The marines didn't have shield either, just 1/1. Stephano has banelings and Nydus 101 should be that you load in the important units first so they emerge first. Hell it might even be optimal to send a queen out first for tanky HP and possible transfuse (if you missed an inject). You can always dump her back in the worm if she's targeted or if she needs to get back to inject.
If he brings more vs a Nydus then he loses his 3rd which was my point from the start (unless you mean the 3 tanks at the nat, which would arrive well after the nydus popped and would leave the nat undefended completely).
Yes the marines would have gotten there immediately if Polt moves immediately, but instead Polt moved 6s after the mutas entered the base meaning the worm would finish first, never mind the conflicting goals of protecting the scvs and preventing the worm from finishing.
Think about it like this, the mutas + worm in your base means there are 2 distinct threats in two different locations within your main that are both equally as important in a way that even 3 extra mutas wouldn't be able to provide. Whether or not you can make use of that depends on map, builds, and positioning. Take it even further, even if you don't expect the worm to complete, but the worm is 4-5 seconds of walking away from the mutalisks that's up to 6s you buy (4 walking + ~2 to kill the worm with 13 marines) over 240 damage the mutalisks get to put out for the 100/100 cost of the worm plus another 100 out of bounce attacks. That's enough to kill 6-7 scvs (350min loss immediately + lost mining time of those dead scvs + the extra 4-6s the scvs are likely running from mutas and not mining. More than enough to pay for the worm). Pull the SCVs onto the worm and maybe you fair better, but it's still 4-8s of lost mining time + a lot of dead scvs and who knows if it'd be enough to stop the worm in time (plus remember smart play means banelings pop out first and all the scvs would be around the worm).
In general I'm showing an overall concept anyways, but using a specific example to sell it. Muta harass (or even later attacking with broodlords to cover the nydus construction rather than attacking into the tank line itself) can open up a safe nydus in someone's base. Another example of that kind of situation is on metalopolis where you can snipe the supply depot in the fog then harass the scvs while the worm builds which combines both surprise and actual effectiveness*.
*In this situation someone is going to say, if it's popular players will expect it. Well yeah they might but what are their responses. If they build a missile turret there as a popular response then you've won an advantage for the 7/10 or 8/10 times you don't make the nydus with mutas. If they run their marines there (or split) to attack the nydus you've opened up more time to attack/harass with the mutas, especially in the times where you don't make the nydus. If they go to spot with 1-2 marines to see if the nydus is there then run the rest of the army down to kill it, they're cutting it really close.
Again even if the nydus can be countered, which if it's balanced it should be counterable, the point is that if people actually use Nydus worms like this occasionally they become a deterrent and gain you an advantage in all the times you don't make Nydus worms.
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All I play is zerg and whenever I consider the option of making a nydus network I say WOWWOWOWOW 200 gas???? NVM. And then thinking about the extra 100 gas EVERY TIME you make a nydus worm . WTF. NERF PLS. ALSO, nydus worms die SO FAST when building. If the worm hp was increased to 500, making them much more tanky, then they wouldn't get PICKED OFF BY WORKERS. You would think that for a building that costs 100 / 100 they would give it a bit more hp than it has. LOOK AT THE EVO CHAMBER: 75 minerals and 750 HP! NYDUS WORM: 100 / 100 and 200 HP! They are BOTH buildings!!
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goswser uses it well... but even then he gets like 3-4 nydus at once to be able to abuse multi pronged harrassment and keeping opponent running. only time ive ever been significantly concerned about nydus' are when he uses them. but even then if you maintain map awareness you can still deflect it. i dont think people know how to use nydus effectively enough yet and in what scenarios they should be used
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On March 03 2012 00:53 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 00:26 Big J wrote:On March 02 2012 23:13 Logo wrote:
Stephano does know the positioning, or could easily. He sees when the mutas fly in no marines, he has vision on the 3rd, and has spare lings to poke and prod the main/nat area. That gives him all the tools he'd ever need to know Polt's unit positioning. So, I watched it from Stephanos perspective now. He has absolutly no intell about the units in the main or the natural. He can't get intell, because there are siegetanks which will deny any poking attempt. For all he knows, his opponent hasn't shown any marines around his 3rd, therefore he has to assume that there are some in the main. He is pretty much blind at this moment in time and any scouting apart from air units will get shut down before he sees a lot. The attack at the third afterwards, is pretty much exactly the situation in which he would have been in if he had nydussed the main: few tanks and marines and scvs defending a base... Just with the difference that he would have had to invest into a nydus (cut into his army count) and would not been able to draw back at all (which he didn't do either, because he was very close to winning the game by staying a little longer) with ling/bling into a nydus, due to the slow loading speed of the nydus (that's right; a nydus does not only unload slowly, but also load slowly) Stephanos Mutalisks entered the base at 11:31 and turned around at 11:47. If he had put down the Nydus immidiatly the moment he entered, the Nydus would have popped when the marines got there. And I even ran a test for you afterwards: 12 marines on 1/1 with stim and shield against 7mutas and a Nydus unloading zerglings... Still every mutalisk dies. And that's not even assuming that Polt would bring a lot more against a nydus and might use SCVs (as he was losing SCVs anyway, it wouldn't matter if he tries to kill the nydus with it) Your whole example is just lacking realism and that's why every good player in the world gladly takes the +1 attack and 1more muta over a 10:30 nydus worm which might have the potential to do some damage if you get really lucky. Getting blasted by siege tanks tells enough because it explains a lot about Polt's build, and iirc there's space between the nat and 3rd where he can spot the marines before being in range of siege tanks. If you have 3CCs, at least 2 tech labs (I don't think anyone is going to skip stim for that long by making 1 tech lab, researching siege mode, then researching stim with the same tech lab), numerous hellions (4 I think?), and an investment in siege tanks then you know there's a pretty obvious upper limit to the # of marines that can exist and it's not that high. It's not like this is super late into the game (only 10-11minutes). What kind of build do you envision with siege mode, 4+ hellions, and 3CCs that can have like 40+ marines out. I'm not sure if Stephano saw the upgrades on marines, but that's also another big clue that the marine count is still low. Also remember that Stephano was floating something like 1000/100 near to this point, I think he manages to spend it all on zerglings, but it's not unreasonable to think smoother player would have given him a better army in comparison, but I didn't want to go down that road because that's too wishy-washy of ifs and buts.
Absolutly. There are builds out there that have the 40marines at that point. Polt had 25 and a bunch of upgrades going and reactors being built and 800minerals floating himself...
And Stephano spent his money on double expanding afterwards. It's the normal problem when facing a hellion expand. You can't take a third, so the only way to keep up with Terrans base count is to take 3rd and 4th very fast, which you will need to bunker up some money for. And even if it would be a mistake, it still shows that Stephano is not capeable of playing it smooth enough to get the things you want him to have at that point (and Polt's macro wasn't better).
On March 03 2012 00:53 Logo wrote:
The nydus isn't unloading zerglings, it's unloading banelings then zerglings and did you stim + expire the stim on the marines so they have 35hp instead of 45? The marines didn't have shield either, just 1/1. Stephano has banelings and Nydus 101 should be that you load in the important units first so they emerge first. Hell it might even be optimal to send a queen out first for tanky HP and possible transfuse (if you missed an inject). You can always dump her back in the worm if she's targeted or if she needs to get back to inject.
If he brings more vs a Nydus then he loses his 3rd which was my point from the start (unless you mean the 3 tanks at the nat, which would arrive well after the nydus popped and would leave the nat undefended completely).
Yes the marines would have gotten there immediately if Polt moves immediately, but instead Polt moved 6s after the mutas entered the base meaning the worm would finish first, never mind the conflicting goals of protecting the scvs and preventing the worm from finishing.
You misunderstood. After being terrible out of position against the mutalisks and a huge reaction time of 6sec, Polts Marines still drove Stephanos Mutalisks away at 11:47. At that time a perfectly planted and completly luckbased (as Stephano doesn't know that there is nothing there and Polt is not producing either, the moment he flies into the base) Nydus Worm would still take 4more seconds to finish, assuming that Polt wouldn't just right click all of his SCVs on the Nydus instead of letting them die in his mineral line.
And I generally get your idea of: mutas cleaning up and Nydus being planted down afterwards. I just don't see it working, nor do I have made good experiences with it. It's usually a waste of army and ressources to do minimal damage to buildings. Your opponent is either going to pull his workers away, or using is workers to kill the Nydus. Only a misjudgement on his side will allow you to do real economical damage, unless you manage to move your whole army of ling/bling through it and manage to beat his army in a situation that is as choky as possible.
Well, I guess you can use it for counterattacks (which you can also use your fast units for, most of the time), but there is no way that this works with ling/bling/muta armies vs Terran.
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On March 01 2012 19:31 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 19:04 Murlox wrote:On March 01 2012 18:41 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 18:35 Murlox wrote:
A great thing I regret not seeing much is to use the nydus canal as an escape mechanism after a doom drop.
1. Overlord drop their base
2. Plant a nydus in a corner of their base (opposite side from ramp)
3. When he comes back to defend, move every unit into the nydus instead of losing them
4. Profit.. or you load your units back into Overlords that wait in the same position and load up much faster, as you have already everything you need for it (drops, speed, the overlords in position) and don't need an extra investment of 200/300. And lose half your army and overlords in the process. We all know how this goes. Drop, move overlords back, plant a nydus, rape his base, and retreat with nydus when he comes back. Clean and simple. what? why would you be able to retreat per nydus when you are not able to retreat per OLs? OLs pick up immidiatly, Nydus pick up a unit with only double the speed they unload (which means they pick up 4units per sec) You have to be really slow for your OLs to be worse than Nydus. In every scenario in which you lose some OLs and army in retreat, you will lose more if he focuses the nydus and afterwards cleans up. (Well, every scenario apart from him having a massive airforce that can hunt down your OLs) Shocked that nobody called you out on this.
Overlords move pretty slowly, and are easy pickings for stalkers and stimmed marines. Units actually load pretty fast into the nydus despite the slow unload time, and with the brief creep spread it produces you should have no issues retreating 90% of your army back into the worm. You will save far more units and overlords using a Nydus than you will picking back up into your drop.
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On March 03 2012 01:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 00:53 Logo wrote:On March 03 2012 00:26 Big J wrote:On March 02 2012 23:13 Logo wrote:
Stephano does know the positioning, or could easily. He sees when the mutas fly in no marines, he has vision on the 3rd, and has spare lings to poke and prod the main/nat area. That gives him all the tools he'd ever need to know Polt's unit positioning. So, I watched it from Stephanos perspective now. He has absolutly no intell about the units in the main or the natural. He can't get intell, because there are siegetanks which will deny any poking attempt. For all he knows, his opponent hasn't shown any marines around his 3rd, therefore he has to assume that there are some in the main. He is pretty much blind at this moment in time and any scouting apart from air units will get shut down before he sees a lot. The attack at the third afterwards, is pretty much exactly the situation in which he would have been in if he had nydussed the main: few tanks and marines and scvs defending a base... Just with the difference that he would have had to invest into a nydus (cut into his army count) and would not been able to draw back at all (which he didn't do either, because he was very close to winning the game by staying a little longer) with ling/bling into a nydus, due to the slow loading speed of the nydus (that's right; a nydus does not only unload slowly, but also load slowly) Stephanos Mutalisks entered the base at 11:31 and turned around at 11:47. If he had put down the Nydus immidiatly the moment he entered, the Nydus would have popped when the marines got there. And I even ran a test for you afterwards: 12 marines on 1/1 with stim and shield against 7mutas and a Nydus unloading zerglings... Still every mutalisk dies. And that's not even assuming that Polt would bring a lot more against a nydus and might use SCVs (as he was losing SCVs anyway, it wouldn't matter if he tries to kill the nydus with it) Your whole example is just lacking realism and that's why every good player in the world gladly takes the +1 attack and 1more muta over a 10:30 nydus worm which might have the potential to do some damage if you get really lucky. Getting blasted by siege tanks tells enough because it explains a lot about Polt's build, and iirc there's space between the nat and 3rd where he can spot the marines before being in range of siege tanks. If you have 3CCs, at least 2 tech labs (I don't think anyone is going to skip stim for that long by making 1 tech lab, researching siege mode, then researching stim with the same tech lab), numerous hellions (4 I think?), and an investment in siege tanks then you know there's a pretty obvious upper limit to the # of marines that can exist and it's not that high. It's not like this is super late into the game (only 10-11minutes). What kind of build do you envision with siege mode, 4+ hellions, and 3CCs that can have like 40+ marines out. I'm not sure if Stephano saw the upgrades on marines, but that's also another big clue that the marine count is still low. Also remember that Stephano was floating something like 1000/100 near to this point, I think he manages to spend it all on zerglings, but it's not unreasonable to think smoother player would have given him a better army in comparison, but I didn't want to go down that road because that's too wishy-washy of ifs and buts. Absolutly. There are builds out there that have the 40marines at that point. Polt had 25 and a bunch of upgrades going and reactors being built and 800minerals floating himself... And Stephano spent his money on double expanding afterwards. It's the normal problem when facing a hellion expand. You can't take a third, so the only way to keep up with Terrans base count is to take 3rd and 4th very fast, which you will need to bunker up some money for. And even if it would be a mistake, it still shows that Stephano is not capeable of playing it smooth enough to get the things you want him to have at that point (and Polt's macro wasn't better). Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 00:53 Logo wrote:
The nydus isn't unloading zerglings, it's unloading banelings then zerglings and did you stim + expire the stim on the marines so they have 35hp instead of 45? The marines didn't have shield either, just 1/1. Stephano has banelings and Nydus 101 should be that you load in the important units first so they emerge first. Hell it might even be optimal to send a queen out first for tanky HP and possible transfuse (if you missed an inject). You can always dump her back in the worm if she's targeted or if she needs to get back to inject.
If he brings more vs a Nydus then he loses his 3rd which was my point from the start (unless you mean the 3 tanks at the nat, which would arrive well after the nydus popped and would leave the nat undefended completely).
Yes the marines would have gotten there immediately if Polt moves immediately, but instead Polt moved 6s after the mutas entered the base meaning the worm would finish first, never mind the conflicting goals of protecting the scvs and preventing the worm from finishing. You misunderstood. After being terrible out of position against the mutalisks and a huge reaction time of 6sec, Polts Marines still drove Stephanos Mutalisks away at 11:47. At that time a perfectly planted and completly luckbased (as Stephano doesn't know that there is nothing there and Polt is not producing either, the moment he flies into the base) Nydus Worm would still take 4more seconds to finish, assuming that Polt wouldn't just right click all of his SCVs on the Nydus instead of letting them die in his mineral line. And I generally get your idea of: mutas cleaning up and Nydus being planted down afterwards. I just don't see it working, nor do I have made good experiences with it. It's usually a waste of army and ressources to do minimal damage to buildings. Your opponent is either going to pull his workers away, or using is workers to kill the Nydus. Only a misjudgement on his side will allow you to do real economical damage, unless you manage to move your whole army of ling/bling through it and manage to beat his army in a situation that is as choky as possible. Well, I guess you can use it for counterattacks (which you can also use your fast units for, most of the time), but there is no way that this works with ling/bling/muta armies vs Terran.
11:47 they drove them away from the scvs, if I'm understanding your point correctly, but this was at the ramp and then on to the mineral line by 11:50-11:52 iirc which is closer by about 3-4 seconds then where you'd reasonably place the nydus worm. If you mean they reach the mineral line at 11:47 that's closer in timing but still you have... worm @ 11:30 Marines push back mutas at 11:47 then another 3-4 seconds to get to the worm unless they stim again (which would give them 25hp). Plus by moving the marines away from the mutas you aren't covering the scvs anymore unless you split the 13 marines or take the scvs with you.
The base is only really choked up near the ramp and the nydus is on the opposite side. There's likely to be a dance with lings/marines just like you see slightly later at the 3rd in that game, but that's fine. You also have to remember if the nydus is going to have temporary success it can almost always have long term success (you can start a 2nd worm after the 1st if you think it is going well).
I'm curious how many times you've tried something like this since you say that you have and it doesn't work. I've played 100s of Master level ladder games trying to get good replays of this but for every 100 ladder games I get about 33 Terrans give or take. Maybe 10 of those are on maps like Xel'Naga Caverns or Entombed Valley where I wouldn't try this strategy (the current pool is better of course, historically the odds were much worse). Then out of the remaining 23 Terrans you can usually expect like 1/2-3/4 of that to cheese, 2-base, or go another strategy on you. So of the 5-10 remaining games I need a game where neither of us mess up (unlikely), both have relatively good macro (also unlikely), I scout properly (also unlikely) and we're both evenly matched so it's not just my opponent being bad (unlikely). So you're looking at 100 ladder games with like 1/100 chance to actually have a game that's a good showcase and like maybe 3 or so games where you use a worm to beat up on someone who made a mistake or is an inferior player. Then maybe double that if you count in ZvP uses (ZvZ I haven't seen a common use I like in a long time though I used to do mid/late roach movements with nydus).
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EPT
