Why is the Nydus Worm underused? - Page 16
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GP
United States1056 Posts
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mind0killer
United States26 Posts
On March 02 2012 09:11 avilo wrote: People need to use them more in lategame. Nydus worm is the equivalent of a nuke from Terrans, or a warp prism from protosses. on yet. I'll agree with your comparison to the nuke, in that it is a huge (potentially repeat) investment which might never pay for its cost. But the warp prism, hell no! The warp prism can be built early and maintain its usefulness throughout the game with no additional investment beyond the initial minerals required to build it. The warp prism can be re positioned at any time for no cost; to re position a nydus worm exit costs 100/100. There is no room for comparison between nydus and warp prism. | ||
ETisME
12329 Posts
And I could just mass expand as well If he decided to all-in before my hive is done, I can force a base trade I did this all the way until I hit diamond and it kinds of stopped because I stopped this style as I am not so comfortable with base trade Against terran, it's a bit more difficult imo. Terran army is a bit more mobile overall and it could be problematic if you try to load up the lings while he drops. The only time I actually had a good success with it was against a gold league where I distracted his marines with nydus and then used overlord drop lings on to his tanks. Also in late game, Terran would have PTs as their base and Protoss could mass cannon up. It gets too difficult for lings to do any damage at all even with maxed upgrades. But if you put ultras in the nydus, it can be a bit risky to lose an ultra just for a chance to harass | ||
Proseat
Germany5113 Posts
On March 01 2012 13:47 Torte de Lini wrote: Can't be canceled. Expensive to build. Expensive to make a Nydus. Obvious and limited use. units come out one at a time when you unload Now why does Blizzard never read these things? I wish there was more use of the Nydus. | ||
BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
On March 02 2012 09:13 GP wrote: It boggles my mind that I don't see Zergs who are banking a thousand+ resources put up a Nydus at each of their furthest expansions in the late game. What's a bigger loss when an expansion gets dropped/attacked, the Nydus and the Hatchery, or the Hatchery and all of the drones? I'm not a professional player of coarse, but it seems like common sense to me. 1. You'll need those thousands of resources to remax your army usually. 2. Nydus is almost useless to defend this way. First because it has so little health it will be focussed down almost immediately. Second, because units come out one by one, they're easy to pick off by the drop. | ||
Hadraziel
Russian Federation114 Posts
On March 02 2012 09:11 avilo wrote: People need to use them more in lategame. Nydus worm is the equivalent of a nuke from Terrans, or a warp prism from protosses. Also, another thing most Zergs have not done yet is use nydus worms with a single queen inside of it to spread creep to expansions on the map and forward locations. It's an example of a very powerful use for nydus worms that has not caught on yet. It would make more sense to put the queen into an overlord and spread the creep, at least it does not warn your opponent about what you are doing. Overlords and Nyduses roles overlap completely, no wonder why Nyduses are underused. | ||
GP
United States1056 Posts
On March 02 2012 09:21 BoxingKangaroo wrote: 1. You'll need those thousands of resources to remax your army usually. 2. Nydus is almost useless to defend this way. First because it has so little health it will be focussed down almost immediately. Second, because units come out one by one, they're easy to pick off by the drop. Not for defense, purely to save the drones, which also helps with that remaxing thing, you know. I think the investment in the Nydus is well worth it and much more cost effective in the long run if you're saving fifteen+ drones. | ||
Kharnage
Australia920 Posts
On March 02 2012 09:21 BoxingKangaroo wrote: 1. You'll need those thousands of resources to remax your army usually. 2. Nydus is almost useless to defend this way. First because it has so little health it will be focussed down almost immediately. Second, because units come out one by one, they're easy to pick off by the drop. 1. That doesn't mean that spending a realtively small amount of resources on a nydus network is a bad idea. infact, it could help to have the units at the far courners of the map rally into the nydus instead of going all that distance on the remax. 2. The problem with the nydus is that people put zerglings in them. You need singularly strong units like ultras to come out of the nydus otherwise, as you say, they will get picked off by the drop. The nydus health is definitely an issue however, but if the drop kills the nydus first they will buy time for the the 'normal' defence units to arrive (mutas/ling/infestors) and if they don't then instantly units can be there to help deal with drop. | ||
DashedHopes
Canada414 Posts
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LimeNade
United States2125 Posts
1) They are very easily killed and take a fair while to build/cost a lot as well. 2) If you rely on a nydus worm and an opponent spots it you are screwed. 3) ZERG IS A MASS ARMY TYPE OF RACE. Nydus worms unload units slowly. Ever try to unload 100 lings into a fight froma nydus worm? Its not too pretty. 4) Any pro who lets a nydus worm get off in his main because he has no vision of it is just bad and isn't a pro. There is never an excuse to not have your base fully scouted against a zerg player. That's just a complete rookie mistake. I am sorry but this shouldn't be an OP on this. Its obvious and has been discussed multiple times already. | ||
BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
On March 02 2012 09:25 GP wrote: Not for defense, purely to save the drones, which also helps with that remaxing thing, you know. I think the investment in the Nydus is well worth it and much more cost effective in the long run if you're saving fifteen+ drones. Didn't really think of it that way. Not a bad idea to toy around with. | ||
BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
On March 02 2012 09:27 Kharnage wrote: 1. That doesn't mean that spending a realtively small amount of resources on a nydus network is a bad idea. infact, it could help to have the units at the far courners of the map rally into the nydus instead of going all that distance on the remax. 2. The problem with the nydus is that people put zerglings in them. You need singularly strong units like ultras to come out of the nydus otherwise, as you say, they will get picked off by the drop. The nydus health is definitely an issue however, but if the drop kills the nydus first they will buy time for the the 'normal' defence units to arrive (mutas/ling/infestors) and if they don't then instantly units can be there to help deal with drop. 1. It's a small amount, but not trivial, especially when a late-game zerg is gas constrained. Putting a nydus at two or three far expands will cost you around 500 gas. That's not a small amount. 2. If an 8 marine drop decides to kill the nydus first, it will buy you about 1 second at most. | ||
Clarity_nl
Netherlands6826 Posts
It relies on your opponent making a mistake <- is the critical one I think | ||
Logo
United States7542 Posts
Replay analysis of how a pro could have won a high profile game safely with Nydus Worm: If you've watched Winter Assembly or don't care about spoilers I really appreciate you reading this, it's a detailed description of how Nydus could have changed a game. + Show Spoiler [Winter Assembly Spoilers] + I'll be looking at Game #4 of the Winter Assembly Finals http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/portals.php?show=news&news_id=869070 Skip ahead to 10:30 and lets look at Stephano's situation. -Spire just finished -He's making 7 mutalisks -He has 1k/160 in the bank and he invests 100 of that into air upgrade 1 + floats gas + starts melee upgrade 1 later. It's entirely reasonable to say at this point Stephano should have 150/200 spare at this point by not floating minerals (a mistake he made) and his ability to defend would be unchanged (as he spends gas on a 2nd upgrade before the next muta he makes is completed, so in total he spent 250 gas on stuff that doesn't help until much much later). Thus at this point, 10:30 exactly. Stephano could make a Nydus Network with absolutely no risk of anything different happening over the next 50s compared to what he chose to do (air attack +1). Much later his air attack would be delayed, but I'm going to show how much he could have gained via Nydus play. Now lets go ahead to 11:10. Where we have this: ![]() Why is this important, lets look at our situation.
That means Polt would have 2 seconds to react to even have a non-0% chance to get to worm before it emerged, which is a far cry from the 6s it took him to react and it assumes he runs right for the worm rather than to protect his SCVs (which Stephano can follow with mutas if Polt moves by rather than a-moves). His 13 marines available dealing 10.5dps would take 2 seconds to kill the worm which is enough time for 4 banelings to emerge. Yet this assumes he stims his marines a 2nd time giving them only 25hp to survive the mutalisks that could be there. Otherwise he has 4s to get units out free of charge. Of course this ignores any marines that die from the 7 mutalisks that can attack them (each muta volley would just kill one marine outright I believe if he doesn't re-stim). Likewise he also has to choose between protecting the SCVs, or attacking the worm unless he pulls the SCVs TO the worm which he could do, but that puts them right in the line of fire for the mutas and since we know the worm is almost sure to survive it's a big risk. Now SCV's do 2.67dps to the worm so their dps isn't that significant and if they're pulled immediately to the worm there are 7 mutas there getting to take free shots on them for 14s (when the marines arrive). Even if the worm was killed in this way the SCV loss is a huge hit to Polt well worth the worm's cost (and network, but Stephano gets to keep that regardless). We know pulling the SCVs to hit the worm is a huge risk as Stephano because Stephano has banelings. If they are first out of the worm they will detonate and annhilate large scv #s, something that would be a huge blow to Polt. Additional army is, at this point, 15-20s away and there's only a minimal force on the 3rd that Stephano can scout/spot. Unless you sac the SCVs, this worm is completing. Even that nearby tank is about 12s away + 4s unsiege and if it moves before the marines arrive it's vulnerable to the mutas (plus the tank costs more than the worm). If Stephano put his network at his nat (towards the ramp down) lings could be 5s away from both the nydus AND Polt's 3rd by standing near the Xel'Naga, which means that up until 5s left on the worm Stephano can threaten the 3rd if additional forces are pulled back to prepare for the worm finishing. Since those marines are about 25s-30s away from the nydus worm, that gives Stephano a huge timing advantage. Polt has to pull them RIGHT AWAY if he wants to defend a full on nydus in his base, but Stephano can wait 15s to decide if he wants to hit the 3rd or hit the main. The tanks are there, but keep in mind that all Stephano needs to do to win is kill the marines really (Polt would be defenseless vs the mutalisks). None of them can get there in time to kill the worm before units emerge either with 4s to unsiege and their slow movespeed. Stephano has enough units at this point to kill Polt so long as polt can't make use of a defensive position (sieged up siege tanks). Since we're forcing Polt to pull back to the main if we hit there, his tanks won't be sieged for most of the battle. What if Polt's units were better positioned? Well what would that look like. Would it be any better to Stephano's option of pulling his muta's back and hitting else where sans worm? I fail to see some magic configuration that Polt should have known to do that would be well equipped to handle this attack + the threat of a full frontal attack. Not to mention if Stephano was planning on this type of strategy he could easily scout the unit positioning with a ling poke ahead of time. By seeing the # of marines gathered near the 3rd + the fact that Polt has a 3rd, he would know the main is relatively undefended. Now you might also say, "It's a risk! What about late game" Well we know Stephano likes Ultras late game in many situations. Shakuras may not be the best map for late game nydus play, but we do know it's something that can be effective . So maybe he is delaying air attack or skipping it, but so long as he protects that network he's setup late game to make better use of Ultras. So he can deal tons of damage now or if it doesn't pan out is setup to do well later with a nydus up. So lets recap:
Conclusion/TL;DR Thus I contend that I've shown a real world example with PRO players where a Nydus Worm would have offered a UNIQUE chance to win or gain an advantage that no other thing in the Zerg army could have done. This is the finals game of a big tournament that could have been won with a Nydus. I don't think this is a unique situation either and I'd love to go through other games if people want me to. This isn't some convuluted situation either. Any time a T builds in this manner with a more reactionary muta defense, they're open to this type of timing attack, it's not something that happens every game (map matters a lot as other factors). Nor does it require much setup, the only demand is you delay air attack and instead make the network. I also saw this coming from awhile away as I watched the game. I was practically yelling (aka typing to a friend in chat) about how this game could have been wrapped up by the safe construction of a Nydus Network. And for what it's worth I play Zerg. | ||
muzzy
United States640 Posts
The cost isn't that prohibitive, really, but as it stands now researching Ovie speed (which is always useful) + Drop tech is just easier to move an army around than Nydus. You'd be surprised how excruciatingly long it takes for units to funnel out of a Nydus, and god forbid you get any lings in there, or you'll be waiting all night. If they increased Nydus unload speed, it'd have a distinct use that ovie drops do not have. It would be better for defense and would punish an opponent who doesn't scout his base properly. Ovie drops would still be better for certain tactical situations (dropping banelings) and for doom drops on opponents that have properly scouted their bases. | ||
Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
1. Unload speed is too slow, and: 2. The noise it makes upon surfacing is unnescessary, and limits what you can do with the worm. If I want to take a hidden expo, it does not help to have to purchase two canals to make a distraction or let the opponent know that I have taken a hidden base. | ||
catid
United Kingdom47 Posts
On March 02 2012 09:58 Logo wrote: Prepare to be scienced bitches... (ok that might be a bit dramatic). Replay analysis of how a pro could have won a high profile game safely with Nydus Worm: If you've watched Winter Assembly or don't care about spoilers I really appreciate you reading this, it's a detailed description of how Nydus could have changed a game. + Show Spoiler [Winter Assembly Spoilers] + I'll be looking at Game #4 of the Winter Assembly Finals http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/portals.php?show=news&news_id=869070 Skip ahead to 10:30 and lets look at Stephano's situation. -Spire just finished -He's making 7 mutalisks -He has 1k/160 in the bank and he invests 100 of that into air upgrade 1 + floats gas + starts melee upgrade 1 later. It's entirely reasonable to say at this point Stephano should have 150/200 spare at this point by not floating minerals (a mistake he made) and his ability to defend would be unchanged (as he spends gas on a 2nd upgrade before the next muta he makes is completed, so in total he spent 250 gas on stuff that doesn't help until much much later). Thus at this point, 10:30 exactly. Stephano could make a Nydus Worm with absolutely no risk of anything different happening over the next 50s compared to what he chose to do (air attack +1). Much later his air attack would be delayed, but I'm going to show how much he could have gained via Nydus play. Now lets go ahead to 11:10. Where we have this: ![]() Why is this important, lets look at our situation.
That means Polt would have 2 seconds to react to even have a non-0% chance to get to worm before it emerged, which is a far cry from the 6s it took him to react and it assumes he runs right for the worm rather than to protect his SCVs (which Stephano can follow with mutas if Polt moves by rather than a-moves). His 13 marines available dealing 10.5dps would take 2 seconds to kill the worm which is enough time for 4 banelings to emerge. Yet this assumes he stims his marines a 2nd time giving them only 25hp to survive the mutalisks that could be there. Otherwise he has 4s to get units out free of charge. Of course this ignores any marines that die from the 7 mutalisks that can attack them (each muta volley would just kill one marine outright I believe if he doesn't re-stim). Likewise he also has to choose between protecting the SCVs, or attacking the worm unless he pulls the SCVs TO the worm which he could do, but that puts them right in the line of fire for the mutas and since we know the worm is almost sure to survive it's a big risk. Now SCV's do 2.67dps to the worm so their dps isn't that significant and if they're pulled immediately to the worm there are 7 mutas there getting to take free shots on them for 14s (when the marines arrive). Even if the worm was killed in this way the SCV loss is a huge hit to Polt well worth the worm's cost (and canal, but Stephano gets to keep that regardless). We know pulling the SCVs to hit the worm is a huge risk as Stephano because Stephano has banelings. If they are first out of the worm they will detonate and annhilate large scv #s, something that would be a huge blow to Polt. Additional army is, at this point, 15-20s away and there's only a minimal force on the 3rd that Stephano can scout/spot. Unless you sac the SCVs, this worm is completing. Even that nearby tank is about 12s away + 4s unsiege and if it moves before the marines arrive it's vulnerable to the mutas (plus the tank costs more than the worm). If Stephano put his canal at his nat (towards the ramp down) lings could be 5s away from both the nydus AND Polt's 3rd by standing near the Xel'Naga, which means that up until 5s left on the worm Stephano can threaten the 3rd if additional forces are pulled back to prepare for the worm finishing. Since those marines are about 25s-30s away from the nydus worm, that gives Stephano a huge timing advantage. Polt has to pull them RIGHT AWAY if he wants to defend a full on nydus in his base, but Stephano can wait 15s to decide if he wants to hit the 3rd or hit the main. The tanks are there, but keep in mind that all Stephano needs to do to win is kill the marines really (Polt would be defenseless vs the mutalisks). None of them can get there in time to kill the worm before units emerge either with 4s to unsiege and their slow movespeed. Stephano has enough units at this point to kill Polt so long as polt can't make use of a defensive position (sieged up siege tanks). Since we're forcing Polt to pull back to the main if we hit there, his tanks won't be sieged for most of the battle. What if Polt's units were better positioned? Well what would that look like. Would it be any better to Stephano's option of pulling his muta's back and hitting else where sans worm? I fail to see some magic configuration that Polt should have known to do that would be well equipped to handle this attack + the threat of a full frontal attack. Not to mention if Stephano was planning on this type of strategy he could easily scout the unit positioning with a ling poke ahead of time. By seeing the # of marines gathered near the 3rd + the fact that Polt has a 3rd, he would know the main is relatively undefended. Now you might also say, "It's a risk! What about late game" Well we know Stephano likes Ultras late game in many situations. Shakuras may not be the best map for late game nydus play, but we do know it's something that can be effective . So maybe he is delaying air attack or skipping it, but so long as he protects that canal he's setup late game to make better use of Ultras. So he can deal tons of damage now or if it doesn't pan out is setup to do well later with a nydus up. So lets recap:
Conclusion/TL;DR Thus I contend that I've shown a real world example with PRO players where a Nydus Worm would have offered a UNIQUE chance to win or gain an advantage that no other thing in the Zerg army could have done. This is the finals game of a big tournament that could have been won with a Nydus. I don't think this is a unique situation either and I'd love to go through other games if people want me to. This isn't some convuluted situation either. Any time a T builds in this manner with a more reactionary muta defense, they're open to this type of timing attack, it's not something that happens every game (map matters a lot as other factors). Nor does it require much setup, the only demand is you delay air attack and instead make the canal. I also saw this coming from awhile away as I watched the game. I was practically yelling (aka typing to a friend in chat) about how this game could have been wrapped up by the safe construction of a Nydus Canal. And for what it's worth I play Zerg. It's easy to say these kind of things with hindsight. When you're playing a Muta/Baneling/Zergling style you're relying on a small stockpile of gas to immediately morph Banelings to deal with an attack.. if you build the nydus+worm you're really gas-starved and make yourself extremely vulnerable to an attack. Stephano also has no idea how many Marines Polt has or where they are.. and that number will vary depending on Polt's build. If he did have a group of marines in his main (and most Terrans will) the nydus is completely useless. Even if it finishes it's spitting out Zerglings/Banelings one by one which are just going to get cleaned up by a small group of Marines anyways. Hell I don't even see how having a nydus in Polt's base would be of any use when he has his army relatively close to his mainn. | ||
Logo
United States7542 Posts
On March 02 2012 10:22 catid wrote: It's easy to say these kind of things with hindsight. When you're playing a Muta/Baneling/Zergling style you're relying on a small stockpile of gas to immediately morph Banelings to deal with an attack.. if you build the nydus+worm you're really gas-starved and make yourself extremely vulnerable to an attack. Stephano also has no idea how many Marines Polt has or where they are.. and that number will vary depending on Polt's build. If he did have a group of marines in his main (and most Terrans will) the nydus is completely useless. Even if it finishes it's spitting out Zerglings/Banelings one by one which are just going to get cleaned up by a small group of Marines anyways. Hell I don't even see how having a nydus in Polt's base would be of any use when he has his army relatively close to his mainn. There's no hindsight needed. You didn't even read my post in a way to comprehend it as I address ALL your issues. Maybe rather than jumping to conclusions and making big assumptions you should slow down and read with an open mind. + Show Spoiler + Stephano saw the 3rd before investing in the air upgrade. He spend money on the attack upgrades which are a longer vulnerability than the worm. The 3rd tells you something about the marine count. He had a delayed 3rd so his eye was on aggression anyways. The marines WEREN'T THERE AND COULDN'T HAVE BEEN THERE. 13 marines under attack by 7 mutas and an additional ling/bling every .5s are marines that aren't going to live long. Polts army was only stronger because of sieged siege tanks and superior positioning. Look at how Stephano nearly overruns the 3rd immediately after the muta harass. And if Polt concentrates all his units in one position in his base the entire rest of his base is open to muta harass or ling attacks. Even if it is 'hindsight' uh... so fucking what. That's the point of replay analysis. You look at things in hindsight, then learn lessons and apply them forward. The popular opinion is that Nydus Worms are useless, I showed a great example of them having a unique use, thus they aren't useless and can win games, even pro ones. Your post is also full of spoilers. | ||
Corsica
Ukraine1854 Posts
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catid
United Kingdom47 Posts
On March 02 2012 10:29 Logo wrote: There's no hindsight needed. You didn't even read my post in a way to comprehend it as I address ALL your issues. Maybe rather than jumping to conclusions and making big assumptions you should slow down and read with an open mind. + Show Spoiler + Stephano saw the 3rd before investing in the air upgrade. He spend money on the attack upgrades which are a longer vulnerability than the worm. The 3rd tells you something about the marine count. He had a delayed 3rd so his eye was on aggression anyways. The marines WEREN'T THERE AND COULDN'T HAVE BEEN THERE. 13 marines under attack by 7 mutas and an additional ling/bling every .5s are marines that aren't going to live long. Polts army was only stronger because of sieged siege tanks and superior positioning. Look at how Stephano nearly overruns the 3rd immediately after the muta harass. And if Polt concentrates all his units in one position in his base the entire rest of his base is open to muta harass or ling attacks. Even if it is 'hindsight' uh... so fucking what. That's the point of replay analysis. You look at things in hindsight, then learn lessons and apply them forward. The popular opinion is that Nydus Worms are useless, I showed a great example of them having a unique use, thus they aren't useless and can win games, even pro ones. Your post is also full of spoilers. TL removed its no spoilers policy. Go open up the replay and look at the game again, Polt has 4 (almost 5) tanks and 6 barracks (4 reactored..) about to churn out marines. He's just going to reposition some Tanks, bring some Marines back and clean up the attack no problem with a ton of reinforcements. There's no discussion to this. Your point about drawing the army away so you can attack somewhere else is completely unrelated.. the mutalisks already did this. The 'hindsight' thing is referring to the fact that using the Nydus in these situations is just hoping he isn't prepraed. E.g. putting a Nydus down in ZvP in Protoss' main is just hoping he doesn't watch the minimap enough. It's not really reliable. | ||
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