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On March 02 2012 03:20 sevia wrote:
I don't get why people keep saying nyduses are useful as reinforcement points. Work on your creep spread and then you'll see how useful nyduses are in comparison.
They're good for blocking bases on huge maps like CBTS, but that's pretty much it. Their low health, long build time, and high cost makes them unsuitable for anything else. It makes me cringe when I see someone say "the metagame just isn't there yet." You think players are going to get worse at spotting and stopping them?
Players aren't going to get worse, but there will be changes in the way the game is played over time. There could be additional patches in the future, or we might see an enterprising zerg player use nydus effectively and consistently in pro games. There could also be opportunities for nydus worms in newer maps.
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On March 02 2012 03:20 sevia wrote:
I don't get why people keep saying nyduses are useful as reinforcement points. Work on your creep spread and then you'll see how useful nyduses are in comparison.
They're good for blocking bases on huge maps like CBTS, but that's pretty much it. Their low health, long build time, and high cost makes them unsuitable for anything else. It makes me cringe when I see someone say "the metagame just isn't there yet." You think players are going to get worse at spotting and stopping them?
Make the sound optional, simple button click in game, and the main issue with Nydus goes away, and it would make it WAY harder to spot them. I don't think this makes it OP either considering all the other "issues" so many people have brought up that are a negative against Nydus as well.
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Because Blizzard doesn't want players to be surprised or have exciting volatile battles, so you get global sound effects for non-nuke events. Same reason detection is a commodity and splash units don't one-shot things, unfortunately.
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On March 02 2012 03:45 0neder wrote:
Because Blizzard doesn't want players to be surprised or have exciting volatile battles, so you get global sound effects for non-nuke events. Same reason detection is a commodity and splash units don't one-shot things, unfortunately.
So do you think it would make Nydus OP if the screech sound where optional in game? Does anyone else think that? I don't think it would, but I could be wrong, half the people on here say that good players have full view of their base so it shouldn't matter much there. I play random, but when I play zerg and I'm up against terran, I have to either scout or blindly prepare for banshees or DT's vs protoss, why shouldn't the other races have to worry about and prepare for some sort of sneaky attack from zerg in the early/mid part of the game?
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United States7483 Posts
On March 02 2012 01:02 BBQSAC wrote:
@ Whitewing
What time is this occuring then? Yes I'm not good at the game but for zerg to get lair, then nydus, then build the nydus in your base before you can possibly have more than one zealot, they can't have too much else. If it's an all-in then it should be kinda good vs such a greedy opening don't you agree? If it isn't an all-in and is a smooth transition into a standard mid game, then surely it would be the go-to opener for every zerg there is?
No, I don't agree. FFE is not greedy, and it's the only way for Protoss to keep up with zerg going into the mid-game. The only other way to take a fast base is with a much slower sentry expand, and zerg is way ahead at that point because he got his hatch up way earlier. FFE cedes map control and any form of early aggression for defense, that's not greedy, that's expensive.
Yes, it is an all-in, and no, it doesn't transition well, but if the nydus had a good chance of suceeding, zergs would do it every game vs. toss because if the lings get out of the worm, it's pretty much auto-win for zerg at that point.
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On March 02 2012 03:51 Dr_Hyde wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 02 2012 03:45 0neder wrote:
Because Blizzard doesn't want players to be surprised or have exciting volatile battles, so you get global sound effects for non-nuke events. Same reason detection is a commodity and splash units don't one-shot things, unfortunately. So do you think it would make Nydus OP if the screech sound where optional in game? Does anyone else think that? I don't think it would, but I could be wrong, half the people on here say that good players have full view of their base so it shouldn't matter much there. I play random, but when I play zerg and I'm up against terran, I have to either scout or blindly prepare for banshees or DT's vs protoss, why shouldn't the other races have to worry about and prepare for some sort of sneaky attack from zerg in the early/mid part of the game?
Removing the sound effect would partially raise the "skill cap" which people complain about so frequently. Requiring pro players to have full control and vision over their territory. If we were just talking pro players then I would absolutely 100% be in favour of the sound removal.
However
It might cause issues at lower levels and become a bit too much of an easy win button. Remembering that Blizzard takes all levels of play into account before they patch anything.
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United States7166 Posts
nydus networks/worms are the best underused thing in the game
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They need to be cheaper, let the network cost the same, but make each worm 100 minerals, it will make terrans and protoss scared like hell, just the same as we are scared of drops and prisms...
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itt: protoss and terrans are trying to tell zergs how to use nydus^^
if they remove:
- the sound
- the gas cost
- make the unload way faster
- give them more hp / don't show them on map
they will be more used. (And not just for trashy all ins).
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Here's my idea for the Nydus:
Upgrade costing 100/100 (subject to balance)
Nydus canal unloads/loads 100% faster, also: Make the nydus change the way it works slightly, the nydus will now act apon units pathing, for example i move a roach from my base to the enemys base the roach will automatically use the nydus if the distance is shorter. This can be turned off and on with a button on the nydus worm.
I think this will give the nydus worm more useage cause then you can put it at your rally points and then in the battle and have your units automatically join the battle, simular to a protoss warping in, however its still targetable so the enemy can pick it off if able.
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The questions I always ask myself when I play on ladder is
1 ) Why not use drops? Drops are less finnicky and more likely to actually deal damage. Also drops can have other uses other than transporting units ( dropping ultras on heavily meched terran or something)
2 ) If used defensively , why not make spines to stall for time and defend from there? Setting up pre-emptive nydus for something that may not even be coming . Also nydus gets taken down in a matter of seconds , 6 spines don't. ( less APM intensive + good static defense)
That being said , I still use nydus in ZvZ late game because overlord spreading is not something you want to do , especially if there are mutas out. Can be used for hatchery snipes at 4th / 5th base and easy retreat to defend the counter attack or just throw away the roaches and resupply with broods or something.
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On March 02 2012 04:30 kurrysauce wrote:
The questions I always ask myself when I play on ladder is
1 ) Why not use drops? Drops are less finnicky and more likely to actually deal damage. Also drops can have other uses other than transporting units ( dropping ultras on heavily meched terran or something)
2 ) If used defensively , why not make spines to stall for time and defend from there? Setting up pre-emptive nydus for something that may not even be coming . Also nydus gets taken down in a matter of seconds , 6 spines don't. ( less APM intensive + good static defense)
That being said , I still use nydus in ZvZ late game because overlord spreading is not something you want to do , especially if there are mutas out. Can be used for hatchery snipes at 4th / 5th base and easy retreat to defend the counter attack or just throw away the roaches and resupply with broods or something.
1) Drops aren't Nydus worms, though they can sometimes do the same thing. I can't drop without spending 30s of a unit's time in transporting it. A nydus worm only requires the time it takes to load/unload (which for say 20 roaches is only ~10s).
2) The army receiving the attack always has an advantage because they get to dictate the positioning of the fight. If you defend with spines and move to defend your base you are the player initiating the attack. If you Nydus and set-up to receive the attack then you get to dictate its positioning. This is doubly so when you need to initiate a fight within a certain time (like rushing back to defend a base) and can't setup or jockey for position so you might end up having to attack without a good flank/concave.
<3 Zelniq (and anyone who says Nydus worms are underused really).
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nydus costs too much and will never get up inside your enemies base if they're any good, the fact that a negligible (compared to cost of trying to make one) number of workers can kill it before it finishes makes it a very unattractive option, rather high risk without the guarantee of damage, what if they're just waiting outside of vision to trap w/e units u try to nydus in? if not then you probably do lots of damage but if so they kill all the units u sent, and the 200/200 nydus.
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On March 01 2012 13:47 Torte de Lini wrote:
Can't be canceled.
Expensive to build.
Expensive to make a Nydus.
Obvious and limited use.
units come out one at a time when you unload
this is basically the problems summed up pretty well. Although its worth noting that nydus is great for "power" units - infestors, hydras, etc, it really seems crippled for swarmy units like roach/ling comps. It should DEFINITELY unload more than 1 unit a time, the way it is now, it takes too long to unload 50 lings into someone's base... they hear the nydus and kill it with their workers.
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On March 01 2012 23:38 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 23:34 shizna wrote:
i think a cool change would be instead of the:
- blob on minimap while building
- screams when completed
it should be:
- no blob on minimap until completed
- screams when building
therefore the opponent will hear a scream and then has to urgently look around his base for the churning dirt without the aid of minimap.
i believe blizzard's original design is flawed... it's meant to be stealthy in that you place it in the corner of someone's base where they don't have vision so they can't see it on the minimap... but this almost never happens outside noob leagues because almost everyone positions creep, overlords, supply depots, pylons or something to grant vision in their base ALREADY because it's universally useful against pretty much every kind of harrass - drops, pylons, blink, nydus etc. No thats against what starcraft gameplay is, the scream is controversial not blob. Its like saying you shouldnt see medivac on minimap unless it unloads.
the scream is what gives it away not the blob? what.... if you hear the scream then the nydus is already freaking unloading in your base - one must be retarded to not see the nydus on minimap like 1 second after the scream.
if there was an instant scream, the zerg could comitting to a 2-3 simultaneous nydus play or it could be a decoy... whatever - you still have to manually search your bases to see where the nydus may be popping up because it will be hidden on the map until fully deployed.
the change i suggested is rediculously good... might even make nydus OP.
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On March 02 2012 04:53 darkscream wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 13:47 Torte de Lini wrote:
Can't be canceled.
Expensive to build.
Expensive to make a Nydus.
Obvious and limited use.
units come out one at a time when you unload this is basically the problems summed up pretty well. Although its worth noting that nydus is great for "power" units - infestors, hydras, etc, it really seems crippled for swarmy units like roach/ling comps. It should DEFINITELY unload more than 1 unit a time, the way it is now, it takes too long to unload 50 lings into someone's base... they hear the nydus and kill it with their workers.
Roaches are as efficient at using a nydus network as Hydras are (2pop/unload).
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On March 02 2012 03:51 Dr_Hyde wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 03:45 0neder wrote:
Because Blizzard doesn't want players to be surprised or have exciting volatile battles, so you get global sound effects for non-nuke events. Same reason detection is a commodity and splash units don't one-shot things, unfortunately. So do you think it would make Nydus OP if the screech sound where optional in game? Does anyone else think that? I don't think it would, but I could be wrong, half the people on here say that good players have full view of their base so it shouldn't matter much there. I play random, but when I play zerg and I'm up against terran, I have to either scout or blindly prepare for banshees or DT's vs protoss, why shouldn't the other races have to worry about and prepare for some sort of sneaky attack from zerg in the early/mid part of the game?
Preparing for banshees and DT's is a lot different from having an entire zerg army swarm into your base unexpectedly.
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On March 02 2012 04:24 NostalgiaTag wrote:
Here's my idea for the Nydus:
Upgrade costing 100/100 (subject to balance)
Nydus canal unloads/loads 100% faster, also: Make the nydus change the way it works slightly, the nydus will now act apon units pathing, for example i move a roach from my base to the enemys base the roach will automatically use the nydus if the distance is shorter. This can be turned off and on with a button on the nydus worm.
I think this will give the nydus worm more useage cause then you can put it at your rally points and then in the battle and have your units automatically join the battle, simular to a protoss warping in, however its still targetable so the enemy can pick it off if able.
This is actually a pretty smart thing to add :O. Never thought about the auto use of nydus if distance is shorter. If they add this i think its gonna be a little bit easier to use. Right now, its too hard to use, costs gas and unloads very slow.
Only problem would be drones mining back and forth by nydus xD but i guess they can fix that.
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i remember checkprime used to do some kooky nydus stuff against toss late game, where he had like 3-4 nyduses around the map and run around pop up and kill shit, it was sick
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this sounds like the warp prism argument.
let's lower the cost of a nydus worm, what is it 100 gas? let's make a warp prism patch and make it 50 gas and see what players do with it.
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EPT
