EPTWhy is the Nydus Worm underused? - Page 13
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vthree
Hong Kong8039 Posts
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Buddhism101
United States59 Posts
On March 02 2012 02:24 vthree wrote: Buddism, in your vid, your supply is basically double your opponents. Pretty much any attack would have killed him. It doesn't really show the viablility of nydus when your macro is so much better. You are correct, that doesn't speak to the concept though, like I said, it works through Low Masters at least (a majority of the time too) | ||
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sandg
Australia123 Posts
Everyone wonders why nydus isn't used that much, I wondered the same thing myself, so I tried to incorporate nydus into a great deal of my matchups. All it proved was why they are ineffective in the majority of situations: it stopped being a useful strat once I hit diamond lol. | ||
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Makura
United States317 Posts
I also see Idra use it in a 2 base hydra all in with a forward nydus rather than an in base nydus (into eventually an in base nydus) with great success You don't see it often in tournament cause its really cheesy / all-in-ish In terms of late game, I believe it is very viable just cause it really tasks each players multitasking ability and the last time i remember it being used well was Idra vs Puma on Shattered at ASUS IEM china if you'd like to see how that works. In theory its usable for expanding to islands or just very large maps in general although weighing that against the 300/300 is a lil questionable. | ||
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
On March 02 2012 02:24 vthree wrote: Buddism, in your vid, your supply is basically double your opponents. Pretty much any attack would have killed him. It doesn't really show the viablility of nydus when your macro is so much better. then again, he did use roaches so he is expected to have way more supply than your enemy. | ||
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idonthinksobro
3138 Posts
There are also some hydra allins that use a nydus in front of a base but it is rather weak on huge maps because you cant reeinforce quick enough with the nydus. On smaller maps it is usually better to build an overlord creep highway and make more queens if your plan is to hydra allin anyway. also you can't cancel it and it is super expensive. | ||
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latan
740 Posts
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Arghnews
United Kingdom169 Posts
The worm itself is very gas expensive for it's low life, Mr.Bitter once said it should cost 250 minerals and no gas, or something, which I think is a great idea. Requires great APM to utilise effectively for 2/3 pronged attack, drops can be shift queued to a mineral line. Zerg units are not cost efficient in very low numbers. 8 marines can kill alot of stuff, and workers really fast. 16 lings unloaded slowly may kill some stuff, but you must get there first. Granted you may get alot of workers more cheaply though. Maps are not so big that movement is such a huge issue. For toss warp ins and zerg with creep, nydus vs. a terran could be good, but there are still many ways to counter. Still will never be as useful as a drop. Deathball issue, discussed before. Especially as zerg, losing any units from your already fairly poor deathball is going to hurt, and I'm talking to mid to early-late game, not when Broods are out and zerg deathball is OK. | ||
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Xyik
Canada728 Posts
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sPlosH
20 Posts
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Cynry
810 Posts
Yes, we KNOW it's not going to work at high level of play when you just try to pop it in your opponent's base. Maybe we can get over this and try to think of when it could work ? Like, few days ago, it may be Ret vs Puma or some GSL game, where the zerg did a massive runby with all his lings and mutas, only to have his lings crushed by the terran force when it came home. What if while attacking the main, the zerg poped a nydus in terran's base to secure a retreat path ? With 50+ lings in your base, it's not like a couple of workers could kill it, and the loading time is rather quick. Also, we have seen some hydra pushes with nydus fail horribly. What about going for it the other way around ? You push with a larger force of hydras (cause you didn't invest in nydus as early as usual) and again, use nydus to secure a retreat path ? I remember an old game on metalopolis, ZvP, both Koreans, where the zerg used 2 nydus network to completely outmaneuver the protoss deathball. The thing is, and it will be even more true the larger the maps get, you don't even need to have it really close to the guy's bases, as long as it makes any trip shorter it is something to consider in a late game scenario. Plus, at these level, it taxes multitask as much as drops, especially if used as a multi-pronged tactic. Furthermore, I read some people dissing the unload time by telling it's a nightmare with lings or something. Lings in nydus, really ? If you want to have some lings in a walled-in base, that's what drops are for. Although I agree that the unload time is rather slow, it shouldn't be an issue if the nydus is used properly and for units that really need fast transportation (infestors, queens, hydras, that's pretty much it. Maybe ultras). | ||
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idonthinksobro
3138 Posts
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
The one big use I've seen for them is latelate game ZvT where you can drop a worm in the main while you're trucking the center with infestor/BL which can allow you to pick off tech labs to slow down ghost production (and if you're lucky you might grab an upgrading building or sensor tower). | ||
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
(infestors, queens, hydras, that's pretty much it. Maybe ultras). All these units can also be dropped. In the case of infestors ists even better to drop them, because nothing screams "scan your F-ing base!" as loud as a nydus. Drop them, burrow them, maybe wait a bit, drop your IT/fungals and back off. No need for a nydus there. Leaves us with Queens and hydras. If you want to spread creep, you can also drop a queen and vomit with your Overlord, for transfuse: no difference. Leaves us with hydras. Yes Hydras are the unit which profits a ton from nydus play. But Hydras are not exactly that popular in TvZ. They are sometimes used in ZvZ. They are used in PvZ... for all-ins, for timing attacks, for base defense. They are not used in lategame szenarios. | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 02 2012 02:53 Cynry wrote: Why does everyone just say the same stuff over and over again when talking about nydus ? Yes, we KNOW it's not going to work at high level of play when you just try to pop it in your opponent's base. Maybe we can get over this and try to think of when it could work ? Like, few days ago, it may be Ret vs Puma or some GSL game, where the zerg did a massive runby with all his lings and mutas, only to have his lings crushed by the terran force when it came home. What if while attacking the main, the zerg poped a nydus in terran's base to secure a retreat path ? With 50+ lings in your base, it's not like a couple of workers could kill it, and the loading time is rather quick. Also, we have seen some hydra pushes with nydus fail horribly. What about going for it the other way around ? You push with a larger force of hydras (cause you didn't invest in nydus as early as usual) and again, use nydus to secure a retreat path ? I remember an old game on metalopolis, ZvP, both Koreans, where the zerg used 2 nydus network to completely outmaneuver the protoss deathball. The thing is, and it will be even more true the larger the maps get, you don't even need to have it really close to the guy's bases, as long as it makes any trip shorter it is something to consider in a late game scenario. Plus, at these level, it taxes multitask as much as drops, especially if used as a multi-pronged tactic. Furthermore, I read some people dissing the unload time by telling it's a nightmare with lings or something. Lings in nydus, really ? If you want to have some lings in a walled-in base, that's what drops are for. Although I agree that the unload time is rather slow, it shouldn't be an issue if the nydus is used properly and for units that really need fast transportation (infestors, queens, hydras, that's pretty much it. Maybe ultras). why do you post stuff that has been discussed over and over again? | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
On March 02 2012 02:53 Cynry wrote: Why does everyone just say the same stuff over and over again when talking about nydus ? Yes, we KNOW it's not going to work at high level of play when you just try to pop it in your opponent's base. Maybe we can get over this and try to think of when it could work ? Like, few days ago, it may be Ret vs Puma or some GSL game, where the zerg did a massive runby with all his lings and mutas, only to have his lings crushed by the terran force when it came home. What if while attacking the main, the zerg poped a nydus in terran's base to secure a retreat path ? With 50+ lings in your base, it's not like a couple of workers could kill it, and the loading time is rather quick. Also, we have seen some hydra pushes with nydus fail horribly. What about going for it the other way around ? You push with a larger force of hydras (cause you didn't invest in nydus as early as usual) and again, use nydus to secure a retreat path ? I remember an old game on metalopolis, ZvP, both Koreans, where the zerg used 2 nydus network to completely outmaneuver the protoss deathball. The thing is, and it will be even more true the larger the maps get, you don't even need to have it really close to the guy's bases, as long as it makes any trip shorter it is something to consider in a late game scenario. Plus, at these level, it taxes multitask as much as drops, especially if used as a multi-pronged tactic. Furthermore, I read some people dissing the unload time by telling it's a nightmare with lings or something. Lings in nydus, really ? If you want to have some lings in a walled-in base, that's what drops are for. Although I agree that the unload time is rather slow, it shouldn't be an issue if the nydus is used properly and for units that really need fast transportation (infestors, queens, hydras, that's pretty much it. Maybe ultras). Yeah I agree with your post. The problem is I think most of the people here aren't even reading the thread. They just come and make a post with their assumptions and then move on. | ||
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MrTortoise
1388 Posts
They also unload too slow. I get why there is a slow unload rate or else 10 ultras int here would be a little silly on the other end. But lings take sooo long to get out 4 marines can probably hold 200 food of lings coming out of 1 ... and 4 workers can kill it before it spawns. One problem i have with z lategame is that its big units eat a *lot* of food ... a 200 z army is like 5 bl, 5 ultras 27 lings maybe af ew infestors. That is far more easy to make nydus work with. | ||
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sevia
United States954 Posts
They're good for blocking bases on huge maps like CBTS, but that's pretty much it. Their low health, long build time, and high cost makes them unsuitable for anything else. It makes me cringe when I see someone say "the metagame just isn't there yet." You think players are going to get worse at spotting and stopping them? | ||
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DoubleReed
United States4130 Posts
On March 02 2012 03:20 sevia wrote: I don't get why people keep saying nyduses are useful as reinforcement points. Work on your creep spread and then you'll see how useful nyduses are in comparison. They're good for blocking bases on huge maps like CBTS, but that's pretty much it. Their low health, long build time, and high cost makes them unsuitable for anything else. It makes me cringe when I see someone say "the metagame just isn't there yet." You think players are going to get worse at spotting and stopping them? You're assuming that they have to be used to get into a base. They can also be used to allow an overextended force to retreat. | ||
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