|
On March 01 2012 23:55 Big J wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On March 01 2012 23:16 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 23:01 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 22:35 shizna wrote:
i still think people are thinking about it wrong.... it should not be compared to dropship - it should be compared to nuking.
making it cheaper just so people use it more often would be gamebreaking, like making nuke cheaper or making the ghost more hardy when deploying a nuke.
imo it's job is to break a stalemate situation. it's difficult to nydus when opponent denies vision, but it's hard to nuke when opponent has detection all over the place as well - yet nuking is still amazing at breaking stalemates.
most zerg just attack repeatedly until they win or lose, if they set up for a stalemate then nydus would come into play. Yeah, Nydus has good use at that stage. But I'm not sure if the downside of playing this strategy does not outweigth the potential of nydussing everywhere in such stalemates: You are basically giving up on the idea of building an army that can fight your opponents endgame army directly, but go for something along the lines of lings/Ultras/roaches/hydras basetrade instead. (depending on what you were teching to) Not sure though, haven't seen it a lot of times, nor used it a lot of times in such situations, and the times I used it like this, it felt like I was trading expensive ultras and nydus-ressources vs buildings. I'm pretty torn on that... I have tried it, and it leads to impressive shortterm results (stomping a base for the cost of some units/ressources), but usually ends with my opponent rolling over my ultrabased army (that's how I think it works best, due to ultras being good vs buildings and easy to load and unload). well i always thought the intended situation was that a fortified terran army cannot be beaten head-on. yet most zerg players still think "i need lotsa broodlords and infestors and then a-move, cos i watched GSL and thats how you win!". no, it's never preferable to attack into someone's defensive position.... you should only do it when you're forced to, for example you're contained and don't have time to drop/harrass etc. okay most maps are zerg friendly because you can flank easily enough that you don't need nydus... but on maps like metropolis, antiga and shakuras that zergs are constantly crying about - imagine the end game nydus potential against a turtle style... the super defensive map layout makes it even more difficult to defend nydus as well. you just need to increase the number of simultaneous nydus to 2-3, in seperate locations, then you massively increase the chance of success. you don't even need to commit ultralisks to a nydus... cracklings have higher dps for cost/supply than stimmed marines. plus the idea is that you retreat before your units die anyway. alike any harrass technique, if the opponent reacts well to it then get your units the F out of there before they all die... there's no such thing as zerg 'swarm' in SC2. if zerg loses units then he'll probably lose the game to an immediate counter attack. sry, but why would it be intented that Terran max cannot be beaten head on? I mean, it was not even like that in BW and fortified Terran was probably more scary there and stalemate balance probably not as important as in SC2. Especially, as the usual endgame army of Zerg is designed around the broodlord, which is meant to be a position (tank) breaking unit. Add Vikings and Infestors and whatever you think is best in such scenarios and you got yourself a nice micro match with the defending player having a good advantage due to how siege tanks work (13range, but have to unsiege). About maps... there are winrate numbers for each map, which is as good as we can determine balance for them. If they are off, the map should be considered favored, if not, then the map is definatly not something like "zergfriendly". Though on second thought, I agree... Terran has >50% winrate vs Zerg, making any map that is >50% for Zerg "zergfriendly", while the racial balancing seems generally "terranfriendly". Though on 3rd thought, I think we shouldn't complain about +/- 5% imbalance at all... But well... Just because Antiga, Shakuras etc disfavor certain styles, it doesn't really make Nydus stronger. Cracklings problem with nydus is unloading and loading the nydus again. A Nydus still only loads up 4cracklings per second (unloads 2 per second), which makes retreating close to impossible. You need like 4nydus worms in one location. Also not losing anything when nydusing is a nice thought, but it's just not doable, just like losing nothing when droping or harassing with air is undoable. The best way to minimize the losses with Nydus is the use of more worms and big units, which brings me back to: you should go ultra with it.
Yeah this is the biggest problem with nydus worming as a method for multipronged attacks, they unload SO slowly, so you've gotta be on top of when you're using them for transport. Gotta go ultra/queen for the ones in his main, and that's assuming the other guy actually lets it finish.
|
On March 01 2012 23:43 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
People think nydus should be something like "I use it on top of my opponents army/base and get whole army in it and eventually win game, otherwise this nydus thing is bullshit and useless", sadly nydus isnt supposed to be used like that which many people fail to realise.
Nydus was dying fast in BW as well and was used A LOT for connecting bases and now you have option to use it on offensive positions and in your opponents base and people whine that it got too low hp and is too much of a cost to build in the first place.
Again, Nydus was created for connecting bases on big maps and 2 base allins that we already saw A LOT of times in ZvP, we saw it in ZvZ as well few times and in ZvT (EVEN in GSL).
People suggesting that it should have MORE hp, what is protoss supposed to do after forge FE vs nydus? kill it with what except probes?
If protoss has nothing but probes when a nydus comes out,even after FFE, what in the fuck has he been doing? It's faster to move everything but hydras normally from base to base normally unless you are being attacked in which case the nydus is even more of a hinderance and as zerg you're probably gonna sac the base anyway. The point about them dying to quickly is that after the noise tells your opponent a nydus has gone off you can kill it with about 6 probes before it pops.
|
On March 01 2012 23:43 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
People think nydus should be something like "I use it on top of my opponents army/base and get whole army in it and eventually win game, otherwise this nydus thing is bullshit and useless", sadly nydus isnt supposed to be used like that which many people fail to realise.
Nydus was dying fast in BW as well and was used A LOT for connecting bases and now you have option to use it on offensive positions and in your opponents base and people whine that it got too low hp and is too much of a cost to build in the first place.
Again, Nydus was created for connecting bases on big maps and 2 base allins that we already saw A LOT of times in ZvP, we saw it in ZvZ as well few times and in ZvT (EVEN in GSL).
People suggesting that it should have MORE hp, what is protoss supposed to do after forge FE vs nydus? kill it with what except probes?
in BW a Nydus didn't cost any gas, also it had a fixed entry and exit point (so no unloading micro while you are in battle, just rally to the nydus and they will pop up automatically on the other side).
If i have to spend 300+ gas early-mid game just to connect bases, it is usually not worth it:
a) if my opponent does not find any nydus in his base he will automatically know that i took a base that is somewhat harder to defend (island expo, or expo on his side)
b) i could just creep spread there for the same effect
late-game, i don't know either. I rather spend 200 gas on drops and can backstabb all i want all game long, even when i want to backstabb a base that has worker mining (which is often times not possible with nydus lol). And i rather lose 2 overlords on each drop than a nydus which costs a ton of gas. Plus, overlord drop gives me baneling drop options (can be used offensive) plus the base retreat option (load in drones and get away), and i will at most lose some minerals doing it, not my precious gas.
As for the nydus cheese with hydras (+roaches/lings): Usually my opponent will notice the nydus in his base, therefore i can only nydus again in front of his base (and pretty much lose all the time from this point on). If i spend those 300/300 on OL speed and dropship, i will make a creep highway for my hydras if necessary, and i am sure to get my hydras into his base. Also it saves 100/100 compared to the nydus variant where i have to use another nydus outside his base.
As for the few-units vs all-army unload:
with overlords i just elevator my army up. It is fairly quick and once i attack i can drop my units on top of my enemy (which is priceless vs protoss forcefield/building blocks/colossus)
|
On March 01 2012 23:38 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 23:34 shizna wrote:
i think a cool change would be instead of the:
- blob on minimap while building
- screams when completed
it should be:
- no blob on minimap until completed
- screams when building
therefore the opponent will hear a scream and then has to urgently look around his base for the churning dirt without the aid of minimap.
i believe blizzard's original design is flawed... it's meant to be stealthy in that you place it in the corner of someone's base where they don't have vision so they can't see it on the minimap... but this almost never happens outside noob leagues because almost everyone positions creep, overlords, supply depots, pylons or something to grant vision in their base ALREADY because it's universally useful against pretty much every kind of harrass - drops, pylons, blink, nydus etc. No thats against what starcraft gameplay is, the scream is controversial not blob. Its like saying you shouldnt see medivac on minimap unless it unloads.
no blob can easily be reasoned by the fact that its burrowed.
|
On March 02 2012 00:00 BBQSAC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 23:43 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
People think nydus should be something like "I use it on top of my opponents army/base and get whole army in it and eventually win game, otherwise this nydus thing is bullshit and useless", sadly nydus isnt supposed to be used like that which many people fail to realise.
Nydus was dying fast in BW as well and was used A LOT for connecting bases and now you have option to use it on offensive positions and in your opponents base and people whine that it got too low hp and is too much of a cost to build in the first place.
Again, Nydus was created for connecting bases on big maps and 2 base allins that we already saw A LOT of times in ZvP, we saw it in ZvZ as well few times and in ZvT (EVEN in GSL).
People suggesting that it should have MORE hp, what is protoss supposed to do after forge FE vs nydus? kill it with what except probes? If protoss has nothing but probes when a nydus comes out,even after FFE, what in the fuck has he been doing? It's faster to move everything but hydras normally from base to base normally unless you are being attacked in which case the nydus is even more of a hinderance and as zerg you're probably gonna sac the base anyway. The point about them dying to quickly is that after the noise tells your opponent a nydus has gone off you can kill it with about 6 probes before it pops.
Ever heard of ling nydus?
|
The fact that workers can kill it, is why pros never use it. Too much investment, and even if it completes units can just target it down.
Even though you could use it to effectiveness in probably Diamond and lower, people never see it used by pros, therefore it isn't part of the strategies that people are picking. If someone managed to win some cool GSL games with it, or in MLG, someone like DRG or Leenock, I bet they would start popping up on the ladder a bunch too.
|
I think they will become more useful as the metagame progresses, but the one thing I'd patch if I were Blizzard is make worms cancellable. Maybe make worms a bit cheaper. In BW zerg would make tons of nydus canals to effectively defend remote bases, but this was mostly based on Dark Swarm in the lategame, while in SC2, zerg defends mostly based on the speed of zerglings.
IMO it could be very useful defensively, but to use them effectively on the offense probably requires huge amounts of skill and APM, you'd need multiple worms in many places, and that is expensive as hell too.
|
On March 02 2012 00:10 cursor wrote:
The fact that workers can kill it, is why pros never use it. Too much investment, and even if it completes units can just target it down.
Even though you could use it to effectiveness in probably Diamond and lower, people never see it used by pros, therefore it isn't part of the strategies that people are picking. If someone managed to win some cool GSL games with it, or in MLG, someone like DRG or Leenock, I bet they would start popping up on the ladder a bunch too.
Leenock won MVP with Nydus 2 base play -.- IN GSL.
|
On March 02 2012 00:09 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 00:00 BBQSAC wrote:On March 01 2012 23:43 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
People think nydus should be something like "I use it on top of my opponents army/base and get whole army in it and eventually win game, otherwise this nydus thing is bullshit and useless", sadly nydus isnt supposed to be used like that which many people fail to realise.
Nydus was dying fast in BW as well and was used A LOT for connecting bases and now you have option to use it on offensive positions and in your opponents base and people whine that it got too low hp and is too much of a cost to build in the first place.
Again, Nydus was created for connecting bases on big maps and 2 base allins that we already saw A LOT of times in ZvP, we saw it in ZvZ as well few times and in ZvT (EVEN in GSL).
People suggesting that it should have MORE hp, what is protoss supposed to do after forge FE vs nydus? kill it with what except probes? If protoss has nothing but probes when a nydus comes out,even after FFE, what in the fuck has he been doing? It's faster to move everything but hydras normally from base to base normally unless you are being attacked in which case the nydus is even more of a hinderance and as zerg you're probably gonna sac the base anyway. The point about them dying to quickly is that after the noise tells your opponent a nydus has gone off you can kill it with about 6 probes before it pops. Ever heard of ling nydus?
as in rush for nydus to get lings in their base? even my crappy, gold, off-race protoss has a zealot and a couple of sentries by then. I'm not saying nydus is terrible by the way, they are fun do just drop around the map for super fast creep spread, counter attacks and just generally annoying your opponent and making them worry about stuff. Some tweaking could make them much more interesting (think the warp prism buff)
|
The nydus itself is not the issue. Zerg doesn't have any unit that is worth transporting into it. In BW you could use it for defensive purpose with dark swarm and lurkers that could actually hold ground until your army arrives. In Starcraft 2 its better to just sack your expansion and counter with slings by running into his natural/main or defend it with your whole army.
The best use of a nydus I have seen is for the fear factor and to spread creep to prevent expansions. You can nydus and creep tumour Terran/Protoss third/fourth to slow them down. But I don't think its worth it since you can't hold a position with zerg except broodlords and those are way to late and doesn't require a nydus.
I guess if a nydus could transport brood lords, that would be a really good utility for it late game.
|
United States7483 Posts
On March 02 2012 00:26 BBQSAC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 00:09 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:On March 02 2012 00:00 BBQSAC wrote:On March 01 2012 23:43 Empire.Beastyqt wrote:
People think nydus should be something like "I use it on top of my opponents army/base and get whole army in it and eventually win game, otherwise this nydus thing is bullshit and useless", sadly nydus isnt supposed to be used like that which many people fail to realise.
Nydus was dying fast in BW as well and was used A LOT for connecting bases and now you have option to use it on offensive positions and in your opponents base and people whine that it got too low hp and is too much of a cost to build in the first place.
Again, Nydus was created for connecting bases on big maps and 2 base allins that we already saw A LOT of times in ZvP, we saw it in ZvZ as well few times and in ZvT (EVEN in GSL).
People suggesting that it should have MORE hp, what is protoss supposed to do after forge FE vs nydus? kill it with what except probes? If protoss has nothing but probes when a nydus comes out,even after FFE, what in the fuck has he been doing? It's faster to move everything but hydras normally from base to base normally unless you are being attacked in which case the nydus is even more of a hinderance and as zerg you're probably gonna sac the base anyway. The point about them dying to quickly is that after the noise tells your opponent a nydus has gone off you can kill it with about 6 probes before it pops. Ever heard of ling nydus? as in rush for nydus to get lings in their base? even my crappy, gold, off-race protoss has a zealot and a couple of sentries by then. I'm not saying nydus is terrible by the way, they are fun do just drop around the map for super fast creep spread, counter attacks and just generally annoying your opponent and making them worry about stuff. Some tweaking could make them much more interesting (think the warp prism buff)
You have no idea what you're talking about, Beastyqt is correct. Nydus rushes can have the worm building shortly after you have one zealot: that worm goes down on the opposite side of the base when you only have a zealot out and you aren't stopping it if it has a health buff.
|
As many people said:
It's supposed to get units from point A to point B quickly.
With the exception of hydralisks most zerg units would arrive at B more quickly if they'd just walk there, because the unload time is so long and goes 1-by-1 which makes cheap small units much worse to use with it than, say, ultras and infestors.
I guess if you could use it with Brood Lords that would make a lot of sense, either for a quick retreat or offensively.
|
Nydus was used at GSL code A on match 1 betwen Zenio and STC on Entombed valley. Zenio nydused sC's base to force his army to break its postioning and then he attacked same time to STC's fourth base succesfully killing the planetary fortress, while lings where killing production buildings of sC.
|
@ Whitewing
What time is this occuring then? Yes I'm not good at the game but for zerg to get lair, then nydus, then build the nydus in your base before you can possibly have more than one zealot, they can't have too much else. If it's an all-in then it should be kinda good vs such a greedy opening don't you agree? If it isn't an all-in and is a smooth transition into a standard mid game, then surely it would be the go-to opener for every zerg there is?
|
Zerg units kind of suck in straight up fights. Nydus worming into a Terran base generally means you're going to have a ton of chokes created by the unit producing structures and the bio will simply murder whatever comes out. Granted I think they're under utilized since they are pretty cheap (Terrans throw nukes everywhere with little intention of it actually working) but I can understand the new vogue of Zerg just wanting a Tier3 deathball.
|
On March 02 2012 00:41 Tef wrote:
The nydus itself is not the issue. Zerg doesn't have any unit that is worth transporting into it. In BW you could use it for defensive purpose with dark swarm and lurkers that could actually hold ground until your army arrives. In Starcraft 2 its better to just sack your expansion and counter with slings by running into his natural/main or defend it with your whole army.
The best use of a nydus I have seen is for the fear factor and to spread creep to prevent expansions. You can nydus and creep tumour Terran/Protoss third/fourth to slow them down. But I don't think its worth it since you can't hold a position with zerg except broodlords and those are way to late and doesn't require a nydus.
I guess if a nydus could transport brood lords, that would be a really good utility for it late game.
I really like when you mentioned that you could throw it down at a third or fourth base. I like it because if terran or protoss hear the scream and acknowledge it then they move their army out of position to respond to it, leaving them open to either a counter attack, drop in main, or even a head on attack if the third forces a choke or some disadvantage for the defender.
Perhaps that something of a function fixedness, we feel that the cost must give us some visible benefit. I think you could attempt to use the nydus like a warp prism/pylon essentially, drop a nydus a ways away from the base, go in for the attack rally all your reinforcements to the nydus and as you're continuing the attack your reinforcements come semi-instantly, rather then requiring a creep highway.
anyways just food for thought.
|
Recently streams with nydrusworms:
Today: Morrow when making his "spawnpoint" of his hydras closer.
Yesterday: GLSnute with huge success! He had alot of gas tho so he made like loads of infestors and nydrus to spend it, was really cool tho and his control is imba (no hotkeys wtf?)
Else: Before spanishiwa made his analys things on stream i saw him do some roachstrat including nydrus.
I've also seen Psy make use of it a couple of times when a protoss is greedy and cannonrushes when he FFE's, then he makes a 1 base nydrus/roach attack in the protoss main, it's a bit cheesy tho  For those of you who dont know him he do play against good players on the ladder such as kiwikaki and ret!
|
im kinda proud of how i used one recently, zvp i decided to go for a counterattack since my army composition was crap. so while tearing up the opponents base i build a nydus inside so i could have a retreat option when his army came back to defend. I ended up losing the game (probes are imba in base trades) but i felt like a genius at that moment.
|
Glad BeastyQ gets it at least.
The rest of this thread is sad. People are just regurgiating what other people say because they said it OR they try to play the way they normally play + build nydus and then fail horribly and assume its bad OR they're just bad at spacial reasoning and don't understand the concept of map control besides their opponent's main. Also to be fair the original map pool was horrible for nydus because the maps were so small.
Banelings were also bad versus protoss for the longest time, but then suddenly people started making a playstyle around them (dropping them via overlords) rather than trying to use the same strategy + banelings. Nydus are the same freaking way. You can't just play + use nydus and expect success, you have to actually learn how to use it and how to make a (non-cheese) strategy around it.
The closest thing to a legitimate problem that nydus have right now is that almost every Zerg army right now relies in part on zerglings (the worst unit for nydus use because they're fast and come out slowly). It'd be nice if they made it so lings pop out 2/time from a worm lol.
With the exception of hydralisks most zerg units would arrive at B more quickly if they'd just walk there, because the unload time is so long and goes 1-by-1 which makes cheap small units much worse to use with it than, say, ultras and infestors.
Not true.
-You ignore that units can do something, then enter & exit the worm once it's built where as by going from point A -> point B they're ONLY travelling.
-You ignore that A->B may not always be safe. For example if your T opponent has siege tanks mid map you can't run units safely past, but there's 1/4th of the map to put a nydus in and your opponent would be hardpressed to keep all of it scouted all the time.
-You ignore that after the worm is built the travel time is dramatically reduced because it's just load/unload time.
-Walking is all or nothing. If B is 30s away then from t=0 to t=30 you have nothing attacking that location, with worms you have an attack that's constantly ramping up. So from t=20->t=30
-There's no indication of an imminent attack until the worm finishes, with walking your opponent is much more likely to spot it coming because they know where you have to move to walk from point a to point b, but there's a staggering # of locations you can put a worm.
If the entrance and exit are 30s apart (judged by the unit walking the distance) you can get 20 units from point A to point B faster than you can by walking them if you include the time to build the worm. That's 20 roaches, quite enough to sack an expansion. If you don't count the time to build the worm (which you can in many cases ignore if your units do other things while the worm is building) then you can get 60 units or 120 population of roaches from point a to point b faster than walking. 30s for roaches on bigger maps really isn't that far.
|
Underused because you can get overlord speed and drops for the same price as the building and 1 deployment. There is less risk with overlord drops also.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
