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On March 01 2012 22:35 shizna wrote:
i still think people are thinking about it wrong.... it should not be compared to dropship - it should be compared to nuking.
making it cheaper just so people use it more often would be gamebreaking, like making nuke cheaper or making the ghost more hardy when deploying a nuke.
imo it's job is to break a stalemate situation. it's difficult to nydus when opponent denies vision, but it's hard to nuke when opponent has detection all over the place as well - yet nuking is still amazing at breaking stalemates.
most zerg just attack repeatedly until they win or lose, if they set up for a stalemate then nydus would come into play.
Yeah, Nydus has good use at that stage. But I'm not sure if the downside of playing this strategy does not outweigth the potential of nydussing everywhere in such stalemates:
You are basically giving up on the idea of building an army that can fight your opponents endgame army directly, but go for something along the lines of lings/Ultras/roaches/hydras basetrade instead. (depending on what you were teching to)
Not sure though, haven't seen it a lot of times, nor used it a lot of times in such situations, and the times I used it like this, it felt like I was trading expensive ultras and nydus-ressources vs buildings. I'm pretty torn on that... I have tried it, and it leads to impressive shortterm results (stomping a base for the cost of some units/ressources), but usually ends with my opponent rolling over my ultrabased army (that's how I think it works best, due to ultras being good vs buildings and easy to load and unload).
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On March 01 2012 22:57 TheLOLas wrote:
Hasn't there already been a million threads on this topic? The Nydus is a really cool unit, but it has plenty of limitations. Such as its slow build time, how easy it is to kill, it can't be canceled, unloading takes a while. But they are still pretty cool and useful.
Maybe if they increase the amount of worms that could spawn. Currently it's for every network, 1 worm can spawn at a time.
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I'm sure it has been posted before, but having 6-8 workers pull off a mineral line isn't a great transaction if you were actually intending on doing something with a nydus. 6-8 workers off the mineral line is all it takes to kill it. Didn't read through the entire thread, so sorry for posting something stupid. With good creep spread, there is also less use for the nydus, take into consideration the ridic time it takes to load units and then unload them. I main zerg. It's pretty fucking stupid long. Might as well run shit from one side of the map to the other.
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On March 01 2012 23:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 22:35 shizna wrote:
i still think people are thinking about it wrong.... it should not be compared to dropship - it should be compared to nuking.
making it cheaper just so people use it more often would be gamebreaking, like making nuke cheaper or making the ghost more hardy when deploying a nuke.
imo it's job is to break a stalemate situation. it's difficult to nydus when opponent denies vision, but it's hard to nuke when opponent has detection all over the place as well - yet nuking is still amazing at breaking stalemates.
most zerg just attack repeatedly until they win or lose, if they set up for a stalemate then nydus would come into play. Yeah, Nydus has good use at that stage. But I'm not sure if the downside of playing this strategy does not outweigth the potential of nydussing everywhere in such stalemates: You are basically giving up on the idea of building an army that can fight your opponents endgame army directly, but go for something along the lines of lings/Ultras/roaches/hydras basetrade instead. (depending on what you were teching to) Not sure though, haven't seen it a lot of times, nor used it a lot of times in such situations, and the times I used it like this, it felt like I was trading expensive ultras and nydus-ressources vs buildings. I'm pretty torn on that... I have tried it, and it leads to impressive shortterm results (stomping a base for the cost of some units/ressources), but usually ends with my opponent rolling over my ultrabased army (that's how I think it works best, due to ultras being good vs buildings and easy to load and unload).
well i always thought the intended situation was that a fortified terran army cannot be beaten head-on.
yet most zerg players still think "i need lotsa broodlords and infestors and then a-move, cos i watched GSL and thats how you win!".
no, it's never preferable to attack into someone's defensive position.... you should only do it when you're forced to, for example you're contained and don't have time to drop/harrass etc.
okay most maps are zerg friendly because you can flank easily enough that you don't need nydus... but on maps like metropolis, antiga and shakuras that zergs are constantly crying about - imagine the end game nydus potential against a turtle style... the super defensive map layout makes it even more difficult to defend nydus as well.
you just need to increase the number of simultaneous nydus to 2-3, in seperate locations, then you massively increase the chance of success.
you don't even need to commit ultralisks to a nydus... cracklings have higher dps for cost/supply than stimmed marines. plus the idea is that you retreat before your units die anyway. alike any harrass technique, if the opponent reacts well to it then get your units the F out of there before they all die...
there's no such thing as zerg 'swarm' in SC2. if zerg loses units then he'll probably lose the game to an immediate counter attack.
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On March 01 2012 21:57 greenknight999 wrote:
Too expensive.
Imagine if a terran was guaranteed to lose their medivac on every drop and chances are it wont even be able to unload first.
By the time I can afford it, I don't need it. Why Nydus when for broadly similar cost you can ovie transport?
Maps too small for defensive use.
imagine if terran could do a whole army doom drop in 1 medivac....
if you want to do terran style drops use overlords, if you want to move your whole army use a nydus
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Here's an idea: don't build them in the enemy base.
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That doesn't make them more useful, lol. It just makes the building itself not make any sense at all. These aren't sc:bw maps we're playing. The nydus distance isn't great on any 1:! map if the z has creep spread. It's just really not worth consideration.
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On March 01 2012 23:24 Batssa wrote:
That doesn't make them more useful, lol. It just makes the building itself not make any sense at all. These aren't sc:bw maps we're playing. The nydus distance isn't great on any 1:! map if the z has creep spread. It's just really not worth consideration.
Yes it is. It can be used for defensive purposes as well as late game harass and it gives the zerg the ability to rally reinforcements quicker if placed well (much like warp in reinforcements with a pylon).
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Ugh... the nydus pushes out units like a dropship, not like a warp in. That would be sick and fucking awesome if it were the case. Push units into the nydus (if you can luckily get it up in a decent position) and shit out the units immediately before it dies (mind you, late game alot of shit goes on, a medivac dropping four marines at a defensive nydus location -- which you seem to believe exists -- would be very easy). Unfortunately, that's not how it works =(.
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lol there really is no good excuse of not using it lategame, having one ready is simply awesome, if you do manage to get a successful nydus worm and a few zerglings in you can do massive damage to the production, for the cost of what? 100 min 100 gas?
That's nothing really, as long as you don't keep spamming it in hope that your opponent will fall for the same trick 5 times (which is when it becomes bad).
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The problem with "defensive" or "utility" Nydus Worms is that Lings are already so very fast on creep that you can have them pretty much anywhere on your creep in seconds, having them rally in and out of a Nydus wouldn't change that time by a significant amount. The only reason I would warrant Nydus on your own creep is if you had a very slow ground army, which just doesn't happen with Zerg unless you're maxed on Roaches/Ultras.
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i think a cool change would be instead of the:
- blob on minimap while building
- screams when completed
it should be:
- no blob on minimap until completed
- screams when building
therefore the opponent will hear a scream and then has to urgently look around his base for the churning displaced dirt without the aid of minimap.
i believe blizzard's original design is flawed... it's meant to be stealthy in that you place it in the corner of someone's base where they don't have vision so they can't see it on the minimap... but this almost never happens outside noob leagues because almost everyone positions creep, overlords, supply depots, pylons or something to grant vision in their base ALREADY because it's universally useful against pretty much every kind of harrass - drops, pylons, blink, nydus etc.
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On March 01 2012 23:34 shizna wrote:
i think a cool change would be instead of the:
- blob on minimap while building
- screams when completed
it should be:
- no blob on minimap until completed
- screams when building
therefore the opponent will hear a scream and then has to urgently look around his base for the churning dirt without the aid of minimap.
i believe blizzard's original design is flawed... it's meant to be stealthy in that you place it in the corner of someone's base where they don't have vision so they can't see it on the minimap... but this almost never happens outside noob leagues because almost everyone positions creep, overlords, supply depots, pylons or something to grant vision in their base ALREADY because it's universally useful against pretty much every kind of harrass - drops, pylons, blink, nydus etc.
No thats against what starcraft gameplay is, the scream is controversial not blob. Its like saying you shouldnt see medivac on minimap unless it unloads.
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People think nydus should be something like "I use it on top of my opponents army/base and get whole army in it and eventually win game, otherwise this nydus thing is bullshit and useless", sadly nydus isnt supposed to be used like that which many people fail to realise.
Nydus was dying fast in BW as well and was used A LOT for connecting bases and now you have option to use it on offensive positions and in your opponents base and people whine that it got too low hp and is too much of a cost to build in the first place.
Again, Nydus was created for connecting bases on big maps and 2 base allins that we already saw A LOT of times in ZvP, we saw it in ZvZ as well few times and in ZvT (EVEN in GSL).
People suggesting that it should have MORE hp, what is protoss supposed to do after forge FE vs nydus? kill it with what except probes?
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The mechanic needs changing I'd much rather see a faster spawn rate then a cheaper nydus. Starcraft 2 has a much more streamlined UI so the reaction time from most players is almost instantaneous making the payout for nydus almost never worth it offensively. Defensively it serves very little purpose because of how mobile a zergs army has to be causing the bottleneck to be the nydus. If my units could jump INTO and OUT OF the nydus much quicker I would definitely put it into practice.
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Under used? I have Zergs use them all the time on me as cheese tactics, if anything they are overused.
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Expensive, and late game they can require alot of multi tasking some lower league players do not have.
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I use nydus in late game a lot, defensively to move drones and slow units and such.... They used nydus canals in BW a lot to connect far away bases and it was pretty good. Like a lot when I play against mech I lose cause I don't build nydus and the terran can harass far away bases with ninja hellion runbys while doom slowpushing (this is especially annoying on TDA when you're in the spawn positions where terran can hit your natural), then he kills a whole base worth of drones with 2 hellions since my army is trying to kill his.
Instead of losing all your drones, hide them in the nydus and pop them out on the other side of the map, insta-start mining again. Put 3 roaches in the worm at your base and unload them at your expansion that's being harassed. No drones killed, harass deflected ezpz.
The people who are saying that nydus should be "I put army in opponents base then he gg roflmao" are just bad and wrong. You can punish protosses who are trying to expand too aggressively with mobile armies like muta ling harass and drops and nydus roaches into his main while pressuring his third with muta ling, but it's not supposed to be this insta-kill move lol. People underestimate how unbelievably useful it is to be able to ferry units between your expansions with virtually zero transit time.
On March 01 2012 23:44 Sc2Corpse wrote:
Under used? I have Zergs use them all the time on me as cheese tactics, if anything they are overused.
I'm sorry you're just wrong. This thread is meant to discuss the legitimate uses of nydus, ie. not allins or cheeses. Also I have a hard time believing zergs actually use nydus to cheese, that's just a terrible cheese...
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Takes too long to unload units IMO.
Also, zergs haven't gotten there yet.
It'll start happening at some point.
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On March 01 2012 23:16 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2012 23:01 Big J wrote:On March 01 2012 22:35 shizna wrote:
i still think people are thinking about it wrong.... it should not be compared to dropship - it should be compared to nuking.
making it cheaper just so people use it more often would be gamebreaking, like making nuke cheaper or making the ghost more hardy when deploying a nuke.
imo it's job is to break a stalemate situation. it's difficult to nydus when opponent denies vision, but it's hard to nuke when opponent has detection all over the place as well - yet nuking is still amazing at breaking stalemates.
most zerg just attack repeatedly until they win or lose, if they set up for a stalemate then nydus would come into play. Yeah, Nydus has good use at that stage. But I'm not sure if the downside of playing this strategy does not outweigth the potential of nydussing everywhere in such stalemates: You are basically giving up on the idea of building an army that can fight your opponents endgame army directly, but go for something along the lines of lings/Ultras/roaches/hydras basetrade instead. (depending on what you were teching to) Not sure though, haven't seen it a lot of times, nor used it a lot of times in such situations, and the times I used it like this, it felt like I was trading expensive ultras and nydus-ressources vs buildings. I'm pretty torn on that... I have tried it, and it leads to impressive shortterm results (stomping a base for the cost of some units/ressources), but usually ends with my opponent rolling over my ultrabased army (that's how I think it works best, due to ultras being good vs buildings and easy to load and unload). well i always thought the intended situation was that a fortified terran army cannot be beaten head-on. yet most zerg players still think "i need lotsa broodlords and infestors and then a-move, cos i watched GSL and thats how you win!". no, it's never preferable to attack into someone's defensive position.... you should only do it when you're forced to, for example you're contained and don't have time to drop/harrass etc. okay most maps are zerg friendly because you can flank easily enough that you don't need nydus... but on maps like metropolis, antiga and shakuras that zergs are constantly crying about - imagine the end game nydus potential against a turtle style... the super defensive map layout makes it even more difficult to defend nydus as well. you just need to increase the number of simultaneous nydus to 2-3, in seperate locations, then you massively increase the chance of success. you don't even need to commit ultralisks to a nydus... cracklings have higher dps for cost/supply than stimmed marines. plus the idea is that you retreat before your units die anyway. alike any harrass technique, if the opponent reacts well to it then get your units the F out of there before they all die... there's no such thing as zerg 'swarm' in SC2. if zerg loses units then he'll probably lose the game to an immediate counter attack.
sry, but why would it be intented that Terran max cannot be beaten head on? I mean, it was not even like that in BW and fortified Terran was probably more scary there and stalemate balance probably not as important as in SC2.
Especially, as the usual endgame army of Zerg is designed around the broodlord, which is meant to be a position (tank) breaking unit. Add Vikings and Infestors and whatever you think is best in such scenarios and you got yourself a nice micro match with the defending player having a good advantage due to how siege tanks work (13range, but have to unsiege).
About maps... there are winrate numbers for each map, which is as good as we can determine balance for them. If they are off, the map should be considered favored, if not, then the map is definatly not something like "zergfriendly". Though on second thought, I agree... Terran has >50% winrate vs Zerg, making any map that is >50% for Zerg "zergfriendly", while the racial balancing seems generally "terranfriendly". Though on 3rd thought, I think we shouldn't complain about +/- 5% imbalance at all...
But well... Just because Antiga, Shakuras etc disfavor certain styles, it doesn't really make Nydus stronger.
Cracklings problem with nydus is unloading and loading the nydus again. A Nydus still only loads up 4cracklings per second (unloads 2 per second), which makes retreating close to impossible. You need like 4nydus worms in one location.
Also not losing anything when nydusing is a nice thought, but it's just not doable, just like losing nothing when droping or harassing with air is undoable. The best way to minimize the losses with Nydus is the use of more worms and big units, which brings me back to: you should go ultra with it.
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EPT
