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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 14 2012 14:15 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 13:53 xUnSeEnx wrote:
Storm from toss does something like 150 damage, which basically melts marines and marauders and can easily be cleaned up by a collosus.
I know I'm ignoring the rest of your post, but storm does 80 dmg (20 per sec). It's kind of hard to overlook it when you're out by almost double.
Sorry, will correct. Did not research that was taking someone else's word for it.
On the bias note, yes terran was not statistically ahead of zerg BUT, this is also taking into account all league of play. At the upper leagues, someone quoted zerg and protoss beign about 4% statistically higher in wins over terran. When you think about it zerg is not a noob friendly race, however, once certain mechanics are done feasibly zerg is ALOT easier to play. I played random for a little while, and had an extremely higher win ratio when I was playing with both zerg and protoss. But remember, late game zerg was actually ahead of terran in the win perecentages, (earlier game terran was close to 60%). Which in-turn means, yes terran was winning a bit more earlier game (due to 1/1/1 all-ins and other rushes that crippled a greedy zerg) but in late game, zergs were winning.
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On February 14 2012 14:15 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 13:53 xUnSeEnx wrote:
Storm from toss does something like 150 damage, which basically melts marines and marauders and can easily be cleaned up by a collosus.
I know I'm ignoring the rest of your post, but storm does 80 dmg (20 per sec). It's kind of hard to overlook it when you're out by almost double.
It is kinda funny and baffling when people just put some random numbers or unit stats or whatever from the game that are wrong even though you can quite easily check it from liquipedia tab at the top of the page, which has most knowledge from the game (build orders, unit stats, pro players, etc.) that are useful for easy accessing to a lot of information about the game.
I just wish some people would explore the site a little. 
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On February 14 2012 13:09 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 12:23 mlspmatt wrote:On February 14 2012 11:58 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 11:28 mlspmatt wrote:On February 14 2012 10:59 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 10:29 Vladoks wrote:
yeah feedback is a big problem for lategame tvp, terran has great units like thors (and well bcs.. i dont know) but can't use them because they lose their hp so fast with feedback :-/ u could emp your own units but ghosts and ghost energy are too precious for that That didn't stop Ryung against Tassadar, and it seemed to work pretty well. Assuming they hit feedback on your BC when it's at completely full energy, it won't even take out half it's hp, and you can EMP it or just Yamato a building or something (or even rocks!). As for upgrades folks, you get them anyway for your vikings. This is what people argue who have no valid arguments to make. Make Battle Cruisers. It's been tried, it doesn't work. If your in a Max v Max battle and want to remax with 4 battle Cruisers. After the battle you start building your BC's, and wait the 90s for them to build. In that 90 seconds Toss can use his 15 gates to wapr in 30 supply 3 times before your BC's hit the field. How do you suggest Terran survives during that 90 seconds when 24 supply is occupied in the starport? That's assuming BC's give you any real advantage, which they don't. 4 Stalkers are about the same cost as 1 BC, are much more mobile, have more health, very similar DPS (Both fully upgraded) and can be produced much much faster. It simply doesn't make sense to make BC's. And yes of course Terran will have marauders to handle the Stalkers, but protoss will have charge-Lots + Archons to handle the marauders. There's no advantage to making BC's. And if you take into consideration the cost of getting the BC tech, it's a losing proposition for terran. Who said anything about re-maxing on BC? When you're remaxing you want as many units as fast as possible so you don't die. It's like Protoss 'remaxing' on Carriers. Good way to die. I'm talking about at the point where you start sacking SCV's to increase army size don't waste your extra size on 4 more marauders when Protoss is already doing everything they can do counter exactly that. The 'upgrades' required are what, a Fusion core and a starport with tech lab? Terran can so afford that at that stage of the late game. The resources are there, the time is there, usually there are too big arse armies dancing around the map, Protoss are trying to get a decent re-max bank and finishing off upgrades. Terran are getting a PFs up and sacking SCV's to for a bigger army. And honestly, pick whatever unit you want, the BC is just an obvious choice. The fact is that Terran banks a shitload of gas in that stage of the game and uses their extra 25 army supply on units that Protoss already has a way to deal with. That 25 supply is Terran's edge in the late game, and it's being squandered away on a handful of extra marines, marauders and maybe an extra ghost. You could fit 3 BC's in there, Yamoto an SCV before battle and use the BC's to control space while you micro your bio. Love to see how those zealots fare as they chase a kiting bio army while under fire from 3 BCs. Yes, some damage will come from storms and feedback on the BCs, yes some stalkers will take them down, but I'd be willing to bet you'd get more value from 3 BCs as your 'bonus supply' than you will from 12 more Maruaders getting stormed and cut apart by colossus. First of all, Terrans are not going to invest in BC tech to make just one round of them. There will come a time when Terran needs to use them as part of their remax army, then they are stuck waiting for them to build while their base is being torn apart, or they engage and lose their entire army. Secondly you pawned off the Stalker issue by saying "Yes, some damage will come from storms and feedback on the BCs, yes some stalkers will take them down"this is what people say when they have no ligitimate response. They pawn it off as no big deal to minimize its importance, when it is the core of the issue. I didn't bring up fedback or storms in my earlier comment. I didn't need to, the Stalkers alone prove the point. There has to be a reason to spend all those resources on BC's and the tech required. There has to be an advantage gained somewhere or it's not worth the investment. You've not yet made a single point as to what advantage the BC's offer. They don't control any space with range 6. Sure, they'll kill a few extra Zealots while your bio army kites, but at the same time the stalkers are killing them. So I, the terran, killed a few extra Zealots with my BC's and your Stalkers killed my BC's. I think Protoss wins that one. You also added that BC's are just an example, and then don't suggest what unit exactley terrans should add that helps them. Thors? Ravens? What unit exactley is going to help Terran so much that it's better than the units that Terran has already invested in and upgraded? And it's not enough to suggest units without saying HOW exactley they are going to help, and if they are better than what terran already has. Otherwise your just "Throwing it out there" with little or no thought behind it and it's not worth much debate. Ok, the reason I didn't throw out 'how' to use it is because something like that needs to be workshopped with people who want to attempt to make it work instead of people who just want to say why it won't. So, there are two kinds of protoss death ball, stalker colossus and zealot colossus. Look at recent GSL Genius vs MKP for a great example of stalker colossus and Parting vs Jjakji for the zealot colossus variant. Obviously is you're facing stalker colossus BC is bad juju. Maybe thors are better in that situation since thors are better vs stalkers? Or maybe you should just be throwing away as many marines as you can and maxxing on pure maruader in that situation. Anyway, assuming you're facing a zealot heavy, low colossus count, low stalker count, high HT count composition like Parting fielded I think BC's would be a great addition for a couple of reasons: Zealots and colossus don't shoot up and the low stalker count will take forever to kill BCs. Infact, 3 BCs will probably kill all the stalkers first. Archons DO shoot up, and will get distracted by the BC. Their damage vs BC is pretty damn awful, so something tanking their damage is great. You can Yamoto the Colossus and / or focus fire the colossus and have no vikings at all. This means that when the colossus die you have supply that can shoot down, which is better than supply that can't shoot down. You can use the BC's as a pivot point to kite around making the micro tasks of the protoss player harder (stopping zealots and colossus from chasing the bio while the range shoots the BC for example). If the protoss player is grabbing HT's from all over the map to bring in storms then he won't be micro'ing his army much which means you can deal with the zealots without the pain of the archons and stalkers. The protoss will probably remax with a bunch of stalkers which eats his resources faster than zealot / HT -> archon meaning you know that remaxing marauder is a great idea.
OK. If Terran can catch the protoss in Zealot/Archon/Colossus composition, I see how BC's can work. But it's very risky. If they're scouted and lose the element of surprise I think terran is in deep trouble and it's hard to hide starports from observers.
In a straight up fight where both players know the other players composition, and react properly, I don't see the value in BC's. I don't think they offer any value for the extra cost of the tech required. But as a surprise they can work. But again, hiding BC's and their tech is going to be near impossible if the Toss is scouting properly. It's a big risk.
Sure BC's can work under the right circumstances, but I don't see it as standard play - which is what we're talking about.
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On February 14 2012 13:34 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 12:23 mlspmatt wrote:On February 14 2012 11:58 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 11:28 mlspmatt wrote:On February 14 2012 10:59 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 10:29 Vladoks wrote:
yeah feedback is a big problem for lategame tvp, terran has great units like thors (and well bcs.. i dont know) but can't use them because they lose their hp so fast with feedback :-/ u could emp your own units but ghosts and ghost energy are too precious for that That didn't stop Ryung against Tassadar, and it seemed to work pretty well. Assuming they hit feedback on your BC when it's at completely full energy, it won't even take out half it's hp, and you can EMP it or just Yamato a building or something (or even rocks!). As for upgrades folks, you get them anyway for your vikings. This is what people argue who have no valid arguments to make. Make Battle Cruisers. It's been tried, it doesn't work. If your in a Max v Max battle and want to remax with 4 battle Cruisers. After the battle you start building your BC's, and wait the 90s for them to build. In that 90 seconds Toss can use his 15 gates to wapr in 30 supply 3 times before your BC's hit the field. How do you suggest Terran survives during that 90 seconds when 24 supply is occupied in the starport? That's assuming BC's give you any real advantage, which they don't. 4 Stalkers are about the same cost as 1 BC, are much more mobile, have more health, very similar DPS (Both fully upgraded) and can be produced much much faster. It simply doesn't make sense to make BC's. And yes of course Terran will have marauders to handle the Stalkers, but protoss will have charge-Lots + Archons to handle the marauders. There's no advantage to making BC's. And if you take into consideration the cost of getting the BC tech, it's a losing proposition for terran. Who said anything about re-maxing on BC? When you're remaxing you want as many units as fast as possible so you don't die. It's like Protoss 'remaxing' on Carriers. Good way to die. I'm talking about at the point where you start sacking SCV's to increase army size don't waste your extra size on 4 more marauders when Protoss is already doing everything they can do counter exactly that. The 'upgrades' required are what, a Fusion core and a starport with tech lab? Terran can so afford that at that stage of the late game. The resources are there, the time is there, usually there are too big arse armies dancing around the map, Protoss are trying to get a decent re-max bank and finishing off upgrades. Terran are getting a PFs up and sacking SCV's to for a bigger army. And honestly, pick whatever unit you want, the BC is just an obvious choice. The fact is that Terran banks a shitload of gas in that stage of the game and uses their extra 25 army supply on units that Protoss already has a way to deal with. That 25 supply is Terran's edge in the late game, and it's being squandered away on a handful of extra marines, marauders and maybe an extra ghost. You could fit 3 BC's in there, Yamoto an SCV before battle and use the BC's to control space while you micro your bio. Love to see how those zealots fare as they chase a kiting bio army while under fire from 3 BCs. Yes, some damage will come from storms and feedback on the BCs, yes some stalkers will take them down, but I'd be willing to bet you'd get more value from 3 BCs as your 'bonus supply' than you will from 12 more Maruaders getting stormed and cut apart by colossus. First of all, Terrans are not going to invest in BC tech to make just one round of them. There will come a time when Terran needs to use them as part of their remax army, then they are stuck waiting for them to build while their base is being torn apart, or they engage and lose their entire army. Secondly you pawned off the Stalker issue by saying "Yes, some damage will come from storms and feedback on the BCs, yes some stalkers will take them down"this is what people say when they have no ligitimate response. They pawn it off as no big deal to minimize its importance, when it is the core of the issue. I didn't bring up fedback or storms in my earlier comment. I didn't need to, the Stalkers alone prove the point. There has to be a reason to spend all those resources on BC's and the tech required. There has to be an advantage gained somewhere or it's not worth the investment. You've not yet made a single point as to what advantage the BC's offer. They don't control any space with range 6. Sure, they'll kill a few extra Zealots while your bio army kites, but at the same time the stalkers are killing them. So I, the terran, killed a few extra Zealots with my BC's and your Stalkers killed my BC's. I think Protoss wins that one. You also added that BC's are just an example, and then don't suggest what unit exactley terrans should add that helps them. Thors? Ravens? What unit exactley is going to help Terran so much that it's better than the units that Terran has already invested in and upgraded? And it's not enough to suggest units without saying HOW exactley they are going to help, and if they are better than what terran already has. Otherwise your just "Throwing it out there" with little or no thought behind it and it's not worth much debate. Actually, forcing protoss to make more stalkers is exactly the reason to mix BC's in: if they don't do it, your BC's will reign over the battlefield dishing out absurd damage over the course of the fight, and if they do make stalkers, their ground army will be significantly weaker: in the late game, protoss doesn't want more than 10 stalkers or so, just enough to blink to pick off ghosts or vikings. Stalkers suck in the actual engagement, and they're expensive for almost no DPS. The purpose of the BC's is to make the protoss composition less effective and efficient by forcing extra stalkers. BC's are probably the best unit in the game for tanking archons, their damage vs. BC's are terrible (BC's are tied for highest armor in the game at +6 with all upgrades along with the ultralisk, and they've got 550 hit points, the second highest in the game just after the mothership). Again, this isn't just theorycrafting, although it's not common quite yet, but it's been done before, and recently, in the GSL (more than once).
Like twice?
Show me three high level Korean games in the last 6 months where BC's made the difference in winning the game and I'll consider your point. If you can't find three in the last six months then it's just theorycrafting.
Any games where the terran is going to win anyway and makes BC's doesn't count.
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On February 14 2012 14:34 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 13:09 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 12:23 mlspmatt wrote:On February 14 2012 11:58 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 11:28 mlspmatt wrote:On February 14 2012 10:59 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 10:29 Vladoks wrote:
yeah feedback is a big problem for lategame tvp, terran has great units like thors (and well bcs.. i dont know) but can't use them because they lose their hp so fast with feedback :-/ u could emp your own units but ghosts and ghost energy are too precious for that That didn't stop Ryung against Tassadar, and it seemed to work pretty well. Assuming they hit feedback on your BC when it's at completely full energy, it won't even take out half it's hp, and you can EMP it or just Yamato a building or something (or even rocks!). As for upgrades folks, you get them anyway for your vikings. This is what people argue who have no valid arguments to make. Make Battle Cruisers. It's been tried, it doesn't work. If your in a Max v Max battle and want to remax with 4 battle Cruisers. After the battle you start building your BC's, and wait the 90s for them to build. In that 90 seconds Toss can use his 15 gates to wapr in 30 supply 3 times before your BC's hit the field. How do you suggest Terran survives during that 90 seconds when 24 supply is occupied in the starport? That's assuming BC's give you any real advantage, which they don't. 4 Stalkers are about the same cost as 1 BC, are much more mobile, have more health, very similar DPS (Both fully upgraded) and can be produced much much faster. It simply doesn't make sense to make BC's. And yes of course Terran will have marauders to handle the Stalkers, but protoss will have charge-Lots + Archons to handle the marauders. There's no advantage to making BC's. And if you take into consideration the cost of getting the BC tech, it's a losing proposition for terran. Who said anything about re-maxing on BC? When you're remaxing you want as many units as fast as possible so you don't die. It's like Protoss 'remaxing' on Carriers. Good way to die. I'm talking about at the point where you start sacking SCV's to increase army size don't waste your extra size on 4 more marauders when Protoss is already doing everything they can do counter exactly that. The 'upgrades' required are what, a Fusion core and a starport with tech lab? Terran can so afford that at that stage of the late game. The resources are there, the time is there, usually there are too big arse armies dancing around the map, Protoss are trying to get a decent re-max bank and finishing off upgrades. Terran are getting a PFs up and sacking SCV's to for a bigger army. And honestly, pick whatever unit you want, the BC is just an obvious choice. The fact is that Terran banks a shitload of gas in that stage of the game and uses their extra 25 army supply on units that Protoss already has a way to deal with. That 25 supply is Terran's edge in the late game, and it's being squandered away on a handful of extra marines, marauders and maybe an extra ghost. You could fit 3 BC's in there, Yamoto an SCV before battle and use the BC's to control space while you micro your bio. Love to see how those zealots fare as they chase a kiting bio army while under fire from 3 BCs. Yes, some damage will come from storms and feedback on the BCs, yes some stalkers will take them down, but I'd be willing to bet you'd get more value from 3 BCs as your 'bonus supply' than you will from 12 more Maruaders getting stormed and cut apart by colossus. First of all, Terrans are not going to invest in BC tech to make just one round of them. There will come a time when Terran needs to use them as part of their remax army, then they are stuck waiting for them to build while their base is being torn apart, or they engage and lose their entire army. Secondly you pawned off the Stalker issue by saying "Yes, some damage will come from storms and feedback on the BCs, yes some stalkers will take them down"this is what people say when they have no ligitimate response. They pawn it off as no big deal to minimize its importance, when it is the core of the issue. I didn't bring up fedback or storms in my earlier comment. I didn't need to, the Stalkers alone prove the point. There has to be a reason to spend all those resources on BC's and the tech required. There has to be an advantage gained somewhere or it's not worth the investment. You've not yet made a single point as to what advantage the BC's offer. They don't control any space with range 6. Sure, they'll kill a few extra Zealots while your bio army kites, but at the same time the stalkers are killing them. So I, the terran, killed a few extra Zealots with my BC's and your Stalkers killed my BC's. I think Protoss wins that one. You also added that BC's are just an example, and then don't suggest what unit exactley terrans should add that helps them. Thors? Ravens? What unit exactley is going to help Terran so much that it's better than the units that Terran has already invested in and upgraded? And it's not enough to suggest units without saying HOW exactley they are going to help, and if they are better than what terran already has. Otherwise your just "Throwing it out there" with little or no thought behind it and it's not worth much debate. Ok, the reason I didn't throw out 'how' to use it is because something like that needs to be workshopped with people who want to attempt to make it work instead of people who just want to say why it won't. So, there are two kinds of protoss death ball, stalker colossus and zealot colossus. Look at recent GSL Genius vs MKP for a great example of stalker colossus and Parting vs Jjakji for the zealot colossus variant. Obviously is you're facing stalker colossus BC is bad juju. Maybe thors are better in that situation since thors are better vs stalkers? Or maybe you should just be throwing away as many marines as you can and maxxing on pure maruader in that situation. Anyway, assuming you're facing a zealot heavy, low colossus count, low stalker count, high HT count composition like Parting fielded I think BC's would be a great addition for a couple of reasons: Zealots and colossus don't shoot up and the low stalker count will take forever to kill BCs. Infact, 3 BCs will probably kill all the stalkers first. Archons DO shoot up, and will get distracted by the BC. Their damage vs BC is pretty damn awful, so something tanking their damage is great. You can Yamoto the Colossus and / or focus fire the colossus and have no vikings at all. This means that when the colossus die you have supply that can shoot down, which is better than supply that can't shoot down. You can use the BC's as a pivot point to kite around making the micro tasks of the protoss player harder (stopping zealots and colossus from chasing the bio while the range shoots the BC for example). If the protoss player is grabbing HT's from all over the map to bring in storms then he won't be micro'ing his army much which means you can deal with the zealots without the pain of the archons and stalkers. The protoss will probably remax with a bunch of stalkers which eats his resources faster than zealot / HT -> archon meaning you know that remaxing marauder is a great idea. OK. If Terran can catch the protoss in Zealot/Archon/Colossus composition, I see how BC's can work. But it's very risky. If they're scouted and lose the element of surprise I think terran is in deep trouble and it's hard to hide starports from observers. In a straight up fight where both players know the other players composition, and react properly, I don't see the value in BC's. I don't think they offer any value for the extra cost of the tech required. But as a surprise they can work. But again, hiding BC's and their tech is going to be near impossible if the Toss is scouting properly. It's a big risk. Sure BC's can work under the right circumstances, but I don't see it as standard play - which is what we're talking about.
Can you define "standard" play for me? Not trolling, just defining scope of discussion.
I would think that with terran having such a hard time of "standard" play they would be look for solutions in the "non-standard" box to pull out and use. Especially situational stuff like 'Ah ha! he's over making zealots, slam down that fusion reactor and don't engage. Buy time for 2 BC then crush it".
I think we've moved beyond "I get MMM + Ghost or Viking depending on if I see HT or Colossus first and just get as much of that as possible. I hope my EMPs are better than his storms."
On February 14 2012 14:44 mlspmatt wrote:
Like twice?
Show me three high level Korean games in the last 6 months where BC's made the difference in winning the game and I'll consider your point. If you can't find three in the last six months then it's just theorycrafting.
Any games where the terran is going to win anyway and makes BC's doesn't count.
See, there is no conversation here at all. You even give yourself the escape clause 'oh, they would have won anyway' just in case someone can find the vods.
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I find it funny how zerg is the strongest race and they still cry when they lose. Also, I find the infestor and high templar both more versatile and effective than the ghost. Biased players on this thread.
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On February 14 2012 14:48 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 14:34 mlspmatt wrote:On February 14 2012 13:09 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 12:23 mlspmatt wrote:On February 14 2012 11:58 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 11:28 mlspmatt wrote:On February 14 2012 10:59 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 10:29 Vladoks wrote:
yeah feedback is a big problem for lategame tvp, terran has great units like thors (and well bcs.. i dont know) but can't use them because they lose their hp so fast with feedback :-/ u could emp your own units but ghosts and ghost energy are too precious for that That didn't stop Ryung against Tassadar, and it seemed to work pretty well. Assuming they hit feedback on your BC when it's at completely full energy, it won't even take out half it's hp, and you can EMP it or just Yamato a building or something (or even rocks!). As for upgrades folks, you get them anyway for your vikings. This is what people argue who have no valid arguments to make. Make Battle Cruisers. It's been tried, it doesn't work. If your in a Max v Max battle and want to remax with 4 battle Cruisers. After the battle you start building your BC's, and wait the 90s for them to build. In that 90 seconds Toss can use his 15 gates to wapr in 30 supply 3 times before your BC's hit the field. How do you suggest Terran survives during that 90 seconds when 24 supply is occupied in the starport? That's assuming BC's give you any real advantage, which they don't. 4 Stalkers are about the same cost as 1 BC, are much more mobile, have more health, very similar DPS (Both fully upgraded) and can be produced much much faster. It simply doesn't make sense to make BC's. And yes of course Terran will have marauders to handle the Stalkers, but protoss will have charge-Lots + Archons to handle the marauders. There's no advantage to making BC's. And if you take into consideration the cost of getting the BC tech, it's a losing proposition for terran. Who said anything about re-maxing on BC? When you're remaxing you want as many units as fast as possible so you don't die. It's like Protoss 'remaxing' on Carriers. Good way to die. I'm talking about at the point where you start sacking SCV's to increase army size don't waste your extra size on 4 more marauders when Protoss is already doing everything they can do counter exactly that. The 'upgrades' required are what, a Fusion core and a starport with tech lab? Terran can so afford that at that stage of the late game. The resources are there, the time is there, usually there are too big arse armies dancing around the map, Protoss are trying to get a decent re-max bank and finishing off upgrades. Terran are getting a PFs up and sacking SCV's to for a bigger army. And honestly, pick whatever unit you want, the BC is just an obvious choice. The fact is that Terran banks a shitload of gas in that stage of the game and uses their extra 25 army supply on units that Protoss already has a way to deal with. That 25 supply is Terran's edge in the late game, and it's being squandered away on a handful of extra marines, marauders and maybe an extra ghost. You could fit 3 BC's in there, Yamoto an SCV before battle and use the BC's to control space while you micro your bio. Love to see how those zealots fare as they chase a kiting bio army while under fire from 3 BCs. Yes, some damage will come from storms and feedback on the BCs, yes some stalkers will take them down, but I'd be willing to bet you'd get more value from 3 BCs as your 'bonus supply' than you will from 12 more Maruaders getting stormed and cut apart by colossus. First of all, Terrans are not going to invest in BC tech to make just one round of them. There will come a time when Terran needs to use them as part of their remax army, then they are stuck waiting for them to build while their base is being torn apart, or they engage and lose their entire army. Secondly you pawned off the Stalker issue by saying "Yes, some damage will come from storms and feedback on the BCs, yes some stalkers will take them down"this is what people say when they have no ligitimate response. They pawn it off as no big deal to minimize its importance, when it is the core of the issue. I didn't bring up fedback or storms in my earlier comment. I didn't need to, the Stalkers alone prove the point. There has to be a reason to spend all those resources on BC's and the tech required. There has to be an advantage gained somewhere or it's not worth the investment. You've not yet made a single point as to what advantage the BC's offer. They don't control any space with range 6. Sure, they'll kill a few extra Zealots while your bio army kites, but at the same time the stalkers are killing them. So I, the terran, killed a few extra Zealots with my BC's and your Stalkers killed my BC's. I think Protoss wins that one. You also added that BC's are just an example, and then don't suggest what unit exactley terrans should add that helps them. Thors? Ravens? What unit exactley is going to help Terran so much that it's better than the units that Terran has already invested in and upgraded? And it's not enough to suggest units without saying HOW exactley they are going to help, and if they are better than what terran already has. Otherwise your just "Throwing it out there" with little or no thought behind it and it's not worth much debate. Ok, the reason I didn't throw out 'how' to use it is because something like that needs to be workshopped with people who want to attempt to make it work instead of people who just want to say why it won't. So, there are two kinds of protoss death ball, stalker colossus and zealot colossus. Look at recent GSL Genius vs MKP for a great example of stalker colossus and Parting vs Jjakji for the zealot colossus variant. Obviously is you're facing stalker colossus BC is bad juju. Maybe thors are better in that situation since thors are better vs stalkers? Or maybe you should just be throwing away as many marines as you can and maxxing on pure maruader in that situation. Anyway, assuming you're facing a zealot heavy, low colossus count, low stalker count, high HT count composition like Parting fielded I think BC's would be a great addition for a couple of reasons: Zealots and colossus don't shoot up and the low stalker count will take forever to kill BCs. Infact, 3 BCs will probably kill all the stalkers first. Archons DO shoot up, and will get distracted by the BC. Their damage vs BC is pretty damn awful, so something tanking their damage is great. You can Yamoto the Colossus and / or focus fire the colossus and have no vikings at all. This means that when the colossus die you have supply that can shoot down, which is better than supply that can't shoot down. You can use the BC's as a pivot point to kite around making the micro tasks of the protoss player harder (stopping zealots and colossus from chasing the bio while the range shoots the BC for example). If the protoss player is grabbing HT's from all over the map to bring in storms then he won't be micro'ing his army much which means you can deal with the zealots without the pain of the archons and stalkers. The protoss will probably remax with a bunch of stalkers which eats his resources faster than zealot / HT -> archon meaning you know that remaxing marauder is a great idea. OK. If Terran can catch the protoss in Zealot/Archon/Colossus composition, I see how BC's can work. But it's very risky. If they're scouted and lose the element of surprise I think terran is in deep trouble and it's hard to hide starports from observers. In a straight up fight where both players know the other players composition, and react properly, I don't see the value in BC's. I don't think they offer any value for the extra cost of the tech required. But as a surprise they can work. But again, hiding BC's and their tech is going to be near impossible if the Toss is scouting properly. It's a big risk. Sure BC's can work under the right circumstances, but I don't see it as standard play - which is what we're talking about. Can you define "standard" play for me? Not trolling, just defining scope of discussion. I would think that with terran having such a hard time of "standard" play they would be look for solutions in the "non-standard" box to pull out and use. Especially situational stuff like 'Ah ha! he's over making zealots, slam down that fusion reactor and don't engage. Buy time for 2 BC then crush it". I think we've moved beyond "I get MMM + Ghost or Viking depending on if I see HT or Colossus first and just get as much of that as possible. I hope my EMPs are better than his storms." Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 14:44 mlspmatt wrote:
Like twice?
Show me three high level Korean games in the last 6 months where BC's made the difference in winning the game and I'll consider your point. If you can't find three in the last six months then it's just theorycrafting.
Any games where the terran is going to win anyway and makes BC's doesn't count.
See, there is no conversation here at all. You even give yourself the escape clause 'oh, they would have won anyway' just in case someone can find the vods.
Sure, lets say standard play is when both sides have had time to adapt to a new strat and react properly. New strategies often work for short periods of time before the oppponent adapts, plays correctley, then the new strat doesn't work anymore. That strat would fail as a standard play and only be good from time to time as a surprise.
If BC's are going to be a useful tool for terran in TvP then it has to work when Protoss knows BC's are a probability, and understands how to counter them properly.
"Any games where the terran is going to win anyway and makes BC's doesn't count." - By this I mean games where Terran is way ahead and could win regardless of what they make, then decide to make BC's, that doesn't count. If you show me three games where terran takes a huge lead in the early/mid game, then makes BC's to finish the TOSS off, that doesn't mean BC's are any good, the games have to be competitive when the Terran starts to make BC's.
I think we've moved beyond "I get MMM + Ghost or Viking depending on if I see HT or Colossus first and just get as much of that as possible. I hope my EMPs are better than his storms."
That's where the game is too. There's not a lot of other options. Hellions have little use late game, Tanks don't fit well against Protoss mid-late game compositions, Thors have good DPS but have energy and lose half their health to fedback, will likely have no upgrades, take a long time to build and are very slow.
That leaves air units. Banshees have energy and can be one shot by fedback and are very weak to Phoenix play if terran makes a committment to them. Ravens do nothing vs a chargelot/Archon composition, and BC's have all the problems already discussed.
At some point, Zerg and Protoss players will come to the realisation that what terran players are saying is true, their late game is pretty weak and there are not a lot of options.
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Minor change in my opinion. I will put all my hope at SC2 HOTS.
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On February 14 2012 15:01 mlspmatt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 14:48 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 14:34 mlspmatt wrote:On February 14 2012 13:09 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 12:23 mlspmatt wrote:On February 14 2012 11:58 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 11:28 mlspmatt wrote:On February 14 2012 10:59 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 10:29 Vladoks wrote:
yeah feedback is a big problem for lategame tvp, terran has great units like thors (and well bcs.. i dont know) but can't use them because they lose their hp so fast with feedback :-/ u could emp your own units but ghosts and ghost energy are too precious for that That didn't stop Ryung against Tassadar, and it seemed to work pretty well. Assuming they hit feedback on your BC when it's at completely full energy, it won't even take out half it's hp, and you can EMP it or just Yamato a building or something (or even rocks!). As for upgrades folks, you get them anyway for your vikings. This is what people argue who have no valid arguments to make. Make Battle Cruisers. It's been tried, it doesn't work. If your in a Max v Max battle and want to remax with 4 battle Cruisers. After the battle you start building your BC's, and wait the 90s for them to build. In that 90 seconds Toss can use his 15 gates to wapr in 30 supply 3 times before your BC's hit the field. How do you suggest Terran survives during that 90 seconds when 24 supply is occupied in the starport? That's assuming BC's give you any real advantage, which they don't. 4 Stalkers are about the same cost as 1 BC, are much more mobile, have more health, very similar DPS (Both fully upgraded) and can be produced much much faster. It simply doesn't make sense to make BC's. And yes of course Terran will have marauders to handle the Stalkers, but protoss will have charge-Lots + Archons to handle the marauders. There's no advantage to making BC's. And if you take into consideration the cost of getting the BC tech, it's a losing proposition for terran. Who said anything about re-maxing on BC? When you're remaxing you want as many units as fast as possible so you don't die. It's like Protoss 'remaxing' on Carriers. Good way to die. I'm talking about at the point where you start sacking SCV's to increase army size don't waste your extra size on 4 more marauders when Protoss is already doing everything they can do counter exactly that. The 'upgrades' required are what, a Fusion core and a starport with tech lab? Terran can so afford that at that stage of the late game. The resources are there, the time is there, usually there are too big arse armies dancing around the map, Protoss are trying to get a decent re-max bank and finishing off upgrades. Terran are getting a PFs up and sacking SCV's to for a bigger army. And honestly, pick whatever unit you want, the BC is just an obvious choice. The fact is that Terran banks a shitload of gas in that stage of the game and uses their extra 25 army supply on units that Protoss already has a way to deal with. That 25 supply is Terran's edge in the late game, and it's being squandered away on a handful of extra marines, marauders and maybe an extra ghost. You could fit 3 BC's in there, Yamoto an SCV before battle and use the BC's to control space while you micro your bio. Love to see how those zealots fare as they chase a kiting bio army while under fire from 3 BCs. Yes, some damage will come from storms and feedback on the BCs, yes some stalkers will take them down, but I'd be willing to bet you'd get more value from 3 BCs as your 'bonus supply' than you will from 12 more Maruaders getting stormed and cut apart by colossus. First of all, Terrans are not going to invest in BC tech to make just one round of them. There will come a time when Terran needs to use them as part of their remax army, then they are stuck waiting for them to build while their base is being torn apart, or they engage and lose their entire army. Secondly you pawned off the Stalker issue by saying "Yes, some damage will come from storms and feedback on the BCs, yes some stalkers will take them down"this is what people say when they have no ligitimate response. They pawn it off as no big deal to minimize its importance, when it is the core of the issue. I didn't bring up fedback or storms in my earlier comment. I didn't need to, the Stalkers alone prove the point. There has to be a reason to spend all those resources on BC's and the tech required. There has to be an advantage gained somewhere or it's not worth the investment. You've not yet made a single point as to what advantage the BC's offer. They don't control any space with range 6. Sure, they'll kill a few extra Zealots while your bio army kites, but at the same time the stalkers are killing them. So I, the terran, killed a few extra Zealots with my BC's and your Stalkers killed my BC's. I think Protoss wins that one. You also added that BC's are just an example, and then don't suggest what unit exactley terrans should add that helps them. Thors? Ravens? What unit exactley is going to help Terran so much that it's better than the units that Terran has already invested in and upgraded? And it's not enough to suggest units without saying HOW exactley they are going to help, and if they are better than what terran already has. Otherwise your just "Throwing it out there" with little or no thought behind it and it's not worth much debate. Ok, the reason I didn't throw out 'how' to use it is because something like that needs to be workshopped with people who want to attempt to make it work instead of people who just want to say why it won't. So, there are two kinds of protoss death ball, stalker colossus and zealot colossus. Look at recent GSL Genius vs MKP for a great example of stalker colossus and Parting vs Jjakji for the zealot colossus variant. Obviously is you're facing stalker colossus BC is bad juju. Maybe thors are better in that situation since thors are better vs stalkers? Or maybe you should just be throwing away as many marines as you can and maxxing on pure maruader in that situation. Anyway, assuming you're facing a zealot heavy, low colossus count, low stalker count, high HT count composition like Parting fielded I think BC's would be a great addition for a couple of reasons: Zealots and colossus don't shoot up and the low stalker count will take forever to kill BCs. Infact, 3 BCs will probably kill all the stalkers first. Archons DO shoot up, and will get distracted by the BC. Their damage vs BC is pretty damn awful, so something tanking their damage is great. You can Yamoto the Colossus and / or focus fire the colossus and have no vikings at all. This means that when the colossus die you have supply that can shoot down, which is better than supply that can't shoot down. You can use the BC's as a pivot point to kite around making the micro tasks of the protoss player harder (stopping zealots and colossus from chasing the bio while the range shoots the BC for example). If the protoss player is grabbing HT's from all over the map to bring in storms then he won't be micro'ing his army much which means you can deal with the zealots without the pain of the archons and stalkers. The protoss will probably remax with a bunch of stalkers which eats his resources faster than zealot / HT -> archon meaning you know that remaxing marauder is a great idea. OK. If Terran can catch the protoss in Zealot/Archon/Colossus composition, I see how BC's can work. But it's very risky. If they're scouted and lose the element of surprise I think terran is in deep trouble and it's hard to hide starports from observers. In a straight up fight where both players know the other players composition, and react properly, I don't see the value in BC's. I don't think they offer any value for the extra cost of the tech required. But as a surprise they can work. But again, hiding BC's and their tech is going to be near impossible if the Toss is scouting properly. It's a big risk. Sure BC's can work under the right circumstances, but I don't see it as standard play - which is what we're talking about. Can you define "standard" play for me? Not trolling, just defining scope of discussion. I would think that with terran having such a hard time of "standard" play they would be look for solutions in the "non-standard" box to pull out and use. Especially situational stuff like 'Ah ha! he's over making zealots, slam down that fusion reactor and don't engage. Buy time for 2 BC then crush it". I think we've moved beyond "I get MMM + Ghost or Viking depending on if I see HT or Colossus first and just get as much of that as possible. I hope my EMPs are better than his storms." On February 14 2012 14:44 mlspmatt wrote:
Like twice?
Show me three high level Korean games in the last 6 months where BC's made the difference in winning the game and I'll consider your point. If you can't find three in the last six months then it's just theorycrafting.
Any games where the terran is going to win anyway and makes BC's doesn't count.
See, there is no conversation here at all. You even give yourself the escape clause 'oh, they would have won anyway' just in case someone can find the vods. Sure, lets say standard play is when both sides have had time to adapt to a new strat and react properly. New strategies often work for short periods of time before the oppponent adapts, plays correctley, then the new strat doesn't work anymore. That strat would fail as a standard play and only be good from time to time as a surprise. If BC's are going to be a useful tool for terran in TvP then it has to work when Protoss knows BC's are a probability, and understands how to counter them properly. "Any games where the terran is going to win anyway and makes BC's doesn't count." - By this I mean games where Terran is way ahead and could win regardless of what they make, then decide to make BC's, that doesn't count.
I don't think those exist right now BC are no units that turn the tide . BC's also ( like Voidrays for example ) have big problems with big numbers of smaller Units even if those units can't shoot up. So if he overmakes groundforces adding BC's alone doesn't make me win if my groundforce gets absolutely rolled in mere seconds thanks to AOE since the BC's kill stuff very slowly and will never be able to catch up. He'll just run past the BC's into my production and Warp-in a Units from somewhere on the side and ignore the BC's until the the production is crippled . BC's have to be infront of my actual army and try to force the toss into making stalkers and hopefully exposing them before engaging with the main army since a mainarmy that misses 12-18 supply thanks to BC's will die very fast on the ground .
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BCs are generally better damage density per supply than void rays, outside charged voids hitting armoured targets. (and denser supply per build time, outside of constant chrono). I don't think anyone has really proven that it's easy to disengage cleanly from a handful of BCs lategame the same way you'd disengage from void rays in the early midgame.
Void rays are uniquely designed that you can run away from them to make them less of a threat, so long as they aren't already on top of your base. Then they have that thing where they can move and shoot at things that are running away from them that confuses that idea, but still.
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There is a testing going on with range 6 Phoenix v. Mutalisks @PlayXP. Current consensus is you need about 8~10 Phoenix throughout the whole game, no matter how many Mutalisks are coming at you. Korean ladder Masters. 10 Pheonix v 30 mutalisks resulted in 8 Phoenix left over. (all Mutalisks dead) Both Phoenix and Muta are microed by similarly skilled friends.
It's an experiment to give you guys what to expect. Overlords are also much easier to kill because static air units no longer stack since patch 1.30 (?). Unless each ovie has a personal spore, there are bound to be angles where spores can't reach phoenix.
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It is going to be like broodwar all over again where mutas became useless after a certain number of corsairs came out, we are going to need a hydralisk buff for sure...
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On February 14 2012 14:31 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 14:15 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 13:53 xUnSeEnx wrote:
Storm from toss does something like 150 damage, which basically melts marines and marauders and can easily be cleaned up by a collosus.
I know I'm ignoring the rest of your post, but storm does 80 dmg (20 per sec). It's kind of hard to overlook it when you're out by almost double. It is kinda funny and baffling when people just put some random numbers or unit stats or whatever from the game that are wrong even though you can quite easily check it from liquipedia tab at the top of the page, which has most knowledge from the game (build orders, unit stats, pro players, etc.) that are useful for easy accessing to a lot of information about the game. I just wish some people would explore the site a little.
hey, he also said that 150dmg still needs cleaning up by colossus, so at least he doesn't know the HP of a marauder either 
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On February 14 2012 06:32 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:29 s3rp wrote:On February 14 2012 06:27 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:24 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:08 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:04 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 04:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing.
For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right?
At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)...
You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice. What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up. And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs. The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming. Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons. Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon) 1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop. 2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind. You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes. The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point? I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom. But does HSM works against Ultra? And if not, what do you propose Terran should do with ultra switch? HSM doesn't, but auto-turret walls with marine/tank support do pretty well, you can actually dump auto-turrets to create chokes. With building armor upgraded they do hilariously well at slowing down the zerg ground army and getting a few extra tank volleys off. The ultras can kill the turrets in about 5-10 seconds, but that extra time with the huge DPS of the terran ground army is astounding. Plus, auto-turrets last like... 4 minutes with the upgrade, and they do decent damage. Just create a wall to block off the ultras and lings from reaching your siege tanks, and make a few marauders or thors (thors are fantastic vs. ultras, especially with strike cannon, and zerg doesn't have an anti-caster unit). Great, now we are expected to deals with ultras with... auto-turrets, now that's the plan all terrans can get behind, terrific. You misunderstand: I wasn't telling you that you have to do it, obviously you could make marauders, or any number of other things. I was suggesting a way that ravens could help significantly against ultras, that most people don't try. I have seen a few games where it was done, and it seemed pretty effective in combination with good army positioning. Drop 12 turrets off of 6 ravens and create walls, and laugh as the lings and ultras can't even reach your marines and tanks. Autoturrests are armored right ? Ultras will kill them in 2 or 3 hits then ? Don't think this works so well. The value isn't in how much damage the turrets do, but they're a strong force multiplier. Generally what happens when the fight starts is zerg runs in, tanks fire, marines shoot once or twice then get pulled back and split to avoid banelings or to avoid ling surrounds, then they engage again once they're safe while the tanks fire. Tanks get killed off, and then it's which army lives. With the turrets, you get an extra 5-10 seconds of your entire army shooting at the zerg force before you even have to worry about taking any damage at all. That's pretty significant, a large amount of zerg will die before anything terran dies.
This would be generally true, IF I could conjure ravens out of thin air. Sadly I lack this skill and thus it is very very likely, that my ground army is substantially smaller.
I don't know if you have ever tried to use auto turrets as an ad-hoc support in a fight. It's next to impossible to place them, while you retreat with your marines and lings swarm in. You get MAYBE two or three turrets down that won't help in any way. Turrets are bulky and require space that is unoccupied for about 1.5 ingame seconds. Which just does not happen in a TvZ engagement.
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On February 14 2012 16:30 TheBlueMeaner wrote:
It is going to be like broodwar all over again where mutas became useless after a certain number of corsairs came out, we are going to need a hydralisk buff for sure...
Personally I would like the 'light' tag removed from hydras, just so that they don't die to phoenix so easily (and may increase their viability vs T since hellions won't deal bonus damage)
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On February 14 2012 15:37 Resistentialism wrote:
BCs are generally better damage density per supply than void rays, outside charged voids hitting armoured targets. (and denser supply per build time, outside of constant chrono). I don't think anyone has really proven that it's easy to disengage cleanly from a handful of BCs lategame the same way you'd disengage from void rays in the early midgame.
Void rays are uniquely designed that you can run away from them to make them less of a threat, so long as they aren't already on top of your base. Then they have that thing where they can move and shoot at things that are running away from them that confuses that idea, but still.
You really claim, it's easy to disengage from a unit, that moves at a 2.25 speed AND shoots while following its target while it is harder to disengage from a unit with 1.85 move speed which can NOT shoot while chasing? lolwut?
Please now go and tell them zergies, that it is easy to disengage from their speedlings.. especially when compared to disengaging from hydras.
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On February 14 2012 15:37 Resistentialism wrote:
BCs are generally better damage density per supply than void rays, outside charged voids hitting armoured targets. (and denser supply per build time, outside of constant chrono). I don't think anyone has really proven that it's easy to disengage cleanly from a handful of BCs lategame the same way you'd disengage from void rays in the early midgame.
Void rays are uniquely designed that you can run away from them to make them less of a threat, so long as they aren't already on top of your base. Then they have that thing where they can move and shoot at things that are running away from them that confuses that idea, but still.
Open Unit Test put a Zealot rightly under the BC and make him attack .The Zealot will walk out of range of the BC with ~80 HP even if you don't have charge. Thats how easy it is to disengage BC's. Seriously even a Meching Terran can run from BC's since there's no way BC's will ever catch the unsieded tanks and Thors are the same speed so not catching those guys either.
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Are you kidding me? This has removed so much creativity from the game, I can't believe they did not consider the effect this will have on snipe vs marines/mining units. Previously there were a variety of interesting strategical options available to counter mass marine numbers with well-executed snipes, as well as some innovative ways to wipe out mineral lines with snipe. This is really outrageous, I used ghosts a lot against Terran for these purposes and now they're practically useless.
Also Snipe will no-longer kill banelings in one shot. All this patch will accomplish is removing 90% of the creativity and skill that Terran has to offer and encourage the same standard, boring, mass tank strategies that everyone without a brain continues to use.
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On February 11 2012 02:06 wichenks wrote:
APM / CPM changes
There was a lot of concern and debate regarding whether APM should be an accurate number or it should be a fun, play style distinguishing factor like it has been traditionally. After hearing a lot of feedback from both sides, we decided to bring back classic APM, and change our current APM (that doesn’t count spam clicks) to be called Commands Per Minute, or CPM.
This way, pro players who want to show off how fast their hands move can do so, while at the same time players who really just want to know how accurate and efficient their actions are can look at CPM.
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There was absolutely no reason to change APM. The new number they invented is literally meaningless. It's not APM and its not even EAPM, its just random mouse clicks and button presses that don't really tell you anything. The only change they should have made is to calculate APM in real time instead of blizzard minutes. I find it insulting that they would call their random number the 'more accurate' number. I think they made an error. It should be:
"There was a lot of concern and debate regarding whether APM should be a fun, play style distinguishing factor or it should be an accurate number like it has been traditionally."
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On February 14 2012 14:48 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 14:34 mlspmatt wrote:On February 14 2012 13:09 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 12:23 mlspmatt wrote:On February 14 2012 11:58 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 11:28 mlspmatt wrote:On February 14 2012 10:59 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 10:29 Vladoks wrote:
yeah feedback is a big problem for lategame tvp, terran has great units like thors (and well bcs.. i dont know) but can't use them because they lose their hp so fast with feedback :-/ u could emp your own units but ghosts and ghost energy are too precious for that That didn't stop Ryung against Tassadar, and it seemed to work pretty well. Assuming they hit feedback on your BC when it's at completely full energy, it won't even take out half it's hp, and you can EMP it or just Yamato a building or something (or even rocks!). As for upgrades folks, you get them anyway for your vikings. This is what people argue who have no valid arguments to make. Make Battle Cruisers. It's been tried, it doesn't work. If your in a Max v Max battle and want to remax with 4 battle Cruisers. After the battle you start building your BC's, and wait the 90s for them to build. In that 90 seconds Toss can use his 15 gates to wapr in 30 supply 3 times before your BC's hit the field. How do you suggest Terran survives during that 90 seconds when 24 supply is occupied in the starport? That's assuming BC's give you any real advantage, which they don't. 4 Stalkers are about the same cost as 1 BC, are much more mobile, have more health, very similar DPS (Both fully upgraded) and can be produced much much faster. It simply doesn't make sense to make BC's. And yes of course Terran will have marauders to handle the Stalkers, but protoss will have charge-Lots + Archons to handle the marauders. There's no advantage to making BC's. And if you take into consideration the cost of getting the BC tech, it's a losing proposition for terran. Who said anything about re-maxing on BC? When you're remaxing you want as many units as fast as possible so you don't die. It's like Protoss 'remaxing' on Carriers. Good way to die. I'm talking about at the point where you start sacking SCV's to increase army size don't waste your extra size on 4 more marauders when Protoss is already doing everything they can do counter exactly that. The 'upgrades' required are what, a Fusion core and a starport with tech lab? Terran can so afford that at that stage of the late game. The resources are there, the time is there, usually there are too big arse armies dancing around the map, Protoss are trying to get a decent re-max bank and finishing off upgrades. Terran are getting a PFs up and sacking SCV's to for a bigger army. And honestly, pick whatever unit you want, the BC is just an obvious choice. The fact is that Terran banks a shitload of gas in that stage of the game and uses their extra 25 army supply on units that Protoss already has a way to deal with. That 25 supply is Terran's edge in the late game, and it's being squandered away on a handful of extra marines, marauders and maybe an extra ghost. You could fit 3 BC's in there, Yamoto an SCV before battle and use the BC's to control space while you micro your bio. Love to see how those zealots fare as they chase a kiting bio army while under fire from 3 BCs. Yes, some damage will come from storms and feedback on the BCs, yes some stalkers will take them down, but I'd be willing to bet you'd get more value from 3 BCs as your 'bonus supply' than you will from 12 more Maruaders getting stormed and cut apart by colossus. First of all, Terrans are not going to invest in BC tech to make just one round of them. There will come a time when Terran needs to use them as part of their remax army, then they are stuck waiting for them to build while their base is being torn apart, or they engage and lose their entire army. Secondly you pawned off the Stalker issue by saying "Yes, some damage will come from storms and feedback on the BCs, yes some stalkers will take them down"this is what people say when they have no ligitimate response. They pawn it off as no big deal to minimize its importance, when it is the core of the issue. I didn't bring up fedback or storms in my earlier comment. I didn't need to, the Stalkers alone prove the point. There has to be a reason to spend all those resources on BC's and the tech required. There has to be an advantage gained somewhere or it's not worth the investment. You've not yet made a single point as to what advantage the BC's offer. They don't control any space with range 6. Sure, they'll kill a few extra Zealots while your bio army kites, but at the same time the stalkers are killing them. So I, the terran, killed a few extra Zealots with my BC's and your Stalkers killed my BC's. I think Protoss wins that one. You also added that BC's are just an example, and then don't suggest what unit exactley terrans should add that helps them. Thors? Ravens? What unit exactley is going to help Terran so much that it's better than the units that Terran has already invested in and upgraded? And it's not enough to suggest units without saying HOW exactley they are going to help, and if they are better than what terran already has. Otherwise your just "Throwing it out there" with little or no thought behind it and it's not worth much debate. Ok, the reason I didn't throw out 'how' to use it is because something like that needs to be workshopped with people who want to attempt to make it work instead of people who just want to say why it won't. So, there are two kinds of protoss death ball, stalker colossus and zealot colossus. Look at recent GSL Genius vs MKP for a great example of stalker colossus and Parting vs Jjakji for the zealot colossus variant. Obviously is you're facing stalker colossus BC is bad juju. Maybe thors are better in that situation since thors are better vs stalkers? Or maybe you should just be throwing away as many marines as you can and maxxing on pure maruader in that situation. Anyway, assuming you're facing a zealot heavy, low colossus count, low stalker count, high HT count composition like Parting fielded I think BC's would be a great addition for a couple of reasons: Zealots and colossus don't shoot up and the low stalker count will take forever to kill BCs. Infact, 3 BCs will probably kill all the stalkers first. Archons DO shoot up, and will get distracted by the BC. Their damage vs BC is pretty damn awful, so something tanking their damage is great. You can Yamoto the Colossus and / or focus fire the colossus and have no vikings at all. This means that when the colossus die you have supply that can shoot down, which is better than supply that can't shoot down. You can use the BC's as a pivot point to kite around making the micro tasks of the protoss player harder (stopping zealots and colossus from chasing the bio while the range shoots the BC for example). If the protoss player is grabbing HT's from all over the map to bring in storms then he won't be micro'ing his army much which means you can deal with the zealots without the pain of the archons and stalkers. The protoss will probably remax with a bunch of stalkers which eats his resources faster than zealot / HT -> archon meaning you know that remaxing marauder is a great idea. OK. If Terran can catch the protoss in Zealot/Archon/Colossus composition, I see how BC's can work. But it's very risky. If they're scouted and lose the element of surprise I think terran is in deep trouble and it's hard to hide starports from observers. In a straight up fight where both players know the other players composition, and react properly, I don't see the value in BC's. I don't think they offer any value for the extra cost of the tech required. But as a surprise they can work. But again, hiding BC's and their tech is going to be near impossible if the Toss is scouting properly. It's a big risk. Sure BC's can work under the right circumstances, but I don't see it as standard play - which is what we're talking about. Can you define "standard" play for me? Not trolling, just defining scope of discussion. I would think that with terran having such a hard time of "standard" play they would be look for solutions in the "non-standard" box to pull out and use. Especially situational stuff like 'Ah ha! he's over making zealots, slam down that fusion reactor and don't engage. Buy time for 2 BC then crush it". I think we've moved beyond "I get MMM + Ghost or Viking depending on if I see HT or Colossus first and just get as much of that as possible. I hope my EMPs are better than his storms."
In the phase of a game, where I can "slam down that fusion reactor" (it's fusion core btw) and get two BCs giving your opponent three minutes to do what he wants can be deadly. But well.. lets say I manage to surprise him with 2 BCs. Also lets say he doesn't just sack 20 zealot with a counter attack and then buys time (the crucial FIVE SECONDS) to warp in 20 stalkers. And lets also say that on the way to the engagemet - BCs moving at breakneck speed - I continue to hide my BCs from his observers.
The fight is there!! Terran gets rolled :/
How long does it take a +1 weapon BC to kill a single zealot (who in this phase will have 3/1/3)? 6 shots through the shields, then 20 shots through the HP. So my mighty battlecruiser kills a zealot every 5.85 seconds. Rawr. THAT turns the tide. WIth the typical engagement lasting 10 seconds tops before I have stutter stepped my bio army way out of reach of the BC range, each BC kills TWO zealots. Yes.. eat that protoss. But then you say: Focus the colossus!
Colossus takes 19 shots through shields and then 40 shots through the hull. Two BCs firing bring a colossus down in 6.6 seconds. Thus my bio just has to endure 26seconds of colossus fire (or 40 volleys). You know how a bio army looks after 40 volleys of a colossus? Toasted.
But maybe the toss is a standard toss who just a-moves and then claps his hand while he giggles gleefully. In THIS case, BC are slightly more useful, because the archons fire at them. But honestly.. in this case I rather float factories over my army. They are cheaper, have WAY more hp and cost no supply and I can build them MUCH MUCH quicker and closer to the battlefield.
Now if you start me on the yamato cannon to take down those colossus... then you stretch the time you need to get BCs with yamato by another 2 minutes... just to get feedbacked by the HT that will be in the army.
So how do YOU envision the 'BC a la surprise' to work? Buy SOMEHOW more time while you research ship weapons lvl 2+3? It's just a measely 410 seconds - SEVEN MINUTES!
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EPT
