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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 20 2012 03:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 03:04 Sadist wrote:On February 20 2012 02:29 Charon1979 wrote:On February 20 2012 01:10 Sadist wrote:
I think we need an across the board nerf to spellcasters.
This game is becoming really boring from a terran perspective. You litterally cannot attack effectively because of the shittyness that is spellcasters.
Its basically whoever gets bored first and attacks first into a concave loses.
The Spellcaster nerf is before or after the siegetank/marine nerf? The reason why you need these stupid casters are 3/3 marines. Coupled with a few siege tanks they melt through anything thats not broodlord + Corruptor + infestor. a nerf for ALL spell casters, not just zerg. Yeah because those "ghost, infestor, HT"-comparisons make so much sense... The Infestor is used as a zerg "siege tank", the HT is used as a Protoss "siege tank". Not to mention what a sentry nerf would do... Those units all fullfill completly different roles in their armies. Also, most people complain about the game having to little power units to begin with. (not my complaint; I think it's pretty good)
that is entirely my point.
Those are all much better than siege tanks. You end up getting into stalled games because there is no efficient way for terran to attack.
Maybe map design will fix it. Blizzard sure as hell isn't with their constant terran nerfs.
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On February 20 2012 03:44 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 03:16 Big J wrote:On February 20 2012 03:04 Sadist wrote:On February 20 2012 02:29 Charon1979 wrote:On February 20 2012 01:10 Sadist wrote:
I think we need an across the board nerf to spellcasters.
This game is becoming really boring from a terran perspective. You litterally cannot attack effectively because of the shittyness that is spellcasters.
Its basically whoever gets bored first and attacks first into a concave loses.
The Spellcaster nerf is before or after the siegetank/marine nerf? The reason why you need these stupid casters are 3/3 marines. Coupled with a few siege tanks they melt through anything thats not broodlord + Corruptor + infestor. a nerf for ALL spell casters, not just zerg. Yeah because those "ghost, infestor, HT"-comparisons make so much sense... The Infestor is used as a zerg "siege tank", the HT is used as a Protoss "siege tank". Not to mention what a sentry nerf would do... Those units all fullfill completly different roles in their armies. Also, most people complain about the game having to little power units to begin with. (not my complaint; I think it's pretty good) that is entirely my point. Those are all much better than siege tanks. You end up getting into stalled games because there is no efficient way for terran to attack. Maybe map design will fix it. Blizzard sure as hell isn't with their constant terran nerfs.
Could you go more into depth, because for me this sounds right now like Terran is not supposed to get into a stalled position, while you don't mind if the other races do (which I think is not what you want to say).
Also I disagree that the siege tanks are worse than Infestors or HT. Just comparing the damage of Fungal, sieged Tanks and Storms its Storm>Tank>Fungal, while vs air it is Fungal>Storm and in range it's Tank>Fungal=Storm etc.
They fulfill similar roles, but they are still not really compareable by how good they are.
(though in a random scenario, I would take the infestor due to variety while Siege Tanks on Zerg would imo be completly broken... I mean instead of the 6Infestor IT timing I could do a 8tank timing... that would be just sick)
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On February 20 2012 04:08 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 03:44 Sadist wrote:On February 20 2012 03:16 Big J wrote:On February 20 2012 03:04 Sadist wrote:On February 20 2012 02:29 Charon1979 wrote:On February 20 2012 01:10 Sadist wrote:
I think we need an across the board nerf to spellcasters.
This game is becoming really boring from a terran perspective. You litterally cannot attack effectively because of the shittyness that is spellcasters.
Its basically whoever gets bored first and attacks first into a concave loses.
The Spellcaster nerf is before or after the siegetank/marine nerf? The reason why you need these stupid casters are 3/3 marines. Coupled with a few siege tanks they melt through anything thats not broodlord + Corruptor + infestor. a nerf for ALL spell casters, not just zerg. Yeah because those "ghost, infestor, HT"-comparisons make so much sense... The Infestor is used as a zerg "siege tank", the HT is used as a Protoss "siege tank". Not to mention what a sentry nerf would do... Those units all fullfill completly different roles in their armies. Also, most people complain about the game having to little power units to begin with. (not my complaint; I think it's pretty good) that is entirely my point. Those are all much better than siege tanks. You end up getting into stalled games because there is no efficient way for terran to attack. Maybe map design will fix it. Blizzard sure as hell isn't with their constant terran nerfs. Could you go more into depth, because for me this sounds right now like Terran is not supposed to get into a stalled position, while you don't mind if the other races do (which I think is not what you want to say). Also I disagree that the siege tanks are worse than Infestors or HT. Just comparing the damage of Fungal, sieged Tanks and Storms its Storm>Tank>Fungal, while vs air it is Fungal>Storm and in range it's Tank>Fungal=Storm etc. They fulfill similar roles, but they are still not really compareable by how good they are. (though in a random scenario, I would take the infestor due to variety while Siege Tanks on Zerg would imo be completly broken... I mean instead of the 6Infestor IT timing I could do a 8tank timing... that would be just sick)
Z and P can reproduce infinitely faster than terran can. They can afford to "waste time" and get the absolute perfect army composition they want to try to engage the terran. Terran can't do that, any time they try to attack there is significantly more risk since to reproduce takes ages compared to Z and P. Also, lets be realistic here, terran's mobility is shit compared to Z and P so its never like terran would have a larger portion of the map. You already see how bad people complain on split maps with even resources (shakuras).
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On February 20 2012 03:13 RUS RO DAH!!! wrote:
David Kim and crew really dropped the ball on this patch. Terran needs early game nerf not late game. They can do away with the bunker salvage all together and leave snipe alone.
shhh.
while i kind of agree with this, i do think snipe is still too much. i want both changes!
snipe and bunker nerfs... nom nom nom.
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On February 20 2012 02:47 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 02:13 Noocta wrote:On February 20 2012 01:49 Big J wrote:On February 20 2012 01:36 Noocta wrote:On February 20 2012 00:57 Kira__ wrote:On February 20 2012 00:34 PureBalls wrote:On February 20 2012 00:22 vileChAnCe wrote:
fix fucking vortex already this is bonkers that they are releasing another patch and they still have no adressed it.... jesus There already is a fix. Its called spreading. Indeed, and apparently the fix also applies for vikings, making them a viable counter for broodlords Fungal is not the only thing that make Viking not a reliable solution to Broodlords. Corruptors are able to be produce in mass at this stage of the game, and once zerg have air superiority, you won't catch up. These things are so beefy ( 200 hp, 2 armor ) it's really hard to kill the corruptor cloud protection the BLs. That's why viking work great for the first BLs attack, they don't have a lot of corruptor support since most of them have been morph into BLs. how I love those argumentations based on: -) zerg has infinte production, so they can always outproduce and remax -) zerg has infinte money, so they can always outproduce and remax -) zerg unit X is really good, so Terran units cannot beat it so many "facts"... Lategame is lategame, money is rarely a problem. There's almost always a time where zerg is on 3 full mineral mining bases with 8 gas income ( that's not omg huge, it's only 4 bases or 5 is the main is already mined out) In an even game, where Terran didn't cripple zerg too much before 20/25min, zerg will definitly be able to get to the BLs/infestor/corruptor army we are discussing here. And if the BLs army don't get smash too early, they will have a bank to do one Ultra remax. It's NOT just imagination and theory. Most TvZ who go pass the 20min mark look like this. In an even game in which Zerg couldn't hinder Terran from taking the 3-4 relevant mining bases at the roughly the same speed as Zerg, the Terran will end up with a setup to match the zerg production in 2-3 cycles in supply. That's roughly the time it takes for a zerg to get out one cycle of quality units (that are able to combat lategame Terran) and get it over the map. If a zerg is not able to completly trade with a Terran army, there is no way that the second wave will be in time to overrun him out of an even position (assuming you are not playing Steppes of War). THIS is what we see all the time from macro Terrans. What you described is a Terran that has cut economy+infrastructure and failed a huge attack (or threw away too many units harassing) and is holding on for dear life reaching one huge maxed army to fight one last combat and hope a crushing victory can bring him back.
U can't defend 3-4 bases as terran as easily as a zerg can. Zerg is, and should, always be ahead on bases. When a terran has the army to defend a 4th, he's almost already maxed. And by that time the terran army is mostly marine/tank, and zerg should already have hive to deal with it (if not, at least infestors to stall).
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On February 20 2012 04:15 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 04:08 Big J wrote:On February 20 2012 03:44 Sadist wrote:On February 20 2012 03:16 Big J wrote:On February 20 2012 03:04 Sadist wrote:On February 20 2012 02:29 Charon1979 wrote:On February 20 2012 01:10 Sadist wrote:
I think we need an across the board nerf to spellcasters.
This game is becoming really boring from a terran perspective. You litterally cannot attack effectively because of the shittyness that is spellcasters.
Its basically whoever gets bored first and attacks first into a concave loses.
The Spellcaster nerf is before or after the siegetank/marine nerf? The reason why you need these stupid casters are 3/3 marines. Coupled with a few siege tanks they melt through anything thats not broodlord + Corruptor + infestor. a nerf for ALL spell casters, not just zerg. Yeah because those "ghost, infestor, HT"-comparisons make so much sense... The Infestor is used as a zerg "siege tank", the HT is used as a Protoss "siege tank". Not to mention what a sentry nerf would do... Those units all fullfill completly different roles in their armies. Also, most people complain about the game having to little power units to begin with. (not my complaint; I think it's pretty good) that is entirely my point. Those are all much better than siege tanks. You end up getting into stalled games because there is no efficient way for terran to attack. Maybe map design will fix it. Blizzard sure as hell isn't with their constant terran nerfs. Could you go more into depth, because for me this sounds right now like Terran is not supposed to get into a stalled position, while you don't mind if the other races do (which I think is not what you want to say). Also I disagree that the siege tanks are worse than Infestors or HT. Just comparing the damage of Fungal, sieged Tanks and Storms its Storm>Tank>Fungal, while vs air it is Fungal>Storm and in range it's Tank>Fungal=Storm etc. They fulfill similar roles, but they are still not really compareable by how good they are. (though in a random scenario, I would take the infestor due to variety while Siege Tanks on Zerg would imo be completly broken... I mean instead of the 6Infestor IT timing I could do a 8tank timing... that would be just sick) Z and P can reproduce infinitely faster than terran can. They can afford to "waste time" and get the absolute perfect army composition they want to try to engage the terran. Terran can't do that, any time they try to attack there is significantly more risk since to reproduce takes ages compared to Z and P. Also, lets be realistic here, terran's mobility is shit compared to Z and P so its never like terran would have a larger portion of the map. You already see how bad people complain on split maps with even resources (shakuras).
I disagree with the perfect army composition.
The problem Terrans are facing in TvP right now, is that they don't really have a dream composition to transition into, due to feedback shutting down nearly every possibility. *Maybe* BCs are a good transition or Mech/biomech could be somewhat even (that's why we see experiments with both of them right now even in the GSL), but apart from that MMMVG is already pretty much the best I can imagine - (which I agree, is a terrible dream composition compared to what a Protoss can get to; and if it stays this way, Terrans will eventually drop in winrates and blizzard will react)
Against Zerg, both Mech+Viking (maybe Raven) and Tank/Marine/Ghost/Medivac/Viking are pretty much dreamcombos. I guess monobio is not viable and monoair close to unreachable, but those two can match any zerg composition in a battle of control. (not to mention that the mass ghost/tank right now "seems" unbeatable by any zerg composition - that's why they nerf the ghost - at least I have yet to see a zerg that wins the battle against this composition and I honestly can't think of a theoretical unit composition that could do it)
And the lategame reinforcement is dealable. But like Zerg early (that lacks early production to produce drones and army), Terrans need to play reactive at this point in time. It pretty much forces Terran to only attack when maxed, but that's not really a balance issue, just a question of patience (=skill).
The problem of shakuras is not the stalemate on even ressources, but the stalemate with Zerg not being able to take and hold the pocket expansions. If it wasn't for those expansions being so easily siegeable, the map would be in a league with daybreak and cloud kingdom. (and if you follow the mapmaker scene, there are a lot of people who actually still think shakuras is one of the best maps around)
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On February 20 2012 05:38 Torra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 02:47 Big J wrote:On February 20 2012 02:13 Noocta wrote:On February 20 2012 01:49 Big J wrote:On February 20 2012 01:36 Noocta wrote:On February 20 2012 00:57 Kira__ wrote:On February 20 2012 00:34 PureBalls wrote:On February 20 2012 00:22 vileChAnCe wrote:
fix fucking vortex already this is bonkers that they are releasing another patch and they still have no adressed it.... jesus There already is a fix. Its called spreading. Indeed, and apparently the fix also applies for vikings, making them a viable counter for broodlords Fungal is not the only thing that make Viking not a reliable solution to Broodlords. Corruptors are able to be produce in mass at this stage of the game, and once zerg have air superiority, you won't catch up. These things are so beefy ( 200 hp, 2 armor ) it's really hard to kill the corruptor cloud protection the BLs. That's why viking work great for the first BLs attack, they don't have a lot of corruptor support since most of them have been morph into BLs. how I love those argumentations based on: -) zerg has infinte production, so they can always outproduce and remax -) zerg has infinte money, so they can always outproduce and remax -) zerg unit X is really good, so Terran units cannot beat it so many "facts"... Lategame is lategame, money is rarely a problem. There's almost always a time where zerg is on 3 full mineral mining bases with 8 gas income ( that's not omg huge, it's only 4 bases or 5 is the main is already mined out) In an even game, where Terran didn't cripple zerg too much before 20/25min, zerg will definitly be able to get to the BLs/infestor/corruptor army we are discussing here. And if the BLs army don't get smash too early, they will have a bank to do one Ultra remax. It's NOT just imagination and theory. Most TvZ who go pass the 20min mark look like this. In an even game in which Zerg couldn't hinder Terran from taking the 3-4 relevant mining bases at the roughly the same speed as Zerg, the Terran will end up with a setup to match the zerg production in 2-3 cycles in supply. That's roughly the time it takes for a zerg to get out one cycle of quality units (that are able to combat lategame Terran) and get it over the map. If a zerg is not able to completly trade with a Terran army, there is no way that the second wave will be in time to overrun him out of an even position (assuming you are not playing Steppes of War). THIS is what we see all the time from macro Terrans. What you described is a Terran that has cut economy+infrastructure and failed a huge attack (or threw away too many units harassing) and is holding on for dear life reaching one huge maxed army to fight one last combat and hope a crushing victory can bring him back. U can't defend 3-4 bases as terran as easily as a zerg can. Zerg is, and should, always be ahead on bases. When a terran has the army to defend a 4th, he's almost already maxed. And by that time the terran army is mostly marine/tank, and zerg should already have hive to deal with it (if not, at least infestors to stall).
plz tell that to the GSL Terrans.
The dynamic right now is that Terrans take their 3rd when the Zerg third finishes ~10-11min. Zergs usual (macro) reaction then is to start a 4th around 12 (which doesn't provide a lot apart from gas, because all other 3bases are still mining) while Terrans take their 4th around 14-15min.
If not a lot happens in a game, Zerg will be at Broodlords ~18min, with most of his supply in ling/bling/muta.
Zerg in SC2 does not need to be ahead in (mining) bases in TvZ (due to queens), they only need to take their bases first and fast to force a reaction from Terran. (But there are strategies that focus around having more bases than Terran and therefore getting ahead in the eco - mostly mass ling builds, that fall behind in tech)
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On February 20 2012 00:19 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 21:37 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 10:15 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 10:10 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 10:04 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:48 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:29 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:21 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:15 s3rp wrote:
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You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 .... It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself. Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft. Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs. But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see. You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time. On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit. You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ. If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field. I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines. Well against Mutas you will def need Marines or a buttload of well upgraded Thors ^^ . Either you play full Mech with a at least somewhat decent Thor count or you will need Marines and Upgrades for them. And if he sees you completely abandon Marines there's nothing stopping the Zerg from just switching back to Mutas . Vikings even on way better upgrades are not an option . And don't get me started at how bad they are on the ground. I've just tested some random nonsense in the unit tester. Believe it or not, PDD is not all that powerful against mutas. BUT the upgraded auto-turret (building armor and high sec tracking) rapes mutas so hard, its not even funny. 125 HP, 3 armor, 7 range, 8 damage per shot and a 0,8 attack cooldown. Very, very powerful. What I tried, was to find a combination, that excluded marines and had 0/0 upgrades, but could rape 30 mutas which have 3/3 upgrades. And look at this: 1) only vikings with no upgrades, with 3 ravens for PDDs. Cost wise, thats 3000/3000 for zerg (plus the 3/3 upgrades) and only 3000/1950 for terran. Supplies were 60 vs 42, z and t resp. I assumed the ravens would have full energy, which is not totally realistic, but nor is the insane upgrade advantage for the zerg. The terran army consisting of 3 ravens and 18 vikings failed horribly. 19 mutas were left. Then I tried instead of the PDD, to employ auto-turrets (+2 building armor and +1 range upgraded). With 3 full energy ravens you can place down 12 (!) of these suckers. This time, only 16 mutas survived. 2) I tried to mix in thors, for better damage output. Again 30 mutas with 3/3 ups (= 60 supply) against a non upgraded terran army. 3 thors, 3 ravens and 12 vikings, making it a 48 supply army. Cost 3000/2100. Again, I tried PPD first. I placed down the PDDs, and attacked with the mutas spread out (magic box). 20 (!!!) mutas survived! Then I tried with auto-turrets: ALL mutas DEAD, and on the terran side 3 ravens, 4 vikings, 1 thor and 10 auto-turrets survived. And let me remind you, that the zerg army had 3/3 upgrades, was 60 supply and costed 3000/3000. The terran army had 0/0 upgrades, costed 3000/2100 and had 48 supply. Conclusion: 1) ultra hardcore mass muta can be dealt with entirely w/o marines in a straight up battle. 2) the most powerful raven spell is, oddly, the auto-turret. At least vs mass muta. I really didnt expect that. Next, I will experiment with BCs vs zerg. Just doing work in the unit tester does not work , try it in real game situations and you will see what the problems are with this. If the opponent has 30 Mutas he will never engage you unless he catches you in a bad spot by backstabbing you all the time . And it's pretty hard to stop massive mutas harassment without Marines while also taking more then 3 bases and keeping the Zerg from taking the whole freaking Map. I'm pretty certain for example BC's would do very well against Mutas in the Units Tester. Doesn't mean it would in real game situation since you will not get that same situation in the game.
Yeah. What happens when you use all your auto turrets to defend a base, then the mutas just attack another base? When you fugure that out in the unit tester, come back and let us know.
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On February 20 2012 06:04 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 05:38 Torra wrote:On February 20 2012 02:47 Big J wrote:On February 20 2012 02:13 Noocta wrote:On February 20 2012 01:49 Big J wrote:On February 20 2012 01:36 Noocta wrote:On February 20 2012 00:57 Kira__ wrote:On February 20 2012 00:34 PureBalls wrote:On February 20 2012 00:22 vileChAnCe wrote:
fix fucking vortex already this is bonkers that they are releasing another patch and they still have no adressed it.... jesus There already is a fix. Its called spreading. Indeed, and apparently the fix also applies for vikings, making them a viable counter for broodlords Fungal is not the only thing that make Viking not a reliable solution to Broodlords. Corruptors are able to be produce in mass at this stage of the game, and once zerg have air superiority, you won't catch up. These things are so beefy ( 200 hp, 2 armor ) it's really hard to kill the corruptor cloud protection the BLs. That's why viking work great for the first BLs attack, they don't have a lot of corruptor support since most of them have been morph into BLs. how I love those argumentations based on: -) zerg has infinte production, so they can always outproduce and remax -) zerg has infinte money, so they can always outproduce and remax -) zerg unit X is really good, so Terran units cannot beat it so many "facts"... Lategame is lategame, money is rarely a problem. There's almost always a time where zerg is on 3 full mineral mining bases with 8 gas income ( that's not omg huge, it's only 4 bases or 5 is the main is already mined out) In an even game, where Terran didn't cripple zerg too much before 20/25min, zerg will definitly be able to get to the BLs/infestor/corruptor army we are discussing here. And if the BLs army don't get smash too early, they will have a bank to do one Ultra remax. It's NOT just imagination and theory. Most TvZ who go pass the 20min mark look like this. In an even game in which Zerg couldn't hinder Terran from taking the 3-4 relevant mining bases at the roughly the same speed as Zerg, the Terran will end up with a setup to match the zerg production in 2-3 cycles in supply. That's roughly the time it takes for a zerg to get out one cycle of quality units (that are able to combat lategame Terran) and get it over the map. If a zerg is not able to completly trade with a Terran army, there is no way that the second wave will be in time to overrun him out of an even position (assuming you are not playing Steppes of War). THIS is what we see all the time from macro Terrans. What you described is a Terran that has cut economy+infrastructure and failed a huge attack (or threw away too many units harassing) and is holding on for dear life reaching one huge maxed army to fight one last combat and hope a crushing victory can bring him back. U can't defend 3-4 bases as terran as easily as a zerg can. Zerg is, and should, always be ahead on bases. When a terran has the army to defend a 4th, he's almost already maxed. And by that time the terran army is mostly marine/tank, and zerg should already have hive to deal with it (if not, at least infestors to stall). plz tell that to the GSL Terrans. The dynamic right now is that Terrans take their 3rd when the Zerg third finishes ~10-11min. Zergs usual (macro) reaction then is to start a 4th around 12 (which doesn't provide a lot apart from gas, because all other 3bases are still mining) while Terrans take their 4th around 14-15min. If not a lot happens in a game, Zerg will be at Broodlords ~18min, with most of his supply in ling/bling/muta. Zerg in SC2 does not need to be ahead in (mining) bases in TvZ (due to queens), they only need to take their bases first and fast to force a reaction from Terran. (But there are strategies that focus around having more bases than Terran and therefore getting ahead in the eco - mostly mass ling builds, that fall behind in tech)
I agree. (terran can even start his 3rd in the main earlier than zerg starts his 3rd). What I meant is the zerg will be ahead on at most one base in an even game (pretty much as u said).
Basically zerg can do pretty much what they want if terran turtles on 3-4 bases becasue the terran limits his map control by doing so. And unless you're playing like MVP and just let the zerg attack you, I think it's hard for terran to get the proper units to deal with BL+infestor.
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Such a great patch.
Incredible props to Blizz. <3
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EPT
