EPTThis game is becoming really boring from a terran perspective. You litterally cannot attack effectively because of the shittyness that is spellcasters.
Its basically whoever gets bored first and attacks first into a concave loses.
Patch 1.4.3 - Preview Blog - Page 222
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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay. Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. | ||
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Sadist
United States7328 Posts
This game is becoming really boring from a terran perspective. You litterally cannot attack effectively because of the shittyness that is spellcasters. Its basically whoever gets bored first and attacks first into a concave loses. | ||
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PureBalls
Austria383 Posts
On February 20 2012 01:10 Sadist wrote: I think we need an across the board nerf to spellcasters. This game is becoming really boring from a terran perspective. You litterally cannot attack effectively because of the shittyness that is spellcasters. Its basically whoever gets bored first and attacks first into a concave loses. I dont think you would like it, if casters were to be nerfed. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On February 20 2012 00:57 Kira__ wrote: Indeed, and apparently the fix also applies for vikings, making them a viable counter for broodlords Fungal is not the only thing that make Viking not a reliable solution to Broodlords. Corruptors are able to be produce in mass at this stage of the game, and once zerg have air superiority, you won't catch up. These things are so beefy ( 200 hp, 2 armor ) it's really hard to kill the corruptor cloud protection the BLs. That's why viking work great for the first BLs attack, they don't have a lot of corruptor support since most of them have been morph into BLs. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 20 2012 01:36 Noocta wrote: Fungal is not the only thing that make Viking not a reliable solution to Broodlords. Corruptors are able to be produce in mass at this stage of the game, and once zerg have air superiority, you won't catch up. These things are so beefy ( 200 hp, 2 armor ) it's really hard to kill the corruptor cloud protection the BLs. That's why viking work great for the first BLs attack, they don't have a lot of corruptor support since most of them have been morph into BLs. how I love those argumentations based on: -) zerg has infinte production, so they can always outproduce and remax -) zerg has infinte money, so they can always outproduce and remax -) zerg unit X is really good, so Terran units cannot beat it so many "facts"... | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
On February 20 2012 01:49 Big J wrote: how I love those argumentations based on: -) zerg has infinte production, so they can always outproduce and remax -) zerg has infinte money, so they can always outproduce and remax -) zerg unit X is really good, so Terran units cannot beat it so many "facts"... Lategame is lategame, money is rarely a problem. There's almost always a time where zerg is on 3 full mineral mining bases with 8 gas income ( that's not omg huge, it's only 4 bases or 5 is the main is already mined out) In an even game, where Terran didn't cripple zerg too much before 20/25min, zerg will definitly be able to get to the BLs/infestor/corruptor army we are discussing here. And if the BLs army don't get smash too early, they will have a bank to do one Ultra remax. It's NOT just imagination and theory. Most TvZ who go pass the 20min mark look like this. | ||
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Charon1979
Austria317 Posts
On February 20 2012 01:10 Sadist wrote: I think we need an across the board nerf to spellcasters. This game is becoming really boring from a terran perspective. You litterally cannot attack effectively because of the shittyness that is spellcasters. Its basically whoever gets bored first and attacks first into a concave loses. The Spellcaster nerf is before or after the siegetank/marine nerf? The reason why you need these stupid casters are 3/3 marines. Coupled with a few siege tanks they melt through anything thats not broodlord + Corruptor + infestor. | ||
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mlspmatt
Canada404 Posts
On February 19 2012 21:33 Origine wrote: I highly disagree with you. TvT. Why would you upgrade 3-3 for marines if u make less of them? You still make tons of them as well as tanks/medivacs/viks, assuming the game is a standard Marine/Tank vs Marine/Tank. Only tanks vs Marines/tanks rly suck cauz you have no meatshield. Having less marines = less drops/less mobility. TvP. In late game, you're supposed to have what counters AoE units from Protoss, aka Vikings and Ghosts. If you manage to snipe the obs and are abble to shut down templars/archons and colossi, your marines still live and do their job. It's not an arguable point. Marines are of less value in the late game. You can disagree all you want, but a fact is still a fact whether or not you diasgree. | ||
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6660 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:34 mlspmatt wrote: It's not an arguable point. Marines are of less value in the late game. You can disagree all you want, but a fact is still a fact whether or not you diasgree. But your so called 'fact' is not a fact. it's a personal opinion.... Marines late game still only cost 50 minerals and still have some of the highest dps in the game at 3/3 upgrades are flat out amazing. Yes they can die easily, but late game 50 minerals is nothing to even have that dps for the couple of seconds before being killed. Stimmed marines are always pretty much always cost efficient and are always good value. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:13 Noocta wrote: Lategame is lategame, money is rarely a problem. There's almost always a time where zerg is on 3 full mineral mining bases with 8 gas income ( that's not omg huge, it's only 4 bases or 5 is the main is already mined out) In an even game, where Terran didn't cripple zerg too much before 20/25min, zerg will definitly be able to get to the BLs/infestor/corruptor army we are discussing here. And if the BLs army don't get smash too early, they will have a bank to do one Ultra remax. It's NOT just imagination and theory. Most TvZ who go pass the 20min mark look like this. In an even game in which Zerg couldn't hinder Terran from taking the 3-4 relevant mining bases at the roughly the same speed as Zerg, the Terran will end up with a setup to match the zerg production in 2-3 cycles in supply. That's roughly the time it takes for a zerg to get out one cycle of quality units (that are able to combat lategame Terran) and get it over the map. If a zerg is not able to completly trade with a Terran army, there is no way that the second wave will be in time to overrun him out of an even position (assuming you are not playing Steppes of War). THIS is what we see all the time from macro Terrans. What you described is a Terran that has cut economy+infrastructure and failed a huge attack (or threw away too many units harassing) and is holding on for dear life reaching one huge maxed army to fight one last combat and hope a crushing victory can bring him back. | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:47 Big J wrote: In an even game in which Zerg couldn't hinder Terran from taking the 3-4 relevant mining bases at the roughly the same speed as Zerg, the Terran will end up with a setup to match the zerg production in 2-3 cycles in supply. That's roughly the time it takes for a zerg to get out one cycle of quality units (that are able to combat lategame Terran) and get it over the map. If a zerg is not able to completly trade with a Terran army, there is no way that the second wave will be in time to overrun him out of an even position (assuming you are not playing Steppes of War). THIS is what we see all the time from macro Terrans. What you described is a Terran that has cut economy+infrastructure and failed a huge attack (or threw away too many units harassing) and is holding on for dear life reaching one huge maxed army to fight one last combat and hope a crushing victory can bring him back. I'm glad you can know what's inside eggs. Unfortunately, we mere mortals cannot. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
i mean highest level TvZ was already pretty even in dec-jan 2012; doesn't get much closer than MMA vs DRG. i know some zergs will start crying until the score is a dead 50-50 but let's ignore them - how annoying. a deviation of 1-5% can easily be fixed by tweaking the maps. | ||
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Sadist
United States7328 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:29 Charon1979 wrote: The Spellcaster nerf is before or after the siegetank/marine nerf? The reason why you need these stupid casters are 3/3 marines. Coupled with a few siege tanks they melt through anything thats not broodlord + Corruptor + infestor. a nerf for ALL spell casters, not just zerg. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:54 TheDwf wrote: I'm glad you can know what's inside eggs. Unfortunately, we mere mortals cannot. you don't need to know. There is no unit apart from the Broodlord that can break a proper tank position. I guess you cannot move out until you know what you need to win open field. Well, that's 55sec at most until the ultras hatch. If you see corruptors before that, you can go back to viking production and you are more than fine, because Zerg needs to invest most of his money into BLs to deal with your ground and can't have many corruptors. | ||
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RUS RO DAH!!!
United States277 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 20 2012 03:04 Sadist wrote: a nerf for ALL spell casters, not just zerg. Yeah because those "ghost, infestor, HT"-comparisons make so much sense... The Infestor is used as a zerg "siege tank", the HT is used as a Protoss "siege tank". Not to mention what a sentry nerf would do... Those units all fullfill completly different roles in their armies. Also, most people complain about the game having to little power units to begin with. (not my complaint; I think it's pretty good) | ||
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Rassy
Netherlands2308 Posts
When terran has 3-3 marines toss and zerg can/will have 3-3 as well, wich comes down to everything beeing 0-0 marines at 3-3 are basicly weaker then when everything is at 0-0 since colos and roach gets+2 for every weapon upgrade wich cant be counterd by the+1 armour 3-3 makes marines significantly better against 3-3 muta though | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On February 20 2012 03:16 Big J wrote: Yeah because those "ghost, infestor, HT"-comparisons make so much sense... The Infestor is used as a zerg "siege tank", the HT is used as a Protoss "siege tank". Not to mention what a sentry nerf would do... Those units all fullfill completly different roles in their armies. Also, most people complain about the game having to little power units to begin with. (not my complaint; I think it's pretty good) And what the Terran Siege Tank in TvP . The Siege Tank sadly isn't .... | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On February 20 2012 03:28 s3rp wrote: And what the Terran Siege Tank in TvP . The Siege Tank sadly isn't .... was the topic of my post to talk about the design flaws of PvT or was it to talk about stupid "spellcaster" comparisons? | ||
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Blyadischa
419 Posts
In the late game, you want supply efficiency. You want as much resources devoted into units as possible. Marines are cost-efficient, but in the late game, they are not supply efficient. If you try with a unit composition of too many marines and fight you may be "cost effective" but you WILL lose the fight and then the game. | ||
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nemonic
132 Posts
On February 20 2012 02:13 Noocta wrote: Lategame is lategame, money is rarely a problem. There's almost always a time where zerg is on 3 full mineral mining bases with 8 gas income ( that's not omg huge, it's only 4 bases or 5 is the main is already mined out) In an even game, where Terran didn't cripple zerg too much before 20/25min, zerg will definitly be able to get to the BLs/infestor/corruptor army we are discussing here. And if the BLs army don't get smash too early, they will have a bank to do one Ultra remax. It's NOT just imagination and theory. Most TvZ who go pass the 20min mark look like this. Saying that money isn't a problem in lategame is questionable. Infestor/Broodlord/Corrupter might be the most gas heavy unit composition in the entire game and upgrades are also still costly in the lategame. Eight gas income is by far not enough to keep up a decent Inf/BL/C army assuming that there will be at least some skirmishes from time to time. From my experience vikings are still very viable against this composition, because you can kite the corrupters without getting in range of fungals. And in case the Infestors get in range you can emp/snipe them with ghosts. It's not that it's easy but I think it's a fair trade for both sides. Also, adding a single Raven with PDD is extremely strong in such situations. | ||
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