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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 19 2012 10:23 Origine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 10:10 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 10:04 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:48 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:29 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:21 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:15 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:04 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 08:52 PureBalls wrote:
[quote]
No! Any protoss that fails that hard, and allows his mothership to be NP'ed should get raped. And I'm saying this as a toss player
And I am aware of the BL/Inf synergy. But I do believe that terrans will, just as protoss have done, learn to deal with it. But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed. Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least. You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 .... It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself. Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft. Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs. But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see. You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time. On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit. You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ. If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field. I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines. Again, you're wrong from the beginning to the end. Marines DONT lose their value, u fail to realize that once they are upgraded with shield/stim/3-3 + healed by medivac, they easily could be considered tier 2 or even 2.5, imagine if you micro them a tiny bit.. Marines do the same amount of damage as the maurader, but with higher fire rate + you get them from reactor aka 2 by 2 aka u reinforce your army much faster than getting marauders/ghosts only.
This is all irrelevant in the late game. Against BL/Inf you dont want a high DPS army, that can be obliterated with 2 fungals. Because of no way to resupply as fast as the zerg (protoss have the same problem), what you want is an army that can endure a lot of punishment. And for that, you mus sacrifice DPS. Protoss are doing the same thing, by prioritizing blink stalkers vs HTs. Stalkers have the worst DPS per cost in the entire game, but thanks to blink they have crazy staying power. HTs have sick DPS, but "thanks" to their low HP and slow movement speed have laughable staying power.
Look at it this way: if you make marines in the late game, you either manage to pull off a miracle by EMPing all infestors, then you just stim you marines, move them under the BLs, rape the shit out of them, and type "/dance". OR (and this is a far more realistic scenario), you EMP/snipe like 50% of the infestors, they fungal your marine clump, and you lose horribly.
Where the marauder comes in, is the part with the sick AoE zergs have in the late game. Per cost, you do get more HP and armor, which basically results in a unit, that is harder to lose by making a small mistake (macroing and not looking at the army for 1 sec...). The thing is, when casting spells, it is exponentially harder to pull of, the longer it takes to take effect. 2 chain fungals timed perfectly (to kill marines) are much easier, than 3 for the marauders. Marauders are also more efficient when fighting against banelings, roaches and ultras. They essentially take care of the ground, when they are upgraded, and have a bit help from siege tanks. This leaves you worrying only about the air. And for that, check my previous posting.
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On February 19 2012 21:54 teddyoojo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 21:37 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 10:15 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 10:10 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 10:04 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:48 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:29 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:21 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:15 s3rp wrote:
[quote]
You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 .... It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself. Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft. Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs. But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see. You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time. On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit. You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ. If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field. I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines. Well against Mutas you will def need Marines or a buttload of well upgraded Thors ^^ . Either you play full Mech with a at least somewhat decent Thor count or you will need Marines and Upgrades for them. And if he sees you completely abandon Marines there's nothing stopping the Zerg from just switching back to Mutas . Vikings even on way better upgrades are not an option . And don't get me started at how bad they are on the ground. I've just tested some random nonsense in the unit tester. Believe it or not, PDD is not all that powerful against mutas. BUT the upgraded auto-turret (building armor and high sec tracking) rapes mutas so hard, its not even funny. 125 HP, 3 armor, 7 range, 8 damage per shot and a 0,8 attack cooldown. Very, very powerful. What I tried, was to find a combination, that excluded marines and had 0/0 upgrades, but could rape 30 mutas which have 3/3 upgrades. And look at this: 1) only vikings with no upgrades, with 3 ravens for PDDs. Cost wise, thats 3000/3000 for zerg (plus the 3/3 upgrades) and only 3000/1950 for terran. Supplies were 60 vs 42, z and t resp. I assumed the ravens would have full energy, which is not totally realistic, but nor is the insane upgrade advantage for the zerg. The terran army consisting of 3 ravens and 18 vikings failed horribly. 19 mutas were left. Then I tried instead of the PDD, to employ auto-turrets (+2 building armor and +1 range upgraded). With 3 full energy ravens you can place down 12 (!) of these suckers. This time, only 16 mutas survived. 2) I tried to mix in thors, for better damage output. Again 30 mutas with 3/3 ups (= 60 supply) against a non upgraded terran army. 3 thors, 3 ravens and 12 vikings, making it a 48 supply army. Cost 3000/2100. Again, I tried PPD first. I placed down the PDDs, and attacked with the mutas spread out (magic box). 20 (!!!) mutas survived! Then I tried with auto-turrets: ALL mutas DEAD, and on the terran side 3 ravens, 4 vikings, 1 thor and 10 auto-turrets survived. And let me remind you, that the zerg army had 3/3 upgrades, was 60 supply and costed 3000/3000. The terran army had 0/0 upgrades, costed 3000/2100 and had 48 supply. Conclusion: 1) ultra hardcore mass muta can be dealt with entirely w/o marines in a straight up battle. 2) the most powerful raven spell is, oddly, the auto-turret. At least vs mass muta. I really didnt expect that. Next, I will experiment with BCs vs zerg. lollll and then the mutas fly to another point on the map and trust me, your auto turrets move there really slow
And where the fuck are you normal turrets and the rest of your resources? Zerg is paying for this army much more (50% more gas and 12 more supply), so stop QQing!
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On February 19 2012 21:30 SolidZeal wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 19:33 Big J wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 19 2012 19:24 Rassy wrote:Maybe not a perfect game from tlo.. but still if you see phoenix like this you wonder if +2 range is realy needed. Find it a bit weird update, feels like emergency fix when they also announced a new capital ship for hots to deal with mutas. that's been argued for a long time. You can destroy mutas with phoenix by early enough and even economy phoenix. That's why the upgrade is on the fleet bacon, making it only efficient for players that get caught by mutalisks but have the economy/bank to invest into stargates and all the tech for it against a player that gives them the time to do that --> low level players. For high level players, it will pretty much be a button that says: if you are heavily on stargate tech, you can make yourself immune to a techswitch that is already pretty dumb. I agree with you on the nature of phoenix beating mutas. I mean, that was a blind counter and even then the mutas were doing very well and would have held their own, but TLO miss-rallied hard and allowed 4-5 mutas to be picked off before joining the ball. That weakened the muta ball enough that the nix's were able to run them over. I disagree on the effect that this upgrade will have on pro games. The upgrade is so powerful in my opinion that once obtained it will effectively end harassment from mutas, lifting a huge weight from toss' shoulders. I think the best play is to keep the tech hidden if you can so that you can get 4 or more phoenix to chase down as many free muta kills as you can, while they run the hell away. If you don't mismicro or get snagged by infestors, phoenix will never lose to mutas post upgrade. If you are on 2 base and you don't have stargate, it will be a rough techpath. But on 3 base or more I think getting at least a token stargate will be really common post patch. I really like it, it makes stargate tech feel like it will have more potency. There already was a really awesome 2 base MS strat being played, this strengthens excellently. Maybe we'll see more 2 base fleet beacon. Also this may too bold to claim, but I take this patch as a really positive sign that Blizzard might be considering keeping the Carrier and ditching the Tempest. This upgrade does provide Protoss very decent late game air domination. Why have 2 strong AtA focus come from the same building? I mean, the tempest looks cool, but i feel like the community has been quite clear as to which capital ship they preferred. Maybe blizzard was like: "Let's just keep the carrier for HotS and then we can buff the phoenix for protoss now" This is of course probably just wishful thinking, but maybe. That might mean that they are planning some HotS changes for the Carrier. I'm hoping for a Tempest upgrade, Like the O.G. tempest that was a Dark Templar capital ship that shot bladed interceptors >  .
I dont think our opinions are really different at all on this topic.
I guess I was just a little extreme in my other post. ;-)
However I have to disagree on the Hots/Tempest part. I think protoss needs ways to combat corruptors better to get a form of airbuild. I think this is one of the main dynamics blizzard wants to introduce for hots PvZ. Tempest to make airbuilds viable, hydraspeed (and possible balancechanges)+carrier removal to make hydras strong vs such builds and vipers to beat colossi without air superiority for zerg.
Also they said that "right now the carrier is out", which could be a reference to: "we have to look whether AtA + AtG superiority capital ships together are too good, but we plan to have both in LotV or maybe even in a later stage of HotS".
Right now Protoss can't win the airbattle before mass voidray maxed scenarios and I don't see a protoss being able to get there more easily through this upgrade/the nonexistent carrier role will stay nonexistent in those.
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You quite undersold TLOs poor play with that 'not perfect', lol. To me it looked like what should've been a blind counter was a lackluster response that worked only by TLOs carelessness.
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On February 19 2012 21:59 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 10:23 Origine wrote:On February 19 2012 10:10 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 10:04 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:48 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:29 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:21 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:15 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:04 Tulkas25 wrote:
[quote]
But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed.
Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least. You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 .... It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself. Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft. Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs. But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see. You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time. On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit. You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ. If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field. I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines. Again, you're wrong from the beginning to the end. Marines DONT lose their value, u fail to realize that once they are upgraded with shield/stim/3-3 + healed by medivac, they easily could be considered tier 2 or even 2.5, imagine if you micro them a tiny bit.. Marines do the same amount of damage as the maurader, but with higher fire rate + you get them from reactor aka 2 by 2 aka u reinforce your army much faster than getting marauders/ghosts only. This is all irrelevant in the late game. Against BL/Inf you dont want a high DPS army, that can be obliterated with 2 fungals. Because of no way to resupply as fast as the zerg (protoss have the same problem), what you want is an army that can endure a lot of punishment. And for that, you mus sacrifice DPS. Protoss are doing the same thing, by prioritizing blink stalkers vs HTs. Stalkers have the worst DPS per cost in the entire game, but thanks to blink they have crazy staying power. HTs have sick DPS, but "thanks" to their low HP and slow movement speed have laughable staying power. Look at it this way: if you make marines in the late game, you either manage to pull off a miracle by EMPing all infestors, then you just stim you marines, move them under the BLs, rape the shit out of them, and type "/dance". OR (and this is a far more realistic scenario), you EMP/snipe like 50% of the infestors, they fungal your marine clump, and you lose horribly. Where the marauder comes in, is the part with the sick AoE zergs have in the late game. Per cost, you do get more HP and armor, which basically results in a unit, that is harder to lose by making a small mistake (macroing and not looking at the army for 1 sec...). The thing is, when casting spells, it is exponentially harder to pull of, the longer it takes to take effect. 2 chain fungals timed perfectly (to kill marines) are much easier, than 3 for the marauders. Marauders are also more efficient when fighting against banelings, roaches and ultras. They essentially take care of the ground, when they are upgraded, and have a bit help from siege tanks. This leaves you worrying only about the air. And for that, check my previous posting.
The problem with your argument is that it's very weak when considering Zerg tech switches as something very common in lategame TvZ.
When the terran needs around 50 supply to combat 60 supply of the Zerg in an air fight effectively, then 140 supply of air units would take 120 supply of air units from the terran. If you then manage to kill of the air forces and the zerg tech switches back into pure ground I don't see a way for your strategy to keep up with that production at all. That's why the ghost was so important in the past. It was, at least in my opinion, the only viable way to deal with a well executed zerg tech switch. If you have so much supply in anti-air, at what point will you get the units out to counter the pure ground remax? It's a question that nobody, so far, was able to answer to my satisfaction.
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yeah that's why raven is kinda weird.
PDD is costing energy to reducing ranged damage. so it's basically guardian shield except it has a much shorter duration. it's superior to guardian shield in smaller battles, and you can use PDD as a sponge to move your units forward etc... but 100 energy... is it really going to effectively prevent more damage than the alternative 75 energy dps spell (1.33 x EMP's, fungals or storms)?
auto-turret spam is rediculously good unless there are high armoured units around. zealots, broodlords, ultras, roach etc blast through auto-turrets for fun.
seeker missile is just awful unless you're against terran imo... because TvT air battle is so difficult to win if you're behind in vikings, you need seeker missiles to get some control back (and obviously auto-turrets will just die instantly to tanks).
personally i believe that if seeker missile cost 75 energy then raven would be a great unit in all matchups, but as it stands it's just gimmick crap except for TvT.
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On February 19 2012 22:04 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 21:54 teddyoojo wrote:On February 19 2012 21:37 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 10:15 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 10:10 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 10:04 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:48 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:29 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:21 Tulkas25 wrote:
[quote]
It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself. Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft. Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs. But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see. You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time. On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit. You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ. If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field. I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines. Well against Mutas you will def need Marines or a buttload of well upgraded Thors ^^ . Either you play full Mech with a at least somewhat decent Thor count or you will need Marines and Upgrades for them. And if he sees you completely abandon Marines there's nothing stopping the Zerg from just switching back to Mutas . Vikings even on way better upgrades are not an option . And don't get me started at how bad they are on the ground. I've just tested some random nonsense in the unit tester. Believe it or not, PDD is not all that powerful against mutas. BUT the upgraded auto-turret (building armor and high sec tracking) rapes mutas so hard, its not even funny. 125 HP, 3 armor, 7 range, 8 damage per shot and a 0,8 attack cooldown. Very, very powerful. What I tried, was to find a combination, that excluded marines and had 0/0 upgrades, but could rape 30 mutas which have 3/3 upgrades. And look at this: 1) only vikings with no upgrades, with 3 ravens for PDDs. Cost wise, thats 3000/3000 for zerg (plus the 3/3 upgrades) and only 3000/1950 for terran. Supplies were 60 vs 42, z and t resp. I assumed the ravens would have full energy, which is not totally realistic, but nor is the insane upgrade advantage for the zerg. The terran army consisting of 3 ravens and 18 vikings failed horribly. 19 mutas were left. Then I tried instead of the PDD, to employ auto-turrets (+2 building armor and +1 range upgraded). With 3 full energy ravens you can place down 12 (!) of these suckers. This time, only 16 mutas survived. 2) I tried to mix in thors, for better damage output. Again 30 mutas with 3/3 ups (= 60 supply) against a non upgraded terran army. 3 thors, 3 ravens and 12 vikings, making it a 48 supply army. Cost 3000/2100. Again, I tried PPD first. I placed down the PDDs, and attacked with the mutas spread out (magic box). 20 (!!!) mutas survived! Then I tried with auto-turrets: ALL mutas DEAD, and on the terran side 3 ravens, 4 vikings, 1 thor and 10 auto-turrets survived. And let me remind you, that the zerg army had 3/3 upgrades, was 60 supply and costed 3000/3000. The terran army had 0/0 upgrades, costed 3000/2100 and had 48 supply. Conclusion: 1) ultra hardcore mass muta can be dealt with entirely w/o marines in a straight up battle. 2) the most powerful raven spell is, oddly, the auto-turret. At least vs mass muta. I really didnt expect that. Next, I will experiment with BCs vs zerg. lollll and then the mutas fly to another point on the map and trust me, your auto turrets move there really slow And where the fuck are you normal turrets and the rest of your resources? Zerg is paying for this army much more (50% more gas and 12 more supply), so stop QQing!
talking more bullshit doesnt make your previous bullshit right
you will never be able to counter mass muta effeciently without marines. get over it.
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On February 19 2012 22:12 teddyoojo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 22:04 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 21:54 teddyoojo wrote:On February 19 2012 21:37 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 10:15 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 10:10 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 10:04 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:48 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:29 PureBalls wrote:
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Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft.
Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs.
But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see. You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time. On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit. You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ. If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field. I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines. Well against Mutas you will def need Marines or a buttload of well upgraded Thors ^^ . Either you play full Mech with a at least somewhat decent Thor count or you will need Marines and Upgrades for them. And if he sees you completely abandon Marines there's nothing stopping the Zerg from just switching back to Mutas . Vikings even on way better upgrades are not an option . And don't get me started at how bad they are on the ground. I've just tested some random nonsense in the unit tester. Believe it or not, PDD is not all that powerful against mutas. BUT the upgraded auto-turret (building armor and high sec tracking) rapes mutas so hard, its not even funny. 125 HP, 3 armor, 7 range, 8 damage per shot and a 0,8 attack cooldown. Very, very powerful. What I tried, was to find a combination, that excluded marines and had 0/0 upgrades, but could rape 30 mutas which have 3/3 upgrades. And look at this: 1) only vikings with no upgrades, with 3 ravens for PDDs. Cost wise, thats 3000/3000 for zerg (plus the 3/3 upgrades) and only 3000/1950 for terran. Supplies were 60 vs 42, z and t resp. I assumed the ravens would have full energy, which is not totally realistic, but nor is the insane upgrade advantage for the zerg. The terran army consisting of 3 ravens and 18 vikings failed horribly. 19 mutas were left. Then I tried instead of the PDD, to employ auto-turrets (+2 building armor and +1 range upgraded). With 3 full energy ravens you can place down 12 (!) of these suckers. This time, only 16 mutas survived. 2) I tried to mix in thors, for better damage output. Again 30 mutas with 3/3 ups (= 60 supply) against a non upgraded terran army. 3 thors, 3 ravens and 12 vikings, making it a 48 supply army. Cost 3000/2100. Again, I tried PPD first. I placed down the PDDs, and attacked with the mutas spread out (magic box). 20 (!!!) mutas survived! Then I tried with auto-turrets: ALL mutas DEAD, and on the terran side 3 ravens, 4 vikings, 1 thor and 10 auto-turrets survived. And let me remind you, that the zerg army had 3/3 upgrades, was 60 supply and costed 3000/3000. The terran army had 0/0 upgrades, costed 3000/2100 and had 48 supply. Conclusion: 1) ultra hardcore mass muta can be dealt with entirely w/o marines in a straight up battle. 2) the most powerful raven spell is, oddly, the auto-turret. At least vs mass muta. I really didnt expect that. Next, I will experiment with BCs vs zerg. lollll and then the mutas fly to another point on the map and trust me, your auto turrets move there really slow And where the fuck are you normal turrets and the rest of your resources? Zerg is paying for this army much more (50% more gas and 12 more supply), so stop QQing! talking more bullshit doesnt make your previous bullshit right you will never be able to counter mass muta effeciently without marines. get over it.
actually i think you need more than mass marines to deal with mass mutas... you can't push out against mass muta unless you have 2-3 thors otherwise you get sandwiched by mass speedlings/banes and muta kill all of your tanks. it's suicide to push vs mass muta unless you have thors in your composition.
the only thing you can do with marines vs mass muta is split them into 2-3 groups and defend your bases. which is allowing zerg to take an unstoppable eco lead.
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On February 19 2012 22:17 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 22:12 teddyoojo wrote:On February 19 2012 22:04 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 21:54 teddyoojo wrote:On February 19 2012 21:37 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 10:15 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 10:10 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 10:04 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:48 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Tulkas25 wrote:
[quote]
You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here
Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time. On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit. You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ. If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field. I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines. Well against Mutas you will def need Marines or a buttload of well upgraded Thors ^^ . Either you play full Mech with a at least somewhat decent Thor count or you will need Marines and Upgrades for them. And if he sees you completely abandon Marines there's nothing stopping the Zerg from just switching back to Mutas . Vikings even on way better upgrades are not an option . And don't get me started at how bad they are on the ground. I've just tested some random nonsense in the unit tester. Believe it or not, PDD is not all that powerful against mutas. BUT the upgraded auto-turret (building armor and high sec tracking) rapes mutas so hard, its not even funny. 125 HP, 3 armor, 7 range, 8 damage per shot and a 0,8 attack cooldown. Very, very powerful. What I tried, was to find a combination, that excluded marines and had 0/0 upgrades, but could rape 30 mutas which have 3/3 upgrades. And look at this: 1) only vikings with no upgrades, with 3 ravens for PDDs. Cost wise, thats 3000/3000 for zerg (plus the 3/3 upgrades) and only 3000/1950 for terran. Supplies were 60 vs 42, z and t resp. I assumed the ravens would have full energy, which is not totally realistic, but nor is the insane upgrade advantage for the zerg. The terran army consisting of 3 ravens and 18 vikings failed horribly. 19 mutas were left. Then I tried instead of the PDD, to employ auto-turrets (+2 building armor and +1 range upgraded). With 3 full energy ravens you can place down 12 (!) of these suckers. This time, only 16 mutas survived. 2) I tried to mix in thors, for better damage output. Again 30 mutas with 3/3 ups (= 60 supply) against a non upgraded terran army. 3 thors, 3 ravens and 12 vikings, making it a 48 supply army. Cost 3000/2100. Again, I tried PPD first. I placed down the PDDs, and attacked with the mutas spread out (magic box). 20 (!!!) mutas survived! Then I tried with auto-turrets: ALL mutas DEAD, and on the terran side 3 ravens, 4 vikings, 1 thor and 10 auto-turrets survived. And let me remind you, that the zerg army had 3/3 upgrades, was 60 supply and costed 3000/3000. The terran army had 0/0 upgrades, costed 3000/2100 and had 48 supply. Conclusion: 1) ultra hardcore mass muta can be dealt with entirely w/o marines in a straight up battle. 2) the most powerful raven spell is, oddly, the auto-turret. At least vs mass muta. I really didnt expect that. Next, I will experiment with BCs vs zerg. lollll and then the mutas fly to another point on the map and trust me, your auto turrets move there really slow And where the fuck are you normal turrets and the rest of your resources? Zerg is paying for this army much more (50% more gas and 12 more supply), so stop QQing! talking more bullshit doesnt make your previous bullshit right you will never be able to counter mass muta effeciently without marines. get over it. actually i think you need more than mass marines to deal with mass mutas... you can't push out against mass muta unless you have 2-3 thors otherwise you get sandwiched by mass speedlings/banes and muta kill all of your tanks. it's suicide to push vs mass muta unless you have thors in your composition. the only thing you can do with marines vs mass muta is split them into 2-3 groups and defend your bases. which is allowing zerg to take an unstoppable eco lead.
i never said anything against that.. try to read my post again
all i said is you need marines.
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personally i believe that if seeker missile cost 75 energy then raven would be a great unit in all matchups, but as it stands it's just gimmick crap except for TvT.
I think the 125 were intentionally that one raven cant HSM twice. Other than fungal and Storm, HSM dmg does stack. But I agree. The Raven needs cheaper abilities.
Get rid of HSM and give them a storm like ability for 75 energy
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On February 19 2012 23:13 Charon1979 wrote:Show nested quote +personally i believe that if seeker missile cost 75 energy then raven would be a great unit in all matchups, but as it stands it's just gimmick crap except for TvT. I think the 125 were intentionally that one raven cant HSM twice. Other than fungal and Storm, HSM dmg does stack. But I agree. The Raven needs cheaper abilities. Get rid of HSM and give them a storm like ability for 75 energy
The stacking though doesn't really make a difference since they reduced the range of Splash somewhere in Beta. The radius of splash is not very big
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On February 19 2012 21:37 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 10:15 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 10:10 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 10:04 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:48 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:29 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:21 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:15 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:04 Tulkas25 wrote:
[quote]
But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed.
Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least. You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 .... It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself. Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft. Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs. But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see. You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time. On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit. You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ. If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field. I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines. Well against Mutas you will def need Marines or a buttload of well upgraded Thors ^^ . Either you play full Mech with a at least somewhat decent Thor count or you will need Marines and Upgrades for them. And if he sees you completely abandon Marines there's nothing stopping the Zerg from just switching back to Mutas . Vikings even on way better upgrades are not an option . And don't get me started at how bad they are on the ground. I've just tested some random nonsense in the unit tester. Believe it or not, PDD is not all that powerful against mutas. BUT the upgraded auto-turret (building armor and high sec tracking) rapes mutas so hard, its not even funny. 125 HP, 3 armor, 7 range, 8 damage per shot and a 0,8 attack cooldown. Very, very powerful. What I tried, was to find a combination, that excluded marines and had 0/0 upgrades, but could rape 30 mutas which have 3/3 upgrades. And look at this: 1) only vikings with no upgrades, with 3 ravens for PDDs. Cost wise, thats 3000/3000 for zerg (plus the 3/3 upgrades) and only 3000/1950 for terran. Supplies were 60 vs 42, z and t resp. I assumed the ravens would have full energy, which is not totally realistic, but nor is the insane upgrade advantage for the zerg. The terran army consisting of 3 ravens and 18 vikings failed horribly. 19 mutas were left. Then I tried instead of the PDD, to employ auto-turrets (+2 building armor and +1 range upgraded). With 3 full energy ravens you can place down 12 (!) of these suckers. This time, only 16 mutas survived. 2) I tried to mix in thors, for better damage output. Again 30 mutas with 3/3 ups (= 60 supply) against a non upgraded terran army. 3 thors, 3 ravens and 12 vikings, making it a 48 supply army. Cost 3000/2100. Again, I tried PPD first. I placed down the PDDs, and attacked with the mutas spread out (magic box). 20 (!!!) mutas survived! Then I tried with auto-turrets: ALL mutas DEAD, and on the terran side 3 ravens, 4 vikings, 1 thor and 10 auto-turrets survived. And let me remind you, that the zerg army had 3/3 upgrades, was 60 supply and costed 3000/3000. The terran army had 0/0 upgrades, costed 3000/2100 and had 48 supply. Conclusion: 1) ultra hardcore mass muta can be dealt with entirely w/o marines in a straight up battle. 2) the most powerful raven spell is, oddly, the auto-turret. At least vs mass muta. I really didnt expect that. Next, I will experiment with BCs vs zerg.
Just doing work in the unit tester does not work , try it in real game situations and you will see what the problems are with this. If the opponent has 30 Mutas he will never engage you unless he catches you in a bad spot by backstabbing you all the time . And it's pretty hard to stop massive mutas harassment without Marines while also taking more then 3 bases and keeping the Zerg from taking the whole freaking Map.
I'm pretty certain for example BC's would do very well against Mutas in the Units Tester. Doesn't mean it would in real game situation since you will not get that same situation in the game.
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fix fucking vortex already this is bonkers that they are releasing another patch and they still have no adressed it.... jesus
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Has blizzard said when they're releasing this patch?
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On February 20 2012 00:22 vileChAnCe wrote:
fix fucking vortex already this is bonkers that they are releasing another patch and they still have no adressed it.... jesus
Pretty sure Zerg doesn't need assistance in PvZ right now.
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On February 20 2012 00:22 vileChAnCe wrote:
fix fucking vortex already this is bonkers that they are releasing another patch and they still have no adressed it.... jesus
What about we stop patching the only things that make zerg lategame not an autowin against every race, heh ?
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On February 20 2012 00:22 vileChAnCe wrote:
fix fucking vortex already this is bonkers that they are releasing another patch and they still have no adressed it.... jesus
There already is a fix. Its called spreading.
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On February 20 2012 00:34 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 00:22 vileChAnCe wrote:
fix fucking vortex already this is bonkers that they are releasing another patch and they still have no adressed it.... jesus There already is a fix. Its called spreading.
Indeed, and apparently the fix also applies for vikings, making them a viable counter for broodlords
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On February 20 2012 00:57 Kira__ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 00:34 PureBalls wrote:On February 20 2012 00:22 vileChAnCe wrote:
fix fucking vortex already this is bonkers that they are releasing another patch and they still have no adressed it.... jesus There already is a fix. Its called spreading. Indeed, and apparently the fix also applies for vikings, making them a viable counter for broodlords
Whether vikings alone are enough, I dont know. I'm not a terran player. But spreading in general goes a long way.
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On February 20 2012 00:57 Kira__ wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 00:34 PureBalls wrote:On February 20 2012 00:22 vileChAnCe wrote:
fix fucking vortex already this is bonkers that they are releasing another patch and they still have no adressed it.... jesus There already is a fix. Its called spreading. Indeed, and apparently the fix also applies for vikings, making them a viable counter for broodlords
Even spread out they're not the solution to Broodlords without massive support.
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EPT
