On February 19 2012 08:52 PureBalls wrote: [quote]
No! Any protoss that fails that hard, and allows his mothership to be NP'ed should get raped. And I'm saying this as a toss player
And I am aware of the BL/Inf synergy. But I do believe that terrans will, just as protoss have done, learn to deal with it.
But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed.
Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least.
You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 ....
It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself.
Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft.
Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs.
But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see.
You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here
Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time.
On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit.
You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ.
If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field.
I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines.
Again, you're wrong from the beginning to the end. Marines DONT lose their value, u fail to realize that once they are upgraded with shield/stim/3-3 + healed by medivac, they easily could be considered tier 2 or even 2.5, imagine if you micro them a tiny bit.. Marines do the same amount of damage as the maurader, but with higher fire rate + you get them from reactor aka 2 by 2 aka u reinforce your army much faster than getting marauders/ghosts only. Then, you dont "land" vikings cauz they suck hardcore vs 3 armored ground units and they die horribly fast against +3 attack ground units, terrans dont upgrade air attack nor air armor cauz they're using their armory for +1/+2 mech attack. Finally. You're talking about surface area. Maps tend to be bigger and bigger, with wider center for big battles. If you clump up all your "somewhat" big units, guess what, fungals happen. If you split your units, guess what, more surface area for lings. Just watch TLO vs MKP from some recent cw. Im begging you to PLEASE stop bsing about a topic you have no clue at.
Marines do lose a lot of their value in the later game. Yes they have a lot of DPS, but they're also very vulnerable to anything doing splash. Once Infestors arrive massive numbers of marines can die very quickley and it doesn't matter how upgraded they are. They're still good units but their value DOES go down. There's nothing wrong with that, Tier 1 units should lose some value as the game progresses, but to argue they do not lose any of their value is silly.
But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed.
Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least.
You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 ....
It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself.
Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft.
Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs.
But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see.
You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here
Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time.
On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit.
You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ.
If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field.
I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines.
Again, you're wrong from the beginning to the end. Marines DONT lose their value, u fail to realize that once they are upgraded with shield/stim/3-3 + healed by medivac, they easily could be considered tier 2 or even 2.5, imagine if you micro them a tiny bit.. Marines do the same amount of damage as the maurader, but with higher fire rate + you get them from reactor aka 2 by 2 aka u reinforce your army much faster than getting marauders/ghosts only. Then, you dont "land" vikings cauz they suck hardcore vs 3 armored ground units and they die horribly fast against +3 attack ground units, terrans dont upgrade air attack nor air armor cauz they're using their armory for +1/+2 mech attack. Finally. You're talking about surface area. Maps tend to be bigger and bigger, with wider center for big battles. If you clump up all your "somewhat" big units, guess what, fungals happen. If you split your units, guess what, more surface area for lings. Just watch TLO vs MKP from some recent cw. Im begging you to PLEASE stop bsing about a topic you have no clue at.
Marines do lose a lot of their value in the later game. Yes they have a lot of DPS, but they're also very vulnerable to anything doing splash. Once Infestors arrive massive numbers of marines can die very quickley and it doesn't matter how upgraded they are. They're still good units but their value DOES go down. There's nothing wrong with that, Tier 1 units should lose some value as the game progresses, but to argue they do not lose any of their value is silly.
Are you serious?Marines with proper support like medivacs with proper upgrades don't lose their values.However,marines themselves do lose value in the later stage of the game without support.BUT marines are always accompanied by other units to complement them such as siege tanks,medivacs,etc in the late game.
You think this patch NERFs Ghosts? Wait for HOTS and you will see.Ghost wont cloak anymore using their energy.It will be a "cooldown" cast for 30s and must wait again...Same as Infestors and DTs...
On February 19 2012 18:04 Dvriel wrote: You think this patch NERFs Ghosts? Wait for HOTS and you will see.Ghost wont cloak anymore using their energy.It will be a "cooldown" cast for 30s and must wait again...Same as Infestors and DTs...
On February 19 2012 18:04 Dvriel wrote: You think this patch NERFs Ghosts? Wait for HOTS and you will see.Ghost wont cloak anymore using their energy.It will be a "cooldown" cast for 30s and must wait again...Same as Infestors and DTs...
You're wrong there, its set energy cost for a set amount of time. Absolutely irrelevant to this thread anyway.
You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 ....
It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself.
Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft.
Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs.
But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see.
You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here
Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time.
On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit.
You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ.
If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field.
I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines.
Again, you're wrong from the beginning to the end. Marines DONT lose their value, u fail to realize that once they are upgraded with shield/stim/3-3 + healed by medivac, they easily could be considered tier 2 or even 2.5, imagine if you micro them a tiny bit.. Marines do the same amount of damage as the maurader, but with higher fire rate + you get them from reactor aka 2 by 2 aka u reinforce your army much faster than getting marauders/ghosts only. Then, you dont "land" vikings cauz they suck hardcore vs 3 armored ground units and they die horribly fast against +3 attack ground units, terrans dont upgrade air attack nor air armor cauz they're using their armory for +1/+2 mech attack. Finally. You're talking about surface area. Maps tend to be bigger and bigger, with wider center for big battles. If you clump up all your "somewhat" big units, guess what, fungals happen. If you split your units, guess what, more surface area for lings. Just watch TLO vs MKP from some recent cw. Im begging you to PLEASE stop bsing about a topic you have no clue at.
Marines do lose a lot of their value in the later game. Yes they have a lot of DPS, but they're also very vulnerable to anything doing splash. Once Infestors arrive massive numbers of marines can die very quickley and it doesn't matter how upgraded they are. They're still good units but their value DOES go down. There's nothing wrong with that, Tier 1 units should lose some value as the game progresses, but to argue they do not lose any of their value is silly.
Are you serious?Marines with proper support like medivacs with proper upgrades don't lose their values.However,marines themselves do lose value in the later stage of the game without support.BUT marines are always accompanied by other units to complement them such as siege tanks,medivacs,etc in the late game.
Marines pretty much melt instantly in every TvP lategame to either mass collossi or storms. Imo marines are completely useless in lategame TvP. In TvZ they are still good but mass infestor/broodlord owns marines too. To argue that marines are a good lategame unit is ridiculous.
Maybe not a perfect game from tlo.. but still if you see phoenix like this you wonder if +2 range is realy needed. Find it a bit weird update, feels like emergency fix when they also announced a new capital ship for hots to deal with mutas.
It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself.
Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft.
Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs.
But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see.
You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here
Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time.
On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit.
You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ.
If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field.
I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines.
Again, you're wrong from the beginning to the end. Marines DONT lose their value, u fail to realize that once they are upgraded with shield/stim/3-3 + healed by medivac, they easily could be considered tier 2 or even 2.5, imagine if you micro them a tiny bit.. Marines do the same amount of damage as the maurader, but with higher fire rate + you get them from reactor aka 2 by 2 aka u reinforce your army much faster than getting marauders/ghosts only. Then, you dont "land" vikings cauz they suck hardcore vs 3 armored ground units and they die horribly fast against +3 attack ground units, terrans dont upgrade air attack nor air armor cauz they're using their armory for +1/+2 mech attack. Finally. You're talking about surface area. Maps tend to be bigger and bigger, with wider center for big battles. If you clump up all your "somewhat" big units, guess what, fungals happen. If you split your units, guess what, more surface area for lings. Just watch TLO vs MKP from some recent cw. Im begging you to PLEASE stop bsing about a topic you have no clue at.
Marines do lose a lot of their value in the later game. Yes they have a lot of DPS, but they're also very vulnerable to anything doing splash. Once Infestors arrive massive numbers of marines can die very quickley and it doesn't matter how upgraded they are. They're still good units but their value DOES go down. There's nothing wrong with that, Tier 1 units should lose some value as the game progresses, but to argue they do not lose any of their value is silly.
Are you serious?Marines with proper support like medivacs with proper upgrades don't lose their values.However,marines themselves do lose value in the later stage of the game without support.BUT marines are always accompanied by other units to complement them such as siege tanks,medivacs,etc in the late game.
Marines pretty much melt instantly in every TvP lategame to either mass collossi or storms. Imo marines are completely useless in lategame TvP. In TvZ they are still good but mass infestor/broodlord owns marines too. To argue that marines are a good lategame unit is ridiculous.
exactly, their combat worth is pretty much nonexistent once the BL and Infestor numbers get really high. And now compare that to the zerg units that are "good" vs ghosts - zerglings, banelings, roaches - in those lategame scenarios. Well, now add that *mass* ghosts beats mass ling and mass roaches pretty easily due to cloak+sniping the overseers, or just 200energy snipe allowing a ghost to kill 2roaches with snipe, before the attack move combat even starts. So it pretty much comes down to banelings, with the problem, that those are so costly against nonlight units, that you will never get costefficient against spread out ghosts that are only somewhat supported by tanks.
The thing that is *a little* broken is not the small ghost usage we usually see, it's the tank/marine/medivac --> tank/marine/medivac/ghost --> tank/ghost transition that we see a few times in stalemate scenarios.
and before I get flamed down to hell for this post: I'm absolutly against the proposed nerf and blizzard should rather try something along the lines: "make ghosts more counterable***" or a smaller nerf.
*** bunch of ideas for that: -) make them light, so that banelings are more efficient when killing them -) as Zergs have tried every unit against those compositions (and Nydus is not a Unit. It can't even combat the ghost; and spinecrawlers don't get close to ghosts), why not give a zerg unit a small specific buff: +X damage vs psyonic/immune to targeted abilities upgrade for hydralisks would sound cool... and if it doesn't work due to tanks and (+vs light) from ghosts, remove it and try something new -) give snipe a little more animation time and then make snipe miss or do half the damage if the targeted unit changed its movement in between the start of the animation and the projectile hit; making stutterstepping a viable damagereducing antisnipe micro -) give queens the ability to queue a healing spell (only for a short time like 3sec) before the damage is being done to the unit. Counterhealing sounds like a nice way to micro against snipe, but noone can possibly know which unit is being sniped next and then heal it in between the few clicks it takes the ghosts to kill it. -) make a ghosts unable to snipe for a very short amount of time (like the amount of time in between two crackling hits or less), if it gets hit by a unit, so you can reduce combatworth of snipe actively.
Maybe not a perfect game from tlo.. but still if you see phoenix like this you wonder if +2 range is realy needed. Find it a bit weird update, feels like emergency fix when they also announced a new capital ship for hots to deal with mutas.
that's been argued for a long time. You can destroy mutas with phoenix by early enough and even economy phoenix. That's why the upgrade is on the fleet bacon, making it only efficient for players that get caught by mutalisks but have the economy/bank to invest into stargates and all the tech for it against a player that gives them the time to do that --> low level players. For high level players, it will pretty much be a button that says: if you are heavily on stargate tech, you can make yourself immune to a techswitch that is already pretty dumb.
Marines pretty much melt instantly in every TvP lategame to either mass collossi or storms. Imo marines are completely useless in lategame TvP. In TvZ they are still good but mass infestor/broodlord owns marines too. To argue that marines are a good lategame unit is ridiculous.
I'm pretty sure marines beat broodlords cost for cost. But none of that has anything to do with the ghost.
Marines pretty much melt instantly in every TvP lategame to either mass collossi or storms. Imo marines are completely useless in lategame TvP. In TvZ they are still good but mass infestor/broodlord owns marines too. To argue that marines are a good lategame unit is ridiculous.
I'm pretty sure marines beat broodlords cost for cost. But none of that has anything to do with the ghost.
depends on the numbers. broods become close to immune to marines in bigger numbers, while they suck hardcore against them in smaller ones. also he said BL/Infestor
Marines pretty much melt instantly in every TvP lategame to either mass collossi or storms. Imo marines are completely useless in lategame TvP. In TvZ they are still good but mass infestor/broodlord owns marines too. To argue that marines are a good lategame unit is ridiculous.
I'm pretty sure marines beat broodlords cost for cost. But none of that has anything to do with the ghost.
Yeah sure, if the Zerg only builds 3 broodlords and no infestors lategame then marines are freaking awesome. But against +10 broodlords and a few infestors it's actually impossible to even get in range of the broodlords, no matter how many marines you build. Marines will never be a good lategame unit in no matchup, not in TvT, not in TvZ and not in TvP. That's why everyone transitions away from mass marine in the lategame, it's simply not cost effective, in no matchup.
Lategame TvT, you want to have more tanks and less marines and eventually transition into air. Lategame TvP, you want to add more and more marauders and ghosts and, preferably make almost no marines at all. Lategame TvZ, you ideally want a tank, ghosts + maybe thor/raven/viking army and no marines either really, or at least not alot of marines
To me, it's like David Kim rolled as Zerg against a Terran and got pwned by snipe. This resulted in David Kim raging and nerfing snipe to the shit-house.
He must of raged pretty hard considering there is no PTR, he must really hate Terran and wants to see them get screwed over this MLG me thinks.
Maybe not a perfect game from tlo.. but still if you see phoenix like this you wonder if +2 range is realy needed. Find it a bit weird update, feels like emergency fix when they also announced a new capital ship for hots to deal with mutas.
that's been argued for a long time. You can destroy mutas with phoenix by early enough and even economy phoenix. That's why the upgrade is on the fleet bacon, making it only efficient for players that get caught by mutalisks but have the economy/bank to invest into stargates and all the tech for it against a player that gives them the time to do that --> low level players. For high level players, it will pretty much be a button that says: if you are heavily on stargate tech, you can make yourself immune to a techswitch that is already pretty dumb.
I agree with you on the nature of phoenix beating mutas. I mean, that was a blind counter and even then the mutas were doing well and would have held their own, but TLO miss-rallied hard and allowed 4-5 mutas to be picked off before joining the ball. That weakened the muta ball enough that the nix's were able to run them over.
I disagree on the effect that this upgrade will have on pro games. The upgrade is so powerful in my opinion that once obtained it will effectively end harassment from mutas, lifting a huge weight from toss' shoulders. I think the best play is to keep the tech hidden if you can so that you can get 4 or more phoenix to chase down as many free muta kills as you can, while they run the hell away. If you don't mismicro or get snagged by infestors, phoenix will never lose to mutas post upgrade. If you are on 2 base and you don't have stargate, it will be a rough techpath. But on 3 base or more I think getting at least a token stargate will be really common post patch. I really like it, it makes stargate tech feel like it will have more potency. There already was a really awesome 2 base MS strat being played, this strengthens excellently. Maybe we'll see more 2 base fleet beacon.
Also this may too bold to claim, but I take this patch as a really positive sign that Blizzard might be considering keeping the Carrier and ditching the Tempest. This upgrade does provide Protoss very decent late game air domination. Why have 2 strong AtA focus come from the same building? I mean, the tempest looks cool, but i feel like the community has been quite clear as to which capital ship they preferred.
Maybe blizzard was like: "Let's just keep the carrier for HotS and then we can buff the phoenix for protoss now" This is of course probably just wishful thinking, but maybe. That might mean that they are planning some HotS changes for the Carrier. I'm hoping for a Tempest upgrade, Like the O.G. tempest that was a Dark Templar capital ship that shot bladed interceptors
Marines pretty much melt instantly in every TvP lategame to either mass collossi or storms. Imo marines are completely useless in lategame TvP. In TvZ they are still good but mass infestor/broodlord owns marines too. To argue that marines are a good lategame unit is ridiculous.
I'm pretty sure marines beat broodlords cost for cost. But none of that has anything to do with the ghost.
blabla Lategame TvT, you want to have more tanks and less marines and eventually transition into air. Lategame TvP, you want to add more and more marauders and ghosts and, preferably make almost no marines at all. Lategame TvZ, you ideally want a tank, ghosts + maybe thor/raven/viking army and no marines either really, or at least not alot of marines
I highly disagree with you. TvT. Why would you upgrade 3-3 for marines if u make less of them? You still make tons of them as well as tanks/medivacs/viks, assuming the game is a standard Marine/Tank vs Marine/Tank. Only tanks vs Marines/tanks rly suck cauz you have no meatshield. Having less marines = less drops/less mobility. TvP. In late game, you're supposed to have what counters AoE units from Protoss, aka Vikings and Ghosts. If you manage to snipe the obs and are abble to shut down templars/archons and colossi, your marines still live and do their job.
On February 19 2012 20:45 fiveohfive wrote: To me, it's like David Kim rolled as Zerg against a Terran and got pwned by snipe. This resulted in David Kim raging and nerfing snipe to the shit-house.
He must of raged pretty hard considering there is no PTR, he must really hate Terran and wants to see them get screwed over this MLG me thinks.
Meh just a simplitist way to see the balance guys. David Kim received a lot of critisim for being terran favored until this patch.<<
On February 19 2012 08:52 PureBalls wrote: [quote]
No! Any protoss that fails that hard, and allows his mothership to be NP'ed should get raped. And I'm saying this as a toss player
And I am aware of the BL/Inf synergy. But I do believe that terrans will, just as protoss have done, learn to deal with it.
But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed.
Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least.
You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 ....
It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself.
Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft.
Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs.
But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see.
You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here
Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time.
On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit.
You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ.
If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field.
I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines.
Well against Mutas you will def need Marines or a buttload of well upgraded Thors ^^ . Either you play full Mech with a at least somewhat decent Thor count or you will need Marines and Upgrades for them. And if he sees you completely abandon Marines there's nothing stopping the Zerg from just switching back to Mutas . Vikings even on way better upgrades are not an option . And don't get me started at how bad they are on the ground.
I've just tested some random nonsense in the unit tester.
Believe it or not, PDD is not all that powerful against mutas. BUT the upgraded auto-turret (building armor and high sec tracking) rapes mutas so hard, its not even funny. 125 HP, 3 armor, 7 range, 8 damage per shot and a 0,8 attack cooldown. Very, very powerful.
What I tried, was to find a combination, that excluded marines and had 0/0 upgrades, but could rape 30 mutas which have 3/3 upgrades. And look at this:
1) only vikings with no upgrades, with 3 ravens for PDDs. Cost wise, thats 3000/3000 for zerg (plus the 3/3 upgrades) and only 3000/1950 for terran. Supplies were 60 vs 42, z and t resp. I assumed the ravens would have full energy, which is not totally realistic, but nor is the insane upgrade advantage for the zerg. The terran army consisting of 3 ravens and 18 vikings failed horribly. 19 mutas were left.
Then I tried instead of the PDD, to employ auto-turrets (+2 building armor and +1 range upgraded). With 3 full energy ravens you can place down 12 (!) of these suckers. This time, only 16 mutas survived.
2) I tried to mix in thors, for better damage output. Again 30 mutas with 3/3 ups (= 60 supply) against a non upgraded terran army. 3 thors, 3 ravens and 12 vikings, making it a 48 supply army. Cost 3000/2100.
Again, I tried PPD first. I placed down the PDDs, and attacked with the mutas spread out (magic box). 20 (!!!) mutas survived!
Then I tried with auto-turrets: ALL mutas DEAD, and on the terran side 3 ravens, 4 vikings, 1 thor and 10 auto-turrets survived. And let me remind you, that the zerg army had 3/3 upgrades, was 60 supply and costed 3000/3000. The terran army had 0/0 upgrades, costed 3000/2100 and had 48 supply.
Conclusion:
1) ultra hardcore mass muta can be dealt with entirely w/o marines in a straight up battle.
2) the most powerful raven spell is, oddly, the auto-turret. At least vs mass muta. I really didnt expect that.
Marines pretty much melt instantly in every TvP lategame to either mass collossi or storms. Imo marines are completely useless in lategame TvP. In TvZ they are still good but mass infestor/broodlord owns marines too. To argue that marines are a good lategame unit is ridiculous.
I'm pretty sure marines beat broodlords cost for cost. But none of that has anything to do with the ghost.
blabla Lategame TvT, you want to have more tanks and less marines and eventually transition into air. Lategame TvP, you want to add more and more marauders and ghosts and, preferably make almost no marines at all. Lategame TvZ, you ideally want a tank, ghosts + maybe thor/raven/viking army and no marines either really, or at least not alot of marines
I highly disagree with you. TvT. Why would you upgrade 3-3 for marines if u make less of them? You still make tons of them as well as tanks/medivacs/viks, assuming the game is a standard Marine/Tank vs Marine/Tank. Only tanks vs Marines/tanks rly suck cauz you have no meatshield. Having less marines = less drops/less mobility. TvP. In late game, you're supposed to have what counters AoE units from Protoss, aka Vikings and Ghosts. If you manage to snipe the obs and are abble to shut down templars/archons and colossi, your marines still live and do their job.
How could you possibly disagree with me lol? If you play terran at a reasonably high level, you will find that marines are not a good lategame unit.
For starters. In TvT, every single decent terran will put up a turret ring lategame which makes drops completely ineffective and lategame, marines are simply pointless because mass tanks destroys marines with 0 tanks lost. The reason people generally stop building marines lategame and transition into air is because mass marine lose effectiveness in such a lategame scenario.
In TvP, you might aswell just say "if you manage to EMP all HT and archons and kill all collossi you should win the game. What exactly is the purpose of lategame marines vs. protoss? They are horrible vs. literally every single protoss unit with the exception of zealots, which get countered by ghost snipe/standard attack. Marauder are the superior unit in every single way. A marine eats a storm and actually dies in less than 2 seconds, a marauder however survives storms, same goes for collossi shots, marines just melt agaisnt 3-4 collossi, whereas marauders can take quite some damage.
I only ever hear people argue that it is possible to use marines lategame, but nobody ever explains why they are supposed to be good or superior to the other options you have. yes, you can build mass marine lategame in every MU, you know what you can also do? build mass pure reaper or pure mass hellions, chances are that it's not very effective though.
I just have to wonder, have you ever played a marine tank vs. marine tank game against a decent opponent? There is a point in the game where your opponent hits that magical tank count, after he hits that tank count marines just get destroyed and can't even get in range anymore. Same goes for TvP, when your opponent gets his lategame deathball with collossi archons and HTs out marines are more of a deadweight than a useful unit. If your only argument is that "marines could be good if you completely outplay your opponent and kill everything before it deals 0 damage to you", however that is supposed to work out... then your argument is extremely weak and a debate with you is actually nothing but a waste of my time. Have a nice day.
But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed.
Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least.
You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 ....
It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself.
Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft.
Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs.
But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see.
You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here
Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time.
On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit.
You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ.
If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field.
I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines.
Well against Mutas you will def need Marines or a buttload of well upgraded Thors ^^ . Either you play full Mech with a at least somewhat decent Thor count or you will need Marines and Upgrades for them. And if he sees you completely abandon Marines there's nothing stopping the Zerg from just switching back to Mutas . Vikings even on way better upgrades are not an option . And don't get me started at how bad they are on the ground.
I've just tested some random nonsense in the unit tester.
Believe it or not, PDD is not all that powerful against mutas. BUT the upgraded auto-turret (building armor and high sec tracking) rapes mutas so hard, its not even funny. 125 HP, 3 armor, 7 range, 8 damage per shot and a 0,8 attack cooldown. Very, very powerful.
What I tried, was to find a combination, that excluded marines and had 0/0 upgrades, but could rape 30 mutas which have 3/3 upgrades. And look at this:
1) only vikings with no upgrades, with 3 ravens for PDDs. Cost wise, thats 3000/3000 for zerg (plus the 3/3 upgrades) and only 3000/1950 for terran. Supplies were 60 vs 42, z and t resp. I assumed the ravens would have full energy, which is not totally realistic, but nor is the insane upgrade advantage for the zerg. The terran army consisting of 3 ravens and 18 vikings failed horribly. 19 mutas were left.
Then I tried instead of the PDD, to employ auto-turrets (+2 building armor and +1 range upgraded). With 3 full energy ravens you can place down 12 (!) of these suckers. This time, only 16 mutas survived.
2) I tried to mix in thors, for better damage output. Again 30 mutas with 3/3 ups (= 60 supply) against a non upgraded terran army. 3 thors, 3 ravens and 12 vikings, making it a 48 supply army. Cost 3000/2100.
Again, I tried PPD first. I placed down the PDDs, and attacked with the mutas spread out (magic box). 20 (!!!) mutas survived!
Then I tried with auto-turrets: ALL mutas DEAD, and on the terran side 3 ravens, 4 vikings, 1 thor and 10 auto-turrets survived. And let me remind you, that the zerg army had 3/3 upgrades, was 60 supply and costed 3000/3000. The terran army had 0/0 upgrades, costed 3000/2100 and had 48 supply.
Conclusion:
1) ultra hardcore mass muta can be dealt with entirely w/o marines in a straight up battle.
2) the most powerful raven spell is, oddly, the auto-turret. At least vs mass muta. I really didnt expect that.
Next, I will experiment with BCs vs zerg.
lollll and then the mutas fly to another point on the map and trust me, your auto turrets move there really slow
You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 ....
It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself.
Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft.
Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs.
But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see.
You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here
Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time.
On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit.
You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ.
If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field.
I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines.
Well against Mutas you will def need Marines or a buttload of well upgraded Thors ^^ . Either you play full Mech with a at least somewhat decent Thor count or you will need Marines and Upgrades for them. And if he sees you completely abandon Marines there's nothing stopping the Zerg from just switching back to Mutas . Vikings even on way better upgrades are not an option . And don't get me started at how bad they are on the ground.
I've just tested some random nonsense in the unit tester.
Believe it or not, PDD is not all that powerful against mutas. BUT the upgraded auto-turret (building armor and high sec tracking) rapes mutas so hard, its not even funny. 125 HP, 3 armor, 7 range, 8 damage per shot and a 0,8 attack cooldown. Very, very powerful.
What I tried, was to find a combination, that excluded marines and had 0/0 upgrades, but could rape 30 mutas which have 3/3 upgrades. And look at this:
1) only vikings with no upgrades, with 3 ravens for PDDs. Cost wise, thats 3000/3000 for zerg (plus the 3/3 upgrades) and only 3000/1950 for terran. Supplies were 60 vs 42, z and t resp. I assumed the ravens would have full energy, which is not totally realistic, but nor is the insane upgrade advantage for the zerg. The terran army consisting of 3 ravens and 18 vikings failed horribly. 19 mutas were left.
Then I tried instead of the PDD, to employ auto-turrets (+2 building armor and +1 range upgraded). With 3 full energy ravens you can place down 12 (!) of these suckers. This time, only 16 mutas survived.
2) I tried to mix in thors, for better damage output. Again 30 mutas with 3/3 ups (= 60 supply) against a non upgraded terran army. 3 thors, 3 ravens and 12 vikings, making it a 48 supply army. Cost 3000/2100.
Again, I tried PPD first. I placed down the PDDs, and attacked with the mutas spread out (magic box). 20 (!!!) mutas survived!
Then I tried with auto-turrets: ALL mutas DEAD, and on the terran side 3 ravens, 4 vikings, 1 thor and 10 auto-turrets survived. And let me remind you, that the zerg army had 3/3 upgrades, was 60 supply and costed 3000/3000. The terran army had 0/0 upgrades, costed 3000/2100 and had 48 supply.
Conclusion:
1) ultra hardcore mass muta can be dealt with entirely w/o marines in a straight up battle.
2) the most powerful raven spell is, oddly, the auto-turret. At least vs mass muta. I really didnt expect that.
Next, I will experiment with BCs vs zerg.
lollll and then the mutas fly to another point on the map and trust me, your auto turrets move there really slow
Damnit! You beat me to it!
I wouldn't bother wasting your time with BC's, you will find they are next to useless.
EPT
