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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 19 2012 08:18 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 08:09 Darknat wrote:
I think Blizzard should tell Protoss and Zerg players to L2P instead of nerfing Terran all the time. There's no motivator for Protoss and Zerg players to L2P when what they're losing to always gets nerfed. P and Z use every unit, every upgrade they have. Its time for terrans to do the same (= L2P), in order to win. And thanks to continues patching, it will happen.
Tell me the last time you saw someone use a carrier and then tell me the last time someone used nydus worm. Doesn't happen very often...
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I have been playing the games since it came out, and watching since the Beta. All the differente patches that address balance issues, mostly consist in nerfing some unit that has been doing really well lately. It seems like the idea behind all this is: "This strategy using X unit has become very powerfull. It's so OP! Let's nerf it!" Why not let the other races learn to deal with it?? This is only making the game become more and more standard as time goes by, and with that, less fun.
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On February 19 2012 08:35 Elyvilon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 08:32 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 08:22 TheDwf wrote:On February 19 2012 07:49 PureBalls wrote:
Its funny how protoss use all their units, except carriers. And even the mothership is now part of the standard late game play against zerg. But terrans ignore BCs, ravens, PFs with upgrades, medivac upgrades, and still win!
I'd say, terrans are allowed to QQ after they have integrated all of this into their standard play, and it has proven to not be enough. As long as they have the luxury of skipping most of their potential, there is nothing to bitch about. It's also funny how random Gold theorycrafters think they know more about a race they do not play than higher skilled players that actually main Terran. I'm pretty sure you could write an essay about how Reapers are the ultimate solution to lategame TvZ, but players (you know, people who play the game—not those who watch) know better than that. As a matter of fact, I made a post, page 166, about why other Terran options in lategame all have big problems. This comes from someone who plays the game and plays Terran, so I'm really sorry if it's something sensible. Anyway, you can read it here. And since you seem to love fun facts, here's one more: armor building upgrade and range upgrade do not solve any of the TvP lategame problems. And, once again, this comes from someone who does research those upgrades whenever I can afford them. But, see, your Supply Depot having 2 more armor does little to those 20 charge Zealots the Protoss warped to defend his base, nor does it scare that much this creepy little guy calling down thunder on your wounded bio. PFs still die in 4 seconds (okay, maybe 4.246 seconds with armor upgrade?) against a maxed army. There's nothing wrong about that, of course, but don't come and pretend it will change something. But then again, what do you expect from someone who does not even understand the gross imbalance of Khaydarin Amulet... You know what? I dont really car about the problems YOU have in non-mirror MUs. All I care is, that this game is finally getting close to balanced. And it is. After all, you are the terran player, so its YOUR job to find the solutions to your problems (= figure it out). Wasnt that the "advice" you gave us, when we were getting raped every game by a 90% winrate 1/1/1? Having problems with storm, late game warpgate and broodlor/infestor? Well I'm sorry, figure it out. So what you're doing is saying, "well why don't you experiment you lazy uncreative terrans", and then when people show you that they've experimented, you respond with "Hey GUESS WHAT, I don't care about the problems you have." Stay classy.
Let's be clear here, I dont expect anyone on TL to revolutionize late game terran play. Not even ppl like Beastyqt. When it happens, it will be like every other time. The revolution will come from Korea.
Remember Hellions? According to terrans at the time, a useless unit. Boxer and his boys come up with a couple of cool builds, and suddenly not only that the Hellion is not useless, no it turns out it is imbalanced like hell. Zergs are crying like mad, and Blizz nerfs them. Yeah, I bet the same potential lays in all the units, upgrades and abilities that are not being used now.
After all, it took terrans like 1 1/2 years (since beta) to "discover" the Hellion. And why did it take so long? Its simple, the unit wasnt needed. Why change a running system? If your good ol' MMMs/Tank+Rine do the job, theres no need to try something else.
And the same thing holds for ghosts. If they obliterate entire zeg T3, why try anything else?
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[QUOTE]On February 19 2012 08:32 PureBalls wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 19 2012 08:22 TheDwf wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 19 2012 07:49 PureBalls wrote:
After all, you are the terran player, so its YOUR job to find the solutions to your problems (= figure it out). Wasnt that the "advice" you gave us, when we were getting raped every game by a 90% winrate 1/1/1?
Having problems with storm, late game warpgate and broodlor/infestor? Well I'm sorry, figure it out.[/QUOTE]
Nerfs and buffs kinda helped a ton figuring it out btw.And you are talking about an early game composition that is rather strong and we are talking about non viable late game scenarios.Were you can lose any eco advantage or army advantage just because you don't have any proper answer to an army composition.The game is not going to become unwinable cause still you could still grab such an advantage in earlier games that you can stomp your way anyways.We are talking about a balanced mid game that has a goal to reach a lategame composition which is practically non existant for terrans atm.Yeah there could be something magical figured out in the following months but for the moment or at that time that ghosts were not utilized lategame tvz was impossible.Also at that time Ultralisks were not buffed(20 secs less building time) and tech switches were softer and still terrans struggled badly.I think the problem is in the infestor broodlord synergy rather than protoss needs for buffs or nerfs against it.Protoss struggle too against it at high levels and if i was a pro protoss i wouldnt want to let all my hopes on a mothership spell that could fail or even be neural parasited and vortex my own army..
and while we are at it how the hell can an infestor np a mothership for god's sake.Just make it immune blizz that's sad.
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and why are we at it how the hell can an infestor np a mothership for god's sake.Just make it immune blizz that's sad.
No! Any protoss that fails that hard, and allows his mothership to be NP'ed should get raped. And I'm saying this as a toss player
And I am aware of the BL/Inf synergy. But I do believe that terrans will, just as protoss have done, learn to deal with it.
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On February 19 2012 08:44 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 08:35 Elyvilon wrote:On February 19 2012 08:32 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 08:22 TheDwf wrote:On February 19 2012 07:49 PureBalls wrote:
Its funny how protoss use all their units, except carriers. And even the mothership is now part of the standard late game play against zerg. But terrans ignore BCs, ravens, PFs with upgrades, medivac upgrades, and still win!
I'd say, terrans are allowed to QQ after they have integrated all of this into their standard play, and it has proven to not be enough. As long as they have the luxury of skipping most of their potential, there is nothing to bitch about. It's also funny how random Gold theorycrafters think they know more about a race they do not play than higher skilled players that actually main Terran. I'm pretty sure you could write an essay about how Reapers are the ultimate solution to lategame TvZ, but players (you know, people who play the game—not those who watch) know better than that. As a matter of fact, I made a post, page 166, about why other Terran options in lategame all have big problems. This comes from someone who plays the game and plays Terran, so I'm really sorry if it's something sensible. Anyway, you can read it here. And since you seem to love fun facts, here's one more: armor building upgrade and range upgrade do not solve any of the TvP lategame problems. And, once again, this comes from someone who does research those upgrades whenever I can afford them. But, see, your Supply Depot having 2 more armor does little to those 20 charge Zealots the Protoss warped to defend his base, nor does it scare that much this creepy little guy calling down thunder on your wounded bio. PFs still die in 4 seconds (okay, maybe 4.246 seconds with armor upgrade?) against a maxed army. There's nothing wrong about that, of course, but don't come and pretend it will change something. But then again, what do you expect from someone who does not even understand the gross imbalance of Khaydarin Amulet... You know what? I dont really car about the problems YOU have in non-mirror MUs. All I care is, that this game is finally getting close to balanced. And it is. After all, you are the terran player, so its YOUR job to find the solutions to your problems (= figure it out). Wasnt that the "advice" you gave us, when we were getting raped every game by a 90% winrate 1/1/1? Having problems with storm, late game warpgate and broodlor/infestor? Well I'm sorry, figure it out. So what you're doing is saying, "well why don't you experiment you lazy uncreative terrans", and then when people show you that they've experimented, you respond with "Hey GUESS WHAT, I don't care about the problems you have." Stay classy. Let's be clear here, I dont expect anyone on TL to revolutionize late game terran play. Not even ppl like Beastyqt. When it happens, it will be like every other time. The revolution will come from Korea. Remember Hellions? According to terrans at the time, a useless unit. Boxer and his boys come up with a couple of cool builds, and suddenly not only that the Hellion is not useless, no it turns out it is imbalanced like hell. Zergs are crying like mad, and Blizz nerfs them. Yeah, I bet the same potential lays in all the units, upgrades and abilities that are not being used now. After all, it took terrans like 1 1/2 years (since beta) to "discover" the Hellion. And why did it take so long? Its simple, the unit wasnt needed. Why change a running system? If your good ol' MMMs/Tank+Rine do the job, theres no need to try something else. And the same thing holds for ghosts. If they obliterate entire zeg T3, why try anything else?
Hellions were already used.Reactor helion builds were around for a while and blue flame had its uses in situations already.Slayers solidified it and the rest of the world exploited.Hell when i was in gold league at the release of the game i was massing helions vs z at all times cause i thought it was epic to roast everything!! :D
As for ghosts.Broodlords are units that need no micro and are tough as hell.Whatever unit terran has that could make a difference( ravens? ) its a spellcaster type of unit that gets raped by the infestor due to fungal and short range of abilities.IF we terrans had a unit that could actually stand a beast above me and i would gladly engage the caster wars with your infestors like the blizzard obviously wants me to do.But even if imp your infestors i still can't kill your broodlors even if i go heavy air,ultra transition rolls over ground army.Even if the off chance i have 4 battlecruisers they are slow moving and really against 5 armor ultras do shit damage Ultras could kill everything i have while you remax on 50 corruptros to kill my battlecruisers.
Ling baneling trades pretty efficiently with marine tank if you engage it properly and can go both ways easily.The thing is that you have a higher goal after this while we don't have and that is where the problem is.We just want a viable lategame scenario and that is not a raven cloud that could get chain fungaled and die in 3 seconds.
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On February 19 2012 08:52 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +and why are we at it how the hell can an infestor np a mothership for god's sake.Just make it immune blizz that's sad. No! Any protoss that fails that hard, and allows his mothership to be NP'ed should get raped. And I'm saying this as a toss player And I am aware of the BL/Inf synergy. But I do believe that terrans will, just as protoss have done, learn to deal with it.
But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed.
Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least.
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On February 19 2012 09:04 Tulkas25 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 08:52 PureBalls wrote:and why are we at it how the hell can an infestor np a mothership for god's sake.Just make it immune blizz that's sad. No! Any protoss that fails that hard, and allows his mothership to be NP'ed should get raped. And I'm saying this as a toss player And I am aware of the BL/Inf synergy. But I do believe that terrans will, just as protoss have done, learn to deal with it. But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed. Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least.
You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 ....
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On February 19 2012 09:15 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:04 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 08:52 PureBalls wrote:and why are we at it how the hell can an infestor np a mothership for god's sake.Just make it immune blizz that's sad. No! Any protoss that fails that hard, and allows his mothership to be NP'ed should get raped. And I'm saying this as a toss player And I am aware of the BL/Inf synergy. But I do believe that terrans will, just as protoss have done, learn to deal with it. But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed. Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least. You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 ....
It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself.
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On February 19 2012 09:21 Tulkas25 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:15 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:04 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 08:52 PureBalls wrote:and why are we at it how the hell can an infestor np a mothership for god's sake.Just make it immune blizz that's sad. No! Any protoss that fails that hard, and allows his mothership to be NP'ed should get raped. And I'm saying this as a toss player And I am aware of the BL/Inf synergy. But I do believe that terrans will, just as protoss have done, learn to deal with it. But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed. Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least. You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 .... It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself.
Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft.
Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs.
But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see.
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On February 19 2012 09:29 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:21 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:15 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:04 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 08:52 PureBalls wrote:and why are we at it how the hell can an infestor np a mothership for god's sake.Just make it immune blizz that's sad. No! Any protoss that fails that hard, and allows his mothership to be NP'ed should get raped. And I'm saying this as a toss player And I am aware of the BL/Inf synergy. But I do believe that terrans will, just as protoss have done, learn to deal with it. But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed. Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least. You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 .... It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself. Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft. Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs. But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see.
You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here
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On February 19 2012 09:36 Tulkas25 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:29 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:21 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:15 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:04 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 08:52 PureBalls wrote:and why are we at it how the hell can an infestor np a mothership for god's sake.Just make it immune blizz that's sad. No! Any protoss that fails that hard, and allows his mothership to be NP'ed should get raped. And I'm saying this as a toss player And I am aware of the BL/Inf synergy. But I do believe that terrans will, just as protoss have done, learn to deal with it. But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed. Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least. You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 .... It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself. Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft. Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs. But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see. You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here
Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time.
On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit.
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i believe lucifron popularised reactor hellion like in the first couple of weeks of beta... back when we couldn't get our hands on any korean replays or vods.
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On February 19 2012 09:55 shizna wrote:
i believe lucifron popularised reactor hellion like in the first couple of weeks of beta... back when we couldn't get our hands on any korean replays or vods.
i belive it was david kim who used reactor hellion first in beta, but it wasnt so good back then because everybody did 1base roach rushes and 3rax stim pushes lol
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On February 19 2012 09:48 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:36 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:29 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:21 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:15 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:04 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 08:52 PureBalls wrote:and why are we at it how the hell can an infestor np a mothership for god's sake.Just make it immune blizz that's sad. No! Any protoss that fails that hard, and allows his mothership to be NP'ed should get raped. And I'm saying this as a toss player And I am aware of the BL/Inf synergy. But I do believe that terrans will, just as protoss have done, learn to deal with it. But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed. Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least. You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 .... It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself. Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft. Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs. But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see. You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time. On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit.
You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ.
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On February 19 2012 10:04 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:48 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:29 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:21 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:15 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:04 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 08:52 PureBalls wrote:and why are we at it how the hell can an infestor np a mothership for god's sake.Just make it immune blizz that's sad. No! Any protoss that fails that hard, and allows his mothership to be NP'ed should get raped. And I'm saying this as a toss player And I am aware of the BL/Inf synergy. But I do believe that terrans will, just as protoss have done, learn to deal with it. But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed. Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least. You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 .... It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself. Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft. Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs. But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see. You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time. On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit. You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ. If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field.
I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines.
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On February 19 2012 09:48 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 09:36 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:29 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:21 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:15 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:04 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 08:52 PureBalls wrote:and why are we at it how the hell can an infestor np a mothership for god's sake.Just make it immune blizz that's sad. No! Any protoss that fails that hard, and allows his mothership to be NP'ed should get raped. And I'm saying this as a toss player And I am aware of the BL/Inf synergy. But I do believe that terrans will, just as protoss have done, learn to deal with it. But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed. Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least. You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 .... It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself. Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft. Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs. But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see. You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time. On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit.
I would honestly love to see the "Raven" reworked from Blizzard. This is the only unit that can save a Terrans late-game imo. But with the "current" state of the Raven, there's not much going for it atm.
I don't know what needs to be done;
- Speed Buff?
- HSM Range buff?
- Changing the energy costs? Abilities seem really expensive for me.
If Blizzard were to make a few little subtle changes to it, I think this little baby could be our saviour in the late-game T v P mu and T v Z (since ghost nerf).
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On February 19 2012 10:10 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 10:04 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:48 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:29 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:21 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:15 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:04 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 08:52 PureBalls wrote:and why are we at it how the hell can an infestor np a mothership for god's sake.Just make it immune blizz that's sad. No! Any protoss that fails that hard, and allows his mothership to be NP'ed should get raped. And I'm saying this as a toss player And I am aware of the BL/Inf synergy. But I do believe that terrans will, just as protoss have done, learn to deal with it. But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed. Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least. You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 .... It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself. Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft. Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs. But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see. You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time. On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit. You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ. If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field. I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines.
Well against Mutas you will def need Marines or a buttload of well upgraded Thors ^^ . Either you play full Mech with a at least somewhat decent Thor count or you will need Marines and Upgrades for them. And if he sees you completely abandon Marines there's nothing stopping the Zerg from just switching back to Mutas . Vikings even on way better upgrades are not an option . And don't get me started at how bad they are on the ground.
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On February 19 2012 10:10 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2012 10:04 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:48 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:36 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:29 PureBalls wrote:On February 19 2012 09:21 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 09:15 s3rp wrote:On February 19 2012 09:04 Tulkas25 wrote:On February 19 2012 08:52 PureBalls wrote:and why are we at it how the hell can an infestor np a mothership for god's sake.Just make it immune blizz that's sad. No! Any protoss that fails that hard, and allows his mothership to be NP'ed should get raped. And I'm saying this as a toss player And I am aware of the BL/Inf synergy. But I do believe that terrans will, just as protoss have done, learn to deal with it. But we learned to deal with it and believe me it is not easy anyway.It is like blizzard nerfing the range of vortex by half..how would you feel??IT is not an easy thing to find the right positioning to cast your vortex for it in order to be effective but because it can possibly be you get it nerfed. Btw i am trying to have a conversation.I personally prefer a more dynamic midgame with a gazillion drops and small skirmishes hoping to reach lategame with a big advantage and go from there.My lategame army control needs a lot of work anyway and i fail ghost micro all the time.But i really would like to know that i have some lategame options because i have tried battlecruiers and it was not funny the least. You're wrong there mate it is funny how bad a units that builds for ages and costs 400/300 actually is ..... .Raven's with some buffs could be an option to make it more versitile and HSM should not cost 125 .... It's not lile the ghost count and the needed energy needed is something that builds off a low economy and over 5 seconds.Even ten ghosts cost 2000/1000 and still can die a horrible death easily.You get the crappy mothership to give your army the solution against the otherwise probably unbeatable broodlord infestor and that makes the mothership more than paying for itself. Which only works, when you have ALL 3 protoss tech paths unlocked, which is like the hardest thing in all of starcraft. Colossi (T3 robo) to clear the broodlings, mothership (T3 stargate) to vertex and archons (T3 gateway) to toilet. And not even then is it an auto win. Recently high level zergs have began to spread out their BLs. But what I'm trying to say: compared to that protoss army, which is needed to eradicated BL/Inf, requirements on terran tech are laughable. No terran T3 required to kill BLs...for now. After the patch? We will see. You dont have any fear of the ultralisk tech switch though witch is pretty improtant.Anyway you seem a reasonable person and i think you realise that there is something wrong there if almost every single terran feels bad about it.(not many people bitched that hard when emp was nerfed).But as you say we will see.Patch is almost here Ultras do kind of suck, dont they? As a protoss, I mostly fear fungal combined with some small shit. Like hords of zerglings or bane-rain. Especially the letter can wreck the costly army in no time. On the terran side of things, I do feel that HSMs are probably useless but also not needed. I think that the PDD is the far better spell anyway. I can envision a late game scenario, where the terran makes only a handful of ghosts to EMP the infestors, throws a PDD to reduce corruptor DPS, and blows the whole zerg air out of the sky. After the engagement, he would probably need to blind counter ultras, by making like 20 marauders. But, is there really anything that can stop you, besides infestors, BLs and ultras? I mean, when you get to the late game army as terran, zerglings, roaches and banes are useless. Even landed vikings with a couple of tanks in the back and marauders can clear the small shit. You will allways need a decent Marine count unless you hardcore Mech else pure lings will probably be your death. It may sound stupid for a Protoss but tanks aren't all that great against Lings without the proper Marine or Helion support. Only reason Terran ever builds tanks in TvZ are honestly Banelings and later bigge Infestor Numbers without them Tanks would not be needed at all in TvZ. If I'm not mistaken, marines tend to lose their value in late game, both vP and vZ. They have awesome DPS, but also very low HP. I dont think they are really supply efficient, as soon as AoE is on the field. I think that marauders (although lower DPS per supply) are better especially, if you land your vikings. Vikings do have good DPS, and are somewhat big (like stalkers) so that lings cant get good surface area. It should be possible to play with 0 marines.
Again, you're wrong from the beginning to the end. Marines DONT lose their value, u fail to realize that once they are upgraded with shield/stim/3-3 + healed by medivac, they easily could be considered tier 2 or even 2.5, imagine if you micro them a tiny bit.. Marines do the same amount of damage as the maurader, but with higher fire rate + you get them from reactor aka 2 by 2 aka u reinforce your army much faster than getting marauders/ghosts only.
Then, you dont "land" vikings cauz they suck hardcore vs 3 armored ground units and they die horribly fast against +3 attack ground units, terrans dont upgrade air attack nor air armor cauz they're using their armory for +1/+2 mech attack.
Finally. You're talking about surface area. Maps tend to be bigger and bigger, with wider center for big battles. If you clump up all your "somewhat" big units, guess what, fungals happen. If you split your units, guess what, more surface area for lings. Just watch TLO vs MKP from some recent cw. Im begging you to PLEASE stop bsing about a topic you have no clue at.
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[QUOTE]On February 19 2012 08:46 Tulkas25 wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 19 2012 08:32 PureBalls wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 19 2012 08:22 TheDwf wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 19 2012 07:49 PureBalls wrote:
After all, you are the terran player, so its YOUR job to find the solutions to your problems (= figure it out). Wasnt that the "advice" you gave us, when we were getting raped every game by a 90% winrate 1/1/1?
Having problems with storm, late game warpgate and broodlor/infestor? Well I'm sorry, figure it out.[/QUOTE]
Nerfs and buffs kinda helped a ton figuring it out btw.And you are talking about an early game composition that is rather strong and we are talking about non viable late game scenarios.Were you can lose any eco advantage or army advantage just because you don't have any proper answer to an army composition.The game is not going to become unwinable cause still you could still grab such an advantage in earlier games that you can stomp your way anyways.We are talking about a balanced mid game that has a goal to reach a lategame composition which is practically non existant for terrans atm.Yeah there could be something magical figured out in the following months but for the moment or at that time that ghosts were not utilized lategame tvz was impossible.Also at that time Ultralisks were not buffed(20 secs less building time) and tech switches were softer and still terrans struggled badly.I think the problem is in the infestor broodlord synergy rather than protoss needs for buffs or nerfs against it.Protoss struggle too against it at high levels and if i was a pro protoss i wouldnt want to let all my hopes on a mothership spell that could fail or even be neural parasited and vortex my own army..
and while we are at it how the hell can an infestor np a mothership for god's sake.Just make it immune blizz that's sad.[/QUOTE]
There may have been some people that were saying "Figure it out." But most people knew there was a pboblem that needed fixing. It was a sticky issue though. None of the units involved were UP or OP, but more the timing of the attack and conbimation of units were togeather a pboblem
I liked how Blizzard fixed the issue: some cautous buffs to Toss, and some time for Toss to figure it out a bit better. The combination worked well even though I still think Protoss doesn't have a lot of room for error.
Compare how Blizzard handled that to how they're handling the ghost. The ghost presents a far smaller issue than the 1-1-1 did yet instead of small changes and some time, they immedietley implement a rather signifigant nurf. It's partly how Blizzard is handling the problem that's pissing people off. That in addition to Terrans already having a tough time in late game overall, and Terrans in masters and below already irritated that the race appears harder than the other two for less skilled players.
Sure Terran in Korea is doing very well, but we don't live in Korea and we don't play the game professionally, and we don't have 300 APM or ridiculous micro and multitasking making out Tier 1 units look OP, and we have to listen to "TERRAN OP, TERRAN OP" comments every day when clearly Terran aint OP outside Code S Korea.
All togeather the anxiety level has been building, and building -- and this ghosts decision is like the last straw. Zergs and Protoss have had their bitch times, Terran is having theirs. And I think they have a gripe.
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EPT
