Patch 1.4.3 - Preview Blog - Page 191

On February 14 2012 10:15 Kharnage wrote:


Cool, go ahead and sack 8 SCVs and build 4 more marauders like that'll make a fucking difference.
Or maybe an extra 8 marines.
It won't do shit to a Protoss like Parting who is setup correctly at end game with HT and colossus.

Bank a few more thousand gas and wonder why your tier 1 & 2 army can't get the job done.

On February 14 2012 11:17 usethis2 wrote:
This patch changes look like too obvious a pandering to the community. A mule on gold was not an issue. Heck, mules were not the issue. People understand that Terran needs workers do other stuff (build, repair, etc.) and Mules make up for that. The complain has always been that there is no cool-down on Mules, allowing Terrans to rain dozens of mules at once to compensate their less-than-perfect macro. This Mule change accomplishes absolutely nothing. But certainly comes up as diplomatic. (Hey, we at the Blizzard always listen to the players!)

On February 14 2012 11:32 Rorschach wrote:


Scoff, the only place I see Archon toilet is on the US and EU servers where zergs don't play correctly (getting overeager to end the game and spreading out the BL so it takes two vortex)....
You sure don't see toss willing to go to late game against zergs in the GSL unless they laid a crippling blow early on....

Granted I think the mothership+archons is stupid and broken the zerg deathball is far superior in both MU's.
Toss should have a way to go toe to toe with bl/spine,infestor/transfuse/remax without relying on a shitty gimmick.....

On February 14 2012 11:28 mlspmatt wrote:

This is what people argue who have no valid arguments to make. Make Battle Cruisers. It's been tried, it doesn't work.

If your in a Max v Max battle and want to remax with 4 battle Cruisers. After the battle you start building your BC's, and wait the 90s for them to build. In that 90 seconds Toss can use his 15 gates to wapr in 30 supply 3 times before your BC's hit the field.

How do you suggest Terran survives during that 90 seconds when 24 supply is occupied in the starport? That's assuming BC's give you any real advantage, which they don't.

4 Stalkers are about the same cost as 1 BC, are much more mobile, have more health, very similar DPS (Both fully upgraded) and can be produced much much faster. It simply doesn't make sense to make BC's.

And yes of course Terran will have marauders to handle the Stalkers, but protoss will have charge-Lots + Archons to handle the marauders. There's no advantage to making BC's. And if you take into consideration the cost of getting the BC tech, it's a losing proposition for terran.

On February 14 2012 10:37 vthree wrote:
Imo, feedback should not work on massive or at least reduce effectiveness. HTs are as versatile as ghosts but it also counters BOTH BC and THors while ghost does not counter colossus.

On February 14 2012 11:48 tdt wrote:


That's the same reason Ghost snipe should not be changed. Like the MS gimmick snipe is terrans only way with dealing with that.


And either one is not impossible to stop. MS? Spread. Ghosts? more overseers + lings.

On February 14 2012 11:58 Kharnage wrote:


Who said anything about re-maxing on BC? When you're remaxing you want as many units as fast as possible so you don't die. It's like Protoss 'remaxing' on Carriers. Good way to die.

I'm talking about at the point where you start sacking SCV's to increase army size don't waste your extra size on 4 more marauders when Protoss is already doing everything they can do counter exactly that. The 'upgrades' required are what, a Fusion core and a starport with tech lab? Terran can so afford that at that stage of the late game. The resources are there, the time is there, usually there are too big arse armies dancing around the map,
Protoss are trying to get a decent re-max bank and finishing off upgrades. Terran are getting a PFs up and sacking SCV's to for a bigger army.
And honestly, pick whatever unit you want, the BC is just an obvious choice. The fact is that Terran banks a shitload of gas in that stage of the game and uses their extra 25 army supply on units that Protoss already has a way to deal with. That 25 supply is Terran's edge in the late game, and it's being squandered away on a handful of extra marines, marauders and maybe an extra ghost. You could fit 3 BC's in there, Yamoto an SCV before battle and use the BC's to control space while you micro your bio. Love to see how those zealots fare as they chase a kiting bio army while under fire from 3 BCs. Yes, some damage will come from storms and feedback on the BCs, yes some stalkers will take them down, but I'd be willing to bet you'd get more value from 3 BCs as your 'bonus supply' than you will from 12 more Maruaders getting stormed and cut apart by colossus.

On February 14 2012 12:21 usethis2 wrote:
Those who insist the Phoenix change is not significant, or even (gasp) meaningless - Think about the opposite. Imagine Z gets 300/200 upgrade from Greater Spire that gives Mutalisks +2 range. (range 5 Mutas... shudder....) Do you think that'll be a "meaningless" change? How about Fusion Core giving +2 range upgrade for Marauders. (range 8 Marauders!!) Plus, Fleet beacon + Phoenix upgrade isn't any different than Twilight Council + Blink or Robotics Bay + Thermal lance. People need to have some honesty. This comes from Protoss players. (me, and Wolf the caster)

On February 14 2012 12:55 IMoperator wrote:
they best be testing that snipe change. A little worried with the lack of PTR

On February 13 2012 00:34 TheDwf wrote:
High Master Terran on Europe here, sometimes playing GMs. Since I'm usually only a spectator for the PvZ match-up, I will not talk about the Phoenix change.

MULEs now harvest the same amount of minerals on both high yield minerals and normal minerals.
This change is somewhat ok, though gold and MULE-haters should remember that Terran players gain little “more” by taking their fourth and fifth bases, unlike Zergs and Protosses who have then access to their precious 8/10 gases to build gas-heavy powerful units en masse. Since Terran do not benefit as much as the other races from 8/10 gases compared to 6 gases, is it that imbalanced that they're rewarded with a temporary income boost in the ressource that matters the most for them, i.e. minerals? People should remember that faster mining also means the base will be mined out earlier than normal, which means Terrans will have to (over)extend again to maintain the same income, something which is not easy to do on some maps. Now, talking about maps—I think this is the main issue with gold bases. Take Antiga for instance; gold bases were removed in recent tournament versions: did it change anything to the fact that, in ZvT, once the Terran player controls the center, the Zerg player is in deep trouble anyway?

Snipe damage changed from 45 to 25 +25 Psionic
This is a terrible and very poorly thought change. As long as neither flying Banelings (read: Ravens) nor BattleCruisers are really viable, Terrans will still need some kind of “universal unit” against Zerg tier3. Reasons are known—thanks to the way their race works, Zergs are able to remax on Ultralisks after they've traded their Broodlords, and vice versa. Since Vikings don't do well against Ultralisks, nor Marauders are particularly hot against Broodlords, and with Terran having the slowest production in the game, the Zerg possibility to tech switch in a little more than a minut (55 sec for Ultralisks, 74 for Broodlords) without the Terran being able to know which unit the Zerg chose until he sees eggs spawning (this is of the utmost importance, because it means Terran is forced to wait at least 40 sec before starting his “counter units”) means that Terrans have to be able to rely on units that are good against one option, and at least “ok” against the other option—not to mention that at this point, Zergs should have banked enough larvae to be able to quickly build a Zergling swarm.

Thors are somewhat ok against both Broodlords and Ultralisks, but their anti-air low rate of fire simply prevents them from killing Broodlords efficiently, especially with Queens being able to negate many shots in a single Transfuse. Besides, Thors are slow to replenish, and they cost 6 supply whereas Broodlords cost only 4. Macro OCs allow the Terran player to have a bigger army, but since Broodlords are air units while Thors are clumsy and bulky ground units, the more Thors you have the worst they will perform against high Broodlords count (and, once again, let us not forget the Broodlings swarm that comes with Broodlords, which at some point may simply prevent some Thors to reach Broodlords).

So, we have the tech switch issue, but we also have the “mass Broodlords with Infests” issue. Unlike Ultralisks, which are melee ground units and cost 6 supply anyway, Broodlords do not become weaker the more you have of them; actually, thanks to the Broodlings mechanic, it's quite the contrary. Terrans need a realistic answer to mass Broodlords/Infestors (of course with Corruptor support if needed) armies that inevitably come with late late game.

So Terran bro, wut u got?

Marines?
By lategame, though Marines are still useful, they cannot be played en masse the same way they are played by midgame since Infestors' Fungal Growths literally stop them dead. Marines would do fine against Broodlords on their own, but unfortunately Infestor support prevents them from ever reaching Broodlords, not to mention the Broodlings swarm that immediately spawns to surround them should they attempt to close the distance with Broodlords.

Thors?
Talked about them above.

Vikings?
Possible tech switch problem aside, in the end Vikings are simply not enough against Corruptors/Infestors. Even with the best splitting in the world (humanly speaking, I mean), Vikings inevitably tend to clump up when attacking, which means Fungal Growths will catch at least some of them, and then they will be food for Corruptors / Infested Terrans / more Fungals. Basically, Fungal Growth prevents Vikings to use their strength which is their long range; because speaking of values, it is not hard to see that the Corruptor does better in the toughness department (200 hps vs 125, 2 native armor vs 0).

Flying Banelings—I mean, Ravens?
So, the Raven—this “amazing unit of the future” which, strangely enough, is seldom seen outside of mirrors. For those who read those forums, you will always see that Raven guy who comes and teaches Terrans that “they bank 3k gas by lategame anyway,” so why not use that amazing HSM thing which will blow up your opponent's army (read: provided he's stupid enough not to micro his units[/strike)? Though you sometimes see Ravens in lategame TvZ play (don't know if Beastyqt still plays them sometimes, but this was one of the few players I saw using them; TLO was using them too), there are obvious and blatant issues which make it very hard to use them on a consistent basis.

Time
Remember the part above about Terrans having the slowest production? Typically, when playing Marine/Tanks/Medivacs in midgame, Terrans will enter lategame with one Reactor Starport—maybe with 2 Starports if you have spared resources and scout the Broodlords transition. It means that to build your Raven fleet, you will have to build several Starports with Lab attached, all while holding your line (because the Zerg player will try to break your line with his Broodlords), then research HSM and Corvid Reactor, then build Ravens, then wait 90 sec for them to have enough energy to launch a single HSM.

Now compare to Ghosts: they only require a Ghost Academy (40 sec) and Tech Labs on Barracks you already have, and depending on whether or not you have Moebius Reactor they come with 2 or 3 Snipes ready (i. e. they can be useful as soon as they spawn, not at T+90s).

What this means is that you can't really transition right away into Ravens off a standard Marines/Tank/Medivac midgame (even a mech midgame will seldom have more than 2 Starports, but they may have a Lab, so it could be a little bit easier for mech players); as costly and time-consuming as they are, in a standard game they're only viable in split map scenarii (or maybe past 4 bases for mech players who planned for a Raven transition). But then you run into the next issue:

HSM range

HSM range = 6
Fungal Growth range = 9

This simple fact makes it very difficult to use Ravens more than once, and this is why you see some people call them “flying Banelings”. Each time one of your Ravens moves forward to launch a HSM, he is at risk, because he enters the Zerg anti-air zone which is 9 range around the Infestors position. And 200 gas for possibly a single Missile which is not even guaranteed to hit a clump of units (remember: against HSM, Zerg players can still micro/spread their units) is simply too much.

So, aside from the infrastructure/time problem, the main, critical issue with Ravens is that they simply lose the caster war. Both Infestors and High Templars are able to outrange Ravens with deadly spells which kills them in some way. And this is a very serious problem, because on every map resources are limited: at some point, you must trade cost-efficiently or you will simply end up losing the split map scenario.

BattleCruisers?
Corruptors + Fungal Growth (and even Neural Parasite). Enough said. Yes, I did see this very nice Polt vs [don't remember the Zerg, maybe an IM player] ladder game @ Shattered Temple, but he could probably have won with mass SCVs, and anyway Ghosts would have netted him the kill earlier and more efficiently.

So… Ghosts.

First, we need to dismiss the idea that Ghosts are an auto-win button against lategame Zerg. This is simply false. As proven in the Fin/fOrGG vs Leenock game @ Daybreak in GSL Code S Ro32, you have to carefully manage your Ghost squad, else one bad Fungal Growth goes through and you're in deep trouble. Ghosts have 100 hit points, so they're frail units for their high cost—which is fine given their potential, but I'm merely reminding you that Ghosts are neither immortal nor invincible. They take a lot of micro to use, and the more Broodlords there is, the harder it becomes to manage your Ghost squad.

I'm also tired to hear that “Ghosts hard-counter tier3 Zerg”. This is not true. Immortals hard-counter Siege Tanks. The truth is Ghosts are a soft-counter: “Enough Ghosts with enough energy and careful micro are able to deal efficiently with Zerg tier3.” Which is very different from the usual “trololol Ghost auto-win button eznb” that you sometimes read on Live Report threads. As a Terran player, I say to Zerg players who are not convinced by this to play Terran against their own race (offracing against your own race really is a good experience anyway). You will quickly notice how fast your Ghosts fall each time you mismicro them. You will see that it takes a lot of resources and time to bank enough energy to be able to snipe a lot of Broodlords (or Ultralisks) and EMP Infestors. I mean, each time I enter lategame against Zerg, my purpose is to get this Ghost squad, but I can tell you it simply looks much easier when Mvp does it. Watching GSL, you may say “lol Ghost ez,” but then you can try it, even in a Unit test map, and you will see how hard it is to pull off, and how hard you will actually fail in a real game, desperately trying to micro your Ghost in a Broodlings sea while Broodlords relentlessly rain down death on your position.

Are Ghosts too efficient against Ultralisks? The thing is, a lot of Zerg players (including progamers) simply have a terrible Ultralisks use, making either too much of them (i. e. not enough support) or sending them to death in heavily fortified positions and then complaining about them being “horrible” or something. Like Broodlords, Ultralisks need support (Banelings and/or Infestors, and most importantly Zerglings) to do their job—but anyway, in the end, you likely won't win a split map scenario (and I'm talking about real split map, not 4/5 bases vs 3/4) against Terran with only Ultralisks, simply because, well, all melee units can be defended quite easily using chokes and mass ranged units behind defences; whether death comes from Snipes or something else is irrelevant at this point, I think you simply have to transition to Broodlords in a split map scenario, just as Protosses simply cannot afford to keep running on pure Blink Stalkers + Colossi against a mass Broodlords/Infestors/Spines split map scenario. I know, Ultralisks are tier3 while Blink Stalkers are not; still, regardless of tiers, there simply is some point beyond which some compositions are no more playable in some scenarii. For Ultralisks, the reason is quite self-explanatory: ranged units (especially air ones) get exponentially better while ground melee units do not (partly due to collision size issues).

So basically, when looking at Ghosts vs Ultralisks skirmishes, you have to wonder if using Ultralisks was the right thing to do given the state of the game, i. e. if the Terran had enough time to bank full energy on 20+ Ghosts, it was probably not a good choice anyway to head this way. Ultralisks' effectiveness simply starts decreasing beyond some point. While they're viable at the beginning of the late game, I'm not convinced about their uses in split map scenarii in which both players are allowed to bank mass resources.

Killing Infestors with 2 Snipes, down to 3, is basically irrelevant since Infestors will safely stand behind Broodlords if you can no longer kill them as fast and efficiently as now. I mean, even with the current Snipe, facing 15+ Broodlords with Infestor (and Overseers!) support is still a challenge even for the best players in the world—so how are Terrans supposed to deal with this if this silly change goes through? As stated above, even tech switch problems aside, Vikings, Thors and Ravens all have obvious problems. Sniping is a bit like a race against the clock anyway, since the longer your Ghosts take to kill Broodlords, the more Broodlords, Broodlings and your own Siege Tanks hurt them, so going up to 10 hits from 6 is simply stupid. Once again, even with the current Snipe, a lot of Terrans have difficulties in late game, because as stated above managing your Ghost squad is not easy at all—even pros fail it sometimes, so how are people with only two arms supposed to deal with this? And for people who will answer “don't let this happen,” do you realize how stupid it would be if one race had close to no chance by late game against some armies? All races should have fair chances to win by lategame, even against “the ultimate army”. This Snipe change simply means that Zergs will now be able to turtle into 20+ Broodlords with Corruptors/Infestors support, and then laugh at you because you won't have any efficient tool to deal with this.

On February 14 2012 13:04 vVv Gaming wrote:
Does anyone know when ladder will reset and when it does will it implement this?

On February 14 2012 12:23 mlspmatt wrote:

First of all, Terrans are not going to invest in BC tech to make just one round of them. There will come a time when Terran needs to use them as part of their remax army, then they are stuck waiting for them to build while their base is being torn apart, or they engage and lose their entire army.

Secondly you pawned off the Stalker issue by saying "Yes, some damage will come from storms and feedback on the BCs, yes some stalkers will take them down"this is what people say when they have no ligitimate response. They pawn it off as no big deal to minimize its importance, when it is the core of the issue. I didn't bring up fedback or storms in my earlier comment. I didn't need to, the Stalkers alone prove the point.

There has to be a reason to spend all those resources on BC's and the tech required. There has to be an advantage gained somewhere or it's not worth the investment. You've not yet made a single point as to what advantage the BC's offer. They don't control any space with range 6. Sure, they'll kill a few extra Zealots while your bio army kites, but at the same time the stalkers are killing them. So I, the terran, killed a few extra Zealots with my BC's and your Stalkers killed my BC's. I think Protoss wins that one.

You also added that BC's are just an example, and then don't suggest what unit exactley terrans should add that helps them. Thors? Ravens? What unit exactley is going to help Terran so much that it's better than the units that Terran has already invested in and upgraded?

And it's not enough to suggest units without saying HOW exactley they are going to help, and if they are better than what terran already has. Otherwise your just "Throwing it out there" with little or no thought behind it and it's not worth much debate.

On February 14 2012 13:07 Fencer710 wrote:

Holy crap, amazing post. In my opinion, probably worth it's own thread on this site.

On February 14 2012 13:53 xUnSeEnx wrote:
Storm from toss does something like 150 damage, which basically melts marines and marauders and can easily be cleaned up by a collosus.