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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 14 2012 06:36 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:30 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:27 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:24 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:08 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:04 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 04:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing.
For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right?
At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)...
You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice. What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up. And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs. The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming. Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons. Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon) 1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop. 2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind. You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes. The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point? I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom. But does HSM works against Ultra? And if not, what do you propose Terran should do with ultra switch? HSM doesn't, but auto-turret walls with marine/tank support do pretty well, you can actually dump auto-turrets to create chokes. With building armor upgraded they do hilariously well at slowing down the zerg ground army and getting a few extra tank volleys off. The ultras can kill the turrets in about 5-10 seconds, but that extra time with the huge DPS of the terran ground army is astounding. Plus, auto-turrets last like... 4 minutes with the upgrade, and they do decent damage. Just create a wall to block off the ultras and lings from reaching your siege tanks, and make a few marauders or thors (thors are fantastic vs. ultras, especially with strike cannon, and zerg doesn't have an anti-caster unit). Great, now we are expected to deals with ultras with... auto-turrets, now that's the plan all terrans can get behind, terrific. You misunderstand: I wasn't telling you that you have to do it, obviously you could make marauders, or any number of other things. I was suggesting a way that ravens could help significantly against ultras, that most people don't try. I have seen a few games where it was done, and it seemed pretty effective in combination with good army positioning. Drop 12 turrets off of 6 ravens and create walls, and laugh as the lings and ultras can't even reach your marines and tanks. I just don't understand why zergs could not deal with late game ghost with infested terrans or any other obsolete strategy, no snipe had to be nerfed, strange. Because the Ghost single handedly countered their every late game option. Go for infestors get ghosts, Ultras? Get ghosts! BL's? GHOSTS! I think Blizz went a bit over the top with the amount of damage the nerfed. but something clearly needed to be done, one race shouldn't have a 1 unit counter to another races every late game option.
But you see, Zergs deny the very arguments that infestor/broodlord/corruptor is unbeatable without ghosts by saying terrans just need to experiment more, you cannot justly claim that something is imbalanced (ghosts) and should be nerfed, while, at the same time, rejecting others arguments saying you can't say something is imbalanced (bl/infestors/cor), that would be hypocritical.
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On February 14 2012 05:58 Reborn8u wrote:
Also, this may sound a bit weird, but I think creep tumors need a nerf, they are too much of a free buff in terms of mobility and vision. Zergs don't even have to use thier overlords effectively for vision and creep spread becasue tumors are just so much better in every way, they are invis, free, and make about as much creep as a hatchery. I realize that inject and creep have a lot of management, which makes the skill ceiling very high, but the other races just don't have anything that compares in terms of skill ceiling => reward, imho. Creep tumors are just so much reward for zero risk, make them use the overlords, I say.
You underestimate the APM required to creep constantly, and efficiently, throughout the game, especially a long one. Even the pros neglect their tumours after 30 minutes or so. AFAIC, anything APM intensive that allows players to perform better than their opponent (most notably micro, but including creeping) should stay in the game and be encouraged.
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Just read that Blizz isn't going to have a PTR for 1.4.3
I don't know if it's been brought up yet but that seems like a very bad idea.
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On February 14 2012 07:16 Vindicare605 wrote:
Just read that Blizz isn't going to have a PTR for 1.4.3
I don't know if it's been brought up yet but that seems like a very bad idea.
Maybe they want to make some changes to the patches before a PTR ?
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juicyjames
United States3815 Posts
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=17#330
On February 13 2012 12:16 Kaivax, Community Manager wrote:
We have decided that, at this time, we will not be operating a public test realm for the 1.4.3 patch.
I have edited the previous post by Aldrexus in this thread to reflect that fact.
We apologize for the confusion created on this subject. Thank you for the excellent feedback on the many other topics that have come up in this thread.
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I actually think they don't doing a PTR for the patch mean they're remaining it.
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Well atleast now we dont have to worry about immvp winning another gsl or lots of tvt matches since most terran will probably die to zerg without snipes.
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What does 25 +25 psionic mean?
50 damage to psionic units? and 25 to all others?
Sorry if this was already covered...
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Snipe does 50 dmg to high templar and infestor
25 dmg to pretty much every other light unit.
I think Blizzard messed up. A massive nerf would've been much better >>
Think about this. Snipe doesn't even kill one marine, zergling, baneling anymore. There goes ghost expand (which was gaining a bit of popularity in KR ladder TvT)
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On February 14 2012 07:55 Ktk wrote:
Snipe does 50 dmg to high templar and infestor
and Queens
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On February 14 2012 00:17 jupiter6 wrote:
more hard-counter and less general purpose units, what a shitty direction in balancing
Wow, well said. This is exactly what's going on.
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On February 14 2012 08:14 DaemonX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 00:17 jupiter6 wrote:
more hard-counter and less general purpose units, what a shitty direction in balancing Wow, well said. This is exactly what's going on.
^^ indeed...
"we are unhappy with terran underperforming in the lower skill leagues. we feel it's because simpleton terran players are too simple, and they can't make the units we want them too. therefore after much consideration we have removed marine ability to shoot air units, and added a new unit to the barracks called green beret with same stats as marine but they can shoot air instead of ground! we hope that makes it more simple for the simpleton terran players who are failing in lower leagues"
:D
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On February 14 2012 07:20 juicyjames wrote:http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=17#330Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 12:16 Kaivax, Community Manager wrote:
We have decided that, at this time, we will not be operating a public test realm for the 1.4.3 patch.
I have edited the previous post by Aldrexus in this thread to reflect that fact.
We apologize for the confusion created on this subject. Thank you for the excellent feedback on the many other topics that have come up in this thread.
Does that mean they wont test the patch on the PTR at all or just not right now?
Because if its the former i would call it a truly terrible decision, and not understandable at all especially with all the discussion going on cosidering the snipe change.
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On February 14 2012 06:50 Remi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:36 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:30 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:27 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:24 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:08 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:04 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 04:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:
[quote]
What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up.
And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs.
The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming.
Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons.
Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon) 1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop. 2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind. You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes. The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point? I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom. But does HSM works against Ultra? And if not, what do you propose Terran should do with ultra switch? HSM doesn't, but auto-turret walls with marine/tank support do pretty well, you can actually dump auto-turrets to create chokes. With building armor upgraded they do hilariously well at slowing down the zerg ground army and getting a few extra tank volleys off. The ultras can kill the turrets in about 5-10 seconds, but that extra time with the huge DPS of the terran ground army is astounding. Plus, auto-turrets last like... 4 minutes with the upgrade, and they do decent damage. Just create a wall to block off the ultras and lings from reaching your siege tanks, and make a few marauders or thors (thors are fantastic vs. ultras, especially with strike cannon, and zerg doesn't have an anti-caster unit). Great, now we are expected to deals with ultras with... auto-turrets, now that's the plan all terrans can get behind, terrific. You misunderstand: I wasn't telling you that you have to do it, obviously you could make marauders, or any number of other things. I was suggesting a way that ravens could help significantly against ultras, that most people don't try. I have seen a few games where it was done, and it seemed pretty effective in combination with good army positioning. Drop 12 turrets off of 6 ravens and create walls, and laugh as the lings and ultras can't even reach your marines and tanks. I just don't understand why zergs could not deal with late game ghost with infested terrans or any other obsolete strategy, no snipe had to be nerfed, strange. Because the Ghost single handedly countered their every late game option. Go for infestors get ghosts, Ultras? Get ghosts! BL's? GHOSTS! I think Blizz went a bit over the top with the amount of damage the nerfed. but something clearly needed to be done, one race shouldn't have a 1 unit counter to another races every late game option. But you see, Zergs deny the very arguments that infestor/broodlord/corruptor is unbeatable without ghosts by saying terrans just need to experiment more, you cannot justly claim that something is imbalanced (ghosts) and should be nerfed, while, at the same time, rejecting others arguments saying you can't say something is imbalanced (bl/infestors/cor), that would be hypocritical.
Terran have basically admitted that they stopped looking for alternate methods when they discovered the ghost could do it. There was some experimentation going on with thors and vikings etc, and then snipe was provided as the answer and everyone went 'well, that's that then' and when they lose the thought is never' is there a different way of doing this?' instead the answer is either 'get a few more ghosts' or 'control my ghosts better'.
The Terran answer is always can I fix this by just playing better? before they even begin looking into other options. Take TvP. Right now the crying is that they lose in late game, and what are we seeing done to try and fix this? Fuck all. They are still in 'control better' stage. There is no reason that late game Terran couldn't setup a BC tech switch, they get the air attack upgrade early for vikings anyway, and they can keep their army the same size, just when they sack 8 scv's queue a BC. If you're telling me Yamoto on colossus and then a 3 attack BC floating over the battle field isn't going to make a difference I'll call you a crazy person. And you can just dump it there while you micro your actual army. Who cares if it dies? The Yamoto alone makes it worth it. If you've got air armour then the damn thing has 550hp and 6 armour! That's an awful lot of stalker hits it can soak up vs a zealot heavy stalker ball.
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On February 14 2012 10:03 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:50 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:36 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:30 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:27 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:24 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:08 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:04 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 04:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop.
2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind. You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes. The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point? I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom. But does HSM works against Ultra? And if not, what do you propose Terran should do with ultra switch? HSM doesn't, but auto-turret walls with marine/tank support do pretty well, you can actually dump auto-turrets to create chokes. With building armor upgraded they do hilariously well at slowing down the zerg ground army and getting a few extra tank volleys off. The ultras can kill the turrets in about 5-10 seconds, but that extra time with the huge DPS of the terran ground army is astounding. Plus, auto-turrets last like... 4 minutes with the upgrade, and they do decent damage. Just create a wall to block off the ultras and lings from reaching your siege tanks, and make a few marauders or thors (thors are fantastic vs. ultras, especially with strike cannon, and zerg doesn't have an anti-caster unit). Great, now we are expected to deals with ultras with... auto-turrets, now that's the plan all terrans can get behind, terrific. You misunderstand: I wasn't telling you that you have to do it, obviously you could make marauders, or any number of other things. I was suggesting a way that ravens could help significantly against ultras, that most people don't try. I have seen a few games where it was done, and it seemed pretty effective in combination with good army positioning. Drop 12 turrets off of 6 ravens and create walls, and laugh as the lings and ultras can't even reach your marines and tanks. I just don't understand why zergs could not deal with late game ghost with infested terrans or any other obsolete strategy, no snipe had to be nerfed, strange. Because the Ghost single handedly countered their every late game option. Go for infestors get ghosts, Ultras? Get ghosts! BL's? GHOSTS! I think Blizz went a bit over the top with the amount of damage the nerfed. but something clearly needed to be done, one race shouldn't have a 1 unit counter to another races every late game option. But you see, Zergs deny the very arguments that infestor/broodlord/corruptor is unbeatable without ghosts by saying terrans just need to experiment more, you cannot justly claim that something is imbalanced (ghosts) and should be nerfed, while, at the same time, rejecting others arguments saying you can't say something is imbalanced (bl/infestors/cor), that would be hypocritical. Terran have basically admitted that they stopped looking for alternate methods when they discovered the ghost could do it. There was some experimentation going on with thors and vikings etc, and then snipe was provided as the answer and everyone went 'well, that's that then' and when they lose the thought is never' is there a different way of doing this?' instead the answer is either 'get a few more ghosts' or 'control my ghosts better'. The Terran answer is always can I fix this by just playing better? before they even begin looking into other options. Take TvP. Right now the crying is that they lose in late game, and what are we seeing done to try and fix this? Fuck all. They are still in 'control better' stage. There is no reason that late game Terran couldn't setup a BC tech switch, they get the air attack upgrade early for vikings anyway, and they can keep their army the same size, just when they sack 8 scv's. If you're telling me Yamoto on colossus and then a 3 attack BC floating over the battle field isn't going to make a difference I'll call you a crazy person. And you can just dump it there while you micro your actual army. Who cares if it dies? The Yamoto alone makes it worth it. If you've got air armour then the damn thing has 550hp and 6 armour! That's an awful lot of stalker hits it can soak up vs a zealot heavy stalker ball.
Can you stop insult peoples intelligence by implying that a BC tech switch is a better form of gameplay compared to actually playing better?
Jesus christ, we've been over this. BCs are shit in TvP. Deal with it.
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On February 14 2012 10:07 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:03 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 06:50 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:36 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:30 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:27 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:24 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:08 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:04 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:
[quote]
You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes.
The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point?
I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom. But does HSM works against Ultra? And if not, what do you propose Terran should do with ultra switch? HSM doesn't, but auto-turret walls with marine/tank support do pretty well, you can actually dump auto-turrets to create chokes. With building armor upgraded they do hilariously well at slowing down the zerg ground army and getting a few extra tank volleys off. The ultras can kill the turrets in about 5-10 seconds, but that extra time with the huge DPS of the terran ground army is astounding. Plus, auto-turrets last like... 4 minutes with the upgrade, and they do decent damage. Just create a wall to block off the ultras and lings from reaching your siege tanks, and make a few marauders or thors (thors are fantastic vs. ultras, especially with strike cannon, and zerg doesn't have an anti-caster unit). Great, now we are expected to deals with ultras with... auto-turrets, now that's the plan all terrans can get behind, terrific. You misunderstand: I wasn't telling you that you have to do it, obviously you could make marauders, or any number of other things. I was suggesting a way that ravens could help significantly against ultras, that most people don't try. I have seen a few games where it was done, and it seemed pretty effective in combination with good army positioning. Drop 12 turrets off of 6 ravens and create walls, and laugh as the lings and ultras can't even reach your marines and tanks. I just don't understand why zergs could not deal with late game ghost with infested terrans or any other obsolete strategy, no snipe had to be nerfed, strange. Because the Ghost single handedly countered their every late game option. Go for infestors get ghosts, Ultras? Get ghosts! BL's? GHOSTS! I think Blizz went a bit over the top with the amount of damage the nerfed. but something clearly needed to be done, one race shouldn't have a 1 unit counter to another races every late game option. But you see, Zergs deny the very arguments that infestor/broodlord/corruptor is unbeatable without ghosts by saying terrans just need to experiment more, you cannot justly claim that something is imbalanced (ghosts) and should be nerfed, while, at the same time, rejecting others arguments saying you can't say something is imbalanced (bl/infestors/cor), that would be hypocritical. Terran have basically admitted that they stopped looking for alternate methods when they discovered the ghost could do it. There was some experimentation going on with thors and vikings etc, and then snipe was provided as the answer and everyone went 'well, that's that then' and when they lose the thought is never' is there a different way of doing this?' instead the answer is either 'get a few more ghosts' or 'control my ghosts better'. The Terran answer is always can I fix this by just playing better? before they even begin looking into other options. Take TvP. Right now the crying is that they lose in late game, and what are we seeing done to try and fix this? Fuck all. They are still in 'control better' stage. There is no reason that late game Terran couldn't setup a BC tech switch, they get the air attack upgrade early for vikings anyway, and they can keep their army the same size, just when they sack 8 scv's. If you're telling me Yamoto on colossus and then a 3 attack BC floating over the battle field isn't going to make a difference I'll call you a crazy person. And you can just dump it there while you micro your actual army. Who cares if it dies? The Yamoto alone makes it worth it. If you've got air armour then the damn thing has 550hp and 6 armour! That's an awful lot of stalker hits it can soak up vs a zealot heavy stalker ball. Can you stop insult peoples intelligence by implying that a BC tech switch is a better form of gameplay compared to actually playing better? Jesus christ, we've been over this. BCs are shit in TvP. Deal with it.
Cool, go ahead and sack 8 SCVs and build 4 more marauders like that'll make a fucking difference.
Or maybe an extra 8 marines.
It won't do shit to a Protoss like Parting who is setup correctly at end game with HT and colossus.
Bank a few more thousand gas and wonder why your tier 1 & 2 army can't get the job done.
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BC don't work well vs HTs with feedback... If ghost snipe was nerfed due to it counter both bl and ultras. Why can HTs counter Thors and BC and infantry...
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On February 14 2012 10:15 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:07 Dalavita wrote:On February 14 2012 10:03 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 06:50 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:36 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:30 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:27 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:24 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:08 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:04 Remi wrote:
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But does HSM works against Ultra? And if not, what do you propose Terran should do with ultra switch? HSM doesn't, but auto-turret walls with marine/tank support do pretty well, you can actually dump auto-turrets to create chokes. With building armor upgraded they do hilariously well at slowing down the zerg ground army and getting a few extra tank volleys off. The ultras can kill the turrets in about 5-10 seconds, but that extra time with the huge DPS of the terran ground army is astounding. Plus, auto-turrets last like... 4 minutes with the upgrade, and they do decent damage. Just create a wall to block off the ultras and lings from reaching your siege tanks, and make a few marauders or thors (thors are fantastic vs. ultras, especially with strike cannon, and zerg doesn't have an anti-caster unit). Great, now we are expected to deals with ultras with... auto-turrets, now that's the plan all terrans can get behind, terrific. You misunderstand: I wasn't telling you that you have to do it, obviously you could make marauders, or any number of other things. I was suggesting a way that ravens could help significantly against ultras, that most people don't try. I have seen a few games where it was done, and it seemed pretty effective in combination with good army positioning. Drop 12 turrets off of 6 ravens and create walls, and laugh as the lings and ultras can't even reach your marines and tanks. I just don't understand why zergs could not deal with late game ghost with infested terrans or any other obsolete strategy, no snipe had to be nerfed, strange. Because the Ghost single handedly countered their every late game option. Go for infestors get ghosts, Ultras? Get ghosts! BL's? GHOSTS! I think Blizz went a bit over the top with the amount of damage the nerfed. but something clearly needed to be done, one race shouldn't have a 1 unit counter to another races every late game option. But you see, Zergs deny the very arguments that infestor/broodlord/corruptor is unbeatable without ghosts by saying terrans just need to experiment more, you cannot justly claim that something is imbalanced (ghosts) and should be nerfed, while, at the same time, rejecting others arguments saying you can't say something is imbalanced (bl/infestors/cor), that would be hypocritical. Terran have basically admitted that they stopped looking for alternate methods when they discovered the ghost could do it. There was some experimentation going on with thors and vikings etc, and then snipe was provided as the answer and everyone went 'well, that's that then' and when they lose the thought is never' is there a different way of doing this?' instead the answer is either 'get a few more ghosts' or 'control my ghosts better'. The Terran answer is always can I fix this by just playing better? before they even begin looking into other options. Take TvP. Right now the crying is that they lose in late game, and what are we seeing done to try and fix this? Fuck all. They are still in 'control better' stage. There is no reason that late game Terran couldn't setup a BC tech switch, they get the air attack upgrade early for vikings anyway, and they can keep their army the same size, just when they sack 8 scv's. If you're telling me Yamoto on colossus and then a 3 attack BC floating over the battle field isn't going to make a difference I'll call you a crazy person. And you can just dump it there while you micro your actual army. Who cares if it dies? The Yamoto alone makes it worth it. If you've got air armour then the damn thing has 550hp and 6 armour! That's an awful lot of stalker hits it can soak up vs a zealot heavy stalker ball. Can you stop insult peoples intelligence by implying that a BC tech switch is a better form of gameplay compared to actually playing better? Jesus christ, we've been over this. BCs are shit in TvP. Deal with it. Cool, go ahead and sack 8 SCVs and build 4 more marauders like that'll make a fucking difference. Or maybe an extra 8 marines. It won't do shit to a Protoss like Parting who is setup correctly at end game with HT and colossus. Bank a few more thousand gas and wonder why your tier 1 & 2 army can't get the job done.
BC tech switching only works in the really big Maps and on at least 4-5 Bases . Even then BC's aren't that great tbh better then Bio ? Maybe good enough to justify the cost ? Definitly not , they are not Broodlords that force special counters .
And even with BC's the majority of your army will allways be Bio else you'll get rolled on the ground . Then the Toss just pulls back or runs everything into your production . And you know what you can't wiith BC's ? Chase something well actually chase anything that isn't a Thor/Broodlord. Every units Toss builds is signicantly faster then BC's
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On February 14 2012 10:15 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 10:07 Dalavita wrote:On February 14 2012 10:03 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 06:50 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:36 Necro)Phagist( wrote:On February 14 2012 06:30 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:27 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:24 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:08 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:04 Remi wrote:
[quote]
But does HSM works against Ultra? And if not, what do you propose Terran should do with ultra switch? HSM doesn't, but auto-turret walls with marine/tank support do pretty well, you can actually dump auto-turrets to create chokes. With building armor upgraded they do hilariously well at slowing down the zerg ground army and getting a few extra tank volleys off. The ultras can kill the turrets in about 5-10 seconds, but that extra time with the huge DPS of the terran ground army is astounding. Plus, auto-turrets last like... 4 minutes with the upgrade, and they do decent damage. Just create a wall to block off the ultras and lings from reaching your siege tanks, and make a few marauders or thors (thors are fantastic vs. ultras, especially with strike cannon, and zerg doesn't have an anti-caster unit). Great, now we are expected to deals with ultras with... auto-turrets, now that's the plan all terrans can get behind, terrific. You misunderstand: I wasn't telling you that you have to do it, obviously you could make marauders, or any number of other things. I was suggesting a way that ravens could help significantly against ultras, that most people don't try. I have seen a few games where it was done, and it seemed pretty effective in combination with good army positioning. Drop 12 turrets off of 6 ravens and create walls, and laugh as the lings and ultras can't even reach your marines and tanks. I just don't understand why zergs could not deal with late game ghost with infested terrans or any other obsolete strategy, no snipe had to be nerfed, strange. Because the Ghost single handedly countered their every late game option. Go for infestors get ghosts, Ultras? Get ghosts! BL's? GHOSTS! I think Blizz went a bit over the top with the amount of damage the nerfed. but something clearly needed to be done, one race shouldn't have a 1 unit counter to another races every late game option. But you see, Zergs deny the very arguments that infestor/broodlord/corruptor is unbeatable without ghosts by saying terrans just need to experiment more, you cannot justly claim that something is imbalanced (ghosts) and should be nerfed, while, at the same time, rejecting others arguments saying you can't say something is imbalanced (bl/infestors/cor), that would be hypocritical. Terran have basically admitted that they stopped looking for alternate methods when they discovered the ghost could do it. There was some experimentation going on with thors and vikings etc, and then snipe was provided as the answer and everyone went 'well, that's that then' and when they lose the thought is never' is there a different way of doing this?' instead the answer is either 'get a few more ghosts' or 'control my ghosts better'. The Terran answer is always can I fix this by just playing better? before they even begin looking into other options. Take TvP. Right now the crying is that they lose in late game, and what are we seeing done to try and fix this? Fuck all. They are still in 'control better' stage. There is no reason that late game Terran couldn't setup a BC tech switch, they get the air attack upgrade early for vikings anyway, and they can keep their army the same size, just when they sack 8 scv's. If you're telling me Yamoto on colossus and then a 3 attack BC floating over the battle field isn't going to make a difference I'll call you a crazy person. And you can just dump it there while you micro your actual army. Who cares if it dies? The Yamoto alone makes it worth it. If you've got air armour then the damn thing has 550hp and 6 armour! That's an awful lot of stalker hits it can soak up vs a zealot heavy stalker ball. Can you stop insult peoples intelligence by implying that a BC tech switch is a better form of gameplay compared to actually playing better? Jesus christ, we've been over this. BCs are shit in TvP. Deal with it. Cool, go ahead and sack 8 SCVs and build 4 more marauders like that'll make a fucking difference. Or maybe an extra 8 marines. It won't do shit to a Protoss like Parting who is setup correctly at end game with HT and colossus. Bank a few more thousand gas and wonder why your tier 1 & 2 army can't get the job done.
so... did parting personally tell you that he's scared of the terran battlecruiser switch?
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EPT
