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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 14 2012 05:03 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:43 Snowbear wrote:On February 14 2012 04:41 nimdil wrote:
Mule's should be removed. Call Down SCV would be good enough of a bonus.
How can you even think something like this. Terrans are NOT dominating at all, especially not in EU and NA. Imagine mules (worth 6 scvs) being replaced by 1 scv. I really don't understand how you dare to say something like this. You act like terran is an imbalanced race, and meanwhile it actually isnt. facepalm... he obviously means to call down equivalent amount of scvs for a mule ....
Still Chronoboost and Larva Inject ( which both kinda are the Toss/Zerg equivalent ) would be soooo much better since they don't exclusively work on Economy. That would make Terrans economy management even worse .
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On February 14 2012 04:43 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:41 nimdil wrote:
Mule's should be removed. Call Down SCV would be good enough of a bonus.
How can you even think something like this. Terrans are NOT dominating at all, especially not in EU and NA. Imagine mules (worth 6 scvs) being replaced by 1 scv. I really don't understand how you dare to say something like this. You act like terran is an imbalanced race, and meanwhile it actually isnt.
Think of it like this:
On blue minerals, a mule is worth 6 scvs...
On rich minerals, a mule is worth 4.29 scvs...
I don't think that's fair, and the reason is:
Protoss chronoboost doesn't care where you chronoboost probes, whether at blue or rich...
Zerg larva doesn't care whether those extra drones you make go to blue or rich...
But Mule's do care, in fact, they will make themselves less efficient if you cast them on rich minerals...
 have fun terran players!
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On February 14 2012 05:10 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:03 freetgy wrote:On February 14 2012 04:43 Snowbear wrote:On February 14 2012 04:41 nimdil wrote:
Mule's should be removed. Call Down SCV would be good enough of a bonus.
How can you even think something like this. Terrans are NOT dominating at all, especially not in EU and NA. Imagine mules (worth 6 scvs) being replaced by 1 scv. I really don't understand how you dare to say something like this. You act like terran is an imbalanced race, and meanwhile it actually isnt. facepalm... he obviously means to call down equivalent amount of scvs for a mule .... Still Chronoboost and Larva Inject ( which both kinda are the Toss/Zerg equivalent ) would be soooo much better since they don't exclusively work on Economy. That would make Terrans economy management even worse .
What? You get 6 scvs for FREE and you still complain?!
WTF, you will have full saturation on all bases after 500-600 energy and 0 scvs manually built from CC. Talk about heaven for Terran...
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Poland3748 Posts
On February 14 2012 04:43 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:41 nimdil wrote:
Mule's should be removed. Call Down SCV would be good enough of a bonus.
How can you even think something like this. Terrans are NOT dominating at all, especially not in EU and NA. Imagine mules (worth 6 scvs) being replaced by 1 scv. I really don't understand how you dare to say something like this. You act like terran is an imbalanced race, and meanwhile it actually isnt.
The mere fact that some feature is imbalanced does not have to show up on balance statistics. The single feature of a race may be very imbalanced in specific tactical situations which are generaly rare so they are under "within statistical error" radar. MULEs imbalance show up in all those rare situations when a player end up with nearly nothing except buildings. So protoss can build few probes at most at a time. Or even chrono boost them - big deal. However terran can call down half a dozen mules and bam! Instant income. Another situation is when terrans are just sacking their SCVs and still maintain their income. Other races don't have this option. Again - the situation when this difference affect a matchup is rare.
That said I don't think that terran after this change won't have a chance. On the other hand thing of possibilites to call down SCV anytime anywhere may be helpful and help make creative play. There may be some thinking around the idea but I definitely stay by my idea that MULEs should be kicked out.
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So is this patch getting implemented tomorrow?
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On February 14 2012 05:13 XiGua wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:10 s3rp wrote:On February 14 2012 05:03 freetgy wrote:On February 14 2012 04:43 Snowbear wrote:On February 14 2012 04:41 nimdil wrote:
Mule's should be removed. Call Down SCV would be good enough of a bonus.
How can you even think something like this. Terrans are NOT dominating at all, especially not in EU and NA. Imagine mules (worth 6 scvs) being replaced by 1 scv. I really don't understand how you dare to say something like this. You act like terran is an imbalanced race, and meanwhile it actually isnt. facepalm... he obviously means to call down equivalent amount of scvs for a mule .... Still Chronoboost and Larva Inject ( which both kinda are the Toss/Zerg equivalent ) would be soooo much better since they don't exclusively work on Economy. That would make Terrans economy management even worse . What? You get 6 scvs for FREE and you still complain?! WTF, you will have full saturation on all bases after 500-600 energy and 0 scvs manually built from CC. Talk about heaven for Terran...
But later on when you are saturared this does what ? Nothing unless you want to spam SCV's in battle for block stuff.
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Poland3748 Posts
On February 14 2012 05:03 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:43 Snowbear wrote:On February 14 2012 04:41 nimdil wrote:
Mule's should be removed. Call Down SCV would be good enough of a bonus.
How can you even think something like this. Terrans are NOT dominating at all, especially not in EU and NA. Imagine mules (worth 6 scvs) being replaced by 1 scv. I really don't understand how you dare to say something like this. You act like terran is an imbalanced race, and meanwhile it actually isnt. facepalm... he obviously means to call down equivalent amount of scvs for a mule ....
I was thinking more like 35 energy for 2 SCVs but I'm not sure whether the player should pay 100 minerals as well or not. Probably yes.
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On February 14 2012 05:17 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:03 freetgy wrote:On February 14 2012 04:43 Snowbear wrote:On February 14 2012 04:41 nimdil wrote:
Mule's should be removed. Call Down SCV would be good enough of a bonus.
How can you even think something like this. Terrans are NOT dominating at all, especially not in EU and NA. Imagine mules (worth 6 scvs) being replaced by 1 scv. I really don't understand how you dare to say something like this. You act like terran is an imbalanced race, and meanwhile it actually isnt. facepalm... he obviously means to call down equivalent amount of scvs for a mule .... I was thinking more like 35 energy for 2 SCVs but I'm not sure whether the player should pay 100 minerals as well or not. Probably yes.
And what do you think of chronoboosting the non-worker production / upgrades or saving larva and remaxing basically in seconds should that be removed as well or is this fine to you ?
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On February 14 2012 05:09 Absentia wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If Blizzard were to seriously consider addressing balance issues then they should really be looking at ways to weaken the terran early game and buff their late game. The proposed ghost change does nothing to remedy balance issues that exist but rather deepens the issues that do exist.
Late game TvZ is extremely difficult from the terran's perspective because of multiple reasons. It places an extremely high demand on multitasking (multipronged drops/nukes) and micro, (splitting/emping/sniping/focus firing/viking dancing etc) that are entirely necessary to succeed at higher levels of play. In this sense; does terran have more to do than the zerg late game in terms of multitasking and micro? Maybe or maybe not.
What terran inarguably does have greater difficulty than the zerg with in late game scenario's is adapting to compositions. The reasons for this should be obvious: zerg can produce units en masse extremely quickly from one core piece of infrastructure, (of course there are prerequisites but in late game scenarios this is rarely an issue). Terran's late game scouting is also arguably too weak to combat this problem. Despite the common conception that 'terrans can scan for unit compositions', scanning is rarely reliable or quick enough in determining a zerg's unit composition.
Obviously the ability to make huge tech transitions is a necessary feature of the zerg race both to make it distinct and to give the race late game strength.
One obvious response in terms of designing terran is to give them one core 'middle of the road' unit which is capable of handling zerg versatility and then supplement that unit with others which are more role specific. We can clearly see elements of this in the ghost which currently acts as the core, late game terran unit but which does not 'hard-counter' every single zerg unit that can be thrown at you. Sure it has greater strength against some units in isolation (broordlords, infestors) whilst remaining weaker to others, (banelings, ultralisks) but it does not really hard counter the zerg race by itself. One still needs vikings to deal with broodlord/infestor/corrupter and one still needs marauders to deal with ultra/ling/baneling/infestor. One still needs marines for drop harass and one still needs tanks to deal with banelings (roach/infestors too I guess). The glue of the terran late game however, seems to be the ghost.
My issue with the snipe nerf is that it is taking away the late game versatility of the ghost which, in my opinion, is fundamentally necessary for the success of the race in the late game. Put simply: terran NEEDS a strong, versatile unit that can somewhat deal with late game zerg tech switches. The key phrase here is 'late game'. Marines are also extremely versatile but they cannot deal with the particular late game tech switches (i.e. broodlord infestors or ultra/infestor/blings). There are people appealing to the Raven in this thread but do you seriously think Raven's are going to be an adequate response to late game tech switches. The youtube video of Morrow doesn't even show Leenock engaging with the typical infestor/broodlord/corrupter army; let alone showing how ravens could deal with an ultralisk switch.
Does snipe need a nerf? From my own experience I don't think so.
Late game TvZ at least appears more difficult for the terran than it is for the zerg for reasons I have alluded to, (micro/multitasking/adapting to unit compositions). However there will be terrans and (reasonable) zergs better than myself in agreement with a ghost/snipe nerf so the debate is obviously not closed. Regardless of whatever race you play or bias you have, I would hope that it is clear a nerf of this magnitude to the ghost is going to have a significant and negative impact on the terran late game. For the good of the game, we should universally oppose this change - at least in it's current state, (and obviously I, and others will oppose any change to snipe at all).
Some less detailed observations from a terran's perspective:
a) The lack of a change to TvP lategame is disappointing - especially when considering what I feel is an unnecesary nerf to ghosts, (a nerf to both TvP and TvZ lategames).
b) If Blizzard is serious about balancing the game, i'd really like them to take a look at the mule; perhaps by decreasing it's duration by 1 or 2 mining cycles or reducing how many minerals it mines each cycle. It could conceivably weaken a lot of terran all ins as well as their mid game timings (which is, judging by general consensus, where terran is strongest/too strong). This would obviously have knock on effects on terran's late game but at least then we might have a smaller 'gameplay area' which requires rebalancing, (rather than problems existing all the way from early game to late game).
I agree with the first part. I think the opposite is true of protoss: they need stronger openings but weaker late game splash damage.
I think it is even harder for protoss to adapt to the zerg composition as at least terran can use a marine base and build from there. But again, the protoss splash damage helps out here as storm can save the day against almost anything. I think the larva mechanic is just hard to balance from all points of view (including zerg).
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On February 14 2012 04:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:
[quote]
Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted.. Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense. Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it. The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos. Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack. And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army. Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing. For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right? At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)... You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice. What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up. And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs. The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming. Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons. Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon) 1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop. 2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind.
You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes.
The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point?
I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom.
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Poland3748 Posts
[QUOTE]On February 14 2012 05:19 s3rp wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 14 2012 05:15 nimdil wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 14 2012 04:43 Snowbear wrote:
[QUOTE]On February 14 2012 04:41 nimdil wrote:
Mule's should be removed. Call Down SCV would be good enough of a bonus.
[/QUOTE]
Another situation is when terrans are just sacking their SCVs and still maintain their income. Other races don't have this option. Again - the situation when this difference affect a matchup is rare.
[/QUOTE]
The Zerg saves up Larva the Toss can Chronoboost his production you want to remove that as well ? Mules and sacking workers are kinda of the equivivalent . You may not like this but you can't change it while leaving the other race mechanics alon.[/QUOTE]
Good point. Haven't thought of it this way even if I'm not really convinced. I have to do some thinking about it.
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Can't wait til next patch.
-Gold Minerals now yield the same amount as blue minerals for probes, scvs, and drones.
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On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted.. Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense. Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it. The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos. Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack. And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army. Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing. For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right? At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)... You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice. What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up. And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs. The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming. Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons. Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon) 1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop. 2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind. You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes. The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point? I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom.
It does if you don't get fungaled then you die pretty horribly.
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What if the purpose of the patch is to make people think differently on how to play terran.
Now, I am not saying that blizzard want's you to try hard as much as you can and get frustrated, just in time for HotS to come out, so you can jump over in the hope of something better, or am I.
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On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted.. Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense. Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it. The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos. Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack. And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army. Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing. For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right? At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)... You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice. What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up. And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs. The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming. Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons. Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon) 1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop. 2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind. You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes. The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point? I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom.
1. Ur most likely dead before u can get enough ravens.
2. Fungal, corruptors can kill them before they even get in range to do HSM.
3. Split BLs? It's actally possible. Just like zergs do in late game PvZ with BLs vs. Mothership.
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I would be willing to work with ravens HSM more if it had an increased range or something. At the moment I have only used it in TvT vs Vikings and thats about it. Mutas are too fast, and you can't get close enough when Infestors are out on the field. The biggest problems zerg have when fighting terran late game is making too many broodlords. You honestly don't need more than 6-8. Force the tanks to not be sieged and engage like you normally would. Ling bane infestor with broods is actually pretty gross at crushing the zerg army. Not to mention the zerg seems to be so terrified of attacking that they end up losing because of that fact.
Stephano vs kiwikaki where he archon toileted his entire army is a good example. He had that game won but sat and let kiwi get a ton of stuff after he was dead. I understand that there is a certain risk involved, but bad decision making shouldn't be brought into balance. You cant look at a 4 gate as bad because he waits until 12 minutes to attack. There is a window and I think that 80% of games with broodlords can be won if they simply are more aggressive with their attacking style.
I played zerg for quite a while, and I found that broodlords are almost a timing attack. They will eventually beat them if you give them the time. Even if you lose the broodlords, they are investing so much money into killing the BL if you mass ling and attack they will not be able to stop the lings that come even after the BL are dead. Also the reason we don't see a tech switch to ultra is because no one tries it. Honestly they just keep massing BL until they are at 12-16 and then when they lose them all, keep making them, or they simply stay on Muta too long. Mutas get beat after a certain point in time because marines are very cost effective against them in a straight up fight. The matchup is far from perfectly done, but if you watch Leenock or other high level zerg play like it was meant to, you really don't see the terran even come close to the zerg.
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I know XNC is going to be removed from the map pool, but once Terran got the gold for their 3rd and started dropping MULEs like no tomorrow, good luck . I have to agree with the MULE nerf, for that and other reasons. However, the Ghost nerf is just too extreme. Terran will be screwed late-game.
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On February 14 2012 05:23 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:09 Absentia wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If Blizzard were to seriously consider addressing balance issues then they should really be looking at ways to weaken the terran early game and buff their late game. The proposed ghost change does nothing to remedy balance issues that exist but rather deepens the issues that do exist.
Late game TvZ is extremely difficult from the terran's perspective because of multiple reasons. It places an extremely high demand on multitasking (multipronged drops/nukes) and micro, (splitting/emping/sniping/focus firing/viking dancing etc) that are entirely necessary to succeed at higher levels of play. In this sense; does terran have more to do than the zerg late game in terms of multitasking and micro? Maybe or maybe not.
What terran inarguably does have greater difficulty than the zerg with in late game scenario's is adapting to compositions. The reasons for this should be obvious: zerg can produce units en masse extremely quickly from one core piece of infrastructure, (of course there are prerequisites but in late game scenarios this is rarely an issue). Terran's late game scouting is also arguably too weak to combat this problem. Despite the common conception that 'terrans can scan for unit compositions', scanning is rarely reliable or quick enough in determining a zerg's unit composition.
Obviously the ability to make huge tech transitions is a necessary feature of the zerg race both to make it distinct and to give the race late game strength.
One obvious response in terms of designing terran is to give them one core 'middle of the road' unit which is capable of handling zerg versatility and then supplement that unit with others which are more role specific. We can clearly see elements of this in the ghost which currently acts as the core, late game terran unit but which does not 'hard-counter' every single zerg unit that can be thrown at you. Sure it has greater strength against some units in isolation (broordlords, infestors) whilst remaining weaker to others, (banelings, ultralisks) but it does not really hard counter the zerg race by itself. One still needs vikings to deal with broodlord/infestor/corrupter and one still needs marauders to deal with ultra/ling/baneling/infestor. One still needs marines for drop harass and one still needs tanks to deal with banelings (roach/infestors too I guess). The glue of the terran late game however, seems to be the ghost.
My issue with the snipe nerf is that it is taking away the late game versatility of the ghost which, in my opinion, is fundamentally necessary for the success of the race in the late game. Put simply: terran NEEDS a strong, versatile unit that can somewhat deal with late game zerg tech switches. The key phrase here is 'late game'. Marines are also extremely versatile but they cannot deal with the particular late game tech switches (i.e. broodlord infestors or ultra/infestor/blings). There are people appealing to the Raven in this thread but do you seriously think Raven's are going to be an adequate response to late game tech switches. The youtube video of Morrow doesn't even show Leenock engaging with the typical infestor/broodlord/corrupter army; let alone showing how ravens could deal with an ultralisk switch.
Does snipe need a nerf? From my own experience I don't think so.
Late game TvZ at least appears more difficult for the terran than it is for the zerg for reasons I have alluded to, (micro/multitasking/adapting to unit compositions). However there will be terrans and (reasonable) zergs better than myself in agreement with a ghost/snipe nerf so the debate is obviously not closed. Regardless of whatever race you play or bias you have, I would hope that it is clear a nerf of this magnitude to the ghost is going to have a significant and negative impact on the terran late game. For the good of the game, we should universally oppose this change - at least in it's current state, (and obviously I, and others will oppose any change to snipe at all).
Some less detailed observations from a terran's perspective:
a) The lack of a change to TvP lategame is disappointing - especially when considering what I feel is an unnecesary nerf to ghosts, (a nerf to both TvP and TvZ lategames).
b) If Blizzard is serious about balancing the game, i'd really like them to take a look at the mule; perhaps by decreasing it's duration by 1 or 2 mining cycles or reducing how many minerals it mines each cycle. It could conceivably weaken a lot of terran all ins as well as their mid game timings (which is, judging by general consensus, where terran is strongest/too strong). This would obviously have knock on effects on terran's late game but at least then we might have a smaller 'gameplay area' which requires rebalancing, (rather than problems existing all the way from early game to late game). I agree with the first part. I think the opposite is true of protoss: they need stronger openings but weaker late game splash damage. I think it is even harder for protoss to adapt to the zerg composition as at least terran can use a marine base and build from there. But again, the protoss splash damage helps out here as storm can save the day against almost anything. I think the larva mechanic is just hard to balance from all points of view (including zerg).
I agree with both posts, a 4 + base zerg with 4 + hatches than can pool up to ?17? larva becomes very powerful and difficult to balance, I would argue that this is the reason zerg armies are generally cost inefficnet and cant really ever stand toe to toe with an even supply Terran or Protoss Death ball, lest we be maxed with broodlord, infestor corruptor.
I do think that Larva inject and the max poolof a single hatchery are teh main reasons for this, I thought of how zerg would do if say Larava inject spawned 1 Larva every 15 seconds for 30 seconds vs now which is 4 larva after 40 seconds, overall a 33.33% nerf to how much Larva is generated by spawn larva, also a periodic spawn would smooth production out and make it less bursty (BOOM 7RR otw).
We then set a lower limit to the maximum amount of larva allowed to be pooled at a single hatchery, say 9 or around there.
after that Zerg wont become as exponentially more powerful in teh late game and as a result Zerg uits can recieve buffs to compensate the lower production rate and allowing them to be more supply and cost efficient.
Im absolutley terrible with the editor nor do I have teh time to really play with it in depth, so this will simply ahev to remain my theory 
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On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:
The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom.
You know, things do not become true just because you peremptorily say them without any argument. As stated in my first post in this thread, truth is HSM being range 6 means that you do risk your Raven each time you want to use it, because Fungal is range 9 and thus Infestors can trap and kill your Ravens. Besides, it takes 3 HSM (i. e. 3 Ravens, since one Raven can only launch one HSM at a given time) to kill a Broodlord, and since Protosses use Archons in Vortex Zergs understood that microing/splitting/unstacking Broodlords is not forbidden by law.
Ghosts work because they operate slightly outside of Infestors/Broodlords' area of control (9 / 9,5). Ravens need to move inside this zone (and they're even in the Corruptor range) to launch HSM, which is why their use is problematic.
And do not say that Terrans never tried it, Raven fleets do happen in some split map scenarii in mirrors, so Terrans know how much time, production facilities and resources it takes to build a Raven fleet, and how in the big battle Ravens still get destroyed regardless of how many PDD went up, simply because they have to move forward in front of Vikings to launch HSMs and thus get focused.
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EPT
