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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:02 jsdk wrote:On February 13 2012 21:57 Snowbear wrote:
[quote]
I agree with this. Every time terrans find out about something, it gets nerfed. I got the feeling that the raven will be the next nerf target. The side effect of balancing a complete race with two incomplete ones. so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...? Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted..
Give me a break.
Protoss always has 1-2 canons + HT + a bunch of units as a static defence at expos vs terran and you complain about making your already built cc into a splash damage defense building? I would like to make my nexus into a planetary fortress and give you the canon.
Also, you can always build a bunker and place some units inside and leave them as zergs and protoss DO to stop drops and harass. Wow! How hard. Or how spoiled.
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On February 14 2012 02:39 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:02 jsdk wrote:
[quote]
The side effect of balancing a complete race with two incomplete ones. so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...? Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted.. Give me a break. Protoss always has 1-2 canons + HT + a bunch of units as a static defence at expos vs terran and you complain about making your already built cc into a splash damage defense building? I would like to make my nexus into a planetary fortress and give you the canon. Also, you can always build a bunker and place some units inside and leave them as zergs and protoss DO to stop drops and harass. Wow! How hard. Or how spoiled.
hahaha
I like how nobody takes balance whines about planetary fortresses seriously.
This was brought up several times in State of the Game, and it got shot down so quickly (SotG 58).
Artosis lawl'd.
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On February 14 2012 01:52 Phoobie wrote:My adjustments to the changes proposed: Ghost snipe deals 50 damage base, 30 damage vs massive. this way the change exclusively nerfs the damage vs BL and Ultra while leaving snipe unchanged in every other situation, except maybe making it easier to 2 shot infestors so that snipe is still a valuable tool vs late game Zerg. Pheonix get a +1 range upgrade at something like the cyber core, more accessable and not as game changing and to make pheonix not the ONLY answer to mass Mutas; Archon range increased by 1. Reduce build time of carrier by like 15 seconds and allow interceptors to continue shooting if the carrier is issued a move command...common DO IT. for Terran late game, a small buff to HSM like 7 range and for 100 energy + the discussed +1 damage for BCs ground attack will od the trick  and where is my speed upgrade for Hydras D: and i can't wait for HoTs so that zerg gets a midgame siege unit, make it the lurker blizz (sorry for the OT, just typing my thoughts as they appear)
All I read was "Increase archon range by 1" ARE YOU MAD? Terran still exists in this game you know?
I would like to see a way for terran to actually get to use mech in the TvP matchup. It is 100% terrible right now, unless 1/1/1 which is in no way mech. Zerg have two styles, protoss have a few styles, TvP only has one. 1/1/1 isn't really a style as its a 1-2 base all in.
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On February 13 2012 19:02 USvBleakill wrote:
The Mule change is good, this maybe will stop the whining but the better way is to remove all gold paches.
The Snipe nerf is just a joke. How should Terran survive the Ultralisk switch after the 200/200 fight in split map situations? The tvz lategame is hard enough. The terran dont have an overall "ok" Unit like the Stalker which is never totally bad. Blindly building Marauders which are useless against anything except the Ultralisk?
With this patch i have to end the game on 2 vs 3 base or i have to be way better in the final engagement.
On 3 Attack upgrades the Auto-Attack makes more damage on standard light units than a 25 energy cast/spell. Just think about it.
Saying that stalkers an overall "ok" unit, and than continuing to say, that marauders are useless against anything except ultras.
I'm literally gasping in awe and disbelief.
Hate to break it to you, but marauders are better against the entire ground army of zerg AND at the same time cheaper than stalkers.
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Not digging the mass pheonix +2 range... How am i suppose to muta harass when i wont even get close to the mineral line with that? Hydra are a shitty counter now to phoenix play. You have to go corrupter infestor to heavy phoenix play and the protoss imba continues..
User was warned for this post
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On February 14 2012 03:05 Trealador wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 01:52 Phoobie wrote:My adjustments to the changes proposed: Ghost snipe deals 50 damage base, 30 damage vs massive. this way the change exclusively nerfs the damage vs BL and Ultra while leaving snipe unchanged in every other situation, except maybe making it easier to 2 shot infestors so that snipe is still a valuable tool vs late game Zerg. Pheonix get a +1 range upgrade at something like the cyber core, more accessable and not as game changing and to make pheonix not the ONLY answer to mass Mutas; Archon range increased by 1. Reduce build time of carrier by like 15 seconds and allow interceptors to continue shooting if the carrier is issued a move command...common DO IT. for Terran late game, a small buff to HSM like 7 range and for 100 energy + the discussed +1 damage for BCs ground attack will od the trick and where is my speed upgrade for Hydras D: and i can't wait for HoTs so that zerg gets a midgame siege unit, make it the lurker blizz (sorry for the OT, just typing my thoughts as they appear) All I read was "Increase archon range by 1" ARE YOU MAD? Terran still exists in this game you know? I would like to see a way for terran to actually get to use mech in the TvP matchup. It is 100% terrible right now, unless 1/1/1 which is in no way mech. Zerg have two styles, protoss have a few styles, TvP only has one. 1/1/1 isn't really a style as its a 1-2 base all in.
I suggested the Archon range because many Protoss complained that making stargate tech the only truly viable way to deal with mass mutas limits their options and allows zergt to transition to heavy ground and Protoss being behind on that front.
for your argument about viable mech in PvT I 100% agree, something should be done so that mech is at least a viable option against protoss, problem is:
Chargelots are efficent and really close the gap, awsome vs mech
Archons don't take full damage from tanks, making them very tough for mech to deal with before they close the gap
Immortals shrug off Thor and tank damage like an itch and deal VERY high damage back to them.
Hellions are decent against chargelots but don't help the mech army against anything else in the protoss arsenal.
I have some ideas, one being that Hardened Shields reduced damage above 10 by 60%, minimum of 10 damage rather than simply making every attack do 10 damage, this way Immortal shields will be exactly the same as they are now vs units like roachs and stalkers (10 damage) but would take extra damage from tanks and Thors, 12 x 2 damage from thors and 20 damage from a sieged tank. so soften the immortal counter vs mech.
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On February 14 2012 03:22 Phoobie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:05 Trealador wrote:On February 14 2012 01:52 Phoobie wrote:My adjustments to the changes proposed: Ghost snipe deals 50 damage base, 30 damage vs massive. this way the change exclusively nerfs the damage vs BL and Ultra while leaving snipe unchanged in every other situation, except maybe making it easier to 2 shot infestors so that snipe is still a valuable tool vs late game Zerg. Pheonix get a +1 range upgrade at something like the cyber core, more accessable and not as game changing and to make pheonix not the ONLY answer to mass Mutas; Archon range increased by 1. Reduce build time of carrier by like 15 seconds and allow interceptors to continue shooting if the carrier is issued a move command...common DO IT. for Terran late game, a small buff to HSM like 7 range and for 100 energy + the discussed +1 damage for BCs ground attack will od the trick and where is my speed upgrade for Hydras D: and i can't wait for HoTs so that zerg gets a midgame siege unit, make it the lurker blizz (sorry for the OT, just typing my thoughts as they appear) All I read was "Increase archon range by 1" ARE YOU MAD? Terran still exists in this game you know? I would like to see a way for terran to actually get to use mech in the TvP matchup. It is 100% terrible right now, unless 1/1/1 which is in no way mech. Zerg have two styles, protoss have a few styles, TvP only has one. 1/1/1 isn't really a style as its a 1-2 base all in. I suggested the Archon range because many Protoss complained that making stargate tech the only truly viable way to deal with mass mutas limits their options and allows zergt to transition to heavy ground and Protoss being behind on that front. for your argument about viable mech in PvT I 100% agree, something should be done so that mech is at least a viable option against protoss, problem is: Chargelots are efficent and really close the gap, awsome vs mech Archons don't take full damage from tanks, making them very tough for mech to deal with before they close the gap Immortals shrug off Thor and tank damage like an itch and deal VERY high damage back to them. Hellions are decent against chargelots but don't help the mech army against anything else in the protoss arsenal. I have some ideas, one being that Hardened Shields reduced damage above 10 by 60%, minimum of 10 damage rather than simply making every attack do 10 damage, this way Immortal shields will be exactly the same as they are now vs units like roachs and stalkers (10 damage) but would take extra damage from tanks and Thors, 12 x 2 damage from thors and 20 damage from a sieged tank. so soften the immortal counter vs mech.
This actually sounds very interesting to reduce hardened shields damage above 10. But the main problem is chargelots are just too cost efficient to throw against a mech army.
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On February 14 2012 03:05 Trealador wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 01:52 Phoobie wrote:My adjustments to the changes proposed: Ghost snipe deals 50 damage base, 30 damage vs massive. this way the change exclusively nerfs the damage vs BL and Ultra while leaving snipe unchanged in every other situation, except maybe making it easier to 2 shot infestors so that snipe is still a valuable tool vs late game Zerg. Pheonix get a +1 range upgrade at something like the cyber core, more accessable and not as game changing and to make pheonix not the ONLY answer to mass Mutas; Archon range increased by 1. Reduce build time of carrier by like 15 seconds and allow interceptors to continue shooting if the carrier is issued a move command...common DO IT. for Terran late game, a small buff to HSM like 7 range and for 100 energy + the discussed +1 damage for BCs ground attack will od the trick and where is my speed upgrade for Hydras D: and i can't wait for HoTs so that zerg gets a midgame siege unit, make it the lurker blizz (sorry for the OT, just typing my thoughts as they appear) All I read was "Increase archon range by 1" ARE YOU MAD? Terran still exists in this game you know? I would like to see a way for terran to actually get to use mech in the TvP matchup. It is 100% terrible right now, unless 1/1/1 which is in no way mech. Zerg have two styles, protoss have a few styles, TvP only has one. 1/1/1 isn't really a style as its a 1-2 base all in.
You'd need to change something with tanks that are just bad against Toss outside of 1/1/1 . Not sure what that would be though without completely changing/ruining the other 2 MU's .
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On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:02 jsdk wrote:On February 13 2012 21:57 Snowbear wrote:
[quote]
I agree with this. Every time terrans find out about something, it gets nerfed. I got the feeling that the raven will be the next nerf target. The side effect of balancing a complete race with two incomplete ones. so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...? Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted..
Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense.
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On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:02 jsdk wrote:
[quote]
The side effect of balancing a complete race with two incomplete ones. so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...? Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted.. Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense.
Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it.
The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos.
Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack.
And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army.
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On February 14 2012 03:28 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:22 Phoobie wrote:On February 14 2012 03:05 Trealador wrote:On February 14 2012 01:52 Phoobie wrote:My adjustments to the changes proposed: Ghost snipe deals 50 damage base, 30 damage vs massive. this way the change exclusively nerfs the damage vs BL and Ultra while leaving snipe unchanged in every other situation, except maybe making it easier to 2 shot infestors so that snipe is still a valuable tool vs late game Zerg. Pheonix get a +1 range upgrade at something like the cyber core, more accessable and not as game changing and to make pheonix not the ONLY answer to mass Mutas; Archon range increased by 1. Reduce build time of carrier by like 15 seconds and allow interceptors to continue shooting if the carrier is issued a move command...common DO IT. for Terran late game, a small buff to HSM like 7 range and for 100 energy + the discussed +1 damage for BCs ground attack will od the trick and where is my speed upgrade for Hydras D: and i can't wait for HoTs so that zerg gets a midgame siege unit, make it the lurker blizz (sorry for the OT, just typing my thoughts as they appear) All I read was "Increase archon range by 1" ARE YOU MAD? Terran still exists in this game you know? I would like to see a way for terran to actually get to use mech in the TvP matchup. It is 100% terrible right now, unless 1/1/1 which is in no way mech. Zerg have two styles, protoss have a few styles, TvP only has one. 1/1/1 isn't really a style as its a 1-2 base all in. I suggested the Archon range because many Protoss complained that making stargate tech the only truly viable way to deal with mass mutas limits their options and allows zergt to transition to heavy ground and Protoss being behind on that front. for your argument about viable mech in PvT I 100% agree, something should be done so that mech is at least a viable option against protoss, problem is: Chargelots are efficent and really close the gap, awsome vs mech Archons don't take full damage from tanks, making them very tough for mech to deal with before they close the gap Immortals shrug off Thor and tank damage like an itch and deal VERY high damage back to them. Hellions are decent against chargelots but don't help the mech army against anything else in the protoss arsenal. I have some ideas, one being that Hardened Shields reduced damage above 10 by 60%, minimum of 10 damage rather than simply making every attack do 10 damage, this way Immortal shields will be exactly the same as they are now vs units like roachs and stalkers (10 damage) but would take extra damage from tanks and Thors, 12 x 2 damage from thors and 20 damage from a sieged tank. so soften the immortal counter vs mech. This actually sounds very interesting to reduce hardened shields damage above 10. But the main problem is chargelots are just too cost efficient to throw against a mech army.
The proposed "battle hellion" from HoTS seams to be the perfect answer to chargelots, allows Hellions to remain viable in a late game mech army as a tough front line fighter.
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On February 14 2012 03:29 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:05 Trealador wrote:On February 14 2012 01:52 Phoobie wrote:My adjustments to the changes proposed: Ghost snipe deals 50 damage base, 30 damage vs massive. this way the change exclusively nerfs the damage vs BL and Ultra while leaving snipe unchanged in every other situation, except maybe making it easier to 2 shot infestors so that snipe is still a valuable tool vs late game Zerg. Pheonix get a +1 range upgrade at something like the cyber core, more accessable and not as game changing and to make pheonix not the ONLY answer to mass Mutas; Archon range increased by 1. Reduce build time of carrier by like 15 seconds and allow interceptors to continue shooting if the carrier is issued a move command...common DO IT. for Terran late game, a small buff to HSM like 7 range and for 100 energy + the discussed +1 damage for BCs ground attack will od the trick and where is my speed upgrade for Hydras D: and i can't wait for HoTs so that zerg gets a midgame siege unit, make it the lurker blizz (sorry for the OT, just typing my thoughts as they appear) All I read was "Increase archon range by 1" ARE YOU MAD? Terran still exists in this game you know? I would like to see a way for terran to actually get to use mech in the TvP matchup. It is 100% terrible right now, unless 1/1/1 which is in no way mech. Zerg have two styles, protoss have a few styles, TvP only has one. 1/1/1 isn't really a style as its a 1-2 base all in. You'd need to change something with tanks that are just bad against Toss outside of 1/1/1 . Not sure what that would be though without completely changing/ruining the other 2 MU's .
Tell that to Naama
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On February 14 2012 03:17 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 19:02 USvBleakill wrote:
The Mule change is good, this maybe will stop the whining but the better way is to remove all gold paches.
The Snipe nerf is just a joke. How should Terran survive the Ultralisk switch after the 200/200 fight in split map situations? The tvz lategame is hard enough. The terran dont have an overall "ok" Unit like the Stalker which is never totally bad. Blindly building Marauders which are useless against anything except the Ultralisk?
With this patch i have to end the game on 2 vs 3 base or i have to be way better in the final engagement.
On 3 Attack upgrades the Auto-Attack makes more damage on standard light units than a 25 energy cast/spell. Just think about it.
Saying that stalkers an overall "ok" unit, and than continuing to say, that marauders are useless against anything except ultras. I'm literally gasping in awe and disbelief. Hate to break it to you, but marauders are better against the entire ground army of zerg AND at the same time cheaper than stalkers.
Not in late game.
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This complaining about the ghost-change reminds me of the patch when they removed the amulet upgrade for high templars. I even contributed a bit to it as well, but the argument was that high templars were not useless, you can't use them now, Protoss is now under-powered, but it works just fine. Snipe is still good, it's just not fucking amazing when you have a pile of ghosts, Terrans will be fine.
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As P, I think helion/tank/ghost would be a scary composition. Sure, every ghost is one less tank (at less food cost), but EMP means full damage against immortals and between helion and ghost zealots aren't going to shred everything. Also, zealot charge takes forever to research. I think it would be interesting to bring out ghost academy before seige tech and time seige to finish along with first ghosts. Could make for a really scary timing and sets you up to not be hardcountered by immortal/chargelot.
I'm only diamond but I think it would be fun to see if this is actually viable (if it hasn't been tried and I just don't know about it), so if anyone is interested, PM me.
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On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:
[quote]
so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...? Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted.. Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense. Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it. The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos. Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack. And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army.
Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing.
For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right?
At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)...
You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice.
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On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:02 jsdk wrote:On February 13 2012 21:57 Snowbear wrote:
[quote]
I agree with this. Every time terrans find out about something, it gets nerfed. I got the feeling that the raven will be the next nerf target. The side effect of balancing a complete race with two incomplete ones. so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...? Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted..
theres nothing to say that in base orbitals and then pf's at every expansion isnt completely valid, just because you dont do it doesnt mean it doesnt work.
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On February 14 2012 03:44 Declination wrote:
As P, I think helion/tank/ghost would be a scary composition. Sure, every ghost is one less tank (at less food cost), but EMP means full damage against immortals and between helion and ghost zealots aren't going to shred everything. Also, zealot charge takes forever to research. I think it would be interesting to bring out ghost academy before seige tech and time seige to finish along with first ghosts. Could make for a really scary timing and sets you up to not be hardcountered by immortal/chargelot.
I'm only diamond but I think it would be fun to see if this is actually viable (if it hasn't been tried and I just don't know about it), so if anyone is interested, PM me.
How about Colossi this compositions sounds like it will get wrecked by them and there's no way to hit before they are out. I also doubt that would hit before Charge is done .
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On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:
[quote]
so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...? Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted.. Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense. Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it. The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos. Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack. And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army.
A terran complaining about static defense? Now I've seen it all. One stalker is going to take forever to kill a bunch of scvs, a dropship of marines wipes out mineral lines in seconds. And I can't tell you how many times I've placed 3 spine crawlers at my hatch just for a marine drop come and the marines are STILL out of range. Why don't you put like a siege tank by your PF? *mind blown*
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On February 14 2012 04:00 cHaNg-sTa wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:
[quote]
Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on.
Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game
Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty
Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units
Protoss lacks early game splash damage
Protoss lacks harassment options
Protoss lacks good splash for antiair
Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...? Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted.. Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense. Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it. The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos. Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack. And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army. A terran complaining about static defense? Now I've seen it all. One stalker is going to take forever to kill a bunch of scvs, a dropship of marines wipes out mineral lines in seconds. And I can't tell you how many times I've placed 3 spine crawlers at my hatch just for a marine drop come and the marines are STILL out of range. Why don't you put like a siege tank by your PF? *mind blown*
Probably because nobody builds tanks against Protoss ?^^ I'm complaining about PF but nobody is going to build an unupgraded just to guard a PF in case a couple of Stalkers might come by.
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EPT
