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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:
[quote]
Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on.
Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game
Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty
Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units
Protoss lacks early game splash damage
Protoss lacks harassment options
Protoss lacks good splash for antiair
Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...? Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted.. Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense. Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it. The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos. Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack. And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army. Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing. For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right? At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)... You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice.
I say you are doing something terribly wrong if you can't kill a PF that is being repaired with 200/200 army.
Honestly, I am wondering why some people still just focus on attacking PF instead of the SCV that are repairing it since the release of the game. You would thing that the SCV's are a higher priority than trying to take out a PF.
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On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:
[quote]
Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on.
Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game
Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty
Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units
Protoss lacks early game splash damage
Protoss lacks harassment options
Protoss lacks good splash for antiair
Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...? Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted.. Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense. Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it. The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos. Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack. And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army. Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing. For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right? At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)... You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice.
What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up.
And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs.
The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming.
Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons.
Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon)
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On February 13 2012 19:12 kusto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 19:02 USvBleakill wrote:
The Mule change is good, this maybe will stop the whining but the better way is to remove all gold paches.
The Snipe nerf is just a joke. How should Terran survive the Ultralisk switch after the 200/200 fight in split map situations? The tvz lategame is hard enough. The terran dont have an overall "ok" Unit like the Stalker which is never totally bad. Blindly building Marauders which are useless against anything except the Ultralisk?
That's a silly suggestion, but, why not scan (or scout somehow) after the engagement? That's not too far fetched, isn't it?
You scout, you see both a greater spire and an ultralisk cavern. You've just beaten back a brood lord/corrupter army. You see a bunch of larvae suddenly morph into eggs.
Do you know what's in those eggs? Of course not. You have to guess, and you go with marauders because you figure ultralisk tech switch. Then you scan again a couple minutes later and see a bunch of brood lords morphing. Now you've just sunk like 20-30 supply into marauders that have no value and you're frantically trying to get more vikings onto the field to combat the brood lords that are seconds away from morphing. Congratulations, there is now an exceptionally high chance that you'll get steamrolled very soon because you picked the wrong unit even though you had no way of knowing what the right unit was.
That's why the ghost nerf is a bad idea. Marauders have no use against brood lords, and vikings have no use against ultralisks, and Zerg is uniquely capable of morphing in large numbers of these units at once. Terran tech switches are very slow because we have the slowest production in the game compounded by the need to tech switch between reactors and tech labs, trading off vastly more efficient marine production for the need to get tech labs.
Ghosts are a bit of a catch-all unit in the situation because they need to be. How many times have we seen TvZs where Terran fights tooth and nail against a ling/bling/muta composition or whatever and finally gets into good position, only to get insta-rolled back across the map by brood lords because he didn't have ghosts out. Terran doesn't have a big time unit like the colossus or brood lord or ultralisk that suddenly changes everything when it hits the field. Our T3 is bad. Thors and BCs aren't worth their supply cost to get in the late game because they're not very good against Z or P in the first place.
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On February 14 2012 04:14 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 19:12 kusto wrote:On February 13 2012 19:02 USvBleakill wrote:
The Mule change is good, this maybe will stop the whining but the better way is to remove all gold paches.
The Snipe nerf is just a joke. How should Terran survive the Ultralisk switch after the 200/200 fight in split map situations? The tvz lategame is hard enough. The terran dont have an overall "ok" Unit like the Stalker which is never totally bad. Blindly building Marauders which are useless against anything except the Ultralisk?
That's a silly suggestion, but, why not scan (or scout somehow) after the engagement? That's not too far fetched, isn't it? You scout, you see both a greater spire and an ultralisk cavern. You've just beaten back a brood lord/corrupter army. You see a bunch of larvae suddenly morph into eggs. Do you know what's in those eggs? Of course not. You have to guess, and you go with marauders because you figure ultralisk tech switch. Then you scan again a couple minutes later and see a bunch of brood lords morphing. Now you've just sunk like 20-30 supply into marauders that have no value and you're frantically trying to get more vikings onto the field to combat the brood lords that are seconds away from morphing. Congratulations, there is now an exceptionally high chance that you'll get steamrolled very soon because you picked the wrong unit even though you had no way of knowing what the right unit was. That's why the ghost nerf is a bad idea. Marauders have no use against brood lords, and vikings have no use against ultralisks, and Zerg is uniquely capable of morphing in large numbers of these units at once. Terran tech switches are very slow because we have the slowest production in the game compounded by the need to tech switch between reactors and tech labs, trading off vastly more efficient marine production for the need to get tech labs. Ghosts are a bit of a catch-all unit in the situation because they need to be. How many times have we seen TvZs where Terran fights tooth and nail against a ling/bling/muta composition or whatever and finally gets into good position, only to get insta-rolled back across the map by brood lords because he didn't have ghosts out. Terran doesn't have a big time unit like the colossus or brood lord or ultralisk that suddenly changes everything when it hits the field. Our T3 is bad. Thors and BCs aren't worth their supply cost to get in the late game because they're not very good against Z or P in the first place.
This was the best post I read all day. Thank you.
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I honestly dont know what difference the range increase upgrade is going to make , at fleet beacon level which is roughly the equivalent of hive on the tech tree. I think giving the Phönix a corsair-like area of effect damage ability with this upgrade would be much more appropriate, that would force the Zerg to micro his mutas a great deal to have a chance in a direct fight (magicboxing phönixes?) and would give Protoss another answer to the broodlord/corruptor lategame.
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On February 14 2012 04:20 Irratonalys wrote:
I honestly dont know what difference the range increase upgrade is going to make , at fleet beacon level which is roughly the equivalent of hive on the tech tree. I think giving the Phönix a corsair-like area of effect damage ability with this upgrade would be much more appropriate, that would force the Zerg to micro his mutas a great deal to have a chance in a direct fight (magicboxing phönixes?) and would give Protoss another answer to the broodlord/corruptor lategame.
Perhaps against small numbers of phoenix Z would have to micro 2 or 3 groups of mutas, i.e. 1 to chase the kiting phoenixes and several to try and pick off the fleeing phoenixes similar to the way you would sometimes see scourge sandwhiches against corsairs in BW. If P has so many phoenixes that this isn't viable that is a lot of supply and resources caught up in a unit that frankly isn't good against much besides mutas in the late game.
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On February 14 2012 04:14 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 19:12 kusto wrote:On February 13 2012 19:02 USvBleakill wrote:
The Mule change is good, this maybe will stop the whining but the better way is to remove all gold paches.
The Snipe nerf is just a joke. How should Terran survive the Ultralisk switch after the 200/200 fight in split map situations? The tvz lategame is hard enough. The terran dont have an overall "ok" Unit like the Stalker which is never totally bad. Blindly building Marauders which are useless against anything except the Ultralisk?
That's a silly suggestion, but, why not scan (or scout somehow) after the engagement? That's not too far fetched, isn't it? You scout, you see both a greater spire and an ultralisk cavern. You've just beaten back a brood lord/corrupter army. You see a bunch of larvae suddenly morph into eggs. Do you know what's in those eggs? Of course not. You have to guess, and you go with marauders because you figure ultralisk tech switch. Then you scan again a couple minutes later and see a bunch of brood lords morphing. Now you've just sunk like 20-30 supply into marauders that have no value and you're frantically trying to get more vikings onto the field to combat the brood lords that are seconds away from morphing. Congratulations, there is now an exceptionally high chance that you'll get steamrolled very soon because you picked the wrong unit even though you had no way of knowing what the right unit was. That's why the ghost nerf is a bad idea. Marauders have no use against brood lords, and vikings have no use against ultralisks, and Zerg is uniquely capable of morphing in large numbers of these units at once. Terran tech switches are very slow because we have the slowest production in the game compounded by the need to tech switch between reactors and tech labs, trading off vastly more efficient marine production for the need to get tech labs. Ghosts are a bit of a catch-all unit in the situation because they need to be. How many times have we seen TvZs where Terran fights tooth and nail against a ling/bling/muta composition or whatever and finally gets into good position, only to get insta-rolled back across the map by brood lords because he didn't have ghosts out. Terran doesn't have a big time unit like the colossus or brood lord or ultralisk that suddenly changes everything when it hits the field. Our T3 is bad. Thors and BCs aren't worth their supply cost to get in the late game because they're not very good against Z or P in the first place.
Perfectly said. Alot of zergs use the argument that terrans can make 1 unit that counters their tier 3. Meanwhile, terrans have to guess what unit composition his opponent will make.
Another argument is that mass ghosts are unbeatable. Yes, they are when the terran has much better control. I saw countless of top tier terrans lose with 20+ ghosts.
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On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull
Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders
Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts
Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim
Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks
Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF
Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...?
Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks
Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate.
...
Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted.. Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense. Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it. The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos. Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack. And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army. Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing. For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right? At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)... You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice. What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up. And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs. The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming. Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons. Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon)
A PF at a forward expansion essentially means "Don't engage over there, you'll get raped instantly by a repairable splashing building!".
4 cannons are not that threatening if you push into them with your whole army.
I guess my point is that PF are better at controlling space in midgame, but less advantaged in very late game when you have mass minerals and you must take every expand on a huge map.
You also seem to forget that CC fly and you're not forced to build the CC where you'll build the PF, whereas Protoss has to build his Nexus in plain sight. But what do I know, you're rank 2 master in all races and shit.
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On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull
Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders
Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts
Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim
Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks
Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF
Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...?
Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks
Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate.
...
Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted.. Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense. Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it. The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos. Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack. And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army. Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing. For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right? At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)... You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice. What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up. And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs. The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming. Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons. Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon)
1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop.
2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind.
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When is this getting rolled out?
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Awesome Patch I think the ghost change has been needed for a long time!
It'll be interesting to see how the pheonix change works out
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Poland3747 Posts
Mule's should be removed. Call Down SCV would be good enough of a bonus.
Snipe change will work but is stupid and anti-climatic. They should just do half damage to massive units. Would work.
Phoenix change IMHO, though!
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On February 14 2012 04:29 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:14 forsooth wrote:On February 13 2012 19:12 kusto wrote:On February 13 2012 19:02 USvBleakill wrote:
The Mule change is good, this maybe will stop the whining but the better way is to remove all gold paches.
The Snipe nerf is just a joke. How should Terran survive the Ultralisk switch after the 200/200 fight in split map situations? The tvz lategame is hard enough. The terran dont have an overall "ok" Unit like the Stalker which is never totally bad. Blindly building Marauders which are useless against anything except the Ultralisk?
That's a silly suggestion, but, why not scan (or scout somehow) after the engagement? That's not too far fetched, isn't it? You scout, you see both a greater spire and an ultralisk cavern. You've just beaten back a brood lord/corrupter army. You see a bunch of larvae suddenly morph into eggs. Do you know what's in those eggs? Of course not. You have to guess, and you go with marauders because you figure ultralisk tech switch. Then you scan again a couple minutes later and see a bunch of brood lords morphing. Now you've just sunk like 20-30 supply into marauders that have no value and you're frantically trying to get more vikings onto the field to combat the brood lords that are seconds away from morphing. Congratulations, there is now an exceptionally high chance that you'll get steamrolled very soon because you picked the wrong unit even though you had no way of knowing what the right unit was. That's why the ghost nerf is a bad idea. Marauders have no use against brood lords, and vikings have no use against ultralisks, and Zerg is uniquely capable of morphing in large numbers of these units at once. Terran tech switches are very slow because we have the slowest production in the game compounded by the need to tech switch between reactors and tech labs, trading off vastly more efficient marine production for the need to get tech labs. Ghosts are a bit of a catch-all unit in the situation because they need to be. How many times have we seen TvZs where Terran fights tooth and nail against a ling/bling/muta composition or whatever and finally gets into good position, only to get insta-rolled back across the map by brood lords because he didn't have ghosts out. Terran doesn't have a big time unit like the colossus or brood lord or ultralisk that suddenly changes everything when it hits the field. Our T3 is bad. Thors and BCs aren't worth their supply cost to get in the late game because they're not very good against Z or P in the first place. Perfectly said. Alot of zergs use the argument that terrans can make 1 unit that counters their tier 3. Meanwhile, terrans have to guess what unit composition his opponent will make. Another argument is that mass ghosts are unbeatable. Yes, they are when the terran has much better control. I saw countless of top tier terrans lose with 20+ ghosts.
I agree, but I don't think mass ghost is unbeatable. We have really only seen mass ghost like 5 times (most of them by the best player in 2011). Leenock vs. ForGG and MVP vs. Darkforce is examples of that it's not unbeatable.
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On February 14 2012 04:41 nimdil wrote:
Mule's should be removed. Call Down SCV would be good enough of a bonus.
How can you even think something like this. Terrans are NOT dominating at all, especially not in EU and NA. Imagine mules (worth 6 scvs) being replaced by 1 scv. I really don't understand how you dare to say something like this. You act like terran is an imbalanced race, and meanwhile it actually isnt.
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On February 14 2012 04:41 nimdil wrote:
Mule's should be removed. Call Down SCV would be good enough of a bonus.
Snipe change will work but is stupid and anti-climatic. They should just do half damage to massive units. Would work.
Phoenix change IMHO, though!
Call down SCV every 50 Energy ? ...... Ok if you removed chronoboost on Workers and make it impossible to produce Drones say more then 2-3 at one Hatch at a time maybe. It may be stupid but thats the uniquie abilility Blizzard gave Terran a way to sack workers and get a better army size . But thats also needed because of the Larva/Warpgate mechanics.
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just recently on the Bnet forums kaivax wrote (comunity manager)
We have decided that, at this time, we will not be operating a public test realm for the 1.4.3 patch.
I have edited the previous post by Aldrexus in this thread to reflect that fact.
We apologize for the confusion created on this subject. Thank you for the excellent feedback on the many other topics that have come up in this thread.
its the #330 post
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=17
what does this means??
They will be implementing the patch without the PTR?
or they wont be implementing the patch? wth lol
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On February 14 2012 04:41 nimdil wrote:
Mule's should be removed. Call Down SCV would be good enough of a bonus.
Snipe change will work but is stupid and anti-climatic. They should just do half damage to massive units. Would work.
Phoenix change IMHO, though!
MULE should be removed?
Give T call down scv for 25 energy and I'm fine with that. Otherwise, how the heck are Terrans supposed to keep up with economy against P and Z?
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On February 14 2012 04:43 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:41 nimdil wrote:
Mule's should be removed. Call Down SCV would be good enough of a bonus.
How can you even think something like this. Terrans are NOT dominating at all, especially not in EU and NA. Imagine mules (worth 6 scvs) being replaced by 1 scv. I really don't understand how you dare to say something like this. You act like terran is an imbalanced race, and meanwhile it actually isnt.
facepalm...
he obviously means to call down equivalent amount of scvs for a mule ....
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On February 14 2012 04:59 Hantak wrote:just recently on the Bnet forums kaivax wrote (comunity manager) We have decided that, at this time, we will not be operating a public test realm for the 1.4.3 patch. I have edited the previous post by Aldrexus in this thread to reflect that fact. We apologize for the confusion created on this subject. Thank you for the excellent feedback on the many other topics that have come up in this thread. its the #330 post http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=17what does this means?? They will be implementing the patch without the PTR? or they wont be implementing the patch? wth lol
This means that they will be implementing a patch without ptr testing. We do not know for sure what will be in the patch. It might be identical to the preview notes or it could be very different. We wont know until the patch goes live and we get the final patch notes.
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If Blizzard were to seriously consider addressing balance issues then they should really be looking at ways to weaken the terran early game and buff their late game. The proposed ghost change does nothing to remedy balance issues that exist but rather deepens the issues that do exist.
Late game TvZ is extremely difficult from the terran's perspective because of multiple reasons. It places an extremely high demand on multitasking (multipronged drops/nukes) and micro, (splitting/emping/sniping/focus firing/viking dancing etc) that are entirely necessary to succeed at higher levels of play. In this sense; does terran have more to do than the zerg late game in terms of multitasking and micro? Maybe or maybe not.
What terran inarguably does have greater difficulty than the zerg with in late game scenario's is adapting to compositions. The reasons for this should be obvious: zerg can produce units en masse extremely quickly from one core piece of infrastructure, (of course there are prerequisites but in late game scenarios this is rarely an issue). Terran's late game scouting is also arguably too weak to combat this problem. Despite the common conception that 'terrans can scan for unit compositions', scanning is rarely reliable or quick enough in determining a zerg's unit composition.
Obviously the ability to make huge tech transitions is a necessary feature of the zerg race both to make it distinct and to give the race late game strength.
One obvious response in terms of designing terran is to give them one core 'middle of the road' unit which is capable of handling zerg versatility and then supplement that unit with others which are more role specific. We can clearly see elements of this in the ghost which currently acts as the core, late game terran unit but which does not 'hard-counter' every single zerg unit that can be thrown at you. Sure it has greater strength against some units in isolation (broordlords, infestors) whilst remaining weaker to others, (banelings, ultralisks) but it does not really hard counter the zerg race by itself. One still needs vikings to deal with broodlord/infestor/corrupter and one still needs marauders to deal with ultra/ling/baneling/infestor. One still needs marines for drop harass and one still needs tanks to deal with banelings (roach/infestors too I guess). The glue of the terran late game however, seems to be the ghost.
My issue with the snipe nerf is that it is taking away the late game versatility of the ghost which, in my opinion, is fundamentally necessary for the success of the race in the late game. Put simply: terran NEEDS a strong, versatile unit that can somewhat deal with late game zerg tech switches. The key phrase here is 'late game'. Marines are also extremely versatile but they cannot deal with the particular late game tech switches (i.e. broodlord infestors or ultra/infestor/blings). There are people appealing to the Raven in this thread but do you seriously think Raven's are going to be an adequate response to late game tech switches. The youtube video of Morrow doesn't even show Leenock engaging with the typical infestor/broodlord/corrupter army; let alone showing how ravens could deal with an ultralisk switch.
Does snipe need a nerf? From my own experience I don't think so.
Late game TvZ at least appears more difficult for the terran than it is for the zerg for reasons I have alluded to, (micro/multitasking/adapting to unit compositions). However there will be terrans and (reasonable) zergs better than myself in agreement with a ghost/snipe nerf so the debate is obviously not closed. Regardless of whatever race you play or bias you have, I would hope that it is clear a nerf of this magnitude to the ghost is going to have a significant and negative impact on the terran late game. For the good of the game, we should universally oppose this change - at least in it's current state, (and obviously I, and others will oppose any change to snipe at all).
Some less detailed observations from a terran's perspective:
a) The lack of a change to TvP lategame is disappointing - especially when considering what I feel is an unnecesary nerf to ghosts, (a nerf to both TvP and TvZ lategames).
b) If Blizzard is serious about balancing the game, i'd really like them to take a look at the mule; perhaps by decreasing it's duration by 1 or 2 mining cycles or reducing how many minerals it mines each cycle. It could conceivably weaken a lot of terran all ins as well as their mid game timings (which is, judging by general consensus, where terran is strongest/too strong). This would obviously have knock on effects on terran's late game but at least then we might have a smaller 'gameplay area' which requires rebalancing, (rather than problems existing all the way from early game to late game).
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