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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 14 2012 01:31 wunsun wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 01:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 01:16 Mysteric, Hysteric wrote:
Does anyone know when this will be implemented? Probably when the new season starts. Tomorrow for NA server. I'm pretty sure that I read on the Blizz forums, that they are going through the PTR first, so it won't be for some time. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/4044464943?page=2#26"We appreciate all the constructive feedback we’ve received thus far. As a reminder, you’ll be able to test these changes first-hand once Patch 1.4.3 is placed on the PTR in the coming weeks, so we encourage you to try it out and let us know what you think."
Ah I apologize ^^
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I think snipe is a pretty dumb ability and i think it was a good change, now ghosts will do what i have hoped for them to do in a long time, kill infestors on 2shots!
I really hope to see a buff to BC's and somehow make terran abit more playable lategame tvz (maybe not because of a BC buff but i'm sure there are other ways.
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My adjustments to the changes proposed:
Ghost snipe deals 50 damage base, 30 damage vs massive. this way the change exclusively nerfs the damage vs BL and Ultra while leaving snipe unchanged in every other situation, except maybe making it easier to 2 shot infestors so that snipe is still a valuable tool vs late game Zerg.
Pheonix get a +1 range upgrade at something like the cyber core, more accessable and not as game changing
and to make pheonix not the ONLY answer to mass Mutas; Archon range increased by 1.
Reduce build time of carrier by like 15 seconds and allow interceptors to continue shooting if the carrier is issued a move command...common DO IT.
for Terran late game, a small buff to HSM like 7 range and for 100 energy + the discussed +1 damage for BCs ground attack will od the trick 
and where is my speed upgrade for Hydras D:
and i can't wait for HoTs so that zerg gets a midgame siege unit, make it the lurker blizz (sorry for the OT, just typing my thoughts as they appear)
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On February 14 2012 01:52 Phoobie wrote:
My adjustments to the changes proposed:
Ghost snipe deals 50 damage base, 30 damage vs massive. this way the change exclusively nerfs the damage vs BL and Ultra while leaving snipe unchanged in every other situation, except maybe making it easier to 2 shot infestors so that snipe is still a valuable tool vs late game Zerg.
Pheonix get a +1 range upgrade at something like the cyber core, more accessable and not as game changing
and to make pheonix not the ONLY answer to mass Mutas; Archon range increased by 1.
Reduce build time of carrier by like 15 seconds and allow interceptors to continue shooting if the carrier is issued a move command...common DO IT.
and where is my speed upgrade for Hydras D:
and i can't wait for HoTs so that zerg gets a midgame siege unit, make it the lurker blizz (sorry for the OT, just typing my thoughts as they appear)
lmao, archon range increase again will destroy the game's balance.
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I could see the Phoenix upgrade being split up as a two stage upgrade:
+1 range (total range 5) at the cybercore (cost TBD)
+1 range (total range 6) at the cybercore, unlocked by the fleet beacon (cost TBD).
So protoss can get the +1 range increase relatively quickly, and if they need the additional increase because of massed mutas, they can get the fleet beacon.
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On February 14 2012 01:55 Tump wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 01:52 Phoobie wrote:
My adjustments to the changes proposed:
Ghost snipe deals 50 damage base, 30 damage vs massive. this way the change exclusively nerfs the damage vs BL and Ultra while leaving snipe unchanged in every other situation, except maybe making it easier to 2 shot infestors so that snipe is still a valuable tool vs late game Zerg.
Pheonix get a +1 range upgrade at something like the cyber core, more accessable and not as game changing
and to make pheonix not the ONLY answer to mass Mutas; Archon range increased by 1.
Reduce build time of carrier by like 15 seconds and allow interceptors to continue shooting if the carrier is issued a move command...common DO IT.
and where is my speed upgrade for Hydras D:
and i can't wait for HoTs so that zerg gets a midgame siege unit, make it the lurker blizz (sorry for the OT, just typing my thoughts as they appear) lmao, archon range increase again will destroy the game's balance.
how so? 4 range is still relatively short and makes templar tech an alternative to stargate tech as a means to dealing with mass mutas, the only scary thing I can think of is vs Z as T seams to have little trouble with archons becasue of High DPS bio ball + EMP.
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On February 14 2012 01:57 Elfich wrote:
I could see the Phoenix upgrade being split up as a two stage upgrade:
+1 range (total range 5) at the cybercore (cost TBD)
+1 range (total range 6) at the cybercore, unlocked by the fleet beacon (cost TBD).
So protoss can get the +1 range increase relatively quickly, and if they need the additional increase because of massed mutas, they can get the fleet beacon.
I sort of like this idea
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On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:02 jsdk wrote:On February 13 2012 21:57 Snowbear wrote:On February 13 2012 20:53 fishinguy wrote:
T players will now start doing some other strategy, P and Z will whine more and T will get nerfed again, wait and see. I agree with this. Every time terrans find out about something, it gets nerfed. I got the feeling that the raven will be the next nerf target. The side effect of balancing a complete race with two incomplete ones. so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...? Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units.
Addressed every point individually.
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OP updated! Sorry it took so long folks!
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On February 14 2012 01:57 Phoobie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 01:55 Tump wrote:On February 14 2012 01:52 Phoobie wrote:
My adjustments to the changes proposed:
Ghost snipe deals 50 damage base, 30 damage vs massive. this way the change exclusively nerfs the damage vs BL and Ultra while leaving snipe unchanged in every other situation, except maybe making it easier to 2 shot infestors so that snipe is still a valuable tool vs late game Zerg.
Pheonix get a +1 range upgrade at something like the cyber core, more accessable and not as game changing
and to make pheonix not the ONLY answer to mass Mutas; Archon range increased by 1.
Reduce build time of carrier by like 15 seconds and allow interceptors to continue shooting if the carrier is issued a move command...common DO IT.
and where is my speed upgrade for Hydras D:
and i can't wait for HoTs so that zerg gets a midgame siege unit, make it the lurker blizz (sorry for the OT, just typing my thoughts as they appear) lmao, archon range increase again will destroy the game's balance. how so? 4 range is still relatively short and makes templar tech an alternative to stargate tech as a means to dealing with mass mutas, the only scary thing I can think of is vs Z as T seams to have little trouble with archons becasue of High DPS bio ball + EMP.
The only scary thing you can think of is an entire matchup...? Probably not the best logic.
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On February 14 2012 01:57 Phoobie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 01:55 Tump wrote:On February 14 2012 01:52 Phoobie wrote:
My adjustments to the changes proposed:
Ghost snipe deals 50 damage base, 30 damage vs massive. this way the change exclusively nerfs the damage vs BL and Ultra while leaving snipe unchanged in every other situation, except maybe making it easier to 2 shot infestors so that snipe is still a valuable tool vs late game Zerg.
Pheonix get a +1 range upgrade at something like the cyber core, more accessable and not as game changing
and to make pheonix not the ONLY answer to mass Mutas; Archon range increased by 1.
Reduce build time of carrier by like 15 seconds and allow interceptors to continue shooting if the carrier is issued a move command...common DO IT.
and where is my speed upgrade for Hydras D:
and i can't wait for HoTs so that zerg gets a midgame siege unit, make it the lurker blizz (sorry for the OT, just typing my thoughts as they appear) lmao, archon range increase again will destroy the game's balance. how so? 4 range is still relatively short and makes templar tech an alternative to stargate tech as a means to dealing with mass mutas, the only scary thing I can think of is vs Z as T seams to have little trouble with archons becasue of High DPS bio ball + EMP.
it breaks TvP even further, a matchup where archons are already beginning to feel too powerful in combination with chargelots.
archon range was already increased, and it drastically changed PvP and PvT.
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MULE change: expected something like this and absolutely needed to bring the benefits of gold bases more into line of equal risk/reward for all races (still not quite there though).
APM/CPM change: just a little doodad change here really, but a nice one nonetheless. It'll at least stop people complaining about it.
Phoenix upgrade: this could genuinely be a game changer at least as far as PvZ goes. Part of the problem with Phoenix against Mutas at the moment is that since Phoenix only out range by one if you literally take your eyes off your phoenix cloud for even an instant you take absolutely massive damage. The amount of damage you can do to mutas with them compared with how vulnerable they are compared with the expense and limitation of Protoss air tech just don't add up.
With this upgrade, however, its going to become far more viable to build a decent but not massive number of Phoenixes (say, ten of them) and almost shut down Muta play after a certain amount of time. That means Mutas will now be extremely effective in small to medium numbers in a very specific timining window and will be reasonably effective as a form of harrass for the rest of the game (if you're smart with them) but can't just be built constantly to roll over everything. In theory we should see the end of the constantly expanding Muta flock (assuming Protoss is being aggressive with the Phoenixes); which should make for much more diverse PvZ games.
Personally I'm excited by the possibilities with this one.
Snipe: Ok, bit of context. I'm a relatively low-level player (Silver/Gold level) and I main Protoss in 1v1. Recently I've been playing 4v4s as Random for relaxation and find I'm really starting to like Zerg and Terran mech play (which a change to Ghosts won't effect). So in theory I should be exactly the sort of person happy or at least neutral at the Ghost being made less versatile.
But honestly it just seems a tad over the top so I'm against it. I could see maybe something like 35+15 or even 30+20. But going all the way down to 25+25 just seems insane. I can't disagree with this seemingly prevalent view that "Terrans need to use more than just Ghosts against everything" (to paraphrase) but its a really, really bad idea to try to achieve that goal all in one go. Small steps and see what happens as a result. Massive jumps like this run the risk of making a unit completely inviable (note: I'm not saying that Ghosts will be inviable with this change, that remains to be seen through games played, I'm merely stating they're running a risk).
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On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:02 jsdk wrote:On February 13 2012 21:57 Snowbear wrote:On February 13 2012 20:53 fishinguy wrote:
T players will now start doing some other strategy, P and Z will whine more and T will get nerfed again, wait and see. I agree with this. Every time terrans find out about something, it gets nerfed. I got the feeling that the raven will be the next nerf target. The side effect of balancing a complete race with two incomplete ones. so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...? Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually.
Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “cheap nonsupply antiground defence”.
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On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:02 jsdk wrote:On February 13 2012 21:57 Snowbear wrote:On February 13 2012 20:53 fishinguy wrote:
T players will now start doing some other strategy, P and Z will whine more and T will get nerfed again, wait and see. I agree with this. Every time terrans find out about something, it gets nerfed. I got the feeling that the raven will be the next nerf target. The side effect of balancing a complete race with two incomplete ones. so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...? Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”.
I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion.
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On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:02 jsdk wrote:On February 13 2012 21:57 Snowbear wrote:On February 13 2012 20:53 fishinguy wrote:
T players will now start doing some other strategy, P and Z will whine more and T will get nerfed again, wait and see. I agree with this. Every time terrans find out about something, it gets nerfed. I got the feeling that the raven will be the next nerf target. The side effect of balancing a complete race with two incomplete ones. so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...? Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”.
If you think 550/150 is just for defense, what about the free command center?
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When is this being integrated?
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After watching SotG it seems that even people of other races feel that the snipe nerf was too much. It definitely need to be way less effective on massive units, but it shouldn't be made useless on other units as well. It really does seem like Blizzard tries to make things only have one specific use. If they really want Ghosts to only be an anti-caster unit then our concerns won't matter, but the game will be less dynamic because of it.
It seems like this is the first time that a nerf has caused such a huge outcry so here's to hoping that Blizzard listens and makes adjustments. The only other one seems to have been neural parasite, but that ability is much harder to balance than an ability that simply does damage.
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On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:02 jsdk wrote:On February 13 2012 21:57 Snowbear wrote:On February 13 2012 20:53 fishinguy wrote:
T players will now start doing some other strategy, P and Z will whine more and T will get nerfed again, wait and see. I agree with this. Every time terrans find out about something, it gets nerfed. I got the feeling that the raven will be the next nerf target. The side effect of balancing a complete race with two incomplete ones. so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...? Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion.
Line of them. Right across the middle of the map.
Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^
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On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:02 jsdk wrote:On February 13 2012 21:57 Snowbear wrote:On February 13 2012 20:53 fishinguy wrote:
T players will now start doing some other strategy, P and Z will whine more and T will get nerfed again, wait and see. I agree with this. Every time terrans find out about something, it gets nerfed. I got the feeling that the raven will be the next nerf target. The side effect of balancing a complete race with two incomplete ones. so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...? Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^
Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_>
Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes?
EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted..
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On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:On February 14 2012 02:06 chadissilent wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:02 jsdk wrote:On February 13 2012 21:57 Snowbear wrote:
[quote]
I agree with this. Every time terrans find out about something, it gets nerfed. I got the feeling that the raven will be the next nerf target. The side effect of balancing a complete race with two incomplete ones. so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game -SCV pull Terran lacks early beefy units. - Marauders Terran lacks early casters. - Ghosts Terran lacks mobile versatile units. - Marines with stim Terran lacks versatile production facilities. - Barracks Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. - PF Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. ...? Terran lacks fast remax options. - Lots of Barracks Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. - So does everybody that doesn't have warp gate. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Addressed every point individually. Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “ cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted..
By the time you start needing a PF, your natural is usually pretty close to mined out.
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EPT
