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Please DISCUSS the changes and the impact they will have on gameplay.
Straight up whining and bitching will get you a ban, no exceptions. |
On February 14 2012 05:13 XiGua wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:10 s3rp wrote:On February 14 2012 05:03 freetgy wrote:On February 14 2012 04:43 Snowbear wrote:On February 14 2012 04:41 nimdil wrote:
Mule's should be removed. Call Down SCV would be good enough of a bonus.
How can you even think something like this. Terrans are NOT dominating at all, especially not in EU and NA. Imagine mules (worth 6 scvs) being replaced by 1 scv. I really don't understand how you dare to say something like this. You act like terran is an imbalanced race, and meanwhile it actually isnt. facepalm... he obviously means to call down equivalent amount of scvs for a mule .... Still Chronoboost and Larva Inject ( which both kinda are the Toss/Zerg equivalent ) would be soooo much better since they don't exclusively work on Economy. That would make Terrans economy management even worse . What? You get 6 scvs for FREE and you still complain?! WTF, you will have full saturation on all bases after 500-600 energy and 0 scvs manually built from CC. Talk about heaven for Terran...
The thing is, Mules don't let you make an army faster. :d
So Terran can make a big army because they don't need scv, but they ain"t flexible at all at this stage of the game because they remax almost twice as slow as protoss and terran.
That's why Ghost are great in lategame TvZ, they're good a lot of thing. And that's the core of Terran, polyvalent units.
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I am bothered by how quick they were to nerf all of the core units and mechanics of toss before anyone knew what they were doing in sc2 (forge build nerf, several warp nerfs, zealot build time nerf, blink nerf,) and just remove upgrades from the game (templar energy, void speed) and now that toss has been on the bottom of the pro scene for a solid year, they refuse to take a second look at these things and give protoss any meaningfull buffs. I hope in the expansion they will consider completely reworking gateways and protoss early game/ tech path mechanics. To give protoss more flexibility, and viability for creativity. I really don't see this change making phoenix's viable in response to mutas, I mean are you going to just start pumping them out blindly and make a fleet becon to get +1 range? It doesn't make any sense, and there is now way you can start investing in this AFTER you scout spire and come out ahead. Zergs will be able to scout you making pheonix and switch to ground with no problem, but if protoss commits to phoenix and doesn't have the templar or robo units vs zergs ground, it will be a slow death for toss.
What bothers me about zerg is hive tech seems too weak vs terran yet too strong vs toss. Ghost deals with everything well, but I think that nerf is going too far, what happened to sligh nerfs and fine tuning? 20 dmg gone, all at once, really? Why not try -10 and see how it looks? Fighting vs hive in the late game as toss is brutal, without a mothership there is very little protoss can do. You really have to win in the mid game PvZ. Because you can't really counter the broodlords, void rays are the only thing that appears to deal with hive tech on paper, but infestors and corruptors just negate them so hard and if they have broodlords they have corruptors and infestors already.
Also, this may sound a bit weird, but I think creep tumors need a nerf, they are too much of a free buff in terms of mobility and vision. Zergs don't even have to use thier overlords effectively for vision and creep spread becasue tumors are just so much better in every way, they are invis, free, and make about as much creep as a hatchery. I realize that inject and creep have a lot of management, which makes the skill ceiling very high, but the other races just don't have anything that compares in terms of skill ceiling => reward, imho. Creep tumors are just so much reward for zero risk, make them use the overlords, I say.
As for terran, this is really the only race I think is heading into the right direction in HOTS, terran needs to get away from being bio based and back to mech, to be a fun race to play in the late game. I just don't know what they are thinking when they nerf ghosts this hard and don't compensate terran to deal with Broodlord infestor with Ultra tech switches. TvZ is going to turn into PvZ, where the terran better have dealt a ton of damage before late game hits because it will just become sad watching Terrans slowly die to BL infestor as the late game progresses. With the hellion nerf and barracks nerf they've had in the last few patches, it's going to be a bitch for terrans to do the damage they need to in order to not get rolled in the late game.
Overall, it just seems like the only strategy for dealing with zerg late game is going to be "don't let it happen", and that's sad. I'd really like to see those epic games that went on for an hour with back and forth nail biting glory like in bw.
As for the mule change, this really should have been done in the beta. Because that is when I recall it first being mentioned by players, and obviosly, PF + mules give terran an advantage at golds in terms of income and risk. I'm going to have to go with the popular opionion and just hope golds are removed all together. I really feel like gold bases in general hold the least benifit for protoss. Becasue zerg has creep spread and a very mobile army which makes defense easier, also the hatcher itself is several gateways worth of production and drones can burrow to be saved, terrans have PF, mules, and a fast ground army(stim +mm). Protoss takes much more risk than zerg or terran in holding a gold base.
Yes, I realize I'm very protoss biased 
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On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 04:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:On February 14 2012 02:17 TheDwf wrote:
[quote]
Glad to see that 550/150 is your definition of “cheap nonsupply antiground defence”. I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted.. Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense. Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it. The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos. Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack. And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army. Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing. For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right? At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)... You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice. What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up. And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs. The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming. Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons. Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon) 1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop. 2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind. You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes. The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point? I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom.
But does HSM works against Ultra? And if not, what do you propose Terran should do with ultra switch?
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United States7483 Posts
On February 14 2012 00:57 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 00:40 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 00:32 fishinguy wrote:On February 13 2012 23:49 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:02 jsdk wrote:On February 13 2012 21:57 Snowbear wrote:On February 13 2012 20:53 fishinguy wrote:
T players will now start doing some other strategy, P and Z will whine more and T will get nerfed again, wait and see. I agree with this. Every time terrans find out about something, it gets nerfed. I got the feeling that the raven will be the next nerf target. The side effect of balancing a complete race with two incomplete ones. so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game Terran lacks early beefy units. Terran lacks early casters. Terran lacks mobile versatile units. Terran lacks versatile production facilities. Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. Terran lacks fast remax options. Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Are you seriously complaining that Terran lacks melee? Range is always better...stop trolling. Marauder is plenty Beefy nobody has an offensive caster early game Hellions are plenty mobile, Marines are plenty mobile and versatile Planetary is pretty damn cheap for it's firepower, splash damage. I agree with this, but the problem can be mitigated with more barracks/reactors .Terrible balance whines. Terran WAS the most complete race in SC2 but after all the nerfs it is not how it used to be. Lots of these units only serve for 1 purpose or isnt really used at all (raven, reaper, BC). The main problem with terran is they lack strong tier 3 options, and snipe is a late game nerf which only going to weaken the already weak terran late game. And why the hell did blizzard nerf BC damage again? (way back in the first patch) People need to stop talking about tiers, the only race that even really has tiers is Zerg. The term is poorly defined and meaningless, and it pressupposes that lower tier units are less useful, which is clearly not the case. We've been seeing more battlecruiser transitions in the GSL lately (TvP in particular, strangely enough), and the thor is a very powerful unit in any mech based play (or in marine/tank against zerg). Ravens have been showing up more and more as a support unit for mech armies in TvT and TvZ, and seeker missile has been used in some very high level games to deal with brood lord/corrupter. They nerfed BC damage because it was too powerful against protoss, BC's were rolling over armies of stalkers. Terran tech units are very powerful but they require babysitting, so most terrans don't want to bother with the effort when they haven't had to up until now. Problem with the Terran tech units is the missing synergy between Bio. Especially the Upgrades you need to go Bio as your main units ( else you die ) its that simple so you will need to get upgrades for them but that means your tech units will lack upgrades . So for a proper tech switch away from Bio the Terran would need time he normally hasn't . You can't just mix in 0-0/1-0 BC's or Thors they get wrecked by anything with 3-3 . BC's do well once the Terran reaches high enough Air upgrades for the Vikings but before that mixing them in makes 0 sense.
Generally, if the game goes long, Terran get air upgrades for vikings to help deal with upgraded colossi or brood lords, and they get them in TvT because the pure air army is the ultimate TvT endgame anyway. Once you've already got +3 air weapons, it's not that difficult to extend that a little further with a switch to a more heavy air composition and get air armor upgrades too, and we've been seeing that in the GSL lately in long TvPs with Battlecruisers.
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On February 14 2012 05:47 Torra wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 04:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:
[quote]
I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted.. Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense. Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it. The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos. Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack. And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army. Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing. For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right? At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)... You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice. What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up. And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs. The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming. Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons. Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon) 1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop. 2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind. You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes. The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point? I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom. 1. Ur most likely dead before u can get enough ravens. 2. Fungal, corruptors can kill them before they even get in range to do HSM. 3. Split BLs? It's actally possible. Just like zergs do in late game PvZ with BLs vs. Mothership.
1. But you have plenty of time to get 15+ ghosts. Oooookay...
2 and 3. That's the dance buddy. Where the men are separated from the boys. And all that. If the zerg can split their BL, control their corruptors and snap fungal your raven before the HSM can get off all while avoiding your viking volleys and not letting thors get free hits or ghosts sniping infestors or marines stimming in and cutting down half their air-force then maybe they're a better player? CRAZY TALK!
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United States7483 Posts
On February 14 2012 06:04 Remi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 04:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:On February 14 2012 02:20 chadissilent wrote:
[quote]
I didn't know you had to build a second CC to protect your expansion. Line of them. Right across the middle of the map. Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted.. Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense. Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it. The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos. Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack. And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army. Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing. For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right? At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)... You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice. What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up. And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs. The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming. Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons. Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon) 1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop. 2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind. You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes. The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point? I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom. But does HSM works against Ultra? And if not, what do you propose Terran should do with ultra switch?
HSM doesn't, but auto-turret walls with marine/tank support do pretty well, you can actually dump auto-turrets to create chokes. With building armor upgraded they do hilariously well at slowing down the zerg ground army and getting a few extra tank volleys off. The ultras can kill the turrets in about 5-10 seconds, but that extra time with the huge DPS of the terran ground army is astounding.
Plus, auto-turrets last like... 4 minutes with the upgrade, and they do decent damage. Just create a wall to block off the ultras and lings from reaching your siege tanks, and make a few marauders or thors (thors are fantastic vs. ultras, especially with strike cannon, and zerg doesn't have an anti-caster unit).
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On February 14 2012 06:05 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 00:57 s3rp wrote:On February 14 2012 00:40 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 00:32 fishinguy wrote:On February 13 2012 23:49 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:02 jsdk wrote:On February 13 2012 21:57 Snowbear wrote:
[quote]
I agree with this. Every time terrans find out about something, it gets nerfed. I got the feeling that the raven will be the next nerf target. The side effect of balancing a complete race with two incomplete ones. so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game Terran lacks early beefy units. Terran lacks early casters. Terran lacks mobile versatile units. Terran lacks versatile production facilities. Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. Terran lacks fast remax options. Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Are you seriously complaining that Terran lacks melee? Range is always better...stop trolling. Marauder is plenty Beefy nobody has an offensive caster early game Hellions are plenty mobile, Marines are plenty mobile and versatile Planetary is pretty damn cheap for it's firepower, splash damage. I agree with this, but the problem can be mitigated with more barracks/reactors .Terrible balance whines. Terran WAS the most complete race in SC2 but after all the nerfs it is not how it used to be. Lots of these units only serve for 1 purpose or isnt really used at all (raven, reaper, BC). The main problem with terran is they lack strong tier 3 options, and snipe is a late game nerf which only going to weaken the already weak terran late game. And why the hell did blizzard nerf BC damage again? (way back in the first patch) People need to stop talking about tiers, the only race that even really has tiers is Zerg. The term is poorly defined and meaningless, and it pressupposes that lower tier units are less useful, which is clearly not the case. We've been seeing more battlecruiser transitions in the GSL lately (TvP in particular, strangely enough), and the thor is a very powerful unit in any mech based play (or in marine/tank against zerg). Ravens have been showing up more and more as a support unit for mech armies in TvT and TvZ, and seeker missile has been used in some very high level games to deal with brood lord/corrupter. They nerfed BC damage because it was too powerful against protoss, BC's were rolling over armies of stalkers. Terran tech units are very powerful but they require babysitting, so most terrans don't want to bother with the effort when they haven't had to up until now. Problem with the Terran tech units is the missing synergy between Bio. Especially the Upgrades you need to go Bio as your main units ( else you die ) its that simple so you will need to get upgrades for them but that means your tech units will lack upgrades . So for a proper tech switch away from Bio the Terran would need time he normally hasn't . You can't just mix in 0-0/1-0 BC's or Thors they get wrecked by anything with 3-3 . BC's do well once the Terran reaches high enough Air upgrades for the Vikings but before that mixing them in makes 0 sense. Generally, if the game goes long, Terran get air upgrades for vikings to help deal with upgraded colossi or brood lords, and they get them in TvT because the pure air army is the ultimate TvT endgame anyway. Once you've already got +3 air weapons, it's not that difficult to extend that a little further with a switch to a more heavy air composition and get air armor upgrades too, and we've been seeing that in the GSL lately in long TvPs with Battlecruisers.
I can't say with certainty for TvZ but every TvP I've seen go to late game terran is floating well over 2k gas. Anyone who claims this 'synergy' BS is full of it. They don't get the upgrades cause they don't get the units, not the other way around.
The armoury is sitting there all game long. The resources are available. People don't get the upgrades because they have no intention of getting the units. If they had a late game tech switch planned out then they could easily do it.
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On February 14 2012 05:56 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 05:13 XiGua wrote:On February 14 2012 05:10 s3rp wrote:On February 14 2012 05:03 freetgy wrote:On February 14 2012 04:43 Snowbear wrote:On February 14 2012 04:41 nimdil wrote:
Mule's should be removed. Call Down SCV would be good enough of a bonus.
How can you even think something like this. Terrans are NOT dominating at all, especially not in EU and NA. Imagine mules (worth 6 scvs) being replaced by 1 scv. I really don't understand how you dare to say something like this. You act like terran is an imbalanced race, and meanwhile it actually isnt. facepalm... he obviously means to call down equivalent amount of scvs for a mule .... Still Chronoboost and Larva Inject ( which both kinda are the Toss/Zerg equivalent ) would be soooo much better since they don't exclusively work on Economy. That would make Terrans economy management even worse . What? You get 6 scvs for FREE and you still complain?! WTF, you will have full saturation on all bases after 500-600 energy and 0 scvs manually built from CC. Talk about heaven for Terran... The thing is, Mules don't let you make an army faster. :d So Terran can make a big army because they don't need scv, but they ain"t flexible at all at this stage of the game because they remax almost twice as slow as protoss and terran. That's why Ghost are great in lategame TvZ, they're good a lot of thing. And that's the core of Terran, polyvalent units.
MULEs don't let you make an army faster?
I must not understand what you mean... Higher income = you can build units sooner, right? Heck, you can even build more unit-producing structures to make many more units sooner...
What do you mean MULEs don't let you make an army faster? How does an automatic 300 minerals not let you make an army faster?
You can even free up supply (kill off SCVs) in the late game and mine with mostly MULEs so that you can make a bigger army, thanks to MULEs... you can't do that with Zerg or Protoss...
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On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:02 jsdk wrote:On February 13 2012 21:57 Snowbear wrote:On February 13 2012 20:53 fishinguy wrote:
T players will now start doing some other strategy, P and Z will whine more and T will get nerfed again, wait and see. I agree with this. Every time terrans find out about something, it gets nerfed. I got the feeling that the raven will be the next nerf target. The side effect of balancing a complete race with two incomplete ones. so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. This is essentially true, but Blizzard balanced it by ensuring Terran has no late game. So yes, Terran is the most complete race up until about the 15 minute mark where it steadily becomes the most incomplete race.
And before I hear the nonsensical responeses:
No, the Raven is not very usefull. It's referred to as the flying baneling for a reason, it' has a habit of being used once then dying.
No, the Battle Cruiser is not a good late game unit, it is too slow, too expensive, doesn't do splash and take 90s to build. It's not a good unit.
No, Thors are not a great late game unit. They're essentially anti-muta help. Thats it.
Granted the Ghost was terrans late game, but true to form, Blizzard is ensuring Terran has not much of a late game and nurfing (AGAIN) Terrans only viable late game help.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 14 2012 06:12 Kharnage wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:05 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 00:57 s3rp wrote:On February 14 2012 00:40 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 00:32 fishinguy wrote:On February 13 2012 23:49 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 22:02 jsdk wrote:
[quote]
The side effect of balancing a complete race with two incomplete ones. so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game Terran lacks early beefy units. Terran lacks early casters. Terran lacks mobile versatile units. Terran lacks versatile production facilities. Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. Terran lacks fast remax options. Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Are you seriously complaining that Terran lacks melee? Range is always better...stop trolling. Marauder is plenty Beefy nobody has an offensive caster early game Hellions are plenty mobile, Marines are plenty mobile and versatile Planetary is pretty damn cheap for it's firepower, splash damage. I agree with this, but the problem can be mitigated with more barracks/reactors .Terrible balance whines. Terran WAS the most complete race in SC2 but after all the nerfs it is not how it used to be. Lots of these units only serve for 1 purpose or isnt really used at all (raven, reaper, BC). The main problem with terran is they lack strong tier 3 options, and snipe is a late game nerf which only going to weaken the already weak terran late game. And why the hell did blizzard nerf BC damage again? (way back in the first patch) People need to stop talking about tiers, the only race that even really has tiers is Zerg. The term is poorly defined and meaningless, and it pressupposes that lower tier units are less useful, which is clearly not the case. We've been seeing more battlecruiser transitions in the GSL lately (TvP in particular, strangely enough), and the thor is a very powerful unit in any mech based play (or in marine/tank against zerg). Ravens have been showing up more and more as a support unit for mech armies in TvT and TvZ, and seeker missile has been used in some very high level games to deal with brood lord/corrupter. They nerfed BC damage because it was too powerful against protoss, BC's were rolling over armies of stalkers. Terran tech units are very powerful but they require babysitting, so most terrans don't want to bother with the effort when they haven't had to up until now. Problem with the Terran tech units is the missing synergy between Bio. Especially the Upgrades you need to go Bio as your main units ( else you die ) its that simple so you will need to get upgrades for them but that means your tech units will lack upgrades . So for a proper tech switch away from Bio the Terran would need time he normally hasn't . You can't just mix in 0-0/1-0 BC's or Thors they get wrecked by anything with 3-3 . BC's do well once the Terran reaches high enough Air upgrades for the Vikings but before that mixing them in makes 0 sense. Generally, if the game goes long, Terran get air upgrades for vikings to help deal with upgraded colossi or brood lords, and they get them in TvT because the pure air army is the ultimate TvT endgame anyway. Once you've already got +3 air weapons, it's not that difficult to extend that a little further with a switch to a more heavy air composition and get air armor upgrades too, and we've been seeing that in the GSL lately in long TvPs with Battlecruisers. I can't say with certainty for TvZ but every TvP I've seen go to late game terran is floating well over 2k gas. Anyone who claims this 'synergy' BS is full of it. They don't get the upgrades cause they don't get the units, not the other way around. The armoury is sitting there all game long. The resources are available. People don't get the upgrades because they have no intention of getting the units. If they had a late game tech switch planned out then they could easily do it.
You're right, a lot of players don't do it, but we've been seeing it more and more recently, and top terrans almost always get +air weapons for their vikings vs. protoss now in long games. BC switches aren't common, but they are popping up occasionally, and even in Code S/A.
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On February 14 2012 06:17 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:12 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 06:05 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 00:57 s3rp wrote:On February 14 2012 00:40 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 00:32 fishinguy wrote:On February 13 2012 23:49 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 22:22 Big J wrote:
[quote]
so how is Terran complete and the other ones incomplete? Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on. Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units Protoss lacks early game splash damage Protoss lacks harassment options Protoss lacks good splash for antiair Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game Terran lacks early beefy units. Terran lacks early casters. Terran lacks mobile versatile units. Terran lacks versatile production facilities. Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. Terran lacks fast remax options. Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Are you seriously complaining that Terran lacks melee? Range is always better...stop trolling. Marauder is plenty Beefy nobody has an offensive caster early game Hellions are plenty mobile, Marines are plenty mobile and versatile Planetary is pretty damn cheap for it's firepower, splash damage. I agree with this, but the problem can be mitigated with more barracks/reactors .Terrible balance whines. Terran WAS the most complete race in SC2 but after all the nerfs it is not how it used to be. Lots of these units only serve for 1 purpose or isnt really used at all (raven, reaper, BC). The main problem with terran is they lack strong tier 3 options, and snipe is a late game nerf which only going to weaken the already weak terran late game. And why the hell did blizzard nerf BC damage again? (way back in the first patch) People need to stop talking about tiers, the only race that even really has tiers is Zerg. The term is poorly defined and meaningless, and it pressupposes that lower tier units are less useful, which is clearly not the case. We've been seeing more battlecruiser transitions in the GSL lately (TvP in particular, strangely enough), and the thor is a very powerful unit in any mech based play (or in marine/tank against zerg). Ravens have been showing up more and more as a support unit for mech armies in TvT and TvZ, and seeker missile has been used in some very high level games to deal with brood lord/corrupter. They nerfed BC damage because it was too powerful against protoss, BC's were rolling over armies of stalkers. Terran tech units are very powerful but they require babysitting, so most terrans don't want to bother with the effort when they haven't had to up until now. Problem with the Terran tech units is the missing synergy between Bio. Especially the Upgrades you need to go Bio as your main units ( else you die ) its that simple so you will need to get upgrades for them but that means your tech units will lack upgrades . So for a proper tech switch away from Bio the Terran would need time he normally hasn't . You can't just mix in 0-0/1-0 BC's or Thors they get wrecked by anything with 3-3 . BC's do well once the Terran reaches high enough Air upgrades for the Vikings but before that mixing them in makes 0 sense. Generally, if the game goes long, Terran get air upgrades for vikings to help deal with upgraded colossi or brood lords, and they get them in TvT because the pure air army is the ultimate TvT endgame anyway. Once you've already got +3 air weapons, it's not that difficult to extend that a little further with a switch to a more heavy air composition and get air armor upgrades too, and we've been seeing that in the GSL lately in long TvPs with Battlecruisers. I can't say with certainty for TvZ but every TvP I've seen go to late game terran is floating well over 2k gas. Anyone who claims this 'synergy' BS is full of it. They don't get the upgrades cause they don't get the units, not the other way around. The armoury is sitting there all game long. The resources are available. People don't get the upgrades because they have no intention of getting the units. If they had a late game tech switch planned out then they could easily do it. You're right, a lot of players don't do it, but we've been seeing it more and more recently, and top terrans almost always get +air weapons for their vikings vs. protoss now in long games. BC switches aren't common, but they are popping up occasionally, and even in Code S.
Yeah, Ryung made BCs against Tassadar and it worked pretty well.
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On February 14 2012 06:08 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:04 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 04:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:On February 14 2012 02:26 Lightspeaker wrote:
[quote]
Line of them. Right across the middle of the map.
Terran version of the Maginot Line. ^_^ Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_> Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes? EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted.. Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense. Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it. The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos. Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack. And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army. Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing. For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right? At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)... You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice. What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up. And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs. The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming. Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons. Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon) 1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop. 2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind. You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes. The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point? I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom. But does HSM works against Ultra? And if not, what do you propose Terran should do with ultra switch? HSM doesn't, but auto-turret walls with marine/tank support do pretty well, you can actually dump auto-turrets to create chokes. With building armor upgraded they do hilariously well at slowing down the zerg ground army and getting a few extra tank volleys off. The ultras can kill the turrets in about 5-10 seconds, but that extra time with the huge DPS of the terran ground army is astounding. Plus, auto-turrets last like... 4 minutes with the upgrade, and they do decent damage. Just create a wall to block off the ultras and lings from reaching your siege tanks, and make a few marauders or thors (thors are fantastic vs. ultras, especially with strike cannon, and zerg doesn't have an anti-caster unit).
Great, now we are expected to deals with ultras with... auto-turrets, now that's the plan all terrans can get behind, terrific.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 14 2012 06:24 Remi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:08 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:04 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 04:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 02:27 tnud wrote:
[quote]
Yea a PF at your natural is a valid strat >_>
Terran doesn't have a good ground defence (lategame, can't have army in bunkers..), guess what that HotS unit fixes?
EDIT: This is more referencing the post you quoted.. Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense. Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it. The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos. Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack. And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army. Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing. For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right? At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)... You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice. What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up. And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs. The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming. Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons. Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon) 1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop. 2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind. You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes. The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point? I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom. But does HSM works against Ultra? And if not, what do you propose Terran should do with ultra switch? HSM doesn't, but auto-turret walls with marine/tank support do pretty well, you can actually dump auto-turrets to create chokes. With building armor upgraded they do hilariously well at slowing down the zerg ground army and getting a few extra tank volleys off. The ultras can kill the turrets in about 5-10 seconds, but that extra time with the huge DPS of the terran ground army is astounding. Plus, auto-turrets last like... 4 minutes with the upgrade, and they do decent damage. Just create a wall to block off the ultras and lings from reaching your siege tanks, and make a few marauders or thors (thors are fantastic vs. ultras, especially with strike cannon, and zerg doesn't have an anti-caster unit). Great, now we are expected to deals with ultras with... auto-turrets, now that's the plan all terrans can get behind, terrific.
You misunderstand: I wasn't telling you that you have to do it, obviously you could make marauders, or any number of other things. I was suggesting a way that ravens could help significantly against ultras, that most people don't try. I have seen a few games where it was done, and it seemed pretty effective in combination with good army positioning. Drop 12 turrets off of 6 ravens and create walls, and laugh as the lings and ultras can't even reach your marines and tanks.
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On February 14 2012 06:23 Bashion wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:17 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:12 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 06:05 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 00:57 s3rp wrote:On February 14 2012 00:40 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 00:32 fishinguy wrote:On February 13 2012 23:49 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:On February 13 2012 23:22 neoghaleon55 wrote:
[quote]
Because Terran has all options available to them, and early on.
Zerg lacks sieging weapon until late late game
Zerg lacks anti armor until late late game...and the ultralisk sucks in Wings of Liberty
Zerg lacks cheap early game anti air units
Protoss lacks early game splash damage
Protoss lacks harassment options
Protoss lacks good splash for antiair
Seriously, even David Kim and Dustin Browder went over these at Blizzcon. Terran lacks melee units... all game Terran lacks early beefy units. Terran lacks early casters. Terran lacks mobile versatile units. Terran lacks versatile production facilities. Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense. Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades. Terran lacks fast remax options. Terran lacks fast reinforcement options. ... Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Are you seriously complaining that Terran lacks melee? Range is always better...stop trolling. Marauder is plenty Beefy nobody has an offensive caster early game Hellions are plenty mobile, Marines are plenty mobile and versatile Planetary is pretty damn cheap for it's firepower, splash damage. I agree with this, but the problem can be mitigated with more barracks/reactors .Terrible balance whines. Terran WAS the most complete race in SC2 but after all the nerfs it is not how it used to be. Lots of these units only serve for 1 purpose or isnt really used at all (raven, reaper, BC). The main problem with terran is they lack strong tier 3 options, and snipe is a late game nerf which only going to weaken the already weak terran late game. And why the hell did blizzard nerf BC damage again? (way back in the first patch) People need to stop talking about tiers, the only race that even really has tiers is Zerg. The term is poorly defined and meaningless, and it pressupposes that lower tier units are less useful, which is clearly not the case. We've been seeing more battlecruiser transitions in the GSL lately (TvP in particular, strangely enough), and the thor is a very powerful unit in any mech based play (or in marine/tank against zerg). Ravens have been showing up more and more as a support unit for mech armies in TvT and TvZ, and seeker missile has been used in some very high level games to deal with brood lord/corrupter. They nerfed BC damage because it was too powerful against protoss, BC's were rolling over armies of stalkers. Terran tech units are very powerful but they require babysitting, so most terrans don't want to bother with the effort when they haven't had to up until now. Problem with the Terran tech units is the missing synergy between Bio. Especially the Upgrades you need to go Bio as your main units ( else you die ) its that simple so you will need to get upgrades for them but that means your tech units will lack upgrades . So for a proper tech switch away from Bio the Terran would need time he normally hasn't . You can't just mix in 0-0/1-0 BC's or Thors they get wrecked by anything with 3-3 . BC's do well once the Terran reaches high enough Air upgrades for the Vikings but before that mixing them in makes 0 sense. Generally, if the game goes long, Terran get air upgrades for vikings to help deal with upgraded colossi or brood lords, and they get them in TvT because the pure air army is the ultimate TvT endgame anyway. Once you've already got +3 air weapons, it's not that difficult to extend that a little further with a switch to a more heavy air composition and get air armor upgrades too, and we've been seeing that in the GSL lately in long TvPs with Battlecruisers. I can't say with certainty for TvZ but every TvP I've seen go to late game terran is floating well over 2k gas. Anyone who claims this 'synergy' BS is full of it. They don't get the upgrades cause they don't get the units, not the other way around. The armoury is sitting there all game long. The resources are available. People don't get the upgrades because they have no intention of getting the units. If they had a late game tech switch planned out then they could easily do it. You're right, a lot of players don't do it, but we've been seeing it more and more recently, and top terrans almost always get +air weapons for their vikings vs. protoss now in long games. BC switches aren't common, but they are popping up occasionally, and even in Code S. Yeah, Ryung made BCs against Tassadar and it worked pretty well.
On a Map big enough and if you manage to get enough bases yes. If not thats not going to work and no 3 Bases is not enough for this you need 4-5 Bases. Against Zerg though BC's are bad not only do they get hardcountered by Corrupters but just about every Zerg Unit can just outrun a BC . There's no way to ever engage counter attacking lings/roaches/banes etc with BC's until he has enough Corrupter out to kill your BC's
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On February 14 2012 06:27 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:24 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:08 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:04 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 04:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense. Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it. The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos. Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack. And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army. Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing. For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right? At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)... You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice. What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up. And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs. The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming. Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons. Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon) 1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop. 2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind. You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes. The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point? I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom. But does HSM works against Ultra? And if not, what do you propose Terran should do with ultra switch? HSM doesn't, but auto-turret walls with marine/tank support do pretty well, you can actually dump auto-turrets to create chokes. With building armor upgraded they do hilariously well at slowing down the zerg ground army and getting a few extra tank volleys off. The ultras can kill the turrets in about 5-10 seconds, but that extra time with the huge DPS of the terran ground army is astounding. Plus, auto-turrets last like... 4 minutes with the upgrade, and they do decent damage. Just create a wall to block off the ultras and lings from reaching your siege tanks, and make a few marauders or thors (thors are fantastic vs. ultras, especially with strike cannon, and zerg doesn't have an anti-caster unit). Great, now we are expected to deals with ultras with... auto-turrets, now that's the plan all terrans can get behind, terrific. You misunderstand: I wasn't telling you that you have to do it, obviously you could make marauders, or any number of other things. I was suggesting a way that ravens could help significantly against ultras, that most people don't try. I have seen a few games where it was done, and it seemed pretty effective in combination with good army positioning. Drop 12 turrets off of 6 ravens and create walls, and laugh as the lings and ultras can't even reach your marines and tanks.
Autoturrests are armored right ? Ultras will kill them in 2 or 3 hits then ? Don't think this works so well.
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On February 14 2012 06:27 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:24 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:08 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:04 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 04:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:30 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Why do you need late game ground defense at your natural in the first place? One sensor tower (or more if you'd like, three will cover your half of the map), and then 2-4 vikings to chase down a warp prism and you'll never ever ever get dropped on by Protoss. A few turrets for air defense in case of a multi-pronged attack or doom drop too (cannons don't really protect against doom drops or medivacs either- they only buy time). Keep a few marines patrolling back and forth between your natural and main if you'd like too, in case of an emergency. It's practically no supply. For late game, PFs can't be beaten at your later expansions for ground defense. Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it. The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos. Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack. And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army. Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing. For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right? At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)... You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice. What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up. And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs. The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming. Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons. Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon) 1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop. 2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind. You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes. The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point? I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom. But does HSM works against Ultra? And if not, what do you propose Terran should do with ultra switch? HSM doesn't, but auto-turret walls with marine/tank support do pretty well, you can actually dump auto-turrets to create chokes. With building armor upgraded they do hilariously well at slowing down the zerg ground army and getting a few extra tank volleys off. The ultras can kill the turrets in about 5-10 seconds, but that extra time with the huge DPS of the terran ground army is astounding. Plus, auto-turrets last like... 4 minutes with the upgrade, and they do decent damage. Just create a wall to block off the ultras and lings from reaching your siege tanks, and make a few marauders or thors (thors are fantastic vs. ultras, especially with strike cannon, and zerg doesn't have an anti-caster unit). Great, now we are expected to deals with ultras with... auto-turrets, now that's the plan all terrans can get behind, terrific. You misunderstand: I wasn't telling you that you have to do it, obviously you could make marauders, or any number of other things. I was suggesting a way that ravens could help significantly against ultras, that most people don't try. I have seen a few games where it was done, and it seemed pretty effective in combination with good army positioning. Drop 12 turrets off of 6 ravens and create walls, and laugh as the lings and ultras can't even reach your marines and tanks.
I just don't understand why zergs could not deal with late game ghost with infested terrans or any other obsolete strategy, no snipe had to be nerfed, strange.
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On February 14 2012 06:28 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:23 Bashion wrote:On February 14 2012 06:17 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:12 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 06:05 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 00:57 s3rp wrote:On February 14 2012 00:40 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 00:32 fishinguy wrote:On February 13 2012 23:49 neoghaleon55 wrote:On February 13 2012 23:44 Big J wrote:
[quote]
Terran lacks melee units... all game
Terran lacks early beefy units.
Terran lacks early casters.
Terran lacks mobile versatile units.
Terran lacks versatile production facilities.
Terran lacks cheap nonsupply antiground defense.
Terran lacks versatile unit upgrades.
Terran lacks fast remax options.
Terran lacks fast reinforcement options.
...
Seriously, especially David Kim and Dustin Browder know that the game would be super boring if every race could play the same strategies just with different units. Are you seriously complaining that Terran lacks melee? Range is always better...stop trolling. Marauder is plenty Beefy nobody has an offensive caster early game Hellions are plenty mobile, Marines are plenty mobile and versatile Planetary is pretty damn cheap for it's firepower, splash damage. I agree with this, but the problem can be mitigated with more barracks/reactors .Terrible balance whines. Terran WAS the most complete race in SC2 but after all the nerfs it is not how it used to be. Lots of these units only serve for 1 purpose or isnt really used at all (raven, reaper, BC). The main problem with terran is they lack strong tier 3 options, and snipe is a late game nerf which only going to weaken the already weak terran late game. And why the hell did blizzard nerf BC damage again? (way back in the first patch) People need to stop talking about tiers, the only race that even really has tiers is Zerg. The term is poorly defined and meaningless, and it pressupposes that lower tier units are less useful, which is clearly not the case. We've been seeing more battlecruiser transitions in the GSL lately (TvP in particular, strangely enough), and the thor is a very powerful unit in any mech based play (or in marine/tank against zerg). Ravens have been showing up more and more as a support unit for mech armies in TvT and TvZ, and seeker missile has been used in some very high level games to deal with brood lord/corrupter. They nerfed BC damage because it was too powerful against protoss, BC's were rolling over armies of stalkers. Terran tech units are very powerful but they require babysitting, so most terrans don't want to bother with the effort when they haven't had to up until now. Problem with the Terran tech units is the missing synergy between Bio. Especially the Upgrades you need to go Bio as your main units ( else you die ) its that simple so you will need to get upgrades for them but that means your tech units will lack upgrades . So for a proper tech switch away from Bio the Terran would need time he normally hasn't . You can't just mix in 0-0/1-0 BC's or Thors they get wrecked by anything with 3-3 . BC's do well once the Terran reaches high enough Air upgrades for the Vikings but before that mixing them in makes 0 sense. Generally, if the game goes long, Terran get air upgrades for vikings to help deal with upgraded colossi or brood lords, and they get them in TvT because the pure air army is the ultimate TvT endgame anyway. Once you've already got +3 air weapons, it's not that difficult to extend that a little further with a switch to a more heavy air composition and get air armor upgrades too, and we've been seeing that in the GSL lately in long TvPs with Battlecruisers. I can't say with certainty for TvZ but every TvP I've seen go to late game terran is floating well over 2k gas. Anyone who claims this 'synergy' BS is full of it. They don't get the upgrades cause they don't get the units, not the other way around. The armoury is sitting there all game long. The resources are available. People don't get the upgrades because they have no intention of getting the units. If they had a late game tech switch planned out then they could easily do it. You're right, a lot of players don't do it, but we've been seeing it more and more recently, and top terrans almost always get +air weapons for their vikings vs. protoss now in long games. BC switches aren't common, but they are popping up occasionally, and even in Code S. Yeah, Ryung made BCs against Tassadar and it worked pretty well. On a Map big enough and if you manage to get enough bases yes. If not thats not going to work and no 3 Bases is not enough for this you need 4-5 Bases. Against Zerg though BC's are bad not did they get hardcountered by Corrupters but just about every Zerg Unit can just outrun a BC . There's no way to ever engage counter attacking lings/roaches/banes etc with BC's .
I agree. It was on Calm before the storm. If im not mistaken, it was used by someone on Daybreak too.
I think HT's shouldnt be able to feedback massive units. It would make thors and BCs more viable, maybe.
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United States7483 Posts
On February 14 2012 06:29 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:27 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:24 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:08 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:04 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 04:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:
[quote]
Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it.
The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos.
Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack.
And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army.
Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing. For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right? At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)... You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice. What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up. And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs. The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming. Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons. Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon) 1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop. 2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind. You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes. The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point? I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom. But does HSM works against Ultra? And if not, what do you propose Terran should do with ultra switch? HSM doesn't, but auto-turret walls with marine/tank support do pretty well, you can actually dump auto-turrets to create chokes. With building armor upgraded they do hilariously well at slowing down the zerg ground army and getting a few extra tank volleys off. The ultras can kill the turrets in about 5-10 seconds, but that extra time with the huge DPS of the terran ground army is astounding. Plus, auto-turrets last like... 4 minutes with the upgrade, and they do decent damage. Just create a wall to block off the ultras and lings from reaching your siege tanks, and make a few marauders or thors (thors are fantastic vs. ultras, especially with strike cannon, and zerg doesn't have an anti-caster unit). Great, now we are expected to deals with ultras with... auto-turrets, now that's the plan all terrans can get behind, terrific. You misunderstand: I wasn't telling you that you have to do it, obviously you could make marauders, or any number of other things. I was suggesting a way that ravens could help significantly against ultras, that most people don't try. I have seen a few games where it was done, and it seemed pretty effective in combination with good army positioning. Drop 12 turrets off of 6 ravens and create walls, and laugh as the lings and ultras can't even reach your marines and tanks. Autoturrests are armored right ? Ultras will kill them in 2 or 3 hits then ? Don't think this works so well.
The value isn't in how much damage the turrets do, but they're a strong force multiplier. Generally what happens when the fight starts is zerg runs in, tanks fire, marines shoot once or twice then get pulled back and split to avoid banelings or to avoid ling surrounds, then they engage again once they're safe while the tanks fire. Tanks get killed off, and then it's which army lives. With the turrets, you get an extra 5-10 seconds of your entire army shooting at the zerg force before you even have to worry about taking any damage at all. That's pretty significant, a large amount of zerg will die before anything terran dies.
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On February 14 2012 06:30 Remi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:27 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:24 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:08 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:04 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 04:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 03:34 zmansman17 wrote:
[quote]
Umm have you seen how quickly PFs go down in the late game even with full repair and the +2 armor upgrade? Or, even worse just send a stalker behind the mineral line and the +1 range won't be able to do anything about it.
The best Terran can hope for in PFing a later expansion is that the entire Toss army goes for it and this gives Terran some map control to take on Toss expos.
Also, the difference between leaving units in the base as Terran versus Toss is that Toss can blink stalkers down from main to natural or into the middle and that takes no time. There's also a large speed difference between 225 marines and stalkers. Where Toss may be able to quickly gather their army in the case of an attack, Terran would have a bunch of idle marines and vikings all over the map and would be taken by surprise during an attack.
And as a Rank 2 master Terran, I need ALL of my units to have a chance against a late game Toss army.
Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing. For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right? At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)... You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice. What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up. And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs. The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming. Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons. Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon) 1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop. 2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind. You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes. The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point? I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom. But does HSM works against Ultra? And if not, what do you propose Terran should do with ultra switch? HSM doesn't, but auto-turret walls with marine/tank support do pretty well, you can actually dump auto-turrets to create chokes. With building armor upgraded they do hilariously well at slowing down the zerg ground army and getting a few extra tank volleys off. The ultras can kill the turrets in about 5-10 seconds, but that extra time with the huge DPS of the terran ground army is astounding. Plus, auto-turrets last like... 4 minutes with the upgrade, and they do decent damage. Just create a wall to block off the ultras and lings from reaching your siege tanks, and make a few marauders or thors (thors are fantastic vs. ultras, especially with strike cannon, and zerg doesn't have an anti-caster unit). Great, now we are expected to deals with ultras with... auto-turrets, now that's the plan all terrans can get behind, terrific. You misunderstand: I wasn't telling you that you have to do it, obviously you could make marauders, or any number of other things. I was suggesting a way that ravens could help significantly against ultras, that most people don't try. I have seen a few games where it was done, and it seemed pretty effective in combination with good army positioning. Drop 12 turrets off of 6 ravens and create walls, and laugh as the lings and ultras can't even reach your marines and tanks. I just don't understand why zergs could not deal with late game ghost with infested terrans or any other obsolete strategy, no snipe had to be nerfed, strange.
Because the Ghost single handedly countered their every late game option. Go for infestors get ghosts, Ultras? Get ghosts! BL's? GHOSTS!
I think Blizz went a bit over the top with the amount of damage the nerfed. but something clearly needed to be done, one race shouldn't have a 1 unit counter to another races every late game option.
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On February 14 2012 06:36 Necro)Phagist( wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 06:30 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:27 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:24 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 06:08 Whitewing wrote:On February 14 2012 06:04 Remi wrote:On February 14 2012 05:24 Kharnage wrote:On February 14 2012 04:33 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On February 14 2012 04:08 zmansman17 wrote:On February 14 2012 03:46 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
[quote]
Oh, you wanted a Terran defensive structure that was actually invincible? My bad, I got nothing.
For what it's worth, feel free to compare the strengths and defenses of PFs to cannons and spine crawlers. It's ridiculous to think that Terran should have one structure that literally cannot be beaten by a 200/200 late game army. Because ya know, by definition, you couldn't ever lose the game. Right?
At least you didn't complain about my sensor tower suggestion. How did the one stalker that foils the PF's mineral line even get there? I thought you had vision (and how will you ever kill one stalker!)...
You also discount the fact that Terran is far more than mobile than Protoss. Terran snipes expansions like nothing else, often times ignoring any defense that's even been put up. Cannons? Ignore, stim, snipe, leave. Protoss is extremely slow comparitively. As Terran, you can prepare for a slow push from the front or see the warp prism with proper patrolling, sensor towers, and missile turret placements. (And any units warped in can't be flown away.) And the fact that Terran can repair expansions does make it incredibly hard to take out expansions. Perhaps not against 8 colossi and 6 high templar, but it's pretty hard to pop a PF if the Terran is paying attention. I don't think you do your race justice. What you're ignoring is that it is much easier to shift click a probe and put down a bunch of cannons all over map and even on the fringes of your base to negate drop play (and thus negate the "mobility of the terran army" that you refer to). Note that even 2 cannons in an expo for Toss is more than enough to defend a 2 medivac drop late game. All the Protoss has to do is warp in a round of units and mop up. And that's assuming a few things: 1) that the drop made it safely into the base and didn't get shot down by cannons 2) there was no HT there to feedback the medivacs. The reality is late game Protoss can make a pretty impregnable defense and it's much faster and easier than having to cue Scvs to build CCs and then babysit them so the SCV doesn't get destroyed and then morph it into a PF. Granted, I play Protoss at Rank 2 master as well, so you can't convince me that it isn't way easier to shift click 1 probe and mass cannons all over the map then trying to deal with SCVs. There's a reason you don't see Terrans doing this more, it's because it's a multi step process and surprisingly time consuming. Also note that the time it takes to make an CC and then a PF (if the scv is not killed) is MUCH greater than dropping a pylon and a few cannons. Furthermore a PF can only attack ground whereas a cannon can attack air AND ground. And just as importantly, 3 cannons can cover MUCH MORE ground than 1 PF (but the PF is still more expensive, 550 minerals, 150 gas versus 550 minerals, including pylon) 1. While the ability to quickly queue buildings is surely an asset to Protoss, I can't recall a single game where the Terran purposely dropped two medivacs in the middle of my defense... let alone two cannons stopping a double medivac drop. Two cannons are going to stop two medivacs and the ten units that come out? You must be joking. Fact: A photon cannon will get killed by a single medivac drop. 2. Warping in a few units to simply *clean up a medivac drop* is easier said than done, especially if the Terran army is wedged behind the mineral line (which is often the case). And especially if there are two or three medivacs full of units. Zealots are useless because of the minerals and buildings in the way. Medivacs heal. Terran units can stim and micro. Warpgates might be on cooldown. High templar being warped in can't use storm. When a Terran drops, he's nearly guaranteed to snipe one or two vital tech structures (or even a nexus) unless there are an equivalent number of high templar waiting in each base and the player has perfect reaction time. And you're worried about throwing down a PF or a missile turret or leaving behind a few marines? Please. You're stuff is free and costs no supply compared to what Protoss has to possibly leave behind. You forgot to add that a late game protoss hasn't got the supply available to warp in units until terran kills something, most likely probes, and once you do wrap in some units you now need to get them killed so you can remake your probes. The thing that is confusing me however is that we're talking about a changes to XvZ, so how is TvP, which is largely unaffected by this patch, even a discussion point? I actually agree with QXC who pointed out that when snipe no longer 1 shots marines and reapers it's useless in TvT. Also it's 'bonus' dps vs zealots is lost too, and this was not the stated intention of the patch. This is the unfortunate by product of the way this patch addresses the issue. The parts we don't know are "Is negative damage bonus possible". Cause if '-20 damage to massive' is possible then what is being done is super stupid. The other thing QXC noted is that since he started using ghosts he hasn't bothered with ravens. HSM works vs BL. It does, don't lie and say 'but i have to risk my raven waa waa waa' HSM can make BL go boom. But does HSM works against Ultra? And if not, what do you propose Terran should do with ultra switch? HSM doesn't, but auto-turret walls with marine/tank support do pretty well, you can actually dump auto-turrets to create chokes. With building armor upgraded they do hilariously well at slowing down the zerg ground army and getting a few extra tank volleys off. The ultras can kill the turrets in about 5-10 seconds, but that extra time with the huge DPS of the terran ground army is astounding. Plus, auto-turrets last like... 4 minutes with the upgrade, and they do decent damage. Just create a wall to block off the ultras and lings from reaching your siege tanks, and make a few marauders or thors (thors are fantastic vs. ultras, especially with strike cannon, and zerg doesn't have an anti-caster unit). Great, now we are expected to deals with ultras with... auto-turrets, now that's the plan all terrans can get behind, terrific. You misunderstand: I wasn't telling you that you have to do it, obviously you could make marauders, or any number of other things. I was suggesting a way that ravens could help significantly against ultras, that most people don't try. I have seen a few games where it was done, and it seemed pretty effective in combination with good army positioning. Drop 12 turrets off of 6 ravens and create walls, and laugh as the lings and ultras can't even reach your marines and tanks. I just don't understand why zergs could not deal with late game ghost with infested terrans or any other obsolete strategy, no snipe had to be nerfed, strange. Because the Ghost single handedly countered their every late game option. Go for infestors get ghosts, Ultras? Get ghosts! BL's? GHOSTS! I think Blizz went a bit over the top with the amount of damage the nerfed. but something clearly needed to be done, one race shouldn't have a 1 unit counter to another races every late game option.
It's been stated many times before, but yes, terran does actually need ghost to deal with BLs/ultras/infestors. And it's actaully just a soft counter, not this auto-win button BS that zergs keep saying.
The reason is that zerg can remax so easily with a new composition, and the ghost is like the glue in the terran late game composition, which is pretty good against everything. Go read other posts about this where it's explained more detailed.
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