At the end of the day I feel the biggest obstacle to events and tournaments is in fact player streams Starcraft is not a team game so unlike NFL or NBA we can all sit down at almost anytime and watch one of our favorite players playing games they might not be super secret GSL builds but its Starcraft and I would rather watch 3 hours of just Huk, than try to watch 3 hours of an off night for an on line event with a bunch of bad players rolling over worse players.
To tell the truth I actually dont like MLGs and Dream Hack (Home story cup being the exception) because it means for a week I don't get to watch Huk stream I instead trade that for maybe 20 games at a tournaments, and maybe 2/3 of them even get casted so I have to watch a vod.
In league of legends there is only one big tournaments IEM, and its casted by riot emploeies and they do a horrid job. So all pro level content is brought to people from the players streams instead of watching a team league you watch two teams scrim and the end result is the best streamers making more money then starcraft pros even tho they have no sponsership salaries or huge prize pools for weekly events. LoL players actually lose money when they travel to events even if they get 2nd place in the event because they all make so much from streaming.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM.
Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong
Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket).
I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there.
I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol.
These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing)
But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else.
lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out.
LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point.
You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out .
Again, kids need to learn to read. If you think that being able to see someone's kitchen/den behind them professional while they cast then you're what i like to call clueless on whats professional/acceptable. I'll say it again, i'm not demanding anything. I'm telling the op why i don't think its worth my money because of certain things that are lacking. A demand is completely different. I'm sorry you completely fail to understand this. O well.O and by the way, your question is retarded. So what if they haven't been doing it as long or if there isn't as much money in it. If you still don't deliver something i think is worth it or that i deem acceptable then my money isn't going into someone else's pocket. Why even make excuses lol
Id say HOTS should be the big time where leagues unite and figure out something because that will be the next big boom, as of now its still sc2 vanilla like sc1 was before bw, gives time for companies to figure it out and it will be a big growth in new players coming in!
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I think there's this perception that companies are making money, but I doubt they are.
It's a tough spot. Monetize and people revolt and you die. Don't monetize and you slowly drown. I don't know how it's going to work. Maybe you have to completely level up the broadcast to a completely different place where people expect to pay for that quality? No idea.
Edit: No one seems to treat this as a business. There's a feeling things should be free because they want it to grow. Until we get past that and make it a business, it'll never be more than a niche market, which is fine, but it is what it is.
I agree with chill above, speaking as someone working within the machine without making money off it. Simply as he puts it similar to a charity model, based on your love of it.
The people at the top players and casters etc. are making money. The majority of everyone else making the machine work are doing it simply because they love it. The issue with that is you inevitably can only grow so much when people have to work a 9 to 5 to support their life and then go and do their passion in what time they have left.
This all leads to the conundrum chill pointed out above so eloquently. You need people to pay you for your content or have a lot of sponsor money to pay everyone enough to live off of from the top down. On the flip side how much can you actually charge people before they lose interest?
If you can't pay people from the top down, you only go so far such he pointed out. So, at the end of the day either huge sponsor money needs to roll in or they'd have to go to a pay system to truly allow people to be professionals at what they do. The sound guy, the video guy, the casters, the players...etc.etc.
Thus far I would say they are attempting to lure in the big sponsors to achieve that goal. At some point though that may not cut it and to put on a truly quality product it might be something they'd have to make people pay for.
Ok u want esports to be a real sport! All fine and dandy u gotta start somewhere and i guess subscriptions is the way to go and asking the community to start paying and make it into a flame war between company and people who are greedy and want it for free. That is already a bad start, its funny all these companies are talking about making money and the one company who could have made a boatload of money and if not for them many of these other companies and tournaments would be no where is TEAMLIQUID! Tl is by far the leaders in whats good for the community point finale! Now if you want to start making money, first of all make a group, second study early stages of professional sports, struggles, how they grew, the troubles they ran into, use history as a fucking guideline! 3rd look at past internet experiences when gaming was trying to grow, how it ran into road blocks and why it didn`t develop the way envisioned! 4th be fucking tactical and reasonable, dont be like u need to fucking subscribe to make sc2 work, fucking be marketable, give the public a reason to want to subscribe dont be like u have to for this work! 5th we all want the same thing as a community, sponsor, player and that is all that matters, have fun!
The most interesting thought would be whether market monopoly is actually a bad thing. I think there has been viable points made how increased monetization could result in a dominating share of the few existing major players, since an individual's money is finite and customer choice is likely to favor establishment. If anything, every parent organization of big sports is exactly the same kind of monopoly. FIFA, NBA, the Olympic Committee, etc. In fact, it would be the only reasonable way to install the level of universal regulation we have always wished for. Truth is, the surefire way to establish an acknowledged rule-set is to be the only one having to accept it.
However, what the critics didn't address yet is how this monopoly is being put into practice. What aforementioned major sport organizations have realized is to actively integrate several levels of structure. Money is being "poured top-down", there exists an accredited pathway to "climb up the ladder"- both player-wise and logistically. In a real world scenario, it would be exactly the cooperation between low, mid and high-tier tournaments within a coherent system we would like to see. It is mutually beneficial for all parties involved, as a starting point for aspiring casters and players to meddle in "regionals", as talent pool for the upper echelon to rely on.
However, there are several issues to be aware of. First is the balance of power, which is directly related to the previous paragraph. It puts a lot of trust in the few decision makers, and I for one am not ready to give that yet. There are still too many basic faux-pas happening, from production to tournament regulations. Second is permeability. The biggest single mistake would be not aggressively reach out for existing content providers. In that light, it still isn't understandable how GOM literally threw the Korean Weekly under the bus.
I had some other points in mind, but as I've pulled an all-nighter, my brain ceases to function....
After finding and listening to the audio of what LordJerith said, I've gained some respect for the guy and what he's asserting. But, LordJerith, do not shit on the community.
(Starts at 48 minutes)
This is the speech he's referencing throughout:
The difference between Mr. Ellison and Starcraft in esports is: 1. Growth of the scene majorly relies on individuals viewing free streams. If content is over-monetized or monetized incorrectly at this stage, it will just halt growth very quickly. 2. Mr. Ellison is being critical of Warner Bros, a big corporation demanding free work. We're talking about our community and primary source of growth.
UFC for example, while it is PPV, has many ways to view tournaments for free: in my experience it's always broadcasting at my gym, at the bar, etc. free to the user.
At this stage giving thought to creative business models that do not significantly sacrifice growth to implement is essential.
On February 10 2012 11:54 Elwar wrote: Simple answer is try it out and see what happens.
The most overused word on the internet at the moment seems to be 'entitlement' with people clamoring to tell everyone why they should expect less and less and be happy about it. It dawns on me that maybe e-sports organisations aren't entitled to any more profit per viewer than they're currently getting.
Try it, don't provide a free stream to your event and see what happens. Monetise everything to squeeze the last red cent from the viewers. If it falls flat on its face, well, theres already a system thats proven to work and if that doesn't generate enough profit for your liking, leave the industry. No one will care. If it works, you have your answer.
I agree with this. If you really believe it will work then do it.
On February 10 2012 10:50 RoboBob wrote: Yeah, that VVV guy has no clue what he's talking about.
Yes, I'm sure a guy who runs a very successful gaming organization has no idea what he's on about, while you, a guy on a forum, have all the answers.
VVV isn't quite like your fnatic or SK, it's a very different model. And Lord Jerith has many a time said extremely controversial things, going out of line crapping on old games (counter-strike...), dissing on games because of graphics (hello scbw) and so on. Do your own research before blindly appealing to authority.
I just wanted to add something else to this thread, even though it has a lot of content in it already. The idea that we should "stop feeling entitled (to everything for free)" and if we don't pay for events we're "not supporting eSports", it's a flawed one. If eSports is to be a legitimate business, they can't work off of the community's charity. I don't pay for the GSL because I feel bad and want to keep eSports going financially, I do it because the content I receive is worth it for me. That is the way it works for every product and every business; the burden is on them to put forward a product that consumers should want to pay for, with a business model that will keep them profitable.
It's not right to accuse naysayers in this thread of being greedy and unwilling to pay for things. They all have their reasons. If the desire does not exist for a PPV model to be profitable in SC2, then it won't happen, and it's not the fault of the fans. Put forward a good product at a fair price and people will buy it.
On February 10 2012 11:54 Elwar wrote: Simple answer is try it out and see what happens.
The most overused word on the internet at the moment seems to be 'entitlement' with people clamoring to tell everyone why they should expect less and less and be happy about it. It dawns on me that maybe e-sports organisations aren't entitled to any more profit per viewer than they're currently getting.
Try it, don't provide a free stream to your event and see what happens. Monetise everything to squeeze the last red cent from the viewers. If it falls flat on its face, well, theres already a system thats proven to work and if that doesn't generate enough profit for your liking, leave the industry. No one will care. If it works, you have your answer.
I also agree with this.
I also think that a lot of people in the so-called "industry" underestimate how much of the revenue they get they only get from sympathy and passion of the fans, rather than because somebody would pay as much for the actual product if they didn't feel a personal connection of sorts with the people behind and what they do. The "charity" actually goes both ways because on both sides there are people who are passionate about it and care for the game and the competition and will invest their time and/or money that they otherwise wouldn't. It is the ONLY fuel that keeps SC2 as an esport going and what made it go this far.
So I would advise caution before calling the fans out for "entitlement" and "receiving charity". It only takes a few people to start it off for GSL to be torrent-able every day, yet we don't do it even though GSL is terribly overpriced. People only need to turn their ad-blockers on and remove exceptions for TL/twitch and advertising revenue goes away, but we don't do it and we sit through the commercials that we have no personal interest in watching. And both of these are very commonplace practices on the internet, especially among the mostly technically savvy audience such as this community.
Running PPV model in such small market as eSports ? Are you guys serious ? The PPV model is suitable for extremely popular events (UFC as example) where many people will pay to watch and you are sure that no one will quit watching because of it. MLG , I think it's obvious, is not on that level. What will happen if MLG start PPV model now : At first they will get more money, but it will not be for long. After they put such barrier in front of the new viewers (charging them for watching at all) they will not really get new viewers, but part of the old ones will start to quit. Then because the viewer base is getting lower some of the sponsors will withdraw . And VOILA MLG will start to earn less money than they would with the current model. Soon after that they will either realize that they must return on their old model or die. Actually this thread reminds me of the FreeMMOs vs Subscription based MMOs debate. Some of the companies are giving you the game for free , but then charge you for extras. Others make you buy the game and then pay subscription every month... Well that didn't turned well for the second ones - Only the biggest fish(WoW, EVE and some others) survived, while most of the FreeMMOs are still standing strong. Also many of the subscription based games became free with premium options. What does that teach us ? People are more willing to give you money if you give them part of the product for free and then give them options to improve the experience in exchange of some cash(LoL is huge example of that). Also if you are not the biggest fish in the sea you can't afford to charge people for just watching/playing.
Yeah, right, that will let SC2 grow. That dude is seriously funny. You let "lower" quality content flow around to invite new followers to the scene, while you charge the high end product. I have paid for every GSL since last spring. And although at times I was too busy to watch (even the VODs) I did not and for a single moment regret that money spent. I would by no means buy MLG tickets. And I will tell you why mr. Jerith (and all those who agree).
I am a consumer. I consume the fruits of the starcraft2 industry. I bought the game. I pay for the GSL. I watch streams with addblocker off.
I watch quite a few of day9's work. I am one of those people that give mr.9 the "power in the community" he has. He has on his back thousands of viewers ready to consume. He brings viewership to every event he goes to. If he started charging for let's say for his "serious" dailies, he would be totally entitled to do it. He sells to us the product of his decade long experience. Can we get it anywhere else (combined with the sexy beast day9 is)? No. Can we support his efforts with this purchase? Yes. Will we do it? I feel almost sure we will. Will I do it? Of course.
And I would want to buy his product because it has a clear value to me. It improves my analytic thinking. It shows me the beauty of cool strats. It gives me someting that makes me feel worth the money I spend.
I have watched a lot of the GSL, as I mentioned before. Why do I pay? GSL offers the best production of SC2 content, combined with the best players, while being on most of the week, giving maximum entertainment value for my money. They improve every season. Just now the "learn Korean" and the interesting music tracks and some info about them in the breaks show me just that: it's worth my money. So besides from consuming their product, I am also paying to support their growth. And hell, it's dirt cheap.
Besides that, they offer the LQ VODless stream of other events. If I don't have gstl now, next season I might get so impressed by the "glimpse" I have gotten now that I might buy it. And please remember, consumers have feelings as well. They treat me well. You say: CHARGE THEM
20-25$ for two days of MLG? You have really really strong competition in the form of 15$ for a month of far better content. Why the hell besides emotional reasons (it's a foreign tournament, yay) and because you want to support the e-sports growth would anyone pay?
What does the foreign scene have to justify everything not being free? Streams not being free? Low/Medium quality streams of tournaments, without bonus content, not being free? That's the only reason the foreign scene has the viewership it has now. First improve. A lot. Then and after you have reached a small fragment of the GSL quality/price ratio, even consider of charging your product. Until then, survive on adds and on donations.
CHARGE THEM. No mr. Jerith we will not pay when there is good content for free. And if all content would be charged, then besides the dramatic impact on the e-sport scene growth, those who stay will pay for the better product. And that's the GSL.
I miss the days I come home every day to boatloads of Warcraft 3 replays from replayers.com and replays.net. They want to take away streaming? Fine, but release the replays a month later. I can live with that.
On February 10 2012 10:11 coolcor wrote: Hey this thread is very interesting I hope people in the industry continue to post about this. It made me think about a couple things so I want to ask about them
1) Are teams like EG sustainable and making money? Have sustainable tournaments is the most important thing but the teams are 2nd most important and how would a PPV model affect them? It would mean less people watching the tournaments (don't say everyone will buy they won't) so that means less exposure and ROI to team sponsors and teams depend on those sponsors getting a ROI right? Just make sure that the PPV model makes all parts sustainable not just tournaments.
2) Whats going on with the sustainability of the fighting game community right now? They have a bunch of LAN tournaments and free streams to watch those tournaments so are they also in a bubble or are they doing something right? Evo is a big one and it has lasted 10 years. They can't even really have a big online tournament so sc2 has an advantage there.
3) Can the tournaments cut costs if they all agree to do it at once so none of them look inferior? Would it be possible for them to all go to the true level they should be and become sustainable? Less prize money, don't pay a caster 20 000 for one event, simpler and cheap production to focus on just streaming the games and not looking super professional? (like a fighting game tournament)
Also the people who posted about agdq making 150 000 and that got me thinking that foreign tournaments should try copying what they did with donation incentives before going to PPV where they advertise on stream when we reach x amount of donations/subscriptions to the tournament you will get to see y. And just keep setting a bunch of new goals over the weekend.
Some incentives could be interviews, idra talking balance and bad players, showmatches, competitive or funday monday condition or custom game showmatches (sc2 broodwar for nostalgia money!) , bidding wars for which game to stream and who to cast it or who plays in the showmatches with what condition.
And then if someone donates more then x it counts as a subscription and they get HD and maybe even have more incentives like a chance for signed merchandise or stream shoutouts or player coaching lessons to people who pay even higher.
Seems like it would be neat.
Also blizzard should stopping hurting esports with the tournament fees they should be happy that someone wants to lose money advertising their game not make them lose even more and fail faster. They can change back if the tournaments ever do start making lots of money.
ad (1): He said that Alex Garfield is making 2mio a year. So I assume yes, EG are indeed making money
On February 10 2012 10:11 coolcor wrote: Hey this thread is very interesting I hope people in the industry continue to post about this. It made me think about a couple things so I want to ask about them
1) Are teams like EG sustainable and making money? Have sustainable tournaments is the most important thing but the teams are 2nd most important and how would a PPV model affect them? It would mean less people watching the tournaments (don't say everyone will buy they won't) so that means less exposure and ROI to team sponsors and teams depend on those sponsors getting a ROI right? Just make sure that the PPV model makes all parts sustainable not just tournaments.
2) Whats going on with the sustainability of the fighting game community right now? They have a bunch of LAN tournaments and free streams to watch those tournaments so are they also in a bubble or are they doing something right? Evo is a big one and it has lasted 10 years. They can't even really have a big online tournament so sc2 has an advantage there.
3) Can the tournaments cut costs if they all agree to do it at once so none of them look inferior? Would it be possible for them to all go to the true level they should be and become sustainable? Less prize money, don't pay a caster 20 000 for one event, simpler and cheap production to focus on just streaming the games and not looking super professional? (like a fighting game tournament)
Also the people who posted about agdq making 150 000 and that got me thinking that foreign tournaments should try copying what they did with donation incentives before going to PPV where they advertise on stream when we reach x amount of donations/subscriptions to the tournament you will get to see y. And just keep setting a bunch of new goals over the weekend.
Some incentives could be interviews, idra talking balance and bad players, showmatches, competitive or funday monday condition or custom game showmatches (sc2 broodwar for nostalgia money!) , bidding wars for which game to stream and who to cast it or who plays in the showmatches with what condition.
And then if someone donates more then x it counts as a subscription and they get HD and maybe even have more incentives like a chance for signed merchandise or stream shoutouts or player coaching lessons to people who pay even higher.
Seems like it would be neat.
Also blizzard should stopping hurting esports with the tournament fees they should be happy that someone wants to lose money advertising their game not make them lose even more and fail faster. They can change back if the tournaments ever do start making lots of money.
ad (1): He said that Alex Garfield is making 2mio a year. So I assume yes, EG are indeed making money
EG is hugely successful, but one should remember that SC2 is only one part of their business and they were already successful before it.
Since our friendly neighborhood moderator thought my last post was horrible and off topic let me explain what I meant:
I know everyone gets their panties in a knot whenever this happens, but let's compare SC2 with BW. Why is the free stream for a supposedly dying game higher quality than the paid stream for the supposedly hugely more popular one? Why does KT spend more money on Flash's salary than most SC2 teams have for their entire budget? Isn't this the opposite of what makes sense?
The reason why even the crumbling BW industry is able to move so much money is because it's an actual industry built from the ground up. It has sponsors and a regulatory organization and a tv channel to deliver content to the audience. SC2 has none of this. The SC2 scene is every man for himself trying to get a piece of the pie without paying any attention to what made it work in the first place, and Blizzard is right in the middle of it stirring the pot and hoping money will come out.
The GSL has commercials for the Korean audience. Why are there no commercials for the international stream? Can they not find any companies that want to buy ad space? Are there not enough viewers to attract sponsors? If that's the case, how do they get more viewers? These are the questions tournament organizers need to be asking themselves, not how to extract more money directly from the viewers themselves.
The rant itself is not a good way to convey the message but I get the general idea and agree that in order to make things happen you need money you can spend. FXO Boss already said this but he sort of went against himself when he gave out full HD stream for the FIS5. The gist of it is that many sponsors offer goods rather than money and promote things the viewers already know/own while the teams need to “spend money to make money”.
Right now I think it’s ok to offer a 360p stream and VODs for free because outside of America I don’t think it’s that common to pay for things via Paypal and so on, you’d lose many eyeballs. The point of charging right now should be to limit the quality/quantity of the product and then use the money to transfer from a community (based on voluntary work) to an industry (where people get paid for the work they do). For example Totalbiscuit having a short QnA with the subscriber chat. Good journalists should be paid, same as good chat/forum moderators and so on…
I’m still concerned if it’s a good idea to build up an industry around entertainment when countries suffer because there major industries don’t have the confidence to spend money to make money because of the financial recession. I’d rather see someone study and strive to fix American health care rather than make esports bigger because some things are just more important for the society. Personally I’d like to see a transition from the madness of constant supply and demand chase, yet there still are areas vital to the function of our society which would benefit from educated or simply hardworking people.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM.
Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong
Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket).
I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there.
I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol.
These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing)
But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else.
lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out.
LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point.
You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out .
Again, kids need to learn to read. If you think that being able to see someone's kitchen/den behind them professional while they cast then you're what i like to call clueless on whats professional/acceptable. I'll say it again, i'm not demanding anything. I'm telling the op why i don't think its worth my money because of certain things that are lacking. A demand is completely different. I'm sorry you completely fail to understand this. O well.O and by the way, your question is retarded. So what if they haven't been doing it as long or if there isn't as much money in it. If you still don't deliver something i think is worth it or that i deem acceptable then my money isn't going into someone else's pocket. Why even make excuses lol
Lol calling the people you're arguing with "kids" and "retarded" isn't a good way to make yourself sound intelligent. You want esports tournaments to match the production value of multi-billion dollar national TV networks before you'll pay anything for an esports tournament. Then you call it an "excuse" when it's suggested that esports tournaments can't match a production value that has millions of dollars behind it. Clearly rational thinking isn't your forte.
EPT
