What i wonder about "Adds"... Why don't I get them on many streams? Or why are they advertising something I can't buy here? Or why are they advertising something which is clearly not targeted at the audience (a family car, wtf?)
I live in Switzerland... Which officially is speaking French, German and Italian. Now me not getting adds seems to indicate that: Germans and Austrians also don't get adds (because I can buy like 95% of the "branded" stuff they can so why wouldn't I get their adds?). French and Belgues don't get adds (because I can buy lik 95% of the "branded" stuff they can so why wouldn't I get their adds?). (+tons of other French speaking countries) Italians don't get adds (because I can buy like 95% of the "branded" stuff they can so why wouldn't I get their adds?).
So a big part of western Europe seems to not get Adds.. W T F? These countries together afaik have over ~150 Mio. inhabitants. Inhabitants which have among the highest purchasing power in the world... WHY don't we get adds ffs?
I think it's kinda funny that you are bitching about the lack of income when you don't even have adds for "everyone" in favor black screens.
I'm still hoping for some sites adding an option to buy a single ticket for a match/set, usually i'm not that interested that i'd like to spend 30€ just to watch the few matches i'd like to see.
People always want to compare eSports to physical sports. Guess what, real sports are primarily supported by advertising. So there is one huge clue that monetizing it isn't required to keep it from being "dead."
The UFC is a niche market that Dana White wants to squeeze every bent penny out of because he would rather be a big fish in a small pond than use an advertising model and grow the sport where he would end up just being one of many medium sized fish. Regarding the WWE...I can only say rofflewaffles.
I think the industry has to survive on being as thrifty as possible and relying on corporate sponsorships.
SC2 and the competitive esports business as a whole will not make it as a successful industry until the audience scales appropriately. That means waiting for at least 10 years for the next highly tech-oriented stream-oriented generation of kids and players to grow up and have disposable income, and for the already-occurring cultural changes about online streaming to lead to higher per-impression ad-rates and ad revenues.
On February 10 2012 23:53 Velr wrote: What i wonder about "Adds"... Why don't I get them on many streams? Or why are they advertising something I can't buy here? Or why are they advertising something which is clearly not targeted at the audience (a family car, wtf?)
I live in Switzerland... Which officially is speaking French, German and Italian. Now me not getting adds seems to indicate that: Germans and Austrians also don't get adds (because I can buy like 95% of the "branded" stuff they can so why wouldn't I get their adds?). French and Belgues don't get adds (because I can buy lik 95% of the "branded" stuff they can so why wouldn't I get their adds?). (+tons of other French speaking countries) Italians don't get adds (because I can buy like 95% of the "branded" stuff they can so why wouldn't I get their adds?).
So a big part of western Europe seems to not get Adds.. W T F? These countries together afaik have over ~150 Mio. inhabitants. Inhabitants which have among the highest purchasing power in the world... WHY don't we get adds ffs?
I think it's kinda funny that you are bitching about the lack of income when you don't even have adds for "everyone" in favor black screens.
I was posting about that yesterday, because of a lot of my favorite streams (Korean Weekly, E Weekly Match) I never have ads during the ad breaks and I feel like I contribute nothing (I don't use any adblock on streams for this reason). I hope twitch (I have french ads on owned3D) will work this issue. Imo the stream providers have a great role in this, and even if for instance the watching french demography isn't big enough, they still have to adjust their prices to attract some ads. I don't know anything about how they work in that area, but I'm sure of one thing, they could do better.
On February 10 2012 16:28 gnatinator wrote: After finding and listening to the audio of what LordJerith said, I've gained some respect for the guy and what he's asserting. But, LordJerith, do not shit on the community.
(Starts at 48 minutes)
This is the speech he's referencing throughout:
The difference between Mr. Ellison and Starcraft in esports is: 1. Growth of the scene majorly relies on individuals viewing free streams. If content is over-monetized or monetized incorrectly at this stage, it will just halt growth very quickly. 2. Mr. Ellison is being critical of Warner Bros, a big corporation demanding free work. We're talking about our community and primary source of growth.
UFC for example, while it is PPV, has many ways to view tournaments for free: in my experience it's always broadcasting at my gym, at the bar, etc. free to the user.
At this stage giving thought to creative business models that do not significantly sacrifice growth to implement is essential.
Thanks for finding this and sharing. I want to note that the "rant" segments are designed to cause discussion and controversy. Some may not like the language, style or delivery, and I respect that. My intent was not to "shit" on the community. Keep in mind that it is intended to stir emotion.
I do stand by the idea that MLG needs to create quality, professional content and charge for it. The SC2 arena will have all the world top talent. Produce a high quality show and charge for it. If they/we can't, then eSports as a professional business activity is an illusion.
Now, Mr. Ellison also speaks about amateurs giving it away for free, which was more relevant to the point I was making. I do feel my UFC example has been taken too literally. It was an example. I see too many people say UFC is not SC2, and that seems so banally obvious, that I am surprised it is mentioned so often.
I also am surprised that so many use the F2P in certain games or compare this to television. This is a tiny niche. In order for this to grow, MLG will need show investors that the core fan base is willing to pay for this kind of content. They are already $42.5 million into trial and error. If this fails, it will fail fast and now they will know.
If any league does this, I will purchase it. If I do not like it, or even if I like it, but want other features, I will let them know just like I do with any other product or service I consume.
I am hopeful that MLG will try this. It's the best opportunity to date to demonstrate the demand for professional SC2 content, and could lead to more investment $$$. If no one is willing to pay, and the population is too small for ad revenue or merchandising to sustain events, then the final source is sponsorship dollars, and Mr. B covered that quite well.
Why would I pay for anything that costs more than GSL when GSL provides: 1 - Better production 2 - A longer seasons 3 - By far better players
There is like no reason why I would want to pay for another turnament unless basically every player in Code S/Code A goes somewhere else, especially since my only interest is seeing the best of the best duking it out.
I am hopeful that MLG will try this. It's the best opportunity to date to demonstrate the demand for professional SC2 content, and could lead to more investment $$$. If no one is willing to pay, and the population is too small for ad revenue or merchandising to sustain events, then the final source is sponsorship dollars, and Mr. B covered that quite well.
then what is your opinion on mlg pulling out of content production? how can they create quality professional content if they would need to hire in the staff for events 4 times a year. they HAD a huge content crew ready to go, then based on their poor management they decided that there was no money in sc2 content and fired them all.
mlgs current business model (baring the new 4(?) man team to throw out the online qualifiers) seems to be more entrenched than ever in a 4 events per year model. they complain about the increased costs of trucking the mlg set around the country, then they seem to shot themselves in the foot again making it harder for them to justify a full time content team.
i have no idea if mlg could even afford a full time team similar to 1 that has been suggested, but it seems that by growing in the way they have chosen too, they one again are locking themselves into their current situation.
Would I pay to watch SC2 ? Sure. I actually already do since I'm a subscriber to watch the GSL. But I don't even have enough time to watch all the GSL matches, so I'm not sure I'd pay for another SC2 event.
Now, the GSL is running over a long period of time. This allow me to watch 1h of SC2 per day and stay up-to-date with the competition. But If I had to pay for a tournament event that's running on 3-4 days, I wouldn't be interested, because I don't want to watch 4+ hours of SC2 on a single day.
Now, one of the most important thing in my mind is that currently, production quality still kind of sucks (even for the GSL, which has improved a lot lately). It's a videogame, we should be able to get much more realtime info than just the video. I want to be able to see exactly what either player sees on his screen (per-player stream), I want to see splited screen when combat occurs at two locations, I want to be able to consult statistics (combat heatmaps, mineral remaining in expands, units, upgrades, etc...) myself (how often do I think "please show me the units tab"). I mean, the interactivity of SC2 casts is really poor and if a league offer more than what's currently available, I might definitely be interested to pay.
I am hopeful that MLG will try this. It's the best opportunity to date to demonstrate the demand for professional SC2 content, and could lead to more investment $$$. If no one is willing to pay, and the population is too small for ad revenue or merchandising to sustain events, then the final source is sponsorship dollars, and Mr. B covered that quite well.
then what is your opinion on mlg pulling out of content production. how can they create quality professional content if they would need to hire in the staff for events 4 times a year. they HAD a huge content crew ready to go, then based on their poor management they decided that there was no money in sc2 content and fired them all.
mlgs current business model (baring the new 4(?) man team to throw out the online qualifiers) seems to be more entrenched than ever in a 4 events per year model. they complain about the increased costs of trucking the mlg set around the country, then they seem to shot themselves in the foot again making it harder for them to justify a full time content team.
i have no idea if mlg could even afford a full time team similar to 1 that has been suggested, but it seems that by growing in the way they have chose too, they one again are locking themselves into their current situation.
I think IF MLG decided to use a PPV model, then I suspect that they would be sure to have the resources to make quality content. I am certain MLG reads this thread, and they can see the debate. I am sure that they realize that they need to provide quality. Also, they have solid partners to help them with this in Blizzard and Agora. I would say that we will have to wait and see.
Note: "they HAD a huge content crew ready to go, then based on their poor management they decided that there was no money in sc2 content and fired them all."
-content is not the same as a quality event stream. Not the same thing at all. -they decided there was no money in SC2? Can you link me to evidence that was their reasoning?
i didnt say no money in sc2, i said no money in the content. by which i meant the articles and written work they were doing. but that was entirely because the mlg site is a crapfest thats been complained about for 4 years now? and i know content isnt the same as on stream work, but they had a whole team who cared about gaming who (by what most people said) worked hard and knew their stuff. whether those people could translate into video work i dont know, but mlg have burnt the bridge.
So I just found out that an adventure game got 1 million dollars on kickstarter in one day. (now 1.3 million) Why isn't MLG on kickstarter making a million dollars?
Donation incentives can save esports! 10 000 gets you lunch with day9! Once MLG reaches the break even point they stream a day9 vs tasteless showmatch. Add in the ideas like in my previous post for smaller amounts and MLG should be rolling in money. (and if not I think they are doomed anyways day9 is more powerful than PPV)
On February 11 2012 02:38 coolcor wrote: So I just found out that an adventure game got 1 million dollars on kickstarter in one day. (now 1.3 million) Why isn't MLG on kickstarter making a million dollars?
Donation incentives can save esports! 10 000 gets you lunch with day9! Once MLG reaches the break even point they stream a day9 vs tasteless showmatch. Add in the ideas like in my previous post for smaller amounts and MLG should be rolling in money. (and if not I think they are doomed anyways day9 is more powerful than PPV)
Not too bad of an idea. Also, i like the Day9-part. But the "break even point" should be something better than a showmatch between Day9 and Tasteless. More like Tastosis (including Artosis), Day9 and TB on a couch for 3 hours, ranting about.. Stuff, i dont know what exactly. I just like to hear them talk. ^^
paytv in germany always failed/never got big like it is in america. you would never see people here paying for an UFC match.
on top of this i met alot of ppl who have annual tickets (expensive shit) for their favorite soccer/ice hockey team to see them play in real but never cared to pay to see all the matches on TV.
i listened to the podcast on my way home and yeah.. actually there are parts outside of the USA. like hole other fucking continents were things are a bit different which were not considered in this podcast at all. for example that in those other continents people are not just poor but on top of this their currency is worth shit so 30 dollars are not even near the margin they could afford.
i still believe in free content +extre content model. because you know what? the world is fucking changing and this guy most def lives very much in his own world with his own believes, which is not a bad thing at all and i understand he overacted jsut for the cause of it..
anyway.. fuck paying for content. i dont have to pay for fucking facebook, right? what would be his argument there?
"so if you fucking want to socialize let them fucking pay for it, we have social media to grow and we cant if little fad kids dont fucking pay for their socializing website that costs money to run".
how fucking cheap does that argument sound !?
deciding people in esports just have to smart the fuck up. not saying they are dumb but you get my point.
(see what i did with all the fucks?)
edit: i just want to say that i have the very very most respect for people like Day9 that are so good people are willing to give them money even though they dont have to. but i am not one of those people. i can do lots of things for free and id rather spend my money on good food than for starcraft spectating. sc2 content for me is a "cool thing to have" and i dont have to pay so tournaments and players can make more money than i do. they advertise shit to me and fuck me i bought a steelseries after 6 years of razer so leave me and my money alone please.
That LordJerith seems to be the sort of guy who thinks he knows everything and everyone else is fucking stupid. I have no clue how it got to that delusional rant in that podcast(?), as "paytv"(well streaming but basically what he talks about) is something outdated and if esports were to go that route it would probably have higher chances of failing or "dying" how he put it, not the other way around. Also at one point he started bragging about earning 100000$+ a year, which i found incredibly funny and out of place
On February 11 2012 10:50 isleyofthenorth wrote: [...] Also at one point he started bragging about earning 100000$+ a year, which i found incredibly funny and out of place [...]
indeed he should maybe spend 30k a year more on his players. i somehow missed that part. kind of makes we want to punch someone hearing about a guy making 100+k but cry about people not stuffing more money into his upper middleclass ass.
also listened to live on three today where they talked about this year would change and people will have to put out money to watch SPONSORED tournaments and SPONSORED teams watching a stream full of ADVERTISEMENT.
well if thats the case. MLG and all other leagues. thanks for the content so far and good luck in the future with >10k views.
people might actually start to play the game. seems good to me.
On February 12 2012 04:08 how2TL wrote: Well when SC2 dies, you can point to this thread of people who would never dream of spending a cent on it as one reason why.
I think you meant to say, noone would dream of spending more cents for a lower quality and lower quantity product. Everyone here says only GSL is currently worth the money, and I agree.
On February 12 2012 04:08 how2TL wrote: Well when SC2 dies, you can point to this thread of people who would never dream of spending a cent on it as one reason why.
I think you meant to say, noone would dream of spending more cents for a lower quality and lower quantity product. Everyone here says only GSL is currently worth the money, and I agree.
more likely, when sc2 dies in the west, as most of the ADHD kids who play games these days move on to the next big thing. and obviously quality will never be as good compared to GSL.
It is hard for tournaments to charge unless they are bringing out the best players in the world - I think that is a big part of why people are happy to pay for the GSL, but would refrain from paying for IEM/ROG and other mid-tier tournaments. There are currently so many opportunities to see high-level foreigners play for free that it seems silly to pay for a single tournament here or there.
On the other hand, the best Code-S players are pretty much only seen in the GSL. While there will be a handful coming to each MLG, it is far from having the top 32 players in one tournament.
If these smaller tournaments aren't getting enough money through advertising, I fear they will just die off. The scene is vastly over-saturated right now.
EPT
