Really curious on the TeamLiquid perspective on this controversial subject.
Earlier in the week on the vVv Gaming podcast, The Loser's Bracket, LordJerith (the president of vVv Gaming) went on a long rant about monetizing eSports using Starcraft as a primary example. He touched on subjects such as eSports giving away too much for free and stated that MLG/IPL/etc should charge for quality streams, a la WWE or UFC.
Jerith also said... "If we don't monetize eSports, this is dead." Is he right? Is this the solution?
From looking at things from the outside, MLG might be considering a model similar to this. Sundance tweeted a few days ago...
Ok. I lied. I'm back. How many people pay for UFC PPV? How many would pay if it was $20-$25 (Source: Sundance DiGiovanni - Twitter)
The question becomes.. what are your thoughts on paying for streams in this manner? Would you accept a PPV model to watch high quality content? If this does happen and it fails... is all hope lost for eSports in North America?
Please share your feedback here. From what I can tell, this is a subject that MLG looks to be watching closely. We need to speak up and share our concerns, questions, and feelings. Look forward to your feedback.
There are other ways to make a profit. Subscription fees for leagues will eventually be replaced with more ad-based sources of revenue, I bet. Look at Facebook and Google. The vast majority of their revenue comes from ads.
On February 09 2012 14:58 Voltaire wrote: There are other ways to make a profit. Subscription fees for leagues will eventually be replaced with more ad-based sources of revenue, I bet. Look at Facebook and Google. The vast majority of their revenue comes from ads.
agreed, honestly I think jerry's a bit dumb to say the least anyway in how he runs his teams anyway and what he expects from them.
While I don't have a problem paying for content as long as its not expensive but I also think if it goes to you have to pay and no free to watch well that's going to kill esports a lot as well (there are lots of teenagers without jobs who love watching and can't pay it/parents won't pay it) and is not the right way to go.
I think one of the important things to consider about "monetizing eSports" is the way it currently operates.
You can't just put a pricetag on HD streams and go "There, problem solved". When you look at things like the UFC, WWE, etc. you have to consider they charge for the streams because not only are they paying for the event, they're also paying large sums just to have the talent show up KNOWING they'll make a return on the PayPerView, etc.
Compare that to the current eSports scene where teams pay to send their players to events to have a SHOT at winning money, and and some events the players are even paying to compete.
Furthermore, the community is used to getting HD for free right now. Unless you can convince EVERY SINGLE LEAGUE to broadcast in HD for payment, Tournament X will get watched instead of Tournament Y because X offers free HD and Y doesn't.
I don't think we're at a point where eSports dies if it's not monetized soon. The scene is still growing very rapidly, and is constantly attracting new viewers, new sponsors, and new players. Only when it starts to slow down do we really need to focus on extra monetization.
SC2 is doing fine right now. Almost everything is free, with maybe higher quality streams for a few bucks, supported mostly through ads. No one could start trying to force people to pay either, because there's so many other options people could turn to.
Nope, the UFC are people putting themselves in serious physical harm, they have a lot more on the line than a sc2 match.
For WWE, you cannot compare esports, a fringe hobby community, to one of the highest rated shows on television. Here are some WEEKLY numbers for the WWE.
WWE Smackdown: The 3/11 show drew a 1.96 cable rating with 3.07 million viewers.
TNA Impact: The 3/10 show drew a 1.25 cable rating with 1.74 million viewers. The show did a 0.76 rating among males 18-34 and 1.12 rating among males 35-49. It went up against an NBA game (Lakers vs. heat) doing 4.84 million viewers and "Jersey Shore" doing 7.20 million viewers.
WWE Superstars: The 3/10 show drew a 0.50 cable rating with 500,000 viewers. The replay scored a 0.17 rating with 149,000 viewers.
WWE Monday Night Raw: The 3/7 show drew a 3.92 cable rating with 5.72 million viewers. The show drew a strong 3.42 rating among males 18-34. 68% of the audience was male. It was the highest rated episode of Raw since August 24, 2009 and was the highest rated show on cable that night. It also ended as the highest rated show on both broadcast or cable among male teenagers with a 4.5 rating. Read more: http://www.wrestlinginc.com/wi/news/2011/0319/537583/#ixzz1lrUPw51p
So you're saying that esports should be in competition with a market that has 4 shows within 4 days that has a total of 11.08 million views? Come on now.
Btw those 11.08 million views, yea those were for free as long as you subscribed to the required channels. So his logic is sort of flawed in that regard.
Plus this is the internet, what do you think is going to happen should they deny people the chance to watch it? Thats right, we will pirate it, and they won't get the viewer count to provide to their sponsors anymore, which in turn hurts esports more than the potential profit of edging out the paying half of the community
I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I think there's this perception that companies are making money, but I doubt they are.
It's a tough spot. Monetize and people revolt and you die. Don't monetize and you slowly drown. I don't know how it's going to work. Maybe you have to completely level up the broadcast to a completely different place where people expect to pay for that quality? No idea.
Edit: No one seems to treat this as a business. There's a feeling things should be free because they want it to grow. Until we get past that and make it a business, it'll never be more than a niche market, which is fine, but it is what it is.
Paying for Hd won't drive away consumers, but so long as HD is a reasonable price and there are 480p streams to watch with decent sound quality, it won't affect the stream numbers much. The majority of SC2 profit is made though ad revenue at the moment, hence making the industry not self sufficient. That in itself can be harmful because if a major sponsor pulls the plug or gets a better deal elsewhere, money starts drying up real fast.
Good luck. Very few tounaments can get ppl to pay for em. I don't have a problem with it if you can get it but most can't and have to rely on adveritsers.Welcome to business where 90% fail. Rant all you want but that's reality not how you wish it to be.
I have paid for events/seasons before and missed a lot due to real life.
I do enjoy some of the free-to-view events which are currently in better quality than 480+, but only watch them when I have time and they are streaming.
I doubt I would even consider paying $20.00 - 25.00 for any one particular event.
I have paid for UFC PPV in the past but there is usually a group of us and it works out to approximately $5.00 per person.
With that being said there are many illegal venues to view PPV streams live for free. Forcing people to pay for events could lead to that sort of thing too for E-sports.
It depends on the price because the majority of the viewer base are kids that might not be able to pay for streams on a consistent basis. At this stage of the scene it would do more harm then good. Maybe in the future when Esports is more mainstream and there are more people that are willing to spend money on streams then this could be viable. But as of now, no way this would work.
I feel that what he said is completely and utterly accurate; he could have said it manner that is more professional. I mean, he is referring to all of us who are watching the streams for free as fat asses, and there are a lot of swearing that to me is just him venting/
Maybe we're not at that point where the scene is dieing, but if we want to best players, casters, or to attract future talent to SC2 events, or esport events in general, I feel that doing that is completely fine. They could do a LQ channel for free, and you have to pay for a HQ pass to get HQ. Or they can have multiple streams (where most of the games are casted) and one free stream, where less notable games are casted.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I think there's this perception that companies are making money, but I doubt they are.
It's a tough spot. Monetize and people revolt and you die. Don't monetize and you slowly drown. I don't know how it's going to work. Maybe you have to completely level up the broadcast to a completely different place where people expect to pay for that quality? No idea.
If we are talking about tournaments here, then they should start focusing on in event product, and improving that. For example they could start setting up seating for a fee depending on where you want to sit, much like any live sports event. This provides people with the opportunity to pay a bit of money to be given a prime spectator seat, where people not willing to spend the money can still enjoy the event.
Another idea would be to start making side shows, perhaps set up a few computers that the championship series players can compete against fans, for a fee of course, during the downtime of games. I am aware the format they used last year would not particularly fit this idea, but I'm sure someone in their scheduling department could figure this one out.
Arghhhhh, no! This is not the way to monetize e-sports!!!
Advertising is the way to do it! Why, when I'm watching any e-sports am I not seeing specific targeted ad's that are relevent to the product at hand? If I am watching a game with a TL player, why am I not seeing easily clickable ads for the Razer Mouse the player is using or TLAF right there on the screen? The same goes for all the other teams and there sponsors. There should be easy way for the current sponsors to get returns on their investments beyond just seeing their logo on a t-shirt and getting a thank you in an interview.
The Casters could talk about / pimp the sponsors products, not just the event sponsors, but the players sponsors too. Just pimp everything. Then when more companies enter the scene you can bump up things like player entry fees and when it's proven to be a successful marketing tool (like television ads are) you will be able to set insane prices for advertising spots.
This is e-sports, the entire marketing and advertising needs to be rethought from the ground up. You should not be competing with Pay Per View, you should be competing with Television advertising. And the possibility of interactive advertisement should be an incredible tool to blow it out of the water.
The idea that we should pay $25 an event is silly, it is so weak that the companies that are still relying on direct payment for services are turning to things like SOPA/PIPA to try to prevent people from not paying. The day the SC2 e-sports scene joins this "dark-side" is the day I will stop watching.
Don't get me wrong, continue to have it as an option for people who prefer to watch ad-free. But to rely on it... It's just not going to be viable.
Well asking myself directly: "Would I pay for a high quality tournament stream?" Only GSL would I even consider paying $5. And not much more than that either. You can tell Jerith only has the $$$$ signs for his eyes and that he's sensationalizing SC2/Esports speculative growth into a world where Esports has the sheer numbers to make up for any loss of viewership which may occur because of the transition.
It doesn't (at least not in perspective to UFC whose main revenue comes from PPV), and especially when Esports is just blossoming - EVEN THE GAMES IN QUESTION are still under contention for balance issues/UI issues/etc. - it doesn't need to be bludgeoned with prospects of "get rich quick" idealisms.
i.e. Let the Esports flower grow and flourish with the grassroots activism from its fanbase before you try to grab it at its stem and munch it up with your money-grubby teeth
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I think there's this perception that companies are making money, but I doubt they are.
It's a tough spot. Monetize and people revolt and you die. Don't monetize and you slowly drown. I don't know how it's going to work. Maybe you have to completely level up the broadcast to a completely different place where people expect to pay for that quality? No idea.
Edit: No one seems to treat this as a business. There's a feeling things should be free because they want it to grow. Until we get past that and make it a business, it'll never be more than a niche market, which is fine, but it is what it is.
I agree with this, but it just seems to me at least that currently there's way more supply than demand.
I'm not saying people don't want to watch starcraft, but there's a million tournaments going on all the time right now for people to watch. GSL, MLG, Dreamhack, etc. are the only ones that come to mind that could get away with charging, because they attract the absolute highest level of competition. But even then, there's a limit to how much a person can watch. I absolutely love MLG, but even I find it hard to watch starcraft all day for an entire weekend. Why would I purchase when it's too much content for me to digest?
Perhaps some of the businesses need to drown in order to raise the demand for the more successful business models?
Sure that model works... except the vast majority of the tournaments out there (probably everything but GSL) don't have the production/casting/talent to justify charging for it.
I'm willing to pay $70 for a year of the GSL. But that's because I get GSL content almost every week. One weekend of MLG is about 1/50th the content of a year of GSL, in my opinion (just in terms of amount of broadcast content, not even touching on quality of the players or production value here). So, I would pay maybe <$5 for a weekend of MLG. $25 is a crazy amount to charge, one weekend of MLG is not worth 4 months of GSL.
Here's an analogy: in competitive American team sports, the games are broadcast for free, and we watch ads to cover the cost. Any successful long term esports model will have to have a similar idea.
This is a big soap box issue of mine. Everyone wants high quality content, but nobody wants to pay for it. The righteous nerd rage that erupts when people are asked to pay 9.99 for 40 hours of content is enough to black out the sun.
The community absolutely needs to make at least a moderate cultural shift in their willingness to vote with their dollars. If you want high quality professional gaming organizations, they need income. Teams and leagues are not government subsidized, they are businesses.
Ad revenue is doing great things for the community, and the advent and prevalence of streaming organizations is a great help, but it really isn't enough. Look back at the history of esports, there are a ton of failed enterprises. Running either a team, or a league, is an inherently expensive activity if you want to do it right.
(please don't flame me for this, I am just trying to add context) I've got an MBA with a focus on entrepreneurial activity, and work in corporate finance... the problems of business capitalization and revenue generation are what I do for a living.
Esports is really important to me. I have applied alot of the associated rigor and methodology to this problem in regards to the esports model, and I always arrive at the conclusion that as a community we will need to be able to accept paying a bit more then we do now if we want sustained, high quality content.
And let's be real here. UFC charges $50 for a several hour PPV event. MLG or GSL provides WAY more content (and superior content IMO) for a fraction of that cost.
TLDR: If a league is charging a certain amount for access to their stream or event, it is not because they don't appreciate you as a fan and aren't committed to giving you the best content at the lowest possible cost. It's just an economic reality, and we need to accept it if we want esports to maintain the status quo, much less grow in the way it deserves to.
Jerry honestly has no idea what it means to be a successful organization to start, yes I am going there.... His team vVv has not produced results nor are they salaried. When you have very successful business models such as EG that work hard to advertise.
As far as PPV can also take any other sports like football baseball basketball they do successful due to advertising. There are many other avenue's of monetization. SC2 community is small already don't need to alienate more people because the current market of viewers are mostly lower income college males.
On February 09 2012 15:34 Inori wrote: I've never seen UFC PPV but I'm 99% sure their production quality is miles ahead anything any esports organization is able to provide. So don't forget to up it up if you're going to compare to them.
how do you define production quality? if you go back and look at early UFC, like when they wore robes in the octagon, it looked quite amateurish. esports is still in its infancy while UFC has hit full stride (with major help from spike TV of course).
Actually, i would not mind to pay for good quality, but then again, you wouldnt have any excuse for broken streams anymore. If i pay for a stable HQ stream, i want that stable HQ stream, i give a shit about any problems you may encounter - make it work. If you cant, well, dont charge for the stream. Oh, and no ads, of course. Not even the "sneaky ones" with like Dr. Pepper Bottles all over the table (which is an ad as well).
Ah and ofcourse, i so wont pay for streams which have their price in $=€. If i want to be ripped off, ill go to a local car dealer.
I dont think that would work. Stuff like TBs invitational etc, .. Nah. Too much good streams which are not GSL/MLG/IGN, to actually make that work. And if nothing else works, day9 daily will be free.
And yeah, it may sound cheap, but theres a relatively low limit for what i would pay for a stream, especially regarding the fact that there are always free streams to watch (even the playerstreams, which they cant stop because they would have to pay the players more salary) - sometimes even with casting (like TLO).
Edit: and even if i sound like a dick now.. Apart from GSL, no production from any tournament actually is worth paying (much) for. Its all pretty much low amateur level, so if you want to charge prices like the big dudes, deliver the same quality. And by that i mean for example professional grade greenscreening, professional "cameramen" for interviews, crowdshots etc (not some shaky dude with wobblefingers), stuff like that. A really high quality/professional production, from a to b. With stuff to fill gaps between games (and i dont mean a picture that says "waiting for X"), etc. As soon as you charge, you are a service provider, so i actually can expect stuff made professional - in the end, thats the only part a organisator can do. The major part is done by the players, which actually dont see any of that money, so i dont pay for awesome games (because they come from the players) - but an awesome production.
On February 09 2012 15:36 Blackfoger wrote: Jerry honestly has no idea what it means to be a successful organization to start, yes I am going there.... His team vVv has not produced results nor are they salaried. When you have very successful business models such as EG that work hard to advertise.
As far as PPV can also take any other sports like football baseball basketball they do successful due to advertising. There are many other avenue's of monetization. SC2 community is small already don't need to alienate more people because the current market of viewers are mostly lower income college males.
Yeah unless he's changed he doesn't believe in salaries when I joined vVv as the original sc2 team before leaving really fast. Its possible he's changed that but I doubt it lol.
so far reading the thread both arguments are actually pretty good in terms of for it and against it while I am fine with either but you do have to think that the normal audience is teenagers/college students I am pretty sure (may be wrong!).
Honestly I think most people are far far to fixated on "make esports big", And willing to sacrifice a lot of the things that make it semi-unique and IMO great in the process, IE the whole professionalism argument, so 80 year of Christian grandmas can watch without getting upset.
The think the community (fans, not the people trying to extract money from them) needs to be very careful about what they ask for. Im not really sold on the idea of esports being "big" actually making it any better for me.
Don't we have this already? I mean what big tournament isn't monetized except dreamhack? GSL, MLG, IPL, HSC, NASL all have HD passes or subs or in IPL's case access to extra content. If you're talking about just raising the price then hell no, unless there's a drastic increase in production value but even then you'd have to convince a lot of people.
I think the current model where the sponsors pay for the events is totally viable. Even more so if we get more viewers. I would never pay for GSL considering they seem to want foreign players there.
On February 09 2012 15:30 KingOfAmerica wrote: This is a big soap box issue of mine. Everyone wants high quality content, but nobody wants to pay for it. The righteous nerd rage that erupts when people are asked to pay 9.99 for 40 hours of content is enough to black out the sun.
The community absolutely needs to make at least a moderate cultural shift in their willingness to vote with their dollars. If you want high quality professional gaming organizations, they need income. Teams and leagues are not government subsidized, they are businesses.
Ad revenue is doing great things for the community, and the advent and prevalence of streaming organizations is a great help, but it really isn't enough. Look back at the history of esports, there are a ton of failed enterprises. Running either a team, or a league, is an inherently expensive activity if you want to do it right.
(please don't flame me for this, I am just trying to add context) I've got an MBA with a focus on entrepreneurial activity, and work in corporate finance... the problems of business capitalization and revenue generation are what I do for a living.
Esports is really important to me. I have applied alot of the associated rigor and methodology to this problem in regards to the esports model, and I always arrive at the conclusion that as a community we will need to be able to accept paying a bit more then we do now if we want sustained, high quality content.
And let's be real here. UFC charges $50 for a several hour PPV event. MLG or GSL provides WAY more content (and superior content IMO) for a fraction of that cost.
TLDR: If a league is charging a certain amount for access to their stream or event, it is not because they don't appreciate you as a fan and aren't committed to giving you the best content at the lowest possible cost. It's just an economic reality, and we need to accept it if we want esports to maintain the status quo, much less grow in the way it deserves to.
Deserves what it can command in economic rents. esport has several issues in extracting large rents. First of all its traget audiance is very young men with little money. Second it's not mainstream whatsoever. basically you're paid what you're worth.
Accounting major but I've taken finance classes and there's a reason Eli manning makes more than a teacher. 30 vs 30 million from whom they can collect economic rents from.
I dont like how people think we`ll pay for everything
I dont pay for any tournaments because I dont care THAT much about a game to spend money to watch people play it. I also run adblocker.
Ill stick with my LQ streams and HQ restreams when available.
I also find it ridiculous GOM already charges out the ass for their subscription (20$ a month if you want to watch the dual stream when it used to be free for all LOL) while Koreans get to watch it for free (just adverts)
And let's be real here. UFC charges $50 for a several hour PPV event. MLG or GSL provides WAY more content (and superior content IMO) for a fraction of that cost.
Well, no. Actually, MLG does not. The whole system is different. If i pay for a stream from MLG, the players (which generate the awesome content) dont see much/any of that money. I pay strictly for the production/marketing of the awesome content, which again, is NOT generated by MLG, but just broadcasted.
Edit: btw, in eSport, its actually not necessary to charge that much, because you dont have the "side-dish" like in UFC (i guess thats wrestling, which i watched 20 years ago, was called WWF? back then). Someone who wants to watch a big tournament, wants to watch exactly that. No music-gigs etc needed - just high quality and stable stream, + good casters. Thats all. If you add any more stuff like music etc to the tournament, charge the live audience for that. Because paying for music-acts which i already have on my HDD, well.. no. If you dont have live audience, but more like an online tournament, well, theres no reason to charge a lot, because production costs are low.
You can twist and turn it as long as you want, you cant charge that much for starcraft 2. Too much alternatives, too little content (and a lack of interest in that as well, like music and stuff).
edit2: @ below me, i would never EVER pay 20$ for a showmatch. Except maybe they would play it on naked babes, with naked babes dancing around. And boobs. Never.
This is the internet, not national tv channel of some random countries. We need to consider the netizens' demographic.
- A lot of viewers are kids, students who don't have that much money to ppv. - A lot of viewers are from the countries that don't have the way to purchase the contents/goods on the internet. - A lot of viewers don't have good internet connection to enjoy HD. - A lot of viewers don't handle certain languages well. I know a lot of people who watch games for the sake of watching, not listening to the commentators because they don't understand English very well. - A lot of viewers can't catch the events because they live in the other side of the world.
So yeah, PPV is a very niche market, and I doubt it would be successful, at least right now. Sure if you do showmatches such as Flash vs mvp, there will be a nice number of viewers, but I really doubt it's gonna reach 10k with the price tag of, say, $20.
On February 09 2012 15:40 m4inbrain wrote: Actually, i would not mind to pay for good quality, but then again, you wouldnt have any excuse for broken streams anymore. If i pay for a stable HQ stream, i want that stable HQ stream, i give a shit about any problems you may encounter - make it work. If you cant, well, dont charge for the stream. Oh, and no ads, of course. Not even the "sneaky ones" with like Dr. Pepper Bottles all over the table (which is an ad as well).
Ah and ofcourse, i so wont pay for streams which have their price in $=€. If i want to be ripped off, ill go to a local car dealer.
I dont think that would work. Stuff like TBs invitational etc, .. Nah. Too much good streams which are not GSL/MLG/IGN, to actually make that work. And if nothing else works, day9 daily will be free.
And yeah, it may sound cheap, but theres a relatively low limit for what i would pay for a stream, especially regarding the fact that there are always free streams to watch (even the playerstreams, which they cant stop because they would have to pay the players more salary) - sometimes even with casting (like TLO).
Edit: and even if i sound like a dick now.. Apart from GSL, no production from any tournament actually is worth paying (much) for. Its all pretty much low amateur level, so if you want to charge prices like the big dudes, deliver the same quality. And by that i mean for example professional grade greenscreening, professional "cameramen" for interviews, crowdshots etc (not some shaky dude with wobblefingers), stuff like that. A really high quality/professional production, from a to b. With stuff to fill gaps between games (and i dont mean a picture that says "waiting for X"), etc. As soon as you charge, you are a service provider, so i actually can expect stuff made professional - in the end, thats the only part a organisator can do. The major part is done by the players, which actually dont see any of that money, so i dont pay for awesome games (because they come from the players) - but an awesome production.
I tototally agree with this. Plus in GSL, the players aren't flown in 3 days beforehand so there is no "im jet-lagged" or any other bull shit excuses players/spectators can make so we can have the best performance by the players. Theres no schedualing problems and theres no real downtime. They have a few commercials in-between so players can set up or the casters can have a small break but theres no 1-2 hour period of jacking off.
If i'm going to pay 25$ for a 3 day event then it better damn well be an amazing 3day event where I can watch it continuously instead of watch it for like 2 hours and forget about it since there was this retard pause inbetween.
Charging for decent quality streams would alienate the casual viewers. I could easily expect a third or so of the viewers to drop off. GSL's free stream is a bit too bad, imo (sort of like the WCG2011 stream, that was terribad), but I think their issue with the Western world is the time slot as compared to the price of decent quality. "But wait, there's vods!" Sure, but if it's a group you don't really care about (I only cared about MC in group C, but I less than three all four in group D) you can go find the match results and call it a day. Watching vods of premium content is like Netflix. At least with a Netflix sub I can pick from a list of stuff to watch and new content is always being added. GSL's not too bad with it (we'll have to wait and see the delay between seasons), but MLG would suffer for it.
If Blizzard taught us anything: cater to the casual fans and watch your numbers and monies grow.
Btw, this was tried with PPSL and it failed so terribly that 8.95 become a meme overnight.
EDIT: $25 for a three day event better come with a happy ending.
They are gonna lose a ton of viewers if they do this. I'm willing to dish it out for GSL but that's the best players in the world and even they have a free stream.
On February 09 2012 15:54 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I dont like how people think we`ll pay for everything
I dont pay for any tournaments because I dont care THAT much about a game to spend money to watch people play it. I also run adblocker.
Ill stick with my LQ streams and HQ restreams when available.
I also find it ridiculous GOM already charges out the ass for their subscription (20$ a month if you want to watch the dual stream when it used to be free for all LOL) while Koreans get to watch it for free (just adverts)
I don't mind running ads to help out. I just dual streams mute IE and actually watch the games on FF wth adblocker.
On February 09 2012 15:36 Blackfoger wrote: As far as PPV can also take any other sports like football baseball basketball they do successful due to advertising. There are many other avenue's of monetization. SC2 community is small already don't need to alienate more people because the current market of viewers are mostly lower income college males.
Please, these "lower income college males" have a fucking ridiculous disposable income in the vast majority of cases. However much an SC2 tournament stream costs will not break their bank.
Poor Sundance, I'll buy a ticket next MLG to warm his heart a little :3
On a more serious note, people have to accept that if esports is going to become a business, it's got to be a BUSINESS and make money. Ads are good, but they support streamers, not companies with employees and payroll. I'd be fine with SC2 adopting the MMA business model for big tournaments; if GSL made me pay 5 bucks a season to watch even the "free" stream I'd do it, I think for the amount of enjoyment I get from watching it, that's perfectly reasonable.
We're really spoiled to have people who can dedicate their lives to making content through streaming, and we have to accept that if we want something more grandiose than Steven Bonnell at his computer playing ladder, they're going to need more support than just turning off Adblock. Commercialize all you want, it can be nothing but good for the industry, but please make there be an affordable option, some of us are starving college kids =(
Here's the issue as I see it. It's not a problem with monetization or making people pay the right price. The problem is in convincing people that the price is worth it. Look at this guy a little above me:
On February 09 2012 15:54 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I also find it ridiculous GOM already charges out the ass for their subscription (20$ a month if you want to watch the dual stream when it used to be free for all LOL) while Koreans get to watch it for free (just adverts)
GOM provides one stream for free and a second stream at the exact same time used to be provided for free and this guy is pissed at GOM because he can only pay attention to one game at a time. I understand the frustration because it was something that he thought would be free, but really there has only been one previous GSL season where the dual stream was free (there was no dual stream before that) and one season later people are super pissed off that it isn't free. This is something that didn't exist before for GOM 3 months ago, and all of a sudden it is absolutely essential.
So what solution do I think needs to happen? Better marketing. Marketing isn't just about telling people what your product is or what it does. Marketing is also about convincing people that your product is worth it. I wrote a blog with a well reasoned argument about how the GSL ticket prices are definitely worth it if you enjoy watching SC games, and I got 2 people giving me a 1 star. It seems most people see a certain price tag and just throw their hands up in the air going "it's too fucking expensive". These companies just need to convince people that it isn't expensive and that the money that is going to be spent is worth it.
Since you are going to be making a choice on what to purchase anyway between hundreds of different things, why wouldn't you be trying to convince people that your product is worth it? Well because right now most companies think that this market is made up of die hard fans that will stay in good times or bad because they want to watch eSports. This is somewhat true. But when it comes to paying money this isn't because money is a more tangible sacrifice than time for most people. The way to monetize eSports is just to convince people that the sacrifice is worth it. And there is truly little of that going on.
It's weird because there have been opportunities to do it too. Instead of just adding stuff and making everything better, why not add stuff and have people pay for it? MLG added a second free stream for starcraft and then later added a few more streams that people can pay to watch. This is a problem because MLG set a precedent that you should be able to see most games and that having a second stream available should be mandatory for a tournament of that size and in that time. What happens later if they do try to monetize the second stream? MLG gets shit from the community and are called greedy.
It's a good thing to have a base that is free. That is how you can get people to watch by including a base stream that is free and relatively good quality. I think 480p is good enough to be able to enjoy anything (my internet is slow so I pretty much watch 360p on YouTube and on streams and it is fine). Anything higher should cost something. There are people willing to pay for that and anyone that isn't has access to the free stream. The problem is that so many different companies offer different things for free, that it is difficult not to get hate if you happen to charge. This one offers 720p for free. This one offers free VODs. This one offers free second stream. And the everyone writes about how this other company does it and you should too.
Despite common knowledge, some of these companies should really start ignoring the community when it comes to monetization. They should just do it, see if it works or if they lose money, and then go back on what they did if it doesn't work. Saying sorry works well enough for 90% of the community that it will be a good test. There are always going to be people that complain about paying for things, and some of these people pay anyway. It's not very useful to listen to them.
On February 09 2012 15:36 Blackfoger wrote: As far as PPV can also take any other sports like football baseball basketball they do successful due to advertising. There are many other avenue's of monetization. SC2 community is small already don't need to alienate more people because the current market of viewers are mostly lower income college males.
Please, these "lower income college males" have a fucking ridiculous disposable income in the vast majority of cases. However much an SC2 tournament stream costs will not break their bank.
Big fan, but have to disagree Adebisi. I'm in that boat. Simply can't pay for streams, but don't mind watching adds. Even people who could afford it might not be bothered. For example, I tried to pay for gsl and they wouldn't accept my credit card so I never went back to them. Just watch tastosis live. I think it's probably better to increase the viewer base than to charge people for the streams before the viewer base is established.
Kespa has well for the last decade without trying to nickle and dime people. Show me that the ROI is so low for IPL/MLG/ESL that it will soon to be a requirement to implement paid services in order to continue producing content.
Every major league has expanded since the beginning of 2011 without the need to require every viewer to pay. If one of these leagues goes under it is their fault for overestimated the market and I don't believe in going PPV to cover up their mistakes.
On February 09 2012 16:14 lunchrush wrote: On a more serious note, people have to accept that if esports is going to become a business, it's got to be a BUSINESS and make money. Ads are good, but they support streamers, not companies with employees and payroll. I'd be fine with SC2 adopting the MMA business model for big tournaments; if GSL made me pay 5 bucks a season to watch even the "free" stream I'd do it, I think for the amount of enjoyment I get from watching it, that's perfectly reasonable.
We're really spoiled to have people who can dedicate their lives to making content through streaming, and we have to accept that if we want something more grandiose than Steven Bonnell at his computer playing ladder, they're going to need more support than just turning off Adblock. Commercialize all you want, it can be nothing but good for the industry, but please make there be an affordable option, some of us are starving college kids =(
On February 09 2012 16:07 lavit2099 wrote: If Blizzard taught us anything: cater to the casual fans and watch your numbers and monies grow.
To follow up on this, let's take a look at the current state of online video games. A lot of companies are seeing huge increases in profit by opening it up to the casual player by having free-to-play games or trials and then either having people pay for extra content or items/clothes, etc. And it works because if enough people play then some people will pay as well. That absolute number will rise as the absolute number of people playing rises, even if the percentage becomes smaller.
There is two problems in regards to SC2 in relation to this. First of all, a lot of the time we are talking about 0 monetization versus some monetization in regards to SC2. In these f2p games there are tons of things you can pay for. If streams had things on the side that said "Pay 1 dollar and get the heart rates of the players while during the game" or something like that, I am sure this could work but there are very few things that apply to a stream as opposed to a game.
Second, and more importantly, eSports already doesn't have too many casual viewers (at least in the foreign scene). You are already in the hardcore so monetizing isn't going to supremely hurt your numbers. Things would be different if eSports actually became popular.
The issue with trying to capitalize monetarily at this moment is what many others have mentioned before. There isn't the quality in production for every tournament to charge. The only thing I'll pay for at this point in time is GSL. It has a great production value and I get a ton of content for my money. If you look at the GSL in seasons 1-3 or so, the production was decent but doesn't compare to what it is now. MLG has also consistently improved the SC2 side of their production. I think the issue with MLG, however, is the fact that it every couple of months for a marathon weekend. You don't get to see every game played and even if you wanted to watch all of the VODs, you only have three days to get all of the content before it becomes less relevant. I don't mind watching good games after an event is over but I won't watch the matches that are unimportant if the winner of the event is already decided. Fortunately, the GSL at the moment has a system where games hold weight for at least a week. I have time to watch some of the live streams before bed and then I finish up games the next day. If it was a particularly heavy day with tons of games I'll spread it out over the week.
There just isn't enough content to charge upwards of $20 for the lesser events however. I can only see that killing them off right now with no one truly willing to fund them through a payment plan. Advertising at this point makes the most sense and production value can steadily increase to a point where the fee might be warranted. However, PPV in general always seems steep in pricing. Unless you have a bar to watch it at or a group of people to split the cost, the model typically has issues. Most people sitting at home for a weekend of SC2 most likely don't have the $30 PPV cost to throw around every other weekend just to see a few games. It's completely reasonable to work on a low budget and grow your company/tournament. Once you do this and at least give quality comparable to what we see in Korea right now, then you have the opportunity to do something along these lines. The smaller tournaments will either have to follow an ad-based model or die out. I don't ever see there being more than a handful of big tournaments who will be able to offer content worth paying for.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I think there's this perception that companies are making money, but I doubt they are.
It's a tough spot. Monetize and people revolt and you die. Don't monetize and you slowly drown. I don't know how it's going to work. Maybe you have to completely level up the broadcast to a completely different place where people expect to pay for that quality? No idea.
Edit: No one seems to treat this as a business. There's a feeling things should be free because they want it to grow. Until we get past that and make it a business, it'll never be more than a niche market, which is fine, but it is what it is.
You're missing the more likely result of complete monetization: The top league becomes filthy rich, and the rest die entirely, reduced to small audiences and "indy league" quality, just like the situation with Professional Wrestling and MMA. And this isn't a what-if scenario, it's the one that exists in SC2 right now.
The GSL is the league, and there is absolutely no argument about that. Viewers can't and won't pay for every tournament, so they are going to be selective about their money, and more often than not, the GSL is going to be the one to get that revenue. In other words, if tournaments like IPL, NASL, MLG, etc. don't stream for free, then they will probably vanish into obscurity.
I think the biggest issue is the mentality that free streams are a "charity model" as you put it, which couldn't be further from the truth. Look at the MMORPG scene, for instance. WoW is the only Pay-to-Play game left, and it dominates everything. How did ever other game remain relevant and profitable? By removing subscriptions entirely, making access to the game 100% free, and then charging for peripherals...and more often than not, that made them even more profitable than before.
I couldn't possibly say what would be smart marketing tactics, or how these tournaments could generate revenue. But I can, and will, say with certainty, that a pay-to-watch business model will only benefit the top-tier organizations, and would be the swiftest way to kill off the ones that aren't on top.
If streams cost money, I would probably bootleg them in all honesty (sorry eSports! I'm a poor college student xO). I feel like the audience demographics for eSports is sufficiently different from that of WWE, etc. to support a similar business model.
On February 09 2012 16:14 flowSthead wrote: Here's the issue as I see it. It's not a problem with monetization or making people pay the right price. The problem is in convincing people that the price is worth it. Look at this guy a little above me:
On February 09 2012 15:54 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I also find it ridiculous GOM already charges out the ass for their subscription (20$ a month if you want to watch the dual stream when it used to be free for all LOL) while Koreans get to watch it for free (just adverts)
GOM provides one stream for free and a second stream at the exact same time used to be provided for free and this guy is pissed at GOM because he can only pay attention to one game at a time. I understand the frustration because it was something that he thought would be free, but really there has only been one previous GSL season where the dual stream was free (there was no dual stream before that) and one season later people are super pissed off that it isn't free. This is something that didn't exist before for GOM 3 months ago, and all of a sudden it is absolutely essential.
I havent read the rest of your post so Im just quoting this bit.
Yes it only was for 1 previous GSL but thats because GOM keeps changing their league format. They realised oh wow we have too many games lets add a second stream so people can pick and choose what they want to watch.
That was fine, pick between the two its free.
Now since you have to pay 20$+ to watch one or both of the streams (not available to 15$/mo light premium) GOM can decide to put the better games on the 2nd stream which costs money which is fucking stupid and wrong.
I dont even understand why they did this in the first place because they spoil the other match results during the LIVE broadcast so there isnt even a point to watch the VOD later because you already know the match results
Just thought a bit about it.. Its actually kinda stupid to say "well, ad-revenue isnt enough anymore - lets charge viewers". If you have strictly a "no pay, no view"-restriction, you will lose more than 50% of the viewership. More likely more than that. So the ad-revenue will go down pretty harsh.
Theres actually no base at all at the moment to charge like 20$ for a MLG. If there is a big game which becomes famous - well, ill watch it later as VOD. Even if they charge for the VODs, some guy from somewhere will share the VOD with me. If there is not, well.. Ill watch another tournament which charges less/offers more.
On our "mainstreet" we have, i think, 6 different hardware-stores. Private, not like DELL or something. 3 of them closed recently, because they tried to price their stuff lower than the other stores and went into bankrupcy (spelled wrong i think). There wouldnt be "awesome esport", there would be "mlg vs ign vs dh vs etc", all of them would try to steal viewers from another tournament. Again: the base is not big enough for that.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I think there's this perception that companies are making money, but I doubt they are.
It's a tough spot. Monetize and people revolt and you die. Don't monetize and you slowly drown. I don't know how it's going to work. Maybe you have to completely level up the broadcast to a completely different place where people expect to pay for that quality? No idea.
Edit: No one seems to treat this as a business. There's a feeling things should be free because they want it to grow. Until we get past that and make it a business, it'll never be more than a niche market, which is fine, but it is what it is.
You're missing the more likely result of complete monetization: The top league becomes filthy rich, and the rest die entirely, reduced to small audiences and "indy league" quality, just like the situation with Professional Wrestling and MMA. And this isn't a what-if scenario, it's the one that exists in SC2 right now.
The GSL is the league, and there is absolutely no argument about that. Viewers can't and won't pay for every tournament, so they are going to be selective about their money, and more often than not, the GSL is going to be the one to get that revenue. In other words, if tournaments like IPL, NASL, MLG, etc. don't stream for free, then they will probably vanish into obscurity.
I think the biggest issue is the mentality that free streams are a "charity model" as you put it, which couldn't be further from the truth. Look at the MMORPG scene, for instance. WoW is the only Pay-to-Play game left, and it dominates everything. How did ever other game remain relevant and profitable? By removing subscriptions entirely, making access to the game 100% free, and then charging for peripherals...and more often than not, that made them even more profitable than before.
I couldn't possibly say what would be smart marketing tactics, or how these tournaments could generate revenue. But I can, and will, say with certainty, that a pay-to-watch business model will only benefit the top-tier organizations, and would be the swiftest way to kill off the ones that aren't on top.
Thank you! Best shit I've read along the complete drivel of posts in this thread.
Personally, as long as things are reasonably priced (more content/production = higher price, 1 weekend tournament = lower), I'm okay with it, but I'm pretty sure I'm in the minority. There are definitely a lot of people not willing to pay for HD streams/vods right now for various reasons as others above me have mentioned.
On the poor college student note, I am one; but I made the conscious decision to eat out less so I could pay for GSL. I end up cooking a little bit more on the weekends instead of eating pizza so much, but it isn't that big of a deal to me. Instead of buying new videogames the week they came out, I buy them a few months later when they are on sale. If you want to cut corners for things you like, you'll find a way, but I understand that some people don't want to. Another point to note that somebody mentioned earlier is that quite a lot of people don't have really good internet (because of availability, location, etc.) so they don't have any motivation to pay for HD streams/vods. They might have good internet at college because of the school's network but not at home, or it's just bad in the area.
It's hard because in order for things to grow, we need to monetize things or leagues will die out because they need to be sustainable. If they can't break even and don't have ridiculous corporate backing, eventually the money dries up and those leagues will disappear. However, since the community is so used to having all this free content already, taking what used to be free and now saying it costs something is an idea a lot of people dislike. If leagues are seriously considering a PPV model, they will really need to increase their production value and execution to make consumers feel that it is worth purchasing. I'm not sure we're at a point where the community can and will support such a model with leagues.
On February 09 2012 16:14 flowSthead wrote: Here's the issue as I see it. It's not a problem with monetization or making people pay the right price. The problem is in convincing people that the price is worth it. Look at this guy a little above me:
On February 09 2012 15:54 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I also find it ridiculous GOM already charges out the ass for their subscription (20$ a month if you want to watch the dual stream when it used to be free for all LOL) while Koreans get to watch it for free (just adverts)
GOM provides one stream for free and a second stream at the exact same time used to be provided for free and this guy is pissed at GOM because he can only pay attention to one game at a time. I understand the frustration because it was something that he thought would be free, but really there has only been one previous GSL season where the dual stream was free (there was no dual stream before that) and one season later people are super pissed off that it isn't free. This is something that didn't exist before for GOM 3 months ago, and all of a sudden it is absolutely essential.
I havent read the rest of your post so Im just quoting this bit.
Yes it only was for 1 previous GSL but thats because GOM keeps changing their league format. They realised oh wow we have too many games lets add a second stream so people can pick and choose what they want to watch.
That was fine, pick between the two its free.
Now since you have to pay 20$+ to watch one or both of the streams (not available to 15$/mo light premium) GOM can decide to put the better games on the 2nd stream which costs money which is fucking stupid and wrong.
I dont even understand why they did this in the first place because they spoil the other match results during the LIVE broadcast so there isnt even a point to watch the VOD later because you already know the match results
First of all, there is no way to determine what the better match will be. But you are right that they spoil the match during the live broadcast and that does suck if all you care about is the result. The VODs are there if you want to watch the game since the result doesn't tell you how it happened.
As for having to pay $20, you can still watch one stream for free. That hasn't changed. You still get 4 best of 3s for free, and it is only for the first two rounds of Code A. All of Code S is still free. It's not stupid and wrong, it's just a different system. Since you get arguably the best games in Code S anyway, you aren't missing out on the best games.
On February 09 2012 16:32 m4inbrain wrote: Just thought a bit about it.. Its actually kinda stupid to say "well, ad-revenue isnt enough anymore - lets charge viewers". If you have strictly a "no pay, no view"-restriction, you will lose more than 50% of the viewership. More likely more than that. So the ad-revenue will go down pretty harsh.
Theres actually no base at all at the moment to charge like 20$ for a MLG. If there is a big game which becomes famous - well, ill watch it later as VOD. Even if they charge for the VODs, some guy from somewhere will share the VOD with me. If there is not, well.. Ill watch another tournament which charges less/offers more.
On our "mainstreet" we have, i think, 6 different hardware-stores. Private, not like DELL or something. 3 of them closed recently, because they tried to price their stuff lower than the other stores and went into bankrupcy (spelled wrong i think). There wouldnt be "awesome esport", there would be "mlg vs ign vs dh vs etc", all of them would try to steal viewers from another tournament. Again: the base is not big enough for that.
First of all, your 50% is a totally made up statistic. If you have a source I would love to read it, but otherwise where do you get that number? It could be 90% or it could be 10%. 50% is completely random.
As for your hardware example, that is a bad example. There are so many places to go buy hardware from and you will be buying the same hardware. If I want to watch DRG vs MMA in an epic best of 7 then I have to pay for the Blizzard Cup. I can't watch DRG vs MMA at some MLG for free because there is no guarantee that I will get that same epic best of 7. It's not comparable. What might happen is I go to watch LoL or Dota instead of SC2 (if you're into that; if all you watch is SC then it won't matter).
If I can turn on a show and watch, reliably, without stupid breaks and failures, with non stop entertainment for 2-3 h, then I will pay. I have only seen this kind of quality reliably from GSL thus far, and I have bought several seasons tickets last year to watch their show. However when I bought MLG, each weekend was full of downtimes and when I had time to watch I could maybe catch one or two matches, sometimes none. That is not the kind of show I have time to watch, and I only kept my membership because I am a huge Starcraft2 E-Sports fan. I think tournaments that start asking for more money/ stop their free stream will have to offer something similar in quality to the GSL or they won't be succesful.
Also if youre not getting a big enough ROI couldnt you just lower the prize pool and stop giving it all expense paid trips to people?
I personally feel the prize pools for these events are far too large in the first place, seems GSL has set the bar on prize winnings and I only thought the prizepools were so large in the GSL because they wanted to try and attract people to switch over from BW etc, which seemed to flop.
I mean they already cut down on amount of GSLs per year and made up for it by doubling the length of the tournament, that saved em $400k alone in prizepool
Let's be honest, fans at this moment pay more to see the players than to get a professional stream. Sure we rage when streams are down, but how many times have you heard the phrase "I payed just to support the event". This is unheard of in a regular business. The price of a ticket should be relevant with what it offers not how much donations the event can get from fans.
If tournaments like NASL like to call themselves a business then class it up like GSL. No more bad interviews, no more bad greenscreen/stages, no more bad casters, no more improvisations, no more excuses, no more ....
GSL at this moment is the benchmark, from a-z. It made me sick to the stomach when NASL charged 10$ for their 1st final and it started 3 hours late with 100 stream problems and people said "IT WILL BE BETTER NEXT TIME"! I don't fucking care. NASL took my money NOW, I want production quality NOW. I am not investing in NASL, but paying to get an immediate product.
So, tournaments should actually make a quality product that worths their money. As it is now, only GSL is on par with television shows.
Sure if it's as good as GSL I'd pay. I've bought every season of GSL since last Jan. Right now the second best tournament in the world is 100x worse than GSL though soo no I wouldn't pay.
On February 09 2012 16:32 m4inbrain wrote: Just thought a bit about it.. Its actually kinda stupid to say "well, ad-revenue isnt enough anymore - lets charge viewers". If you have strictly a "no pay, no view"-restriction, you will lose more than 50% of the viewership. More likely more than that. So the ad-revenue will go down pretty harsh.
Theres actually no base at all at the moment to charge like 20$ for a MLG. If there is a big game which becomes famous - well, ill watch it later as VOD. Even if they charge for the VODs, some guy from somewhere will share the VOD with me. If there is not, well.. Ill watch another tournament which charges less/offers more.
On our "mainstreet" we have, i think, 6 different hardware-stores. Private, not like DELL or something. 3 of them closed recently, because they tried to price their stuff lower than the other stores and went into bankrupcy (spelled wrong i think). There wouldnt be "awesome esport", there would be "mlg vs ign vs dh vs etc", all of them would try to steal viewers from another tournament. Again: the base is not big enough for that.
First of all, your 50% is a totally made up statistic. If you have a source I would love to read it, but otherwise where do you get that number? It could be 90% or it could be 10%. 50% is completely random.
As for your hardware example, that is a bad example. There are so many places to go buy hardware from and you will be buying the same hardware. If I want to watch DRG vs MMA in an epic best of 7 then I have to pay for the Blizzard Cup. I can't watch DRG vs MMA at some MLG for free because there is no guarantee that I will get that same epic best of 7. It's not comparable. What might happen is I go to watch LoL or Dota instead of SC2 (if you're into that; if all you watch is SC then it won't matter).
Its actually no statistic at all (but feel free to start a poll). But a reasonable guess. Watch streamchats, forums etc - you will get the reason.
And of course its comparable. How do you know that your MMA vs DRG will be epic? Could be DRG dronerushing MMA. And apart from that: just look around you. Every single game/sport that has "business" involved is dominated by ONE big league/tournament. Why is that? Someone in this thread actually had the right idea, just think about world of warcraft. How many p2p-MMOs do you see on the market, and better: how do they compare to WoW in terms of subscriptions? Yeah. You guessed right, the only one noteworthy is SWTOR. And well, i just cancelled by sub after the first month, and so did many others.
You cant(!) have 4 big leagues next to each other. That doesnt work. Because business is also about expanding. If you want to expand, you need to kill the other leagues, because no one would actually pay 25$ a month to 4 different leagues. That just wont happen.
Not sure why everyone is so unwilling to pay more for better content. I mean I would personally not like to pay per mlg. I would rather pay for a whole year like the gsl. I mean the production quality is great, the player base is diverse, and the post game antics are well worth the price. Although some people would prefer to have HD quality for free, I think that they should cope with 480 or 360p quality for free. It doesn't make sense to just give every event to people HD for free event after event. What makes the audience deserve it? The ad revenue they generate? HD is a commodity not aomething that everyone is entitled to. Esports should have some pay per view streams for big events or invitationals.
On February 09 2012 17:02 willy001 wrote: Not sure why everyone is so unwilling to pay more for better content. I mean I would personally not like to pay per mlg. I would rather pay for a whole year like the gsl. I mean the production quality is great, the player base is diverse, and the post game antics are well worth the price. Although some people would prefer to have HD quality for free, I think that they should cope with 480 or 360p quality for free. It doesn't make sense to just give every event to people HD for free event after event. What makes the audience deserve it? The ad revenue they generate? HD is a commodity not aomething that everyone is entitled to. Esports should have some pay per view streams for big events or invitationals.
Because the production quality is not up there.
Look at Netflix that asks for 10$/month and gives you access to hundreds of hours of streamed video entertainment. Why would I pay some random enthusiasts that want to make money off of StarCraft. Give me something to buy and I will buy. Don't force me to buy rotten bread.
On February 09 2012 17:02 willy001 wrote: Not sure why everyone is so unwilling to pay more for better content.
Because you dont get better content. You get the same content. The content is generated by the dudes playing, not by MLG itself. They just provide the stream, organisation etc.
You would pay for a better production. And well, before i pay, i want to see that better production - because to be brutally honest (apart from GSL, again), the production sucks in most of the big events. Dreamhack was decent, MLG just sucks, so does IGN. The production is merely above amateurish (note: i dont say i could do it better, but then again, i dont want to charge someone for something), there are technical problems of every sort in almost every event, etc.
Edit: take IEM Sao Paolo as example, Rotterdam and Bitter in some T-Shirts, sweating their asses off (no offense to them of course). Thats for amateurs. Its not just the stream, but every single bit around that. You want to play big as a league? Well better start getting some professionalism in that. No sweaty nerds, no wooden desks painted to look like metal, no "studio" which looks worse than the inside of the shed behind my house, airconditioning for the casters (and a "cosmetic-dude"), stuff like that. May sound exaggerated, but thats what you pay for in PPV. Organisation, professionalism.
Not saying that i dont like the actual stuff, but if you really want to charge me with a lot of money, i want something back in return. And that does not stop after setting up a HQ stream, sorry.
On one hand, do tournament organizers want everything on silver platter? Hell, esports niche is here, work your business models. If it doesnt work out, well, it was never meant to work out - market is such a thing. On the other hand, sure with quality content a lot of people would be willing to support current scene, pay for events, because they love esports. So the possibilities are there, show by example if you know it better.
sc2's young viewers will also get fucked. Hard to imagine kids convincing their parents to fork up $20-$40 for random internet streams if majority leagues do get monetized.
Maybe we need a subscription channel where all of the major networks broadcast their tournaments? $15/month for HD access to GSL/DH/MLG/IPL might entice some people to part with their precious pennies.
On February 09 2012 16:32 m4inbrain wrote: Just thought a bit about it.. Its actually kinda stupid to say "well, ad-revenue isnt enough anymore - lets charge viewers". If you have strictly a "no pay, no view"-restriction, you will lose more than 50% of the viewership. More likely more than that. So the ad-revenue will go down pretty harsh.
Theres actually no base at all at the moment to charge like 20$ for a MLG. If there is a big game which becomes famous - well, ill watch it later as VOD. Even if they charge for the VODs, some guy from somewhere will share the VOD with me. If there is not, well.. Ill watch another tournament which charges less/offers more.
On our "mainstreet" we have, i think, 6 different hardware-stores. Private, not like DELL or something. 3 of them closed recently, because they tried to price their stuff lower than the other stores and went into bankrupcy (spelled wrong i think). There wouldnt be "awesome esport", there would be "mlg vs ign vs dh vs etc", all of them would try to steal viewers from another tournament. Again: the base is not big enough for that.
First of all, your 50% is a totally made up statistic. If you have a source I would love to read it, but otherwise where do you get that number? It could be 90% or it could be 10%. 50% is completely random.
As for your hardware example, that is a bad example. There are so many places to go buy hardware from and you will be buying the same hardware. If I want to watch DRG vs MMA in an epic best of 7 then I have to pay for the Blizzard Cup. I can't watch DRG vs MMA at some MLG for free because there is no guarantee that I will get that same epic best of 7. It's not comparable. What might happen is I go to watch LoL or Dota instead of SC2 (if you're into that; if all you watch is SC then it won't matter).
Its actually no statistic at all (but feel free to start a poll). But a reasonable guess. Watch streamchats, forums etc - you will get the reason.
And of course its comparable. How do you know that your MMA vs DRG will be epic? Could be DRG dronerushing MMA. And apart from that: just look around you. Every single game/sport that has "business" involved is dominated by ONE big league/tournament. Why is that? Someone in this thread actually had the right idea, just think about world of warcraft. How many p2p-MMOs do you see on the market, and better: how do they compare to WoW in terms of subscriptions? Yeah. You guessed right, the only one noteworthy is SWTOR. And well, i just cancelled by sub after the first month, and so did many others.
You cant(!) have 4 big leagues next to each other. That doesnt work. Because business is also about expanding. If you want to expand, you need to kill the other leagues, because no one would actually pay 25$ a month to 4 different leagues. That just wont happen.
Well I know because the games have already happened. My point is exactly that it could be DRG dronerushing MMA over and over again. The games already happened, and there have been plenty of people talking about how great the games were. So now, if I had not already, I could go and buy a Blizzard Cup ticket and watch them.
Killing the other leagues also isn't necessarily a bad thing. If the GSL became the only league in the world, I would also expect there to be more GSL games. FIFA may be the dominant football association, but they run many many tournaments. What's wrong with that exactly?
I mean there is an inherent assumption in the argument that having just one company dominate the landscape will necessarily mean that it will just be the GSL chilling out in the same format with no changes. It could mean the death of SC2 or it could mean the GSL becomes the next FIFA, or anything in between. There is also no reason to assume that there will be a dominant organization. Most of these sports organizations came about at a time before the Internet, and before streaming was the way it is today. Maybe there wouldn't be one dominant organization in most sports if they had been invented post Internet.
Business is also not just about expanding. Expanding is certainly part of it, but a bigger part is sustainability. You can do a lot with a small but loyal customer base that is willing to pay money to see you in any way they can. You don't have to have every single person pay $25 a month for 4 different leagues. Some people will pay for one league only, some for two, some for three. Some people will not pay every month. You will get a mix and different results in different months. You can have 4 leagues survive next to each other, and they probably won't be all the same size, but there doesn't necessarily have to be a clear winner. You could, for example, have pluralities. So GSL has 35% of viewers, MLG has 30%, and IPL/DreamHack/IEM get the other 30% (as an example, I am not saying this will happen). There is little reason to assume that because football, and basketball, and hockey all went this way, that eSports will too. It's a different market and a different technology. It's not as directly comparable as people want it to be. It still needs to be monetized better, but it doesn't have to be monetized the way other sports need to.
Blizzard does not allow their games to be broadcasted/streamed if the only way to view it is by subscribing. There always has to be a free stream (and only higher video quality for e.g, may be charged). Just so you know, as I think some people in this thread are actually not talking about video qualities when they talk of a high quality production - they idea rather is that events like MLG etc shouldn't have a free stream and thereby be unable to be viewer without payment (which as I said is not allowed by blizzard).
On February 09 2012 17:12 NightOfTheDead wrote: @mainbrain MLG sucks? I think you have mixed up something, because you clearly dont belong to the scene. GSL and MLG are top starcraft 2 esports we currently have.
In terms of production? I excluded GSL in all my postings, so i dont know why you bring them up (because i think they are by far the "worthiest" to charge). MLG? Really? Thats what you think is professional production, with arbitrary pause between games, technical difficulties, no "studio", no real concept, membership-problems (silveraccount)? Well, im sorry, if that is good enough for you - feel free do whatever you want.
Btw, dont you think its kinda retarded to say "you dont belong to the scene because you dont share my opinion"? Just saying.
OGN as well as MBC does their stuff without charging anyone a cent because not many would show up/watch esports events that gets charged. And OGN at least is doing fine.
On February 09 2012 17:25 Nayl wrote: OGN as well as MBC does their stuff without charging anyone a cent because not many would show up/watch esports events that gets charged. And OGN at least is doing fine.
They are both cable channels. I assume that means they have commercials and people would pay to have the channel. Just because we in the foreign community would watch games on YouTube or restreamed, does not mean their main source of revenue wasn't a mainstream source. MLG doesn't have a cable channel so it's not really comparable.
On February 09 2012 17:12 NightOfTheDead wrote: @mainbrain MLG sucks? I think you have mixed up something, because you clearly dont belong to the scene. GSL and MLG are top starcraft 2 esports we currently have.
In terms of production? I excluded GSL in all my postings, so i dont know why you bring them up (because i think they are by far the "worthiest" to charge). MLG? Really? Thats what you think is professional production, with arbitrary pause between games, technical difficulties, no "studio", no real concept, membership-problems (silveraccount)? Well, im sorry, if that is good enough for you - feel free do whatever you want.
Btw, dont you think its kinda retarded to say "you dont belong to the scene because you dont share my opinion"? Just saying.
Yea, i actually wanted to know why u think MLG sucks. Although, have in mind, before sc2, worldwide esports scene and infrastructure have been almost non-existant (speaking about RTS), apart from Korea. We cannot expect to have everything in few years. In other words, the expectations shouldnt be as high as production that are on TV shows, or high-profile sports, and whatnot.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I think there's this perception that companies are making money, but I doubt they are.
It's a tough spot. Monetize and people revolt and you die. Don't monetize and you slowly drown. I don't know how it's going to work. Maybe you have to completely level up the broadcast to a completely different place where people expect to pay for that quality? No idea.
Edit: No one seems to treat this as a business. There's a feeling things should be free because they want it to grow. Until we get past that and make it a business, it'll never be more than a niche market, which is fine, but it is what it is.
Well it doesn't make much sense to compare the money in the sc2-sport to things that are literally huge compared it. I'm sure there is a way to generate decent money with sc2 as it is but shouldn't the main goal for everyone right now be to try make it more popular?
How do we even know if for example GOM's way is actually good for the scene. How many premium subscribers can they have, a few thousands, if that? If you had to pay $20 to watch any sc2 event right now would those "big" perhaps 2000 viewer events be good for the future of the scene or detrimental?
Personally I doubt that the fact that people are used to getting most sc2 content for free is a "problem" right now and I'm not sure it will ever be one. I mean how many paying viewers could you realistically expect an event to get that gets for example 50k viewers when it's free. 10% probably isn't even on the map even if it was like $3 never used to be free.
On February 09 2012 16:32 m4inbrain wrote: Just thought a bit about it.. Its actually kinda stupid to say "well, ad-revenue isnt enough anymore - lets charge viewers". If you have strictly a "no pay, no view"-restriction, you will lose more than 50% of the viewership. More likely more than that. So the ad-revenue will go down pretty harsh.
Theres actually no base at all at the moment to charge like 20$ for a MLG. If there is a big game which becomes famous - well, ill watch it later as VOD. Even if they charge for the VODs, some guy from somewhere will share the VOD with me. If there is not, well.. Ill watch another tournament which charges less/offers more.
On our "mainstreet" we have, i think, 6 different hardware-stores. Private, not like DELL or something. 3 of them closed recently, because they tried to price their stuff lower than the other stores and went into bankrupcy (spelled wrong i think). There wouldnt be "awesome esport", there would be "mlg vs ign vs dh vs etc", all of them would try to steal viewers from another tournament. Again: the base is not big enough for that.
First of all, your 50% is a totally made up statistic. If you have a source I would love to read it, but otherwise where do you get that number? It could be 90% or it could be 10%. 50% is completely random.
As for your hardware example, that is a bad example. There are so many places to go buy hardware from and you will be buying the same hardware. If I want to watch DRG vs MMA in an epic best of 7 then I have to pay for the Blizzard Cup. I can't watch DRG vs MMA at some MLG for free because there is no guarantee that I will get that same epic best of 7. It's not comparable. What might happen is I go to watch LoL or Dota instead of SC2 (if you're into that; if all you watch is SC then it won't matter).
Its actually no statistic at all (but feel free to start a poll). But a reasonable guess. Watch streamchats, forums etc - you will get the reason.
And of course its comparable. How do you know that your MMA vs DRG will be epic? Could be DRG dronerushing MMA. And apart from that: just look around you. Every single game/sport that has "business" involved is dominated by ONE big league/tournament. Why is that? Someone in this thread actually had the right idea, just think about world of warcraft. How many p2p-MMOs do you see on the market, and better: how do they compare to WoW in terms of subscriptions? Yeah. You guessed right, the only one noteworthy is SWTOR. And well, i just cancelled by sub after the first month, and so did many others.
You cant(!) have 4 big leagues next to each other. That doesnt work. Because business is also about expanding. If you want to expand, you need to kill the other leagues, because no one would actually pay 25$ a month to 4 different leagues. That just wont happen.
There is little reason to assume that because football, and basketball, and hockey all went this way, that eSports will too. It's a different market and a different technology. It's not as directly comparable as people want it to be. It still needs to be monetized better, but it doesn't have to be monetized the way other sports need to.
Wait. It happened to every (and i mean: every) sport so far, and thats just "little reason"? You are damn right its a different market, especially because its a sooooo much smaller market. Even on free streams, what was the highest amount of viewers you saw? 100k? Iirc (maybe wrong, but im pretty sure) the highest number i saw was round about 150k. Thats 150000 persons watching a FREE stream. 150000. Any idea how small of a number that is? Its literally nothing. There are stadiums out there, in which you could fit more than that. So now you want cancel free streams, and charge. You lose lets say 50k viewers. 100k left. How do you aquire new ones? As you said, Starcraft is NOT football. Or baseball. Or basketball, or anything else that we played as kids (and our parents, and their parents, and THEIR parents etc). You need to have a special interest in starcraft, to watch these streams. If you just want to watch exciting sport, there are tons of them out there, in the TV, for free. So how do you advertise your stream to grow? Its completely pointless to even discuss it, because it cant work. Its not like millions and billions of people watch starcraft 2. Its actually a really small part, even smaller than WoW, LoL or DoTA(2).
Also, if its true what someone just pointed out, well.. Its even "pointlessier" (oO) to discuss, because it cant actually happen.
Yea, i actually wanted to know why u think MLG sucks. Although, have in mind, before sc2, worldwide esports scene and infrastructure have been almost non-existant (speaking about RTS), apart from Korea. We cannot expect to have everything in few years. In other words, the expectations shouldnt be as high as production that are on TV shows, or high-profile sports, and whatnot.
You know what? I agree completely. But the same goes for fees/charges.
On February 09 2012 17:12 NightOfTheDead wrote: @mainbrain MLG sucks? I think you have mixed up something, because you clearly dont belong to the scene. GSL and MLG are top starcraft 2 esports we currently have.
In terms of production? I excluded GSL in all my postings, so i dont know why you bring them up (because i think they are by far the "worthiest" to charge). MLG? Really? Thats what you think is professional production, with arbitrary pause between games, technical difficulties, no "studio", no real concept, membership-problems (silveraccount)? Well, im sorry, if that is good enough for you - feel free do whatever you want.
Btw, dont you think its kinda retarded to say "you dont belong to the scene because you dont share my opinion"? Just saying.
Yea, i actually wanted to know why u think MLG sucks. Although, have in mind, before sc2, worldwide esports scene and infrastructure have been almost non-existant (speaking about RTS), apart from Korea. We cannot expect to have everything in few years. In other words, the expectations shouldnt be as high as production that are on TV shows, or high-profile sports, and whatnot.
Lol are you troll or for serious? Have in mind that Jared is trying to compare SC2 to UFC & WWe and says we should charge in a way that they do and then you tell mainbrain that he can't compare it as well? If you're going to charge people 25$ or whatever for 3 days and the production value isn't top notch and their main reasoning so far is; well it needs to be like WWE because thats the only way it'll be successful but don't compare our production to that which I just compared to because we havn't grown enough. If we havn't grown enough then don't try and adopt a system which is clearly more advanced.
On February 09 2012 17:12 NightOfTheDead wrote: @mainbrain MLG sucks? I think you have mixed up something, because you clearly dont belong to the scene. GSL and MLG are top starcraft 2 esports we currently have.
In terms of production? I excluded GSL in all my postings, so i dont know why you bring them up (because i think they are by far the "worthiest" to charge). MLG? Really? Thats what you think is professional production, with arbitrary pause between games, technical difficulties, no "studio", no real concept, membership-problems (silveraccount)? Well, im sorry, if that is good enough for you - feel free do whatever you want.
Btw, dont you think its kinda retarded to say "you dont belong to the scene because you dont share my opinion"? Just saying.
Yea, i actually wanted to know why u think MLG sucks. Although, have in mind, before sc2, worldwide esports scene and infrastructure have been almost non-existant (speaking about RTS), apart from Korea. We cannot expect to have everything in few years. In other words, the expectations shouldnt be as high as production that are on TV shows, or high-profile sports, and whatnot.
Oh, so we should have our standards lowered because the industry is growing but the wallet wide open to support the event and the trouble they are putting through?
I don't know what's wrong with the current system with free LQ-stream and PPV-HD Stream. Most leagues do this. The only big event that gives HD stream for free is Dreamhack, which has by the way the best production of all the foreign leagues.
Esports absolutely needs to keep pushing towards monetization. It's a fine line, and each content provider will need to find their own price point, but in order for this to be a viable business model they must monetize. Consumers will pay as long as the price is appropriate for the product.
On February 09 2012 17:02 willy001 wrote: Not sure why everyone is so unwilling to pay more for better content.
Because you dont get better content. You get the same content. The content is generated by the dudes playing, not by MLG itself. They just provide the stream, organisation etc.
You would pay for a better production. And well, before i pay, i want to see that better production - because to be brutally honest (apart from GSL, again), the production sucks in most of the big events. Dreamhack was decent, MLG just sucks, so does IGN. The production is merely above amateurish (note: i dont say i could do it better, but then again, i dont want to charge someone for something), there are technical problems of every sort in almost every event, etc.
Edit: take IGN Sao Paolo as example, Rotterdam and Bitter in some T-Shirts, sweating their asses off (no offense to them of course). Thats for amateurs. Its not just the stream, but every single bit around that. You want to play big as a league? Well better start getting some professionalism in that. No sweaty nerds, no wooden desks painted to look like metal, no "studio" which looks worse than the inside of the shed behind my house, airconditioning for the casters (and a "cosmetic-dude"), stuff like that. May sound exaggerated, but thats what you pay for in PPV. Organisation, professionalism.
Not saying that i dont like the actual stuff, but if you really want to charge me with a lot of money, i want something back in return. And that does not stop after setting up a HQ stream, sorry.
Just to clarify, are you talking about IEM, IGN Pro League or both? I think IPL 3 did a good job regarding content on their main event.
On February 09 2012 17:12 NightOfTheDead wrote: @mainbrain MLG sucks? I think you have mixed up something, because you clearly dont belong to the scene. GSL and MLG are top starcraft 2 esports we currently have.
In terms of production? I excluded GSL in all my postings, so i dont know why you bring them up (because i think they are by far the "worthiest" to charge). MLG? Really? Thats what you think is professional production, with arbitrary pause between games, technical difficulties, no "studio", no real concept, membership-problems (silveraccount)? Well, im sorry, if that is good enough for you - feel free do whatever you want.
Btw, dont you think its kinda retarded to say "you dont belong to the scene because you dont share my opinion"? Just saying.
Yea, i actually wanted to know why u think MLG sucks. Although, have in mind, before sc2, worldwide esports scene and infrastructure have been almost non-existant (speaking about RTS), apart from Korea. We cannot expect to have everything in few years. In other words, the expectations shouldnt be as high as production that are on TV shows, or high-profile sports, and whatnot.
While I am not getting proper production I don't see why I ought to be paying proper prices.
On February 09 2012 17:02 willy001 wrote: Not sure why everyone is so unwilling to pay more for better content.
Because you dont get better content. You get the same content. The content is generated by the dudes playing, not by MLG itself. They just provide the stream, organisation etc.
You would pay for a better production. And well, before i pay, i want to see that better production - because to be brutally honest (apart from GSL, again), the production sucks in most of the big events. Dreamhack was decent, MLG just sucks, so does IGN. The production is merely above amateurish (note: i dont say i could do it better, but then again, i dont want to charge someone for something), there are technical problems of every sort in almost every event, etc.
Edit: take IGN Sao Paolo as example, Rotterdam and Bitter in some T-Shirts, sweating their asses off (no offense to them of course). Thats for amateurs. Its not just the stream, but every single bit around that. You want to play big as a league? Well better start getting some professionalism in that. No sweaty nerds, no wooden desks painted to look like metal, no "studio" which looks worse than the inside of the shed behind my house, airconditioning for the casters (and a "cosmetic-dude"), stuff like that. May sound exaggerated, but thats what you pay for in PPV. Organisation, professionalism.
Not saying that i dont like the actual stuff, but if you really want to charge me with a lot of money, i want something back in return. And that does not stop after setting up a HQ stream, sorry.
Just to clarify, are you talking about IEM or IGN Pro League?
Argh, IEM, of course. Im sorry, will edit that.
Edit: well IPL3 was decent, but actually, there were problems as well. Starting with the internet-crash, open bracket pretty boring (i wouldnt pay for that), etc.
But again, decent overall. But far away from the premium-content you need to have to be able to charge "big money".
I didn't read any replies but, LordJerith is fucking right he fucking got the idea of f ... okay i like his rant, but all in all he got it right. Listen to people who know how businesses are run.
On February 09 2012 17:02 willy001 wrote: Not sure why everyone is so unwilling to pay more for better content.
Because you dont get better content. You get the same content. The content is generated by the dudes playing, not by MLG itself. They just provide the stream, organisation etc.
You would pay for a better production. And well, before i pay, i want to see that better production - because to be brutally honest (apart from GSL, again), the production sucks in most of the big events. Dreamhack was decent, MLG just sucks, so does IGN. The production is merely above amateurish (note: i dont say i could do it better, but then again, i dont want to charge someone for something), there are technical problems of every sort in almost every event, etc.
Edit: take IGN Sao Paolo as example, Rotterdam and Bitter in some T-Shirts, sweating their asses off (no offense to them of course). Thats for amateurs. Its not just the stream, but every single bit around that. You want to play big as a league? Well better start getting some professionalism in that. No sweaty nerds, no wooden desks painted to look like metal, no "studio" which looks worse than the inside of the shed behind my house, airconditioning for the casters (and a "cosmetic-dude"), stuff like that. May sound exaggerated, but thats what you pay for in PPV. Organisation, professionalism.
Not saying that i dont like the actual stuff, but if you really want to charge me with a lot of money, i want something back in return. And that does not stop after setting up a HQ stream, sorry.
Just to clarify, are you talking about IEM or IGN Pro League?
So you don't understand this text unless we clarify whether or not it's supposed to be IEM Sao Paolo or IGN Sao Paolo? Before asking the question of which it is, should you not ask yourself first when has there ever been an IGN Pro League Sao Paolo going on? Because I think it'd be harder to misspell(or get mixed up) the IGN/IEM part rather than the Sao Paolo/Pro League part.
On February 09 2012 17:12 NightOfTheDead wrote: @mainbrain MLG sucks? I think you have mixed up something, because you clearly dont belong to the scene. GSL and MLG are top starcraft 2 esports we currently have.
In terms of production? I excluded GSL in all my postings, so i dont know why you bring them up (because i think they are by far the "worthiest" to charge). MLG? Really? Thats what you think is professional production, with arbitrary pause between games, technical difficulties, no "studio", no real concept, membership-problems (silveraccount)? Well, im sorry, if that is good enough for you - feel free do whatever you want.
Btw, dont you think its kinda retarded to say "you dont belong to the scene because you dont share my opinion"? Just saying.
Yea, i actually wanted to know why u think MLG sucks. Although, have in mind, before sc2, worldwide esports scene and infrastructure have been almost non-existant (speaking about RTS), apart from Korea. We cannot expect to have everything in few years. In other words, the expectations shouldnt be as high as production that are on TV shows, or high-profile sports, and whatnot.
Lol are you troll or for serious? Have in mind that Jared is trying to compare SC2 to UFC & WWe and says we should charge in a way that they do and then you tell mainbrain that he can't compare it as well? If you're going to charge people 25$ or whatever for 3 days and the production value isn't top notch and their main reasoning so far is; well it needs to be like WWE because thats the only way it'll be successful but don't compare our production to that which I just compared to because we havn't grown enough. If we havn't grown enough then don't try and adopt a system which is clearly more advanced.
I agree with this. Besides, the point I believe m4inbrain was trying to make is that GSL has by far the best production value (which is true), and every other org. is mediocre in comparison. The UFC is the top MMA organization, which is why people are willing to pay. Smaller MMA orgs like Bellator have much smaller viewership and less people who pay, because the quality is inferior. Orgs. like MLG and IGN who have worse products shouldn't expect to be able to charge GSL prices for a product that is not GSL caliber.
On February 09 2012 17:12 NightOfTheDead wrote: @mainbrain MLG sucks? I think you have mixed up something, because you clearly dont belong to the scene. GSL and MLG are top starcraft 2 esports we currently have.
In terms of production? I excluded GSL in all my postings, so i dont know why you bring them up (because i think they are by far the "worthiest" to charge). MLG? Really? Thats what you think is professional production, with arbitrary pause between games, technical difficulties, no "studio", no real concept, membership-problems (silveraccount)? Well, im sorry, if that is good enough for you - feel free do whatever you want.
Btw, dont you think its kinda retarded to say "you dont belong to the scene because you dont share my opinion"? Just saying.
Yea, i actually wanted to know why u think MLG sucks. Although, have in mind, before sc2, worldwide esports scene and infrastructure have been almost non-existant (speaking about RTS), apart from Korea. We cannot expect to have everything in few years. In other words, the expectations shouldnt be as high as production that are on TV shows, or high-profile sports, and whatnot.
Oh, so we should have our standards lowered because the industry is growing but the wallet wide open to support the event and the trouble they are putting through?
Simple answer would be yes, if you are a fan. And no, if you think there are alternatives, that would bring higher values for the price. Or was it a rhetoric question?
On February 09 2012 17:02 willy001 wrote: Not sure why everyone is so unwilling to pay more for better content.
Because you dont get better content. You get the same content. The content is generated by the dudes playing, not by MLG itself. They just provide the stream, organisation etc.
You would pay for a better production. And well, before i pay, i want to see that better production - because to be brutally honest (apart from GSL, again), the production sucks in most of the big events. Dreamhack was decent, MLG just sucks, so does IGN. The production is merely above amateurish (note: i dont say i could do it better, but then again, i dont want to charge someone for something), there are technical problems of every sort in almost every event, etc.
Edit: take IGN Sao Paolo as example, Rotterdam and Bitter in some T-Shirts, sweating their asses off (no offense to them of course). Thats for amateurs. Its not just the stream, but every single bit around that. You want to play big as a league? Well better start getting some professionalism in that. No sweaty nerds, no wooden desks painted to look like metal, no "studio" which looks worse than the inside of the shed behind my house, airconditioning for the casters (and a "cosmetic-dude"), stuff like that. May sound exaggerated, but thats what you pay for in PPV. Organisation, professionalism.
Not saying that i dont like the actual stuff, but if you really want to charge me with a lot of money, i want something back in return. And that does not stop after setting up a HQ stream, sorry.
Just to clarify, are you talking about IEM or IGN Pro League?
Argh, IEM, of course. Im sorry, will edit that.
Thx man. I have to say you have a good point. I wouldn't mind pay for tournaments iif they step their shit up. Not only on the production value but also on the content part. I think IPL 3 did a very good job when it comes down to extra content.
Also something to think about here is that by removing the free low res options from events I think its safe to say that your total amount of viewers is reduced. This matters when trying to secure funds via ads.
If you go to a company and say we got 10k paid subscribers or you go to a company and say we got 100k free viewers. They are obviously going to prefer the 100k viewer number.
Another question is the PPV WWF and UFC even a good successful working model? Look at all the 'leagues' that use to exist that have now gone bankrupt or merged like Pride, WCW and ECW.
I've noticed that even UFC seems to be moving away from purely PPV and cable as they now have a partnership with fox sports.
Then look at something like the NFL, revenue as far as I understand is largely driven by ads and the sale of team apparel. The super bowl is free to watch and the ads cost marketers millions of dollars. With the increased viewers numbers comes more ad revenue.
Relatively the total number of viewers we have right now is kinda small and by further reducing it by forcing people to pay may kill some the leagues.
Edit: Also as a side note I bought an MLG pass last year to support them and by proxy the players. I honestly think the production value of MLG are fairly well done. The total amount of hrs of entertainment I get vs the cost is spectacular.
Monetizing the numerous big Western Tournaments would be a a mistake unless it is at a very reasonable cost. There are about 4-5 big tournaments such as the NASL, MLG, IPL, IEM already and if all of them were to charge $50 for every season, what is going to happen? Multiply that by 6 if we count the GSL and we don't even need to argue anymore.
I dont know what kind of rich family the target audience live in that would gladly pay more than $100 a year for watching SC2 and that's only assuming 1 season per year. We are talking about the budgets of normal fans of a niche industry aging from 14 to early 30s here. Finding more sponsors and buying more adverts while continuing the present model is the most reasonable way to maintain the popularity of this scene. Going PPV in the manner of other hardcore sports only makes sense when there is only one big tournament and league, and even then that would only work in NA, not in other countries that don't have that.
On February 09 2012 17:12 NightOfTheDead wrote: @mainbrain MLG sucks? I think you have mixed up something, because you clearly dont belong to the scene. GSL and MLG are top starcraft 2 esports we currently have.
In terms of production? I excluded GSL in all my postings, so i dont know why you bring them up (because i think they are by far the "worthiest" to charge). MLG? Really? Thats what you think is professional production, with arbitrary pause between games, technical difficulties, no "studio", no real concept, membership-problems (silveraccount)? Well, im sorry, if that is good enough for you - feel free do whatever you want.
Btw, dont you think its kinda retarded to say "you dont belong to the scene because you dont share my opinion"? Just saying.
Yea, i actually wanted to know why u think MLG sucks. Although, have in mind, before sc2, worldwide esports scene and infrastructure have been almost non-existant (speaking about RTS), apart from Korea. We cannot expect to have everything in few years. In other words, the expectations shouldnt be as high as production that are on TV shows, or high-profile sports, and whatnot.
Lol are you troll or for serious? Have in mind that Jared is trying to compare SC2 to UFC & WWe and says we should charge in a way that they do and then you tell mainbrain that he can't compare it as well? If you're going to charge people 25$ or whatever for 3 days and the production value isn't top notch and their main reasoning so far is; well it needs to be like WWE because thats the only way it'll be successful but don't compare our production to that which I just compared to because we havn't grown enough. If we havn't grown enough then don't try and adopt a system which is clearly more advanced.
I agree with this. Besides, the point I believe m4inbrain was trying to make is that GSL has by far the best production value (which is true), and every other org. is mediocre in comparison. The UFC is the top MMA organization, which is why people are willing to pay. Smaller MMA orgs like Bellator have much smaller viewership and less people who pay, because the quality is inferior. Orgs. like MLG and IGN who have worse products shouldn't expect to be able to charge GSL prices for a product that is not GSL caliber.
Pretty much that. I actually am awake for 36 hours straight now, i cant even follow a proper thought in my mothertongue, let alone in english. Ill tap out of this, maybe ill join after a good day/nights sleep.
But yeah, pretty much what you said is my opinion, but in nicer words.
On February 09 2012 17:53 bubblegumbo wrote: Monetizing the numerous big Western Tournaments would be a a mistake unless it is at a very reasonable cost. There are about 4-5 big tournaments such as the NASL, MLG, IPL, IEM already and if all of them were to charge $50 for every season, what is going to happen? Multiply that by 6 if we count the GSL and we don't even need to argue anymore.
I dont know what kind of rich family the target audience live in that would gladly pay more than $100 a year for watching SC2 and that's only assuming 1 season per year. We are talking about the budgets of normal fans of a niche industry aging from 14 to early 30s here. Finding more sponsors and buying more adverts while continuing the present model is the most reasonable way to maintain the popularity of this scene. Going PPV in the manner of other hardcore sports only makes sense when there is only one big tournament and league, and even then that would only work in NA, not in other countries that don't have that.
Are u kidding me? Did you listen his rant? How often do you go to cinema, drinking senseless, eating at MC if u ahve a full fridge? Dude those perspectives like yours are from guys who got illusioned by the "internet". The life is not for free. You normally CAN'T listen to music everywhere everyday everytime for free. You CAN'T watch movies and series for free everytime everywhere everyday. Did you even know you pay for TV?
And I for me allready pay for MLG, HSC and GSL. The Tournies I watch regularly.
On February 09 2012 16:32 m4inbrain wrote: Just thought a bit about it.. Its actually kinda stupid to say "well, ad-revenue isnt enough anymore - lets charge viewers". If you have strictly a "no pay, no view"-restriction, you will lose more than 50% of the viewership. More likely more than that. So the ad-revenue will go down pretty harsh.
Theres actually no base at all at the moment to charge like 20$ for a MLG. If there is a big game which becomes famous - well, ill watch it later as VOD. Even if they charge for the VODs, some guy from somewhere will share the VOD with me. If there is not, well.. Ill watch another tournament which charges less/offers more.
On our "mainstreet" we have, i think, 6 different hardware-stores. Private, not like DELL or something. 3 of them closed recently, because they tried to price their stuff lower than the other stores and went into bankrupcy (spelled wrong i think). There wouldnt be "awesome esport", there would be "mlg vs ign vs dh vs etc", all of them would try to steal viewers from another tournament. Again: the base is not big enough for that.
First of all, your 50% is a totally made up statistic. If you have a source I would love to read it, but otherwise where do you get that number? It could be 90% or it could be 10%. 50% is completely random.
As for your hardware example, that is a bad example. There are so many places to go buy hardware from and you will be buying the same hardware. If I want to watch DRG vs MMA in an epic best of 7 then I have to pay for the Blizzard Cup. I can't watch DRG vs MMA at some MLG for free because there is no guarantee that I will get that same epic best of 7. It's not comparable. What might happen is I go to watch LoL or Dota instead of SC2 (if you're into that; if all you watch is SC then it won't matter).
Its actually no statistic at all (but feel free to start a poll). But a reasonable guess. Watch streamchats, forums etc - you will get the reason.
And of course its comparable. How do you know that your MMA vs DRG will be epic? Could be DRG dronerushing MMA. And apart from that: just look around you. Every single game/sport that has "business" involved is dominated by ONE big league/tournament. Why is that? Someone in this thread actually had the right idea, just think about world of warcraft. How many p2p-MMOs do you see on the market, and better: how do they compare to WoW in terms of subscriptions? Yeah. You guessed right, the only one noteworthy is SWTOR. And well, i just cancelled by sub after the first month, and so did many others.
You cant(!) have 4 big leagues next to each other. That doesnt work. Because business is also about expanding. If you want to expand, you need to kill the other leagues, because no one would actually pay 25$ a month to 4 different leagues. That just wont happen.
think ufc is the only mma promoter? think it was always the biggest? it became dominate by producing a better product than its competitors, which got driven out cuz they couldnt keep up. that caused all the best fighters to go to ufc and gave them more money and to host bigger, more frequent events.
there are too many tournaments. players cant afford to go to all of them. for the time being you still get the best koreans playing against each other in gsl for various practical reasons, but more and more koreans are looking to foreign teams. and if you want to see the best foreigners competing against each other or against top koreans, you're gonna have to start weeding out tournaments. its already started to happen, you dont get to see nestea vs mkp or stephano vs huk in a couple weeks cuz two of them are going to assembly and two of them are going to mlg.
you're always going to have free content in user streams and smaller online tournaments. people who are into computer games, who can afford to spend 60$ on sc2, are not THAT stressed for money. they can afford to pay for a product that is as entertaining and high quality as what mlg and ipl have put out, and given that more stable, profitable business model that product will only get better.
I pay for GSL, but that's mainly for vods, not for the HQ stream. If MLG start charging their streams, I'm not so sure whether I would pay for it, I might just sway to one of the free alternatives. But the MLG changed a lot from 2011 to 2012, maybe I need to revaluate my opinion of it.
On February 09 2012 18:00 Sky0 wrote: Put on PPV on real tv and now were talking.
allready happening here dude. Its just about the business model. Like Jerith said; twitch.tv as the cable company, the Tournies as the channel. And here u go: pay X per year and watch. ezpz
On February 09 2012 17:53 bubblegumbo wrote: Monetizing the numerous big Western Tournaments would be a a mistake unless it is at a very reasonable cost. There are about 4-5 big tournaments such as the NASL, MLG, IPL, IEM already and if all of them were to charge $50 for every season, what is going to happen? Multiply that by 6 if we count the GSL and we don't even need to argue anymore.
I dont know what kind of rich family the target audience live in that would gladly pay more than $100 a year for watching SC2 and that's only assuming 1 season per year. We are talking about the budgets of normal fans of a niche industry aging from 14 to early 30s here. Finding more sponsors and buying more adverts while continuing the present model is the most reasonable way to maintain the popularity of this scene. Going PPV in the manner of other hardcore sports only makes sense when there is only one big tournament and league, and even then that would only work in NA, not in other countries that don't have that.
Are u kidding me? Did you listen his rant? How often do you go to cinema, drinking senseless, eating at MC if u ahve a full fridge? Dude those perspectices like yours are from guys who got illusioned by the "internet". The life is not for free. You normally CAN'T listen to music everywhere everyday everytime for free. You CAN'T watch movies and series for free everytime everywhere everyday. Did you even know you pay for TV?
Well, ever heard about Hartz4? As a german, im sure you know that term. What do you think, its just a german problem? I have to work hard for my money, others just DONT HAVE IT. I dont know what you do for a living, but i have rent to pay, a car to insure, a family to feed. Maybe if you are some decadent child with absolutely no relationship to money, yeah, then its easy to take 25 bucks from somewhere and dump it into crap. I cant (and wont).
And yeah i have to pay GEZ from my own money, not the money from my parents (or pirated). Even more reason.
Actually, its really ridiculous how many people dont have any sense for money. Mindboggling.
On February 09 2012 17:53 bubblegumbo wrote: Monetizing the numerous big Western Tournaments would be a a mistake unless it is at a very reasonable cost. There are about 4-5 big tournaments such as the NASL, MLG, IPL, IEM already and if all of them were to charge $50 for every season, what is going to happen? Multiply that by 6 if we count the GSL and we don't even need to argue anymore.
I dont know what kind of rich family the target audience live in that would gladly pay more than $100 a year for watching SC2 and that's only assuming 1 season per year. We are talking about the budgets of normal fans of a niche industry aging from 14 to early 30s here. Finding more sponsors and buying more adverts while continuing the present model is the most reasonable way to maintain the popularity of this scene. Going PPV in the manner of other hardcore sports only makes sense when there is only one big tournament and league, and even then that would only work in NA, not in other countries that don't have that.
Are u kidding me? Did you listen his rant? How often do you go to cinema, drinking senseless, eating at MC if u ahve a full fridge? Dude those perspectices like yours are from guys who got illusioned by the "internet". The life is not for free. You normally CAN'T listen to music everywhere everyday everytime for free. You CAN'T watch movies and series for free everytime everywhere everyday. Did you even know you pay for TV?
Well, ever heard about Hartz4? As a german, im sure you know that term. What do you think, its just a german problem? I have to work hard for my money, others just DONT HAVE IT. I dont know what you do for a living, but i have rent to pay, a car to insure, a family to feed. Maybe if you are some decadent child with absolutely no relationship to money, yeah, then its easy to take 25 bucks from somewhere and dump it into crap. I cant (and wont).
And yeah i have to pay GEZ from my own money, not the money from my parents (or pirated). Even more reason.
Actually, its really ridiculous how many people dont have any sense for money. Mindboggling.
you say while arguing that you deserve to be entertained for free
On February 09 2012 17:53 bubblegumbo wrote: Monetizing the numerous big Western Tournaments would be a a mistake unless it is at a very reasonable cost. There are about 4-5 big tournaments such as the NASL, MLG, IPL, IEM already and if all of them were to charge $50 for every season, what is going to happen? Multiply that by 6 if we count the GSL and we don't even need to argue anymore.
I dont know what kind of rich family the target audience live in that would gladly pay more than $100 a year for watching SC2 and that's only assuming 1 season per year. We are talking about the budgets of normal fans of a niche industry aging from 14 to early 30s here. Finding more sponsors and buying more adverts while continuing the present model is the most reasonable way to maintain the popularity of this scene. Going PPV in the manner of other hardcore sports only makes sense when there is only one big tournament and league, and even then that would only work in NA, not in other countries that don't have that.
Are u kidding me? Did you listen his rant? How often do you go to cinema, drinking senseless, eating at MC if u ahve a full fridge? Dude those perspectives like yours are from guys who got illusioned by the "internet". The life is not for free. You normally CAN'T listen to music everywhere everyday everytime for free. You CAN'T watch movies and series for free everytime everywhere everyday. Did you even know you pay for TV?
And I for me allready pay for MLG, HSC and GSL. The Tournies I watch regularly.
And that attitude is the internet's great contribution to humanity.
i would never pay for any non-korean tournament; foreigners simply aren't good enough. also i don't want to support someone who puts LoL finals in the middle of sc2 broadcast
i haven't paid for any stream and will not ever pay. Not because i don't have the money, but i don't find it that important to me. For example GSL is on during work hours and i can't watch the free stream. So, i never watch GSL.
And the idea that starcraft 2 can be compared to UFC or WWE to request a PPV is atrocious. There are countless tourneys and streams in SC2. How may UFCs are there in the world. Only 1. You can ask for PPV when you have exclusivity, but right now sc2 events do not have it. Players can be seen at multiple tourneys and the production value is not worth spending money on it.
On February 09 2012 17:53 bubblegumbo wrote: Monetizing the numerous big Western Tournaments would be a a mistake unless it is at a very reasonable cost. There are about 4-5 big tournaments such as the NASL, MLG, IPL, IEM already and if all of them were to charge $50 for every season, what is going to happen? Multiply that by 6 if we count the GSL and we don't even need to argue anymore.
I dont know what kind of rich family the target audience live in that would gladly pay more than $100 a year for watching SC2 and that's only assuming 1 season per year. We are talking about the budgets of normal fans of a niche industry aging from 14 to early 30s here. Finding more sponsors and buying more adverts while continuing the present model is the most reasonable way to maintain the popularity of this scene. Going PPV in the manner of other hardcore sports only makes sense when there is only one big tournament and league, and even then that would only work in NA, not in other countries that don't have that.
Are u kidding me? Did you listen his rant? How often do you go to cinema, drinking senseless, eating at MC if u ahve a full fridge? Dude those perspectices like yours are from guys who got illusioned by the "internet". The life is not for free. You normally CAN'T listen to music everywhere everyday everytime for free. You CAN'T watch movies and series for free everytime everywhere everyday. Did you even know you pay for TV?
Well, ever heard about Hartz4? As a german, im sure you know that term. What do you think, its just a german problem? I have to work hard for my money, others just DONT HAVE IT. I dont know what you do for a living, but i have rent to pay, a car to insure, a family to feed. Maybe if you are some decadent child with absolutely no relationship to money, yeah, then its easy to take 25 bucks from somewhere and dump it into crap. I cant (and wont).
And yeah i have to pay GEZ from my own money, not the money from my parents (or pirated). Even more reason.
Actually, its really ridiculous how many people dont have any sense for money. Mindboggling.
So if you call SC2 crap then you shouldn't pay for it and go with it. As i said Life is not for free. If you can't afford something, then you can't. If you want something really hard and can't afford it now, you need to safe for it. I'm sorry for your problems but dude thats not even 80% of the people who recieve hartz4 and please don't try to add some characteristical views to some persons posts if you don't know them. I always had a job when i was at school had about 15€ from my parents to spend till I was 18 and bought games and had fun. Now I'm 23 and I have more money to spent then ever because I work, do I have too much money? No. Because i spent the money on things I like. Do I like good food? Hell yea, and thats why I like a good and tasty chunk of meat and buy it instead of noodles.
And just look into some random household in germany, guess what the all have 40"++ LCD TVs, 1-4 PCs, 6-16Mbit minimum flatrate, mobiles with flatrate models ... and you now want to tell me because of the 10-20% who REALLY can't afford it they shouldn't charge? Strange world you live in, I guess they told me lies in business class at university.
On February 09 2012 17:53 bubblegumbo wrote: Monetizing the numerous big Western Tournaments would be a a mistake unless it is at a very reasonable cost. There are about 4-5 big tournaments such as the NASL, MLG, IPL, IEM already and if all of them were to charge $50 for every season, what is going to happen? Multiply that by 6 if we count the GSL and we don't even need to argue anymore.
I dont know what kind of rich family the target audience live in that would gladly pay more than $100 a year for watching SC2 and that's only assuming 1 season per year. We are talking about the budgets of normal fans of a niche industry aging from 14 to early 30s here. Finding more sponsors and buying more adverts while continuing the present model is the most reasonable way to maintain the popularity of this scene. Going PPV in the manner of other hardcore sports only makes sense when there is only one big tournament and league, and even then that would only work in NA, not in other countries that don't have that.
Are u kidding me? Did you listen his rant? How often do you go to cinema, drinking senseless, eating at MC if u ahve a full fridge? Dude those perspectices like yours are from guys who got illusioned by the "internet". The life is not for free. You normally CAN'T listen to music everywhere everyday everytime for free. You CAN'T watch movies and series for free everytime everywhere everyday. Did you even know you pay for TV?
Well, ever heard about Hartz4? As a german, im sure you know that term. What do you think, its just a german problem? I have to work hard for my money, others just DONT HAVE IT. I dont know what you do for a living, but i have rent to pay, a car to insure, a family to feed. Maybe if you are some decadent child with absolutely no relationship to money, yeah, then its easy to take 25 bucks from somewhere and dump it into crap. I cant (and wont).
And yeah i have to pay GEZ from my own money, not the money from my parents (or pirated). Even more reason.
Actually, its really ridiculous how many people dont have any sense for money. Mindboggling.
you say while arguing that you deserve to be entertained for free
If you actually read his previous posts and not just that one you would know he's not arguing that at all.
On February 09 2012 17:53 bubblegumbo wrote: Monetizing the numerous big Western Tournaments would be a a mistake unless it is at a very reasonable cost. There are about 4-5 big tournaments such as the NASL, MLG, IPL, IEM already and if all of them were to charge $50 for every season, what is going to happen? Multiply that by 6 if we count the GSL and we don't even need to argue anymore.
I dont know what kind of rich family the target audience live in that would gladly pay more than $100 a year for watching SC2 and that's only assuming 1 season per year. We are talking about the budgets of normal fans of a niche industry aging from 14 to early 30s here. Finding more sponsors and buying more adverts while continuing the present model is the most reasonable way to maintain the popularity of this scene. Going PPV in the manner of other hardcore sports only makes sense when there is only one big tournament and league, and even then that would only work in NA, not in other countries that don't have that.
Are u kidding me? Did you listen his rant? How often do you go to cinema, drinking senseless, eating at MC if u ahve a full fridge? Dude those perspectives like yours are from guys who got illusioned by the "internet". The life is not for free. You normally CAN'T listen to music everywhere everyday everytime for free. You CAN'T watch movies and series for free everytime everywhere everyday. Did you even know you pay for TV?
And I for me allready pay for MLG, HSC and GSL. The Tournies I watch regularly.
I listened to it and while I agree that it would be good if people spent more money to support the events they like, I either think he's joking or don't know what he's talking about with all the yelling about that organizations should charge away.
Or maybe he's right and everyone should start charging for stuff. Hell I should start charging for my 3k members forum, imagine all amazing things I could do if those damn blood sucking users just quit being cheap and paid me!
I don't know what gets into people sometimes. Would all e-sports businesses like to be self sufficient without depending on advertisers and such? Sure. Just don't tell me because it works in some other demographic with another product that would be applicable here. First of all, a large portion of the SC2 viewers is pretty young, too young to have a credit card at that. Does not make PPV easier. Then you got the phenomenon that you're dealing with nerds. These guys are used to getting everything for free through ad revenue (Google, Facebook, Youtube...). Try to sell these people something and they'll go "but you can put ads there and not charge". Which is exactly what's happening right now. Sure, you can charge for single events to test the waters (GOM did so with their cup) and experiment with giving exclusive content (Code A anyone?) but this bears tons of problems, too. GOM did right in offering differently priced packages so they could allow everybody to pay about as much as one can afford/is willing to pay. They went overboard with the number of options and their distinguishability and now we've got a good number of angy "light" subscribers.
Personally, I don't like the way it works right now, especially with GOM. When you charge good money and provide good production value then PLEASE deliver that in an appropriate fashion. I'm talking 1080p good quality sound for paying users. Which is what EVERY tournament willing to charge should do btw. When you pay for something you don't want compromise. Capturing and encoding in 1080p is not that big of a deal, capture cards are a one time investment and even standard CPUs can handle encoding this stuff. If you don't have the bandwidth, talk to your provider, it's not a billion dollars. Broadcasting crappy streams just looks cheap. There's a billion things we have to fix first before you can even begin thinking about charging PPV.
In addition to all this we also have tons of examples of sports that don't get PPV-marketed and do very well even in a niche. Handball (at least around here) is on purely ad supported free TV. So is volleyball. Could you charge PPV for a small audience? Sure but nobody except that audience would know about the sport's professional scene. This way whole countries get involved in a handball world cup even though usually only very few watch it the rest of the year.
E-sports could be very comparable to the formula 1 though once game companies finally get this straight. In the beginning, the formula didn't make a profit, it was simply there to show off the car manufacturers skills. Same thing happened to LoL mind you, without Riot pumping in a million dollars in prize money, where would it be e-sports wise? There's surely an interest in that happening from Blizzard's side, too. It's just that Kotick doesn't approve it because it's not part of his personal view of the world. Remember that SC2 is a product which in itself can use the marketing.
I could go on and on about how you have to know your audience and see the strategic vision of e-sports growing before you can monetize it like a cash cow but I doubt anyone in that field has the patience to see something in an investment state too long. Surely the short lifespan of most games doesn't help this, mind you. I'll leave it at that but this man needs to get together with other people, especially high league ops, before he can talk about monetarization like that.
On February 09 2012 16:32 m4inbrain wrote: Just thought a bit about it.. Its actually kinda stupid to say "well, ad-revenue isnt enough anymore - lets charge viewers". If you have strictly a "no pay, no view"-restriction, you will lose more than 50% of the viewership. More likely more than that. So the ad-revenue will go down pretty harsh.
Theres actually no base at all at the moment to charge like 20$ for a MLG. If there is a big game which becomes famous - well, ill watch it later as VOD. Even if they charge for the VODs, some guy from somewhere will share the VOD with me. If there is not, well.. Ill watch another tournament which charges less/offers more.
On our "mainstreet" we have, i think, 6 different hardware-stores. Private, not like DELL or something. 3 of them closed recently, because they tried to price their stuff lower than the other stores and went into bankrupcy (spelled wrong i think). There wouldnt be "awesome esport", there would be "mlg vs ign vs dh vs etc", all of them would try to steal viewers from another tournament. Again: the base is not big enough for that.
First of all, your 50% is a totally made up statistic. If you have a source I would love to read it, but otherwise where do you get that number? It could be 90% or it could be 10%. 50% is completely random.
As for your hardware example, that is a bad example. There are so many places to go buy hardware from and you will be buying the same hardware. If I want to watch DRG vs MMA in an epic best of 7 then I have to pay for the Blizzard Cup. I can't watch DRG vs MMA at some MLG for free because there is no guarantee that I will get that same epic best of 7. It's not comparable. What might happen is I go to watch LoL or Dota instead of SC2 (if you're into that; if all you watch is SC then it won't matter).
Its actually no statistic at all (but feel free to start a poll). But a reasonable guess. Watch streamchats, forums etc - you will get the reason.
And of course its comparable. How do you know that your MMA vs DRG will be epic? Could be DRG dronerushing MMA. And apart from that: just look around you. Every single game/sport that has "business" involved is dominated by ONE big league/tournament. Why is that? Someone in this thread actually had the right idea, just think about world of warcraft. How many p2p-MMOs do you see on the market, and better: how do they compare to WoW in terms of subscriptions? Yeah. You guessed right, the only one noteworthy is SWTOR. And well, i just cancelled by sub after the first month, and so did many others.
You cant(!) have 4 big leagues next to each other. That doesnt work. Because business is also about expanding. If you want to expand, you need to kill the other leagues, because no one would actually pay 25$ a month to 4 different leagues. That just wont happen.
think ufc is the only mma promoter? think it was always the biggest? it became dominate by producing a better product than its competitors, which got driven out cuz they couldnt keep up. that caused all the best fighters to go to ufc and gave them more money and to host bigger, more frequent events.
As i said, i dont even know what MMA is (or UFC for that matter), or how their organization works. But then again, who is the biggest "promoter" (well, the biggest League or whatever its called in wrestling) at the moment?
there are too many tournaments.
I agree on that. But thats not part of the discussion, its about fees, or did i get something wrong?
you're always going to have free content in user streams and smaller online tournaments. people who are into computer games, who can afford to spend 60$ on sc2, are not THAT stressed for money. they can afford to pay for a product that is as entertaining and high quality as what mlg and ipl have put out, and given that more stable, profitable business model that product will only get better.
You know, i paid 55€ for SC2. Thats 73$. And i already said, im willing to pay for good quality (and with that i dont mean the streamresolution). But, and thats just a fact (and this time it is, you can just watch it in 1h) : GSL has by far the highest quality of them all. So how do you justify charging the same prices with worse production? The content is actually more or less the same. Its Starcraft 2. Sure, players of high calibre are prone to produce more thrilling games, but then again, you have really good games from other players as well, like darkforce or violet.
Thats what im talking about. I gladly pay for IGN, if they get their production up to par with GSL (frankly, i dont like GSL at all). But at the moment? Nah. Why should i, as long as they are worse than GSL (worse in case of prod etc), wheres the reason?
On February 09 2012 17:53 bubblegumbo wrote: Monetizing the numerous big Western Tournaments would be a a mistake unless it is at a very reasonable cost. There are about 4-5 big tournaments such as the NASL, MLG, IPL, IEM already and if all of them were to charge $50 for every season, what is going to happen? Multiply that by 6 if we count the GSL and we don't even need to argue anymore.
I dont know what kind of rich family the target audience live in that would gladly pay more than $100 a year for watching SC2 and that's only assuming 1 season per year. We are talking about the budgets of normal fans of a niche industry aging from 14 to early 30s here. Finding more sponsors and buying more adverts while continuing the present model is the most reasonable way to maintain the popularity of this scene. Going PPV in the manner of other hardcore sports only makes sense when there is only one big tournament and league, and even then that would only work in NA, not in other countries that don't have that.
Are u kidding me? Did you listen his rant? How often do you go to cinema, drinking senseless, eating at MC if u ahve a full fridge? Dude those perspectices like yours are from guys who got illusioned by the "internet". The life is not for free. You normally CAN'T listen to music everywhere everyday everytime for free. You CAN'T watch movies and series for free everytime everywhere everyday. Did you even know you pay for TV?
Well, ever heard about Hartz4? As a german, im sure you know that term. What do you think, its just a german problem? I have to work hard for my money, others just DONT HAVE IT. I dont know what you do for a living, but i have rent to pay, a car to insure, a family to feed. Maybe if you are some decadent child with absolutely no relationship to money, yeah, then its easy to take 25 bucks from somewhere and dump it into crap. I cant (and wont).
And yeah i have to pay GEZ from my own money, not the money from my parents (or pirated). Even more reason.
Actually, its really ridiculous how many people dont have any sense for money. Mindboggling.
you say while arguing that you deserve to be entertained for free
You should work on your readcompetence, i said already like 5 times that im willing to pay, if the quality is good enough.
On February 09 2012 18:07 Manimal_pro wrote: i haven't paid for any stream and will not ever pay. Not because i don't have the money, but i don't find it that important to me. For example GSL is on during work hours and i can't watch the free stream. So, i never watch GSL.
And the idea that starcraft 2 can be compared to UFC or WWE to request a PPV is atrocious. There are countless tourneys and streams in SC2. How may UFCs are there in the world. Only 1. You can ask for PPV when you have exclusivity, but right now sc2 events do not have it. Players can be seen at multiple tourneys and the production value is not worth spending money on it.
Basically this (but i can imagine me paying for something in the future ). I can't watch GSL live so i don't watch it at all. If i could watch it live, i would atually even pay... But i don't pay "just" for Vods when the only thing i can grab live in a whole season are the finals (if i'm at home).
BTW: I have to pay for TV/Radio/PC (basically taxes)... That makes it technically "not free" but i would have to pay this anyway (or not use a TV, Radio, PC, any Multimedia/Internet-device... So what do i get from it? TONS of diffrent sports (Formula 1, Moto GP; Football, Tennis, Skiing, Snowboarding... + TONS of other sports on private, add supported, TV.
So... Why should i suddenly have to pay to wach SC2? PPV is not really THAT common here and if you decide to get it, you get LOADS of content for it... Not just 1 event.
On February 09 2012 17:53 bubblegumbo wrote: Monetizing the numerous big Western Tournaments would be a a mistake unless it is at a very reasonable cost. There are about 4-5 big tournaments such as the NASL, MLG, IPL, IEM already and if all of them were to charge $50 for every season, what is going to happen? Multiply that by 6 if we count the GSL and we don't even need to argue anymore.
I dont know what kind of rich family the target audience live in that would gladly pay more than $100 a year for watching SC2 and that's only assuming 1 season per year. We are talking about the budgets of normal fans of a niche industry aging from 14 to early 30s here. Finding more sponsors and buying more adverts while continuing the present model is the most reasonable way to maintain the popularity of this scene. Going PPV in the manner of other hardcore sports only makes sense when there is only one big tournament and league, and even then that would only work in NA, not in other countries that don't have that.
Are u kidding me? Did you listen his rant? How often do you go to cinema, drinking senseless, eating at MC if u ahve a full fridge? Dude those perspectives like yours are from guys who got illusioned by the "internet". The life is not for free. You normally CAN'T listen to music everywhere everyday everytime for free. You CAN'T watch movies and series for free everytime everywhere everyday. Did you even know you pay for TV?
And I for me allready pay for MLG, HSC and GSL. The Tournies I watch regularly.
I listened to it and while I agree that it would be good if people spent more money to support the events they like, I either think he's joking or don't know what he's talking about with all the yelling about that organizations should charge away.
Or maybe he's right and everyone should start charging for stuff. Hell I should start charging for my 3k members forum, imagine all amazing things I could do if those damn blood sucking users just quit being cheap and paid me!
Yea because hosting forums is a new economy ... oh wait. And I'm totally talking about charging everyone for everything ... just shows you didn't get the topic dude. Thats not how discussions work to interpret random things into it.
On February 09 2012 17:53 bubblegumbo wrote: Monetizing the numerous big Western Tournaments would be a a mistake unless it is at a very reasonable cost. There are about 4-5 big tournaments such as the NASL, MLG, IPL, IEM already and if all of them were to charge $50 for every season, what is going to happen? Multiply that by 6 if we count the GSL and we don't even need to argue anymore.
I dont know what kind of rich family the target audience live in that would gladly pay more than $100 a year for watching SC2 and that's only assuming 1 season per year. We are talking about the budgets of normal fans of a niche industry aging from 14 to early 30s here. Finding more sponsors and buying more adverts while continuing the present model is the most reasonable way to maintain the popularity of this scene. Going PPV in the manner of other hardcore sports only makes sense when there is only one big tournament and league, and even then that would only work in NA, not in other countries that don't have that.
Are u kidding me? Did you listen his rant? How often do you go to cinema, drinking senseless, eating at MC if u ahve a full fridge? Dude those perspectives like yours are from guys who got illusioned by the "internet". The life is not for free. You normally CAN'T listen to music everywhere everyday everytime for free. You CAN'T watch movies and series for free everytime everywhere everyday. Did you even know you pay for TV?
And I for me allready pay for MLG, HSC and GSL. The Tournies I watch regularly.
And that attitude is the internet's great contribution to humanity.
Are we talking about the same internet yea? I grew up with it. I know the time where websites were build static. Did it change? For sure. Did new business models grew out of it? Hell yea. Are they all for free? Erm, no. NEW business CAN'T grew and sustain itself WITHOUT a proper business modell. Now you say: but we have streams and stuff and derp. Sure we do, and sure it works for facebook perfectly. But does FB need to fly guys around the world, setup big stages and things in venues? Go all out in production and sustaining that production with high quality infrastructre? No.
Hi, I'm an adult male 21 years old and I like watching competitive SC2. I'm from America, but when I watch I want to see the best play possible, regardless of if it requires me to wake up at 3am to do so. I can spend a couple hours each day watching SC2, so for that I'm willing to pay up to ~$250 a year for quality streams, provided the players playing are the best caliber and there's some production quality to it.
Given these criteria, I really think the only two/three I'd pay for is GSL, MLG, and Dreamhack. Maybe throw in HSC simply because of the niche it has that absolutely no other tournament can boast. Of COURSE I want to see grillmaster White-ra.
IPL, IEM, NASL and the like are still interesting to watch, and I do, but being perfectly honest if I was forced to pay to watch them, I never would. They obviously still boast championship winning caliber players, and not that the production is that bad, but it doesn't hold a candle to the aforementioned that I would pay to watch. There's such a saturation of content that I'm allowed to be very choosy, and if the "second rate" tournaments and team leagues were all PPV I couldn't care less to watch them, until their champions played at the ones I was watching.
I'm sure there's many other opinions to this, and to be clear I'm not hating on the non GSLs of the SC2 community, and even love grass roots events, but I would have zero qualms about not paying to watch inferior quality tournaments, as long as I had enough SC2 to keep me abated. And even if there were no on-going tournaments for awhile, it's not like Day9's dailies are stale if you queue up a bunch of archived videos, nor is it boring to watch my favorite players first person stream for awhile.
I would prefer less tournaments but far more better organized with the viewing experience enhanced and polished. A blizzcon takes a year to properly digest for example.
Putting a gaming tourney on the same platform as a UFC is a hell of a stretch. First off the UFC is the premier league, they're on top of the industry, it's not just another MMA league, it's THE MMA league. They absorb most of the best fighters around to try and keep themselves as the pinnacle (and also get rid of competitors). Currently for SC2 you have dozens of tourneys, if you're going to start charging like a UFC all you're doing is cannibalizing the scene while its in its infancy, or killing your organization.
The professional fighting community also has a regulatory body overseeing everything. You have rules set up and enforced by both the UFC itself as well as the state it's being held in (Nevada State Athletic Commission for instance). The rules are known and followed or penalties are levied. Currently for SC2 there are the rules of a given tourney and even those don't seem to be followed 90% of the time. So with the UFC you have these known rules across the board, trying to make each fight a level playing field with state rules being followed between leagues (UFC, strikeforce, whatever).
UFC also provides some great production value. I think the SC2 leagues have been working to improve this some but it's about more than a flashy bump graphic. I think MLG does a really good job on the commentating side of things. Don't see how anyone could really argue they have bad commentators with the likes of Tasteless, artosis, day9, itmejp, djwheat, husky, etc. You might prefer one over another but they have the best in the business. But they have these massively long pauses between rounds sometimes. That simply cannot happen if you charge people. "Thanks for the money, enjoy staring at this crowd for 30 minutes." I understand that sort of the nature of the beast running a huge tourney with dynamic game lengths and all that but it does hurt the production quality. Some B roll is definitely needed to fill up time, and not the same NOS commercial or Dr. Pepper gamer house makeover thing.
Look at how the UFC does things if you want to even dream of charging like them. Fight 1 ends in a 45 second KO. Well, better tell the next set of fighters its go time. Interview the winner, show tape of the 2 fighters coming out talking about the fight, show them walking in, tale of the tape, alright lets rock. The advantage hey have is that a fighter only fights once a day so it's not like "HuK, hurry up and win and get your ass to the blue stream so we can go!" Again, its sort of the tricky nature of the beast. I would think logistically there has gotta be a way to smooth those sorts of things out to some degree. There's gotta be a way to be respectful of the players, give them a rolling lunch hour or something while keeping things running smoothly.
There are plenty of other things that set a PPV production like the UFC apart form a gaming tourney. I think right now a tourney like MLG has to think be thinking of a way to make a more profitable business model while fully understanding where the scene is right now and where they are in the scheme of things. It's far smarter to let things grow more before you try and drain money out of it. When the time does come that you can implement your business model and actually make things legit you better have your act together. It needs to be respectful of players while still having very concrete, enforced rules. It needs to have seamless, high quality production. Needs to help grow the esports base and legitimize it not be a money grab. Also, the first company to do it needs to have balls of steel.
I think the problem is that (as far as we can tell from the rumored numbers) top players and casters are getting too much of the pie before the pie is even baked, based on some hope/belief/projection that it will be this year or the next or whatever. That is a very risky model, but with some luck it will all still work out.
So, would I want to pay "a lot" of money (say 20-30$) to watch a weekend tournament? Only if I'd know that this money was necessary to keep things healthy and stable, but definitely not if it's to fill pockets of people who are hoping to suck this game dry and move on to the next (and I'm not talking about anyone in particular now, neither organization nor player/caster, and especially not about MLG even though it might sound like it).
Btw, since the UFC comparison was brought up (although it's pretty pointless), fighters there made peanuts until the whole thing exploded, and even now I'd say only the top10 fighters in each division (or most of them) are making more money than needed to make ends meet, i.e. six figures or more. Yes, their top fighters make millions each year, but the company makes millions pretty much every other week.
On February 09 2012 17:53 bubblegumbo wrote: Monetizing the numerous big Western Tournaments would be a a mistake unless it is at a very reasonable cost. There are about 4-5 big tournaments such as the NASL, MLG, IPL, IEM already and if all of them were to charge $50 for every season, what is going to happen? Multiply that by 6 if we count the GSL and we don't even need to argue anymore.
I dont know what kind of rich family the target audience live in that would gladly pay more than $100 a year for watching SC2 and that's only assuming 1 season per year. We are talking about the budgets of normal fans of a niche industry aging from 14 to early 30s here. Finding more sponsors and buying more adverts while continuing the present model is the most reasonable way to maintain the popularity of this scene. Going PPV in the manner of other hardcore sports only makes sense when there is only one big tournament and league, and even then that would only work in NA, not in other countries that don't have that.
Are u kidding me? Did you listen his rant? How often do you go to cinema, drinking senseless, eating at MC if u ahve a full fridge? Dude those perspectives like yours are from guys who got illusioned by the "internet". The life is not for free. You normally CAN'T listen to music everywhere everyday everytime for free. You CAN'T watch movies and series for free everytime everywhere everyday. Did you even know you pay for TV?
And I for me allready pay for MLG, HSC and GSL. The Tournies I watch regularly.
I listened to it and while I agree that it would be good if people spent more money to support the events they like, I either think he's joking or don't know what he's talking about with all the yelling about that organizations should charge away.
Or maybe he's right and everyone should start charging for stuff. Hell I should start charging for my 3k members forum, imagine all amazing things I could do if those damn blood sucking users just quit being cheap and paid me!
Yea because hosting forums is a new economy ... oh wait. And I'm totally talking about charging everyone for everything ... just shows you didn't get the topic dude. Thats not how discussions work to interpret random things into it.
I don't think you understand. Why couldn't my forums be a new economy? According to his arguments I should be able to make a lot of money on it.
And that attitude is the internet's great contribution to humanity.
Are we talking about the same internet yea? I grew up with it. I know the time where websites were build static. Did it change? For sure. Did new business models grew out of it? Hell yea. Are they all for free? Erm, no. NEW business CAN'T grew and sustain itself WITHOUT a proper business modell. Now you say: but we have streams and stuff and derp. Sure we do, and sure it works for facebook perfectly. But does FB need to fly guys around the world, setup big stages and things in venues? Go all out in production and sustaining that production with high quality infrastructre? No.
I have no idea what you are trying to say, or what you think you are responding to. My little contribution was the idea that the attitude that all information and ideas ought to be easily and free accessible, including those currently "protected" by modern copyright law, is a very Good Thing.
On February 09 2012 15:20 Dromar wrote: Perhaps some of the businesses need to drown in order to raise the demand for the more successful business models?
Just a thought.
Interesting idea...
PPV? No friggin' way. GTFO. Why does everyone want to compare E-Sports to the UFC? NO THANK YOU. I would much rather see it follow in the footsteps of MLB or the NFL.
I totally agree. I'd pay for MLG/IPL/WCG and even Twitch or something. Something reasonable like maybe 20$ for an entire weekend of MLG coverage, HELLLL YEAHHH! 5 or 10$ a month to be able to view all the streams on Twitch (maybe with no ads) yeah I'd pay for that.
And that attitude is the internet's great contribution to humanity.
Are we talking about the same internet yea? I grew up with it. I know the time where websites were build static. Did it change? For sure. Did new business models grew out of it? Hell yea. Are they all for free? Erm, no. NEW business CAN'T grew and sustain itself WITHOUT a proper business modell. Now you say: but we have streams and stuff and derp. Sure we do, and sure it works for facebook perfectly. But does FB need to fly guys around the world, setup big stages and things in venues? Go all out in production and sustaining that production with high quality infrastructre? No.
I have no idea what you are trying to say, or what you think you are responding to. My little contribution was the idea that the attitude that all information and ideas ought to be easily and free accessible, including those currently "protected" by modern copyright law, is a very Good Thing.
Im sorry if I have misunderstood something. It felt like a "counter" argument. And I don't mean copy rights. I think we agree that stuff that is produced needs to get paid for. And to argue you don't want to buy a game would be stupid. So I was depressed when steam came out because my loved WON would go down. But what grew out of steam is just awesome!
On February 09 2012 17:53 bubblegumbo wrote: Monetizing the numerous big Western Tournaments would be a a mistake unless it is at a very reasonable cost. There are about 4-5 big tournaments such as the NASL, MLG, IPL, IEM already and if all of them were to charge $50 for every season, what is going to happen? Multiply that by 6 if we count the GSL and we don't even need to argue anymore.
I dont know what kind of rich family the target audience live in that would gladly pay more than $100 a year for watching SC2 and that's only assuming 1 season per year. We are talking about the budgets of normal fans of a niche industry aging from 14 to early 30s here. Finding more sponsors and buying more adverts while continuing the present model is the most reasonable way to maintain the popularity of this scene. Going PPV in the manner of other hardcore sports only makes sense when there is only one big tournament and league, and even then that would only work in NA, not in other countries that don't have that.
Are u kidding me? Did you listen his rant? How often do you go to cinema, drinking senseless, eating at MC if u ahve a full fridge? Dude those perspectives like yours are from guys who got illusioned by the "internet". The life is not for free. You normally CAN'T listen to music everywhere everyday everytime for free. You CAN'T watch movies and series for free everytime everywhere everyday. Did you even know you pay for TV?
And I for me allready pay for MLG, HSC and GSL. The Tournies I watch regularly.
I listened to it and while I agree that it would be good if people spent more money to support the events they like, I either think he's joking or don't know what he's talking about with all the yelling about that organizations should charge away.
Or maybe he's right and everyone should start charging for stuff. Hell I should start charging for my 3k members forum, imagine all amazing things I could do if those damn blood sucking users just quit being cheap and paid me!
Yea because hosting forums is a new economy ... oh wait. And I'm totally talking about charging everyone for everything ... just shows you didn't get the topic dude. Thats not how discussions work to interpret random things into it.
I don't think you understand. Why couldn't my forums be a new economy? According to his arguments I should be able to make a lot of money on it.
Hosting forums is allready a part of a big economy. Where the forum itself doesnt monteize. It is a feature often used for monetized services. And btw did you script your forum yourself or using unsave bboard? Because good forums cost money And you still miss the whole point: i was never talking about when I make a website I should get money for views. We are talking about an economy which pays their players (inc. pricemoney) over 1kk$, who flew several humans several times trough the whole world, who have production equipment equivelant to "porfessional" TV prodcutions. Maybe listen to Jerith again and in particular to what he says about console gamers and supporting/buying sc2 stuff, then you maybe see that you missinterpreted alot.
On February 09 2012 17:19 FeiLing wrote: Blizzard does not allow their games to be broadcasted/streamed if the only way to view it is by subscribing. There always has to be a free stream (and only higher video quality for e.g, may be charged). Just so you know, as I think some people in this thread are actually not talking about video qualities when they talk of a high quality production - they idea rather is that events like MLG etc shouldn't have a free stream and thereby be unable to be viewer without payment (which as I said is not allowed by blizzard).
Hmm the first arena of legends required a ticket to watch at all though. I wonder if that doesn't count because it was a special event or because Gom has a special deal with Blizzard.
If that's really the case then I don't see a huge problem charging for HD, there will always be a lq stream available for the people who want or need it and HD for those willing to pay for it.
That said I know perfectly well I could not afford to pay for HD for every tournament I want to watch. During most of last year there were a lot of really good tournaments with high caliber players crammed togeather one weekend after the next and sometimes on weekdays. October alone had IPL3, 2 IEMs, MLG orlando, ESWC and blizzcon. I love sc2 but at a hypothetical $25 a pop per tournament for HD for that'd be $150 and unsustainable for most people since every month has 2-3 really good tournaments . I can put money aside for a luxury but not that much that often.
The only brightside I see to that is that tournaments would honestly have to compete with each other for people's money. They'd need to make and maintain a good reputation of being worth the money spent vs all thier competitors.
In my opinion paying for a stream is the completly false way. I will NEVER pay to watch stuff on TV or streams on the internet. IPL3 is the way to go if you ask me, free 1080p streams and advertisment on it, but it's impossible for me to understand why you should ever pay for watching stuff if there is the possibilty of advertisment i even cant understand why gomtv is forcing you into creating a account for watching the free stream. In my opinion you are HURTING e-sport if you pay for watching starcraft because it creates a big hurdle for tryng out starcraft for beginners and also you dont have to pay TV why should anyone pay on the intenet there most of the stuff is free ?
On February 09 2012 18:21 budar wrote:Btw, since the UFC comparison was brought up (although it's pretty pointless), fighters there made peanuts until the whole thing exploded, and even now I'd say only the top10 fighters in each division (or most of them) are making more money than needed to make ends meet, i.e. six figures or more. Yes, their top fighters make millions each year, but the company makes millions pretty much every other week.
I agree that the UFC has sort of been known for screwing fighters money wise. A "players" union of sorts would go a long way there. But since the UFC is the only game in town really that's not going to happen. The same sort of union would help make sure esports players don't get screwed but as has been discussed other places. It would take a hell of an initiative and I don't think we're quite at the need for one yet. If it keeps growing, eventually one would be wise though.
Right now people aren't making money. Hosting tournaments is expensive, and ad revs from the streaming platforms seldom cover just the prize pools. The only way these organizers stay in business right now is with investor/sponsor money.
I've spoken with many of these sponsors, and I've asked them the very straight question: "How the hell do you make any money in this business?", and the answer is always the same: "We don't."
The big, powerhouse sponsors - the multi-billion dollar corporations that have infinite money to throw around, continue to invest in e-sports, not for profit, but to modernize their image, and to appear "cool" in today's market. True story.
The smaller/mid-range sponsors - industry specific tech companies, peripheral manufacturers, basically companies that cater to a niche market already, are definitely trying to carve out a piece of what they perceive as a growing market, but think about how many mouse pads have to be sold to run a tournament? How many graphics cards, or notebooks have to be bought to cover JUST the prize pools?
There is definitely a day of reckoning on the horizon. A lot of people jumped into the game in hopes of cashing in on e-sports, but it's excruciatingly difficult to make money in this business.
People keep citing the GSL as the premiere league, and the only one worth paying for, but the cold truth is that they too are walking a very thin line in terms of their sustainability.
Some of these tournament organizers are eventually going to have to tap out, or drastically scale back what they've been doing. For events to continue to grow, event organizers will have to figure out a way to make money. Even if it is purely for love of the game, you can't keep playing if you can't stop bleeding cash.
PPV models are something industry people are looking at because it HAS worked in the past. It's what got UFC from grassroots to the big stage. But there were more factors in UFC rising to the level it has than just a functional PPV platform.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that you can't charge people to watch Starcraft. There's just too much free Starcraft available. What you can do is charge people to participate in chat, to access VODs, and to avoid seeing ads.
But that change alone would not make running major tournaments profitable. For that to happen, the people at the top of the industry, Sundance, David Ting, Carmac, Robert Ohlen, Russ, have got to figure out ways to sell their product to a small, niche market, without that market turning on them.
It's a very difficult problem to solve, and the answer may very well be to scale back and hold smaller events, but really, nobody wants that.
We all want bigger, better, faster, and stronger, and in the world of business, the first guy to figure out how to deliver that, while still making money, is going to be the one that survives.
I think such a model should be pursued, however I dont think its something that should be done right now. GSL can do it because they always sort of have, and thats pretty standard for them so far. Doing it in the US and EU right now might hurt the community more then it benefits from it right now.
Hold of the PPV idea for another year or two and we can see by then if were ready for it. Because I think it needs to happen in order to pay for events and such. Something like:
1. Make sure we have a large enough community that watch continuesly. 2. Slide in PPV 3. Do events more often then now.
However we have a hard market seeing as alot of the viewers I can imagine are below 18 years of age = not alot of money to "contribute". If we had as large of a market we have now that are above then I'd say were ready.
Well, either some kind of monetisation have to happen for the current big tournament or they will have to scale back their tournament expenses. Somehow i feel we are currently in some sort of e sports bubble that is going to burst unless we find a way to solve the realities on the ground.
at the end of the day the bills need to be paid, the company that navigates the best route will be the one that survives this is the free market the strong survive and the weak die. The extent to which starcraft can proceed as a source of entertainment will be determined by a number of factors (which is beyond the scope of this post). However in the free market (which starcraft exists in due to the total lack of government support and rich private benafactors) those that are viable will surive those that dont will die. (e.g. MBC dies OGN grows as audience shifts over to main source of starcraft information).
Well, if someone would sell me a "premier ticket" to for instance to IEM, MLG and GSL.
With: - A single site to access vods (made available < 24 hours after an event), streams, and (at least some) replays across tournaments. - HD streams with 99% flawless streaming. - Automatic compensation if the stream or site fails (relative to the amount of downtime). At least in situations where it should be obvious that I am trying to watch an event that is struggling. - Event reminders and other "nice to have" things.
$20 or $25 price tag for a single streamed event is unreal. No one in their right mind is going to pay that. Eurosport costs like $39 for a whole year, to give you a little perspective. A whole year of everything you can think of. You want to charge for your stream? Make the pricing competetive.
Shit, forget the pricing, make the content competetive. MLG does a good job of that, with the roaming interview crew on the floor and whatnot. However, my opinion is that cramming everything in a single weekend hurts them a bit. If a game overlaps with my primary game interest that I came to watch the stream, I'm never going to check out the other one. True, there might not be a lot of viewers crossing over, but it might be worth a shot. Or not, I don't really know MLG's operating numbers. But I feel like that's another topic altogether.
I mean it's easy to call people fat asses and say shit like "Fuck Brood War". But you gotta realise that the kind of money you're asking for is an amount that only the hardcore supports are willing to pay. Sure, it might stave off your league or team or whatever disbanding for a couple of years. If you want to grow the industry, however, you have to look around a bit. See what you're competing with. Work from there. Get new people interested. New people probably won't get interested if they have to pay four times what they pay for one year of Eurosport for like 6 weekends of games. That's a huge part of the problem. Stuff right now is either free or costs too much. You have to find the middle ground. You got to be able to interest new face in paying for your product, or you drown. Maybe very slowly, but you do.
And for fuck's sake, don't get rid of the floor admission fees. Every fucking team in pretty much anything has admission fees to their stadiums, so why shouldn't MLG have one? True, MLG is not a team, but the principle is the same, the organisation that provides the venue pockets the money from the tickets. Plus you can charge more for the tickets - I feel that the current MLG price is adequate. For example, Manchester United's tickets for the league this year for their best seats work out at about $127. MLG (assuming 6 events per year) costs $150, but MLG has a varied program - i.e. it's not only Starcraft 2 - which helps their pricing be competetive in this case.
Lastly, to touch on the merchandise point. There's nothing much to say, since I agree with the guy for once. I did buy merchandise for the team that I support, so that's that. It's a great way to support a team/organisation etc. Although, I feel that is something that only the more hardcore supporters would do. Still, in order to get more people that are willing to pay for shirts, you got to expand the fanbase.
On February 09 2012 19:30 MrBitter wrote: From my slightly-insiders point of view:
Right now people aren't making money. Hosting tournaments is expensive, and ad revs from the streaming platforms seldom cover just the prize pools. The only way these organizers stay in business right now is with investor/sponsor money.
I've spoken with many of these sponsors, and I've asked them the very straight question: "How the hell do you make any money in this business?", and the answer is always the same: "We don't."
The big, powerhouse sponsors - the multi-billion dollar corporations that have infinite money to throw around, continue to invest in e-sports, not for profit, but to modernize their image, and to appear "cool" in today's market. True story.
The smaller/mid-range sponsors - industry specific tech companies, peripheral manufacturers, basically companies that cater to a niche market already, are definitely trying to carve out a piece of what they perceive as a growing market, but think about how many mouse pads have to be sold to run a tournament? How many graphics cards, or notebooks have to be bought to cover JUST the prize pools?
There is definitely a day of reckoning on the horizon. A lot of people jumped into the game in hopes of cashing in on e-sports, but it's excruciatingly difficult to make money in this business.
People keep citing the GSL as the premiere league, and the only one worth paying for, but the cold truth is that they too are walking a very thin line in terms of their sustainability.
Some of these tournament organizers are eventually going to have to tap out, or drastically scale back what they've been doing. For events to continue to grow, event organizers will have to figure out a way to make money. Even if it is purely for love of the game, you can't keep playing if you can't stop bleeding cash.
PPV models are something industry people are looking at because it HAS worked in the past. It's what got UFC from grassroots to the big stage. But there were more factors in UFC rising to the level it has than just a functional PPV platform.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that you can't charge people to watch Starcraft. There's just too much free Starcraft available. What you can do is charge people to participate in chat, to access VODs, and to avoid seeing ads.
But that change alone would not make running major tournaments profitable. For that to happen, the people at the top of the industry, Sundance, David Ting, Carmac, Robert Ohlen, Russ, have got to figure out ways to sell their product to a small, niche market, without that market turning on them.
It's a very difficult problem to solve, and the answer may very well be to scale back and hold smaller events, but really, nobody wants that.
We all want bigger, better, faster, and stronger, and in the world of business, the first guy to figure out how to deliver that, while still making money, is going to be the one that survives.
On February 09 2012 21:31 Nikon wrote: $20 or $25 price tag for a single streamed event is unreal. No one in their right mind is going to pay that. Eurosport costs like $39 for a whole year, to give you a little perspective. A whole year of everything you can think of. You want to charge for your stream? Make the pricing competetive.
Shit, forget the pricing, make the content competetive. MLG does a good job of that, with the roaming interview crew on the floor and whatnot. However, my opinion is that cramming everything in a single weekend hurts them a bit. If a game overlaps with my primary game interest that I came to watch the stream, I'm never going to check out the other one. True, there might not be a lot of viewers crossing over, but it might be worth a shot. Or not, I don't really know MLG's operating numbers. But I feel like that's another topic altogether.
I mean it's easy to call people fat asses and say shit like "Fuck Brood War". But you gotta realise that the kind of money you're asking for is an amount that only the hardcore supports are willing to pay. Sure, it might stave off your league or team or whatever disbanding for a couple of years. If you want to grow the industry, however, you have to look around a bit. See what you're competing with. Work from there. Get new people interested. New people probably won't get interested if they have to pay four times what they pay for one year of Eurosport for like 6 weekends of games. That's a huge part of the problem. Stuff right now is either free or costs too much. You have to find the middle ground. You got to be able to interest new face in paying for your product, or you drown. Maybe very slowly, but you do.
And for fuck's sake, don't get rid of the floor admission fees. Every fucking team in pretty much anything has admission fees to their stadiums, so why shouldn't MLG have one? True, MLG is not a team, but the principle is the same, the organisation that provides the venue pockets the money from the tickets. Plus you can charge more for the tickets - I feel that the current MLG price is adequate. For example, Manchester United's tickets for the whole year for their best seats work out at about $127. MLG (assuming 6 events per year) costs $150, but MLG has a varied program - i.e. it's not only Starcraft 2 - which helps their pricing be competetive in this case.
Lastly, to touch on the merchandise point. There's nothing much to say, since I agree with the guy for once. I did buy merchandise for the team that I support, so that's that. It's a great way to support a team/organisation etc. Although, I feel that is something that only the more hardcore supporters would do. Still, in order to get more people that are willing to pay for shirts, you got to expand the fanbase.
By that dudes logic Youtube should ask us money for the content our fat asses get for free and the amazing services they offer. But the world is not so black or white as he makes it look.
And he makes a false assumption, that many companies make regarding piracy for instance:
20000 free stream viewers = 20000 x 20$ if streams start charging money.
PPV will never work, look at NASL. I mean it wasnt PPV but the amount of people that paid for premium was a joke number compared to the people who sat and watched the 480p
Personally I think there needs to be less tournaments. We're basically glutted right now in terms of too much to watch for the number of spectators there are. I try to watch as much as poss and I can only watch less than 10%. Of course none of them are going to make money if they're all cannibalizing each other like this. In the end some of them are going to have to face reality and drop out for the good of the scene as a whole while the others need to scale back a bit.
GSL has too many games now and could cut down. NASL should have disappeared a long time ago. IPL doesn't need to have as many games as it does either. MLG and Dreamhack are about right in terms of frequency and I don't want to see them expand any further.
I haven's read every post, so it might already have been said :
IMO, advertising is the way to go. Look at Homestory Cup, these guys advertise about the gear they are using at the competition, between casts. It's a good way, and unlike other advertisment this one is useful for us gamers, as we can see what is available on the market.
90% of the starcraft I watch I don't pay for and wouldn't pay for. There are a ton of tournaments out there and ultimately the quality of the players is the most important thing for me, so if mlg or any other organization tried to charge money I would just watch my favorites elsewhere.
A lot of the problem is also exclusivity. You say WWE or UFC, but If I want to watch Anderson Silva fight... I HAVE TO watch UFC. If I miss DRG V MVP.. no biggie, they'll be playing again in a different tournament in a weeks time.
This is where the SC1 scene's Pro-League and exclusivity brought by Kespa would work in a monetising sense. You want to watch the best players? then you need to pay to see them. That works slightly with GSL, but even then a lot of the GSL players go to foreign tournaments to play because its offers them good money for their investment (mercenary if you will) because their own scene doesn't offer enough money to keep them there.
There needs to be a scene shift if anyone wants this to happen. Probably a governing body to sort through it. Otherwise, you'll get every mickey mouse tournament trying to charge £20 to watch and killing each other in the process, leaving nothing for anyone. Maybe if GSL (korea) Dreamhack (europe) and MLG (usa) formed a partnership where they signed players to contracts (teams?) and ran it as a premier league style format. With a champions league between the regions every so often, it'd work. oo many tournaments, not enough exclusivity, too much mess. It's hard to get hyped for a match between Player A and Player B at dreamhack, when they just played at MLG, and then in every invitational tournament in the last 2 months. We should be looking at how professional sports run leagues, and copying that. Because that's proven to work! problem is the scene doesn't have the money to enforce that, or pay the players enough to actually have it work.
Thus the old conundrum, of you need money to make money.
On February 09 2012 19:30 MrBitter wrote: From my slightly-insiders point of view:
Right now people aren't making money. Hosting tournaments is expensive, and ad revs from the streaming platforms seldom cover just the prize pools. The only way these organizers stay in business right now is with investor/sponsor money.
I've spoken with many of these sponsors, and I've asked them the very straight question: "How the hell do you make any money in this business?", and the answer is always the same: "We don't."
The big, powerhouse sponsors - the multi-billion dollar corporations that have infinite money to throw around, continue to invest in e-sports, not for profit, but to modernize their image, and to appear "cool" in today's market. True story.
The smaller/mid-range sponsors - industry specific tech companies, peripheral manufacturers, basically companies that cater to a niche market already, are definitely trying to carve out a piece of what they perceive as a growing market, but think about how many mouse pads have to be sold to run a tournament? How many graphics cards, or notebooks have to be bought to cover JUST the prize pools?
There is definitely a day of reckoning on the horizon. A lot of people jumped into the game in hopes of cashing in on e-sports, but it's excruciatingly difficult to make money in this business.
People keep citing the GSL as the premiere league, and the only one worth paying for, but the cold truth is that they too are walking a very thin line in terms of their sustainability.
Some of these tournament organizers are eventually going to have to tap out, or drastically scale back what they've been doing. For events to continue to grow, event organizers will have to figure out a way to make money. Even if it is purely for love of the game, you can't keep playing if you can't stop bleeding cash.
PPV models are something industry people are looking at because it HAS worked in the past. It's what got UFC from grassroots to the big stage. But there were more factors in UFC rising to the level it has than just a functional PPV platform.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that you can't charge people to watch Starcraft. There's just too much free Starcraft available. What you can do is charge people to participate in chat, to access VODs, and to avoid seeing ads.
But that change alone would not make running major tournaments profitable. For that to happen, the people at the top of the industry, Sundance, David Ting, Carmac, Robert Ohlen, Russ, have got to figure out ways to sell their product to a small, niche market, without that market turning on them.
It's a very difficult problem to solve, and the answer may very well be to scale back and hold smaller events, but really, nobody wants that.
We all want bigger, better, faster, and stronger, and in the world of business, the first guy to figure out how to deliver that, while still making money, is going to be the one that survives.
Can this be edited into the OP? So important that people realise that no-one is really making bank off e-sports and very few organisations ever have.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I think there's this perception that companies are making money, but I doubt they are.
It's a tough spot. Monetize and people revolt and you die. Don't monetize and you slowly drown. I don't know how it's going to work. Maybe you have to completely level up the broadcast to a completely different place where people expect to pay for that quality? No idea.
Edit: No one seems to treat this as a business. There's a feeling things should be free because they want it to grow. Until we get past that and make it a business, it'll never be more than a niche market, which is fine, but it is what it is.
I think it's totally realistic for viewers to continue to get what they're already getting for free, but have the monetized portion of the event something that, if people want additional content, they can pay for it, kind of like one of those silly blu ray discs.
Like with MLG's lately. You get the main streams ezpz, but the quad view gold and w/e streams you have to pay for, so you can still see the main games that everyone gets hyped about, but the additional content is stuff like candid interviews and lower prestige open bracket rounds. If they had multiple streams, one devoted to interviews, several devoted to specific chunks of open brackets, etc, and whatever else you can think up, and charge viewers for THAT content, while just getting ad revenue from people that don't care as much, i think it works out fine.
The quality of the product is usually way too low for me to consider paying for it. Code S is the only place where the casters are never bad/annoying, the games usually of the highest quality & there's no delays or other junk. I don't mind paying for that, np. The rest of the tournaments mess up one way or another so if it weren't for free I'd just watch some other stream.
I feel like this guy is missing a certain piece of information, yet I know that he knows it. His rant is confusing because it doesn't make any sense with that missing bit of information. I'm thinking his rant comes from a general anger that he has because he knows a lot of his friends are going to fail hard and be out of the business in the not too distant future.
The part that he is missing is that Starcraft is already being monetized... he has to know that much. Nearly every major tournament has a premium service of some kind. Nearly every major tournament and team already sells merchandise... I can go to the TL store and buy 6 different shirts and two posters, I can unleash the gracken, or I can buy all sorts of MLG branded stuff. Nearly every major tournament and team has major sponsorship support. Nearly every major tournament charges entrance fees to the events. That all sounds like a lot of monetization. In fact, that's the exactly same monetization that every major sport around the world uses... actually, most don't use premium streams, but a rare few (MMA, Boxing, ???) use PPV instead.
People already are shelling out the money. The problem is that there just aren't enough of us. An American football playoff game this year hit 40 million viewers and it's not even a worldwide sport. IEM Sao Paulo day 1 hit what? 10k? 15k? Maybe 20k? What are the all-time stream records for a tournament? 150k? 200k? That was an extreme rarity whereas major sports can regularly pull in 1 million+ viewers for regular season garbage games. And they do it on a proven medium (TV, where ad revenues are still reasonably good) as opposed to a new medium (streams, where ad revenue is a fledgling industry in its own right). Certain stadiums get 100k or more attendance and 30k+ is not uncommon at all even at $40+ per ticket.
E-Sports still needs to grow its audience. MLG needs to hit 200k viewers regularly on their events, not just the best final day of the year. The final day needs to hit 500k (exact number pulled out of my posterior) before advertisers really start to care... where they have a big enough audience to make a return on their advertizing bucks. When you get that many people, if 10% of the people buy a T-Shirt, you've just sold 50k t-shirts and can pay out some reasonable salaries.
The problem is that we're simply not there yet. Yelling at the audience to spend more doesn't exactly encourage them. Instead it tends to alienate the audience and my personal opinion of this vVv guy went from neutral down to a negative. I also think that turning major tournaments into PPV is too early in SC2's development (PPV might never be a good idea). It has the potential to drive away a huge portion of the audience. Eyeballs aren't as important as pure money, but they are still important and represent money in the form of advertizing dollars and growth. Those eyeballs may tell their friends and build the audience that you need. Maybe those eyeballs even decide to buy a t-shirt or pay for the premium stream in the future.
Don't cripple a growing audience by trying to shake it down for money too soon. Let the audience grow and decide when they want to pay for premium services and merchandise. I hate to say it, but if you have to, you need to cut down prize pools, live event expenses, or some production quality until the audience is large enough to justify it.
As a related thought: Does anyone find it interesting that the sports that use the PPV model (MMA, Boxing) are violent sports that many sponsors don't want to be associated with? Almost as if they use the PPV model because they know that sponsorship dollars won't come in proportion to their audience. The sports that are almost completely socially accepted and are able to get sponsorship dollars seem to almost never use the PPV model.
When I was in college I would go clubbing with my friends occasionally. To pay the cover that would sometimes be up to 20 dollars, just for the privilege of being around drunk, sweaty people with overloud music destroying my hearing. Surely the same amount for a high quality stream of the best SC2 players in the world is worth just as much.
If they upped production values I might pay to watch some hd streams. But as it is it usually looks way to amateurish for me to even consider paying. I think they'd be shooting themselves in the foot by charging for it, they'd definetly lose alot of viewers thus getting less exposure. Unless they could rival that of other sports though in production value, better camera work, less uncomfortable moments when presenting players and winners for example.
On February 09 2012 22:03 RenSC2 wrote: Don't cripple a growing audience by trying to shake it down for money too soon. Let the audience grow and decide when they want to pay for premium services and merchandise. I hate to say it, but if you have to, you need to cut down prize pools, live event expenses, or some production quality until the audience is large enough to justify it.
The SC2 scene is probably already past it's peak growth judging by recent threads that have noticed a decline in people actually playing the game each season, I don't see how you're expecting it to grow any more. Sure you can argue that more people will play when HOTS comes out, but I'm pretty sure those are the same people who will leave again after 2-3 seasons anyway to play/watch some other game. Even then, fast-track to when LOTV comes out and the same situation occurs, what then? You'll still have the same relatively sized audience and we'll (probably) be back into this situation.
That word "e-sports" again. You know why we hear it all the time? The people with the loudest voices have a massive stake in it, and need it to succeed and grow because it funds them. It MUST succeed for them. The casters, the event organizers, even the moderators on this forum to a small extent. They will often lean on the mantra "I know about the business side of e-sports, so pipe down and listen" and circulate false dilemmas regarding an imminent e-sports scene collapse.
The truth is, as of right now the fans have the best possible deal. Lots of free, high quality streams. Players who are active in the community, who you can walk up to and start a conversation. Attempts at monetization which are not particularly intrusive. You should count yourself lucky how fortunate you are to have such power as a fan. You are in the golden age of "e-sports" right now, this is it, the most pure form of entertainment and competition without execs in suits trying to streamline it for mass consumption. You want that to change?
Luckily SC2 viewers are part of the hardest demographic to reach in advertising, who are abandoning traditional media in their droves, and sponsors will always want to tap into that market. What worries guys like LordJerith the most, is that even if MLG or vVv were to hypothetically collapse, some guy with a lot of money and optimism would spring up and start another business which takes their place in time simply because human nature is to pursue growth and progress. The same reason most will insinctively disagree with my post.
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
If this happened, the only people watching MLG/IPL/IEM/NASL would be hardcore fans of NA/EU pros and LoL people.
Even then, most LoL players won't be paying for the services (they play a free game for Pete's sake).
To be honest, watching low quality tournament streams these days is sometimes worse than getting on team liquid and looking at some streams.
Take IEM Kiev for example. I watched Zenio v Naniwa, Kas v Zenio, and MMA v Dimaga in IPL Kiev. Kas v Zenio was the only one worth watching.
To me the tournament had 1 good match, a couple of one sided stompings, and low quality games that don't even compare to watching streams. I would not pay or even watch if the streams were of lower quality than everyday player streams. I'd rather watch a 480p+ stream than one that looked as if it was still BW. I'd still be watching BW if I didn't care for the visual stuff.
Hey, I liked Kas v Zenio. Despite that, I could've watched Kas or Zenio's stream or some other high quality players. I'm not paying $25 to watch anything like IEM Kiev.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
Yes that's correct.
Hard to see anyone making any sort of money out of that without some serious serious viewer numbers to pull big sponsors. I'm talking in the 500k region here.
On February 09 2012 16:32 m4inbrain wrote: Just thought a bit about it.. Its actually kinda stupid to say "well, ad-revenue isnt enough anymore - lets charge viewers". If you have strictly a "no pay, no view"-restriction, you will lose more than 50% of the viewership. More likely more than that. So the ad-revenue will go down pretty harsh.
Theres actually no base at all at the moment to charge like 20$ for a MLG. If there is a big game which becomes famous - well, ill watch it later as VOD. Even if they charge for the VODs, some guy from somewhere will share the VOD with me. If there is not, well.. Ill watch another tournament which charges less/offers more.
On our "mainstreet" we have, i think, 6 different hardware-stores. Private, not like DELL or something. 3 of them closed recently, because they tried to price their stuff lower than the other stores and went into bankrupcy (spelled wrong i think). There wouldnt be "awesome esport", there would be "mlg vs ign vs dh vs etc", all of them would try to steal viewers from another tournament. Again: the base is not big enough for that.
First of all, your 50% is a totally made up statistic. If you have a source I would love to read it, but otherwise where do you get that number? It could be 90% or it could be 10%. 50% is completely random.
As for your hardware example, that is a bad example. There are so many places to go buy hardware from and you will be buying the same hardware. If I want to watch DRG vs MMA in an epic best of 7 then I have to pay for the Blizzard Cup. I can't watch DRG vs MMA at some MLG for free because there is no guarantee that I will get that same epic best of 7. It's not comparable. What might happen is I go to watch LoL or Dota instead of SC2 (if you're into that; if all you watch is SC then it won't matter).
Its actually no statistic at all (but feel free to start a poll). But a reasonable guess. Watch streamchats, forums etc - you will get the reason.
And of course its comparable. How do you know that your MMA vs DRG will be epic? Could be DRG dronerushing MMA. And apart from that: just look around you. Every single game/sport that has "business" involved is dominated by ONE big league/tournament. Why is that? Someone in this thread actually had the right idea, just think about world of warcraft. How many p2p-MMOs do you see on the market, and better: how do they compare to WoW in terms of subscriptions? Yeah. You guessed right, the only one noteworthy is SWTOR. And well, i just cancelled by sub after the first month, and so did many others.
You cant(!) have 4 big leagues next to each other. That doesnt work. Because business is also about expanding. If you want to expand, you need to kill the other leagues, because no one would actually pay 25$ a month to 4 different leagues. That just wont happen.
There is little reason to assume that because football, and basketball, and hockey all went this way, that eSports will too. It's a different market and a different technology. It's not as directly comparable as people want it to be. It still needs to be monetized better, but it doesn't have to be monetized the way other sports need to.
Wait. It happened to every (and i mean: every) sport so far, and thats just "little reason"? You are damn right its a different market, especially because its a sooooo much smaller market. Even on free streams, what was the highest amount of viewers you saw? 100k? Iirc (maybe wrong, but im pretty sure) the highest number i saw was round about 150k. Thats 150000 persons watching a FREE stream. 150000. Any idea how small of a number that is? Its literally nothing. There are stadiums out there, in which you could fit more than that. So now you want cancel free streams, and charge. You lose lets say 50k viewers. 100k left. How do you aquire new ones? As you said, Starcraft is NOT football. Or baseball. Or basketball, or anything else that we played as kids (and our parents, and their parents, and THEIR parents etc). You need to have a special interest in starcraft, to watch these streams. If you just want to watch exciting sport, there are tons of them out there, in the TV, for free. So how do you advertise your stream to grow? Its completely pointless to even discuss it, because it cant work. Its not like millions and billions of people watch starcraft 2. Its actually a really small part, even smaller than WoW, LoL or DoTA(2).
Also, if its true what someone just pointed out, well.. Its even "pointlessier" (oO) to discuss, because it cant actually happen.
Yea, i actually wanted to know why u think MLG sucks. Although, have in mind, before sc2, worldwide esports scene and infrastructure have been almost non-existant (speaking about RTS), apart from Korea. We cannot expect to have everything in few years. In other words, the expectations shouldnt be as high as production that are on TV shows, or high-profile sports, and whatnot.
You know what? I agree completely. But the same goes for fees/charges.
you dont watch them for FREE since you have to PAY to get the cable or satellite. ads are good but people using add blocker (should be around 50% of the people) dont get any revenue to them stream, so if they would atleast pay a subscrition it would give the a little bit of money from those people
I think LordJerith is being too aggressive with the money-making ideas. MLG slightly increasing the price of tickets is one thing. Asking us to pay for generic streams (when there are dozens of pro-gamers and tournaments streaming per day that we could watch instead of Stream X) is another. The GSL is a cut above the rest, and even other tournaments like MLG can make some money off fans buying season passes... but asking for too much too soon will just push everyone away.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
Yes that's correct.
Hard to see anyone making any sort of money out of that without some serious serious viewer numbers to pull big sponsors. I'm talking in the 500k region here.
SC2 will never bring in those numbers for an american/euro tourney I am 100% positive on this
Most LoL has ever gotten was 210k and they had a news post about it inside their game telling you to go watch. They also have over 1.3million active players playing at once, even if SC2 were to do something like that it wouldnt be the same because the amount of people that play it are significantly lower and you want to see double that? Simply wont happen
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
Yes that's correct.
Hard to see anyone making any sort of money out of that without some serious serious viewer numbers to pull big sponsors. I'm talking in the 500k region here.
SC2 will never bring in those numbers for an american/euro tourney I am 100% positive on this
Most LoL has ever gotten was 210k and they had a news post about it inside their game telling you to go watch. They also have over 1.3million active players playing at once, even if SC2 were to do something like that it wouldnt be the same because the amount of people that play it are significantly lower
So do we deduce from this that the major organisations are fucked then?
For a quality product, I don't mind paying. And I'm saying that while one year ago I would have said that I would never pay for anything. But then the GSL happened, and the product is so good that I gladly paid for it. It changed my mind about the subject. I also paid for MLG streams. The thing is, there is so much content right now that you have to really do a damn good job to make people pay.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
I believe so, and I really don't think that having a great quality, on time, event with amazing players and commentators is too much to ask for. People wouldn't pay as much money to watch professional sports on television if there were huge difficulties (although different problems may arise through different media outlets). And if a particular tournament doesn't care enough about quality, then they'll go out of business because there are plenty of other companies ready to satiate this budding community's hunger.
On February 09 2012 22:15 ropumar wrote: "10% of the people buy a T-Shirt" 10% buying T-shirts is an outrageous number.... more than likely no more than 0.5% of people buy T-shirts
Not 10% buying that day, but perhaps averaging out to 10% buying over the course of a year. In Brazil, how many people do you know who do not own a t-shirt with some futball team/league/event on it? I know where I'm at in the United States, almost everyone owns some Chicago Bears gear. I personally own at least two T-shirts, two sweatshirts, and even a pair of earmuffs with the Chicago Bears labeled on it. Maybe I'm completely off-base and way too high, but that 10% number could easily be low if I'm talking lifetime as opposed to yearly.
On February 09 2012 22:19 Jojo131 wrote: The SC2 scene is probably already past it's peak growth judging by recent threads that have noticed a decline in people actually playing the game each season, I don't see how you're expecting it to grow any more. Sure you can argue that more people will play when HOTS comes out, but I'm pretty sure those are the same people who will leave again after 2-3 seasons anyway to play/watch some other game. Even then, fast-track to when LOTV comes out and the same situation occurs, what then? You'll still have the same relatively sized audience and we'll (probably) be back into this situation.
Starcraft 2 has a better position to become a legitimate sport than almost all other video games because it is one of the rare ones where a lot of people actually prefer watching to playing. The ladder numbers will undoubtedly decrease until HotS (or maybe a slight bump right beforehand), but that doesn't have to mean viewer numbers decrease. It may mean that the community will need to do a better job of bringing outsiders in, but that's a whole other topic.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
A typical televised sport: - HD quality broadcast, YES. - TV broadcast production levels, they are the standard so YES - Constant flow of high quality content, YES - Perfectly run event, generally YES - The best casters, some subjectivity but overall YES - The very best players, YES
The cost: $0.
Sounds like E-Sports is overcharging.
A little joking on that last line, but real sports are competition for E-Sports. And that competitor does all those things for your free viewing. (sarc)Somehow those real sports teams and leagues have managed to squeak by and stave off catastrophe. Some of their players can even manage to rent a one room apartment(/sarc).
As I was saying in my last post, the problem isn't the model, e-sports actually monetizes more than traditional sports, the problem is the viewer numbers.
On February 09 2012 22:15 ropumar wrote: "10% of the people buy a T-Shirt" 10% buying T-shirts is an outrageous number.... more than likely no more than 0.5% of people buy T-shirts
Not 10% buying that day, but perhaps averaging out to 10% buying over the course of a year. In Brazil, how many people do you know who do not own a t-shirt with some futball team/league/event on it? I know where I'm at in the United States, almost everyone owns some Chicago Bears gear. I personally own at least two T-shirts, two sweatshirts, and even a pair of earmuffs with the Chicago Bears labeled on it. Maybe I'm completely off-base and way too high, but that 10% number could easily be low if I'm talking lifetime as opposed to yearly.
On February 09 2012 22:19 Jojo131 wrote: The SC2 scene is probably already past it's peak growth judging by recent threads that have noticed a decline in people actually playing the game each season, I don't see how you're expecting it to grow any more. Sure you can argue that more people will play when HOTS comes out, but I'm pretty sure those are the same people who will leave again after 2-3 seasons anyway to play/watch some other game. Even then, fast-track to when LOTV comes out and the same situation occurs, what then? You'll still have the same relatively sized audience and we'll (probably) be back into this situation.
Starcraft 2 has a better position to become a legitimate sport than almost all other video games because it is one of the rare ones where a lot of people actually prefer watching to playing. The ladder numbers will undoubtedly decrease until HotS (or maybe a slight bump right beforehand), but that doesn't have to mean viewer numbers decrease. It may mean that the community will need to do a better job of bringing outsiders in, but that's a whole other topic.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
A typical televised sport: - HD quality broadcast, YES. - TV broadcast production levels, they are the standard so YES - Constant flow of high quality content, YES - Perfectly run event, generally YES - The best casters, some subjectivity but overall YES - The very best players, YES
The cost: $0.
Sounds like E-Sports is overcharging.
A little joking on that last line, but real sports are competition for E-Sports. And that competitor does all those things for your free viewing. (sarc)Somehow those real sports teams and leagues have managed to squeak by and stave off catastrophe. Some of their players can even manage to rent a one room apartment(/sarc).
As I was saying in my last post, the problem isn't the model, e-sports actually monetizes more than traditional sports, the problem is the viewer numbers.
And the viewer numbers are low because of the quality and formats of the shows. So tournaments need to think it through to make more people watch their adds. It's all about the rating.
Why hasn't any tournament tried doing a "pay what you want"-model yet? Or maybe someone has, but I can't recall it happened.
Speed Demos Archive, the home to video game speed runs, is proud to present a special speed running marathon: Awesome Games Done Quick, a 6-day online event played to raise money for cancer prevention and streamed live for you to watch!
The marathon has finished, and over $149,000 was successfully raised for the Prevent Cancer Foundation, our partner for this event. We deeply appreciate everyone who donated, watched, or helped out in any way!
Ok, so that was for a charity event which might have been an extra incentive for people to donate, but that was simply from donations watching gamers do speedruns of games, some of them very odd and unheard of.
But there are other methods to be explored for making money than jumping straight to "ok, now you gotta pay to watch our tournament". This being the internet and all (where so much content is free and has been for a long time) a PPV model or any forced payment for streams should be a last resort imo.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
I believe so, and I really don't think that having a great quality, on time, event with amazing players and commentators is too much to ask for. People wouldn't pay as much money to watch professional sports on television if there were huge difficulties (although different problems may arise through different media outlets). And if a particular tournament doesn't care enough about quality, then they'll go out of business because there are plenty of other companies ready to satiate this budding community's hunger.
While I agree on the point that we should expect these things as fans as we have been able to get nearly all of them before, I just don't see where the money is in it. All of those things require a different set of staff with certain expertise (casters and production staff), expensive equipment (like the infamous MLG satellite trucks) and the very best care for players (dedicated player staff and paid expenses).
For example I really don't understand IPL's business model at all, offering so much stuff that should be premium while putting really gimmicky stuff (player cams and roving interviewers) behind a pay-wall. Obviously they do have a fairly impressive list of sponsors but whether they are going to stick around for the upcoming IPL's when the first one just about hit 50k with some ridiculous production values and ggs.....I just don't get how its profitable or even sustainable.
On February 09 2012 22:15 ropumar wrote: "10% of the people buy a T-Shirt" 10% buying T-shirts is an outrageous number.... more than likely no more than 0.5% of people buy T-shirts
Not 10% buying that day, but perhaps averaging out to 10% buying over the course of a year. In Brazil, how many people do you know who do not own a t-shirt with some futball team/league/event on it? I know where I'm at in the United States, almost everyone owns some Chicago Bears gear. I personally own at least two T-shirts, two sweatshirts, and even a pair of earmuffs with the Chicago Bears labeled on it. Maybe I'm completely off-base and way too high, but that 10% number could easily be low if I'm talking lifetime as opposed to yearly.
On February 09 2012 22:19 Jojo131 wrote: The SC2 scene is probably already past it's peak growth judging by recent threads that have noticed a decline in people actually playing the game each season, I don't see how you're expecting it to grow any more. Sure you can argue that more people will play when HOTS comes out, but I'm pretty sure those are the same people who will leave again after 2-3 seasons anyway to play/watch some other game. Even then, fast-track to when LOTV comes out and the same situation occurs, what then? You'll still have the same relatively sized audience and we'll (probably) be back into this situation.
Starcraft 2 has a better position to become a legitimate sport than almost all other video games because it is one of the rare ones where a lot of people actually prefer watching to playing. The ladder numbers will undoubtedly decrease until HotS (or maybe a slight bump right beforehand), but that doesn't have to mean viewer numbers decrease. It may mean that the community will need to do a better job of bringing outsiders in, but that's a whole other topic.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
A typical televised sport: - HD quality broadcast, YES. - TV broadcast production levels, they are the standard so YES - Constant flow of high quality content, YES - Perfectly run event, generally YES - The best casters, some subjectivity but overall YES - The very best players, YES
The cost: $0.
Sounds like E-Sports is overcharging.
A little joking on that last line, but real sports are competition for E-Sports. And that competitor does all those things for your free viewing. (sarc)Somehow those real sports teams and leagues have managed to squeak by and stave off catastrophe. Some of their players can even manage to rent a one room apartment(/sarc).
As I was saying in my last post, the problem isn't the model, e-sports actually monetizes more than traditional sports, the problem is the viewer numbers.
And the viewer numbers are low because of the quality and formats of the shows. So tournaments need to think it through to make more people watch their adds. It's all about the rating.
Where did you get this from? If the viewers numbers are low that means the market isn't ready for it from the demanding side. If there are no strong demands you either need to generate them or pull out of this "market" which then isn't really one Edit: or ofc its your product placement thats lacks something.
On February 09 2012 22:15 ropumar wrote: "10% of the people buy a T-Shirt" 10% buying T-shirts is an outrageous number.... more than likely no more than 0.5% of people buy T-shirts
Not 10% buying that day, but perhaps averaging out to 10% buying over the course of a year. In Brazil, how many people do you know who do not own a t-shirt with some futball team/league/event on it? I know where I'm at in the United States, almost everyone owns some Chicago Bears gear. I personally own at least two T-shirts, two sweatshirts, and even a pair of earmuffs with the Chicago Bears labeled on it. Maybe I'm completely off-base and way too high, but that 10% number could easily be low if I'm talking lifetime as opposed to yearly.
On February 09 2012 22:19 Jojo131 wrote: The SC2 scene is probably already past it's peak growth judging by recent threads that have noticed a decline in people actually playing the game each season, I don't see how you're expecting it to grow any more. Sure you can argue that more people will play when HOTS comes out, but I'm pretty sure those are the same people who will leave again after 2-3 seasons anyway to play/watch some other game. Even then, fast-track to when LOTV comes out and the same situation occurs, what then? You'll still have the same relatively sized audience and we'll (probably) be back into this situation.
Starcraft 2 has a better position to become a legitimate sport than almost all other video games because it is one of the rare ones where a lot of people actually prefer watching to playing. The ladder numbers will undoubtedly decrease until HotS (or maybe a slight bump right beforehand), but that doesn't have to mean viewer numbers decrease. It may mean that the community will need to do a better job of bringing outsiders in, but that's a whole other topic.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
A typical televised sport: - HD quality broadcast, YES. - TV broadcast production levels, they are the standard so YES - Constant flow of high quality content, YES - Perfectly run event, generally YES - The best casters, some subjectivity but overall YES - The very best players, YES
The cost: $0.
Sounds like E-Sports is overcharging.
A little joking on that last line, but real sports are competition for E-Sports. And that competitor does all those things for your free viewing. (sarc)Somehow those real sports teams and leagues have managed to squeak by and stave off catastrophe. Some of their players can even manage to rent a one room apartment(/sarc).
As I was saying in my last post, the problem isn't the model, e-sports actually monetizes more than traditional sports, the problem is the viewer numbers.
And the viewer numbers are low because of the quality and formats of the shows. So tournaments need to think it through to make more people watch their adds. It's all about the rating.
Where did you get this from? If the viewers numbers are low that means the market isn't ready for it from the demanding side. If there are no strong demands you either need to generate them or pull out of this "market" which then isn't really one.
People are ready for starcraft, just that the format may be wrong. If a TV show doesn't get high ratings it's its fault and no others. Starcraft has great appeal.
On February 09 2012 22:15 ropumar wrote: "10% of the people buy a T-Shirt" 10% buying T-shirts is an outrageous number.... more than likely no more than 0.5% of people buy T-shirts
Not 10% buying that day, but perhaps averaging out to 10% buying over the course of a year. In Brazil, how many people do you know who do not own a t-shirt with some futball team/league/event on it? I know where I'm at in the United States, almost everyone owns some Chicago Bears gear. I personally own at least two T-shirts, two sweatshirts, and even a pair of earmuffs with the Chicago Bears labeled on it. Maybe I'm completely off-base and way too high, but that 10% number could easily be low if I'm talking lifetime as opposed to yearly.
On February 09 2012 22:19 Jojo131 wrote: The SC2 scene is probably already past it's peak growth judging by recent threads that have noticed a decline in people actually playing the game each season, I don't see how you're expecting it to grow any more. Sure you can argue that more people will play when HOTS comes out, but I'm pretty sure those are the same people who will leave again after 2-3 seasons anyway to play/watch some other game. Even then, fast-track to when LOTV comes out and the same situation occurs, what then? You'll still have the same relatively sized audience and we'll (probably) be back into this situation.
Starcraft 2 has a better position to become a legitimate sport than almost all other video games because it is one of the rare ones where a lot of people actually prefer watching to playing. The ladder numbers will undoubtedly decrease until HotS (or maybe a slight bump right beforehand), but that doesn't have to mean viewer numbers decrease. It may mean that the community will need to do a better job of bringing outsiders in, but that's a whole other topic.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
A typical televised sport: - HD quality broadcast, YES. - TV broadcast production levels, they are the standard so YES - Constant flow of high quality content, YES - Perfectly run event, generally YES - The best casters, some subjectivity but overall YES - The very best players, YES
The cost: $0.
Sounds like E-Sports is overcharging.
A little joking on that last line, but real sports are competition for E-Sports. And that competitor does all those things for your free viewing. (sarc)Somehow those real sports teams and leagues have managed to squeak by and stave off catastrophe. Some of their players can even manage to rent a one room apartment(/sarc).
As I was saying in my last post, the problem isn't the model, e-sports actually monetizes more than traditional sports, the problem is the viewer numbers.
And the viewer numbers are low because of the quality and formats of the shows. So tournaments need to think it through to make more people watch their adds. It's all about the rating.
With the exception of certain things like Champions League and sometimes the World Cup, I would have to pay a high premium here in Ireland to get any of those things, paying for Sky Sports or ESPN or whatever. The only reason that the CL and WC appear on non-subscription TV is because they pull in incredible numbers and are the most lucrative adverising slots possible for many TV stations. I don't really think that any ESPORT event can compare to those.
On February 09 2012 19:30 MrBitter wrote: From my slightly-insiders point of view:
Right now people aren't making money. Hosting tournaments is expensive, and ad revs from the streaming platforms seldom cover just the prize pools. The only way these organizers stay in business right now is with investor/sponsor money.
I've spoken with many of these sponsors, and I've asked them the very straight question: "How the hell do you make any money in this business?", and the answer is always the same: "We don't."
The big, powerhouse sponsors - the multi-billion dollar corporations that have infinite money to throw around, continue to invest in e-sports, not for profit, but to modernize their image, and to appear "cool" in today's market. True story.
The smaller/mid-range sponsors - industry specific tech companies, peripheral manufacturers, basically companies that cater to a niche market already, are definitely trying to carve out a piece of what they perceive as a growing market, but think about how many mouse pads have to be sold to run a tournament? How many graphics cards, or notebooks have to be bought to cover JUST the prize pools?
There is definitely a day of reckoning on the horizon. A lot of people jumped into the game in hopes of cashing in on e-sports, but it's excruciatingly difficult to make money in this business.
People keep citing the GSL as the premiere league, and the only one worth paying for, but the cold truth is that they too are walking a very thin line in terms of their sustainability.
Some of these tournament organizers are eventually going to have to tap out, or drastically scale back what they've been doing. For events to continue to grow, event organizers will have to figure out a way to make money. Even if it is purely for love of the game, you can't keep playing if you can't stop bleeding cash.
PPV models are something industry people are looking at because it HAS worked in the past. It's what got UFC from grassroots to the big stage. But there were more factors in UFC rising to the level it has than just a functional PPV platform.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that you can't charge people to watch Starcraft. There's just too much free Starcraft available. What you can do is charge people to participate in chat, to access VODs, and to avoid seeing ads.
But that change alone would not make running major tournaments profitable. For that to happen, the people at the top of the industry, Sundance, David Ting, Carmac, Robert Ohlen, Russ, have got to figure out ways to sell their product to a small, niche market, without that market turning on them.
It's a very difficult problem to solve, and the answer may very well be to scale back and hold smaller events, but really, nobody wants that.
We all want bigger, better, faster, and stronger, and in the world of business, the first guy to figure out how to deliver that, while still making money, is going to be the one that survives.
It seems to me that a lot of esports brands are pursuing the tech startup model of first getting the users and the scale, and then figuring out how to monetize. That works fine for tech, but only because there are enormous returns to scale and they have huge piles of VC cash to burn. For esports, I think it's a terrible model:
1. The network effects are limited. No one wants GSL because all their friends are on GSL. They want GSL because they love SC2 and the games are amazing. But that means that the pool of potential customers is fixed, and actually probably shrinking. You aren't going to build a business in this environment by pursuing a grow-now, monetize-later strategy.
2. Giving away a free product is treated as a license to produce a bad product. I agree with everyone else who's said it that Code S is the only SC2 product that fully meets what I think are the minimum criteria for a commercial product. Other tournaments seem to be poorly produced and carried by great players and (sometimes) great casters. Some esports orgs (thinking MLG and, apparently, vvv gaming here) seem to hold their users in open contempt, which certainly doesn't help either.
3. The free model is just convincing people they shouldn't have to pay for esports. I get the impression that you buy into this view, but I don't really agree. The amount of content that a major tournament produces is just staggering. A GSL season is around a hundred hours of content probably. That's a lot of stuff! GSL does a better job of managing the amount of content they have by spreading it out over a season, which is a nice feature. But people will pay $10 to go see a movie. They'll certainly pay $10 to watch 50x as much content, if they are excited about esports.
I get your concern about competition from free content, but if your product can't compete with some random streamer, then it's because you're producing a bad product.
Charging people for random incidental bullshit is a bad model, imo, because you are never going to raise enough revenue to support a great product. You're essentially saying to treat the tournaments and the production as a loss leader and nickle and dime people on conveniences. It might work for Zynga, but it's no way to cater to a niche market.
So, I definitely believe that the way forward is to produce a truly professional-level product and charge for it accordingly. esports has the advantage that you can attract world-class talent to an event with truly paltry sums of money. Add in the professional production, casting, and delivery, and you have a product that fans are going to love and care about. And then just don't give it away for free.
On February 09 2012 22:15 ropumar wrote: "10% of the people buy a T-Shirt" 10% buying T-shirts is an outrageous number.... more than likely no more than 0.5% of people buy T-shirts
Not 10% buying that day, but perhaps averaging out to 10% buying over the course of a year. In Brazil, how many people do you know who do not own a t-shirt with some futball team/league/event on it? I know where I'm at in the United States, almost everyone owns some Chicago Bears gear. I personally own at least two T-shirts, two sweatshirts, and even a pair of earmuffs with the Chicago Bears labeled on it. Maybe I'm completely off-base and way too high, but that 10% number could easily be low if I'm talking lifetime as opposed to yearly.
On February 09 2012 22:19 Jojo131 wrote: The SC2 scene is probably already past it's peak growth judging by recent threads that have noticed a decline in people actually playing the game each season, I don't see how you're expecting it to grow any more. Sure you can argue that more people will play when HOTS comes out, but I'm pretty sure those are the same people who will leave again after 2-3 seasons anyway to play/watch some other game. Even then, fast-track to when LOTV comes out and the same situation occurs, what then? You'll still have the same relatively sized audience and we'll (probably) be back into this situation.
Starcraft 2 has a better position to become a legitimate sport than almost all other video games because it is one of the rare ones where a lot of people actually prefer watching to playing. The ladder numbers will undoubtedly decrease until HotS (or maybe a slight bump right beforehand), but that doesn't have to mean viewer numbers decrease. It may mean that the community will need to do a better job of bringing outsiders in, but that's a whole other topic.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
A typical televised sport: - HD quality broadcast, YES. - TV broadcast production levels, they are the standard so YES - Constant flow of high quality content, YES - Perfectly run event, generally YES - The best casters, some subjectivity but overall YES - The very best players, YES
The cost: $0.
Sounds like E-Sports is overcharging.
A little joking on that last line, but real sports are competition for E-Sports. And that competitor does all those things for your free viewing. (sarc)Somehow those real sports teams and leagues have managed to squeak by and stave off catastrophe. Some of their players can even manage to rent a one room apartment(/sarc).
As I was saying in my last post, the problem isn't the model, e-sports actually monetizes more than traditional sports, the problem is the viewer numbers.
And the viewer numbers are low because of the quality and formats of the shows. So tournaments need to think it through to make more people watch their adds. It's all about the rating.
Where did you get this from? If the viewers numbers are low that means the market isn't ready for it from the demanding side. If there are no strong demands you either need to generate them or pull out of this "market" which then isn't really one.
People are ready for starcraft, just that the format may be wrong. If a TV show doesn't get high ratings it's its fault and no others. Starcraft has great appeal.
? So the format in terms of stream? tournaments? And why are people ready for "starcraft"(i would rather stick to esports) when they don't watch it that much as u assumed. TV here is not even in FullHD, just blockbusters and stuff or you need to pay for it. So ... yea, same business modell and quality isn't it? People still watch TV.
On February 09 2012 22:15 ropumar wrote: "10% of the people buy a T-Shirt" 10% buying T-shirts is an outrageous number.... more than likely no more than 0.5% of people buy T-shirts
Not 10% buying that day, but perhaps averaging out to 10% buying over the course of a year. In Brazil, how many people do you know who do not own a t-shirt with some futball team/league/event on it? I know where I'm at in the United States, almost everyone owns some Chicago Bears gear. I personally own at least two T-shirts, two sweatshirts, and even a pair of earmuffs with the Chicago Bears labeled on it. Maybe I'm completely off-base and way too high, but that 10% number could easily be low if I'm talking lifetime as opposed to yearly.
On February 09 2012 22:19 Jojo131 wrote: The SC2 scene is probably already past it's peak growth judging by recent threads that have noticed a decline in people actually playing the game each season, I don't see how you're expecting it to grow any more. Sure you can argue that more people will play when HOTS comes out, but I'm pretty sure those are the same people who will leave again after 2-3 seasons anyway to play/watch some other game. Even then, fast-track to when LOTV comes out and the same situation occurs, what then? You'll still have the same relatively sized audience and we'll (probably) be back into this situation.
Starcraft 2 has a better position to become a legitimate sport than almost all other video games because it is one of the rare ones where a lot of people actually prefer watching to playing. The ladder numbers will undoubtedly decrease until HotS (or maybe a slight bump right beforehand), but that doesn't have to mean viewer numbers decrease. It may mean that the community will need to do a better job of bringing outsiders in, but that's a whole other topic.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
A typical televised sport: - HD quality broadcast, YES. - TV broadcast production levels, they are the standard so YES - Constant flow of high quality content, YES - Perfectly run event, generally YES - The best casters, some subjectivity but overall YES - The very best players, YES
The cost: $0.
Sounds like E-Sports is overcharging.
A little joking on that last line, but real sports are competition for E-Sports. And that competitor does all those things for your free viewing. (sarc)Somehow those real sports teams and leagues have managed to squeak by and stave off catastrophe. Some of their players can even manage to rent a one room apartment(/sarc).
As I was saying in my last post, the problem isn't the model, e-sports actually monetizes more than traditional sports, the problem is the viewer numbers.
Its not free.. unless tv is free in the US normally you need to pay atleast 20-30$(standart tv). obviously its cheap but they have ads between most of the game and what not.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
I believe so, and I really don't think that having a great quality, on time, event with amazing players and commentators is too much to ask for. People wouldn't pay as much money to watch professional sports on television if there were huge difficulties (although different problems may arise through different media outlets). And if a particular tournament doesn't care enough about quality, then they'll go out of business because there are plenty of other companies ready to satiate this budding community's hunger.
While I agree on the point that we should expect these things as fans as we have been able to get nearly all of them before, I just don't see where the money is in it. All of those things require a different set of staff with certain expertise (casters and production staff), expensive equipment (like the infamous MLG satellite trucks) and the very best care for players (dedicated player staff and paid expenses).
For example I really don't understand IPL's business model at all, offering so much stuff that should be premium while putting really gimmicky stuff (player cams and roving interviewers) behind a pay-wall. Obviously they do have a fairly impressive list of sponsors but whether they are going to stick around for the upcoming IPL's when the first one just about hit 50k with some ridiculous production values and ggs.....I just don't get how its profitable or even sustainable.
I suppose you have to spend money to make money, especially when trying to make yourself stand out as a great-looking business compared to others who are competing in a new market.
That being said, I don't really care for too much gimmicky stuff, although it's important to find ways to pass the time between games. And I don't mind watching advertisements (it's the least I can do if I'm going to watch a free stream) but I care more about watching a good quality stream, on time, with casters and players who know what they're doing. I don't need to see too many bells and whistles (if you're wasting money on it, don't bother), and I'm not sure how much profit they're turning over at the moment either.
On February 09 2012 22:15 ropumar wrote: "10% of the people buy a T-Shirt" 10% buying T-shirts is an outrageous number.... more than likely no more than 0.5% of people buy T-shirts
Not 10% buying that day, but perhaps averaging out to 10% buying over the course of a year. In Brazil, how many people do you know who do not own a t-shirt with some futball team/league/event on it? I know where I'm at in the United States, almost everyone owns some Chicago Bears gear. I personally own at least two T-shirts, two sweatshirts, and even a pair of earmuffs with the Chicago Bears labeled on it. Maybe I'm completely off-base and way too high, but that 10% number could easily be low if I'm talking lifetime as opposed to yearly.
On February 09 2012 22:19 Jojo131 wrote: The SC2 scene is probably already past it's peak growth judging by recent threads that have noticed a decline in people actually playing the game each season, I don't see how you're expecting it to grow any more. Sure you can argue that more people will play when HOTS comes out, but I'm pretty sure those are the same people who will leave again after 2-3 seasons anyway to play/watch some other game. Even then, fast-track to when LOTV comes out and the same situation occurs, what then? You'll still have the same relatively sized audience and we'll (probably) be back into this situation.
Starcraft 2 has a better position to become a legitimate sport than almost all other video games because it is one of the rare ones where a lot of people actually prefer watching to playing. The ladder numbers will undoubtedly decrease until HotS (or maybe a slight bump right beforehand), but that doesn't have to mean viewer numbers decrease. It may mean that the community will need to do a better job of bringing outsiders in, but that's a whole other topic.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
A typical televised sport: - HD quality broadcast, YES. - TV broadcast production levels, they are the standard so YES - Constant flow of high quality content, YES - Perfectly run event, generally YES - The best casters, some subjectivity but overall YES - The very best players, YES
The cost: $0.
Sounds like E-Sports is overcharging.
A little joking on that last line, but real sports are competition for E-Sports. And that competitor does all those things for your free viewing. (sarc)Somehow those real sports teams and leagues have managed to squeak by and stave off catastrophe. Some of their players can even manage to rent a one room apartment(/sarc).
As I was saying in my last post, the problem isn't the model, e-sports actually monetizes more than traditional sports, the problem is the viewer numbers.
And the viewer numbers are low because of the quality and formats of the shows. So tournaments need to think it through to make more people watch their adds. It's all about the rating.
Where did you get this from? If the viewers numbers are low that means the market isn't ready for it from the demanding side. If there are no strong demands you either need to generate them or pull out of this "market" which then isn't really one.
People are ready for starcraft, just that the format may be wrong. If a TV show doesn't get high ratings it's its fault and no others. Starcraft has great appeal.
? So the format in terms of stream? tournaments? And why are people ready for "starcraft"(i would rather stick to esports) when they don't watch it that much as u assumed. TV here is not even in FullHD, just blockbusters and stuff or you need to pay for it. So ... yea, same business modell and quality isn't it? People still watch TV.
I am saying that there is a market for esports that can get 100k views (for start) per tournament only if an event would be created in the right format.
The formats right now are too hardcore and not enough appeal for casuals. Also not enough females on camera (not jocking, remember IPL in the downtime?).
On February 09 2012 22:15 ropumar wrote: "10% of the people buy a T-Shirt" 10% buying T-shirts is an outrageous number.... more than likely no more than 0.5% of people buy T-shirts
Not 10% buying that day, but perhaps averaging out to 10% buying over the course of a year. In Brazil, how many people do you know who do not own a t-shirt with some futball team/league/event on it? I know where I'm at in the United States, almost everyone owns some Chicago Bears gear. I personally own at least two T-shirts, two sweatshirts, and even a pair of earmuffs with the Chicago Bears labeled on it. Maybe I'm completely off-base and way too high, but that 10% number could easily be low if I'm talking lifetime as opposed to yearly.
On February 09 2012 22:19 Jojo131 wrote: The SC2 scene is probably already past it's peak growth judging by recent threads that have noticed a decline in people actually playing the game each season, I don't see how you're expecting it to grow any more. Sure you can argue that more people will play when HOTS comes out, but I'm pretty sure those are the same people who will leave again after 2-3 seasons anyway to play/watch some other game. Even then, fast-track to when LOTV comes out and the same situation occurs, what then? You'll still have the same relatively sized audience and we'll (probably) be back into this situation.
Starcraft 2 has a better position to become a legitimate sport than almost all other video games because it is one of the rare ones where a lot of people actually prefer watching to playing. The ladder numbers will undoubtedly decrease until HotS (or maybe a slight bump right beforehand), but that doesn't have to mean viewer numbers decrease. It may mean that the community will need to do a better job of bringing outsiders in, but that's a whole other topic.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
A typical televised sport: - HD quality broadcast, YES. - TV broadcast production levels, they are the standard so YES - Constant flow of high quality content, YES - Perfectly run event, generally YES - The best casters, some subjectivity but overall YES - The very best players, YES
The cost: $0.
Sounds like E-Sports is overcharging.
A little joking on that last line, but real sports are competition for E-Sports. And that competitor does all those things for your free viewing. (sarc)Somehow those real sports teams and leagues have managed to squeak by and stave off catastrophe. Some of their players can even manage to rent a one room apartment(/sarc).
As I was saying in my last post, the problem isn't the model, e-sports actually monetizes more than traditional sports, the problem is the viewer numbers.
And the viewer numbers are low because of the quality and formats of the shows. So tournaments need to think it through to make more people watch their adds. It's all about the rating.
Where did you get this from? If the viewers numbers are low that means the market isn't ready for it from the demanding side. If there are no strong demands you either need to generate them or pull out of this "market" which then isn't really one.
People are ready for starcraft, just that the format may be wrong. If a TV show doesn't get high ratings it's its fault and no others. Starcraft has great appeal.
? So the format in terms of stream? tournaments? And why are people ready for "starcraft"(i would rather stick to esports) when they don't watch it that much as u assumed. TV here is not even in FullHD, just blockbusters and stuff or you need to pay for it. So ... yea, same business modell and quality isn't it? People still watch TV.
I am saying that there is a market for esports that can get 100k views (for start) per tournament only if an event would be created in the right format.
The formats right now are too hardcore and not enough appeal for casuals. Also not enough females on camera (not jocking, remember IPL in the downtime?).
How do these supposedly free sports events on TV appeal to casuals hm? They don't. The whole women on camera thing is a marketing gimmick. No-one is going to watch MMA vs Nestea because some hot woman might be interviewing them. I would guarantee it. They are watching because MMA and Nestea are really fucking good or because its likely its in a final of a big event, like GSL or because their is a lot of money on the line.
Appealing to casuals is all well and good but at its heart SC2 is an RTS video game that requires certain basic knowledge and information to understand what is happening. While we have seen some anecdotal evidence that people who don't play at all watch, it isn't very many at all. The majority of ESPORTS viewers will more than likely always be people who playing the games in question. How did BW appeal to casuals?
If SC2 became much more expensive (like $20 for a weekend of MLG or GSL) I don't think I would pay. The problem with comparing to UFC is, there's not much competing with UFC. If you want to watch the best fighters, you'll pay the PPV costs or find a bar/friend who will (or pirate it, but we're not going to discuss that here).
However, in the case of SC2, there are so many more free or nearly-free options. Those same GSL players are also streaming their games all day for free, they're playing in showmatches, they're playing in smaller tournaments. You could also just, y'know, play the game yourself and get entertainment that way. Not really the case with UFC. The only way to monetize SC2 profitably is to scale it up slowly and gradually, until other organizations also catch on and escalate their prices as well. You can't slap a $20 price tag on something that people are used to paying $5 for and can get for free elsewhere.
Some of the opinions in this thread are incredible to read.
Like some people stated before me: - No major tournaments make money at this time. - Everyone wants high quality HD production for free, but doesn't wanna pay for it.
We are already monetizing esports but if we want to grow esports even more we need to start to monetize viewership better.
Pay-per-view and subscription models for tournaments and leagues will probably increase a lot this year and through 2013, it wouldn't surprise me if a majority of MLG events this year is pay per view.
If you want esports to grow you need to cash out. Simple as that.
On February 09 2012 17:53 bubblegumbo wrote: Monetizing the numerous big Western Tournaments would be a a mistake unless it is at a very reasonable cost. There are about 4-5 big tournaments such as the NASL, MLG, IPL, IEM already and if all of them were to charge $50 for every season, what is going to happen? Multiply that by 6 if we count the GSL and we don't even need to argue anymore.
I dont know what kind of rich family the target audience live in that would gladly pay more than $100 a year for watching SC2 and that's only assuming 1 season per year. We are talking about the budgets of normal fans of a niche industry aging from 14 to early 30s here. Finding more sponsors and buying more adverts while continuing the present model is the most reasonable way to maintain the popularity of this scene. Going PPV in the manner of other hardcore sports only makes sense when there is only one big tournament and league, and even then that would only work in NA, not in other countries that don't have that.
Are u kidding me? Did you listen his rant? How often do you go to cinema, drinking senseless, eating at MC if u ahve a full fridge? Dude those perspectives like yours are from guys who got illusioned by the "internet". The life is not for free. You normally CAN'T listen to music everywhere everyday everytime for free. You CAN'T watch movies and series for free everytime everywhere everyday. Did you even know you pay for TV?
And I for me allready pay for MLG, HSC and GSL. The Tournies I watch regularly.
I listened to it and while I agree that it would be good if people spent more money to support the events they like, I either think he's joking or don't know what he's talking about with all the yelling about that organizations should charge away.
Or maybe he's right and everyone should start charging for stuff. Hell I should start charging for my 3k members forum, imagine all amazing things I could do if those damn blood sucking users just quit being cheap and paid me!
Yea because hosting forums is a new economy ... oh wait. And I'm totally talking about charging everyone for everything ... just shows you didn't get the topic dude. Thats not how discussions work to interpret random things into it.
I don't think you understand. Why couldn't my forums be a new economy? According to his arguments I should be able to make a lot of money on it.
Hosting forums is allready a part of a big economy. Where the forum itself doesnt monteize. It is a feature often used for monetized services. And btw did you script your forum yourself or using unsave bboard? Because good forums cost money And you still miss the whole point: i was never talking about when I make a website I should get money for views. We are talking about an economy which pays their players (inc. pricemoney) over 1kk$, who flew several humans several times trough the whole world, who have production equipment equivelant to "porfessional" TV prodcutions. Maybe listen to Jerith again and in particular to what he says about console gamers and supporting/buying sc2 stuff, then you maybe see that you missinterpreted alot.
The point is that the fact that they need/want to make more money does not make for example PPV more financially viable. Which isn't even necessarily related to what is good for the sc2 scene either.
Also, his attitude about how people spend money is a huge pet peeve of mine. He's making it sound like people don't spend money on anything now a days like if people aren't spending their money. Breaking news: people are spending their money. It doesn't matter how angry you try to sound when you talk about how everyone should quit being cheap and magically spend more money on everything so we can reach fairy tale utopia, it's still retarded.
Btw I said I agreed with what he said about supporting events you like in the post you first quoted.
On February 09 2012 22:15 ropumar wrote: "10% of the people buy a T-Shirt" 10% buying T-shirts is an outrageous number.... more than likely no more than 0.5% of people buy T-shirts
Not 10% buying that day, but perhaps averaging out to 10% buying over the course of a year. In Brazil, how many people do you know who do not own a t-shirt with some futball team/league/event on it? I know where I'm at in the United States, almost everyone owns some Chicago Bears gear. I personally own at least two T-shirts, two sweatshirts, and even a pair of earmuffs with the Chicago Bears labeled on it. Maybe I'm completely off-base and way too high, but that 10% number could easily be low if I'm talking lifetime as opposed to yearly.
On February 09 2012 22:19 Jojo131 wrote: The SC2 scene is probably already past it's peak growth judging by recent threads that have noticed a decline in people actually playing the game each season, I don't see how you're expecting it to grow any more. Sure you can argue that more people will play when HOTS comes out, but I'm pretty sure those are the same people who will leave again after 2-3 seasons anyway to play/watch some other game. Even then, fast-track to when LOTV comes out and the same situation occurs, what then? You'll still have the same relatively sized audience and we'll (probably) be back into this situation.
Starcraft 2 has a better position to become a legitimate sport than almost all other video games because it is one of the rare ones where a lot of people actually prefer watching to playing. The ladder numbers will undoubtedly decrease until HotS (or maybe a slight bump right beforehand), but that doesn't have to mean viewer numbers decrease. It may mean that the community will need to do a better job of bringing outsiders in, but that's a whole other topic.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
A typical televised sport: - HD quality broadcast, YES. - TV broadcast production levels, they are the standard so YES - Constant flow of high quality content, YES - Perfectly run event, generally YES - The best casters, some subjectivity but overall YES - The very best players, YES
The cost: $0.
Sounds like E-Sports is overcharging.
A little joking on that last line, but real sports are competition for E-Sports. And that competitor does all those things for your free viewing. (sarc)Somehow those real sports teams and leagues have managed to squeak by and stave off catastrophe. Some of their players can even manage to rent a one room apartment(/sarc).
As I was saying in my last post, the problem isn't the model, e-sports actually monetizes more than traditional sports, the problem is the viewer numbers.
And the viewer numbers are low because of the quality and formats of the shows. So tournaments need to think it through to make more people watch their adds. It's all about the rating.
Where did you get this from? If the viewers numbers are low that means the market isn't ready for it from the demanding side. If there are no strong demands you either need to generate them or pull out of this "market" which then isn't really one.
People are ready for starcraft, just that the format may be wrong. If a TV show doesn't get high ratings it's its fault and no others. Starcraft has great appeal.
? So the format in terms of stream? tournaments? And why are people ready for "starcraft"(i would rather stick to esports) when they don't watch it that much as u assumed. TV here is not even in FullHD, just blockbusters and stuff or you need to pay for it. So ... yea, same business modell and quality isn't it? People still watch TV.
I am saying that there is a market for esports that can get 100k views (for start) per tournament only if an event would be created in the right format.
The formats right now are too hardcore and not enough appeal for casuals. Also not enough females on camera (not jocking, remember IPL in the downtime?).
How do these supposedly free sports events on TV appeal to casuals hm? They don't. The whole women on camera thing is a marketing gimmick. No-one is going to watch MMA vs Nestea because some hot woman might be interviewing them. I would guarantee it. They are watching because MMA and Nestea are really fucking good or because its likely its in a final of a big event, like GSL or because their is a lot of money on the line.
Appealing to casuals is all well and good but at its heart SC2 is an RTS video game that requires certain basic knowledge and information to understand what is happening. While we have seen some anecdotal evidence that people who don't play at all watch, it isn't very many at all. The majority of ESPORTS viewers will more than likely always be people who playing the games in question. How did BW appeal to casuals?
Of course the women on camera are a marketing thing DUH. BW appealed to all sorts of people of all ages and sex. Look at a MLG crowd and it's a 15-30 sausage fest.
On February 09 2012 15:54 1sz2sz3sz wrote: I dont like how people think we`ll pay for everything
I dont pay for any tournaments because I dont care THAT much about a game to spend money to watch people play it. I also run adblocker.
Ill stick with my LQ streams and HQ restreams when available.
I also find it ridiculous GOM already charges out the ass for their subscription (20$ a month if you want to watch the dual stream when it used to be free for all LOL) while Koreans get to watch it for free (just adverts)
1/ Korea is a big lan, streaming there cost nothing for GOM 2/ GOM can actually put ads in their Korean stream, for major companies, or movies, or anything. And they do (during each break in our stream...they had stuff likes ads for the last Harry Poter movie, or for some new car, phone or computer)
That's why we get to pay and not them basically.
--
I forgot to add to my previous post that IPL is also making a damn good job, they improved so much between seasons that I consider buying their premium product.
I just dont feel esports will succeed in the west.
In Korea, you have the GSL Lasts 2 months. Everyday exposure for your advertisements X amount of prize money Costs teams absolutely nothing to participate because they live in Korea Up and coming talent every day, like Jjakji, goes from no-name to sudden GSL champion
Tournaments in the west Lasts 3-4 days max Limited advertisement exposure (I personally never visit IEMs or Dreamhacks website so whatevers on there I dont see since I watch off TL) Same prize money as GSL Costs teams THOUSANDS to fly their players around the world every other week to compete in tournaments Dead talent base, no up and comers. (I dont consider a mediocre MLG run ONCE an accomplishment), masters players losing to DRG even though hes playing with chopsticks, rubbergloves, a cast Relies on big names like Huk Idra etc to do well (what happens when they become a complete joke vs a korean, I guess theyd still have that 'star' level in the west)
Maybe tournaments should stop having 100k prizepool events every month if theyre not making enough money, there is so much going on in the starcraft community it isnt necessary, its kind of embarassing too when you see a tournament going on and then you see a streamer with the same amount or more viewer numbers.
I know Im not watching IEM until the finals because I dont know who 75% and personally only care about the matches with koreans in them
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I think there's this perception that companies are making money, but I doubt they are.
It's a tough spot. Monetize and people revolt and you die. Don't monetize and you slowly drown. I don't know how it's going to work. Maybe you have to completely level up the broadcast to a completely different place where people expect to pay for that quality? No idea.
Edit: No one seems to treat this as a business. There's a feeling things should be free because they want it to grow. Until we get past that and make it a business, it'll never be more than a niche market, which is fine, but it is what it is.
I think it's totally realistic for viewers to continue to get what they're already getting for free, but have the monetized portion of the event something that, if people want additional content, they can pay for it, kind of like one of those silly blu ray discs.
Like with MLG's lately. You get the main streams ezpz, but the quad view gold and w/e streams you have to pay for, so you can still see the main games that everyone gets hyped about, but the additional content is stuff like candid interviews and lower prestige open bracket rounds. If they had multiple streams, one devoted to interviews, several devoted to specific chunks of open brackets, etc, and whatever else you can think up, and charge viewers for THAT content, while just getting ad revenue from people that don't care as much, i think it works out fine.
They're not making money so you can't say it works out fine. Something's gotta give. Either more people need to pay (not happening) or fewer people need to pay more (unlikely) or the company just needs to die (terrible option).
I think the problem is these companies putting on the bigger events kept uncutting each other for whatever reason, giving more and more content away for free while improving their production values. The result is nobody except GOM (maybe) makes money. I think there's going to have to be a revolution where everyone moves to a more monetized model. Through this, the majority of the leagues are going to die. But maybe one will live and will finally be able to turn a profit.
Edit: The current system is amazing for viewers. But it isn't sustainable.
To people talking about "the end goal should be spreading ESPORTS"... You can't spread something if your company can only stay afloat for 3 years. The goal should be to create something sustainable at this level before looking to expand. We haven't gotten there yet.
On February 09 2012 23:23 bmml wrote: I think the only tourney I'd give money for currently is HSC, everything else pales in comparison to the entertainment value on offer from TakeTV.
And yet there was barely 1k people watching the HD stream at any time. Obviously not a completely reliable metric to gauge how many people bought premium but to be honest, its absolutely pathetic numbers, considering the money invested by TaKe in the whole endeavor.
If you start charging me to watch a Starcraft 2 tournament, you stop competing with other Starcraft 2 tournaments and start competing with other Pay Per View events and premium channels. If your tournament can compete with Floyd Mayweather fights, HBO shows, and UFC cards I'll buy it. But if what you show me is anything like what you have now, I'll get nearly as much entertainment watching a free ladder stream.
And I won't listen to any tournament organizer's promises about providing a quality product. You'll have to prove it before I pay. With the sole exception being if KESPA organizes a SC2 league.
On February 09 2012 23:31 -_- wrote: If you start charging me to watch a Starcraft 2 tournament, you stop competing with other Starcraft 2 tournaments and start competing with other Pay Per View events and premium channels. If your tournament can compete with Floyd Mayweather fights, HBO shows, and UFC cards I'll buy it. But if what you show me is anything like what you have now, I'll get nearly as much entertainment watching a free ladder stream.
And I won't listen to any tournament organizer's promises about providing a quality product. You'll have to prove it before I pay. With the sole exception being if KESPA organizes a SC2 league.
....you would have paid for the WCG quals and WCG finals?
I'd be alot more inclined to pay under a pay what you want model as opposed to a set price if MLG or IPL started charging 20-25 I'd just switch to a different tournament or streams but if they had a pay what you want model I could see myself giving them that much over the course of a year or a few months.
I think this community is spoiled in the sense that they've been given free stuff so far so they now expect it. But it's kind of pointless to argue against a PPV model if in fact the businesses involved in Esports will need it to stay afloat. If those businesses need it, they will eventually do it regardless of the level of complaining that goes on in forums. Pretending that you know which business model is best when you have no experience in Esports industry is just silly. Only the tournament organizers know, and like I said, they will switch to PPV if they need to. As they should.
Personally I think it's very reasonable to all tournaments to start charging for the HD live streams and HD VODs. GSL already does it, after all. We should appreciate the difficulty involved in producing a smooth 1080p stream with world-class players and casters by paying for it.
On February 09 2012 23:31 -_- wrote: If you start charging me to watch a Starcraft 2 tournament, you stop competing with other Starcraft 2 tournaments and start competing with other Pay Per View events and premium channels. If your tournament can compete with Floyd Mayweather fights, HBO shows, and UFC cards I'll buy it. But if what you show me is anything like what you have now, I'll get nearly as much entertainment watching a free ladder stream.
And I won't listen to any tournament organizer's promises about providing a quality product. You'll have to prove it before I pay. With the sole exception being if KESPA organizes a SC2 league.
....you would have paid for the WCG quals and WCG finals?
No, but if KESPA says: We are going to create a high quality SC2 league as an anlog to our SC ones, I would pay.
I have no problem wiht 'monetizing esports'. I just think that the business model Jerith proposes is ancient and dead. Other posters have put up facebook and google as examples of the new way, and I think its great.
vVv gaming can do whatever they want with their business, I just dont see that course of action being profitable for them.
As I was saying in my last post, the problem isn't the model, e-sports actually monetizes more than traditional sports, the problem is the viewer numbers.
...which is why a PPV model might be necessary. If there aren't enough viewers, then the ad model won't be sufficient. Professional sports on national TV have amazing viewer numbers and that's why they're able to offer everything for "free."
I went on a rant about this in a blog I did a few months back, but charging for streams would never work. It would decrease the audience dramatically because a huge percentage of the people that watch is teenagers who wouldn't pay several hours' work to watch other people play video games. On top of that, in the age of YouTube and torrenting, everyone expects this shit for free anyway. I'm not saying it's right, but that's the brutal truth of the situation, especially since we've been given so much for so little as a community already anyway. You can't just offer a premium service for no charge for several years then expect people to pay for it.
On February 09 2012 23:31 -_- wrote: If you start charging me to watch a Starcraft 2 tournament, you stop competing with other Starcraft 2 tournaments and start competing with other Pay Per View events and premium channels. If your tournament can compete with Floyd Mayweather fights, HBO shows, and UFC cards I'll buy it. But if what you show me is anything like what you have now, I'll get nearly as much entertainment watching a free ladder stream.
And I won't listen to any tournament organizer's promises about providing a quality product. You'll have to prove it before I pay. With the sole exception being if KESPA organizes a SC2 league.
....you would have paid for the WCG quals and WCG finals?
No, but if KESPA says: We are going to create a high quality SC2 league as an anlog to our SC ones, I would pay.
Fair enough. I hope KESPA does say this and soon. But its more likely they'll say it for LoL T_T
The only foreign tournament I would subscribe to would be IPL. Currently, no other league is putting out a quality product for me to want to pay for it. MLG, NASL, and IEM have a long ways to go before I would even consider buying a subscription based service from either of them.
On February 09 2012 23:36 Doodsmack wrote: I think this community is spoiled in the sense that they've been given free stuff so far so they now expect it. But it's kind of pointless to argue against a PPV model if in fact the businesses involved in Esports will need it to stay afloat. If those businesses need it, they will eventually do it regardless of the level of complaining that goes on in forums. Pretending that you know which business model is best when you have no experience in Esports industry is just silly. Only the tournament organizers know, and like I said, they will switch to PPV if they need to. As they should.
Well, the argument against it is that it might fail horribly and then they're dead sooner rather than later. There might be some compromise or hybrid that turns out better without putting people off. I truly believe it's impossible to consistently get money out of this demographic. Sure, a thousand people might step up for some small reddit event but that's nothing compared to what they need and it's not consistent. This is not the demographic that's used to paying for content, including UFC/boxing/WWE PPV channels. Maybe it's about disposal income, maybe not, but I just don't see it happening.
I'm not sure what the solution is though, but I think Chill's thoughts about the problem are right on the money.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free.
I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production.
Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have:
- Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players
On February 09 2012 23:36 Doodsmack wrote: I think this community is spoiled in the sense that they've been given free stuff so far so they now expect it. But it's kind of pointless to argue against a PPV model if in fact the businesses involved in Esports will need it to stay afloat. If those businesses need it, they will eventually do it regardless of the level of complaining that goes on in forums. Pretending that you know which business model is best when you have no experience in Esports industry is just silly. Only the tournament organizers know, and like I said, they will switch to PPV if they need to. As they should.
Personally I think it's very reasonable to all tournaments to start charging for the HD live streams and HD VODs. GSL already does it, after all. We should appreciate the difficulty involved in producing a smooth 1080p stream with world-class players and casters by paying for it.
Right know every big league does exactly this. The only exception is Dreamhack which has a free HD Stream.
Unfortunately I currently don't have a job so I couldn't even buy GSL this season, but I have paid for all previous seasons and once I get a job would gladly pay for every major tournament I watch. I also don't use adblocker cause I like to support the streams I watch, it's only fair and anyone who thinks it's not fair to watch a 30 second ad (even sometimes 3 in a row) which can be muted/minimized is just rude.
On February 09 2012 23:31 -_- wrote: If you start charging me to watch a Starcraft 2 tournament, you stop competing with other Starcraft 2 tournaments and start competing with other Pay Per View events and premium channels. If your tournament can compete with Floyd Mayweather fights, HBO shows, and UFC cards I'll buy it. But if what you show me is anything like what you have now, I'll get nearly as much entertainment watching a free ladder stream.
And I won't listen to any tournament organizer's promises about providing a quality product. You'll have to prove it before I pay. With the sole exception being if KESPA organizes a SC2 league.
....you would have paid for the WCG quals and WCG finals?
No, but if KESPA says: We are going to create a high quality SC2 league as an anlog to our SC ones, I would pay.
Fair enough. I hope KESPA does say this and soon. But its more likely they'll say it for LoL T_T
On February 09 2012 23:42 TBone- wrote: The only foreign tournament I would subscribe to would be IPL. Currently, no other league is putting out a quality product for me to want to pay for it. MLG, NASL, and IEM have a long ways to go before I would even consider buying a subscription based service from either of them.
Quite frankly, your standards are too high. Even community theaters have to charge money for tickets.
I have a feeling a large portion of the "produce better content and I'll pay" argument are people who simply won't pay if they can avoid it, much like piracy.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free.
I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production.
Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have:
- Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players
That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem.
My personal opinion on monetizing SC is that maybe we should utilize what led to the revival of e-sports, online streaming. Without question it is a much cheaper option and I am sure you can make a just as good of production as a major LAN tournament. I do believe their is a need for LANs but maybe instead of for example IEM holding a 6 LAN season or MLG holding a 5 LAN season start with the cheap internet option bring the top X players to a LAN site and hold a BIG ASS LAN (sounds like EVO now that I reread). When there is a way to profit off of a cheaper system then feel free to continue to have a larger season.
TLDR: Decrease Expenses instead of Increase Revenues while keeping production high or improving. Once you can find a way to profit on a smaller scale expand instead of trying to maintain an unsupportable system
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free.
I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production.
Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have:
- Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players
That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem.
And according to Mr.Bitter in this thread and others elsewhere, this is essentially what is happening.
On February 09 2012 23:42 TBone- wrote: The only foreign tournament I would subscribe to would be IPL. Currently, no other league is putting out a quality product for me to want to pay for it. MLG, NASL, and IEM have a long ways to go before I would even consider buying a subscription based service from either of them.
Quite frankly, your standards are too high. Even community theaters have to charge money for tickets.
I have a feeling a large portion of the "produce better content and I'll pay" argument are people who simply won't pay if they can avoid it, much like piracy.
I pay 10$ per month for 100 cable channels. Why should I pay 25$ for a weekend of semi - professional streaming?
Simply due to the physical demands of the sport, MMA content (the matches) are much rarer and more unique than a Starcraft match. I might get to see a world class fighter like Anderson Silva every six months, and that's being optimistic. I love the UFC and I can't afford to miss a great fighter's sole appearance in 6 months, so I buy their PPVs religiously. If that was the case for players like MVP, MMA, DRG, Leenock, etc, I could understand a similar model. As it stands though, I don't think SC2 content is unique enough to look at a boxing or MMA model. It's more similar to professional football, where you can see amazing players like Leo Messi or Robin Van Persie compete on an almost weekly basis. I only know sports with such regular appearances as either free, or monthly subscription models.
If a PPV model did happen to be implemented in Starcraft II, fewer people would watch events, and undoubtedly the overall size of the scene would shrink. For sports in general, even in the case of MMA, I don't think PPV is a model you want to stay with forever. In fact, I think going from free to watch to PPV actually represents a step back. Looking at the UFC again, they were PPV during the years they were developing and growing, but now that the MMA is blowing up, they are trying to get on cable and network television where people can watch for free. Any sport that is able to be profitable without a PPV model prefers to be free.
It's understandable that organizations are looking to PPV as a revenue model, but I don't think it's one that works with Starcraft. Nonetheless it is important for organizations to explore all available options at some point.
My genuine opinion is the vast majority of people following starcraft are too spoiled and entitled. Follow that up with that they'll take that attitude and throw a shit-fit whenever they don't get EXACTLY what they want in terms of casters, players, any delays ever (none of which is even realistic), and we have a community that I think is just going to strangle itself if company's running events actually listen to all the entitled assholes.
I'm not sure what the solution is. They need to make a profit to keep going. I don't think trying to force PPV is a good idea at all. Even if it's a PPV with a free option that's bad. But there need to be alternative ways than just PPV. More sponsors, etc...Idk.
I used to be very afraid of what SC2 with Kespa coming in would look like; I'm starting to think it might be the only thing that saves it from a short life.
The main problem right now is the scene is heavily oversaturated. There are a huge number of players and a huge number of tournaments relative to the size and money-making potential of the viewership pool.
I believe the cold, hard, and ugly truth is that to reach a sustainable level, a large part of the current scene will have to die off. Even if E-sports as a whole grows, I don't really see SC2 as a growth industry (in terms of viewership) itself, just because the game is relatively complex and not very easy to digest if you are a first-time viewer with no background in SC, SC2 or RTSes. SC2 is too niche, too small to be supported by ad revenue.
In addition, there is a fundamental oversaturation of content. There are too many tournaments, too many streams and probably too many casters and players. There is more content out there than there are hours in the day for anyone to view. Segmenting an already small market as tournaments try to one-up each other in providing quality content at the lowest cost will eventually drive some of them out of the business, it is inevitable. The ones that survive, either because they have deeper pockets or found a way to make it work, will then be able to capture the remaining market share. No one is profitable because the pie is too small, and is broken up among too many different organizations.
Sure, the total pie will shrink if some of this content goes away, but the rest of the (small) scene will then standardize on what's left, and I think the scene overall will be much healthier when the oversaturation ends. Some organizations will have to stop and/or fail, the question is which ones will.
I'm guessing the GOM right now is probably the most successful of all of the SC2 tournament organizations. The pay-wall model for VODs and HQ stream works reasonably well, and they provide the highest level of content and the highest production values. It's very difficult for other productions to compete with GOM from a technical standpoint, and that is why they are searching for other business models. Other tournaments may boast viewership numbers, but without a way to turn that into money, they cannot continue to operate. I don't see how they can convert viewership numbers into cash. There simply aren't enough viewers for advertising to be meaningful, not to mention that the e-sport scene is more likely to be a tech-savvy scene, which means a larger number of people using ad-blocking technology and the like. As others mentioned, there are many poor people who either will view it for free (to them) or die. These people cannot be turned into money, cannot really help the scene grow (you can try to argue they will attract new viewers, but will they really in a scene as niche as this?), and are therefore more or less irrelevant to turning this into a sustainable business. If that is the majority of the people who watch, then the scene is in reality already on life-support.
MrBitter noted that GOM is likely walking on a very, very fine line also. If they can barely make it where they are, I think people have greatly overestimating the potential market. Consolidation will occur, tournaments will fail, teams will disband, players and support staff like casters will move on. The survivors may be able to make a razor thin ROI, but it will still be very, very tough, and in the long run, there will likely only be one or two tournaments with good content and good production values that will survive by doing three things simultaneously: generating ad revenue, earning subscription fees, selling merchandise.
Edit: In response to Nazgul, I believe that's correct. Everyone wants to go free-to-watch with primarily ad revenue driven support. The problem is, you need significant viewership (millions of people) to make that model work, and I don't see SC2 getting there, even with the explosive growth it's had recently, even if you provide production quality that is better than anything else available worldwide.
On February 09 2012 23:42 TBone- wrote: The only foreign tournament I would subscribe to would be IPL. Currently, no other league is putting out a quality product for me to want to pay for it. MLG, NASL, and IEM have a long ways to go before I would even consider buying a subscription based service from either of them.
Quite frankly, your standards are too high. Even community theaters have to charge money for tickets.
I have a feeling a large portion of the "produce better content and I'll pay" argument are people who simply won't pay if they can avoid it, much like piracy.
I pay 10$ per month for 100 cable channels. Why should I pay 25$ for a weekend of semi - professional streaming?
Because comparing cable TV to esports streaming is absurd.
On February 09 2012 23:42 TBone- wrote: The only foreign tournament I would subscribe to would be IPL. Currently, no other league is putting out a quality product for me to want to pay for it. MLG, NASL, and IEM have a long ways to go before I would even consider buying a subscription based service from either of them.
Quite frankly, your standards are too high. Even community theaters have to charge money for tickets.
I have a feeling a large portion of the "produce better content and I'll pay" argument are people who simply won't pay if they can avoid it, much like piracy.
I pay 10$ per month for 100 cable channels. Why should I pay 25$ for a weekend of semi - professional streaming?
It depends what you're used to. What do pay per view events cost in Romania? In the US, major boxing matches and fights are usually like $40 just for that night. That's the PPV model they're talking about.
On February 09 2012 23:42 TBone- wrote: The only foreign tournament I would subscribe to would be IPL. Currently, no other league is putting out a quality product for me to want to pay for it. MLG, NASL, and IEM have a long ways to go before I would even consider buying a subscription based service from either of them.
Quite frankly, your standards are too high. Even community theaters have to charge money for tickets.
I have a feeling a large portion of the "produce better content and I'll pay" argument are people who simply won't pay if they can avoid it, much like piracy.
I pay 10$ per month for 100 cable channels. Why should I pay 25$ for a weekend of semi - professional streaming?
It depends what you're used to. What do pay per view events cost in Romania? In the US, major boxing matches and fights are usually like $40 just for that night. That's the PPV model they're talking about.
Yeah but it's not like tournaments are something that happen once over 6 months. If it's not rare it can't worth that much.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free.
I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production.
Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have:
- Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players
That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem.
So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free.
I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production.
Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have:
- Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players
That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem.
So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity.
I have bought 90% of the tickets for the tournaments since starcraft 2 appeared. My sole feeling when paying is that i give them money to make something happen later, rather than I pay to be entrained right now. So I feel more like I am donating. Someone who is not a fan might not like to give money out of love. They might actually want something back.
SC2 needs actual legitimate sponsors. I don't even know who sponsors most SC2 teams, but if that level was actually acceptable Jaedong wouldn't be looking so troubled these days.
On February 09 2012 23:42 TBone- wrote: The only foreign tournament I would subscribe to would be IPL. Currently, no other league is putting out a quality product for me to want to pay for it. MLG, NASL, and IEM have a long ways to go before I would even consider buying a subscription based service from either of them.
Quite frankly, your standards are too high. Even community theaters have to charge money for tickets.
I have a feeling a large portion of the "produce better content and I'll pay" argument are people who simply won't pay if they can avoid it, much like piracy.
I pay 10$ per month for 100 cable channels. Why should I pay 25$ for a weekend of semi - professional streaming?
It depends what you're used to. What do pay per view events cost in Romania? In the US, major boxing matches and fights are usually like $40 just for that night. That's the PPV model they're talking about.
Yeah but it's not like tournaments are something that happen once over 6 months. If it's not rare it can't worth that much.
I agree, there's an oversaturation of events that undercut each other. I'm just saying that it's not sustainable to put on a show for free, even if the production standards aren't with WCG. If MLG and others aren't high enough for you, then there's probably nothing you'll pay for. MLG's ticket system is probably the cheapest per event, with relatively high quality, and it doesn't seem like they're doing too well.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free.
I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production.
Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have:
- Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players
That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem.
So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity.
I have bought 90% of the tickets for the tournaments since starcraft 2 appeared. My sole feeling when paying is that i give them money to make something happen later, rather than I pay to be entrained right now. So I feel more like I am donating. Someone who is not a fan might not like to give money out of love. They might actually want something back.
I don't know man. I'm a fan and I still want something back. I'm German and I pay for the German Bundesliga pay-TV channel. I'm a MASSIVE fan but if they would produce shitty content I would cancel my subscription.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free.
I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production.
Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have:
- Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players
That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem.
So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity.
Exatcly, thats how ESPORTS operate right now. Its not the matter of production, its the matter of game, its niche product, if you throw world event money for niche product you will end up in deficit. What you need is increasing popularity of sport/game, not better production. I mean the better production will only appeal to few spectators while better game (spectator wise) will appear to whole.
Thats why sooner or later LoL and other mobas will overrun the market, not because of tournament production values.
Blizzard doesnt seem to be pressured, its sad. Their 5 cents are worth more than tournaments 500dollars.
On February 09 2012 23:23 bmml wrote: I think the only tourney I'd give money for currently is HSC, everything else pales in comparison to the entertainment value on offer from TakeTV.
I would probably pay some for dreamhack as well personally. Or any event as well produced and entertaining as the dreamhack invitational(and hsc of course). But if I had to guess dreamhack isn't losing money on their events anyway.
People talk a lot about HD this and that but almost no one seem to talk about the entertainment value. Take last NASL or some of the MLG's with tons of downtime with absolutely nothing going on. I know people that watch sc2 basically every single day that usually quit watching those events after just a couple of games. Think they will get a thousands and thousands of ppv viewers when big parts of the events can be so boring that people that watch more sc2 than tv don't watch when it's free?
On February 09 2012 23:42 TBone- wrote: The only foreign tournament I would subscribe to would be IPL. Currently, no other league is putting out a quality product for me to want to pay for it. MLG, NASL, and IEM have a long ways to go before I would even consider buying a subscription based service from either of them.
Quite frankly, your standards are too high. Even community theaters have to charge money for tickets.
I have a feeling a large portion of the "produce better content and I'll pay" argument are people who simply won't pay if they can avoid it, much like piracy.
I pay 10$ per month for 100 cable channels. Why should I pay 25$ for a weekend of semi - professional streaming?
It depends what you're used to. What do pay per view events cost in Romania? In the US, major boxing matches and fights are usually like $40 just for that night. That's the PPV model they're talking about.
Yeah but it's not like tournaments are something that happen once over 6 months. If it's not rare it can't worth that much.
I agree, there's an oversaturation of events that undercut each other. I'm just saying that it's not sustainable to put on a show for free, even if the production standards aren't with WCG. If MLG and others aren't high enough for you, then there's probably nothing you'll pay for. MLG's ticket system is probably the cheapest per event, with relatively high quality, and it doesn't seem like they're doing too well.
Many people can't watch 3 days of starcraft and consider it's not worth it to pay it all if they can watch it in between activities. Maybe if schedules were respected more often people would know when to tune in for their favorite player in a 3 day tournament and would be willing to pay for a HD ticket.
Also when you see down time and unplanned situations that are poorly handled it's kinda of a turn off. Remember NASL first season. 100k prize pool are you kidding me? In situations like that it's the companies fault for bad management.
MLG is getting up there with the production quality but GOM has the lead by far.
On February 09 2012 23:42 TBone- wrote: The only foreign tournament I would subscribe to would be IPL. Currently, no other league is putting out a quality product for me to want to pay for it. MLG, NASL, and IEM have a long ways to go before I would even consider buying a subscription based service from either of them.
Quite frankly, your standards are too high. Even community theaters have to charge money for tickets.
I have a feeling a large portion of the "produce better content and I'll pay" argument are people who simply won't pay if they can avoid it, much like piracy.
I pay 10$ per month for 100 cable channels. Why should I pay 25$ for a weekend of semi - professional streaming?
It depends what you're used to. What do pay per view events cost in Romania? In the US, major boxing matches and fights are usually like $40 just for that night. That's the PPV model they're talking about.
Yeah but it's not like tournaments are something that happen once over 6 months. If it's not rare it can't worth that much.
I agree, there's an oversaturation of events that undercut each other. I'm just saying that it's not sustainable to put on a show for free, even if the production standards aren't with WCG. If MLG and others aren't high enough for you, then there's probably nothing you'll pay for. MLG's ticket system is probably the cheapest per event, with relatively high quality, and it doesn't seem like they're doing too well.
Many people can't watch 3 days of starcraft and consider it's not worth it to pay it all if they can watch it in between activities. Maybe if schedules were respected more often people would know when to tune in for their favorite player in a 3 day tournament and would be willing to pay for a HD ticket.
Also when you see down time and unplanned situations that are poorly handled it's kinda of a turn off. Remember NASL first season. 100k prize pool are you kidding me? In situations like that it's the companies fault for bad management.
MLG is getting up there with the production quality but GOM has the lead by far.
NASL was out of their mind as an unproven tournament to try something so big without any proven value.As I said before instead of trying to start BIG and then make adjustments to increase $. Why don't people just start with a respectable AFFORDABLE prize pool and other costs then expand as they find they can support bigger and better things. And yes oversaturation is obviously a problem but eventually the cream will rise to the top because they hold up longer and then the crap will get flushed and it will self correct. How long will that take? Maybe years
On February 09 2012 23:42 TBone- wrote: The only foreign tournament I would subscribe to would be IPL. Currently, no other league is putting out a quality product for me to want to pay for it. MLG, NASL, and IEM have a long ways to go before I would even consider buying a subscription based service from either of them.
Quite frankly, your standards are too high. Even community theaters have to charge money for tickets.
I have a feeling a large portion of the "produce better content and I'll pay" argument are people who simply won't pay if they can avoid it, much like piracy.
I pay 10$ per month for 100 cable channels. Why should I pay 25$ for a weekend of semi - professional streaming?
It depends what you're used to. What do pay per view events cost in Romania? In the US, major boxing matches and fights are usually like $40 just for that night. That's the PPV model they're talking about.
Yeah but it's not like tournaments are something that happen once over 6 months. If it's not rare it can't worth that much.
I agree, there's an oversaturation of events that undercut each other. I'm just saying that it's not sustainable to put on a show for free, even if the production standards aren't with WCG. If MLG and others aren't high enough for you, then there's probably nothing you'll pay for. MLG's ticket system is probably the cheapest per event, with relatively high quality, and it doesn't seem like they're doing too well.
This is one thing that bothers me about this whole thread: if production costs are so high and return on those costs is so low - why is so much content being provided? Why are there so many leagues?
Player streaming is certainly one thing that isn't helping. I think a lot fewer people would pay to watch an official league baseball game if they could watch their team play for free in a non-official scrimmage instead.
Edit: it may come down to a lot of leagues dying off before people come around to the idea of paying for broadcasts - and by then it won't be because they like this league or that league the most - it'll be because they don't want all the events to die.
As I was saying in my last post, the problem isn't the model, e-sports actually monetizes more than traditional sports, the problem is the viewer numbers.
...which is why a PPV model might be necessary. If there aren't enough viewers, then the ad model won't be sufficient. Professional sports on national TV have amazing viewer numbers and that's why they're able to offer everything for "free."
This exactly.
There is a pool of around 100K people who tune in to MLG / GOMTV / IPL right now. The ad revenue for that kind of base is not nearly as robust as you might think. Where this becomes problematic is that there are major economy of scale problems we run into for these organizations. There are certain fixed costs, and cost thresholds that exist for any production, regardless of size. Just because 1/30th (not a real number) of the people are watching an MLG then are watching, say, an NBA game, there is not necessarily 1/30th the cost. They both need a certain amount of support staff, for example, to provide a professional production. But you can't just pay the MLG producer 1/30th of what you pay an NBA producer, there is a certain minimum amount needed. (If you want a professional at least, and from what I have read here that is the quality that people are asking for.)
The point is, that while the cost is certainly lower to run a smaller event vs. a larger one, the reduction in cost based on size is not 1:1. That is why when you are on the smaller end of the continuum, as Starcraft is, there needs to be a slightly higher "revenue per viewer" rate to get to a sustainable level.
For example, I worry about IPL the most. I think that is the organization that gets the least amount of recognition relative to the amount they are investing into prodividing SC2 content. They have 4 casters on staff right now, they are running Team Arena's, and their live events (at least IPL3) attempt to really achieve a high level of quality / prize pool. When are they going to start making money? I guarantee you the 60K people watching IPL3 finals does not nearly cover the prize pool, much less the other fixed costs associated with it. As far as I am concerned, they are running an SC2 charity over there.
And lets take GOMTV ,the flagship. How much money, exactly, do you think a product like Hot6ix is shelling out to sponsor that organization? Enough to cover the Code S & A prize pools, studio rent, broadcast infrastruture, and paying the casters? As has been pointed out before, even with sponsorships and subscription rates, I would be shocked if GOMTV has anything more then a razer thin profit. My guess is they are banking on future revenue growth to make up for any thin (and possibly negative) margin they have now.
Right now, most of these organizations are running "loss leader" models, where they are not making money now, on the hope that they will make money in the future. It isn't a question of growing esports, it is a question of if the things we enjoy can even stick around.
I think Mr. Bitter's post hit the nail on the head. PPV is an idea, and I would support it... but it is possible that the community will just not go for it. But that means that as a community we need to be aware that there is a chance that we can't keep having the level of content that we have today. It isn't a question of "growing" esports, its a question of keeping what we have today.
tl dr: I think MLG / IPL / GOMTV are awesome products, and I love that they are out there providing me things I enjoy watching. I hope we can find a way to make them financially viable on a long term basis.
One of the reasons why most sports are "free" on TV is because the channel that shows the sport pays the sport for the rights to broadcast it. In the UK the FA (football association) doesn't have to pay for any of the equipment used to broadcast the games, its all paid for by Sky/BBC/ITV or whomever is showing the game. The cameras, cameramen, commentators, pundits, production staff, everything is paid for by the companies who have bought the rights to broadcast.
One exception to this model I would guess is UFC/WWE whom run production themselves (I know for sure WWE do, UFC probably hire a company) and that is why their big events are PPV. In the UK about half the WWE PPV's aren't actually PPV, they are on Sky, whom pay a butt ton of money to have them for free.
If I could pay £5-10 per month and that got me every single SC2 tourney, save for big big events, like I can with Sky Sports then I would jump at it. however if I have to start paying £5-10 for each individual tourney then I will have to choose which ones I want to watch. We aren't at a point where tourneys can go PPV only yet, there isn't a big enough market. HD should be paid only, for all tourneys, but up to 480p should be free, defo up to 360p.
Well I'm not on team esports, If they want to charge for content I'd probably restrict my viewing to a few events/leagues but that's alright i feel there's too much stuff going on in sc2 as it is anyway i can't wait for a few leagues to go away so i can keep track of all the important games
On February 10 2012 00:28 1sz2sz3sz wrote: When GOMtv got hacked last year their numbers were release they had earned something like $1.4million in subscriptions that year or something
On February 10 2012 00:30 nttea wrote: Well I'm not on team esports, If they want to charge for content I'd probably restrict my viewing to a few events/leagues but that's alright i feel there's too much stuff going on in sc2 as it is anyway i can't wait for a few leagues to go away so i can keep track of all the important games
On February 10 2012 00:28 1sz2sz3sz wrote: When GOMtv got hacked last year their numbers were release they had earned something like $1.4million in subscriptions that year or something
source?
Cant be bothered digging but there were pictures released which had numbers as well as account logins
On February 10 2012 00:30 emythrel wrote: One of the reasons why most sports are "free" on TV is because the channel that shows the sport pays the sport for the rights to broadcast it. In the UK the FA (football association) doesn't have to pay for any of the equipment used to broadcast the games, its all paid for by Sky/BBC/ITV or whomever is showing the game. The cameras, cameramen, commentators, pundits, production staff, everything is paid for by the companies who have bought the rights to broadcast.
One exception to this model I would guess is UFC/WWE whom run production themselves (I know for sure WWE do, UFC probably hire a company) and that is why their big events are PPV. In the UK about half the WWE PPV's aren't actually PPV, they are on Sky, whom pay a butt ton of money to have them for free.
If I could pay £5-10 per month and that got me every single SC2 tourney, save for big big events, like I can with Sky Sports then I would jump at it. however if I have to start paying £5-10 for each individual tourney then I will have to choose which ones I want to watch. We aren't at a point where tourneys can go PPV only yet, there isn't a big enough market. HD should be paid only, for all tourneys, but up to 480p should be free, defo up to 360p.
I would love it if the big companies would team up and create an international 24h non stop StarCraft stream. I would pay 25$ per month to subscribe to that StarCraft Channel. Move all the big shows there (all major tournaments, Day9 daily, SOTG etc).
And for a league to enter that channel they need to fit a certain standard.
On February 09 2012 22:55 hashaki wrote: Why hasn't any tournament tried doing a "pay what you want"-model yet? Or maybe someone has, but I can't recall it happened.
Speed Demos Archive, the home to video game speed runs, is proud to present a special speed running marathon: Awesome Games Done Quick, a 6-day online event played to raise money for cancer prevention and streamed live for you to watch!
The marathon has finished, and over $149,000 was successfully raised for the Prevent Cancer Foundation, our partner for this event. We deeply appreciate everyone who donated, watched, or helped out in any way!
Ok, so that was for a charity event which might have been an extra incentive for people to donate, but that was simply from donations watching gamers do speedruns of games, some of them very odd and unheard of.
But there are other methods to be explored for making money than jumping straight to "ok, now you gotta pay to watch our tournament". This being the internet and all (where so much content is free and has been for a long time) a PPV model or any forced payment for streams should be a last resort imo.
I watched almost all of the AGDQ, an event I had never heard of until a day or two before it happened, and I even donated $15(though I'm a very broke college student). I enjoyed the event so much that $15 was worth it to me. I was only going to do 10, but Flicky convinced me cause I wanted a rant, so I manned up and put up 5 more dollars x.x
Pay as you please can totally work, but I don't think it's a very sustainable business model. At all. The major problem with events outside of Korea is that, because of the logistics, it is hard to make a league or a model like a major sport. UFC and other PPV events are occasional because of this (and many have argued that UFC has saturated the market by having too many cards and that they're not all worth the $45 asking price). The only league I currently pay for atm is GSL. Great production value, lots of content that comes out at the perfect pace, and the best players and casters. I don't want to pay for an MLG because I honestly can't watch Sc2 for 3 days straight. Same with Dreamhack and IEM and the rest. NASL had very poor production values and their VOD system (at least for season 1) was hosted on Justintv... That's just not acceptable.
I pay the GSL because the cost matches the value. If leagues can't lower their costs to match the value of the event, then their business model is not meant to work and they will fail. I'm not saying I want them too, but the onus is on them to make it worthwhile to their audience.
Imagine that almost all problems could be solved with 2 millions(random big number) of chinese/asian fans tuning to watch some IEM. I think thats where problem lies, in our western life its pretty hard to captivate a normal young person during their daily life, but asian countries seems like a place to grow esports, or to sustain it (BW story).
And this is why i called blizzard in earlier post, post-mortem fixes like organizing a shiny tournament in china will not help much to grow a base of players, the game is pretty hard to reach for standard Chinese person. Production values will go as far as it can go, and the downside of overblown production values compared to product will be that certain ammount of people will watch only "best" tournaments, with best values because of those values not product. You will never reach to average people with it, there is no other way than to make the game more accesible. Hope that changes in Hots, the UI is just a tip of an iceberg.
I know this thread is about monetazing esport, but its sad that tournaments/sponsors has to pay their toll for low casual player base / no asia.
Production values should be decent, but overblown production values are inefficient attraction long-term. And we shouldnt pay double money for it.
On February 09 2012 22:55 hashaki wrote: Why hasn't any tournament tried doing a "pay what you want"-model yet? Or maybe someone has, but I can't recall it happened.
Speed Demos Archive, the home to video game speed runs, is proud to present a special speed running marathon: Awesome Games Done Quick, a 6-day online event played to raise money for cancer prevention and streamed live for you to watch!
The marathon has finished, and over $149,000 was successfully raised for the Prevent Cancer Foundation, our partner for this event. We deeply appreciate everyone who donated, watched, or helped out in any way!
Ok, so that was for a charity event which might have been an extra incentive for people to donate, but that was simply from donations watching gamers do speedruns of games, some of them very odd and unheard of.
But there are other methods to be explored for making money than jumping straight to "ok, now you gotta pay to watch our tournament". This being the internet and all (where so much content is free and has been for a long time) a PPV model or any forced payment for streams should be a last resort imo.
I watched almost all of the AGDQ, an event I had never heard of until a day or two before it happened, and I even donated $15(though I'm a very broke college student). I enjoyed the event so much that $15 was worth it to me. I was only going to do 10, but Flicky convinced me cause I wanted a rant, so I manned up and put up 5 more dollars x.x
Pay as you please can totally work, but I don't think it's a very sustainable business model. At all. The major problem with events outside of Korea is that, because of the logistics, it is hard to make a league or a model like a major sport. UFC and other PPV events are occasional because of this (and many have argued that UFC has saturated the market by having too many cards and that they're not all worth the $45 asking price). The only league I currently pay for atm is GSL. Great production value, lots of content that comes out at the perfect pace, and the best players and casters. I don't want to pay for an MLG because I honestly can't watch Sc2 for 3 days straight. Same with Dreamhack and IEM and the rest. NASL had very poor production values and their VOD system (at least for season 1) was hosted on Justintv... That's just not acceptable.
I pay the GSL because the cost matches the value. If leagues can't lower their costs to match the value of the event, then their business model is not meant to work and they will fail. I'm not saying I want them too, but the onus is on them to make it worthwhile to their audience.
This post describes something called capitalism. Let the market set the price based on an item's value.If any business sets their price too high (Netflix) their will be backlash. If you add a cost make sure the consumers can see the value of the added cost. If you have to add a cost to something that is free make sure you calculate that it is worth the backlash to lose fans/viewers its just a fact of business. Basically if a tournament wants to make you pay to watch the previously free stuff their better be an increased value.
On February 09 2012 23:36 Equity213 wrote: I have no problem wiht 'monetizing esports'. I just think that the business model Jerith proposes is ancient and dead. Other posters have put up facebook and google as examples of the new way, and I think its great.
vVv gaming can do whatever they want with their business, I just dont see that course of action being profitable for them.
Are you kidding? Microtransactions have been the way of the future for years now, expect it to come. There will be a day in the next 20 years when the concept of "buying a DVD movie" or whatever equivalent media is around will be foreign and strange. Why would you buy a movie? You just pay for it once to be streamed to your "device X".
Free and ad-funded models only work for things like google and facebook that get more views per day than there are people on the planet.
Although I would have a bigger hole in my wallet I do agree that E-Sports needs to find a way to do more in monetizing itself. Quite frankly things just look so uncertain for the future of E-Sports with the way things are going. I want there to be a time where players are given salaries, viewers are willing to shelve out good money to watch tournaments, and Foreign teams to really prosper. Hell even the Korean teams don't make a whole lot of money unless you're 1 of 2 or 3 certain people.
On February 10 2012 00:28 1sz2sz3sz wrote: When GOMtv got hacked last year their numbers were release they had earned something like $1.4million in subscriptions that year or something
Even if they made $1.4 million, that doesn't mean $1.4 million PROFIT
I think Chill is right when he says that people have grown to used to this charity model where theres so much content for free.
This thread seems to be a lot of people that demand free content, demand growth of the community and tournaments, want higher prize pools and want to see premium players with high quality production, and are throwing numbers and stats around with little true knowledge of whats going on behind the scenes, assuming that ads will just pay for it...
I really hate to be "that guy" and start bashing people, but a lot of the SC2 community has been way too spoiled with what they get. It seems that a lot of people think that all these production companies are basking in wealth and trying to scalp every customer they can for every dollar possible, but the truth of the matter is, businesses can only lose money or break even for so long before they call it quits and pack it in.
A lot of people hear the word Monetizing and immediately scream betrayal and backstab, that's fine, keep believing that but just don't be surprised when slowly over the years, content becomes less and less, and esports becomes a fad that a small group of people think back and reminisce about. This business model we have right now just doesn't last forever.
Anyone that argues that NBA or NFL is free, well... Do you pay for cable or satellite? Then you pay for channels, and channels pay for broadcasting rights.
The idea that anything is free is absurd, but so many people in this community want to have their cake and eat it too. Pony up and support the products you enjoy, and growth will occur. Bottom line is, if you don't want or care about growth of esports and just want to enjoy it as is, keep doing what you're doing, it won't last forever.
(Just as a side note, im not accusing everyone of never paying a dime for anything ever, and this problem isn't exclusive to the SC2 community either)
1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free.
I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production.
Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have:
- Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players
That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem.
So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity.
I think the following happened: - A few companies started up first and got incredible attention. - Slowly, more events and companies started up and the scene got oversaturated. - Call it lost leader or bad business, the competition got so fierce that events started undercutting each other. - Now every event and company offers more value than money they can generate.
The result is that companies are giving away a lot of content. People are used to paying a small amount for this content, and are actually demanding more content for their money.
I don't think the industry is pointing to a charity model, I think everything got fucked up and people have this vision that GOM and MLG and IPL are making good money. Therefore, they feel justified in demanding $50 worth of content for a $10 payment. And because of bad business, if one company doesn't give it to them, 2 others will come along and give it to them. That means they look like heroes for a week, until everyone forgets and that becomes the new standard and now everyone is losing even more money. Hooray!
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I think there's this perception that companies are making money, but I doubt they are.
It's a tough spot. Monetize and people revolt and you die. Don't monetize and you slowly drown. I don't know how it's going to work. Maybe you have to completely level up the broadcast to a completely different place where people expect to pay for that quality? No idea.
Edit: No one seems to treat this as a business. There's a feeling things should be free because they want it to grow. Until we get past that and make it a business, it'll never be more than a niche market, which is fine, but it is what it is.
western starcraft will never become a business if the primary viewerbase consists of people watching from home, which i strongly suspect is the case. people will say, oh, mlg orlando or whatever has a huge audience...well, huge is relative, and a tiny proportion of the market would actually travel all the way to orlando to watch the event live. it's hard to charge "live" fees that way.
the korean model is very different and very effective as a business. seoul/pusan is very densely populated, traveling to live events is usually feasible, and the big events themselves are concert-like. therefore they draw huge crowds who support their favourite player (cough bisu) - ever wonder why there are so many girls?
my honest feeling is that the western starcraft scene should remain mostly as a charity as it is. number 1, the skill level is quite abysmal in comparison (either that, or the korean guy is gonna win), and number 2, the scene is oversaturated atm. Even the GSL has become quite passe/flavour of the month right now, while we had to wait several months for the next starleague finals.
I don't think someone with this kind of attitude and anger management skills should be given too much attention, especially because I think he misses two big points. First as he clearly stated himself the audience of sc2 is made up mostly by kids and college students who do not have the means to spend an extra amount of money each month for stuff they do not really need. Second this kind of audience seems to be the main target for advertising companies because they are young. So why produce content that is free for consumers but can be sold as a business model to all kinds of firms who want to advertise to this young crowd? So I think that is exactly what is happening right now and it has gotten esports a long way the last few years.Why would you want to change that unless there is huge gain for yourself.
To add to the complication, while I think people need to pay more for content, I can tell you surely that if IPL or MLG went to a PPV model I would not pay. So I personally fit into exactly what I'm describing as the problem.
Also, when GSL was the only show in town I paid for every season and watched it religiously. Now that there are so many big ticket events, I pay for a few GOM events (far fewer than before) and typically watch Ro4 only.
I really think we would do well to have one western event elevated above the rest, and the rest be viewed as more of a minor ciruit. The problem is that everyone is trying to be the NBA right now and no one is willing to be the NCAA because we have 10,000 high school leagues all trying to do that too.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free.
I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production.
Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have:
- Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players
That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem.
So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity.
I think the following happened: - A few companies started up first and got incredible attention. - Slowly, more events and companies started up and the scene got oversaturated. - Call it lost leader or bad business, the competition got so fierce that events started undercutting each other. - Now every event and company offers more value than money they can generate.
The result is that companies are giving away a lot of content. People are used to paying a small amount for this content, and are actually demanding more content for their money.
I don't think the industry is pointing to a charity model, I think everything got fucked up and people have this vision that GOM and MLG and IPL are making good money. Therefore, they feel justified in demanding $50 worth of content for a $10 payment. And because of bad business, if one company doesn't give it to them, 2 others will come along and give it to them. That means they look like heroes for a week, until everyone forgets and that becomes the new standard and now everyone is losing even more money. Hooray!
I don't have a solution.
I agree with this. Bad business is still the norm in e-sports, not in an ethics way but in a spending way. Spending way too much on things they have no business supporting. If MLG and IPL expected to go to a PPV model when they made their business model that was a horrid decision with 0 proof that this model actually could be successful over the long term And running a business on an unsound model and will lead to another downfall or necesary consolidation in the industry.
[Right now, most of these organizations are running "loss leader" models, where they are not making money now, on the hope that they will make money in the future. It isn't a question of growing esports, it is a question of if the things we enjoy can even stick around.
I think Mr. Bitter's post hit the nail on the head. PPV is an idea, and I would support it... but it is possible that the community will just not go for it. But that means that as a community we need to be aware that there is a chance that we can't keep having the level of content that we have today. It isn't a question of "growing" esports, its a question of keeping what we have today.
tl dr: I think MLG / IPL / GOMTV are awesome products, and I love that they are out there providing me things I enjoy watching. I hope we can find a way to make them financially viable on a long term basis.
I am glad that this rant spurred so much discussion. I also agree with Mr. Bitter's post, a realistic view of the situation.
eSports is too small for ad revenue alone to sustain it. First, we must figure out what people will pay for it, then we need to see if we can make it/market it/sell it profitably. If MLG (for example) can't maintain margin with what their customers will spend (i.e., eSports fans), then they need to stop.
As Peter Drucker said, "Wherever you see a successful business, someone once made a courageous decision." I think it's time for someone to make courageous decisions.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free.
I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production.
Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have:
- Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players
That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem.
So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity.
I think the following happened: - A few companies started up first and got incredible attention. - Slowly, more events and companies started up and the scene got oversaturated. - Call it lost leader or bad business, the competition got so fierce that events started undercutting each other. - Now every event and company offers more value than money they can generate.
The result is that companies are giving away a lot of content. People are used to paying a small amount for this content, and are actually demanding more content for their money.
I don't think the industry is pointing to a charity model, I think everything got fucked up and people have this vision that GOM and MLG and IPL are making good money. Therefore, they feel justified in demanding $50 worth of content for a $10 payment. And because of bad business, if one company doesn't give it to them, 2 others will come along and give it to them. That means they look like heroes for a week, until everyone forgets and that becomes the new standard and now everyone is losing even more money. Hooray!
I don't have a solution.
I think the GSL is already solving a lot of the problems without resorting to undercutting and charity.
They were the first big prize, top quality tournament, they marketed it well, and put out a ton of content and gained huge viewership within the first full year of SC2.
They've now recognized the oversaturation of content, and slowed down how quickly the pump it out. As compensation they have dramatically increased production values, overhauled their tournament structure and maintained a price point that people are willing to pay.
They offer a good value/cost ratio, and maintain the best players in the world under their roof every single tournament.
The NASL did things exactly opposite of this, they produced way too much content, with medocre production value, at a price that not enough people we're willing to pay (more than once), they over hyped and didn't deliever (although gave it an honest to god shot) and offered it mostly for free at peak hours for western viewership, and then released it for free a second time for EU restream, with no regional blackouts. The NASL produced SO MUCH CONTENT that I didn't even want to pay for VODS because i could just never begin to have enough time to watch it, and most of the games were all less important than a RO32 match in the GSL.
The good companies will stablize with a monotization model that peoplew ill have to pay whether they like it or not.. If people revolt and dont want to, the scene has only a few more years until it's a thing of the past.
On February 09 2012 23:42 TBone- wrote: The only foreign tournament I would subscribe to would be IPL. Currently, no other league is putting out a quality product for me to want to pay for it. MLG, NASL, and IEM have a long ways to go before I would even consider buying a subscription based service from either of them.
Quite frankly, your standards are too high. Even community theaters have to charge money for tickets.
I have a feeling a large portion of the "produce better content and I'll pay" argument are people who simply won't pay if they can avoid it, much like piracy.
I will gladly pay for a good product and not pay for a bad product. For example, I really think last year the mlg's were not worth the hd streams. We saw around 10% of the games played, there was a lot of down time, I couldn't watch both halo, call of duty, and the starcraft tournament. When I went down to mlg providence I couldn't even find a decent spot to watch starcaft. I'd have to stand 200 feet away from the stage.
Now if we compare mlg providence to the nasl season 2 finals, we saw every match played from every game. The streams were really high quality, it was very comfortable too. The production was so much higher as well. You get this rushed feeling when watching mlg. They did a great job scheduling all the matches. Now I understand that running an nasl event is easier than an mlg event, but its to the point that because nasl did such a great job in my eyes, I'll pay for it. But the pro circuit was so unattractive to me I don't see why I should pay for it.
On February 10 2012 01:00 Biff The Understudy wrote: 1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously.
GSL stream is free. GSL has no ads and its sponsor is a Korean one, marketed for the Korean audience. There is a billion of free contents for sc2, don't act like GOM having paid vods is what prevented you to get interested in sc2 ><
First of all we already have a PPV system with GomTV. Guess what, if you do not pay them you cannot even see low def VODs. And it works too.
Second please do not compare Stacraft2 to WWE, NBA, TNA, etc which are all American invented sport events that have 90% or more viewership in USA only. Show me instead a PPV show that is viewed worldwide so that we can compare it to Starcraft. Insisting on the above shows just indicates that you are ignorant.
LIke many people already said, we need quality before we can charge. And right now that quality is only given out by GomTV. MLG, IPL and the others are definitely getting better with time but they are not there yet.
It sees that LordJerith is just trying to put the cart before the horse here, and I am guessing (apologies if I am wrong) but he is looking at this from a team manager point of view where he wants his team to make money but that cannot happen if the tournaments do not make money in turn.
EDIT: sorry I meant free VODS not free Stream. Yes I can watch streams free but guess what it is 16hour time region ahead of me, so for what is worth the live might not even exist. For me GOMTV = VODS and those are not free.
On February 10 2012 01:23 Petrina wrote: First of all we already have a PPV system with GomTV. Guess what, if you do not pay them you cannot even see low def streams. And it works too.
Thats just not true. Anyone can watch GSL live for free.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free.
I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production.
Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have:
- Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players
That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem.
So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity.
I think the following happened: - A few companies started up first and got incredible attention. - Slowly, more events and companies started up and the scene got oversaturated. - Call it lost leader or bad business, the competition got so fierce that events started undercutting each other. - Now every event and company offers more value than money they can generate.
The result is that companies are giving away a lot of content. People are used to paying a small amount for this content, and are actually demanding more content for their money.
I don't think the industry is pointing to a charity model, I think everything got fucked up and people have this vision that GOM and MLG and IPL are making good money. Therefore, they feel justified in demanding $50 worth of content for a $10 payment. And because of bad business, if one company doesn't give it to them, 2 others will come along and give it to them. That means they look like heroes for a week, until everyone forgets and that becomes the new standard and now everyone is losing even more money. Hooray!
I don't have a solution.
I think the GSL is already solving a lot of the problems without resorting to undercutting and charity.
They were the first big prize, top quality tournament, they marketed it well, and put out a ton of content and gained huge viewership within the first full year of SC2.
They've now recognized the oversaturation of content, and slowed down how quickly the pump it out. As compensation they have dramatically increased production values, overhauled their tournament structure and maintained a price point that people are willing to pay.
They offer a good value/cost ratio, and maintain the best players in the world under their roof every single tournament.
The NASL did things exactly opposite of this, they produced way too much content, with medocre production value, at a price that not enough people we're willing to pay (more than once), they over hyped and didn't deliever (although gave it an honest to god shot) and offered it mostly for free at peak hours for western viewership, and then released it for free a second time for EU restream, with no regional blackouts. The NASL produced SO MUCH CONTENT that I didn't even want to pay for VODS because i could just never begin to have enough time to watch it, and most of the games were all less important than a RO32 match in the GSL.
The good companies will stablize with a monotization model that peoplew ill have to pay whether they like it or not.. If people revolt and dont want to, the scene has only a few more years until it's a thing of the past.
I agree, it seems like the endgame here is that western Starcraft will die completely and GOM will be the only tournament left standing
I don't necessarily mind monetizing E-SPORTS, but to say that it's dead if monetization doesn't happen soon seems like some serious hyperbole to me. Granted, I imagine LordJerith has more insight into the matter than I do, but still...
Monetization only really becomes a problem when it's priced high, a la GSL. I can watch very little actual free content on GomTV, and (I believe) none of it recent enough to really matter. I don't have the money to pay $25 for a season ticket, no matter how good or numerous the games are. If I could buy a year-long ticket for the same price, I'd probably do so, but as it stands now the cost is too great, so I can't watch the games I want to. And I appreciate the free stream, but the time difference is such that it falls squarely on my sleeping time, so that is a no-go as well. /endrant
If companies want to monetize E-SPORTS, as they surely must, I'm all for it; just don't price it too high, or make the value proposition worth it.
Honestly, when I watch an event I want little no no delays/downtime, casters that can actually speak and keep you interested without having to scream or force crappy jokes, and the top players. Currently only GOM provides this which is why I have always been willing to pay for the GSL. They have little downtime ( only occasional five minute breaks which are GREATLY needed for both the production crew and the viewer) all the casters are pretty solid and not confused, and most importantly, the VOD system is very easily navigable. MlG has way too much downtime, too much stuff in three days which is impossible to watch all of it and it's not even 1080p, it's more like 720p with terrible color balance. Dreamhack is worth paying for as it is an occasional event. But as mentioned above multiple times, the problem for esports is the lack of viewership numbers. UFC gets a couple million views with PPV. Sc2 specifically has abyssmal viewer numbers(60k viewers usually). LoL is much more massive and I wouldn't be surprised if that becomes the dominant game over the next few years.
Tldr: viewership numbers are the problem- along with overstauration
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free.
I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production.
Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have:
- Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players
That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem.
So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity.
I think the following happened: - A few companies started up first and got incredible attention. - Slowly, more events and companies started up and the scene got oversaturated. - Call it lost leader or bad business, the competition got so fierce that events started undercutting each other. - Now every event and company offers more value than money they can generate.
The result is that companies are giving away a lot of content. People are used to paying a small amount for this content, and are actually demanding more content for their money.
I don't think the industry is pointing to a charity model, I think everything got fucked up and people have this vision that GOM and MLG and IPL are making good money. Therefore, they feel justified in demanding $50 worth of content for a $10 payment. And because of bad business, if one company doesn't give it to them, 2 others will come along and give it to them. That means they look like heroes for a week, until everyone forgets and that becomes the new standard and now everyone is losing even more money. Hooray!
I don't have a solution.
I think the GSL is already solving a lot of the problems without resorting to undercutting and charity.
They were the first big prize, top quality tournament, they marketed it well, and put out a ton of content and gained huge viewership within the first full year of SC2.
They've now recognized the oversaturation of content, and slowed down how quickly the pump it out. As compensation they have dramatically increased production values, overhauled their tournament structure and maintained a price point that people are willing to pay.
They offer a good value/cost ratio, and maintain the best players in the world under their roof every single tournament.
The NASL did things exactly opposite of this, they produced way too much content, with medocre production value, at a price that not enough people we're willing to pay (more than once), they over hyped and didn't deliever (although gave it an honest to god shot) and offered it mostly for free at peak hours for western viewership, and then released it for free a second time for EU restream, with no regional blackouts. The NASL produced SO MUCH CONTENT that I didn't even want to pay for VODS because i could just never begin to have enough time to watch it, and most of the games were all less important than a RO32 match in the GSL.
The good companies will stablize with a monotization model that peoplew ill have to pay whether they like it or not.. If people revolt and dont want to, the scene has only a few more years until it's a thing of the past.
I agree, it seems like the endgame here is that western Starcraft will die completely and GOM will be the only tournament left standing
Please not so pesimistic dear sir :D If MLG/IPL/DH/IEM takes care of this fast enough and some of them won't it could be fine. DH and MLG living alongside would be no problemo. But all of them will be pretty hard on the viewership. I wouldn't pay XX$ times 4.
On February 10 2012 01:27 mrRoflpwn wrote: Honestly, when I watch an event I want little no no delays/downtime, casters that can actually speak and keep you interested without having to scream or force crappy jokes, and the top players. Currently only GOM provides this which is why I have always been willing to pay for the GSL. They have little downtime ( only occasional five minute breaks which are GREATLY needed for both the production crew and the viewer) all the casters are pretty solid and not confused, and most importantly, the VOD system is very easily navigable. MlG has way too much downtime, too much stuff in three days which is impossible to watch all of it and it's not even 1080p, it's more like 720p with terrible color balance. Dreamhack is worth paying for as it is an occasional event. But as mentioned above multiple times, the problem for esports is the lack of viewership numbers. UFC gets a couple million views with PPV. Sc2 specifically has abyssmal viewer numbers(60k viewers usually). LoL is much more massive and I wouldn't be surprised if that becomes the dominant game over the next few years.
Tldr: viewership numbers are the problem- along with overstauration
At least LoLs business model attracts more chinese players :D
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free.
I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production.
Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have:
- Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players
That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem.
So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity.
I think the following happened: - A few companies started up first and got incredible attention. - Slowly, more events and companies started up and the scene got oversaturated. - Call it lost leader or bad business, the competition got so fierce that events started undercutting each other. - Now every event and company offers more value than money they can generate.
The result is that companies are giving away a lot of content. People are used to paying a small amount for this content, and are actually demanding more content for their money.
I don't think the industry is pointing to a charity model, I think everything got fucked up and people have this vision that GOM and MLG and IPL are making good money. Therefore, they feel justified in demanding $50 worth of content for a $10 payment. And because of bad business, if one company doesn't give it to them, 2 others will come along and give it to them. That means they look like heroes for a week, until everyone forgets and that becomes the new standard and now everyone is losing even more money. Hooray!
I don't have a solution.
I think the GSL is already solving a lot of the problems without resorting to undercutting and charity.
They were the first big prize, top quality tournament, they marketed it well, and put out a ton of content and gained huge viewership within the first full year of SC2.
They've now recognized the oversaturation of content, and slowed down how quickly the pump it out. As compensation they have dramatically increased production values, overhauled their tournament structure and maintained a price point that people are willing to pay.
They offer a good value/cost ratio, and maintain the best players in the world under their roof every single tournament.
The NASL did things exactly opposite of this, they produced way too much content, with medocre production value, at a price that not enough people we're willing to pay (more than once), they over hyped and didn't deliever (although gave it an honest to god shot) and offered it mostly for free at peak hours for western viewership, and then released it for free a second time for EU restream, with no regional blackouts. The NASL produced SO MUCH CONTENT that I didn't even want to pay for VODS because i could just never begin to have enough time to watch it, and most of the games were all less important than a RO32 match in the GSL.
The good companies will stablize with a monotization model that peoplew ill have to pay whether they like it or not.. If people revolt and dont want to, the scene has only a few more years until it's a thing of the past.
I agree, it seems like the endgame here is that western Starcraft will die completely and GOM will be the only tournament left standing
Sound business vs Bad business sadly no major foreign tournament have shown to have a sound long term business and thats just sad. Stop hoping it gets bigger and spending more and spend what you can afford to. This industry will take time to grow it can't happen overnight so long term should be the goal not more viewers tomorrow
On February 09 2012 23:36 Doodsmack wrote: I think this community is spoiled in the sense that they've been given free stuff so far so they now expect it. But it's kind of pointless to argue against a PPV model if in fact the businesses involved in Esports will need it to stay afloat. If those businesses need it, they will eventually do it regardless of the level of complaining that goes on in forums. Pretending that you know which business model is best when you have no experience in Esports industry is just silly. Only the tournament organizers know, and like I said, they will switch to PPV if they need to. As they should.
Personally I think it's very reasonable to all tournaments to start charging for the HD live streams and HD VODs. GSL already does it, after all. We should appreciate the difficulty involved in producing a smooth 1080p stream with world-class players and casters by paying for it.
Only because they can. Best players, best production, and being the one to watch in sentiment. ALL others can't and will die save perahps a niche product like HSC. Husky gets 400,000 views on his videos for free I suspect those numbers will jump when people need thier SC2 fix and not watching GSL. But the bottom line is the market just can't support more than one with only 20,000-50,000 veiwers.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free.
I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production.
Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have:
- Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players
That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem.
So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity.
I think the following happened: - A few companies started up first and got incredible attention. - Slowly, more events and companies started up and the scene got oversaturated. - Call it lost leader or bad business, the competition got so fierce that events started undercutting each other. - Now every event and company offers more value than money they can generate.
The result is that companies are giving away a lot of content. People are used to paying a small amount for this content, and are actually demanding more content for their money.
I don't think the industry is pointing to a charity model, I think everything got fucked up and people have this vision that GOM and MLG and IPL are making good money. Therefore, they feel justified in demanding $50 worth of content for a $10 payment. And because of bad business, if one company doesn't give it to them, 2 others will come along and give it to them. That means they look like heroes for a week, until everyone forgets and that becomes the new standard and now everyone is losing even more money. Hooray!
I don't have a solution.
I think the GSL is already solving a lot of the problems without resorting to undercutting and charity.
They were the first big prize, top quality tournament, they marketed it well, and put out a ton of content and gained huge viewership within the first full year of SC2.
They've now recognized the oversaturation of content, and slowed down how quickly the pump it out. As compensation they have dramatically increased production values, overhauled their tournament structure and maintained a price point that people are willing to pay.
They offer a good value/cost ratio, and maintain the best players in the world under their roof every single tournament.
The NASL did things exactly opposite of this, they produced way too much content, with medocre production value, at a price that not enough people we're willing to pay (more than once), they over hyped and didn't deliever (although gave it an honest to god shot) and offered it mostly for free at peak hours for western viewership, and then released it for free a second time for EU restream, with no regional blackouts. The NASL produced SO MUCH CONTENT that I didn't even want to pay for VODS because i could just never begin to have enough time to watch it, and most of the games were all less important than a RO32 match in the GSL.
The good companies will stablize with a monotization model that peoplew ill have to pay whether they like it or not.. If people revolt and dont want to, the scene has only a few more years until it's a thing of the past.
I agree, it seems like the endgame here is that western Starcraft will die completely and GOM will be the only tournament left standing
that's the fault of the players really, how many koreans would want to watch a foreign tournament for more than shits and giggles? it's completely one-way traffic right now.
foreigners were given a fresh slate after 10 years of korean BW dominance, and didn't even last a year.
On February 09 2012 22:24 Klonere wrote: So what people are asking for is:
- Have 1080+ free stream (a la IPL) - Nearly TV broadcast production levels - Constant flow of high quality content (many people commenting on MLG only being on a few times a year) - Perfectly run event (no delays, tech problems etc) - The best casters (despite that being an enormously subjective thing) - The very best players
And then they would maybe consider dropping $5/10 on the event? Just trying to do some market research here.
You sound like you think that's too much to ask. Chill wrote something about "Charity Model" earlier in this thread.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free.
I, as a consumer of free esports content, feel offended by that term. It has happened more than once that I turned off one of these "Charity Broadcasts" just because I simply couldn't bear anymore the sometimes cringe-worthy, amateurish casting/production. Right now events that charge for streams are asking the viewers for "Charity Money" despite their sub par production.
Well I'm certainly not going to give "Charity Money" to companies that have:
- Bad quality streams - Bad broadcast production levels - Outrageous waiting times - Casters who drop hundreds of "Uhs" per broadcast - Sub par players
That's fine, but there's a gap between what things cost and what people are willing to pay for them. If people will pay $100,000 for a production that costs $1,000,000, then we have a problem.
So in a way you are agreeing with me that the industry is essentially asking the community for charity money? Be it for the greater good of ESPORTS or whatever, but asking people to pay $20 for something that's worth $10 is just that; asking for charity.
I think the following happened: - A few companies started up first and got incredible attention. - Slowly, more events and companies started up and the scene got oversaturated. - Call it lost leader or bad business, the competition got so fierce that events started undercutting each other. - Now every event and company offers more value than money they can generate.
The result is that companies are giving away a lot of content. People are used to paying a small amount for this content, and are actually demanding more content for their money.
I don't think the industry is pointing to a charity model, I think everything got fucked up and people have this vision that GOM and MLG and IPL are making good money. Therefore, they feel justified in demanding $50 worth of content for a $10 payment. And because of bad business, if one company doesn't give it to them, 2 others will come along and give it to them. That means they look like heroes for a week, until everyone forgets and that becomes the new standard and now everyone is losing even more money. Hooray!
I don't have a solution.
I think the GSL is already solving a lot of the problems without resorting to undercutting and charity.
They were the first big prize, top quality tournament, they marketed it well, and put out a ton of content and gained huge viewership within the first full year of SC2.
They've now recognized the oversaturation of content, and slowed down how quickly the pump it out. As compensation they have dramatically increased production values, overhauled their tournament structure and maintained a price point that people are willing to pay.
They offer a good value/cost ratio, and maintain the best players in the world under their roof every single tournament.
The NASL did things exactly opposite of this, they produced way too much content, with medocre production value, at a price that not enough people we're willing to pay (more than once), they over hyped and didn't deliever (although gave it an honest to god shot) and offered it mostly for free at peak hours for western viewership, and then released it for free a second time for EU restream, with no regional blackouts. The NASL produced SO MUCH CONTENT that I didn't even want to pay for VODS because i could just never begin to have enough time to watch it, and most of the games were all less important than a RO32 match in the GSL.
The good companies will stablize with a monotization model that peoplew ill have to pay whether they like it or not.. If people revolt and dont want to, the scene has only a few more years until it's a thing of the past.
I agree, it seems like the endgame here is that western Starcraft will die completely and GOM will be the only tournament left standing
that's the fault of the players really, how many koreans would want to watch a foreign tournament for more than shits and giggles? it's completely one-way traffic right now.
foreigners were given a fresh slate after 10 years of korean BW dominance, and didn't even last a year.
Well, I doubt taking out free streams is going to help build ESPORTS, as was already mentioned BW in Korea has worked for decade without directly monetizing the audience. And as Nazgul said, SC2 is hardly a sport like MMA, it's more like football/ice hockey.
It's sad that foreign events will have trouble getting top players in their events due to oversaturation. I'd love to see top tier Koreans in Assembly when I bought a ticket to go there, but then again if it overlaps with MLG/IPL/Dreamhack, overall quality of games will be lower.
By having a full-time job and other activities along with it, I don't have time nor energy to watch any other tournaments than GSL which I have paid (light ticket for a year) for. MLG/etc. might be on the list of interests if they are on weekends. I still chipped in for Homestory cup even though I barely had time to watch it, with Grubby's amazing commetating it was well worth it. I think I will rather subscribe to support an awesome individual player (White-RA) than a subpar tournament.
I don't pay for any streams right now, but I think I would, and the one I would pay for is MLG.
-I don't like the interface for GSL, I'm not captivated by most Korean progamer personalities and I'm sorry but I just don't get Tastosis. -IPL has nice graphics, but the matches are severly lacking hype because they are cast from replays, and the casters themselves seem like nice ppl, but they hardly seem able to get enthused themselves, the whole thing is so stale. -EG masters cup is awesome, I love djWheat and I dig the clan wars, but it's hardly on at all. -ESL is really good as well, but Bitterdam is either horribly awkward or embarresing to watch. I think those guys hate each other. Having said that, the IEMs are the most hype live competition outside of MLGs, and this makes it very fun to watch. -NASL, was interested in season 1, but they seem to be suffering the same lack of hype problems that IPL are, as well as lacking professional casters (HIRE djWheat or Day9 or JPmcD or somebody who can speak intelligently and ammusingly with great ease PLEASE).
For me MLG last year had everything. The best presentation, the great casters, and most importantly the hype of a huge live event. It was a downer when there were huge gaps between games, but it was only a tiny issue when compared to the huge overall success.
Now I am worried by the turn MLG has taken away from live events. I have seen some of the qualifiers and they have not been hugely fun. Maybe the live events will still be fun, anyway I really not sure about what is going on with them at the moment.
So, yeah if all the events started charging a fee, then I'd consider buying MLG and possibly ESL... Do I think that TeamLiquid is ideally placed to act as middleman to offer a one off payment to be able to view HQ streams from all these top competitions? Yes I do, and I hope SOMEBODY else out there has had the same idea.
Im all for paying to help out E-Sports, but alot of the viewers cant afford/willing to pay for the good quality streams anyway. I would guess way over 70% of the viewers of the GSL are watching the LQ free stream.
That said i think they should charge for 720-1080 (LAG FREE HAS TO BE LAG FREE) streaming, i always pay for ESL broadcasts of the there tournament, in my opinion they do it right, $5 £5 pricing for whole tournament HQ pass. Every tournament did that would appeal to more and more. You can't just smack a $20-30 price tag on every major tournament just because you can. You will destroy "E-Sports" as you say.
PS Dont forget theres more than just SC2 in E-Sports ^_^
we all knew in our hearts that it was a bubble, didn't we? i mean, no one really expected an RTS to be the premier esport in the west.
sc2 rode the wave of it's hugely popular and enigmatic (to westerners) predecessor and came at a fortunate time when other esport titles were coming to the end of their days (cs, quake, war3), leaving the path clear for sc2 to take the front seat, temporarily.
my logical explanation is that people have finite time, and very few people want to watch anything less than the best. the way sc2 is designed is that high tier games tend to last longer and be more exciting, which is of course more attractive to the paying viewer.
unless you're disagreeing that koreans have dominated sc2 for quite some time now, it stands to reason that a foreign tournament with foreign players is going to be less than stellar.
also, although the sc2 scene in korea is not doing all that great, it still represents a very substantial portion of the sc2 viewerbase. the GSL is effectively getting revenue from both markets, while the foreign tournaments have to make do with only 1.
The best way would be for all the big tournaments and leagues to come together and offer some sort of universal monthly/annual pay plan that pays for everyone's content for HD live stream/VOD.
Hahahahaha and world peace and no more hungry children in Africa too.
Either way low quailty live stream needs to stay, otherwise the fanbase will definitely shrink, the overall interest to play SC2 is already lessening among the normal players and more new competitive esport capable games will always get more attention.when they first get released(i.e DOTA2). Maybe certain tournaments will start catering specific games instead of all catering to SC2 and everyone gets a slice of the pie this way.
We have Korea's BW model to thank for SC2's esport success today and it certainly would NOT have happened if all those youtube game were taken down and private streams for live events were hunted down, which is what happens for big football/soccer streams now. Also all this pay per view service will never be able to flourish outside of NA/EU, the Asian market will never buy it unless it's cheap like a normal cable tv plan(i.e OGN/MBC). Even the Korean live events are free but that is also due to the big sponsors they could find for BW like Samsung and Korean Air for example. Not everything should be free, but it needs to be within reason of the target audience.
I paid around $125 for GSL last year and that doesn't even include everything. This year if you want the monthly premium, you pay $240 over a year and that doesn't include the team league. You can get it cheaper if you want to make a larger bulk payment, but I wasn't in a position to do that.
If every tournament started to charge $5-10, there's just no way I could justify that. I simply can't afford that on my budget and I'm sure many are in the same position as students.
In contrast, I pay $8-9 a month for streaming Netflix with tons of content that is constantly updated. That totals around $100 a year.
If every tournament started charging $5-10 as well as the high price (to me) of GSL, I'd probably just end up dropping it altogether. Don't get me wrong, I really enjoy watching and don't want to stop, but how much can they charge and keep a decent viewer base?
On February 10 2012 01:00 Biff The Understudy wrote: 1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously.
GSL stream is free. GSL has no ads and its sponsor is a Korean one, marketed for the Korean audience. There is a billion of free contents for sc2, don't act like GOM having paid vods is what prevented you to get interested in sc2 ><
Oh yeah, I mixed up GSL and GOM.
Well, I don't know anything. Just that I can't watch the biggest league without paying or registering on some obscure website. When I want to look at OSL, I just wait for one of the 6 streams or the youtube vod. There is no such things with major Korean league, apparently. Except that, there are apparently a zillion foreign cup that all have kind of similar names with players that I don't know. Seriously if BW scene had been like SC2 is nowadays, I would have never bothered to watch it. And I would have certainly not paid to have my OSL vods. I am a huge fan and I still wouldn't.
I wouldn't have started BW by watching the foreign scene, and as much as I wanted to see Boxer instead of Idra or Fenix, I am kind of curious to see the final of a GSL but really not by random people in a random cup. You get into these things later.
Another problem these foreign events have is Koreans. Everyone talking about UFC, well would you pay to watch an adult beating on a child? That's what Koreans bring.
And without Koreans, it's just children fighting, Again, not worth it. GSL will be only game in town PPV.
I'm not going to pretend I know anything about running a business or a professional SC2 team or a high profile tournament. I do know that as a fan of metal, I pay a lot of money to go to concerts each year. I think I saw about 15 concerts in 2011. Every show I see is about $20-30 and then I often drive hours out of my way to go see a show.
My point is, if you as a member of this community, love StarCraft 2 or League of Legends or Dota or Quake or whatever, you should be able to support your hobby. There is literally no hobby out there right now that is free. We in the StarCraft 2 community have been lucky in that there is so much free content. But in the end, you need money to keep things running.
I love MLG. I love Dreamhack. I'll vote with my dollars to support these events. $35 for a WEEKEND'S worth of entertainment? No problem. I've spent $50 for 3 hours at a concert. Why this is such a ludicrous amount to people I can't understand. If you truely love StarCraft 2, you can probably afford to spend a measly $50 or whatever it is for an MLG Gold Pass for what, 9 months of content? Or if you're cheap, Homestory Cup was $5 for HD!
Whether you like it or not the reality is that the players, admins, tournament organizers, teams, and everyone else related to a StarCraft 2 tournament needs money in some capacity. Hell, just to play SC2 you need to drop like $40-50. Imagine the costs of shipping in that huge ass satellite truck that MLG has. Or instantly replacing all the broken computers in the case of IEM Kiev.
If you love this sport, this scene, support it. A couple bucks will probably go a long way. And think about it, even if you don't watch the entire tournament, you probably got $20 of enjoyment out of it anyways right?
You know, just thinking of an alternate point of view here. Some of this would have to be the game developers responsibility wouldn't it?
I'm almost finding myself on the Kespa side of the fence here with the Kespa/Blizzard controversy around the release of SC2. Which is amazing because I was so stalwart in my opinion of Blizzard being right at the time.
Anyway, Blizzard no doubt wants SC2 to be a successful e-sport, they are pushing as hard as possible to make it the premier e-sport. But they are putting nothing in to it (besides balance and gameplay, but even then some can say they have failed in this regard) if all these tournament hosting companies are struggling so hard to make a buck, while Blizzard is even taking a cut, wouldn't it solely be the fault of Blizzard if these companies go under due to lack of monetization? I just can't see it any other way really.
Bottom line really is; if the companies want their games played at tournaments, and to be the hot hotness, they should offer up some cash to help these tournaments, not take a cut. It really is ridiculous. The free advertising alone that they are getting is absolutely ridiculous. In-fact they are getting paid to have their game advertised... Damnit... Blizzard is smart.
I'm really disliking Blizzard more and more as time goes on.
On February 10 2012 01:48 tdt wrote: Another problem these foreign events have is Koreans. Everyone talking about UFC, well would you pay to watch an adult beating on a child? That's what Koreans bring.
But would you pay to see not the highest level player compete? I know I wouldn't
On February 10 2012 01:00 Dantelew wrote: I think Chill is right when he says that people have grown to used to this charity model where theres so much content for free.
This thread seems to be a lot of people that demand free content, demand growth of the community and tournaments, want higher prize pools and want to see premium players with high quality production, and are throwing numbers and stats around with little true knowledge of whats going on behind the scenes, assuming that ads will just pay for it...
I really hate to be "that guy" and start bashing people, but a lot of the SC2 community has been way too spoiled with what they get. It seems that a lot of people think that all these production companies are basking in wealth and trying to scalp every customer they can for every dollar possible, but the truth of the matter is, businesses can only lose money or break even for so long before they call it quits and pack it in.
A lot of people hear the word Monetizing and immediately scream betrayal and backstab, that's fine, keep believing that but just don't be surprised when slowly over the years, content becomes less and less, and esports becomes a fad that a small group of people think back and reminisce about. This business model we have right now just doesn't last forever.
Anyone that argues that NBA or NFL is free, well... Do you pay for cable or satellite? Then you pay for channels, and channels pay for broadcasting rights.
The idea that anything is free is absurd, but so many people in this community want to have their cake and eat it too. Pony up and support the products you enjoy, and growth will occur. Bottom line is, if you don't want or care about growth of esports and just want to enjoy it as is, keep doing what you're doing, it won't last forever.
(Just as a side note, im not accusing everyone of never paying a dime for anything ever, and this problem isn't exclusive to the SC2 community either)
Let's be careful with our rhetoric here. The reason people don't want to give money has nothing to do with being lazy, spoiled or complacent and everything to do with the fact that most people only have so much money to spend on mental health-type activities like watching casts and playing games. I don't give money to the American Cancer Society either, but that isn't because I like cancer or because I'm not scared to death of getting it in the next 10-30 years. It's because I don't have that much money, but I do have a wife, a kid, another in planning and a desire to use my money to make my life possible. I don't even own a home and have no financial capability of doing so in the near future. I'm greatful that SC2 casts are often free - but that's only because that means I get to watch them, not because it saves me money doing so.
Let's also be clear about who is acting more like a charity here - only one side of this exchange wants money. The content provided here has value, and I think they deserve more money and attention, but a lot of times viewers like myself can't afford to pay for something they can get somewhere else for free. This is where people want to see advertising step in because advertisers have money that they're not using on kids, food, etc. and desire exposure. It seems like a good match that doesn't stretch my already thin budget.
I don't pay for cable to watch TV, but I do pay for internet - the ISPs don't pay streamers the same way, sure, but that's not a fault of my side of the arrangement. I still pay for the ability to access streams.
You - and the community in general - need to be careful about how pushy you get in charging people. Some people would love to pay, some people can't. It isn't because they're "spoiled" - it's because money is tight. You may recall from your own experiences that nobody ever seems to have enough to cover the basic things you'd like to do these days. Having a computer, internet, and SC2 already makes people here spend more money on entertainment than many are capable of.
Paying for HD quality is something from the past. Technology advances and people don't just accept some free stream anymore that has sucky quality (I know tons of people that don't watch GSL cuz of the quality). I would prefer a free HD stream but with commercials for every1. If they have some decent commercials and not just the same 5 for 50 times per day commercials aren't even that bad.
On February 10 2012 01:00 Biff The Understudy wrote: 1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously.
GSL stream is free. GSL has no ads and its sponsor is a Korean one, marketed for the Korean audience. There is a billion of free contents for sc2, don't act like GOM having paid vods is what prevented you to get interested in sc2 ><
Oh yeah, I mixed up GSL and GOM.
Well, I don't know anything. Just that I can't watch the biggest league without paying or registering on some obscure website. When I want to look at OSL, I just wait for one of the 6 streams or the youtube vod. There is no such things with major Korean league, apparently. Except that, there are apparently a zillion foreign cup that all have kind of similar names with players that I don't know. Seriously if BW scene had been like SC2 is nowadays, I would have never bothered to watch it. And I would have certainly not paid to have my OSL vods. I am a huge fan and I still wouldn't.
I wouldn't have started BW by watching the foreign scene, and as much as I wanted to see Boxer instead of Idra or Fenix, I am kind of curious to see the final of a GSL but really not by random people in a random cup. You get into these things later.
I dislike the idea of PPV for SC2 because there is a lack of additional content. I have no problem with the idea in general, though have rarely paid for PPV. Like Nazgul said, there needs to be a reason for PPV, for UFC that is the opportunity to see the players. I think the question for making a business case for PPV is what can tournaments offer to viewers that justifies the additional charge. Personally, I pay for the MLG pass because of the higher quality but more importantly, the 4 games at the same time. I believe it is these supporting assets that can offer profits to these companies.
As I've only gone to one live tourney (MLG Raleigh), I'll use that as my comparative to a sport w/ free viewership & paid attendance (say NFL). There is just not much that MLG sells to spectators and viewers outside of content (some merchandise, bit of food). But suppose you got to a football game, jerseys for the home team, all sorts of random keepsakes, food (to get food at Raleigh, better off leaving the convention center). I think these tournies need to look at how so many professional sports can coexist and be profitable and find ways to better monetize esports.
On February 10 2012 01:49 CPTBadAss wrote: I'm not going to pretend I know anything about running a business or a professional SC2 team or a high profile tournament. I do know that as a fan of metal, I pay a lot of money to go to concerts each year. I think I saw about 15 concerts in 2011. Every show I see is about $20-30 and then I often drive hours out of my way to go see a show.
My point is, if you as a member of this community, love StarCraft 2 or League of Legends or Dota or Quake or whatever, you should be able to support your hobby. There is literally no hobby out there right now that is free. We in the StarCraft 2 community have been lucky in that there is so much free content. But in the end, you need money to keep things running.
I love MLG. I love Dreamhack. I'll vote with my dollars to support these events. $35 for a WEEKEND'S worth of entertainment? No problem. I've spent $50 for 3 hours at a concert. Why this is such a ludicrous amount to people I can't understand. If you truely love StarCraft 2, you can probably afford to spend a measly $50 or whatever it is for an MLG Gold Pass for what, 9 months of content? Or if you're cheap, Homestory Cup was $5 for HD!
Whether you like it or not the reality is that the players, admins, tournament organizers, teams, and everyone else related to a StarCraft 2 tournament needs money in some capacity. Hell, just to play SC2 you need to drop like $40-50. Imagine the costs of shipping in that huge ass satellite truck that MLG has. Or instantly replacing all the broken computers in the case of IEM Kiev.
If you love this sport, this scene, support it. A couple bucks will probably go a long way. And think about it, even if you don't watch the entire tournament, you probably got $20 of enjoyment out of it anyways right?
I would much rather spend $50 dollars on a concert that I get to go to, be social and have 5-6 hours worth of solid memories with my friends, than pay $35 on a weekend ticket of MLG and sit infront of my computer for 30 hours and try and watch all of the content possible. $50 for 3 hours of premium live content that you'll remember for a very long time has a far greater value than $35 dollars for as much content as MLG can ram down your throat over the course of a weekend (which by the way is aired on freestream the entire time too).
My whole stance is that poor business design has enabled people to get the content they want without paying a dime for it, and when people are given the option to pay for content, or watch it for free, I think we all know what people choose. Since people have been given this option for so long, when companies start suggesting that people now need to pay, its veiwed as a betrayal to the community, theyre boycotted, and then forced to offer it for free, or go away. GOM gives out enough content that you can veiw it in a sitting, catch up, follow the story lines and easily choose which players you want to see. I have no interest in sitting down 3 days later and trying to watch a whole MLG, the incentive is just not there, I either watch it when its on or not at all. Its simply too much, too fast, and of little relavence once its over to justify a form of investment in not only money but also time. If MLG managed to create a league format with compairable quality and importance as their tournaments, but allows me to watch and CARE about the content at a resonable rate, people would probably pay.
To go back to the NASL model that I referenced before, I'm just not that interested in catching up on Week 4, Day 3, Match 6, when i still have 2 other Weeks to watch, and we're about to be faced with 6 more Weeks to watch, I dont have that time, and these matches just don't mean enough to me to justify any investment, let alone my time (which is more important). Its just bad business.
I pay to watch the top players competing in a consistent and reliable tournament or show. Today, that tournament is GSL. I would never pay to watch NA or NA/EU-only (something like NASL). OTOH, I don't pay for GSTL because of casters (moletrap - wolf and khaldor are okay). So it's just a matter of taste I guess.
I think it was Nazgul that said that PPV works because its content is rare, but basically this is why GOM business (seems to) work. Ok, once in a blue moon you can see MVP in some foreign tourney, but mostly you'll see him once or twice a month in the GSL, and that's all. Same for most of the top korean players, they're pretty rare.
On February 10 2012 01:00 Dantelew wrote: I think Chill is right when he says that people have grown to used to this charity model where theres so much content for free.
This thread seems to be a lot of people that demand free content, demand growth of the community and tournaments, want higher prize pools and want to see premium players with high quality production, and are throwing numbers and stats around with little true knowledge of whats going on behind the scenes, assuming that ads will just pay for it...
I really hate to be "that guy" and start bashing people, but a lot of the SC2 community has been way too spoiled with what they get. It seems that a lot of people think that all these production companies are basking in wealth and trying to scalp every customer they can for every dollar possible, but the truth of the matter is, businesses can only lose money or break even for so long before they call it quits and pack it in.
A lot of people hear the word Monetizing and immediately scream betrayal and backstab, that's fine, keep believing that but just don't be surprised when slowly over the years, content becomes less and less, and esports becomes a fad that a small group of people think back and reminisce about. This business model we have right now just doesn't last forever.
Anyone that argues that NBA or NFL is free, well... Do you pay for cable or satellite? Then you pay for channels, and channels pay for broadcasting rights.
The idea that anything is free is absurd, but so many people in this community want to have their cake and eat it too. Pony up and support the products you enjoy, and growth will occur. Bottom line is, if you don't want or care about growth of esports and just want to enjoy it as is, keep doing what you're doing, it won't last forever.
(Just as a side note, im not accusing everyone of never paying a dime for anything ever, and this problem isn't exclusive to the SC2 community either)
Let's be careful with our rhetoric here. The reason people don't want to give money has nothing to do with being lazy, spoiled or complacent and everything to do with the fact that most people only have so much money to spend on mental health-type activities like watching casts and playing games. I don't give money to the American Cancer Society either, but that isn't because I like cancer or because I'm not scared to death of getting it in the next 10-30 years. It's because I don't have that much money, but I do have a wife, a kid, another in planning and a desire to use my money to make my life possible. I don't even own a home and have no financial capability of doing so in the near future. I'm greatful that SC2 casts are often free - but that's only because that means I get to watch them, not because it saves me money doing so.
Let's also be clear about who is acting more like a charity here - only one side of this exchange wants money. The content provided here has value, and I think they deserve more money and attention, but a lot of times viewers like myself can't afford to pay for something they can get somewhere else for free. This is where people want to see advertising step in because advertisers have money that they're not using on kids, food, etc. and desire exposure. It seems like a good match that doesn't stretch my already thin budget.
I don't pay for cable to watch TV, but I do pay for internet - the ISPs don't pay streamers the same way, sure, but that's not a fault of my side of the arrangement. I still pay for the ability to access streams.
You - and the community in general - need to be careful about how pushy you get in charging people. Some people would love to pay, some people can't. It isn't because they're "spoiled" - it's because money is tight. You may recall from your own experiences that nobody ever seems to have enough to cover the basic things you'd like to do these days. Having a computer, internet, and SC2 already makes people here spend more money on entertainment than many are capable of.
You and I are in the same boat, I have a child, a job that doesnt pay extremely well, I own no home. I pay for GSL and thats about it, I watch streams that are free and get enjoyment out of them, but first person streams of people that are laddering are free because they dont have any value.
The Western world is overpriveledged and spoiled. There once was a mentality of working hard for what you have, it's not there anymore. People want want want want want. We're greedy. If you have a young family and times are tight, you need to make sacrifices, I pay for GSL because I work my ass off to give my son what he needs first, and pay my bills second, and then I come third. I get value and enjoyment out of things where I can, but if I can't afford something, I don't steal it, and I certainly dont expect it to be given to me for free. T
The real issue at hand is that it IS and HAS been given out for free for so long that now companies are saying "well, shit we're not really making money here, so you guys have to pay or we're done". And everyone will cry once all the free content dies out, and are forced to pay for what has become sustainable.
Life sucks man, but I know what it's like, and you do too.. My real point is that a lot of people dont, and go through a large portion of their life demanding that everythings given to them on a silver platter. I see it all the time with younger kids, with people I work with, the people I went to school with.. And this topic pretty much sums that mentality up.
Less content, and paid-for instead of free? Fine. The market is flooded with so much stuff already anyways (I'm glad IGN turned their spam broadcasts down a notch.) I for one wouldn't mind ponying up for some solid content that one can really look forward to, instead of mindless turning on streams that no longer stand out because there's just too much of it.
PPV will make it highly unlikely that new people will get in to SC2 and a very large part of the ones already in will leave. The only outcome, IMO, is complete death.
I don't want to offend anyone but the comparison with MMA is ... wrong, to be gentle. MMA is about two men fighting each other, something that we all did since the day we could walk. Its in our nature as human beings (living beings for that matter). SC2, is a FUCKING VIDEO GAME, a quite complicated one at that. You need a lot of time to understand what the hell is going on at the most basic level, can anybody be so cretin to think that mr Joe will "just give SC2 a shot" (pay for something that he barely understands)
I agree with Liquid`Nazgul on all points.
It will take some visionary thinking to make eSports profitable, just like in any other business.If you can't think of anything other then directly charging the viewer? You die.
I also have to laugh at some posters that present the matra of "spoiled" fans/ charity/ etc. In every little thing in life (and business) is never, ever ever the fault of the "people"/ community. If something fails is the complete and absolute responsibility of those at the top, in other word, bad business-man.
What I find weird.. Who did from the very beginning good Job with SC2?
Not surprising: IEM ---> Years of experience, they did not "crumble" under the suddenly giant SC2 crowd (like MLG). Their production is not overly fancy, but it's working (remember NASL S1? :p). They were there from the very start (remember IPL S1 and 2 until they finally got to business with S3?).
Their only fault was probably not hyping themselves enough so they now look kinda small when compared to MLG which fixed it's problems and did the whole hype thing way better.
Surprising: BIG LANS--> Dreamhack/Assembly/Kopenhagen/Others I forgot... These events just "worked". For some reason these LANS could deliver and in the case of Dreamhack still do deliver a better E-Sports event than the E-Sports organisations that actually just live from the tournaments they host. Strange isn't it?
Others? MLG? Got overwhelmed and acted sloooooow when it came to rulechanges and all that stuff. Looks promising in the future tho (aside from extended series ). NASL? Wanted to much and didn't/couldn't/wouldn't deliver... Nowadays just looks very, uhm, "average"?. IPL? Needed an eternity to "get off" and just seemed to play it too save? They basically were lucky that MLG/NASL failed so hard in the beginning..
The Future/Present? The new shit are TEAMLEAGUES!.. Again there are to many cooks at the cake.. So we got IPL, NASL, EG and wtf do I know who else... Hint: This was, what IPL or NASL should have done from the beginning, they should never have tried to fight IEM + MLG + Major Lans + GSL at "single" Tournaments... They learned this a lil late and we got the same problem all over again.
I think another big problem that hasn't been touched on I believe regarding this situation is the way blizzard don't support most of their tournament. They requires tournaments with over $5k prizepool to give them 50% of ad revenue and they do a terrible job at advertising their tournament.
On February 10 2012 01:49 CPTBadAss wrote: I'm not going to pretend I know anything about running a business or a professional SC2 team or a high profile tournament. I do know that as a fan of metal, I pay a lot of money to go to concerts each year. I think I saw about 15 concerts in 2011. Every show I see is about $20-30 and then I often drive hours out of my way to go see a show.
My point is, if you as a member of this community, love StarCraft 2 or League of Legends or Dota or Quake or whatever, you should be able to support your hobby. There is literally no hobby out there right now that is free. We in the StarCraft 2 community have been lucky in that there is so much free content. But in the end, you need money to keep things running.
I love MLG. I love Dreamhack. I'll vote with my dollars to support these events. $35 for a WEEKEND'S worth of entertainment? No problem. I've spent $50 for 3 hours at a concert. Why this is such a ludicrous amount to people I can't understand. If you truely love StarCraft 2, you can probably afford to spend a measly $50 or whatever it is for an MLG Gold Pass for what, 9 months of content? Or if you're cheap, Homestory Cup was $5 for HD!
Whether you like it or not the reality is that the players, admins, tournament organizers, teams, and everyone else related to a StarCraft 2 tournament needs money in some capacity. Hell, just to play SC2 you need to drop like $40-50. Imagine the costs of shipping in that huge ass satellite truck that MLG has. Or instantly replacing all the broken computers in the case of IEM Kiev.
If you love this sport, this scene, support it. A couple bucks will probably go a long way. And think about it, even if you don't watch the entire tournament, you probably got $20 of enjoyment out of it anyways right?
I would much rather spend $50 dollars on a concert that I get to go to, be social and have 5-6 hours worth of solid memories with my friends, than pay $35 on a weekend ticket of MLG and sit infront of my computer for 30 hours and try and watch all of the content possible. $50 for 3 hours of premium live content that you'll remember for a very long time has a far greater value than $35 dollars for as much content as MLG can ram down your throat over the course of a weekend (which by the way is aired on freestream the entire time too).
That's another issue entirely, but one that is very important and worthy of discussion. Events like MLG, IEM, etc require people to either dedicate their entire weekend to watching, or purchasing the vods and having to sit down and watch them when everyone already knows all the results, and with most of the excitement gone. I can tell you my two favorite Sc2 memories. Number 1 was going to bed at 8pm, waking up at 330, inviting 2 friends to my apartment, hooking my computer up to my TV and my shitty speakers, fumbling with the gomstreamer, and watching Jinro in the GSL. Noah fell asleep on the couch. Jinro won and Will became a huge fanboy and started to play Terran instead of Zerg. Number 2 involved my friends and I getting barbecue at a school picnic, sneaking away from people who wanted to hang out with us, hooking my computer up GSL style. Then, this happened.
These moments are why I watch Sc2, and why I can justify paying for the GSL. Watching Jinro made me a fan, hyped me up so much and really showed the power of this simple video game. Tournament formats like the GSL and TSL3 are very good at doing this. People love brackets. Pool play where everyone gets seeded anyways (like MLG) don't build as much tension. Nothing has filled me with as much excitement as the GSL Open Seasons. The games were awful, the production terrible, and the streams completely unreliable; but god damnit, the games mattered. They mattered a lot. If Boxer lost his first two games, he's out. You won't see him for another 2 months. Now If a player like Naniwa or Thorzain gets eliminated from a tournament, it's ok. They'll stream tomorrow. There are so many options to see Sc2 now that the events don't hold the same weight. The only event that still holds weight for me is the GSL. And even if I completely stop watching Sc2 sometime soon (which I doubt), I'll come back for TSL4.
Even if it's many, many years from now.
Now, I'm going to go watch some of the TSL3 vods and smile. And find Jinro's season 3 run and watch it straight through and make a pizza. God, sometimes I love Starcraft.
On February 10 2012 02:14 Sapphire.lux wrote: PPV will make it highly unlikely that new people will get in to SC2 and a very large part of the ones already in will leave. The only outcome, IMO, is complete death.
I don't want to offend anyone but the comparison with MMA is ... wrong, to be gentle. MMA is about two men fighting each other, something that we all did since the day we could walk. Its in our nature as human beings (living beings for that matter). SC2, is a FUCKING VIDEO GAME, a quite complicated one at that. You need a lot of time to understand what the hell is going on at the most basic level, can anybody be so cretin to think that mr Joe will "just give SC2 a shot" (pay for something that he barely understands)
I agree with Liquid`Nazgul on all points.
It will take some visionary thinking to make eSports profitable, just like in any other business.If you can't think of anything other then directly charging the viewer? You die.
I also have to laugh at some posters that present the matra of "spoiled" fans/ charity/ etc. In every little thing in life (and business) is never, ever ever the fault of the "people"/ community. If something fails is the complete and absolute responsibility of those at the top, in other word, bad business-man.
/rant :p
I disagree that SC2 will die or NOT grow if you charge for quality streams. The fans grow because they play the game or are brought on by other fans. This happens regardless.
On February 10 2012 01:00 Biff The Understudy wrote: 1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously.
GSL stream is free. GSL has no ads and its sponsor is a Korean one, marketed for the Korean audience. There is a billion of free contents for sc2, don't act like GOM having paid vods is what prevented you to get interested in sc2 ><
Oh yeah, I mixed up GSL and GOM.
Well, I don't know anything. Just that I can't watch the biggest league without paying or registering on some obscure website. When I want to look at OSL, I just wait for one of the 6 streams or the youtube vod. There is no such things with major Korean league, apparently. Except that, there are apparently a zillion foreign cup that all have kind of similar names with players that I don't know. Seriously if BW scene had been like SC2 is nowadays, I would have never bothered to watch it. And I would have certainly not paid to have my OSL vods. I am a huge fan and I still wouldn't.
I wouldn't have started BW by watching the foreign scene, and as much as I wanted to see Boxer instead of Idra or Fenix, I am kind of curious to see the final of a GSL but really not by random people in a random cup. You get into these things later.
You sir are a huge troll bent on doing as much missinformation and spewing dumb false arguments everywhere. GSL stream is free, VOD's are not. You don't have to register on some obscure website to watch GSL ( u can log in with twitter/facebook) or MLG. I get that you don't like SC2 so just don't bother doing missinformation and ignore it. We don't really need a "huge fan" who can't pay 5$ for VOD's and can't be arsed to watch free streams even thou his so called heroes Boxer/nada are playing in those cups.
Foreginer cups actually are usually filled with nothing but VERY well know sc2 players. There are actually tons of threads about people complaining that other players don't get a chance to play in foreign cups due to the fact there are no free spots/qualificatins.
TL;DR Stop spreading false information, and if u don't like SC2 stop posting in SC2 General.
Similar to how other sports run a pay service (NBA, NFL, NHL) I'd gladly pay a monthly or annual fee to a SC Network which brought me action from major lan tourneys, spotlighted streamers, or the like. But when it's expected to support each and every player/team/event you like it becomes pricey. And even worse, there becomes this pyramid of players/teams who are supported, and then everyone else falling by the way side.
I would consider any reasonable fee. For me, and for a lot of people, the GSL is already PPV considering they offer no free version of the vods and the time of night they air. That said even for free I'm only interested in live events, I know my opinion isn't universal but I think now is as good a time as any to say how disappointed I was when Fuck Slasher was cancelled in favor of online tournaments.
On February 10 2012 01:00 Biff The Understudy wrote: 1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously.
GSL stream is free. GSL has no ads and its sponsor is a Korean one, marketed for the Korean audience. There is a billion of free contents for sc2, don't act like GOM having paid vods is what prevented you to get interested in sc2 ><
Oh yeah, I mixed up GSL and GOM.
Well, I don't know anything. Just that I can't watch the biggest league without paying or registering on some obscure website. When I want to look at OSL, I just wait for one of the 6 streams or the youtube vod. There is no such things with major Korean league, apparently. Except that, there are apparently a zillion foreign cup that all have kind of similar names with players that I don't know. Seriously if BW scene had been like SC2 is nowadays, I would have never bothered to watch it. And I would have certainly not paid to have my OSL vods. I am a huge fan and I still wouldn't.
I wouldn't have started BW by watching the foreign scene, and as much as I wanted to see Boxer instead of Idra or Fenix, I am kind of curious to see the final of a GSL but really not by random people in a random cup. You get into these things later.
Well if you aren't trolling, the first 3 seasons of the GSL are now free on the website. The games are pretty low quality because the game was so new back then, but it's a good way to learn who the players are and understand the devotion and loyalty people have to their players. It'll help you understand why people freaked out that NaDa and MC left oGs, that TSL doesn't look remotely the same anymore, and that fOu is now FXO. If you ever want to get invested and learn the history of the early days, this is a good opportunity to do it. I know sometimes BW people are hesitant to watch SC2, or get annoyed by SC2 fans, or don't want this game to kill the game they love. I don't either. I got into watching Broodwar because of ScII. Artosis would mention July's golden mouse, or NaDa's greatness, or Boxer at all and I had to know. I saw Boxer bunker rush yellOw three times. I saw Boxer marine scv all-in in a championship match. I watched Hiya[fOu] do the trap card ceremony. I witnessed Firebathero be... Firebathero. If you don't enjoy the Sc2 vods or the scene, that's fine. You're very lucky that you have 10 years of an amazing game to fall back on.
On February 10 2012 02:26 Slusher wrote: I would consider any reasonable fee. For me, and for a lot of people, the GSL is already PPV considering they offer no free version of the vods and the time of night they air. That said even for free I'm only interested in live events, I know my opinion isn't universal but I think now is as good a time as any to say how disappointed I was when Fuck Slasher was cancelled in favor of online tournaments.
My arguement against only paying for live events is TSL3. Would you have paid for it? I would have. High quality is what people should pay for; whether it is a LAN or online tournament.
On February 10 2012 02:05 phanto wrote: I pay to watch the top players competing in a consistent and reliable tournament or show. Today, that tournament is GSL. I would never pay to watch NA or NA/EU-only (something like NASL). OTOH, I don't pay for GSTL because of casters (moletrap - wolf and khaldor are okay). So it's just a matter of taste I guess.
I'm with this guy. I got the premium GSL ticket for the year because the Code S tournament is the most prestigious (quoting Nani) with the highest-caliber players. The new format also forces those players to stay in top form lest they end up perpetually mired in Code A.
It's easy to keep up with Code S and not feeling like I'm watching content that is comparatively "old" like I would have to do if I got MLG/DH/etc. tickets. When it comes to foreign tournaments, MLG/DH/etc. Finals Day is usually all that I have time for; personally I find it difficult to spend an entire weekend doing nothing but watching SC2. The format also doesn't allow for some of the more creative preplanned builds for which the time off during the GSL affords, the flipside of that being testing the spontaneous play abilities of the players.
That said, I certainly enjoy their content and do not expect to get it for free. Are their daily HQ passes? I certainly would get my money's worth of $5-10 for HQ Finals Day.
On February 10 2012 01:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On February 10 2012 01:20 MrCon wrote:
On February 10 2012 01:00 Biff The Understudy wrote: 1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously.
GSL stream is free. GSL has no ads and its sponsor is a Korean one, marketed for the Korean audience. There is a billion of free contents for sc2, don't act like GOM having paid vods is what prevented you to get interested in sc2 ><
Oh yeah, I mixed up GSL and GOM.
Well, I don't know anything. Just that I can't watch the biggest league without paying or registering on some obscure website. When I want to look at OSL, I just wait for one of the 6 streams or the youtube vod. There is no such things with major Korean league, apparently. Except that, there are apparently a zillion foreign cup that all have kind of similar names with players that I don't know. Seriously if BW scene had been like SC2 is nowadays, I would have never bothered to watch it. And I would have certainly not paid to have my OSL vods. I am a huge fan and I still wouldn't.
I wouldn't have started BW by watching the foreign scene, and as much as I wanted to see Boxer instead of Idra or Fenix, I am kind of curious to see the final of a GSL but really not by random people in a random cup. You get into these things later.
You sir are a huge troll bent on doing as much missinformation and spewing dumb false arguments everywhere. GSL stream is free, VOD's are not. You don't have to register on some obscure website to watch GSL ( u can log in with twitter/facebook) or MLG. I get that you don't like SC2 so just don't bother doing missinformation and ignore it. We don't really need a "huge fan" who can't pay 5$ for VOD's and can't be arsed to watch free streams even thou his so called heroes Boxer/nada are playing in those cups.
Foreginer cups actually are usually filled with nothing but VERY well know sc2 players. There are actually tons of threads about people complaining that other players don't get a chance to play in foreign cups due to the fact there are no free spots/qualificatins.
TL;DR Stop spreading false information, and if u don't like SC2 stop posting in SC2 General.
LOL. Hey dude, I've been there for four years and I have 35 times more post than you on this website. So maybe don't talk to me as if I just arrived there and knew nothing.
I don't say that the scene is this way or that way. I say that, as much as I have been caught in BW because precisely the biggest league were easy to access and free, I didn't get into watching SC2 because:
1- The biggest league is not free. Ok, maybe it is IF you register on GOMIdon'tknnowwhat and catch the exact time, and if you don't you won't find the VOD on youtube anyway.
2- It's not exciting to watch small leagues when you don't know the game well.
That's not misinformation, it's not true or false, it's just my experience. Maybe I am wrong, but still, I am not a SC2 fan, the scene didn't catch me, while it should. I would have watched the GSL if it was on youtube, because that's the one I know (don't know any other cup name), and maybe from then, I would have started to get interested. Starting with EWN (?) or IMBA (?), that's a bit harder than by a huge korean tournament.
I didn't start watching BW because of Idra. Actually, I never watched him at all, except in TSL. I got interested because, as a clueless noob, I found OSL final with people like Savior, Bisu or Oov. From then, I started to learn more. But it had to be OSL. Had it been BW equivalent of Zotac (?) cup, I wouldn't have bothered.
So my point is that if on top of that, you had to pay to watch EWN and IMBA (whatever they are), people like me would be even more unlikely to get interested. GOM locking the GSL and asking people to pay is hurting esports.
On February 10 2012 02:26 Slusher wrote: I would consider any reasonable fee. For me, and for a lot of people, the GSL is already PPV considering they offer no free version of the vods and the time of night they air. That said even for free I'm only interested in live events, I know my opinion isn't universal but I think now is as good a time as any to say how disappointed I was when Fuck Slasher was cancelled in favor of online tournaments.
My arguement against only paying for live events is TSL3. Would you have paid for it? I would have. High quality is what people should pay for; whether it is a LAN or online tournament.
Nope. I'll give you that the way they hyped each series up for at least a week before hand did make it significantly better than most online tournaments but I personally just can't get hype about stuff that does not appear live. Perfect example is the new code A second stream, which I've already gone into detail on the gom forum so I'll be breif.
I know the two guys are in the booths in the studio playing, just like the main stream players, but there is something so sterile about a guy back in the offices casting it with no camera shots of the players that I just can't get hype about it. I tell myself it's a live game but I just can't get into it, there is something about seeing/hearing the crowd, and seeing the players on camera that makes it so much better to me.
When you pay for UFC, WWE or any sport package, you know what you're getting. With eSports, you don't. Some events are great, and some have magnitudes of problems. Until there is a 95% gaurnatee of a consistent product, it's hard to ask for money like that.
I mean, I watch 15-20 hours of starcraft/week. I pay for GSL season tickets. But the fact is... I can't watch as much NFL football as I can starcraft. It boggles my mind that I can watch hours of NEW starcraft from top players EVERY DAY. There are more new SC2 matches I want to watch than I have time for.
I honestly do feel like I am getting far more than I am paying for. Well, maybe. I guess I don't know how much is being made off of ads. I'm assuming not very much.
Listen... I love all the constant SC2. The fact is though... it is almost too free. I am consuming massive amounts of content... far more time than I spend watching football(just because its only in the fall... and only 1 day/week). Either the streamers/organizers need to be making more on ads... or they do need to start charging.
I want esports to succeed and I'm not going to lie on this board and say that I wouldn't pay for MLG/IPL/etc. I would pay provided I get lifetime HD VoD access(that has an autoplay feature like GomTV, so I can turn it on and watch for multiple hours and not have to go hit 'play' between each match) and never any speed issues when watching a live stream.
So yeah, I've got cash in my pocket that I want to spend on quality SC2. To me though, I'm only going to pay for these if they have TOP players. There needs to be much more incentive for every single top korean to want to be in every single one of these leagues.
On February 10 2012 02:41 Brad wrote: When you pay for UFC, WWE or any sport package, you know what you're getting. With eSports, you don't. Some events are great, and some have magnitudes of problems. Until there is a 95% gaurnatee of a consistent product, it's hard to ask for money like that.
This is a pretty good point. Even if the fights suck, at least you're guaranteed a good production. SC2 productions have been hit or miss even (outside of GSL) within the same company (although the major ones have been a lot better as of late.)
On February 10 2012 01:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On February 10 2012 01:20 MrCon wrote:
On February 10 2012 01:00 Biff The Understudy wrote: 1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously.
GSL stream is free. GSL has no ads and its sponsor is a Korean one, marketed for the Korean audience. There is a billion of free contents for sc2, don't act like GOM having paid vods is what prevented you to get interested in sc2 ><
Oh yeah, I mixed up GSL and GOM.
Well, I don't know anything. Just that I can't watch the biggest league without paying or registering on some obscure website. When I want to look at OSL, I just wait for one of the 6 streams or the youtube vod. There is no such things with major Korean league, apparently. Except that, there are apparently a zillion foreign cup that all have kind of similar names with players that I don't know. Seriously if BW scene had been like SC2 is nowadays, I would have never bothered to watch it. And I would have certainly not paid to have my OSL vods. I am a huge fan and I still wouldn't.
I wouldn't have started BW by watching the foreign scene, and as much as I wanted to see Boxer instead of Idra or Fenix, I am kind of curious to see the final of a GSL but really not by random people in a random cup. You get into these things later.
You sir are a huge troll bent on doing as much missinformation and spewing dumb false arguments everywhere. GSL stream is free, VOD's are not. You don't have to register on some obscure website to watch GSL ( u can log in with twitter/facebook) or MLG. I get that you don't like SC2 so just don't bother doing missinformation and ignore it. We don't really need a "huge fan" who can't pay 5$ for VOD's and can't be arsed to watch free streams even thou his so called heroes Boxer/nada are playing in those cups.
Foreginer cups actually are usually filled with nothing but VERY well know sc2 players. There are actually tons of threads about people complaining that other players don't get a chance to play in foreign cups due to the fact there are no free spots/qualificatins.
TL;DR Stop spreading false information, and if u don't like SC2 stop posting in SC2 General.
LOL. Hey dude, I've been there for four years and I have 35 times more post than you on this website. So maybe don't talk to me as if I just arrived there and knew nothing.
I don't say that the scene is this way or that way. I say that, as much as I have been caught in BW because precisely the biggest league were easy to access and free, I didn't get into watching SC2 because:
1- The biggest league is not free. Ok, maybe it is IF you register on GOMIdon'tknnowwhat and catch the exact time, and if you don't you won't find the VOD on youtube anyway.
2- It's not exciting to watch small leagues when you don't know the game well.
That's not misinformation, it's not true or false, it's just my experience. Maybe I am wrong, but still, I am not a SC2 fan, the scene didn't catch me, while it should. I would have watched the GSL if it was on youtube, because that's the one I know (don't know any other cup name), and maybe from then, I would have started to get interested. Starting with EWN (?) or IMBA (?), that's a bit harder than by a huge korean tournament.
I didn't start watching BW because of Idra. Actually, I never watched him at all, except in TSL. I got interested because, as a clueless noob, I found OSL final with people like Savior, Bisu or Oov. From then, I started to learn more. But it had to be OSL. Had it been BW equivalent of Zotac (?) cup, I wouldn't have bothered.
So my point is that if on top of that, you had to pay to watch EWN and IMBA (whatever they are), people like me would be even more unlikely to get interested. GOM locking the GSL and asking people to pay is hurting esports.
So you don't know anything about the SC2 scene. That's fine. Your opinion on it really has no value in this thread then.
Times have changed since OSL and Youtube VODs and that model doesn't work for SC2.
I think it would be too hard to get people to pay for sc2 on a more frequent basis because people expect free streams and it's hard to change that. I know for myself, I only pay for GSL because it's the only tourney I feel has the skill level and production that is worth my money. I know that if foreign tourneys made it ppv, I just wouldn't watch them, unless the foreign scene's skill drastically improved.
On February 10 2012 02:45 TBone- wrote: How will we know when this is viable to do? I mean I feel like if we did monetize to quickly we could burst.
It's not easy but organizations have or should have people who are capable of measuring the economic impact of making this decision. When they feel that cost of the lost total # of viewers on advertising/sponsorship and other costs (negative publicity) is less than the benefits of the increased revenue someone will pull the trigger. Too soon and yes that company WILL fail more times than not because its almost impossible to recover from such a move.
On February 10 2012 02:54 Swiv wrote: i think monetizing sc2 should be achiveved by aquiring more viewers rather than by squeezing out the money of the existing viewers
Completely agree. If you charge more, you have to give more. Not just charge more for the same stuff that we're used to seeing. If i'm going to pay ppv style for HD streams of Mlg etc... every game I watch better be some revolutionary shit.
Basically, if you're going to make me pay more, you had better guarantee that it's worth it by paying players more to attract the best talent and the best of skill, beyond what we already have seen. I'm not gona pay for more pixels.
you cant compare the starcraft market to the UFC. there are soo many different SC2 tournaments, but only one UFC. As an MMA fan it is easy to pay for one PPV ticket, but for SC2 most people can`t afford to pay for all the different events. So the money of the whole scene would get devided. IEM, GSL, MLG, DREAMHACK, ASUS ROG, ESWC, TSL, SHOUTCRAFT would not be able to get money from all the generally paying sc2 Fans - unlike the UFC. So each organisation ends up with a small part of the money in the market and at teh same time shrink the market, because of the entry barrier, which a PPV is.
I think we need a complete different model. Maybe buy a twitch.tv esports package, which costs like 150 Dollar/years and gives HD livestream access & VoDs for all the major esports events. It could also be devided for the different games. An SC2 ticket, a LOL ticket, a DotA2 ticket, a counter strike ticket ...
Twitch.tv would get all the money from the whole scene and therefore have a very strong position when it comes to broadcast rights negotiations with the individual leagues.
edit: even then the entry barrier for new fans is up and that`s still bad for the growth of the scene.
On February 10 2012 03:01 zul wrote: you cant compare the starcraft market to the UFC. there are soo many different SC2 tournaments, but only one UFC. As an MMA fan it is easy to pay for one PPV ticket, but for SC2 most people can`t afford to pay for all the different events. So the money of the whole scene would get devided. IEM, GSL, MLG, DREAMHACK, ASUS ROG, ESWC, TSL, SHOUTCRAFT would not be able to get money from all the generally paying sc2 Fans - unlike the UFC. So each organisation ends up with a small part of the money in the market and at teh same time shrink the market, because of the entry barrier, which a PPV is.
I think we need a complete different model. Maybe buy a twitch.tv esports package, which costs like 150 Dollar/years and gives HD livestream access & VoDs for all the major esports events. It could also be devided for the different games. An SC2 ticket, a LOL ticket, a DotA2 ticket, a counter strike ticket ...
Twitch.tv would get all the money from the whole scene and therefore have a very strong position when it comes to broadcast rights negotiations with the individual leagues.
I doubt tournaments and blizzard would want to give up their power like that.
On February 10 2012 03:01 zul wrote: you cant compare the starcraft market to the UFC. there are soo many different SC2 tournaments, but only one UFC. As an MMA fan it is easy to pay for one PPV ticket, but for SC2 most people can`t afford to pay for all the different events. So the money of the whole scene would get devided. IEM, GSL, MLG, DREAMHACK, ASUS ROG, ESWC, TSL, SHOUTCRAFT would not be able to get money from all the generally paying sc2 Fans - unlike the UFC. So each organisation ends up with a small part of the money in the market and at teh same time shrink the market, because of the entry barrier, which a PPV is.
I think we need a complete different model. Maybe buy a twitch.tv esports package, which costs like 150 Dollar/years and gives HD livestream access & VoDs for all the major esports events. It could also be devided for the different games. An SC2 ticket, a LOL ticket, a DotA2 ticket, a counter strike ticket ...
Twitch.tv would get all the money from the whole scene and therefore have a very strong position when it comes to broadcast rights negotiations with the individual leagues.
edit: even then the entry barrier for new fans is up and that`s still bad for the growth of the scene.
I don't know a single person who would pay 150 dollars/year for SC2 content.
i think when the sponsors such as a company like target(cause i cant think of any other) comes out and they sponosor an event. dont you think the event will have enough money and be sustained without revanue from viewers
On February 10 2012 03:01 zul wrote: you cant compare the starcraft market to the UFC. there are soo many different SC2 tournaments, but only one UFC. As an MMA fan it is easy to pay for one PPV ticket, but for SC2 most people can`t afford to pay for all the different events. So the money of the whole scene would get devided. IEM, GSL, MLG, DREAMHACK, ASUS ROG, ESWC, TSL, SHOUTCRAFT would not be able to get money from all the generally paying sc2 Fans - unlike the UFC. So each organisation ends up with a small part of the money in the market and at teh same time shrink the market, because of the entry barrier, which a PPV is.
I think we need a complete different model. Maybe buy a twitch.tv esports package, which costs like 150 Dollar/years and gives HD livestream access & VoDs for all the major esports events. It could also be devided for the different games. An SC2 ticket, a LOL ticket, a DotA2 ticket, a counter strike ticket ...
Twitch.tv would get all the money from the whole scene and therefore have a very strong position when it comes to broadcast rights negotiations with the individual leagues.
edit: even then the entry barrier for new fans is up and that`s still bad for the growth of the scene.
I don't know a single person who would pay 150 dollars/year for SC2 content.
On February 10 2012 03:01 zul wrote: you cant compare the starcraft market to the UFC. there are soo many different SC2 tournaments, but only one UFC. As an MMA fan it is easy to pay for one PPV ticket, but for SC2 most people can`t afford to pay for all the different events. So the money of the whole scene would get devided. IEM, GSL, MLG, DREAMHACK, ASUS ROG, ESWC, TSL, SHOUTCRAFT would not be able to get money from all the generally paying sc2 Fans - unlike the UFC. So each organisation ends up with a small part of the money in the market and at teh same time shrink the market, because of the entry barrier, which a PPV is.
I think we need a complete different model. Maybe buy a twitch.tv esports package, which costs like 150 Dollar/years and gives HD livestream access & VoDs for all the major esports events. It could also be devided for the different games. An SC2 ticket, a LOL ticket, a DotA2 ticket, a counter strike ticket ...
Twitch.tv would get all the money from the whole scene and therefore have a very strong position when it comes to broadcast rights negotiations with the individual leagues.
edit: even then the entry barrier for new fans is up and that`s still bad for the growth of the scene.
I don't know a single person who would pay 150 dollars/year for SC2 content.
ever checked the GOM tv prizes?
And then you add on 25$ for nasl and I'm not familiar with mlg's costs.
There is still a lot of growing that needs to occur. Many gamers are coming out of the wood work but it may be too soon to look at applying a "PPV" model. I think that would result in having a lot of new comers drop off the radar completely. More viewings would equal more revenue, perhaps the focus should remain on further promoting events and perhaps looking at the "Barcrafts" to assist in expanding its markets. As an SC players we know what happens when you get to greedy
On February 10 2012 02:14 Sapphire.lux wrote: PPV will make it highly unlikely that new people will get in to SC2 and a very large part of the ones already in will leave. The only outcome, IMO, is complete death.
I don't want to offend anyone but the comparison with MMA is ... wrong, to be gentle. MMA is about two men fighting each other, something that we all did since the day we could walk. Its in our nature as human beings (living beings for that matter). SC2, is a FUCKING VIDEO GAME, a quite complicated one at that. You need a lot of time to understand what the hell is going on at the most basic level, can anybody be so cretin to think that mr Joe will "just give SC2 a shot" (pay for something that he barely understands)
I agree with Liquid`Nazgul on all points.
It will take some visionary thinking to make eSports profitable, just like in any other business.If you can't think of anything other then directly charging the viewer? You die.
I also have to laugh at some posters that present the matra of "spoiled" fans/ charity/ etc. In every little thing in life (and business) is never, ever ever the fault of the "people"/ community. If something fails is the complete and absolute responsibility of those at the top, in other word, bad business-man.
/rant :p
I disagree that SC2 will die or NOT grow if you charge for quality streams. The fans grow because they play the game or are brought on by other fans. This happens regardless.
You're asking for too much money for too little content. You can't ask for $25 for just one weekend and expect that you'll make a huge profit. The only people that would pay for that, already do.
On February 10 2012 02:54 Swiv wrote: i think monetizing sc2 should be achiveved by aquiring more viewers rather than by squeezing out the money of the existing viewers
Completely agree. If you charge more, you have to give more. Not just charge more for the same stuff that we're used to seeing. If i'm going to pay ppv style for HD streams of Mlg etc... every game I watch better be some revolutionary shit.
Basically, if you're going to make me pay more, you had better guarantee that it's worth it by paying players more to attract the best talent and the best of skill, beyond what we already have seen. I'm not gona pay for more pixels.
Quite frankly, you're acting way too entitled. The stuff you're used to seeing for free costs a lot of money to produce and they're not making a profit. Not only that, even though you're used to watching it for free, it does have a value that justifies them charging us for it. You can't demand that a business provide you with a service that isn't financially viable for the business.
On another note, this thread has motivated me to go to a Gamestop and get a yearly MLG gold membership. I also paid for the GSL yearly ticket. I think anyone else who values professional SC2 should also contribute some money for what they watch.
People can talk ads all they want, but are the revenues generated through that actually enough to cover all the costs of production, the (sometimes very high) price-money and still leave enough behind to get a good return on investment? That will actually decide whether the SC2-proscene has any chance of survival in the long run. The problem is that they target an audience that feels entitled to get just about anything for free, so I doubt selling tickets of any kind will ever be a major part of the income.
On February 10 2012 03:16 Lann555 wrote: People can talk ads all they want, but are the revenues generated through that actually enough to cover all the costs of production, the (sometimes very high) price-money and still leave enough behind to get a good return on investment? That will actually decide whether the SC2-proscene has any chance of survival in the long run. The problem is that they target an audience that feels entitled to get just about anything for free, so I doubt selling tickets of any kind will ever be a major part of the income.
On February 10 2012 03:01 zul wrote: you cant compare the starcraft market to the UFC. there are soo many different SC2 tournaments, but only one UFC. As an MMA fan it is easy to pay for one PPV ticket, but for SC2 most people can`t afford to pay for all the different events. So the money of the whole scene would get devided. IEM, GSL, MLG, DREAMHACK, ASUS ROG, ESWC, TSL, SHOUTCRAFT would not be able to get money from all the generally paying sc2 Fans - unlike the UFC. So each organisation ends up with a small part of the money in the market and at teh same time shrink the market, because of the entry barrier, which a PPV is.
I think we need a complete different model. Maybe buy a twitch.tv esports package, which costs like 150 Dollar/years and gives HD livestream access & VoDs for all the major esports events. It could also be devided for the different games. An SC2 ticket, a LOL ticket, a DotA2 ticket, a counter strike ticket ...
Twitch.tv would get all the money from the whole scene and therefore have a very strong position when it comes to broadcast rights negotiations with the individual leagues.
edit: even then the entry barrier for new fans is up and that`s still bad for the growth of the scene.
I don't know a single person who would pay 150 dollars/year for SC2 content.
ever checked the GOM tv prizes?
GOM is undeniably the highest level of play and competition, they have earned a right to charge for their service. Not to mention their quality is miles above most other tournaments. Also they offer a free stream and youre allowed to play monthly, no where near 150 dollars. I don't have to pay fees to watch football and basketball yet I'm fairly sure those organizations are making money.
I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
Too many people, even a few on TL, think anything that exists to make money is inherently evil and should be avoided. It's immature and adolescent reasoning, that the things they love should be free to them. Esports will NEVER SUCCEEDED ANYWHERE, as long as people aren't willing to spend money on it. Liquid Tyler often brings this up, but it never really gets talked about. People need to loosen the purse strings a bit.
Most people know that the age group for sc2 is probably 13-25 is the biggest group. Mostly students. Now take those numbers, how students always have an extra $20-40? How many students have the option to spend $20-40 on events instead of buying food or paying for gas? How many students are willing to spend an extra $20-40 a month on starcraft events via PPV? I'm content for paying for 1 at and thats a whole yearly payment, mostly money I received for xmas. GSL is the only one that is doing this and not failing, why? Because they know we will buy the tickets and that we get $200 worth of content over a whole year, now with how many events are I think it would be best to offer free HQ for foreigner tournies, and charge $5 for vods, or do what IEM does which will charge 5 euros for HQ for a tourny for 3 days. Now 5 euros for 3 days is pretty managable as a college student. But I usually end up watching the regular SQ. The first foreign company to do this will ultimately fail because their target group won't be willing to spend that money every month for mediocre games/casters. With GSL they have the line up, and a whole system for x amount of months. Kinda like with what NASL did, the first season was ok, the second was :S, and who knows about the 3rd season, I don't give them past 4 seasons before its ultimately gone. Charging your biggest demographic this amount of money everymonth will eventually in most cases will ultimately drain the person of funds they would normally use for something else, or to buy a ticket where you get xx amount of content over xx amount of months. Organizations talking about this wanting to charge $20 for an event aka MLG, it would be cheaper for ppl to buy their shitty gold passes just for the HQ, and ppl who used to buy the $11.99 silver 3 month pass for HQ wouldn't pay $20 an event. Companies even thinking about doing this are probably aren't going to succeed. and GSL will be the only one left like Chill said.
On February 10 2012 01:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On February 10 2012 01:20 MrCon wrote:
On February 10 2012 01:00 Biff The Understudy wrote: 1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously.
GSL stream is free. GSL has no ads and its sponsor is a Korean one, marketed for the Korean audience. There is a billion of free contents for sc2, don't act like GOM having paid vods is what prevented you to get interested in sc2 ><
Oh yeah, I mixed up GSL and GOM.
Well, I don't know anything. Just that I can't watch the biggest league without paying or registering on some obscure website. When I want to look at OSL, I just wait for one of the 6 streams or the youtube vod. There is no such things with major Korean league, apparently. Except that, there are apparently a zillion foreign cup that all have kind of similar names with players that I don't know. Seriously if BW scene had been like SC2 is nowadays, I would have never bothered to watch it. And I would have certainly not paid to have my OSL vods. I am a huge fan and I still wouldn't.
I wouldn't have started BW by watching the foreign scene, and as much as I wanted to see Boxer instead of Idra or Fenix, I am kind of curious to see the final of a GSL but really not by random people in a random cup. You get into these things later.
You sir are a huge troll bent on doing as much missinformation and spewing dumb false arguments everywhere. GSL stream is free, VOD's are not. You don't have to register on some obscure website to watch GSL ( u can log in with twitter/facebook) or MLG. I get that you don't like SC2 so just don't bother doing missinformation and ignore it. We don't really need a "huge fan" who can't pay 5$ for VOD's and can't be arsed to watch free streams even thou his so called heroes Boxer/nada are playing in those cups.
Foreginer cups actually are usually filled with nothing but VERY well know sc2 players. There are actually tons of threads about people complaining that other players don't get a chance to play in foreign cups due to the fact there are no free spots/qualificatins.
TL;DR Stop spreading false information, and if u don't like SC2 stop posting in SC2 General.
LOL. Hey dude, I've been there for four years and I have 35 times more post than you on this website. So maybe don't talk to me as if I just arrived there and knew nothing.
I don't say that the scene is this way or that way. I say that, as much as I have been caught in BW because precisely the biggest league were easy to access and free, I didn't get into watching SC2 because:
1- The biggest league is not free. Ok, maybe it is IF you register on GOMIdon'tknnowwhat and catch the exact time, and if you don't you won't find the VOD on youtube anyway.
2- It's not exciting to watch small leagues when you don't know the game well.
That's not misinformation, it's not true or false, it's just my experience. Maybe I am wrong, but still, I am not a SC2 fan, the scene didn't catch me, while it should. I would have watched the GSL if it was on youtube, because that's the one I know (don't know any other cup name), and maybe from then, I would have started to get interested. Starting with EWN (?) or IMBA (?), that's a bit harder than by a huge korean tournament.
I didn't start watching BW because of Idra. Actually, I never watched him at all, except in TSL. I got interested because, as a clueless noob, I found OSL final with people like Savior, Bisu or Oov. From then, I started to learn more. But it had to be OSL. Had it been BW equivalent of Zotac (?) cup, I wouldn't have bothered.
So my point is that if on top of that, you had to pay to watch EWN and IMBA (whatever they are), people like me would be even more unlikely to get interested. GOM locking the GSL and asking people to pay is hurting esports.
The fact that you haven't gotten into the SC2 scene is exactly the point.
People don't earn in revenue much, if any, money from people simply watching. You are essentially saying you would get into SC2 if it was free, but what value does that add to the scene in terms of monetization? Because you aren't willing to pay for any streams, there is no way to earn anything off your viewership. Adverts won't make nearly enough due to the fact that there isn't a critical mass of viewers, adding one or two more isn't going to change it. There needs to be a revolution, and I don't see that huge revolution coming.
Even if you got into the SC2 scene, all it would add is another viewership number, that's it. There is no money to be made here. This is why SC2 as an e-sport is in a lot of trouble right now, and because there is a large demographic of people who either cannot or will not pay for content, they are essentially irrelevant to the discussion of monetization. I would say they are relevant if they can bring in enough new fans to keep the ball rolling a-la social media style models, but I don't see that happening.
The bottom line here is adding new viewers is not enough, unless we start to hit in the millions of unique viewers. It doesn't matter how many new people are attracted to the scene because it won't hit that critical mass. The scene can try to go for broke and aim for that; it may even succeed. But if the scene does aim for this and misses, the whole thing is going to crash and burn oh so very fast.
The only other solution is consolidation on your small, niche market. There are people like me who are willing to pay for exceptional content, and as a lot of people mentioned here already, GSL seems to have gotten it right. It's a league format with a good amount of content, spread out over a number of days that deliver good games with good production values. I think barely enough people have showed that they are both willing and able to pay for that, if it is profitable or not is another matter entirely.
Bottom line:
-GOM has put together a high value-for-dollar product that people seem to be willing to pay for. -Other tournaments have huge viewership numbers. -High viewership alone accomplishes nothing, since even if you make fans of the scene, sport, or whatever, it generates no money from them, and perhaps it is a given that such people cannot because they cannot afford it or are unwilling to pay. -Viewership is nowhere near the critical mass (and won't be in the foreseeable future) to make ad-revenue only style models or social media models work. -Other substitutes (e.g. netflix, live events in local areas, etc.) exist that many people are more willing to spend money on and feel they get more value for. [This in part is what makes the scene niche. You have to really love it to spend anything on it, right?]
Some leagues will just have to die off, some players retire and some teams disband. The scene will consolidate, and maybe the western scene will die since no league has been able to put together something as attractive as GOM has. There may be room for 2 big tournaments, perhaps, at most, and GOM I think has already solidified itself as one of them. At this point there is no easy solution for the scene as a whole.
On February 10 2012 03:01 zul wrote: you cant compare the starcraft market to the UFC. there are soo many different SC2 tournaments, but only one UFC. As an MMA fan it is easy to pay for one PPV ticket, but for SC2 most people can`t afford to pay for all the different events. So the money of the whole scene would get devided. IEM, GSL, MLG, DREAMHACK, ASUS ROG, ESWC, TSL, SHOUTCRAFT would not be able to get money from all the generally paying sc2 Fans - unlike the UFC. So each organisation ends up with a small part of the money in the market and at teh same time shrink the market, because of the entry barrier, which a PPV is.
I think we need a complete different model. Maybe buy a twitch.tv esports package, which costs like 150 Dollar/years and gives HD livestream access & VoDs for all the major esports events. It could also be devided for the different games. An SC2 ticket, a LOL ticket, a DotA2 ticket, a counter strike ticket ...
Twitch.tv would get all the money from the whole scene and therefore have a very strong position when it comes to broadcast rights negotiations with the individual leagues.
edit: even then the entry barrier for new fans is up and that`s still bad for the growth of the scene.
So what are Pride, NAGA, KOTC, Strikeforce, Bellator Fighting Championships, DREAM, USGrappling, Grappler's Quest, UWC, etc. etc. etc.
There are TONS of MMA leagues, just because you only know about UFC doesn't make that the only one.
Quite frankly, you're acting way too entitled. The stuff you're used to seeing for free costs a lot of money to produce and they're not making a profit. Not only that, even though you're used to watching it for free, it does have a value that justifies them charging us for it. You can't demand that a business provide you with a service that isn't financially viable for the business.
On another note, this thread has motivated me to go to a Gamestop and get a yearly MLG gold membership. I also paid for the GSL yearly ticket. I think anyone else who values professional SC2 should also contribute some money for what they watch.
How much do you expect people to pay though? Monthly GSL Premium is $240 per year without the team league. You can cut that down by going with the light pass and skipping all the mini-tournaments and benefits like dual-stream. If all the other tournaments started charging $5-10 for a weekend pass, that adds up to a ridiculous amount of money per year for people on a budget, like students.
Like I mentioned before, I pay $100 for an entire year of Netflix streaming with more content than I can hope to watch.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Hmmm I don't see how that's a problem. I've never paid a penny for anything related to this game apart from buying the game itself, and never will either. Hence no one needs to do that and it's their decision and so on. I definitely think it's wrong to charge money to watch a game I've bought so I'll never pay anything for it, and I've had this stance for ever
On February 10 2012 03:18 Boblhead wrote: Most people know that the age group for sc2 is probably 13-25 is the biggest group. Mostly students. Now take those numbers, how students always have an extra $20-40? How many students have the option to spend $20-40 on events instead of buying food or paying for gas? How many students are willing to spend an extra $20-40 a month on starcraft events via PPV? I'm content for paying for 1 at and thats a whole yearly payment, mostly money I received for xmas. GSL is the only one that is doing this and not failing, why? Because they know we will buy the tickets and that we get $200 worth of content over a whole year, now with how many events are I think it would be best to offer free HQ for foreigner tournies, and charge $5 for vods, or do what IEM does which will charge 5 euros for HQ for a tourny for 3 days. Now 5 euros for 3 days is pretty managable as a college student. But I usually end up watching the regular SQ. The first foreign company to do this will ultimately fail because their target group won't be willing to spend that money every month for mediocre games/casters. With GSL they have the line up, and a whole system for x amount of months. Kinda like with what NASL did, the first season was ok, the second was :S, and who knows about the 3rd season, I don't give them past 4 seasons before its ultimately gone. Charging your biggest demographic this amount of money everymonth will eventually in most cases will ultimately drain the person of funds they would normally use for something else, or to buy a ticket where you get xx amount of content over xx amount of months. Organizations talking about this wanting to charge $20 for an event aka MLG, it would be cheaper for ppl to buy their shitty gold passes just for the HQ, and ppl who used to buy the $11.99 silver 3 month pass for HQ wouldn't pay $20 an event. Companies even thinking about doing this are probably aren't going to succeed. and GSL will be the only one left like Chill said.
What's to stop 5-6 college students from banding up and watching together? That's less than $5 per person.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Boblhead wrote: Most people know that the age group for sc2 is probably 13-25 is the biggest group. Mostly students. Now take those numbers, how students always have an extra $20-40? How many students have the option to spend $20-40 on events instead of buying food or paying for gas? How many students are willing to spend an extra $20-40 a month on starcraft events via PPV? I'm content for paying for 1 at and thats a whole yearly payment, mostly money I received for xmas. GSL is the only one that is doing this and not failing, why? Because they know we will buy the tickets and that we get $200 worth of content over a whole year, now with how many events are I think it would be best to offer free HQ for foreigner tournies, and charge $5 for vods, or do what IEM does which will charge 5 euros for HQ for a tourny for 3 days. Now 5 euros for 3 days is pretty managable as a college student. But I usually end up watching the regular SQ. The first foreign company to do this will ultimately fail because their target group won't be willing to spend that money every month for mediocre games/casters. With GSL they have the line up, and a whole system for x amount of months. Kinda like with what NASL did, the first season was ok, the second was :S, and who knows about the 3rd season, I don't give them past 4 seasons before its ultimately gone. Charging your biggest demographic this amount of money everymonth will eventually in most cases will ultimately drain the person of funds they would normally use for something else, or to buy a ticket where you get xx amount of content over xx amount of months. Organizations talking about this wanting to charge $20 for an event aka MLG, it would be cheaper for ppl to buy their shitty gold passes just for the HQ, and ppl who used to buy the $11.99 silver 3 month pass for HQ wouldn't pay $20 an event. Companies even thinking about doing this are probably aren't going to succeed. and GSL will be the only one left like Chill said.
What's to stop 5-6 college students from banding up and watching together? That's less than $5 per person.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Well hopefully you also admit that if everyone took your stance, professional SC2 would eventually die off.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Boblhead wrote: Most people know that the age group for sc2 is probably 13-25 is the biggest group. Mostly students. Now take those numbers, how students always have an extra $20-40? How many students have the option to spend $20-40 on events instead of buying food or paying for gas? How many students are willing to spend an extra $20-40 a month on starcraft events via PPV? I'm content for paying for 1 at and thats a whole yearly payment, mostly money I received for xmas. GSL is the only one that is doing this and not failing, why? Because they know we will buy the tickets and that we get $200 worth of content over a whole year, now with how many events are I think it would be best to offer free HQ for foreigner tournies, and charge $5 for vods, or do what IEM does which will charge 5 euros for HQ for a tourny for 3 days. Now 5 euros for 3 days is pretty managable as a college student. But I usually end up watching the regular SQ. The first foreign company to do this will ultimately fail because their target group won't be willing to spend that money every month for mediocre games/casters. With GSL they have the line up, and a whole system for x amount of months. Kinda like with what NASL did, the first season was ok, the second was :S, and who knows about the 3rd season, I don't give them past 4 seasons before its ultimately gone. Charging your biggest demographic this amount of money everymonth will eventually in most cases will ultimately drain the person of funds they would normally use for something else, or to buy a ticket where you get xx amount of content over xx amount of months. Organizations talking about this wanting to charge $20 for an event aka MLG, it would be cheaper for ppl to buy their shitty gold passes just for the HQ, and ppl who used to buy the $11.99 silver 3 month pass for HQ wouldn't pay $20 an event. Companies even thinking about doing this are probably aren't going to succeed. and GSL will be the only one left like Chill said.
What's to stop 5-6 college students from banding up and watching together? That's less than $5 per person.
Paying $5 to goto someone elses house to watch a tourney is a negative for me, I'm not going to spend 3 days at someone else's house watching the game. For a finals maybe, but that alone isn't worth spending $5 for a bo7 that potentially isn't going to be good. I can only name like 3 finals that were decent, the others were just 4-0 or 4-1, one of those finals was on DreamHacks stream that was free 1080p.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
Paid for every season of GSL paid for most(?) so far seasons of MLG bought starcraft (x3) or so (one for each region) paid for server+domain for my team (still) LR a bit etc
I do think eSports (or rather starcraft) is my passion... I still think I need to do more though
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Well hopefully you also admit that if everyone took your stance, professional SC2 would eventually die off.
In the west maybe, which I am completely fine with. I watch for highest level play, which is in Korea. As long as its fine in Korea, idgaf about the rest of the world to be honest
On February 10 2012 03:18 Boblhead wrote: Most people know that the age group for sc2 is probably 13-25 is the biggest group. Mostly students. Now take those numbers, how students always have an extra $20-40? How many students have the option to spend $20-40 on events instead of buying food or paying for gas? How many students are willing to spend an extra $20-40 a month on starcraft events via PPV? I'm content for paying for 1 at and thats a whole yearly payment, mostly money I received for xmas. GSL is the only one that is doing this and not failing, why? Because they know we will buy the tickets and that we get $200 worth of content over a whole year, now with how many events are I think it would be best to offer free HQ for foreigner tournies, and charge $5 for vods, or do what IEM does which will charge 5 euros for HQ for a tourny for 3 days. Now 5 euros for 3 days is pretty managable as a college student. But I usually end up watching the regular SQ. The first foreign company to do this will ultimately fail because their target group won't be willing to spend that money every month for mediocre games/casters. With GSL they have the line up, and a whole system for x amount of months. Kinda like with what NASL did, the first season was ok, the second was :S, and who knows about the 3rd season, I don't give them past 4 seasons before its ultimately gone. Charging your biggest demographic this amount of money everymonth will eventually in most cases will ultimately drain the person of funds they would normally use for something else, or to buy a ticket where you get xx amount of content over xx amount of months. Organizations talking about this wanting to charge $20 for an event aka MLG, it would be cheaper for ppl to buy their shitty gold passes just for the HQ, and ppl who used to buy the $11.99 silver 3 month pass for HQ wouldn't pay $20 an event. Companies even thinking about doing this are probably aren't going to succeed. and GSL will be the only one left like Chill said.
What's to stop 5-6 college students from banding up and watching together? That's less than $5 per person.
Thats more than I am willing to spend which is 0$
It doesn't matter if you are a viewer or not then, at the end of the day. Since no one earns anything of value from you, since the SC2 as a spectator sport a whole gets little to no return, it is irrelevant if you watch or not. That's really the bottom line when it comes to monetization. If too many people share that same opinion, then the pro scene is already dead, and we just haven't realized it yet.
I wonder what the viewership numbers are like if you remove people who 'only' watch the streams because they cannot afford or refuse to pay for any type of streaming. That would probably give us a better idea of the true health of the industry; I suspect it is rather sickly.
On February 10 2012 03:30 Doodsmack wrote:Well hopefully you also admit that if everyone took your stance, professional SC2 would eventually die off.
I'm still paying for GSL and will continue to as long as it remains entertaining enough to be worth it. I won't pay $5-10 for a weekend of IEM, MLG, etc. though.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Boblhead wrote: Most people know that the age group for sc2 is probably 13-25 is the biggest group. Mostly students. Now take those numbers, how students always have an extra $20-40? How many students have the option to spend $20-40 on events instead of buying food or paying for gas? How many students are willing to spend an extra $20-40 a month on starcraft events via PPV? I'm content for paying for 1 at and thats a whole yearly payment, mostly money I received for xmas. GSL is the only one that is doing this and not failing, why? Because they know we will buy the tickets and that we get $200 worth of content over a whole year, now with how many events are I think it would be best to offer free HQ for foreigner tournies, and charge $5 for vods, or do what IEM does which will charge 5 euros for HQ for a tourny for 3 days. Now 5 euros for 3 days is pretty managable as a college student. But I usually end up watching the regular SQ. The first foreign company to do this will ultimately fail because their target group won't be willing to spend that money every month for mediocre games/casters. With GSL they have the line up, and a whole system for x amount of months. Kinda like with what NASL did, the first season was ok, the second was :S, and who knows about the 3rd season, I don't give them past 4 seasons before its ultimately gone. Charging your biggest demographic this amount of money everymonth will eventually in most cases will ultimately drain the person of funds they would normally use for something else, or to buy a ticket where you get xx amount of content over xx amount of months. Organizations talking about this wanting to charge $20 for an event aka MLG, it would be cheaper for ppl to buy their shitty gold passes just for the HQ, and ppl who used to buy the $11.99 silver 3 month pass for HQ wouldn't pay $20 an event. Companies even thinking about doing this are probably aren't going to succeed. and GSL will be the only one left like Chill said.
What's to stop 5-6 college students from banding up and watching together? That's less than $5 per person.
Thats more than I am willing to spend which is 0$
It doesn't matter if you are a viewer or not then, at the end of the day. Since no one earns anything of value from you, since the SC2 as a spectator sport a whole gets little to no return, it is irrelevant if you watch or not. That's really the bottom line when it comes to monetization. If too many people share that same opinion, then the pro scene is already dead, and we just haven't realized it yet.
I wonder what the viewership numbers are like if you remove people who 'only' watch the streams because they cannot afford or refuse to pay for any type of streaming. That would probably give us a better idea of the true health of the industry; I suspect it is rather sickly.
If you would took away the people who refuse to pay or cant afford you would be left with a few hundreds, thousand max. And Im being generous when I say this I think
A third party company should come along and fill a roll much like a cable company does now. They could piece together the IPL, GSL, MLG, NASL, IEM, etc content and charge the viewers a single monthly charge for everything. The people collecting the money can pay back to the leagues based on viewership numbers during their programs.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
And we pay what, 10 dollars a month for cable and internet? And we get what, hundreds of channels and more TV shows than you can feasibly watch in a year? I'm sorry but there is a large difference between what cable TV offers and what SC2 streams are offering. When is the last time the NBA had 4 hours of downtime because of technical difficulties? When is the last time an NBA team chose to forgo their match because they were too tired or didn't think the money was worth it? Honestly, theres a vast difference in professionalism and marketability between organizations like the NBA and IPL (for instance). I think this thread more represents people in the E-Sports industry getting frustrated because they aren't making big bucks yet. I'm sorry but you aren't curing cancer, you aren't saving lives, you aren't very important on the larger scale. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. If you want to live a cushy life full of commodities, go to college, get a degree and get a meaningful job. E-sports is a hobby to most of us, not a necessity. I can play SC2 and be content, it's nice to be able to watch streams and tournaments, but my life will continue happily if all I can do is play and not watch. '
This sounds harsh, but in reality, SC2 and E-sports rank pretty low on my list of priorities.
On February 10 2012 03:44 Kfcnoob wrote: eSports is 'cool' and people are giant fans from it being so; charging for a necessary subscription service will drastically lower this.
the community exists because of the cool - just use ads.
Unfortunately production companies can't use the commodity of "cool" to pay their bills, prize pools, distribution companies, employees, venue fees, etc.
Ads don't cut it.
If a venue wants 20,000 dollars for a weekend of use, MLG doesn't get a free pass by saying, "well, we don't have any money, but shucks, people like us!"
On February 10 2012 03:43 Griddlez wrote: A third party company should come along and fill a roll much like a cable company does now. They could piece together the IPL, GSL, MLG, NASL, IEM, etc content and charge the viewers a single monthly charge for everything. The people collecting the money can pay back to the leagues based on viewership numbers during their programs.
the amount of ppl that would have to subscribe to keep all those companies happy would be in the millions for them to even turn out a profit. Plus the production would have to be stepped up soo much. Not just 2 ppl sitting in front of a black screen, or a green screened room. They would have to have studios that don't look like someone just put some shit in a garage.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I think there's this perception that companies are making money, but I doubt they are.
It's a tough spot. Monetize and people revolt and you die. Don't monetize and you slowly drown. I don't know how it's going to work. Maybe you have to completely level up the broadcast to a completely different place where people expect to pay for that quality? No idea.
Edit: No one seems to treat this as a business. There's a feeling things should be free because they want it to grow. Until we get past that and make it a business, it'll never be more than a niche market, which is fine, but it is what it is.
Couldn't agree more.
Any business without a solid plan on how they're going to earn money is doomed to fail. And yes we have been spoiled by all the free content we receive. In a way, this is much the same problem that is all over the internet; free content for the end user, hopefully ad revenue is high enough to turn a profit.
I like to think that as nerds we're typically some pretty well paid individuals, at least most I've ever know or talked to briefly are either in highly technical jobs or are in college on the way to doing so. We're engineers, coders, web designers, architects, network support staff, etc etc. Eventually I think the community at large is going to need grow up a bit and start shelling out at least a little something in order to get what we want. Hell that's the way things go for 95% of other things you want/need in the real world.
I'd be willing to pay $2 (~half a gallon of gas) or $5 (less than the cost of a mediocre lunch in my area) to be able to watch MLG for the weekend. To anyone making $1k, $2k, or $6k a month, this shouldn't be a problem and people should stop bitching about the prospect. 50,000 viewers for MLG paying $2 each would go along way to making esports legitimate.
I for one would gladly pay to watch a 1080p stream if given the option of that or a free 360p
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
And we pay what, 10 dollars a month for cable and internet? And we get what, hundreds of channels and more TV shows than you can feasibly watch in a year? I'm sorry but there is a large difference between what cable TV offers and what SC2 streams are offering. When is the last time the NBA had 4 hours of downtime because of technical difficulties? When is the last time an NBA team chose to forgo their match because they were too tired or didn't think the money was worth it? Honestly, theres a vast difference in professionalism and marketability between organizations like the NBA and IPL (for instance). I think this thread more represents people in the E-Sports industry getting frustrated because they aren't making big bucks yet. I'm sorry but you aren't curing cancer, you aren't saving lives, you aren't very important on the larger scale. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. If you want to live a cushy life full of commodities, go to college, get a degree and get a meaningful job. E-sports is a hobby to most of us, not a necessity. I can play SC2 and be content, it's nice to be able to watch streams and tournaments, but my life will continue happily if all I can do is play and not watch. '
This sounds harsh, but in reality, SC2 and E-sports rank pretty low on my list of priorities.
Professionalism is a key part of it, but I think the issue at hand isn't that these companies demand that they start making millions and millions of dollars (Even though this is their goal), this is about companies finally saying, "look, we cant give you what you guys want if you guys cant give us what we need to do so." Everyone with any sort of business sense can see that this esports production industry grown too quickly too fast, and cannot deliever whats demanded, and this isnt exclusive to esports.
Bubbles burst, the smart adapt and the strong survive, the dead weight will be shed and in the end it either works or its gone, this is survival of the fittest and this is how the world works. All we can do is continue to watch, express interest, attend events, and contribute what money we feel obligated to. If you don't feel obligated to, don't be surprised when there's nothing left for you to enjoy.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
I'm not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I don't give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Really dude? Why are you even on this website then? I bought a basketball when I was 10, should that entitle me to see every basketball game for free? No one cares if you don't want to spend any money on esports, but don't expect good content when you're obviously not going to shell out any cash.
It's posts like this, that speak to a larger problem of our community. Too many of us have an entitlement problem when it comes to our hobbies. I don't know if it's the nature of espots, or the culture of bit torrent or whatever, but I don't know of any serious sports fans who get upset at buying jerseys or tickets for events. It's sad that many of us try so hard to work in this fledgling industry, while so many refuse to support it.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
On February 10 2012 03:43 Griddlez wrote: A third party company should come along and fill a roll much like a cable company does now. They could piece together the IPL, GSL, MLG, NASL, IEM, etc content and charge the viewers a single monthly charge for everything. The people collecting the money can pay back to the leagues based on viewership numbers during their programs.
the amount of ppl that would have to subscribe to keep all those companies happy would be in the millions for them to even turn out a profit. Plus the production would have to be stepped up soo much. Not just 2 ppl sitting in front of a black screen, or a green screened room. They would have to have studios that don't look like someone just put some shit in a garage.
The company would only handle distribting content provided by the leagues. They would not create content. They would manage the adds, airing time, and finances of paying out based on viewership numbers. 1 Charge you will get all relevent content and shows and the companys/shows with the best content will make the most money as it should be.
Not going to pay to watch HD quality. If I really had to pay to watch entertainment like this, I'd rather stick with supporting my favorite streamers or go watch the TV I'm forced to pay a license for anyways.
For me personally, and this goes for all sports as a matter of fact . The primary sponsor of any sporting event are big companies that want to advertise their products to a viewer base that is guaranteed, as in they have the evidence that x advertisement reached 1000000 households for example.
Big sponsors aren't looking to make their money directly back from the event, that's just stupid, it becomes like free advertising if they can make their money back and get there name out there? thats like a no brainer. We all know this is not the case since advertising is based on risk vs reward.
Big sponsors want to advertise to get their name out there for the masses. All that a sponsor should really care about is how large are the viewing numbers regardless if the viewers pay for the stream or not.(If they pay thats just icing on the cake) Look at american football, who the hell pays for that? do you fork out money to watch the superbowl? noooooo.. All you pay is for your cable subscription.
All this shit about hoping ppl pay for streams is just temporary false revenue that is in no way sustainable in a long term future as the primary way to get money. All a sport or an esport for this matter should care about is reaching the largest fan base it can possibly reach, and only when the fanbase is huge will a big name sponsor jump in and say, "hey we dont give a fuck amount making money from your event, but we heard you have 2 million viewers on average that target a demographic we want, so we are interested!"
Then when the big big sponsors jump in, Then we get the production quality that is off the hook, When the production quality is great ( good casters, lots of cool videos between down time,Well structured events , etc) is when the scene really builds a big following, When the following is large, then they buy all the crap like merchandise and sell out arenas right away.
Esports will never make it big until it hits T.V , it has nothing to do with ppl that don't pay for streams, it has nothing to do with all your shitty excuses, All a sport should care about is building up the largest viewerbase it possibly can and thats what attracts big sponsorships. In korea for instance, during broodwar's prime, not a fucking soul paid to watch starcraft, u can go and watch it for free.. its so standard the Koreans don't even pay to watch sc2 vods of gsl or spectate live events, everything is free, So why was broodwar successful in korea >?because it reached a viewer base that brought in the Big name sponsors.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
And we pay what, 10 dollars a month for cable and internet? And we get what, hundreds of channels and more TV shows than you can feasibly watch in a year? I'm sorry but there is a large difference between what cable TV offers and what SC2 streams are offering. When is the last time the NBA had 4 hours of downtime because of technical difficulties? When is the last time an NBA team chose to forgo their match because they were too tired or didn't think the money was worth it? Honestly, theres a vast difference in professionalism and marketability between organizations like the NBA and IPL (for instance). I think this thread more represents people in the E-Sports industry getting frustrated because they aren't making big bucks yet. I'm sorry but you aren't curing cancer, you aren't saving lives, you aren't very important on the larger scale. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. If you want to live a cushy life full of commodities, go to college, get a degree and get a meaningful job. E-sports is a hobby to most of us, not a necessity. I can play SC2 and be content, it's nice to be able to watch streams and tournaments, but my life will continue happily if all I can do is play and not watch. '
This sounds harsh, but in reality, SC2 and E-sports rank pretty low on my list of priorities.
Oh my.
Bold #1: Wow I wish I had your cable provider. I pay $100 or so for cable / internet with a handful of premium channels. Also I have happily dropped $200 for NFL or MLB packages in the past, because as a consumer I enjoyed having the option to buy that extra content. Capitalism is awesome.
Bold #2: lol like 2 months ago. It was the NBA lockout. I'm getting a headache.
Bold #3: That is totally fine. Just like I can happily not ever subscribe to Cosmopolitan, but I am not on the Cosmopolitan message board bitching about how they should send it to all their subscribers for free. Me... I like watching professional Starcraft 2 from time to time. I want to continue to have that option, and for that to happen, the organizations need to make money. Not complicated.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
And we pay what, 10 dollars a month for cable and internet? And we get what, hundreds of channels and more TV shows than you can feasibly watch in a year? I'm sorry but there is a large difference between what cable TV offers and what SC2 streams are offering. When is the last time the NBA had 4 hours of downtime because of technical difficulties? When is the last time an NBA team chose to forgo their match because they were too tired or didn't think the money was worth it? Honestly, theres a vast difference in professionalism and marketability between organizations like the NBA and IPL (for instance). I think this thread more represents people in the E-Sports industry getting frustrated because they aren't making big bucks yet. I'm sorry but you aren't curing cancer, you aren't saving lives, you aren't very important on the larger scale. If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money. If you want to live a cushy life full of commodities, go to college, get a degree and get a meaningful job. E-sports is a hobby to most of us, not a necessity. I can play SC2 and be content, it's nice to be able to watch streams and tournaments, but my life will continue happily if all I can do is play and not watch. '
This sounds harsh, but in reality, SC2 and E-sports rank pretty low on my list of priorities.
FYI: US Cable, in my area, Verizon charges the following:
65$/month for basic cable package 75$/month for premium 90$/month for ultimate
Other premium channels may be purchased a-la cart (e.g. HBO, NHL, etc.), and are anywhere between $12-20 a month.
Internet adds another $30+ to your bill, depending on deal package, etc. etc.
So yes, you get a lot more content from TV, but it is FAR from cheap. Consider the fact that all of these channels (except perhaps the a-la cart premium ones) also have economics of scale, meaning
1) huge market penetration and 2) huge amounts of viewership which can translate to ad revenue
allowing them to charge less for each individual subscription. TV is expensive, but offers excellent, almost exceptional value for the dollar. Perhaps US TV is sold at a discount internationally, since they consider it a peripheral market, and rely on US viewership to pay for the production, etc.
I agree that SC2 may not be very high on eveyone's priority list, and that is why the scene will remain small, and niche at the end of the day. It will only grow insofar as people are willing to put money into it. There is clearly not enough money to go around.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
On February 10 2012 03:59 jinixxx123 wrote: Big sponsors are advertising to get their name out there. All that a sponsor should really care about is how large are the viewing numbers regardless if the viewers pay for the stream or not. Look at american football, who the hell pays for that? do you fork out money to watch the superbowl? noooooo.. All you pay is for your cable subscription.
You pay for your cable subscription, the cable company pays the station for the rights to air their channel on their cable, the production company pays the NFL lisencing fees for distribution rights, so that they can air the game, so that you pay for cable to watch the superbowl.
Stating you don't pay for the superbowl is a naive comment.
This is how cable companies make thier money, the channels make their money by paying for licensing rights and then running advertisements during these programs that they run, and the NFL makes their money through selling these licenses to the production companies (as well as ticket sales).
How much do you expect people to pay though? Monthly GSL Premium is $240 per year without the team league.
This is false. The ticket store is very clear that the Premium Monthly subscription includes absolutely everything. Do you even check these things before making such a claim?
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
They said that when Poker first started becoming a spectator sport, now its a multi-billion dollar industry.
While this is an interesting topic, let's stop comparing SC2 and MMA (the UFC). As someone who has followed esports and mma for over a decade the two are at very, very different stages of growth.
Let's be straight, the production alone at MOST 'pro' esports events lends itself to being free, the quality of the content we are shown isn't worth anywhere close the $45-55 (The UFC charges normal vs HD) or even the $25 being thrown around in this thread. Most professional tournaments still feel like amateur hour.
The eSports demographic is poor, cheap and for the vast majority, internet savvy. We're deluded with entitlement and a 'fuck you, I'll pirate it' attitude if we don't like the model or the cost being described. This is hard to get around for eSports companies as chill said, you charge too much, they leave, you don't charge enough, you fade out and die.
I think the only approach can be to capitalize as much as you can RIGHT NOW, because honestly gamers have ADD. I know we all want to think -THIS TIME ITS DIFFERENT- and that eSports has finally arrived and will be this big huge market and be recognized as a sustainable career industry (think korean BW) but I'm not convinced it is yet.
Starcraft 2 is hot right now, very hot but until a larger enough section of the humoungous gamer base recognizes it as 'the title that is an esport,' this is the game to play if you want to compete, I'm not sure eSports has truly arrived. Gamers get bored. This year and perhaps even more years to come with the expansions we will likely hold Starcraft 2 on a pedestal but can western gamers (in numbers enough to be significant) carry a title for 10 years so that a huge esports business industry can really get established and flourish? I'm not sure. I think we would get bored of the game, a new game would come along, people lose interest etc. etc.
Koreans were able to look past dated graphics, UI and mechanics and recognize the skill, the decision making and strategy that made broodwar a legitimate 'esports' title. A game where players who were good enough were respected enough by a large enough segment of the population to sustain a business. Once 'gamers' were respected to this degree other games could be added into this business model. I don't think western gamers (on the whole) can do this, better graphics, better engines, cooler games come out and that steals attention. We want the newest and the best. I know there will always be a niche market for old GREAT games, hell 5 years from now you can probably still find 1.6 servers but it's not enough to create a healthy market.
I'm rambling a lot right now holy shit I apologize and how disjointed and fucked this post actually is turing out.
The quick tl;dr, esports isn't likely to be held in the west with 1 title, it will take an entire paradigm shift of the entire gaming community (the bazillion dollar industry) to recognize and respect 'pro gamers' to the point that enough people value the skill and competition exhibited. In the west, pro gaming is respected in niche but on the whole is a laughable profession.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
They said that when Poker first started becoming a spectator sport, now its a multi-billion dollar industry.
What's your point? Poker isn't even remotely comparable to SC2...
On February 10 2012 03:59 jinixxx123 wrote: Big sponsors are advertising to get their name out there. All that a sponsor should really care about is how large are the viewing numbers regardless if the viewers pay for the stream or not. Look at american football, who the hell pays for that? do you fork out money to watch the superbowl? noooooo.. All you pay is for your cable subscription.
You pay for your cable subscription, the cable company pays the station for the rights to air their channel on their cable, the production company pays the NFL lisencing fees for distribution rights, so that they can air the game, so that you pay for cable to watch the superbowl.
Stating you don't pay for the superbowl is a naive comment.
This is how cable companies make thier money, the channels make their money by paying for licensing rights and then running advertisements during these programs that they run, and the NFL makes their money through selling these licenses to the production companies (as well as ticket sales).
thats so wrong, the big commercials you see running during the superbowl are the ones forking out i'd bet over 90% of the real cost it takes to put such an event on T.V . All you are paying is for your cable subscription, of which encompass'es EVERYTHING. Not just just watching sports but movies/cartoons etc.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
They said that when Poker first started becoming a spectator sport, now its a multi-billion dollar industry.
Actually poker has been popular for ages, just not as hyped as it became 5-10 years ago. There's been world series of poker tournament held every year since the 70's. SC2 is a unstable game that wont survive without spectators while poker lived for 30 years with huge prize pools without it being watched on the TV.
Also comparing the two is futile as one is a complex niche video game and the other is a world famous card game.
This guy is a complete embarassment. The best thing that will ever happen on any show/whatever that Jerith is associated with was Spooky setting him straight.
Here is my idea which I feel is quite radical, so keep the pitch forks at bay please, just trying to offer an alternative viewpoint.
First of all, I feel in order for any industry to be sustainable, it will have to function as a true free market system which works by letting supply / demand naturally balance itself out, and where players/casters/sponsors are driven naturally by incentives. Like all industries, there needs to be competition/rewards, this improves the overall quality of viewer/player and the industry itself. At the moment all the major events are regulated with very specific criteria that limits the competition / market, with rules in place such as complicated qualification rounds, geographical distances and obligations to their sponsors. The alternative I'm suggesting is the sponsorship dollars get spread across through natural supply / demand instead in the form of a large international site with a free market system.
IMO this could work with a massive website where people can sign up and play and win money in tournaments. This would provide a living for both the players and the casters, and provide an even better option for viewers which in turn attract sponsors - basically aiming to become a sustainable industry in itself. ATM playhem is closest to this model.
So on this site there are MANY various tournaments held DAILY with various prizes and as the entrance fees go up so do the prizes. The tournament entrance fees range from $0.01 for the lower levels to $50 entrance fees for the big leagues where you see $1,500 first prizes for say, 32 player tournaments. All the money goes to the players after minusing transaction costs.
Smurfing: Naturally lower league players won't want to waste time earning less when they can be earning more at their skill level at a higher league. So although they can play in the $0.01 cent games it doesn't make sense.. they end up winning $0.5 or something when they could be winning $5 with the skill level they have. So the tournaments will end up evening itself out naturally..
Casters: Everyone can stream, just like the playhem tournaments. People will naturally decide themselves who are the best and then watch them. Website is able to track viewers and over time these casters earn better priority and can stream the big events. Casters who are good are supported and get money from donations / adverts. This way it weeds out the bad casters and overall viewing quality is improved.
Players: The many daily tournaments provide a proper daily income for players and encourages skilled players who wanna go pro to try harder. You win what you earn. The best players will earn alot, and invest more in playing. The good but not great players still have a chance by practicing hard in their respective league levels and can get encouraged to play more after winning the smaller prizes. Best of all those players who aren't good enough won't have to risk going pro or moving to another country, they will just stop playing because they can't make enough to support themselves.
Sponsors: They pay for the entrance fees of their players. They get certain exposure on the website deliberately such as in the match preview / brackets it has their team logo / and sponsors are shown on the team pages in the website. This has to be set up very carefully so sponsors have the incentive to support their players and get more exposure. Perhaps all streamers will be require to download an overlay that is scripted from the brackets that display the sponsors of both teams, player profile details and stats etc. Money is not wasted on fat salaries for non-performing players and naturally the players who win the most end up getting sponsored, giving the sponsors a return they can "measure".
Site: Doesn't take rake or make a commission. Pretty sure has to be this way or Blizzard will shut it down or want to be involved. They earn revenue from advertisements from gaming companies like Roccat, Razer, Steelseries etc and google ads. They will do okay because if it takes off ALOT of people will be visiting the site. And perhaps they have the money to pay the admins who run the site / tournaments so its self-sustaining.
Admins: Everything is automated as much as possible on the site. One admin per tournament for disputes. Players awarded karma points after disputes to discourage BM / cheating and to make the lives of admins easier.
Live Events: Not sure how this will be done. I honestly think live events are a huge waste of money for everyone involved, from the sponsors who pay the air tickets to the tournament organizers who have to hire a venue. Alot of sponsorship money is being lost there on expensive air tickets / venues which could be better used elsewhere. TSL3 for example was carried out online (except the finals) and it was fantastic and there isn't LAN anymore so game quality doesn't improve live, in fact it inconveniences players who must adjust to jetlag and a new playing envrionment. Sponsors are given adequate coverage online already, for every event there are so many more viewers online watching then those in attendance at the live event.
IMO if a site like this exists the eSports industry will be able to grow faster and further, it will be self-sustaining and able to support the livelihood for many players and casters. For recreational players there will be games to watch everyday, or tournaments that cost almost nothing $0.01-$0.25 to play in. Our player database is there already in terms of size, we need to get all of them playing on one site and yea playhem is closest to this I don't think they have any plans to start charging though I could be wrong.
Anyway those are my thoughts for a sustainable model, and it has to use a free market system.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it.
My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be.
There are some really good thoughts in here, but I wanted to sum up my beliefs on this topic.
1. SC2 is still young - we don't know where things will lead if the current model was maintained.
2. You can't do this expensive PPV model for SC2, it just won't work....I pay for GSL but it's $15 for literally 100+ matches featuring the highest level players in the world. Even if it was $5 to watch an MLG weekend, is that $5 really gonna make them money? Lets say (big number here) 400,000 people paid to watch an MLG weekend. So figure $2 million before taxes, expenses, the cost of actually getting those millions of dollars via paypal or w.e service they would use, the additional cost of improving the quality of production just to justify a charge-only system, and other minor things that endlessly chip away at the profitability of MLG (and every other entertainment production company). Even if you factor in the money they make from sponsorships and merchandise, I'm just not sure we could ever get to the point where your going to have the pure numbers to make it profitable when your alienating a significant portion of your audience by charging in the first place.
3. How many tournaments could really do a premium model? GSL gets a lucky break because the time difference is so bad for America and they just happen to have the best players in the world constantly competing in their studio. MLG and IPL could pull this off, but what about the NASLs, Dreamhacks, IEMs, etc. etc. etc.
4. Somebody on the first page already said it, but there really is a massive amount of SC2 content out there as it is, any kind of premium model would have to give you unquestionably better value than these lesser tournaments. Is that even possible with SC2? The whole thing just sounds like it's counteproductive. If MLG can make more money doing a premium model, they will. If they can make more money going for larger audiences, they'll do that. There's no real model for e-sports (professional sports provides a vague path, but the actual inputs of SC2 pros vs professional athletes is just not comparable) so these tournaments/leagues/teams are going to have to find their own way.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it.
My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be.
Why would you even post in this thread then? It's like going into a car thread and demanding people ride bicycles and give the extra money to people in need.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it.
My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be.
We get it, you are completely fine with, and are on the verge of encouraging, the death of western pro SC2. However this thread is concerned with ways to help it survive. Since you don't care about that discussion, it's a bit confusing why you would repeatedly post in this thread.
On February 10 2012 03:59 jinixxx123 wrote: Big sponsors are advertising to get their name out there. All that a sponsor should really care about is how large are the viewing numbers regardless if the viewers pay for the stream or not. Look at american football, who the hell pays for that? do you fork out money to watch the superbowl? noooooo.. All you pay is for your cable subscription.
You pay for your cable subscription, the cable company pays the station for the rights to air their channel on their cable, the production company pays the NFL lisencing fees for distribution rights, so that they can air the game, so that you pay for cable to watch the superbowl.
Stating you don't pay for the superbowl is a naive comment.
This is how cable companies make thier money, the channels make their money by paying for licensing rights and then running advertisements during these programs that they run, and the NFL makes their money through selling these licenses to the production companies (as well as ticket sales).
Actually the Superbowl is on free through an antenna in HD all the time(you do not need cable/satellite). Rotating with CBS/FOX/NBC/ABC yearly. You don't have to spend one cent for the Superbowl in the US. Also if you live locally to your team you get all their games again for FREE on antenna. If you live in California and your team is New York then yes you need DirecTV and the NFL Sunday Ticket to catch all the games.
On February 10 2012 04:20 UndoneJin wrote:3. How many tournaments could really do a premium model? GSL gets a lucky break because the time difference is so bad for America and they just happen to have the best players in the world constantly competing in their studio. MLG and IPL could pull this off, but what about the NASLs, Dreamhacks, IEMs, etc. etc. etc. .
GSL is the ultimate league. MLG, IPL, NASL, IEM seems like the minor leagues to me.
I go to minor league and college baseball, hockey, american football, and basketball games often for the price of free to $5. That shit is live and in person though. I have a hard time paying for what is essentially minor league SC when I can only watch it over the internet.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it.
My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be.
Why would you even post in this thread then? It's like going into a car thread and demanding people ride bicycles and give the extra money to people in need.
I think his point is that there would be no "community" if it were PPV, or a lot smaller, since one of the major reasons most people are interested in competitive gaming is because is free. Maybe i'm wrong though.
I agree of course that tournaments should be profitable, but i think some people overestimate the "commitment" the general community has.
On February 10 2012 04:14 aLt)nirvana wrote: Here is my idea which I feel is quite radical, so keep the pitch forks at bay please, just trying to offer an alternative viewpoint.
First of all, I feel in order for any industry to be sustainable, it will have to function as a true free market system which works by letting supply / demand naturally balance itself out, and where players/casters/sponsors are driven naturally by incentives. Like all industries, there needs to be competition/rewards, this improves the overall quality of viewer/player and the industry itself. At the moment all the major events are regulated with very specific criteria that limits the competition / market, with rules in place such as complicated qualification rounds, geographical distances and obligations to their sponsors. The alternative I'm suggesting is the sponsorship dollars get spread across through natural supply / demand instead in the form of a large international site with a free market system.
IMO this could work with a massive website where people can sign up and play and win money in tournaments. This would provide a living for both the players and the casters, and provide an even better option for viewers which in turn attract sponsors - basically aiming to become a sustainable industry in itself. ATM playhem is closest to this model.
So on this site there are MANY various tournaments held DAILY with various prizes and as the entrance fees go up so do the prizes. The tournament entrance fees range from $0.01 for the lower levels to $50 entrance fees for the big leagues where you see $1,500 first prizes for say, 32 player tournaments. All the money goes to the players after minusing transaction costs.
Smurfing: Naturally lower league players won't want to waste time earning less when they can be earning more at their skill level at a higher league. So although they can play in the $0.01 cent games it doesn't make sense.. they end up winning $0.5 or something when they could be winning $5 with the skill level they have. So the tournaments will end up evening itself out naturally..
Casters: Everyone can stream, just like the playhem tournaments. People will naturally decide themselves who are the best and then watch them. Website is able to track viewers and over time these casters earn better priority and can stream the big events. Casters who are good are supported and get money from donations / adverts. This way it weeds out the bad casters and overall viewing quality is improved.
Players: The many daily tournaments provide a proper daily income for players and encourages skilled players who wanna go pro to try harder. You win what you earn. The best players will earn alot, and invest more in playing. The good but not great players still have a chance by practicing hard in their respective league levels and can get encouraged to play more after winning the smaller prizes. Best of all those players who aren't good enough won't have to risk going pro or moving to another country, they will just stop playing because they can't make enough to support themselves.
Sponsors: They pay for the entrance fees of their players. They get certain exposure on the website deliberately such as in the match preview / brackets it has their team logo / and sponsors are shown on the team pages in the website. This has to be set up very carefully so sponsors have the incentive to support their players and get more exposure. Perhaps all streamers will be require to download an overlay that is scripted from the brackets that display the sponsors of both teams, player profile details and stats etc. Money is not wasted on fat salaries for non-performing players and naturally the players who win the most end up getting sponsored, giving the sponsors a return they can "measure".
Site: Doesn't take rake or make a commission. Pretty sure has to be this way or Blizzard will shut it down or want to be involved. They earn revenue from advertisements from gaming companies like Roccat, Razer, Steelseries etc and google ads. They will do okay because if it takes off ALOT of people will be visiting the site. And perhaps they have the money to pay the admins who run the site / tournaments so its self-sustaining.
Admins: Everything is automated as much as possible on the site. One admin per tournament for disputes. Players awarded karma points after disputes to discourage BM / cheating and to make the lives of admins easier.
Live Events: Not sure how this will be done. I honestly think live events are a huge waste of money for everyone involved, from the sponsors who pay the air tickets to the tournament organizers who have to hire a venue. Alot of sponsorship money is being lost there on expensive air tickets / venues which could be better used elsewhere. TSL3 for example was carried out online (except the finals) and it was fantastic and there isn't LAN anymore so game quality doesn't improve live, in fact it inconveniences players who must adjust to jetlag and a new playing envrionment. Sponsors are given adequate coverage online already, for every event there are so many more viewers online watching then those in attendance at the live event.
IMO if a site like this exists the eSports industry will be able to grow faster and further, it will be self-sustaining and able to support the livelihood for many players and casters. For recreational players there will be games to watch everyday, or tournaments that cost almost nothing $0.01-$0.25 to play in. Our player database is there already in terms of size, we need to get all of them playing on one site and yea playhem is closest to this I don't think they have any plans to start charging though I could be wrong.
Anyway those are my thoughts for a sustainable model, and it has to use a free market system.
On February 09 2012 15:03 ThaZenith wrote: SC2 is doing fine right now. Almost everything is free, with maybe higher quality streams for a few bucks, supported mostly through ads. No one could start trying to force people to pay either, because there's so many other options people could turn to.
SC2 isn't doing fine right now in the sense that there isn't much sustainability. What you've just described is a situation where competitors are gonna undercut each other so much that everyone fails. If there's always someone out there willing to carry out a "loss leader" strategy that is going to attract all the fans, then no "loss leader" strategy ever succeeds.
Things are free to consumers because the producers are using investment money and/or because the producers are using a lot of free labor that oughtn't be free forever. If there isn't a shift to more monetizing, then a lot of things are just gonna fizzle out.
Almost nothing in esports starts with a sustainable model. Almost everything hopes to become sustainable after attracting a lot of positive attention from the community. Becoming sustainable means attracting more sponsors and more potent sponsors and charging money for content. There's only so much ad space. And it seems the demographic that esports attracts isn't one that has a bunch of spending money to use willy nilly on every sponsor that comes along. So get what you can out of sponsors, but mainly just have people pay directly for what they want: esports content.
I'll be damned if most esports fans don't have $30/month to spend for the many hours of entertainment they get from esports. They just feel entitled (not entirely their fault) and they feel some irrational hatred for anyone who is trying to turn a profit, pay their employees and guarantee that the content that everyone loves continues to be produced.
Esports fans aren't dying out there. They aren't grievously wounded. They aren't cut and they don't even have the tiniest scratch. Esports fans aren't bleeding. The only loss of blood that occurs is when the noble ones donate it to the content producers who are on their deathbeds and would otherwise die.
On February 09 2012 15:36 Blackfoger wrote: Jerry honestly has no idea what it means to be a successful organization to start, yes I am going there.... His team vVv has not produced results nor are they salaried. When you have very successful business models such as EG that work hard to advertise.
As far as PPV can also take any other sports like football baseball basketball they do successful due to advertising. There are many other avenue's of monetization. SC2 community is small already don't need to alienate more people because the current market of viewers are mostly lower income college males.
Even if this was true; and I don't think it is..you are the LAST person to be making comments like this. Do something even remotely worth-while and then comment on others.
The facts are just like I said on the podcast. I am completely for MLG taking the chance to monetize it's success. However, a few things will change once they do that. Their content needs to be top-notch, if that's what people are paying for..and don't expect to get passed off like you have in the past because you say, "Well, it's not like you pay for it." Because now; people would be paying for it. As long as you are confident in the content you are making..go for it. But put a lot of thought into it first.
1. Point: In my Opinion Esport is a sport *sigh* :D 2.Point I'm passionate about sports.
Conclussion: I love doing sports be it e or regular. I love watching sports.
Based on this I'm 100% ok with paying for a service, thats gives me a certain Return on Investment, i.e. GSL premium. The problem I see with making money in Esport is that the broad majority of consumer does not have enough to spend freely. For example GSL: the yearly pass is what? 100 dollar? For a working single thats not a lot, for a young schoolboy or a student thats a shitload. And to make money you have to invest money. Who would pay for another IPL/NASL/IEM ? It's all been there, we have all seen that. But who wouldnt pay for an truely international GSTL? Bring in the big teams, make them establish Teamhouses in Korea, present the teams as a whole, and let them battle it out in several formats, invent something new etc etc.Let everyone see the training matches. Maybe run the first season for free AND THEN you can charge a fee.
Thats basically what the GSL does best, and as far as I know they are doing ok, ofcourse they are not making trillions but that seem to be market leader in a niche market, thats fine for a start i guess.
On February 10 2012 03:44 Kfcnoob wrote: eSports is 'cool' and people are giant fans from it being so; charging for a necessary subscription service will drastically lower this.
the community exists because of the cool - just use ads.
'just use ads'. I hear this phrase so often. Well they use ads and then what? Tons of money is magically going to appear? Ads in Esports aren't even remotely comparable to TV ads. The amount of people watching is incredibly small (compared to TV numbers) and the main demographic does not spend very much. You can't run a big league/tournament simply off ads. MLG/ESL/GSL all have subscriptions. Events that do not (IPL, Dreamhack) run at a loss and get financed by other parts of the company.
On February 10 2012 04:39 Liquid`NonY wrote:I'll be damned if most esports fans don't have $30/month to spend for the many hours of entertainment they get from esports. They just feel entitled (not entirely their fault) and they feel some irrational hatred for anyone who is trying to turn a profit, pay their employees and guarantee that the content that everyone loves continues to be produced.
I don't have $30/month to spend on Starcraft! I bought that GSL lite ticket, but that's all I can justify spending. All my other spending is for Netflix streaming and for things like cheap sporting events, bars, and dating. My 'entertainment' budget is super tight as a college student and I can't blow everything on Starcraft. I could cut out the GSL ticket, but why? It's like skipping the major leagues and paying for the minors.
On February 09 2012 15:03 ThaZenith wrote: SC2 is doing fine right now. Almost everything is free, with maybe higher quality streams for a few bucks, supported mostly through ads. No one could start trying to force people to pay either, because there's so many other options people could turn to.
SC2 isn't doing fine right now in the sense that there isn't much sustainability. What you've just described is a situation where competitors are gonna undercut each other so much that everyone fails. If there's always someone out there willing to carry out a "loss leader" strategy that is going to attract all the fans, then no "loss leader" strategy ever succeeds.
Things are free to consumers because the producers are using investment money and/or because the producers are using a lot of free labor that oughtn't be free forever. If there isn't a shift to more monetizing, then a lot of things are just gonna fizzle out.
Almost nothing in esports starts with a sustainable model. Almost everything hopes to become sustainable after attracting a lot of positive attention from the community. Becoming sustainable means attracting more sponsors and more potent sponsors and charging money for content. There's only so much ad space. And it seems the demographic that esports attracts isn't one that has a bunch of spending money to use willy nilly on every sponsor that comes along. So get what you can out of sponsors, but mainly just have people pay directly for what they want: esports content.
I'll be damned if most esports fans don't have $30/month to spend for the many hours of entertainment they get from esports. They just feel entitled (not entirely their fault) and they feel some irrational hatred for anyone who is trying to turn a profit, pay their employees and guarantee that the content that everyone loves continues to be produced.
Esports fans aren't dying out there. They aren't grievously wounded. They aren't cut and they don't even have the tiniest scratch. Esports fans aren't bleeding. The only loss of blood that occurs is when the noble ones donate it to the content producers who are on their deathbeds and will die unless they get that blood.
I think the main problem here is not that epsorts fans don't have $30/month, it's just that there are substitute products (e.g. TV, other internet activates, etc.) that draw their attention, and that ultimately SC2 isn't that much better than the easily available, cheaper, and high value-per-dollar substitutes to plop money down on at the end of the day. You really have to love competitive SC2 to be spending money on it, and it will remain a niche market because only a handful of people are really willing to do that. Those few people will sustain a small industry.
The best thing that can happen for this industry right now is for the SC2 bubble to burst. Once the scene has consolidated, things should be more stable, although I do expect it to slowly die over the years and eventually fade away. The run may last 5-15 years, depending on how re-invigorating the expansion packs are, but I don't think there's a true end-game model here.
Maybe if games are accepted as a bigger part of mainstream culture (as a type of spectator entertainment) in the 1st world countries that have disposable income, it may change. 1st world countries are just coming to terms with games as mainstream, and games as a potential art form. The step needed to make any game a true 'spectator sport' won't happen for another good 30-50 years, if it ever happens at all.
If you want an end-game, or at least a lasting/sustainable model, I think you have to look at e-sports as a whole, rather than SC2. When I say it as a whole, I don't mean as a whole community, like most people do, but from a more pragmatic view. New games come out to replace old games, viewers, sponsors, money and professionals have to jump from game to game to keep on going, generating interest and attracting new money. E-sports as a whole will live on, in new games, likely in the same demographic, but SC2 will follow the fate of many 'esports' games before it and die a slow death until someone pulls the plug. It is the nature of being one of the games in the 'esports' environment, and will likely continue to be so in the foreseeable future. This larger 'esports' model may be able to ride the culture wave I mentioned in the last paragraph, and may find a foothold with enough money to be sustainable outside of pure sponsorships... eventually.
If you look at western E-sports, in reality E-sports isn't one community, it's a competition, and newer games will continue to displace older ones, and the scene will continue to move on. I think perhaps that is the business reality you have to understand, that money will flow from one game to another, and you have to capitalize on the 'hottest stuff' at the moment to draw viewers, sponsorship dollars, and paid-for content. MLG seems to be doing ok at this, as they've gone from game to game to game, and try to catch the next big game as it comes up. In the longer term, the SC2 community is just one cog in the e-sports wheel, and eventually it too will be supplanted. The likely candidates right now are the MOBA (or ARTS) games.
I see it as sad but inevitable.
In summary: -The SC2 scene in the short term is probably sustainable, if the bubble is popped before it deals too much damage. -In the long term, SC2 itself is probably not sustainable under any model -E-sports at as whole is likely sustainable, but it runs under a model where 'esports' moves from game to game to game as technology progresses and new games are developed. We see this in action somewhat today, and if there is any future in an ongoing 'for life' job, it would likely be here.
On February 10 2012 04:39 Liquid`NonY wrote:I'll be damned if most esports fans don't have $30/month to spend for the many hours of entertainment they get from esports.
I don't. I bought that GSL lite ticket, but that's all I can justify spending. All my other spending is for Netflix streaming and for things like cheap sporting events, bars, and dating. My 'entertainment' budget is super tight as a college student and I can't blow everything on Starcraft.
Bars and dating are expensive. Even drinking the cheapest beer at the divey-est of dive bars, you're still gonna blow $30 in a night or two and that's if you're only paying for yourself.
On February 10 2012 04:39 Liquid`NonY wrote:I'll be damned if most esports fans don't have $30/month to spend for the many hours of entertainment they get from esports. They just feel entitled (not entirely their fault) and they feel some irrational hatred for anyone who is trying to turn a profit, pay their employees and guarantee that the content that everyone loves continues to be produced.
I don't. I bought that GSL lite ticket, but that's all I can justify spending. All my other spending is for Netflix streaming and for things like cheap sporting events, bars, and dating. My 'entertainment' budget is super tight as a college student and I can't blow everything on Starcraft. I could cut out the GSL ticket, but why? It's like skipping the major leagues and paying for the minors.
No one is telling you how to spend your money. What people like Tyler are sick of reading, is all of the pretenders who claim they support e-sports, but will never spend a dime on it, and then have the audacity to ask for free streams, more/better content, better casters etc. It's the sense of entitlement that's disturbing, and disheartening. The fact is, the money you spend at the bar, could be spent on SC2. Weather or not you do that is your prerogative
Forcing people to PAY for content as far as tournament coverage goes (whether it is audio/video, articles, behind the scenes, whatever) would rapidly decline the amount of viewers, that much I am sure of. But, in my opinion, it would actually lessen the interest in esports in general.
If I was ever forced to pay to watch MLG, I would just simply stop watching it. Sure, I enjoy and like it, but I wouldnt pay for it. It's the same with UFC, I dont pay to watch it. If I want to see a UFC event on TV, I will go to a bar/friends house to watch it and my money would go into buying food instead.
You have to ask yourself this: If you are watching MLG, but not paying for it, are you HURTING MLG? Absolutely not. Having viewers is better than NOT having viewers right?
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it.
My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be.
We get it, you are completely fine with, and are on the verge of encouraging, the death of western pro SC2. However this thread is concerned with ways to help it survive. Since you don't care about that discussion, it's a bit confusing why you would repeatedly post in this thread.
Ok, maybe I was being way too critical and not constructive at all. You mistake me, I am not in any way "enouraging the death of western pro SC2", but I can see how my cynicism can be misconstrued that way. I just completely disagree with the method of PPV for SC2. The point I was trying to make was that for many people SC2 is a hobby and having to pay to watch these tournaments, with so many going on, is going to decrease viewership immensely. This is just my speculation and could be completely off, maybe 90% of people who watch streams now would continue to pay with a PPV system, but I guess surveys would need to be done to determine that. I think maybe more local events with admission fee would be a better system and maybe find a less direct method of making money from streams. I know a number of my friends and CSL teammates would love to go to MLG like events and pay to go but they rarely come around. I also realize that these live events are really expensive, but what about smaller events at like colleges? I know if MLG threw an event at my school tons of people would come out to check it out. I'd just be willing to bet that a lot of the current viewers only watch because they can for free.
How many people would have paid for SC2 if you could play on Battle.Net with a pirated copy? That's the problem, the culture of gaming isn't used to spending money for things that they can get for free. If I go to demonid right now, and cross check the IP's of the people who have torrented the GSL, and the people who post on TL calming to support e-sports, what's that going to look like?
On February 10 2012 05:06 Klipsys wrote: How many people would have paid for SC2 if you could play on Battle.Net with a pirated copy? That's the problem, the culture of gaming isn't used to spending money for things that they can get for free. If I go to demonid right now, and cross check the IP's of the people who have torrented the GSL, and the people who post on TL calming to support e-sports, what's that going to look like?
if you can't even play on bnet 1.0 with a pirated copy and can only play on priv servers your argument is invalid. If there was an alternative server your argument would be valid.
On February 10 2012 04:14 aLt)nirvana wrote: Here is my idea which I feel is quite radical, so keep the pitch forks at bay please, just trying to offer an alternative viewpoint.
First of all, I feel in order for any industry to be sustainable, it will have to function as a true free market system which works by letting supply / demand naturally balance itself out, and where players/casters/sponsors are driven naturally by incentives. Like all industries, there needs to be competition/rewards, this improves the overall quality of viewer/player and the industry itself. At the moment all the major events are regulated with very specific criteria that limits the competition / market, with rules in place such as complicated qualification rounds, geographical distances and obligations to their sponsors. The alternative I'm suggesting is the sponsorship dollars get spread across through natural supply / demand instead in the form of a large international site with a free market system.
IMO this could work with a massive website where people can sign up and play and win money in tournaments. This would provide a living for both the players and the casters, and provide an even better option for viewers which in turn attract sponsors - basically aiming to become a sustainable industry in itself. ATM playhem is closest to this model.
So on this site there are MANY various tournaments held DAILY with various prizes and as the entrance fees go up so do the prizes. The tournament entrance fees range from $0.01 for the lower levels to $50 entrance fees for the big leagues where you see $1,500 first prizes for say, 32 player tournaments. All the money goes to the players after minusing transaction costs.
Smurfing: Naturally lower league players won't want to waste time earning less when they can be earning more at their skill level at a higher league. So although they can play in the $0.01 cent games it doesn't make sense.. they end up winning $0.5 or something when they could be winning $5 with the skill level they have. So the tournaments will end up evening itself out naturally..
Casters: Everyone can stream, just like the playhem tournaments. People will naturally decide themselves who are the best and then watch them. Website is able to track viewers and over time these casters earn better priority and can stream the big events. Casters who are good are supported and get money from donations / adverts. This way it weeds out the bad casters and overall viewing quality is improved.
Players: The many daily tournaments provide a proper daily income for players and encourages skilled players who wanna go pro to try harder. You win what you earn. The best players will earn alot, and invest more in playing. The good but not great players still have a chance by practicing hard in their respective league levels and can get encouraged to play more after winning the smaller prizes. Best of all those players who aren't good enough won't have to risk going pro or moving to another country, they will just stop playing because they can't make enough to support themselves.
Sponsors: They pay for the entrance fees of their players. They get certain exposure on the website deliberately such as in the match preview / brackets it has their team logo / and sponsors are shown on the team pages in the website. This has to be set up very carefully so sponsors have the incentive to support their players and get more exposure. Perhaps all streamers will be require to download an overlay that is scripted from the brackets that display the sponsors of both teams, player profile details and stats etc. Money is not wasted on fat salaries for non-performing players and naturally the players who win the most end up getting sponsored, giving the sponsors a return they can "measure".
Site: Doesn't take rake or make a commission. Pretty sure has to be this way or Blizzard will shut it down or want to be involved. They earn revenue from advertisements from gaming companies like Roccat, Razer, Steelseries etc and google ads. They will do okay because if it takes off ALOT of people will be visiting the site. And perhaps they have the money to pay the admins who run the site / tournaments so its self-sustaining.
Admins: Everything is automated as much as possible on the site. One admin per tournament for disputes. Players awarded karma points after disputes to discourage BM / cheating and to make the lives of admins easier.
Live Events: Not sure how this will be done. I honestly think live events are a huge waste of money for everyone involved, from the sponsors who pay the air tickets to the tournament organizers who have to hire a venue. Alot of sponsorship money is being lost there on expensive air tickets / venues which could be better used elsewhere. TSL3 for example was carried out online (except the finals) and it was fantastic and there isn't LAN anymore so game quality doesn't improve live, in fact it inconveniences players who must adjust to jetlag and a new playing envrionment. Sponsors are given adequate coverage online already, for every event there are so many more viewers online watching then those in attendance at the live event.
IMO if a site like this exists the eSports industry will be able to grow faster and further, it will be self-sustaining and able to support the livelihood for many players and casters. For recreational players there will be games to watch everyday, or tournaments that cost almost nothing $0.01-$0.25 to play in. Our player database is there already in terms of size, we need to get all of them playing on one site and yea playhem is closest to this I don't think they have any plans to start charging though I could be wrong.
Anyway those are my thoughts for a sustainable model, and it has to use a free market system.
Someone get this man a medal, this is genius.
Reading that model... it sounds like the same format as internet poker sites (which, admittedly, have been working just fine for them). I'd support this kind of model. PPV is not the way to go. PPP (Pay per play) sounds more reasonable.
As a consumer and SC2 fan, I'd rank the value of an MLG tournament above that of most movies. I'd rather pay $8 for 3 days of MLG than the $8 I paid for Captain America (and that movie was ok). I have a real job now, but I'd like to say this would be true back when I was a broke-ass college student, too. I certainly paid $8 for 2 hours of mediocre movies back then.
However, when I hear PPV for SC2, I feel like that implies bigger dollar figures. I'm skeptical that people would pay $20-$30 for one tournament. Obviously, there's a sweet spot and I hope that organizers figure out what that is. I definitely believe that sc2 tournaments and leagues provide a service with real value and I hope they find the business model that sustains it.
I wonder what would happen if MLG charged $8 to watch all games for a tournament, but gave the first game of each match away for free (similar to GSL). How many subscribers would it take to make that worthwhile?
On February 10 2012 05:06 Klipsys wrote: How many people would have paid for SC2 if you could play on Battle.Net with a pirated copy? That's the problem, the culture of gaming isn't used to spending money for things that they can get for free. If I go to demonid right now, and cross check the IP's of the people who have torrented the GSL, and the people who post on TL calming to support e-sports, what's that going to look like?
if you can't even play on bnet 1.0 with a pirated copy and can only play on priv servers your argument is invalid. If there was an alternative server your argument would be valid.
It's not an argument, just a musing. I'm willing to wager that if you could play unchecked on Battle.net with a pirated copy, A LOT less people would have purchased SC2.
Such a large disconnect between what community feels it's entitled to and what it actually is. It's basically free entertainment for you all at the expense of organizers and companies that support events/teams. No sponsor makes back their investment. If they are big enough to drop money on sponsorships and such, chances are us gaming people already know of them and use their products.
Monetizing events needs to happen eventually, but at the same time; content quanity would need to grow too. Which isn't hard, these events have infrastructure already in place to create content, just need to do more of it. I watch the free MLG stream once every couple weekends to check out the latest event, I'd pay for it if I had to too. But I would jump up and volunteer that money if it included state of the game, fuck slasher, etc. because that is a consistent entertainment stream for me, just like TV etc
Hopefully some events get together and take the plunge to PPV type format, it's really the only way to be sustainable. Player pass fees can only last you so long
Really great discussion going on here, but I cannot read most of it as I am laughing so hard that I am crying at Blackfogers comment and the tears are blurring my vision!
I don't think leagues and tournaments and such should force people to pay if they want a quality product because that will just alienate a lot of people and not be worth it. I do think they could charge people for providing a really high quality product though.
I think I would be willing to spend some money on ESPORTS but I haven't done it that much yet simply because the leagues have not offered a product that is something that is so much better than what I get for free. GSL tickets are the only thing I can really think of now.
On February 10 2012 05:22 SirScoots wrote: Really great discussion going on here, but I cannot read most of it as I am laughing so hard that I am crying at Blackfogers comment and the tears are blurring my vision!
That was the funniest thing on TL in a long, long time
I personally think that if competitions want to start charging for their services, then they are going to have to make them worth paying for. There's so many free tournaments to watch all the time. And people are content with watching a lower quality stream if it is free.
GSL charges to watch VODs, and because it's on at a time where most people aren't able to watch it, people are willing to pay for a month's worth of a tournament because it's pretty much the best run tournament there is so far imo.
I feel like if MLG or similar foreign events were a PPV thing, and you could not watch it at all unless you paid for it, then I believe that the numbers would drop significantly.
I feel like it works a lot better in Korea for BW because they have much bigger sponsors behind the events and teams.
PPV has its limits. For now, we want to expand the audience. We can't focus solely on monetization. Most of the companies now realize this, and are consequently making huge investments. It would be hard to expand with a PPV model, but the fact that right now you can give your friend a stream link to the starcraft biggest tournaments and he/she can watch them free helps create a huge audience. Once this audience is achieved, then we'll feel the effects of monetization. Hopefully this won't be in the form of stream fees but rather selling clothing/branded stuff, (for example, how NBA sells jerseys).
On February 10 2012 05:17 SupLilSon wrote: Also, does anyone know how Broodwar viewing is done in Korea? Would it be possible to emulate whatever system they use? It is successful, no?
Step 1 would be to have a game at least as good as Brood War.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it.
My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be.
The point is... you don't care about watching Starcraft? Some of us are spectators. I watch NFL/College football and Starcraft. Those are the two competitive things I enjoy watching. You might as well go to a thread about the popularity of baseball and just scream "I DONT CARE ABOUT BASEBALL!! BASEBALL IS JUST SOMETHING I PLAY SOMETIMES! I DONT WANT TO WATCH IT AND NEITHER DO MOST PEOPLE!". Because.. that is basically what you are saying. It isn't adding anything valuable to the conversation.
I don't think anybody can deny that theres almost always at least 30+k viewers watching some form of Starcraft. That's pretty much 'at any random time during the day'. Probably more if you counted the people watching VoDs(that we can't get a number for). Do you people realize that many channels can't hit 300k viewers most nights? The very top shows for specific time slots rarely get over 700k-800k viewers. Many networks survive on mostly ~100k/viewers shows, with a few of their 'top' shows getting 200-300k. It isn't that far off from where SC2 peak viewer times sit and it is only growing. I just don't see a point to come in to this thread and go HAHA PPL DONT WATCH STARCRAFT!!
On February 10 2012 05:17 SupLilSon wrote: Also, does anyone know how Broodwar viewing is done in Korea? Would it be possible to emulate whatever system they use? It is successful, no?
Step 1 would be to have a game at least as good as Brood War.
Your opinion of BW>SC2 is not needed. If you'd like to discuss monetization of SC2 feel free to post again.
I really hate to generalize but I think 99% of all this has to do with people's attitudes. It's the Internet/reddit/I refuse to buy movies and music legally etc entitlement. I'm 22 years old and I buy all my music on iTunes and movies at BestBuy (I know I'm an exception). Why can't we do the same for Starcraft. The same people that donated 3500 dollars in 1 hr to get MKP to MLG, can't spend 20 bucks a month to have the ability to watch him compete live in GSL or MLG?
These players who go pro give up some of the most important years of their lives in terms of making a career that can sustain you for the rest of your life, they do this for a game they will be probably obsolete at in 2 years. And guess what, they make such shitty money doing it. Sure they love the game and it's their choice, but that doesn't mean we can't have some appreciation for what they sacrifice. And that appreciation should translate into a way to make esports sustainable.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it.
My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be.
The point is... you don't care about watching Starcraft? Some of us are spectators. I watch NFL/College football and Starcraft. Those are the two competitive things I enjoy watching. You might as well go to a thread about the popularity of baseball and just scream "I DONT CARE ABOUT BASEBALL!! BASEBALL IS JUST SOMETHING I PLAY SOMETIMES! I DONT WANT TO WATCH IT AND NEITHER DO MOST PEOPLE!". Because.. that is basically what you are saying. It isn't adding anything valuable to the conversation.
There is no reason not to donate if someone is streaming something really enjoyable, of good quality or otherwise worth it and I'm positive there are a lot of people who would donate.
Viewers themselves are a reward for a streamer. I don't see a real need for monetization, certainly not in a form of forcing people to pay for streams.
On February 10 2012 05:19 xSixGeneralHan wrote: Such a large disconnect between what community feels it's entitled to and what it actually is. It's basically free entertainment for you all at the expense of organizers and companies that support events/teams. No sponsor makes back their investment. If they are big enough to drop money on sponsorships and such, chances are us gaming people already know of them and use their products.
Monetizing events needs to happen eventually, but at the same time; content quanity would need to grow too. Which isn't hard, these events have infrastructure already in place to create content, just need to do more of it. I watch the free MLG stream once every couple weekends to check out the latest event, I'd pay for it if I had to too. But I would jump up and volunteer that money if it included state of the game, fuck slasher, etc. because that is a consistent entertainment stream for me, just like TV etc
Hopefully some events get together and take the plunge to PPV type format, it's really the only way to be sustainable. Player pass fees can only last you so long
Hundreds of thousands of viewers doesnt make money for sponsers? I doubt that lol. If the sponsers were actually LOSING money, then they would pull out.
Look how many sponsers EG has. Do you think for 1 second that, if they were not getting some sort of profit/value out of EG, they would still continue to support them? No lol. They dont support "esports" for the sake of charity. No sponser would be willing to take a direct hit to their wallet just to be a "nice guy".
If I never knew about sc2, do you think I would have bought all of the sc2-related clothing that I currently have? No. Would
I hate energy drinks because of the carbonated and soda-like nature of them, but then I heard of Monster Rehab from Geoff and now I love that drink. WOuld I have bought that drink if I didnt hear it from him? Most likely not.
Players, teams, and events influence fans to buy things that they otherwise wouldnt have if they never knew about these games. And if I havent heard of MLG before, would I take a risk and purchase a ticket to watch it? Hell no I wouldnt. All of the FREE content is allowing me to get deeper into this community, influencing the things I spend money on AND what I spend my free time watching/doing. "Free" isnt always a bad thing.
On February 10 2012 05:37 zimz wrote: Go ahead and try it the scene will become bootlegs galore or shrink to a pulp.
that's like saying either die of starvation or die right now
not a sustainable model at all
if there's no return on investment for the companies to make a profit there's actually literally no point in a company to waste resources on that "industry" then.
On February 10 2012 05:17 SupLilSon wrote: Also, does anyone know how Broodwar viewing is done in Korea? Would it be possible to emulate whatever system they use? It is successful, no?
Step 1 would be to have a game at least as good as Brood War.
Your opinion of BW>SC2 is not needed. If you'd like to discuss monetization of SC2 feel free to post again.
Sure, I can do that. To be fair though, to monetize something it IS helpful to have a good product.
However, there is still hope for SC2, because many not-so-good products have been successfully monetized. SC2 is beginning to experience the inevitable complete domination of Korean players over foreigners, and this is bad news because the foreign scene (aka potential money sources) thrives on foreign player drama and personalities. No whitey = no green, and god knows Korea isn't going to support the SC2 scene itself.
I recommend making a shift to professional-wrestling style full-time official player drama coverage. Maybe you could put Idra, Stephano, Naniwa, Ret, HuK, and InControl in a house together and film their wacky adventures, where they describe their daily proceedings using SC2 terms like Big Bang Theory humor. At the end of each episode a player gets knocked out of the GSL again, but it's a heartwarming learning experience about passion and friendship and everyone's got eachother's backs so it leaves you with a fuzzy good feeling.
On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote: [quote]
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it.
My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be.
The point is... you don't care about watching Starcraft? Some of us are spectators. I watch NFL/College football and Starcraft. Those are the two competitive things I enjoy watching. You might as well go to a thread about the popularity of baseball and just scream "I DONT CARE ABOUT BASEBALL!! BASEBALL IS JUST SOMETHING I PLAY SOMETIMES! I DONT WANT TO WATCH IT AND NEITHER DO MOST PEOPLE!". Because.. that is basically what you are saying. It isn't adding anything valuable to the conversation.
That's not at all what I was saying but ok.
People here are so defensive. I'm pretty sure there's a smaller percentage of people with the economic means and the drive to actually pay for SC2 compared to NFL football. The gaming crowd is just very fickle and the "sport" isn't stable in the slightest. Other sports have a very solid amateur base, i'm pretty sure SC2 is just losing ground every month in actual casual/amateur players. People watch the tournaments because it's fun and something to do but there's not really much in organized low level play.
Also video games as a medium isn't really ideal for supporting a stable sound economical ground for competitive gaming. There's new games all the time, stuff doesn't age that well and everything depends on the devs actually balancing the game. Compared to most sports a "esports" game is very fickle and doesn't really have a long term.
On February 10 2012 05:25 ChoboFreek wrote: I personally think that if competitions want to start charging for their services, then they are going to have to make them worth paying for. There's so many free tournaments to watch all the time. And people are content with watching a lower quality stream if it is free.
GSL charges to watch VODs, and because it's on at a time where most people aren't able to watch it, people are willing to pay for a month's worth of a tournament because it's pretty much the best run tournament there is so far imo.
I feel like if MLG or similar foreign events were a PPV thing, and you could not watch it at all unless you paid for it, then I believe that the numbers would drop significantly.
I feel like it works a lot better in Korea for BW because they have much bigger sponsors behind the events and teams.
I wouldn't guarantee that. I pay for and watch both the MLG and GSL. My favorite is MLG mostly because of the drama and the fact that tournament is compressed. Whether its the best games or not, there is a BIG following for MLG and it definitely entertains its audience.
Perhaps MLG can't charge as much as GSL, but I'd wager there's a price point that makes sense for consumers, and I bet its over $5 per tournament. For whatever a guess from a random forum reader with no hard data is worth.
On February 10 2012 05:42 gnatinator wrote: PPV is likely not the right business model for esports. Trying to fit a square peg into a round hole just reaks of corporate laziness.
The numbers for UFC are massively inflated due to its broadcast in gyms, bars, etc. These numbers do not directly translate into $20-$30 each.
this is soo true, I don't know anyone who actually orders UFC through ppv, all my friends usually just head to the bar
On February 10 2012 05:17 SupLilSon wrote: Also, does anyone know how Broodwar viewing is done in Korea? Would it be possible to emulate whatever system they use? It is successful, no?
Step 1 would be to have a game at least as good as Brood War.
Your opinion of BW>SC2 is not needed. If you'd like to discuss monetization of SC2 feel free to post again.
Sure, I can do that. To be fair though, to monetize something it IS helpful to have a good product.
However, there is still hope for SC2, because many not-so-good products have been successfully monetized. SC2 is beginning to experience the inevitable complete domination of Korean players over foreigners, and this is bad news because the foreign scene (aka potential money sources) thrives on foreign player drama and personalities. No whitey = no green, and god knows Korea isn't going to support the SC2 scene itself.
I recommend making a shift to professional-wrestling style full-time official player drama coverage. Maybe you could put Idra, Stephano, Naniwa, Ret, HuK, and InControl in a house together and film their wacky adventures, where they describe their daily proceedings using SC2 terms like Big Bang Theory humor. At the end of each episode a player gets knocked out of the GSL again, but it's a heartwarming learning experience about passion and friendship and everyone's got eachother's backs so it leaves you with a fuzzy good feeling.
Bring on the BW vs SC2 debate in this thread too. I love it!
On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote: [quote]
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it.
My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be.
The point is... you don't care about watching Starcraft? Some of us are spectators. I watch NFL/College football and Starcraft. Those are the two competitive things I enjoy watching. You might as well go to a thread about the popularity of baseball and just scream "I DONT CARE ABOUT BASEBALL!! BASEBALL IS JUST SOMETHING I PLAY SOMETIMES! I DONT WANT TO WATCH IT AND NEITHER DO MOST PEOPLE!". Because.. that is basically what you are saying. It isn't adding anything valuable to the conversation.
That's not at all what I was saying but ok.
People here are so defensive. I'm pretty sure there's a smaller percentage of people with the economic means and the drive to actually pay for SC2 compared to NFL football. The gaming crowd is just very fickle and the "sport" isn't stable in the slightest. Other sports have a very solid amateur base, i'm pretty sure SC2 is just losing ground every month in actual casual/amateur players. People watch the tournaments because it's fun and something to do but there's not really much in organized low level play.
Also video games as a medium isn't really ideal for supporting a stable sound economical ground for competitive gaming. There's new games all the time, stuff doesn't age that well and everything depends on the devs actually balancing the game. Compared to most sports a "esports" game is very fickle and doesn't really have a long term.
Yay another person screaming "PPL DONT CARE ABOUT STARCRAFT THEY JUST WATCH AS A HOBBY!!!" Watching something as a hobby is the same as watching SC2 as a hobby. I don't see your point. I don't pay for the NFL. I WOULD happily pay for the NFL if my cable provider had the NFL network I watch advertisements and companies pay to show them to me. That is what is happening with SC2 already but there MUST be something wrong with the pricemodel or there are too many people abusing adblock. There are so many cable network shoes that get <100k/viewers and thers 25-30k SC2 viewers watching These networks are running ads. They are surviving and they MUST have a higher cost of operation compared to the cost required to run SC2 tournaments.
What is the point? We know the model works. Look at South Korea and stop ignoring it by constantly screaming that people don't 'care about watching SC2'. The number of people watching streams/VoDs is getting closer and closer to many many shows on many networks that still manage to stay on the air. It's just a matter of raising viewership. So many obscure sports that get moderate views(<100k) are ON TV RIGHT NOW. Same with many obscure shows.
On February 10 2012 02:14 Sapphire.lux wrote: PPV will make it highly unlikely that new people will get in to SC2 and a very large part of the ones already in will leave. The only outcome, IMO, is complete death.
I don't want to offend anyone but the comparison with MMA is ... wrong, to be gentle. MMA is about two men fighting each other, something that we all did since the day we could walk. Its in our nature as human beings (living beings for that matter). SC2, is a FUCKING VIDEO GAME, a quite complicated one at that. You need a lot of time to understand what the hell is going on at the most basic level, can anybody be so cretin to think that mr Joe will "just give SC2 a shot" (pay for something that he barely understands)
I agree with Liquid`Nazgul on all points.
It will take some visionary thinking to make eSports profitable, just like in any other business.If you can't think of anything other then directly charging the viewer? You die.
I also have to laugh at some posters that present the matra of "spoiled" fans/ charity/ etc. In every little thing in life (and business) is never, ever ever the fault of the "people"/ community. If something fails is the complete and absolute responsibility of those at the top, in other word, bad business-man.
/rant :p
I disagree that SC2 will die or NOT grow if you charge for quality streams. The fans grow because they play the game or are brought on by other fans. This happens regardless.
A guy like you whose approach towards the community is, and I quote, "I'm sick of every one of these whiny little monkeys hanging around on a free stream. Fuck'em. Start chargin'em.", has no position speaking about fans. You belong as far away from the SC2 community as possible and WILL be ostracized and filtered out like the raw sewage that you are sooner rather than later. Don't worry though, there's always a spot for people like you in Kotick's personal marketing posse.
I thought about not posting here, but then had to put my 2 cents in as far as monetization comes, from a grass roots perspective.
I organized and run a regional SC2 league that has been slowly increasing it's production value over the +1yr that it has been around. As of recent, we were able to grab a studio to use to increase the quality even more with use of green screen and stuff like that. Now, if you look up New England SC2 League, or got to the NESC2League on Twitch and leaf up through everything you can see that whole process take place up to where we now have studio access. The thing is, the studio access is free.. for now. It won't be free forever, especially if the space is needed for paying customers.
Have I asked people for a dime to help out? No. Did I recently put a ChipIn! in the stream bio? Yes. But that won't last forever, especially if I want to do this with a semi-pro league come July and maintain quality across all the streams. From the grassroots perspective, ads won't cut maintaining something of our size due to the restricted viewership.
Doing PPV in the size that I keep seeing in here is quite ambitious, but I think it's a supply and demand thing. A lower price will fetch more people than a higher price. And at my level, I think I'd be lucky if I did $10/yr for HD stream to cover all the channels I'll be putting out.
What I'm trying to say is that, as early of this bubble is on E-Sports, charging the large amounts of money for something won't work en mass. Charging a very low price makes it seem a lot more resonable and doesn't scare off potential viewers. Skip the vending machine one day and you are in HD for a month of content and you're supporting the growth of a scene from the entertainment POV. Notice, growth of entertainment.
On February 10 2012 05:42 gnatinator wrote: PPV is likely not the right business model for esports. Trying to fit a square peg into a round hole just reaks of corporate laziness.
The numbers for UFC are massively inflated due to its broadcast in gyms, bars, etc. These numbers do not directly translate into $20-$30 each.
I'd second that. In the case,Home consumers get UFC because they can often split the cost with friends and throw a big party. That's because anyone, whether they follow UFC or not, can watch it and be entertained.
SC2 is great, but it isnt that accessible. Most home viewers are probably going to be watching by themselves, perhaps BSing with some friends online about the game.
In short, I think sc2 costs have to make sense to one individual who's probably footing the bill all by himself.
On February 10 2012 05:19 xSixGeneralHan wrote: Such a large disconnect between what community feels it's entitled to and what it actually is. It's basically free entertainment for you all at the expense of organizers and companies that support events/teams. No sponsor makes back their investment. If they are big enough to drop money on sponsorships and such, chances are us gaming people already know of them and use their products.
Monetizing events needs to happen eventually, but at the same time; content quanity would need to grow too. Which isn't hard, these events have infrastructure already in place to create content, just need to do more of it. I watch the free MLG stream once every couple weekends to check out the latest event, I'd pay for it if I had to too. But I would jump up and volunteer that money if it included state of the game, fuck slasher, etc. because that is a consistent entertainment stream for me, just like TV etc
Hopefully some events get together and take the plunge to PPV type format, it's really the only way to be sustainable. Player pass fees can only last you so long
Hundreds of thousands of viewers doesnt make money for sponsers? I doubt that lol. If the sponsers were actually LOSING money, then they would pull out.
Look how many sponsers EG has. Do you think for 1 second that, if they were not getting some sort of profit/value out of EG, they would still continue to support them? No lol. They dont support "esports" for the sake of charity. No sponser would be willing to take a direct hit to their wallet just to be a "nice guy".
If I never knew about sc2, do you think I would have bought all of the sc2-related clothing that I currently have? No. Would
I hate energy drinks because of the carbonated and soda-like nature of them, but then I heard of Monster Rehab from Geoff and now I love that drink. WOuld I have bought that drink if I didnt hear it from him? Most likely not.
Players, teams, and events influence fans to buy things that they otherwise wouldnt have if they never knew about these games. And if I havent heard of MLG before, would I take a risk and purchase a ticket to watch it? Hell no I wouldnt. All of the FREE content is allowing me to get deeper into this community, influencing the things I spend money on AND what I spend my free time watching/doing. "Free" isnt always a bad thing.
There are always exceptions like ihearesports stickers or split reason etc, that make esports related merchandise. Of course your not gonna buy it if you have no clue about sc2 or who iheartesports is etc.
And sure your example of monster is nice and all but my point was, does yourself buying that rehab make up for how much monster spends in esports to get that exposure. Maybe, maybe not. All depends on how much they spend as a company vs how many direct sales they get out of it. And last time I checked, my 7-11 doesn't have a survey for me on why I bought a monster rehab. It might have just been the kick ass top to the bottle.
Maybe monster's ROI isnt about direct sales correlating to money spent. So specific examples can go either way. That's why I generalized about sponsors not getting back what they paid.
Either way, sponsorships come and go, it isn't sustainable income for events, teams, or players. And also some of the reasons why you see 1 year go buy before IEM players get paid, any event for that matter.
On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote: [quote] If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it.
My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be.
The point is... you don't care about watching Starcraft? Some of us are spectators. I watch NFL/College football and Starcraft. Those are the two competitive things I enjoy watching. You might as well go to a thread about the popularity of baseball and just scream "I DONT CARE ABOUT BASEBALL!! BASEBALL IS JUST SOMETHING I PLAY SOMETIMES! I DONT WANT TO WATCH IT AND NEITHER DO MOST PEOPLE!". Because.. that is basically what you are saying. It isn't adding anything valuable to the conversation.
That's not at all what I was saying but ok.
People here are so defensive. I'm pretty sure there's a smaller percentage of people with the economic means and the drive to actually pay for SC2 compared to NFL football. The gaming crowd is just very fickle and the "sport" isn't stable in the slightest. Other sports have a very solid amateur base, i'm pretty sure SC2 is just losing ground every month in actual casual/amateur players. People watch the tournaments because it's fun and something to do but there's not really much in organized low level play.
Also video games as a medium isn't really ideal for supporting a stable sound economical ground for competitive gaming. There's new games all the time, stuff doesn't age that well and everything depends on the devs actually balancing the game. Compared to most sports a "esports" game is very fickle and doesn't really have a long term.
Yay another person screaming "PPL DONT CARE ABOUT STARCRAFT THEY JUST WATCH AS A HOBBY!!!" Watching something as a hobby is the same as watching SC2 as a hobby. I don't see your point. I don't pay for the NFL. I WOULD happily pay for the NFL if my cable provider had the NFL network I watch advertisements and companies pay to show them to me. That is what is happening with SC2 already but there MUST be something wrong with the pricemodel or there are too many people abusing adblock. There are so many cable network shoes that get <100k/viewers and thers 25-30k SC2 viewers watching These networks are running ads. They are surviving and they MUST have a higher cost of operation compared to the cost required to run SC2 tournaments.
What is the point? We know the model works. Look at South Korea and stop ignoring it by constantly screaming that people don't 'care about watching SC2'. The number of people watching streams/VoDs is getting closer and closer to many many shows on many networks that still manage to stay on the air. It's just a matter of raising viewership. So many obscure sports that get moderate views(<100k) are ON TV RIGHT NOW. Same with many obscure shows.
You fail to realize that the online viewers are from all over the world but your examples are from local television. There's a huge difference between a swedish/american/brittish broadcast and a worldwide one.
I'm not saying that people don't care. I'm saying that SC2 doesn't really have the infrastructure nor the appeal to become big like most regular sports. There's no thriving amateur scene nor is there a long term goal as everyone knows videogames get replaced with better looking ones eventually.
On February 10 2012 05:42 gnatinator wrote: PPV is likely not the right business model for esports. Trying to fit a square peg into a round hole just reaks of corporate laziness.
The numbers for UFC are massively inflated due to its broadcast in gyms, bars, etc. These numbers do not directly translate into $20-$30 each.
Reading so many comments found one that was sort of right. Now lets say the PPV model they have 1-2 matches that only last a few hours. I can't see anyone spending 40 for a 3 day pass and sitting there watching every single match. Not to mention got to factor the production quality into it can you say that esports warrants spending that sort of money comparing to NFL or MMA etc, short answer is no.
Our community is already small on the list of things to begin with doing a PPV would alienate most of the niche market we pander to. Also most gaming is using the free model new MMO's valve games such as TF2 where you can buy items instead of monthly has been making a ton of profit.
The main reason a sport grows is getting a big as possible viewership and making money off of that PERIOD. Don't give me bullshit that PPV is better then how NFL is working. NFL currently has most viewers in america period and they don't have any PPV model. Not saying there isn't NFL packages to buy for your TV but its always free content. The reason NFL works they sell advertising commercials, ads on the stadiums, "pepsi official sponsors of NFL".
To make a sport grow you want to think long term, SC2 has so many players and teams you can't do PPV model it's just too much of a headache and you would have to pay ALL tournaments a percentage of that money. Why would I pay $50 a month for GSL when I can watch Dreamhack IPL for free(No I don't pay for GSL pass).
On February 10 2012 02:14 Sapphire.lux wrote: PPV will make it highly unlikely that new people will get in to SC2 and a very large part of the ones already in will leave. The only outcome, IMO, is complete death.
I don't want to offend anyone but the comparison with MMA is ... wrong, to be gentle. MMA is about two men fighting each other, something that we all did since the day we could walk. Its in our nature as human beings (living beings for that matter). SC2, is a FUCKING VIDEO GAME, a quite complicated one at that. You need a lot of time to understand what the hell is going on at the most basic level, can anybody be so cretin to think that mr Joe will "just give SC2 a shot" (pay for something that he barely understands)
I agree with Liquid`Nazgul on all points.
It will take some visionary thinking to make eSports profitable, just like in any other business.If you can't think of anything other then directly charging the viewer? You die.
I also have to laugh at some posters that present the matra of "spoiled" fans/ charity/ etc. In every little thing in life (and business) is never, ever ever the fault of the "people"/ community. If something fails is the complete and absolute responsibility of those at the top, in other word, bad business-man.
/rant :p
I disagree that SC2 will die or NOT grow if you charge for quality streams. The fans grow because they play the game or are brought on by other fans. This happens regardless.
A guy like you whose approach towards the community is, and I quote, "I'm sick of every one of these whiny little monkeys hanging around on a free stream. Fuck'em. Start chargin'em.", has no position speaking about fans. You belong as far away from the SC2 community as possible and WILL be ostracized and filtered out like the raw sewage that you are sooner rather than later. Don't worry though, there's always a spot for people like you in Kotick's personal marketing posse.
So apparently wanting competitive SC2 to be sustainable makes you a greedy corporate shill?
As a fan with no financial stake in the success or failure of SC2 or e-sports as a whole, I agree with him. What's weird to me is that you are so defensive of the types of people who bitch endlessly in stream chat while they enjoy a free stream.
On February 10 2012 04:39 Liquid`NonY wrote: ... I'll be damned if most esports fans don't have $30/month to spend for the many hours of entertainment they get from esports. They just feel entitled (not entirely their fault) and they feel some irrational hatred for anyone who is trying to turn a profit, pay their employees and guarantee that the content that everyone loves continues to be produced. ...
I don`t know how much money kids have at their disposal in the states, but in Germany most kids just can`t afford to pay 30 bucks/month for PPV fees. What about the students? they need the money for more important stuff - like books, beer or other food. These groups are the backbone of the eSports scene and I`m pretty sure only a small part of it could pay those 30 bucks/month. Whats the end of the story? the scene shrinks and everybody loses if we end up with PPV for everything.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I think there's this perception that companies are making money, but I doubt they are.
It's a tough spot. Monetize and people revolt and you die. Don't monetize and you slowly drown. I don't know how it's going to work. Maybe you have to completely level up the broadcast to a completely different place where people expect to pay for that quality? No idea.
Edit: No one seems to treat this as a business. There's a feeling things should be free because they want it to grow. Until we get past that and make it a business, it'll never be more than a niche market, which is fine, but it is what it is.
It's a pity that a majority of people aren't going to read this post, because what most need to understand is that the spectators are going to have to put forth more money to keep esports like Starcraft 2 alive. There's a reason BW never caught on in the US and that's because no one was willing to put forth the money, which meant that everyone just lived with the Korean streams.
At the current moment, we fans have a great opportunity to start supporting esports by giving these organizations more money, but a lot of people don't act on it. I'm not going to count myself out here, because I'm guilty as the rest of you, but now that I realize that if I don't do something, what has become one of my favorite things to watch will fizzle out into obscurity... just like I thought it was before I knew it was there.
I think what we need is a picture and rant to be done by either players or Day[9] or someone to show that while there are certain parts of this whole thing that are making money (aka single user streaming like Day[9], Destiny, Dragon), the bigger companies with multiple people behind the scenes working their asses off are actually losing money.... or breaking even.
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that most people see Starcraft 2 as a hobby, which is why they don't care to pay for premimum streams and would prefer to watch everything for free. The problem I see with this argument is that every other hobby you have, like stamp collecting, or magic the gathering, or playing music all require some sort of investment in both time and money. You can't just get your stamps for free, or your magic cards, or your guitar - None of these things are free and will eventually require not just one investment, but future investments to continue this hobby.
The same is for watching Starcraft 2 - If you like watching SC2, why is it so bad to commit money to this hobby? Not just a one time purchase, but future purchases to go with it just like any other hobby. It seems to me that people are just being selfish, most likely due to a lack of understanding, when they claim that they shouldn't need to spend money to watch Starcraft 2.
What it boils down to is that if you truly support something, the amount of money it costs should be mostly irrelevant. If you don't have the money, then I'm not really sure how you have the time.
On February 10 2012 05:42 gnatinator wrote: PPV is likely not the right business model for esports. Trying to fit a square peg into a round hole just reaks of corporate laziness.
The numbers for UFC are massively inflated due to its broadcast in gyms, bars, etc. These numbers do not directly translate into $20-$30 each.
this is soo true, I don't know anyone who actually orders UFC through ppv, all my friends usually just head to the bar
Yeah and bars pay good money to broadcast it there, they make it over many times by us drinking haha. UFC gets their money either way.
On February 10 2012 02:14 Sapphire.lux wrote: PPV will make it highly unlikely that new people will get in to SC2 and a very large part of the ones already in will leave. The only outcome, IMO, is complete death.
I don't want to offend anyone but the comparison with MMA is ... wrong, to be gentle. MMA is about two men fighting each other, something that we all did since the day we could walk. Its in our nature as human beings (living beings for that matter). SC2, is a FUCKING VIDEO GAME, a quite complicated one at that. You need a lot of time to understand what the hell is going on at the most basic level, can anybody be so cretin to think that mr Joe will "just give SC2 a shot" (pay for something that he barely understands)
I agree with Liquid`Nazgul on all points.
It will take some visionary thinking to make eSports profitable, just like in any other business.If you can't think of anything other then directly charging the viewer? You die.
I also have to laugh at some posters that present the matra of "spoiled" fans/ charity/ etc. In every little thing in life (and business) is never, ever ever the fault of the "people"/ community. If something fails is the complete and absolute responsibility of those at the top, in other word, bad business-man.
/rant :p
I disagree that SC2 will die or NOT grow if you charge for quality streams. The fans grow because they play the game or are brought on by other fans. This happens regardless.
A guy like you whose approach towards the community is, and I quote, "I'm sick of every one of these whiny little monkeys hanging around on a free stream. Fuck'em. Start chargin'em.", has no position speaking about fans. You belong as far away from the SC2 community as possible and WILL be ostracized and filtered out like the raw sewage that you are sooner rather than later. Don't worry though, there's always a spot for people like you in Kotick's personal marketing posse.
So apparently wanting competitive SC2 to be sustainable makes you a greedy corporate shill?
As a fan with no financial stake in the success or failure of SC2 or e-sports as a whole, I agree with him. What's weird to me is that you are so defensive of the types of people who bitch endlessly in stream chat while they enjoy a free stream.
There are ways to go about monetizing something, some of them more clever than others. What's certain is that pure hatred towards a whole community is far from a healthy start. E-sports are an experimental market, there are no set rules, if you have no personal investment and passion for it all you will manage to do is fuck up everything you touch.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I think there's this perception that companies are making money, but I doubt they are.
It's a tough spot. Monetize and people revolt and you die. Don't monetize and you slowly drown. I don't know how it's going to work. Maybe you have to completely level up the broadcast to a completely different place where people expect to pay for that quality? No idea.
Edit: No one seems to treat this as a business. There's a feeling things should be free because they want it to grow. Until we get past that and make it a business, it'll never be more than a niche market, which is fine, but it is what it is.
It's a pity that a majority of people aren't going to read this post, because what most need to understand is that the spectators are going to have to put forth more money to keep esports like Starcraft 2 alive. There's a reason BW never caught on in the US and that's because no one was willing to put forth the money, which meant that everyone just lived with the Korean streams.
At the current moment, we fans have a great opportunity to start supporting esports by giving these organizations more money, but a lot of people don't act on it. I'm not going to count myself out here, because I'm guilty as the rest of you, but now that I realize that if I don't do something, what has become one of my favorite things to watch will fizzle out into obscurity... just like I thought it was before I knew it was there.
I think what we need is a picture and rant to be done by either players or Day[9] or someone to show that while there are certain parts of this whole thing that are making money (aka single user streaming like Day[9], Destiny, Dragon), the bigger companies with multiple people behind the scenes working their asses off are actually losing money.... or breaking even.
Someone mentioned earlier in this thread that most people see Starcraft 2 as a hobby, which is why they don't care to pay for premimum streams and would prefer to watch everything for free. The problem I see with this argument is that every other hobby you have, like stamp collecting, or magic the gathering, or playing music all require some sort of investment in both time and money. You can't just get your stamps for free, or your magic cards, or your guitar - None of these things are free and will eventually require not just one investment, but future investments to continue this hobby.
The same is for watching Starcraft 2 - If you like watching SC2, why is it so bad to commit money to this hobby? Not just a one time purchase, but future purchases to go with it just like any other hobby. It seems to me that people are just being selfish, most likely due to a lack of understanding, when they claim that they shouldn't need to spend money to watch Starcraft 2.
What it boils down to is that if you truly support something, the amount of money it costs should be mostly irrelevant. If you don't have the money, then I'm not really sure how you have the time.
Many people pay for the GSL and the GSL in itself provides the highest level play AND a shitload of games. Just watching the GSL for me (working full time) is a hassle and requires more time than i'd like to spend on SC2. There's just so much content with little incentive to watch. Why pay for IEM/DH/MLG when you can watch the player streamd and then watch the "best of the best" duke it out in the GSL?
The combination of a shallow pool of casual/amateur players, a overabundance of content, and the fact that no game lasts forever is what makes it hard to monetize SC2.
And please don't try to compare why you get free content from NFL, MLB, NBA, etc for free and esports should be the same. The models and scale couldn't be more different, it's a completely moot argument.
If you are going to charge UFC PPV prices I expect the same or better production quality for that money, none of this NASL production garbage. Right now only GSL offers a production that can be compared to UFC, and I wouldn't even say it is necessarily better.
Until there is a sufficient base of people with disposable income to spend on SC2, PPV models seem inferior to advertisement driven ones. Especially considering the fact that the demographics they cater to control a lot of spending (via parents, gifts, etc) but do not have large incomes.
If the average viewer were 30 or 35 then maybe PPV would make the most sense.
Wow, I actually just listened to the guys rant... he sounds like a total moron. Saying stuff like, "most people watching streams are kids who don't make money, and are probably sucking someone's dick". How exactly does he expect to gain fan support? Not to mention he talks about how he makes bank without actually working at all and cusses every other word while claiming to be "highly educated". No wonder VVV is going nowhere with this guys spearheading that organization.
On February 10 2012 02:14 Sapphire.lux wrote: PPV will make it highly unlikely that new people will get in to SC2 and a very large part of the ones already in will leave. The only outcome, IMO, is complete death.
I don't want to offend anyone but the comparison with MMA is ... wrong, to be gentle. MMA is about two men fighting each other, something that we all did since the day we could walk. Its in our nature as human beings (living beings for that matter). SC2, is a FUCKING VIDEO GAME, a quite complicated one at that. You need a lot of time to understand what the hell is going on at the most basic level, can anybody be so cretin to think that mr Joe will "just give SC2 a shot" (pay for something that he barely understands)
I agree with Liquid`Nazgul on all points.
It will take some visionary thinking to make eSports profitable, just like in any other business.If you can't think of anything other then directly charging the viewer? You die.
I also have to laugh at some posters that present the matra of "spoiled" fans/ charity/ etc. In every little thing in life (and business) is never, ever ever the fault of the "people"/ community. If something fails is the complete and absolute responsibility of those at the top, in other word, bad business-man.
/rant :p
I disagree that SC2 will die or NOT grow if you charge for quality streams. The fans grow because they play the game or are brought on by other fans. This happens regardless.
A guy like you whose approach towards the community is, and I quote, "I'm sick of every one of these whiny little monkeys hanging around on a free stream. Fuck'em. Start chargin'em.", has no position speaking about fans. You belong as far away from the SC2 community as possible and WILL be ostracized and filtered out like the raw sewage that you are sooner rather than later. Don't worry though, there's always a spot for people like you in Kotick's personal marketing posse.
So apparently wanting competitive SC2 to be sustainable makes you a greedy corporate shill?
As a fan with no financial stake in the success or failure of SC2 or e-sports as a whole, I agree with him. What's weird to me is that you are so defensive of the types of people who bitch endlessly in stream chat while they enjoy a free stream.
There are ways to go about monetizing something, some of them more clever than others. What's certain is that pure hatred towards a whole community is far from a healthy start. E-sports are an experimental market, there are no set rules, if you have no personal investment and passion for it all you will manage to do is fuck up everything you touch.
After reading through these quotes I have to say I do not have any respect for LordJerith and his position as head of vVv Gaming. His attitude has no place in the Starcraft community.
On February 10 2012 06:09 SupLilSon wrote: Wow, I actually just listened to the guys rant... he sounds like a total moron. Saying stuff like, "most people watching streams are kids who don't make money, and are probably sucking someone's dick". How exactly does he expect to gain fan support? Not to mention he talks about how he makes bank without actually working at all and cusses every other word while claiming to be "highly educated". No wonder VVV is going nowhere with this guys spearheading that organization.
I never said anything like that. Come on now. Please quote accurately, that is simply just not true.
As far as it being a rant, it's purpose is to stir the pot. Even if you disagree with how its delivered, I think it's best to stick to the topic of the message itself.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Chill,
that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part.
So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault.
BULLSHIT!!!
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience.
I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about:
If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game.
If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content.
On February 10 2012 05:42 gnatinator wrote: PPV is likely not the right business model for esports. Trying to fit a square peg into a round hole just reaks of corporate laziness.
The numbers for UFC are massively inflated due to its broadcast in gyms, bars, etc. These numbers do not directly translate into $20-$30 each.
this is soo true, I don't know anyone who actually orders UFC through ppv, all my friends usually just head to the bar
I'm not sure which numbers you're referring too because they report different numbers. They report live attendance (how many people in the stadium), live gate (how much they sold in tickets), BUY RATE (how many purchased the PPV, includes bar purchases) and viewership (how many people they speculate watch based on a lot of factors). The last item viewership could be inflated if they overestimate (I'm sure they do) but the buy rate (how many purchased) isn't inflated.
Also if you go to a bar to watch a UFC PPV, while you, yourself may be saving money, the bars can spend upwards $5,000 PER event. They don't pay the same rate as a private consumer. I'm sure some bars order it without proper licensing but it's illegal.
Anyway, I hope we get away from UFC (mma model) vs eSports soon, they aren't even close. Perhaps you can compare eSports now to MMA from 1999-2002 era.
On February 10 2012 06:09 SupLilSon wrote: Wow, I actually just listened to the guys rant... he sounds like a total moron. Saying stuff like, "most people watching streams are kids who don't make money, and are probably sucking someone's dick". How exactly does he expect to gain fan support? Not to mention he talks about how he makes bank without actually working at all and cusses every other word while claiming to be "highly educated". No wonder VVV is going nowhere with this guys spearheading that organization.
I never said anything like that. Come on now.
Are you serious? I almost quoted you word for word. Good thing your podcast is online so I can find the exact minute and second where you said that. 52:30 and onwards. Come on now.
On February 10 2012 02:14 Sapphire.lux wrote: PPV will make it highly unlikely that new people will get in to SC2 and a very large part of the ones already in will leave. The only outcome, IMO, is complete death.
I don't want to offend anyone but the comparison with MMA is ... wrong, to be gentle. MMA is about two men fighting each other, something that we all did since the day we could walk. Its in our nature as human beings (living beings for that matter). SC2, is a FUCKING VIDEO GAME, a quite complicated one at that. You need a lot of time to understand what the hell is going on at the most basic level, can anybody be so cretin to think that mr Joe will "just give SC2 a shot" (pay for something that he barely understands)
I agree with Liquid`Nazgul on all points.
It will take some visionary thinking to make eSports profitable, just like in any other business.If you can't think of anything other then directly charging the viewer? You die.
I also have to laugh at some posters that present the matra of "spoiled" fans/ charity/ etc. In every little thing in life (and business) is never, ever ever the fault of the "people"/ community. If something fails is the complete and absolute responsibility of those at the top, in other word, bad business-man.
/rant :p
I disagree that SC2 will die or NOT grow if you charge for quality streams. The fans grow because they play the game or are brought on by other fans. This happens regardless.
A guy like you whose approach towards the community is, and I quote, "I'm sick of every one of these whiny little monkeys hanging around on a free stream. Fuck'em. Start chargin'em.", has no position speaking about fans. You belong as far away from the SC2 community as possible and WILL be ostracized and filtered out like the raw sewage that you are sooner rather than later. Don't worry though, there's always a spot for people like you in Kotick's personal marketing posse.
So apparently wanting competitive SC2 to be sustainable makes you a greedy corporate shill?
As a fan with no financial stake in the success or failure of SC2 or e-sports as a whole, I agree with him. What's weird to me is that you are so defensive of the types of people who bitch endlessly in stream chat while they enjoy a free stream.
There are ways to go about monetizing something, some of them more clever than others. What's certain is that pure hatred towards a whole community is far from a healthy start. E-sports are an experimental market, there are no set rules, if you have no personal investment and passion for it all you will manage to do is fuck up everything you touch.
I agree that there are better ways to monetize. I'm still not seeing the whole "hatred for an entire community," thing in the quote you posted. That's a pretty kind way to describe the types of people who hang out whining in stream chats.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Chill,
that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part.
So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault.
BULLSHIT!!!
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience.
I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about:
If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game.
If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content.
I'm sorry but wtf? You say that someone creating content and wants to charge people for it are the ones to blame? Wanting to get paid for your work is asking for charity?
What do you do? You watch stuff for free and add nothing to the "esport" you watch beside maybe some commercial revenue. Where in the world do you get similar content for free, legally? The entitlement is just astounding, especially when you imply that esports dying would not be due to people being cheap.
On February 10 2012 06:09 SupLilSon wrote: Wow, I actually just listened to the guys rant... he sounds like a total moron. Saying stuff like, "most people watching streams are kids who don't make money, and are probably sucking someone's dick". How exactly does he expect to gain fan support? Not to mention he talks about how he makes bank without actually working at all and cusses every other word while claiming to be "highly educated". No wonder VVV is going nowhere with this guys spearheading that organization.
I never said anything like that. Come on now.
Are you serious? I almost quoted you word for word. Good thing your podcast is online so I can find the exact minute and second where you said that. 52:30 and onwards. Come on now.
I NEVER said they were "sucking dick." Yea, you "almost" quoted me alright, lol.
On February 10 2012 05:42 gnatinator wrote: PPV is likely not the right business model for esports. Trying to fit a square peg into a round hole just reaks of corporate laziness.
The numbers for UFC are massively inflated due to its broadcast in gyms, bars, etc. These numbers do not directly translate into $20-$30 each.
Wouldn't that make the number DEFLATED since there would be more people watching in a gym/bar/etc. than if each sale was a single individual?
On February 10 2012 06:09 SupLilSon wrote: Wow, I actually just listened to the guys rant... he sounds like a total moron. Saying stuff like, "most people watching streams are kids who don't make money, and are probably sucking someone's dick". How exactly does he expect to gain fan support? Not to mention he talks about how he makes bank without actually working at all and cusses every other word while claiming to be "highly educated". No wonder VVV is going nowhere with this guys spearheading that organization.
I never said anything like that. Come on now.
Are you serious? I almost quoted you word for word. Good thing your podcast is online so I can find the exact minute and second where you said that. 52:30 and onwards. Come on now.
Im pretty sure that hes saying "sucking of someones' tip" or something like that. Doesnt sound like "dick" to me.
But then again, just hearing this blabbering for like 2 minutes to check what he said, gave me a headache. To be honest? I dont know who he tried to impress, but dicking around and fishing for compliments doesnt really help.
edit: on a more serious note.. Im actually baffled that someone whos swearing and cursing all over the place in a public cast calls himself "highly educated". I actually think its pretty stupid, and your whole "performance" there pretty infantile.
If you want to look serious, be serious. Have a point and explain it. What you did is just "polemics", the kind of talk you do if youre close to clinical death in a bar with 3 friends.
On February 10 2012 05:42 gnatinator wrote: PPV is likely not the right business model for esports. Trying to fit a square peg into a round hole just reaks of corporate laziness.
The numbers for UFC are massively inflated due to its broadcast in gyms, bars, etc. These numbers do not directly translate into $20-$30 each.
Wouldn't that make the number DEFLATED since there would be more people watching in a gym/bar/etc. than if each sale was a single individual?
You're kidding yourself if you think UFC PR is counting viewers in that fashion.
On February 10 2012 05:42 gnatinator wrote: PPV is likely not the right business model for esports. Trying to fit a square peg into a round hole just reaks of corporate laziness.
The numbers for UFC are massively inflated due to its broadcast in gyms, bars, etc. These numbers do not directly translate into $20-$30 each.
Wouldn't that make the number DEFLATED since there would be more people watching in a gym/bar/etc. than if each sale was a single individual?
I'm pretty sure bars need to pay more to show the content OR the UFC has some kind of average viewer/bar thing that inflates numbers.
I've stopped paying for PPV @ home and go to bars with friends instead to view UFC. Why? Because like any eSport, the quality of the fights can be a coinflip and $45 to watch garbage when we can spend less on bills @ the bar makes more sense.
That said is he right? Probably, any business model is based off making money at the end of the day. Is it absolutely viable today like UFC? Probably not. Recall UFC's popularity has picked up more since the free series (Ultimate Fighter), and broadcasting of free fight nights here and there. eSports is no different, but eventually will have to transition to a PPV format period as costs increase, etc.
What needs to happen is the major organizations out there (MLG, IPL, IEM, NASL etc.) need to get together and work out a system that works for them.
At the moment all of them are just trying to deliver as much content as possible. They are fighting for broadcasting slots, viewers, sponsors, and the time of players. It just isn't sustainable. Some of them will die under the current system. And of course, since one of them doesn't charge, none of them can. How can any justify forcing payment if the others don't? It just doesn't make sense. Ad revenue and sponsors will only take you so far. But you don't create anything sustainable until the viewers are paying for something. With TV you pay for cable, with UFC you pay to watch the fights, with movies you pay for tickets... there is some overarching monetization system. That doesn't exist in SC2.
Unfortunately it can't exist until the major players start co-operating with each other.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Chill,
that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part.
So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault.
BULLSHIT!!!
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience.
I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about:
If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game.
If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content.
You call yourself a "consumer" and yet balk at paying any amount of money for the content you are receiving. This doesn't make you a "consumer" it makes you a parasite.
It's fairly obvious that you just don't want to give up your cushy situation where a vast amount of content is provided for free. I hate to break it to you, but the real world doesn't work that way. I know nothing of the finance behind these organizations and events, but if ad revenue isn't enough to keep the content flowing, they are more than justified in charging a reasonable amount to the consumer. A lot of people put in a lot of work into every tournament, and you want them to do it for free? That's just selfish.
That said, there are very few (read: GSL) events that I would (and do) pay a premium price for. If event organizers want to charge in the neighborhood of $20-$25 for premium passes, they better deliver on the production. None of this half-assed, technical difficulties, sound problems, long delays between games, etc. Right now, many tournaments still have those pitfalls and are absolutely not worth paying a premium price for HD content. They can continue to float on ad revenue and pittance prices ($5) for HD streams until they get their shit in gear.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it.
My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be.
The point is... you don't care about watching Starcraft? Some of us are spectators. I watch NFL/College football and Starcraft. Those are the two competitive things I enjoy watching. You might as well go to a thread about the popularity of baseball and just scream "I DONT CARE ABOUT BASEBALL!! BASEBALL IS JUST SOMETHING I PLAY SOMETIMES! I DONT WANT TO WATCH IT AND NEITHER DO MOST PEOPLE!". Because.. that is basically what you are saying. It isn't adding anything valuable to the conversation.
I don't think anybody can deny that theres almost always at least 30+k viewers watching some form of Starcraft. That's pretty much 'at any random time during the day'. Probably more if you counted the people watching VoDs(that we can't get a number for). Do you people realize that many channels can't hit 300k viewers most nights? The very top shows for specific time slots rarely get over 700k-800k viewers. Many networks survive on mostly ~100k/viewers shows, with a few of their 'top' shows getting 200-300k. It isn't that far off from where SC2 peak viewer times sit and it is only growing. I just don't see a point to come in to this thread and go HAHA PPL DONT WATCH STARCRAFT!!
On February 10 2012 05:42 gnatinator wrote: PPV is likely not the right business model for esports. Trying to fit a square peg into a round hole just reaks of corporate laziness.
The numbers for UFC are massively inflated due to its broadcast in gyms, bars, etc. These numbers do not directly translate into $20-$30 each.
Wouldn't that make the number DEFLATED since there would be more people watching in a gym/bar/etc. than if each sale was a single individual?
I'm pretty sure bars need to pay more to show the content OR the UFC has some kind of average viewer/bar thing that inflates numbers.
Commercial license is anywhere from 500 and on up depending how big the gathering is
Just throwing it in there, 22k viewers for IEM right now.
What a base to go for it, ..
Even IF they all of them would pay 10 bucks (which i am absolutely sure they wont), it wouldnt be enough to sustain a sufficient and professional produced stream. By far.
SC2 is a dead horse when it comes to making cash, it was from the beginning. Why? Because its to niche, at least for now.
edit: talking about premium prices here, i think no one would mind 5$/€ for a mediocre tournament. A HQ stream, i mean. Fees like GSL? Yeah, right. Cant wait to see the outcome of that, im actually really curious what the "goodbye letter" on TL.net would look like.
On February 10 2012 06:35 m4inbrain wrote: Just throwing it in there, 22k viewers for IEM right now.
What a base to go for it, ..
Even IF they all of them would pay 10 bucks (which i am absolutely sure they wont), it wouldnt be enough to sustain a sufficient and professional produced stream. By far.
SC2 is a dead horse when it comes to making cash, it was from the beginning. Why? Because its to niche, at least for now.
to be fair this IEM tournament is pretty bad, both production wise, and player pool
On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote: [quote]
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it.
My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be.
The point is... you don't care about watching Starcraft? Some of us are spectators. I watch NFL/College football and Starcraft. Those are the two competitive things I enjoy watching. You might as well go to a thread about the popularity of baseball and just scream "I DONT CARE ABOUT BASEBALL!! BASEBALL IS JUST SOMETHING I PLAY SOMETIMES! I DONT WANT TO WATCH IT AND NEITHER DO MOST PEOPLE!". Because.. that is basically what you are saying. It isn't adding anything valuable to the conversation.
I don't think anybody can deny that theres almost always at least 30+k viewers watching some form of Starcraft. That's pretty much 'at any random time during the day'. Probably more if you counted the people watching VoDs(that we can't get a number for). Do you people realize that many channels can't hit 300k viewers most nights? The very top shows for specific time slots rarely get over 700k-800k viewers. Many networks survive on mostly ~100k/viewers shows, with a few of their 'top' shows getting 200-300k. It isn't that far off from where SC2 peak viewer times sit and it is only growing. I just don't see a point to come in to this thread and go HAHA PPL DONT WATCH STARCRAFT!!
yeah, 30k peopel watching SC2. for free.
The problem isn't necessarily that they aren't paying for the stream, but that they (and I'm casting a wide net) aren't paying for anything. If people aren't going to pay for MLG's stream, they need to be paying for their merchandise. If people aren't buying merchandise, MLG, IPL, GSL, etc. should all partner with Twitch and Twitch can act as the cable service and sell one big package for access to everything. If those solutions aren't serviceable, we need another one.
30k viewers means nothing if nobody is putting money up. Sponsorship can only carry this so far.
I kind of have to have a pessimistic view of the future of monetization in eSports when people bitch about korean progamers running three ads after games... that's about half as many as TV in that timespan and it's a huge source of income for them, and yet people act like their inalienable right of watching NaDa queue for a ladder game has been violated.
In terms of the PPV argument, you have to provide a service that justifies the payment, as any service that is paid for works. What that is depends on how much you want them to pay, but at the end of the day if people don't want to buy something they don't want to buy it.
I'm sorry but i think most people here wouldn't consider most of those games esports at all. And the big name games there's little to no accomplishments.
124k $ for all that, dating back to 2008. We're discussing if SC2 has a future and even SC2 has a bunch of players with price money totals far exceeding that.
I have to say, in a few years I'd be willing to pay more for events. But as a college student who tries to play other games and still have some fun money to do stuff with, if prices were to increase much I'd have to cancel my subscription to most events. Right now I have a gold pass for MLG, and buy most GSL passes and thats all I can afford. Thats just me personally, and I think companies like MLG would have to look at if it would be worth it lose my $25 if it meant it got and extra $10-$15 from other people.
It makes no sense at this point to be charging a lot of money to watch Starcraft. That kind of system works when there is a much larger audience watching. Right now, eSports is still in a baby stage and growing. Charge money now before its more grown will just drive away a lot of the casual audience. Right now the goal should be to expand the knowledge of eSports to more people.
A few 1st/2nds in local LANs and a 4th place in 1 large tournament taking place the same weekend as MLG. I have more 1st/2nd in local LANs than all of vVv combined, apparently.
Would anybody be opposed to playing $2 for SD or $8 for HD for a tournament weekend? I think there would be a ton of people willing to pay $2 for an MLG weekend at 480p, even those claiming they would never buy a tournament PPV subscription. If you have 15,000 people paying $2 to watch your tournament, that adds $30k to your bottom line. For a large tournament like IEM/MLG/IPL, they should have no problem getting 15k subscribers at that price.
On February 10 2012 06:35 m4inbrain wrote: Just throwing it in there, 22k viewers for IEM right now.
What a base to go for it, ..
Even IF they all of them would pay 10 bucks (which i am absolutely sure they wont), it wouldnt be enough to sustain a sufficient and professional produced stream. By far.
SC2 is a dead horse when it comes to making cash, it was from the beginning. Why? Because its to niche, at least for now.
I don't believe this for the following reason. I go to watch my local football team play. They get average 4000 people watching every other week, with ticket prices ranging from £30 to £5 (standing), and some people pay less i bet for different reasons (like youth players etc.) When i consider the overheads for running a professional football team, and that of running a SC2 tournament, i think there is a lot of room to make money in proffesional E-sports.
(yes they have some money from higher leagues and tv money but it isn't that much)
On February 10 2012 05:42 gnatinator wrote: PPV is likely not the right business model for esports. Trying to fit a square peg into a round hole just reaks of corporate laziness.
The numbers for UFC are massively inflated due to its broadcast in gyms, bars, etc. These numbers do not directly translate into $20-$30 each.
Wouldn't that make the number DEFLATED since there would be more people watching in a gym/bar/etc. than if each sale was a single individual?
I'm pretty sure bars need to pay more to show the content OR the UFC has some kind of average viewer/bar thing that inflates numbers.
Commercial license is anywhere from 500 and on up depending how big the gathering is
yep, 500-1500 for most 'bars' etc. for open circuit broadcasts can get as high as 5k+.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Chill,
that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part.
So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault.
BULLSHIT!!!
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience.
I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about:
If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game.
If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content.
You call yourself a "consumer" and yet balk at paying any amount of money for the content you are receiving. This doesn't make you a "consumer" it makes you a parasite.
It's fairly obvious that you just don't want to give up your cushy situation where a vast amount of content is provided for free. I hate to break it to you, but the real world doesn't work that way. I know nothing of the finance behind these organizations and events, but if ad revenue isn't enough to keep the content flowing, they are more than justified in charging a reasonable amount to the consumer. A lot of people put in a lot of work into every tournament, and you want them to do it for free? That's just selfish.
That said, there are very few (read: GSL) events that I would (and do) pay a premium price for. If event organizers want to charge in the neighborhood of $20-$25 for premium passes, they better deliver on the production. None of this half-assed, technical difficulties, sound problems, long delays between games, etc. Right now, many tournaments still have those pitfalls and are absolutely not worth paying a premium price for HD content. They can continue to float on ad revenue and pittance prices ($5) for HD streams until they get their shit in gear.
your point might be valid if ad revenue didnt entirely support the biggest internet companies im pretty sure if there was a fee to use facebook, it wouldnt be anywhere near as successful as it is now. the same goes for google. its all very well to say that if you dont pay for streams your a 'parasite', but the truth is that the people who watch free streams are the people who enable so many tournaments to take place. unless your telling me that the number of people who pay subscriptions to IPL is enough to support the tournaments and show matches entirely, and that the sponsorship would still be worth the same amount with the lower view count. if you can get something better for free, why should you pay? if gsl had a better quality stream with more ads, id watch it, instead of just torrenting VODs when i hear about a good match, and watching them lag free whenever i want to. its great that you pay for GSL if thats what you want to do, but is sure as shit doesn't make you more supportive of SC2
On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote: [quote]
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it.
My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be.
The point is... you don't care about watching Starcraft? Some of us are spectators. I watch NFL/College football and Starcraft. Those are the two competitive things I enjoy watching. You might as well go to a thread about the popularity of baseball and just scream "I DONT CARE ABOUT BASEBALL!! BASEBALL IS JUST SOMETHING I PLAY SOMETIMES! I DONT WANT TO WATCH IT AND NEITHER DO MOST PEOPLE!". Because.. that is basically what you are saying. It isn't adding anything valuable to the conversation.
I don't think anybody can deny that theres almost always at least 30+k viewers watching some form of Starcraft. That's pretty much 'at any random time during the day'. Probably more if you counted the people watching VoDs(that we can't get a number for). Do you people realize that many channels can't hit 300k viewers most nights? The very top shows for specific time slots rarely get over 700k-800k viewers. Many networks survive on mostly ~100k/viewers shows, with a few of their 'top' shows getting 200-300k. It isn't that far off from where SC2 peak viewer times sit and it is only growing. I just don't see a point to come in to this thread and go HAHA PPL DONT WATCH STARCRAFT!!
yeah, 30k peopel watching SC2. for free.
Free how? They are paying for internet, right? I pay my cable company for TV channels that throw advertisements at me. Yeah, clearly 30k isn't enough. The point I was making is that SC2 isn't that far off. Many networks are running shows right now in the mid-afternoon that won't hit 100k viewers. They are still running ads and making enough money off of them. Yeah, clearly we need more viewers.. but its growing. To me, the path is clear... continue to grow the viewer base and the money will keep growing. I mean, we are further along now than we are last year. I'm not saying 30k demands anything... I am saying that it isn't as far off as what is required for SC2 to be shown as an 'obscure sport' like snowboarding, billiards, bowling, curling, womens basketball etc.
On February 10 2012 06:35 m4inbrain wrote: Just throwing it in there, 22k viewers for IEM right now.
What a base to go for it, ..
Even IF they all of them would pay 10 bucks (which i am absolutely sure they wont), it wouldnt be enough to sustain a sufficient and professional produced stream. By far.
SC2 is a dead horse when it comes to making cash, it was from the beginning. Why? Because its to niche, at least for now.
to be fair this IEM tournament is pretty bad, both production wise, and player pool
So? Which tournaments are not, apart from GSL? Dreamhack comes to mind, and maybe IGN. Talking production here. MLG? Hell no. IEM? As you said, no. HSC? Well, i actually think the quality there is pretty high, but that kind of tournament is a niche. Etc..
Again, we are talking premium-prices here. No one (at least not me) would bother to pay 5 bucks to watch a mediocre thing in HD. But if they start to charge like 25 bucks, they better bring out the big guns. Or boobs, but meh.
It is "okay" to charge for anything, even a handful of dirt.
The real question is whether people would want to buy the product and if that number ends up making more money than if they made their product freely available.
For example WWE raised their PPV prices to 50-60 dollars, just years ago it as 35$, this naturally meant that less people bought it, however they still make about as much money.
The problem with esports and especially SC2 is that we are overfed content on a daily basis, there is too much. This means that charging for it will not be a succesful bussiness practice.
Same reason why a match you can see for free on Monday Night Raw draws far less than a special match, say Rock vs Cena at WM28, which will likely surpass 1 million buys. Its why UFC is so successful, you only get to see your favorite fighter 2-3 times a year if you are lucky, this means that people dont get sick of watching GSP, Silva, or whomever they like.
eSports, and in this case SC2 is oversaturated, charging for it would be a bad decision, especially since the community percieves western tournaments as second rate, barely the quality to that of Code A.
The only esport content i would pay for is something like Evo, which is once a year, spectacle and a tribute to fighting games. There is nothing like that for SC2 at the moment, GSL dosent feel like Superbowl or Wrestlemania, it feels like a regular ass edition of Monday Night Raw, and every other tournament feels like TNA Impact. We just dont have that grand major event it seems for this game yet.
On February 10 2012 06:35 m4inbrain wrote: Just throwing it in there, 22k viewers for IEM right now.
What a base to go for it, ..
Even IF they all of them would pay 10 bucks (which i am absolutely sure they wont), it wouldnt be enough to sustain a sufficient and professional produced stream. By far.
SC2 is a dead horse when it comes to making cash, it was from the beginning. Why? Because its to niche, at least for now.
I don't believe this for the following reason. I go to watch my local football team play. They get average 4000 people watching every other week, with ticket prices ranging from £30 to £5 (standing), and some people pay less i bet for different reasons (like youth players etc.) When i consider the overheads for running a professional football team, and that of running a SC2 tournament, i think there is a lot of room to make money in proffesional E-sports.
(yes they have some money from higher leagues and tv money but it isn't that much)
So, how many of these 4000 viewers are not local? I am a soccerfan as well (although a pretty small club), and the stadium is filled like 75% of the time, with quite more than 4000 ppl. Almost all of them come from my city. I go there to root and cheer for my HOMETEAM. I dont have something like that here in eSports. I like team mouz. I want their games. So with your example, i would have to pay mouz to do that (not arguing if good or not - just saying). But in this case here i would not.
So its quite a stretch to compare a local team with a fanbase (and, lets just be honest here from fan to fan, most of them would pay even more, just to bash their heads in after the game), and a game where i have no "emotional" connection to.
On February 10 2012 06:35 m4inbrain wrote: Just throwing it in there, 22k viewers for IEM right now.
What a base to go for it, ..
Even IF they all of them would pay 10 bucks (which i am absolutely sure they wont), it wouldnt be enough to sustain a sufficient and professional produced stream. By far.
SC2 is a dead horse when it comes to making cash, it was from the beginning. Why? Because its to niche, at least for now.
I don't believe this for the following reason. I go to watch my local football team play. They get average 4000 people watching every other week, with ticket prices ranging from £30 to £5 (standing), and some people pay less i bet for different reasons (like youth players etc.) When i consider the overheads for running a professional football team, and that of running a SC2 tournament, i think there is a lot of room to make money in proffesional E-sports.
(yes they have some money from higher leagues and tv money but it isn't that much)
So, how many of these 4000 viewers are not local? I am a soccerfan as well (although a pretty small club), and the stadium is filled like 75% of the time, with quite more than 4000 ppl. Almost all of them come from my city. I go there to root and cheer for my HOMETEAM. I dont have something like that here in eSports. I like team mouz. I want their games. So with your example, i would have to pay mouz to do that (not arguing if good or not - just saying). But in this case here i would not.
So its quite a stretch to compare a local team with a fanbase (and, lets just be honest here from fan to fan, most of them would pay even more, just to bash their heads in after the game), and a game where i have no "emotional" connection to.
Yeah and local teams get local sponsors that benefit alot more from local advertisment compared to the worldwide ads we see on MLG.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Chill,
that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part.
So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault.
BULLSHIT!!!
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience.
I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about:
If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game.
If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content.
You call yourself a "consumer" and yet balk at paying any amount of money for the content you are receiving. This doesn't make you a "consumer" it makes you a parasite.
It's fairly obvious that you just don't want to give up your cushy situation where a vast amount of content is provided for free. I hate to break it to you, but the real world doesn't work that way. I know nothing of the finance behind these organizations and events, but if ad revenue isn't enough to keep the content flowing, they are more than justified in charging a reasonable amount to the consumer. A lot of people put in a lot of work into every tournament, and you want them to do it for free? That's just selfish.
That said, there are very few (read: GSL) events that I would (and do) pay a premium price for. If event organizers want to charge in the neighborhood of $20-$25 for premium passes, they better deliver on the production. None of this half-assed, technical difficulties, sound problems, long delays between games, etc. Right now, many tournaments still have those pitfalls and are absolutely not worth paying a premium price for HD content. They can continue to float on ad revenue and pittance prices ($5) for HD streams until they get their shit in gear.
your point might be valid if ad revenue didnt entirely support the biggest internet companies im pretty sure if there was a fee to use facebook, it wouldnt be anywhere near as successful as it is now. the same goes for google. its all very well to say that if you dont pay for streams your a 'parasite', but the truth is that the people who watch free streams are the people who enable so many tournaments to take place. unless your telling me that the number of people who pay subscriptions to IPL is enough to support the tournaments and show matches entirely, and that the sponsorship would still be worth the same amount with the lower view count. if you can get something better for free, why should you pay? if gsl had a better quality stream with more ads, id watch it, instead of just torrenting VODs when i hear about a good match, and watching them lag free whenever i want to. its great that you pay for GSL if thats what you want to do, but is sure as shit doesn't make you more supportive of SC2
I don't think everybody here is demanding people pay for streams that players want to broadcast for their own benefit. I am definitely not. I believe ad revenue, sponsorships and quality services like GOMTV are the way to go but nothing will happen unless we keep increasing numbers and watching. The people who watch the free streams are not parasites in any way imho. Increase viewership and things will continue to get bigger and bigger. I do firmly disagree with the actions you take of torrenting a VOD that you really want to see.
To say that paying for GSL doesn't make you more supportive of SC2 compared to downloading a torrent is just laughable... hard to imagine you honestly agree with that sentiment. That is seriously one of the most ridiculous statements I've read in the whole thread.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Chill,
that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part.
So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault.
BULLSHIT!!!
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience.
I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about:
If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game.
If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content.
I'm sorry but wtf? You say that someone creating content and wants to charge people for it are the ones to blame? Wanting to get paid for your work is asking for charity?
What do you do? You watch stuff for free and add nothing to the "esport" you watch beside maybe some commercial revenue. Where in the world do you get similar content for free, legally? The entitlement is just astounding, especially when you imply that esports dying would not be due to people being cheap.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Chill,
that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part.
So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault.
BULLSHIT!!!
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience.
I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about:
If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game.
If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content.
You call yourself a "consumer" and yet balk at paying any amount of money for the content you are receiving. This doesn't make you a "consumer" it makes you a parasite.
It's fairly obvious that you just don't want to give up your cushy situation where a vast amount of content is provided for free. I hate to break it to you, but the real world doesn't work that way. I know nothing of the finance behind these organizations and events, but if ad revenue isn't enough to keep the content flowing, they are more than justified in charging a reasonable amount to the consumer. A lot of people put in a lot of work into every tournament, and you want them to do it for free? That's just selfish.
That said, there are very few (read: GSL) events that I would (and do) pay a premium price for. If event organizers want to charge in the neighborhood of $20-$25 for premium passes, they better deliver on the production. None of this half-assed, technical difficulties, sound problems, long delays between games, etc. Right now, many tournaments still have those pitfalls and are absolutely not worth paying a premium price for HD content. They can continue to float on ad revenue and pittance prices ($5) for HD streams until they get their shit in gear.
What both of you fail to notice is the last paragraph of my post.
Are they justified to charge for their content? Maybe, maybe not. Who gives a fuck?
That I watch free content legally, but will stop watching if I had to pay for it, doesn't make me a parasite, an entitled spoiled brat, a non working kid who's sucking on someones tit, or whatever insults anyone might want to come up with towards their potential customers (and yes, viewing ads on a free stream = customer, so please don't even go down the "you don't pay so you're no customer path).
I just didn't like the term "Charity" and the associated finger pointing at me for being responsible for ESPORTS' potential death.
If a company (or a whole industry for that matter) goes bankrupt, then it is certainly not the fault of the customers who refused to buy their overpriced products. That some people claim, these customers should buy these products anyways out of moral obligation to the dying industry doesn't make the claim correct. Welcome to capitalism.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Chill,
that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part.
So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault.
BULLSHIT!!!
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience.
I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about:
If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game.
If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content.
I'm sorry but wtf? You say that someone creating content and wants to charge people for it are the ones to blame? Wanting to get paid for your work is asking for charity?
What do you do? You watch stuff for free and add nothing to the "esport" you watch beside maybe some commercial revenue. Where in the world do you get similar content for free, legally? The entitlement is just astounding, especially when you imply that esports dying would not be due to people being cheap.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Chill,
that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part.
So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault.
BULLSHIT!!!
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience.
I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about:
If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game.
If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content.
You call yourself a "consumer" and yet balk at paying any amount of money for the content you are receiving. This doesn't make you a "consumer" it makes you a parasite.
It's fairly obvious that you just don't want to give up your cushy situation where a vast amount of content is provided for free. I hate to break it to you, but the real world doesn't work that way. I know nothing of the finance behind these organizations and events, but if ad revenue isn't enough to keep the content flowing, they are more than justified in charging a reasonable amount to the consumer. A lot of people put in a lot of work into every tournament, and you want them to do it for free? That's just selfish.
That said, there are very few (read: GSL) events that I would (and do) pay a premium price for. If event organizers want to charge in the neighborhood of $20-$25 for premium passes, they better deliver on the production. None of this half-assed, technical difficulties, sound problems, long delays between games, etc. Right now, many tournaments still have those pitfalls and are absolutely not worth paying a premium price for HD content. They can continue to float on ad revenue and pittance prices ($5) for HD streams until they get their shit in gear.
What both of you fail to notice is the last paragraph of my post.
Are they justified to charge for their content? Maybe, maybe not. Who gives a fuck?
That I watch free content legally, but will stop watching if I had to pay for it, doesn't make me a parasite, an entitled spoiled brat, a non working kid who's sucking on someones tit, or whatever insults anyone might want to come up with towards their potential customers (and yes, viewing ads on a free stream = customer, so please don't even go down the "you don't pay so you're no customer path).
I just didn't like the term "Charity" and the associated finger pointing at me for being responsible for ESPORTS' potential death.
If a company (or a whole industry for that matter) goes bankrupt, then it is certainly not the fault of the customers who refused to buy their overpriced products. That some people claim, these customers should buy these products anyways out of moral obligation to the dying industry doesn't make the claim correct. Welcome to capitalism.
I'll spare you guys a Soviet Russia joke.
So you turned the argument around from "charity" to "donation" and it's all ok? Your argument is just as stupid as the one you dislike.
On February 10 2012 06:35 m4inbrain wrote: Just throwing it in there, 22k viewers for IEM right now.
What a base to go for it, ..
Even IF they all of them would pay 10 bucks (which i am absolutely sure they wont), it wouldnt be enough to sustain a sufficient and professional produced stream. By far.
SC2 is a dead horse when it comes to making cash, it was from the beginning. Why? Because its to niche, at least for now.
I don't believe this for the following reason. I go to watch my local football team play. They get average 4000 people watching every other week, with ticket prices ranging from £30 to £5 (standing), and some people pay less i bet for different reasons (like youth players etc.) When i consider the overheads for running a professional football team, and that of running a SC2 tournament, i think there is a lot of room to make money in proffesional E-sports.
(yes they have some money from higher leagues and tv money but it isn't that much)
So, how many of these 4000 viewers are not local? I am a soccerfan as well (although a pretty small club), and the stadium is filled like 75% of the time, with quite more than 4000 ppl. Almost all of them come from my city. I go there to root and cheer for my HOMETEAM. I dont have something like that here in eSports. I like team mouz. I want their games. So with your example, i would have to pay mouz to do that (not arguing if good or not - just saying). But in this case here i would not.
So its quite a stretch to compare a local team with a fanbase (and, lets just be honest here from fan to fan, most of them would pay even more, just to bash their heads in after the game), and a game where i have no "emotional" connection to.
In one way you are correct, but I think that for example people who follow GSL know that their favorate players and teams will be represented there. So, if there was a similar situation in international SC2 like for example with MLG then you could follow your favorate team or players there.
On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote: [quote]
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Haha, that is a pretty silly comment. Conversely, if players really loved e-sports then they would accept love as salaries and prize money, then the entire e-sports industry could run on love for e-sports!
Honestly maybe they should. People have all these delusions of grandeur of SC2 and E-sports being the next NFL or NBA when in reality SC2 is just a video game. People see HuK, IdrA, etc getting large figure contracts and think that is supposed to be the norm. Even in Korea, the MECHA OF ESPORTS, Starcraft is in reality just a small niche of entertainment. Like I said, it sounds harsh but if half the pros out there right now had to go back to school and get a real job to make money, I wouldn't shed a tear.
What's your point? I'm honestly struggling to find it.
My point is that SC2 is a hobby for most of us, not a necessity. If I have excess money to donate, it will be to a charity that benefits people in need, not a bunch of people who are disappointed because SC2 wasn't the cash cow they thought it would be.
The point is... you don't care about watching Starcraft? Some of us are spectators. I watch NFL/College football and Starcraft. Those are the two competitive things I enjoy watching. You might as well go to a thread about the popularity of baseball and just scream "I DONT CARE ABOUT BASEBALL!! BASEBALL IS JUST SOMETHING I PLAY SOMETIMES! I DONT WANT TO WATCH IT AND NEITHER DO MOST PEOPLE!". Because.. that is basically what you are saying. It isn't adding anything valuable to the conversation.
I don't think anybody can deny that theres almost always at least 30+k viewers watching some form of Starcraft. That's pretty much 'at any random time during the day'. Probably more if you counted the people watching VoDs(that we can't get a number for). Do you people realize that many channels can't hit 300k viewers most nights? The very top shows for specific time slots rarely get over 700k-800k viewers. Many networks survive on mostly ~100k/viewers shows, with a few of their 'top' shows getting 200-300k. It isn't that far off from where SC2 peak viewer times sit and it is only growing. I just don't see a point to come in to this thread and go HAHA PPL DONT WATCH STARCRAFT!!
yeah, 30k peopel watching SC2. for free.
Free how? They are paying for internet, right? I pay my cable company for TV channels that throw advertisements at me. Yeah, clearly 30k isn't enough. The point I was making is that SC2 isn't that far off. Many networks are running shows right now in the mid-afternoon that won't hit 100k viewers. They are still running ads and making enough money off of them. Yeah, clearly we need more viewers.. but its growing. To me, the path is clear... continue to grow the viewer base and the money will keep growing. I mean, we are further along now than we are last year. I'm not saying 30k demands anything... I am saying that it isn't as far off as what is required for SC2 to be shown as an 'obscure sport' like snowboarding, billiards, bowling, curling, womens basketball etc.
Need to be just a bit careful about the 100k viewers thing. Remember for most TV shows, you can tell what your demographic is pretty easily (American, middle-aged male with a pre-disposition for X, Y,Z, disposable income of about $$$). When looking at SC2, it's much harder to get an accurate demographic read. First of all, this is worldwide. You may be marketing to people who cannot even find information or locally buy your brand (Hot6ix comes to mind for the GSL right now), and where your expected return on investment even in intangibles is nil.
When you are looking at targeting a demographic, you are reaching a certain set of people with a certain profile. There isn't much geographically, culturally, or really anything that SC2 fans have in common. We have different values, different cultures, different backgrounds and exposure to different ideas and products. The demographic isn't nearly as uniform as most sponsors would probably like. We do see much support from the one thing we all probably have in common: Computer and electronic equipment. It is apparently the one thing that will resonate with all the viewers. To reach those stable demographic numbers, we need to be a targeted demographic of some type, but what is out profile? It certainly isn't from any one country or geographical area or culture, and these things have a large impact on advertising, expected return, and value for sponsors and advertisers.
A Venn Diagram of this thread would be amazing. The circles of "People who care enough about Starcraft 2 to read / post on Team Liquid" to "People who wouldn't pay to see Starcraft 2 content, even if that means it will inevitably go away" should really not intersect in the way that they are here.
Also telling, that anyone posting here who has any manner of credentials towards knowledge of the eSports industry, are all saying the same thing.
We are all entitled to precisely 0 content. Anything we get, we should be grateful for. If we want to continue to get it, and if you believe (like me) that eSports and SC2 has the potential to be a superior form of entertainment, vote with your dollars.
Lets look at NASL, sure its only a TL poll but its something 600 people bought the first season of NASL 600*20=12000$, barely cover half of just the sc2 prizepool then they only had 200 people willing to buy a season 2 ticket 200*20=4000$, now youre not evening a fifth of what the SC2 prizepool is for IEM
Now if you put an IEM, MLG, IPL, GSL? all in the same month 20+20+20+20 thats 80$ id be spending PER month on starcraft so lets say all those 600 people bought a ticket for each league this month 80*600=48000$ that all leagues have earned total...and 48k aint shit, 12k a league doesnt cover anything
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Chill,
that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part.
So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault.
BULLSHIT!!!
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience.
I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about:
If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game.
If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content.
I'm sorry but wtf? You say that someone creating content and wants to charge people for it are the ones to blame? Wanting to get paid for your work is asking for charity?
What do you do? You watch stuff for free and add nothing to the "esport" you watch beside maybe some commercial revenue. Where in the world do you get similar content for free, legally? The entitlement is just astounding, especially when you imply that esports dying would not be due to people being cheap.
On February 10 2012 06:30 ZasZ. wrote:
On February 10 2012 06:14 SACtheXchng wrote:
On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:
On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:
On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:
On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote:
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Chill,
that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part.
So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault.
BULLSHIT!!!
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience.
I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about:
If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game.
If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content.
You call yourself a "consumer" and yet balk at paying any amount of money for the content you are receiving. This doesn't make you a "consumer" it makes you a parasite.
It's fairly obvious that you just don't want to give up your cushy situation where a vast amount of content is provided for free. I hate to break it to you, but the real world doesn't work that way. I know nothing of the finance behind these organizations and events, but if ad revenue isn't enough to keep the content flowing, they are more than justified in charging a reasonable amount to the consumer. A lot of people put in a lot of work into every tournament, and you want them to do it for free? That's just selfish.
That said, there are very few (read: GSL) events that I would (and do) pay a premium price for. If event organizers want to charge in the neighborhood of $20-$25 for premium passes, they better deliver on the production. None of this half-assed, technical difficulties, sound problems, long delays between games, etc. Right now, many tournaments still have those pitfalls and are absolutely not worth paying a premium price for HD content. They can continue to float on ad revenue and pittance prices ($5) for HD streams until they get their shit in gear.
What both of you fail to notice is the last paragraph of my post.
Are they justified to charge for their content? Maybe, maybe not. Who gives a fuck?
That I watch free content legally, but will stop watching if I had to pay for it, doesn't make me a parasite, an entitled spoiled brat, a non working kid who's sucking on someones tit, or whatever insults anyone might want to come up with towards their potential customers (and yes, viewing ads on a free stream = customer, so please don't even go down the "you don't pay so you're no customer path).
I just didn't like the term "Charity" and the associated finger pointing at me for being responsible for ESPORTS' potential death.
If a company (or a whole industry for that matter) goes bankrupt, then it is certainly not the fault of the customers who refused to buy their overpriced products. That some people claim, these customers should buy these products anyways out of moral obligation to the dying industry doesn't make the claim correct. Welcome to capitalism.
I'll spare you guys a Soviet Russia joke.
So you turned the argument around from "charity" to "donation" and it's all ok? Your argument is just as stupid as the one you dislike.
Well, but he has a point. Its not the customers fault if streams would be massively overpriced (25$ and higher). "I charge 1000 dollars per match, come and watch!" two days later: "damn im bankrupt, you damned parasites, fuck off". Vastly exaggerated, ofc, but you will know what i mean and i guess thats his point.
A few 1st/2nds in local LANs and a 4th place in 1 large tournament taking place the same weekend as MLG. I have more 1st/2nd in local LANs than all of vVv combined, apparently..
Come on now. . . lol. . .
We are the most accomplished console organization in the world with top 4 finishes on 4 continents. . . You can not like us, but be fair about it. WCG, MLG, XL, these are not "local lans" lol. (Unless you are ferring only to SC2).
The point is we DO have something to show for our efforts. Again, you can hate all you want, but be fair. Our SC division was never built to be like EGs. So, yes, in SC2 we are nowhere near any of the traditional eSports orgs. but at least give credit where credit is due.
There is a reason why CEO of MLG has been on our podcast show 6 times, as well David Ting and JediRobb from IPL, and Craig Levine from ESEA. Again, to say we have nothing to show and therefore we are irrelevant is both incorrect, and simply far off point.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Chill,
that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part.
So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault.
BULLSHIT!!!
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience.
I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about:
If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game.
If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content.
I'm sorry but wtf? You say that someone creating content and wants to charge people for it are the ones to blame? Wanting to get paid for your work is asking for charity?
What do you do? You watch stuff for free and add nothing to the "esport" you watch beside maybe some commercial revenue. Where in the world do you get similar content for free, legally? The entitlement is just astounding, especially when you imply that esports dying would not be due to people being cheap.
On February 10 2012 06:30 ZasZ. wrote:
On February 10 2012 06:14 SACtheXchng wrote:
On February 10 2012 03:53 Chill wrote:
On February 10 2012 03:48 SupLilSon wrote:
On February 10 2012 03:32 KingOfAmerica wrote:
On February 10 2012 03:21 1sz2sz3sz wrote:
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Chill,
that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part.
So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault.
BULLSHIT!!!
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience.
I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about:
If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game.
If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content.
You call yourself a "consumer" and yet balk at paying any amount of money for the content you are receiving. This doesn't make you a "consumer" it makes you a parasite.
It's fairly obvious that you just don't want to give up your cushy situation where a vast amount of content is provided for free. I hate to break it to you, but the real world doesn't work that way. I know nothing of the finance behind these organizations and events, but if ad revenue isn't enough to keep the content flowing, they are more than justified in charging a reasonable amount to the consumer. A lot of people put in a lot of work into every tournament, and you want them to do it for free? That's just selfish.
That said, there are very few (read: GSL) events that I would (and do) pay a premium price for. If event organizers want to charge in the neighborhood of $20-$25 for premium passes, they better deliver on the production. None of this half-assed, technical difficulties, sound problems, long delays between games, etc. Right now, many tournaments still have those pitfalls and are absolutely not worth paying a premium price for HD content. They can continue to float on ad revenue and pittance prices ($5) for HD streams until they get their shit in gear.
What both of you fail to notice is the last paragraph of my post.
Are they justified to charge for their content? Maybe, maybe not. Who gives a fuck?
That I watch free content legally, but will stop watching if I had to pay for it, doesn't make me a parasite, an entitled spoiled brat, a non working kid who's sucking on someones tit, or whatever insults anyone might want to come up with towards their potential customers (and yes, viewing ads on a free stream = customer, so please don't even go down the "you don't pay so you're no customer path).
I just didn't like the term "Charity" and the associated finger pointing at me for being responsible for ESPORTS' potential death.
If a company (or a whole industry for that matter) goes bankrupt, then it is certainly not the fault of the customers who refused to buy their overpriced products. That some people claim, these customers should buy these products anyways out of moral obligation to the dying industry doesn't make the claim correct. Welcome to capitalism.
I'll spare you guys a Soviet Russia joke.
So you turned the argument around from "charity" to "donation" and it's all ok? Your argument is just as stupid as the one you dislike.
I never asked for a charity, or a donation to be sent my way.
If a company has a free stream and asks $10 for premium quality or content, we think "well I guess if I don't support this company I'm killing ESPORTS"
If a company has no free stream and asks $5 for providing it, we think "you need to do better than this to get my 5 bucks"
On February 10 2012 07:00 dementrio wrote: If a company has a free stream and asks $10 for premium quality or content, we think "well I guess if I don't support this company I'm killing ESPORTS"
If a company has no free stream and asks $5 for providing it, we think "you need to do better than this to get my 5 bucks"
This is what chill meant by "charity" I think.
That's exactly what I meant. You should think the content is worth some value so you are willing to pay at most that. You should not give them your money anyways to artificially support an industry that you don't think is worth it. An industry can't survive on people supporting it just to keep it alive. That will work for a few years, tops, but eventually people will get tired of supporting something that isn't giving them that value back.
It's too bad that monetizing barcrafts isn't easy. They're growing exponentially, people spend money at them which reflects that people dont feel uncomfortable with parting with their money for that type of social + esports experience.
You could charge a licensing fee in return for official licenses/shoutouts/swag if they're planned well enough in advance or something. It wouldnt solve all of the funding problems, but it's potentially mutually beneficial-- organizers get to be 'Official MLG Partner' events or whatever, and they pay a fee which they can recouped in the event itself.
EDIT: It's definitely a potential admin nightmare, but I think it could be conceptualized in a way that would mitigate excess organizational costs.
EDIT2: Hell you could have a 'barcraft pass' option as a funding package with a set of benefits and perks etc for organizers.
On February 10 2012 03:18 Klipsys wrote: I find it hysterical how many people are quick to claim eSports is their passion/hobby or whatever, but balk at the idea of *GASP* Spending money on it!?
I spent money on it, I paid for my copy of Starcraft 2.
Im not paying to watch other people play it, just like how I dont give my money to the NBA to watch their players play basketball
Except you do pay money for that. The cable / satellite provider pays hundreds of millions to the NBA for the right to broadcast their games, and that cost is passed on to you as part of your monthly subscription.
If these organizations really loved E-sports then they wouldn't be so hung up on the money.
This stupid comment is the crux of the problem. "Spend your money to give me free content or don't bother." Ridiculous. It's ESPORTS, not C(harity)SPORTS
Chill,
that's the second time you're using the term "Charity", and it's the second time I'm feeling offended by it. It's insulting to the community of content consumers of which I am a part.
So here we go again: Yes, I (and many others) consume free SC2 content. No, we're not asking for charity in this thread. Au contraire. This thread exists because content producers are asking the community (i.e. us) for charity. They are asking us to pay $X for content that's worth $Y (where Y<X), ore else "ZOMG ESPORTS will die". We are the ones who get fingers pointed at us, that if we don't DONATE (yes, that's what it is) we are spoiled brats, and if ESPORTS dies, then it's our fault.
BULLSHIT!!!
If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of incompetent companies who tried jumping on a bandwaggon, seeing big bucks. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of these companies not earning these big bucks and hence asking for donations from the fans now. If ESPORTS dies, it's the fault of "Pro" gamers who throw games out of (in)convenience.
I could probably name a few more if I could be bothered, but one thing I am absolutely sure about:
If ESPORTS dies, it's NOT the fault of consumers who are unwilling to pay to watch people play a video game.
If leagues want to charge fees PPV style, I'm the last one to tell them not to. I know however that the day the last freely viewable tournament will begin charging, will be the last day of me consuming SC2 content.
You call yourself a "consumer" and yet balk at paying any amount of money for the content you are receiving. This doesn't make you a "consumer" it makes you a parasite.
It's fairly obvious that you just don't want to give up your cushy situation where a vast amount of content is provided for free. I hate to break it to you, but the real world doesn't work that way. I know nothing of the finance behind these organizations and events, but if ad revenue isn't enough to keep the content flowing, they are more than justified in charging a reasonable amount to the consumer. A lot of people put in a lot of work into every tournament, and you want them to do it for free? That's just selfish.
That said, there are very few (read: GSL) events that I would (and do) pay a premium price for. If event organizers want to charge in the neighborhood of $20-$25 for premium passes, they better deliver on the production. None of this half-assed, technical difficulties, sound problems, long delays between games, etc. Right now, many tournaments still have those pitfalls and are absolutely not worth paying a premium price for HD content. They can continue to float on ad revenue and pittance prices ($5) for HD streams until they get their shit in gear.
your point might be valid if ad revenue didnt entirely support the biggest internet companies im pretty sure if there was a fee to use facebook, it wouldnt be anywhere near as successful as it is now. the same goes for google. its all very well to say that if you dont pay for streams your a 'parasite', but the truth is that the people who watch free streams are the people who enable so many tournaments to take place. unless your telling me that the number of people who pay subscriptions to IPL is enough to support the tournaments and show matches entirely, and that the sponsorship would still be worth the same amount with the lower view count. if you can get something better for free, why should you pay? if gsl had a better quality stream with more ads, id watch it, instead of just torrenting VODs when i hear about a good match, and watching them lag free whenever i want to. its great that you pay for GSL if thats what you want to do, but is sure as shit doesn't make you more supportive of SC2
If Facebook had charged a fee when the service first started up, I agree with you that it would have collapsed rather quickly. Exactly how mid-tier tournaments like IEM (as an example) would if they started trying to charge premium prices for an unproven product. GSL has established itself as the place with the best games, the best production, and (arguably) the best casting talent. There's a reason a lot of people pay for GSL passes, when it's more than every other tournament.
However, if Facebook were to charge a (non-outrageous) fee now, I bet you they would make a fortune. So many people are hooked on the damn thing that it would lose some of the casual users (like myself) but the Facebookers would keep doing their thing.
Nowhere am I saying that individual players should be charging for their streams. If that's the vibe you're getting, that's just silly. They make pretty decent money from ad revenue alone assuming they are any good and interact with their audience. The player is putting little to no extra effort into providing a "product" to you, they are just letting you watch them practice like they would anyways. Charging for this would be asinine.
But when tournaments spend a lot of money on production quality and prize pools, they should expect the people benefitting from that content to help contribute, especially when ad revenue isn't enough to cover it. Some people don't mind paying $5 for an HD stream (I never do), and the rest watch live for free in lower quality. But I'm not advocating paying premium prices for non-premium content, which I consider to be everything but the GSL right now.
The fact that you torrent GSL VODs does make you a parasite. Sorry to break it to you. And by definition, actually paying for them does make me more supportive of SC2 than you are, whether you like it or not, because I'm right there with you watching the free streams and getting the mid-tier tournaments ad revenue. Not sure how you think you can justify that.
If you don't think it's worth the money, don't pay for it. That's your prerogative. But don't steal the content and then claim you're supporting SC2 as much as everybody else.
A few 1st/2nds in local LANs and a 4th place in 1 large tournament taking place the same weekend as MLG. I have more 1st/2nd in local LANs than all of vVv combined, apparently..
Come on now. . . lol. . .
We are the most accomplished console organization in the world with top 4 finishes on 4 continents. . . You can not like us, but be fair about it. WCG, MLG, XL, these are not "local lans" lol. (Unless you are ferring only to SC2).
The point is we DO have something to show for our efforts. Again, you can hate all you want, but be fair. Our SC division was never built to be like EGs. So, yes, in SC2 we are nowhere near any of the traditional eSports orgs. but at least give credit where credit is due.
There is a reason why CEO of MLG has been on our podcast show 6 times, as well David Ting and JediRobb from IPL, and Craig Levine from ESEA. Again, to say we have nothing to show and therefore we are irrelevant is both incorrect, and simply far off point.
I'm not hating, I am actually good friends with a few vVv members. But when people say you have a lack of results in SC2, they are correct. I was referring to only SC2 by the way.
Competitive Starcraft conossieurs are a generally smarter demographic than those who pay to view WWE, at least technologically. A lot of us would be happy with simply viewing the vods, this is why I don't really think the PPV business model would work for Starcraft, or even e-sports as a whole.
A few 1st/2nds in local LANs and a 4th place in 1 large tournament taking place the same weekend as MLG. I have more 1st/2nd in local LANs than all of vVv combined, apparently..
Come on now. . . lol. . .
We are the most accomplished console organization in the world with top 4 finishes on 4 continents. . . You can not like us, but be fair about it. WCG, MLG, XL, these are not "local lans" lol. (Unless you are ferring only to SC2).
The point is we DO have something to show for our efforts. Again, you can hate all you want, but be fair. Our SC division was never built to be like EGs. So, yes, in SC2 we are nowhere near any of the traditional eSports orgs. but at least give credit where credit is due.
There is a reason why CEO of MLG has been on our podcast show 6 times, as well David Ting and JediRobb from IPL, and Craig Levine from ESEA. Again, to say we have nothing to show and therefore we are irrelevant is both incorrect, and simply far off point.
I'm not hating, I am actually good friends with a few vVv members. But when people say you have a lack of results in SC2, they are correct. I was referring to only SC2 by the way.
OK, a lack of results in SC2 is far away from "nothing to show for it."
On February 10 2012 07:00 dementrio wrote: If a company has a free stream and asks $10 for premium quality or content, we think "well I guess if I don't support this company I'm killing ESPORTS"
If a company has no free stream and asks $5 for providing it, we think "you need to do better than this to get my 5 bucks"
This is what chill meant by "charity" I think.
Instead, I don't think that way. If my money supports a company it does so because I (the owner of my money) decide to give it to said company. I do that because the quality of the product convinced me to do so.
If I give my money to a company for the SOLE reason to support them, without being convinced by the quality of their stuff, then that's charity in my book.
I never asked for free streams. ESPORTS apparrently is asking me to pay for their content to save its ass and not because the content is worth it.
On February 10 2012 07:00 dementrio wrote: If a company has a free stream and asks $10 for premium quality or content, we think "well I guess if I don't support this company I'm killing ESPORTS"
If a company has no free stream and asks $5 for providing it, we think "you need to do better than this to get my 5 bucks"
This is what chill meant by "charity" I think.
That's exactly what I meant. You should think the content is worth some value so you are willing to pay at most that. You should not give them your money anyways to artificially support an industry that you don't think is worth it. An industry can't survive on people supporting it just to keep it alive. That will work for a few years, tops, but eventually people will get tired of supporting something that isn't giving them that value back.
OK, I'm confused now. You're basically saying what I'm saying. Did I misunderstand something?
I would probably pay if the foreigner players were as good as the koreans and only there was like one or two world leagues at most to watch.. as it is right now there are way too many tournaments and none of them get the absolutely top players.. GSL comes the closest to it, but it's at a shitty time and though I enjoy watching koreans play, I really don't care too much about the players themselves.
On February 10 2012 06:56 KingOfAmerica wrote: A Venn Diagram of this thread would be amazing. The circles of "People who care enough about Starcraft 2 to read / post on Team Liquid" to "People who wouldn't pay to see Starcraft 2 content, even if that means it will inevitably go away" should really not intersect in the way that they are here.
Also telling, that anyone posting here who has any manner of credentials towards knowledge of the eSports industry, are all saying the same thing.
We are all entitled to precisely 0 content. Anything we get, we should be grateful for. If we want to continue to get it, and if you believe (like me) that eSports and SC2 has the potential to be a superior form of entertainment, vote with your dollars.
yeah, good point. o wait, my bad, its not at all. the amount of people who stream for free is huge already, and the only reason that the majority have so few viewers is because better players also stream for free. its not just bad players, there are pretty good people who play SC2 well enough to be enjoyable to watch, even if they aren't good enough to win major tournaments. if you charged only for tournaments, then people who streamed during tournament hours would just see less of a drop in viewers. if high level players charged for streams, people who were worse would probably just see a jump in viewer numbers. i guess it would be possible for twitch to make you pay x amount to watch their SC2 streams, but since there are a million ways to watch stuff online, all that would do is mean people stopped using twitch. also, since 99% of TL has nothing to do with stream pricing, your snide little venn diagram remark is stupid
On February 10 2012 07:00 dementrio wrote: If a company has a free stream and asks $10 for premium quality or content, we think "well I guess if I don't support this company I'm killing ESPORTS"
If a company has no free stream and asks $5 for providing it, we think "you need to do better than this to get my 5 bucks"
This is what chill meant by "charity" I think.
Instead, I don't think that way. If my money supports a company it does so because I (the owner of my money) decide to give it to said company. I do that because the quality of the product convinced me to do so.
If I give my money to a company for the SOLE reason to support them, without being convinced by the quality of their stuff, then that's charity in my book.
I never asked for free streams. ESPORTS apparrently is asking me to pay for their content to save its ass and not because the content is worth it.
That's asking for Donations.
No, SC2 tournaments are asking you to pay for their content because they think it is worth it. Some portions of the community think that you should pay just to support it. (Note: I disagree heavily, you should never pay for something you don't think you get value for). Sometimes, the tournaments are mistaken in thinking their quality product commands the price they charge. Not everyone produces good product when they release stuff, and it's not always priced properly, but this is nothing new for anyone in any type of start-up or doing any type of product development. Try to break into a new business line? Yeah your first try is going to be garbage, but you try to price it accordingly and target your niche market appropriately. Microsoft may be the king of this, and to date they've make it work exactly once I think (Xbox) vs. the number of consumer product lines they've tried.
Now that I've thoughtt about it some more, I don't think SC2 is really ready for a serious monetization conversation yet. There is not enough there to be turned into money right now. Either sponsorships need to attempt to continue to grow and treat it as a long-term loss leader, or else the scene needs to shrink, and fast, so the niche fans who are willing to pay will do so, and have their money concentrated so the small ecosystem that can be supported.
If it is treated as a long term loss leader, it still needs to grow exponentially before it'll be worthwhile. It hasn't hit the critical mass of viewers yet to be ad supported or the right demographic to use a paid-gate model of some type. Sponsorships will have to do if the scene wants to still grow. If not, shrink, consolidate your proven base, and run with the small, known market (with likely only one tournament.)
On February 10 2012 07:00 dementrio wrote: If a company has a free stream and asks $10 for premium quality or content, we think "well I guess if I don't support this company I'm killing ESPORTS"
If a company has no free stream and asks $5 for providing it, we think "you need to do better than this to get my 5 bucks"
This is what chill meant by "charity" I think.
Instead, I don't think that way. If my money supports a company it does so because I (the owner of my money) decide to give it to said company. I do that because the quality of the product convinced me to do so.
If I give my money to a company for the SOLE reason to support them, without being convinced by the quality of their stuff, then that's charity in my book.
I never asked for free streams. ESPORTS apparrently is asking me to pay for their content to save its ass and not because the content is worth it.
On February 10 2012 07:00 dementrio wrote: If a company has a free stream and asks $10 for premium quality or content, we think "well I guess if I don't support this company I'm killing ESPORTS"
If a company has no free stream and asks $5 for providing it, we think "you need to do better than this to get my 5 bucks"
This is what chill meant by "charity" I think.
That's exactly what I meant. You should think the content is worth some value so you are willing to pay at most that. You should not give them your money anyways to artificially support an industry that you don't think is worth it. An industry can't survive on people supporting it just to keep it alive. That will work for a few years, tops, but eventually people will get tired of supporting something that isn't giving them that value back.
OK, I'm confused now. You're basically saying what I'm saying. Did I misunderstand something?
Not a native speaker.
I think Chill was talking about the people who want to continue watching high-quality SC2 content (i.e. the GSL) for free when the content really does justify some sort of cost.
Essentially the people wanting something for nothing. You are obviously wanting something for something. There's a difference.
If it is truly Jerith's position that people should be funneling money into eSports so that it doesn't collapse, that's a retarded position. If tournaments want to charge premium prices, they need to provide premium content. The vast majority of them don't.
A few 1st/2nds in local LANs and a 4th place in 1 large tournament taking place the same weekend as MLG. I have more 1st/2nd in local LANs than all of vVv combined, apparently..
Come on now. . . lol. . .
We are the most accomplished console organization in the world with top 4 finishes on 4 continents. . . You can not like us, but be fair about it. WCG, MLG, XL, these are not "local lans" lol. (Unless you are ferring only to SC2).
The point is we DO have something to show for our efforts. Again, you can hate all you want, but be fair. Our SC division was never built to be like EGs. So, yes, in SC2 we are nowhere near any of the traditional eSports orgs. but at least give credit where credit is due.
There is a reason why CEO of MLG has been on our podcast show 6 times, as well David Ting and JediRobb from IPL, and Craig Levine from ESEA. Again, to say we have nothing to show and therefore we are irrelevant is both incorrect, and simply far off point.
I'm not hating, I am actually good friends with a few vVv members. But when people say you have a lack of results in SC2, they are correct. I was referring to only SC2 by the way.
OK, a lack of results in SC2 is far away from "nothing to show for it."
They have an underlying point though..
$124,000 over 4 years for ALL players in ALL games is nothing to be proud about if your goal is to have a successful, respectable profession. That's $31,000/yr for all players in your organization. That's less than what 1 college graduate could reasonable expect to ear straight out of college. While I'm not doubting your teams success, the fact that we can gloat that an entire organization won 124k over 4 years is telling in itself as to where esports truly is on a global market.
I have paid for the GSL season ticket for these reasons, because the quality of the games are so much more impressive than any other tournament out there, and the general setup of the whole tournament I enjoy. I do like weekend events like MLG, but I prefer the fact that I can pay X amount of money for GSL, and get _quality_ games that span a longer period of time. For me it would be great to be a spectator at an MLG event, but as someone watching from home I find events held over a longer stretch more enjoyable and easier to watch than one where I have to sit down and watch over a weekend. GSL has become the benchmark against which I now compare other tournaments, and they all come up lacking imo in certain areas against it. Sure they might have some good production, or a large live crowd to add excitement, but for me if they suddenly charged for a stream I would just look at what I am getting compared to GSL and just end up not paying. The rant is funny to listen to though, as if sitting there and just saying, CHARGE FOR STREAMS will cause money to roll in, and to think that charging wont cause a loss of viewers is naive. Yes there has to be a way for people to make money, but there is a reason people aren't charging for streams right now, and it aint because people didn't think of it as an option.
On February 10 2012 07:04 caradoc wrote: It's too bad that monetizing barcrafts isn't easy. They're growing exponentially, people spend money at them which reflects that people dont feel uncomfortable with parting with their money for that type of social + esports experience.
You could charge a licensing fee in return for official licenses/shoutouts/swag if they're planned well enough in advance or something. It wouldnt solve all of the funding problems, but it's potentially mutually beneficial-- organizers get to be 'Official MLG Partner' events or whatever, and they pay a fee which they can recouped in the event itself.
EDIT: It's definitely a potential admin nightmare, but I think it could be conceptualized in a way that would mitigate excess organizational costs.
EDIT2: Hell you could have a 'barcraft pass' option as a funding package with a set of benefits and perks etc for organizers.
Dude, that gives ME an idea. Since BarCrafts exist, shouldn't the organizers of big big tournaments be able to convince the people at big big breweries to sponsor the tournaments?
"There's going to be x thousand people watching this event while literally sitting in bars, for y-z amount of money you can sponsor our event and we'll show your logo/play commercials during the event, which lasts a hours/days"
[If it is truly Jerith's position that people should be funneling money into eSports so that it doesn't collapse, that's a retarded position. If tournaments want to charge premium prices, they need to provide premium content. The vast majority of them don't.
That is obviously, or it should be obvious, NOT my position.
My position is that MLG should charge for it's streamed SC2 Winter Arena. I suggest a PPV model. Just one suggestion. I believe that if the community will not support this, MLG should realize that true professional eSports is an illusion and not ready to be a monetized business and call it a day.
If you don't believe that watching the top players in SC play on a quality, professional stream, then don't buy it. It's time to find out if there is a viable consumer base such that we take the next step to true, professional eSports, or if it is all just an illusion, hope and dreams.
On February 10 2012 07:00 dementrio wrote: If a company has a free stream and asks $10 for premium quality or content, we think "well I guess if I don't support this company I'm killing ESPORTS"
If a company has no free stream and asks $5 for providing it, we think "you need to do better than this to get my 5 bucks"
This is what chill meant by "charity" I think.
Instead, I don't think that way. If my money supports a company it does so because I (the owner of my money) decide to give it to said company. I do that because the quality of the product convinced me to do so.
If I give my money to a company for the SOLE reason to support them, without being convinced by the quality of their stuff, then that's charity in my book.
I never asked for free streams. ESPORTS apparrently is asking me to pay for their content to save its ass and not because the content is worth it.
That's asking for Donations.
EDIT:
On February 10 2012 07:03 Chill wrote:
On February 10 2012 07:00 dementrio wrote: If a company has a free stream and asks $10 for premium quality or content, we think "well I guess if I don't support this company I'm killing ESPORTS"
If a company has no free stream and asks $5 for providing it, we think "you need to do better than this to get my 5 bucks"
This is what chill meant by "charity" I think.
That's exactly what I meant. You should think the content is worth some value so you are willing to pay at most that. You should not give them your money anyways to artificially support an industry that you don't think is worth it. An industry can't survive on people supporting it just to keep it alive. That will work for a few years, tops, but eventually people will get tired of supporting something that isn't giving them that value back.
OK, I'm confused now. You're basically saying what I'm saying. Did I misunderstand something?
Not a native speaker.
I think Chill was talking about the people who want to continue watching high-quality SC2 content (i.e. the GSL) for free when the content really does justify some sort of cost.
Essentially the people wanting something for nothing. You are obviously wanting something for something. There's a difference.
If it is truly Jerith's position that people should be funneling money into eSports so that it doesn't collapse, that's a retarded position. If tournaments want to charge premium prices, they need to provide premium content. The vast majority of them don't.
It was actually the opposite - people shouldn't give money to companies unless they think their products are worth it. Don't use your money to support esports or else you've created a bubble.
On February 10 2012 04:39 Liquid`NonY wrote:I'll be damned if most esports fans don't have $30/month to spend for the many hours of entertainment they get from esports. They just feel entitled (not entirely their fault) and they feel some irrational hatred for anyone who is trying to turn a profit, pay their employees and guarantee that the content that everyone loves continues to be produced.
I don't have $30/month to spend on Starcraft! I bought that GSL lite ticket, but that's all I can justify spending. All my other spending is for Netflix streaming and for things like cheap sporting events, bars, and dating. My 'entertainment' budget is super tight as a college student and I can't blow everything on Starcraft. I could cut out the GSL ticket, but why? It's like skipping the major leagues and paying for the minors.
lol.
your argument is nullified with the bold. you could just say you are not a fan of esports and thus other priorities take precedence for your entertainment (i.e. overpriced alcohol in bars > $30/mo for esports)
[If it is truly Jerith's position that people should be funneling money into eSports so that it doesn't collapse, that's a retarded position. If tournaments want to charge premium prices, they need to provide premium content. The vast majority of them don't.
That is obviously, or it should be obvious, NOT my position.
My position is that MLG should charge for it's streamed SC2 Winter Arena. I suggest a PPV model. Just one suggestion. I believe that if the community will not support this, MLG should realize that true professional eSports is an illusion and not ready to be a monetized business and call it a day.
If you don't believe that watching the top players in SC play on a quality, professional stream, then don't buy it. It's time to find out if there is a viable consumer base such that we take the next step to true, professional eSports, or if it is all just an illusion, hope and dreams.
But why the insistence on PPV as opposed to commercially supported streams?
On February 10 2012 07:04 caradoc wrote: It's too bad that monetizing barcrafts isn't easy. They're growing exponentially, people spend money at them which reflects that people dont feel uncomfortable with parting with their money for that type of social + esports experience.
You could charge a licensing fee in return for official licenses/shoutouts/swag if they're planned well enough in advance or something. It wouldnt solve all of the funding problems, but it's potentially mutually beneficial-- organizers get to be 'Official MLG Partner' events or whatever, and they pay a fee which they can recouped in the event itself.
EDIT: It's definitely a potential admin nightmare, but I think it could be conceptualized in a way that would mitigate excess organizational costs.
EDIT2: Hell you could have a 'barcraft pass' option as a funding package with a set of benefits and perks etc for organizers.
Dude, that gives ME an idea. Since BarCrafts exist, shouldn't the organizers of big big tournaments be able to convince the people at big big breweries to sponsor the tournaments?
"There's going to be x thousand people watching this event while literally sitting in bars, for y-z amount of money you can sponsor our event and we'll show your logo/play commercials during the event, which lasts a hours/days"
Yeah, stuff like that-- these avenues need to get explored. I think if you look at what people actually pay for an evening or even weekend for drinks/socializing/watching sc at a barcraft, it's probably going to be right at the top of the curve for amount spent per person per amount of content produced. People will drop 50$ for an evening at a barcraft without thinking twice, whereas you get people whining about spending 150 for a year of GSL. Sure they're getting food and drinks too, but it's still essentially money spent to watch sc with friends. It represents a lot of untapped potential. How to actually tap into that is the question. The money is there, and the willingness to spend it is there.
Nobody has looked at demographics though-- we don't know how many people attend barcrafts worldwide.
There is no way I would pay PPV especially when there's so many tournaments. Either some go PPV and I stop watching them since there's free once, or they all go PPV and I quit watching all-together. One thing is sure and that is the scene will shrink heavily and ad&sponsor money will be worth much less and therefore smaller companies wont be able to establish since they cant just slam a PPV worthy tournament right from the get-go. Not to mention streamer wont be able to make as much money either.
I'd much rather see many smaller tournaments with a big scene rather than a few big PPV tournaments and a tiny scene divided into the tournaments they like, were I have to pay to watch. Even with the PPV model I just cant pay 20 bucks a month for EACH tournament! The competition will be fierce since you pretty much have to fight for the viewers money and its likely many companies will just fall. In the end there may just be like 3 major tournaments and so much less content. And by then the scene will most likely just be a fraction of what it once was, sure those big companies will make big money but esports will be just dead for hundreds of thousands of people. Its destructive, not for the companies of esports but for the fans.
MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
On February 10 2012 07:34 MHT wrote: There is no way I would pay PPV especially when there's so many tournaments. Either some go PPV and I stop watching them since there's free once, or they all go PPV and I quit watching all-together. One thing is sure and that is the scene will shrink heavily and ad&sponsor money will be worth much less and therefore smaller companies wont be able to establish since they cant just slam a PPV worthy tournament right from the get-go. Not to mention streamer wont be able to make as much money either.
I'd much rather see many smaller tournaments with a big scene rather than a few big PPV tournaments and a tiny scene divided into the tournaments they like, were I have to pay to watch. Even with the PPV model I just cant pay 20 bucks a month for EACH tournament! The competition will be fierce since you pretty much have to fight for the viewers money and its likely many companies will just fall. In the end there may just be like 3 major tournaments and so much less content. And by then the scene will most likely just be a fraction of what it once was, sure those big companies will make big money but esports will be just dead for hundreds of thousands of people. Its destructive, not for the companies of esports but for the fans.
Who says IEM should exist, or NASL. It's a dog eat dog world. We can't live in this stupid assumption that all these live events can co-exist and all make money. It's the same for esports teams. I'd rather see two huge tournaments that I know are sustainable and not going anywhere, that I can depend on. And then fun online tournaments for filler. Than the current terrible over saturation we have now.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
huh? I am not an expert, but doesn't every single sports league/event in the world rely on sponsorship for a significant portion of their revenue?
Seems to me like E-sports are growing at a huge rate, and I think it is much thanks to easily available and free high quality content. If we started to have to pay for content the community would shrink to a small percentage of what it currently is. Then the fees would be required since the viewer base would be so small and all advertisment would diminish.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
WCG and Dreamhack have been around over a decade, all sponsor supported. They're both completely different models of course, and not saying that MLG shouldn't charge for content, just saying that 'throwing in the towel' is not a foregone conclusion.
Also, hot pockets and dr. pepper represent a very different model for sponsorship than sponsors such as intel, cisco, telia,etc. It's not a clear cut distinction, but Hot pockets/Dr.Pepper etc are primarily sponsoring an event such as MLG to create brand loyalty. Their products are disposable, and they want to create habits in their customer base. Whereas intel/cisco/telia are sponsoring dreamhack, for example, in order to create brand equity-- they want to accrue the prestigious/high tech connotation associated with the event. Also notice the style that dreamhack content is produced in-- it lends itself to that type of sponsorship, and I'm also confident that sponsors had a hand in designing their content.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
MLG has a poor tournament, from a spectator's perspective, as opposed to GSL.
GSL regularly provides daily content, of the best players in the world, playing live matches, of which you get to see every single one.
MLG provides three days of content every other month, of high (but not quite GSL) quality, all live (like GSL), but you only see a fraction of the games.
I realize it's not viable for MLG to get players to show up in one place for an entire month, and MLG will never be the GSL, but what I want, and am willing to pay for, is the GSL. The experience of following the GSL is so vastly superior to any other SC2 tournament out there.
On February 10 2012 07:43 Thombur wrote: Seems to me like E-sports are growing at a huge rate, and I think it is much thanks to easily available and free high quality content. If we started to have to pay for content the community would shrink to a small percentage of what it currently is. Then the fees would be required since the viewer base would be so small and all advertisment would diminish.
Why would the viewership shrink to nothing? Seriously, I have a hard time wrapping my head around this. If you are an sc2 fan who likes MLG right now, why wouldn't you pay $5 or $10 for watching a tournament? Seems like a better deal than a movie at the theater. Why is $5 or $10 a bad deal for three days of entertainment focused on one of your hobbies or passions?
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
huh? I am not an expert, but doesn't every single sports league/event in the world rely on sponsorship for a significant portion of their revenue?
Events like conventions, sure they rely on it a good bit. But you think NFL needs ford to be their sponsor or they are fucked? No. Because their model is geared towards sustainability. But why not get some money while they are at it, same with stadium names. You might as well get some revenue from your stadium, but they are fine without it.
On February 10 2012 07:43 Thombur wrote: Seems to me like E-sports are growing at a huge rate, and I think it is much thanks to easily available and free high quality content. If we started to have to pay for content the community would shrink to a small percentage of what it currently is. Then the fees would be required since the viewer base would be so small and all advertisment would diminish.
Why would the viewership shrink to nothing? Seriously, I have a hard time wrapping my head around this. If you are an sc2 fan who likes MLG right now, why wouldn't you pay $5 or $10 for watching a tournament? Seems like a better deal than a movie at the theater. Why is $5 or $10 a bad deal for three days of entertainment focused on one of your hobbies or passions?
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM.
When I consider buyuing a ticket for a live stream from an event/tournament in eSports I look at those things : - content - production quality - how big of a deal the event is (excitement factor) - casters
and very important (in my eyes) :
- Who runs the tournament ?
It seems really stupid but when I see the CEO of MLG (Sundance DiGiovanni) on State of the Game answering the question : "What race do you play ?" says "Well, in Starcraft II I play as the marine" ?! I'm sorry but at that moment MLG loses all my support ..., I refuse to pay for a tournament where it's own CEO doesn't know the game / doesn't care about the game. At that point Sundance just lets everyone know that he's only there for the money. ($_$)
I hope that in the future we will see more tournaments run by ex-players / casters (à la Shoutcraft Cup / HDInvitanional even HomeStory cup which is related to ESL) because your actually paying for content that will reward players and make eSports grow and not the year-end "bonus" for some tournament staff that isn't part of the community.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
WCG and Dreamhack have been around over a decade, all sponsor supported. They're both completely different models of course, and not saying that MLG shouldn't charge for content, just saying that 'throwing in the towel' is not a foregone conclusion.
Also, hot pockets and dr. pepper represent a very different model for sponsorship than sponsors such as intel, cisco, telia,etc. It's not a clear cut distinction, but Hot pockets/Dr.Pepper etc are primarily sponsoring an event such as MLG to create brand loyalty. Their products are disposable, and they want to create habits in their customer base. Whereas intel/cisco/telia are sponsoring dreamhack, for example, in order to create brand equity-- they want to accrue the prestigious/high tech connotation associated with the event. Also notice the style that dreamhack content is produced in-- it lends itself to that type of sponsorship, and I'm also confident that sponsors had a hand in designing their content.
Anyways it's a subtle but important difference.
Yes I do understand those subtle differences sure, but intel doesn't need to support dream hack for gamers to know they are a good product. We KNOW intel, we already buy their stuff.
Your WCG proves my point, its a terrible model. Each country is left to fend for their own sponsors etc and then something like 2011 happens and samsung pulls the travel costs from SC2 players. If WCG was well-run, it wouldn't be a giant crapshoot. Good models of business feed into that, all cause and effect. Granted the finals are always nice!!!
Pay per view suffers from the bootstrap problem, if the content quality is unknown to begin with (e.g., with new streamers and tournaments), it won't get many views. So what people figured out was some hybrid model where the free stream is of lower quality and the paid high quality. However, this model suffers from a purposely decreased value which is my opinion not good for commerce. So what would be good? I think in the end the organisers should team up and form some collective agreement where people can pay like a monthly fee and watch major tournaments. In the end everyone gets paid per use, this is then based on the number of viewers a certain event draws. Users that do not pay this fee will only be able to see a select number of matches. Teamliquid can be a perfect mediator in this.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM.
Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
MLG has a poor tournament, from a spectator's perspective, as opposed to GSL.
GSL regularly provides daily content, of the best players in the world, playing live matches, of which you get to see every single one.
MLG provides three days of content every other month, of high (but not quite GSL) quality, all live (like GSL), but you only see a fraction of the games.
I realize it's not viable for MLG to get players to show up in one place for an entire month, and MLG will never be the GSL, but what I want, and am willing to pay for, is the GSL. The experience of following the GSL is so vastly superior to any other SC2 tournament out there.
1) MLG provides vods too so you can watch all the games. You can watch a fraction live, but for north american timezones, its easier/more convenient to watch MLG live. I've watched far more live MLG games than GSL.
2) Vastly superior is in the eye of the beholder. MLG is often far more entertaining than GSL, if you ask me. I love seeing high level play but I also love the drama you see at MLGs which frankly just doesnt happen at GSL.
3) What does it have to be treated as an either/or? GSL and MLG are both good values as far as the price of entertainment goes.
On February 10 2012 04:39 Liquid`NonY wrote:I'll be damned if most esports fans don't have $30/month to spend for the many hours of entertainment they get from esports. They just feel entitled (not entirely their fault) and they feel some irrational hatred for anyone who is trying to turn a profit, pay their employees and guarantee that the content that everyone loves continues to be produced.
I don't have $30/month to spend on Starcraft! I bought that GSL lite ticket, but that's all I can justify spending. All my other spending is for Netflix streaming and for things like cheap sporting events, bars, and dating. My 'entertainment' budget is super tight as a college student and I can't blow everything on Starcraft. I could cut out the GSL ticket, but why? It's like skipping the major leagues and paying for the minors.
lol.
your argument is nullified with the bold. you could just say you are not a fan of esports and thus other priorities take precedence for your entertainment (i.e. overpriced alcohol in bars > $30/mo for esports)
He just has to split his available money between his different interests. I Could probably spend 30 Dollar for sc2 if reduced my other hobbys. But i don't want to do it because other things are equally important for me.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
MLG has a poor tournament, from a spectator's perspective, as opposed to GSL.
GSL regularly provides daily content, of the best players in the world, playing live matches, of which you get to see every single one.
MLG provides three days of content every other month, of high (but not quite GSL) quality, all live (like GSL), but you only see a fraction of the games.
I realize it's not viable for MLG to get players to show up in one place for an entire month, and MLG will never be the GSL, but what I want, and am willing to pay for, is the GSL. The experience of following the GSL is so vastly superior to any other SC2 tournament out there.
Correct, for the championship event is what you are talking about. My pricing model had a monthly subscription that assumed an arena every month and content delivered consistently. Like fuck slasher, sotg, etc. If there was a show every day for 2 hrs, you'd have great quantity and good quality. MLG packs so many games and VODs into three days too, also the experience is totally different than GSL, hard to compare exactly
On February 10 2012 02:35 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On February 10 2012 02:20 Ucs wrote:
On February 10 2012 01:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On February 10 2012 01:20 MrCon wrote:
On February 10 2012 01:00 Biff The Understudy wrote: 1- I went to Brood War because I could watch in on youtube for free. I discovered Boxer, Nada and Oov through Nevake, Jon747 and Violetak channels. If that hadn't been for free, I wouldn't have paid anything, and I wouldn't have known BW pro-scene. The same way I watch tennis from time to time. If I had to pay fucking 20 dollars a month to watch tennis, I wouldn't watch tennis. Even Roland-Garros.
2- I have never watch a single code A, S or GSL game, and therefore I never became interested in pro SC2. Because there is no fucking way I will pay to watch people play a video game. If it had been for free, I would maybe have become interested in the pro-scene and therefore in the game. I haven't. One less client for esport and pro-SC2.
Asking people to pay for GSL is already a terrible idea. They make money from commercials and sponsors anyway. It works now, but it won't work long. BW would have died after few years if watching OSL / MSL / Proleague had costed anything.
Asking people for "quality stream" that are not at least as big as GSL is a joke. Seriously.
GSL stream is free. GSL has no ads and its sponsor is a Korean one, marketed for the Korean audience. There is a billion of free contents for sc2, don't act like GOM having paid vods is what prevented you to get interested in sc2 ><
Oh yeah, I mixed up GSL and GOM.
Well, I don't know anything. Just that I can't watch the biggest league without paying or registering on some obscure website. When I want to look at OSL, I just wait for one of the 6 streams or the youtube vod. There is no such things with major Korean league, apparently. Except that, there are apparently a zillion foreign cup that all have kind of similar names with players that I don't know. Seriously if BW scene had been like SC2 is nowadays, I would have never bothered to watch it. And I would have certainly not paid to have my OSL vods. I am a huge fan and I still wouldn't.
I wouldn't have started BW by watching the foreign scene, and as much as I wanted to see Boxer instead of Idra or Fenix, I am kind of curious to see the final of a GSL but really not by random people in a random cup. You get into these things later.
You sir are a huge troll bent on doing as much missinformation and spewing dumb false arguments everywhere. GSL stream is free, VOD's are not. You don't have to register on some obscure website to watch GSL ( u can log in with twitter/facebook) or MLG. I get that you don't like SC2 so just don't bother doing missinformation and ignore it. We don't really need a "huge fan" who can't pay 5$ for VOD's and can't be arsed to watch free streams even thou his so called heroes Boxer/nada are playing in those cups.
Foreginer cups actually are usually filled with nothing but VERY well know sc2 players. There are actually tons of threads about people complaining that other players don't get a chance to play in foreign cups due to the fact there are no free spots/qualificatins.
TL;DR Stop spreading false information, and if u don't like SC2 stop posting in SC2 General.
LOL. Hey dude, I've been there for four years and I have 35 times more post than you on this website. So maybe don't talk to me as if I just arrived there and knew nothing.
I don't say that the scene is this way or that way. I say that, as much as I have been caught in BW because precisely the biggest league were easy to access and free, I didn't get into watching SC2 because:
1- The biggest league is not free. Ok, maybe it is IF you register on GOMIdon'tknnowwhat and catch the exact time, and if you don't you won't find the VOD on youtube anyway.
2- It's not exciting to watch small leagues when you don't know the game well.
That's not misinformation, it's not true or false, it's just my experience. Maybe I am wrong, but still, I am not a SC2 fan, the scene didn't catch me, while it should. I would have watched the GSL if it was on youtube, because that's the one I know (don't know any other cup name), and maybe from then, I would have started to get interested. Starting with EWN (?) or IMBA (?), that's a bit harder than by a huge korean tournament.
I didn't start watching BW because of Idra. Actually, I never watched him at all, except in TSL. I got interested because, as a clueless noob, I found OSL final with people like Savior, Bisu or Oov. From then, I started to learn more. But it had to be OSL. Had it been BW equivalent of Zotac (?) cup, I wouldn't have bothered.
So my point is that if on top of that, you had to pay to watch EWN and IMBA (whatever they are), people like me would be even more unlikely to get interested. GOM locking the GSL and asking people to pay is hurting esports.
So you don't know anything about the SC2 scene. That's fine. Your opinion on it really has no value in this thread then.
Times have changed since OSL and Youtube VODs and that model doesn't work for SC2.
I have absolutely no opinion about the scene that I don't know. I just know that the one league I would have been vaguely interested watching without knowing the game and the zillion different events is GSL and that their locked up system is the reason I didn't start watching it.
From then, I guess SC2 would lose a lot of potential viewer by being all organized like GSL or by working on a paying basis. And I said that, had BW been organized like GOM organizes SC2, I wouldn't have discovered it at all.
Maybe it makes no sense at all, but that's just the way it has been for me.
On February 10 2012 07:57 LunaSea wrote: Just my two cents on this topic :
When I consider buyuing a ticket for a live stream from an event/tournament in eSports I look at those things : - content - production quality - how big of a deal the event is (excitement factor) - casters
and very important (in my eyes) :
- Who runs the tournament ?
It seems really stupid but when I see the CEO of MLG (Sundance DiGiovanni) on State of the Game answering the question : "What race do you play ?" says "Well, in Starcraft II I play as the marine" ?! I'm sorry but at that moment MLG loses all my support ..., I refuse to pay for a tournament where it's own CEO doesn't know the game / doesn't care about the game. At that point Sundance just lets everyone know that he's only there for the money. ($_$)
I hope that in the future we will see more tournaments run by ex-players / casters (à la Shoutcraft Cup / HDInvitanional even HomeStory cup which is related to ESL) because your actually paying for content that will reward players and make eSports grow and not the year-end "bonus" for some tournament staff that isn't part of the community.
You realize they play other games at MLGs right? Do you expect Sundance to be intimately familiar with every single game played at his tournaments? I certainly don't. He can be part of the community (and frequently is) without playing the game. He's not casting the games, he's organizing the event.
On February 10 2012 07:34 MHT wrote: There is no way I would pay PPV especially when there's so many tournaments. Either some go PPV and I stop watching them since there's free once, or they all go PPV and I quit watching all-together. One thing is sure and that is the scene will shrink heavily and ad&sponsor money will be worth much less and therefore smaller companies wont be able to establish since they cant just slam a PPV worthy tournament right from the get-go. Not to mention streamer wont be able to make as much money either.
I'd much rather see many smaller tournaments with a big scene rather than a few big PPV tournaments and a tiny scene divided into the tournaments they like, were I have to pay to watch. Even with the PPV model I just cant pay 20 bucks a month for EACH tournament! The competition will be fierce since you pretty much have to fight for the viewers money and its likely many companies will just fall. In the end there may just be like 3 major tournaments and so much less content. And by then the scene will most likely just be a fraction of what it once was, sure those big companies will make big money but esports will be just dead for hundreds of thousands of people. Its destructive, not for the companies of esports but for the fans.
Who says IEM should exist, or NASL. It's a dog eat dog world. We can't live in this stupid assumption that all these live events can co-exist and all make money. It's the same for esports teams. I'd rather see two huge tournaments that I know are sustainable and not going anywhere, that I can depend on. And then fun online tournaments for filler. Than the current terrible over saturation we have now.
We got here just fine without PPV and we will keep growing and increasing sponsor money, but if you start charging new people just wont ever get into it cause why risk throwing money at something your not sure you like. For instance I cant really convince my brother to start watching starcraft if its gonna cost him but if its free he'll can go "sure why it wont hurt to try! This system doesn't support growth, when people quit watching there wont be anyone to replace them because no one gave it chance since it would cost them to even try. Its like milking the the community dry, a temporary boom in money then a never ending decline. Sure Sc2 wont last forever but I think it will sustain way longer in the current model than it would in a PPV one.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
MLG has a poor tournament, from a spectator's perspective, as opposed to GSL.
GSL regularly provides daily content, of the best players in the world, playing live matches, of which you get to see every single one.
MLG provides three days of content every other month, of high (but not quite GSL) quality, all live (like GSL), but you only see a fraction of the games.
I realize it's not viable for MLG to get players to show up in one place for an entire month, and MLG will never be the GSL, but what I want, and am willing to pay for, is the GSL. The experience of following the GSL is so vastly superior to any other SC2 tournament out there.
1) MLG provides vods too so you can watch all the games. You can watch a fraction live, but for north american timezones, its easier/more convenient to watch MLG live. I've watched far more live MLG games than GSL.
2) Vastly superior is in the eye of the beholder. MLG is often far more entertaining than GSL, if you ask me. I love seeing high level play but I also love the drama you see at MLGs which frankly just doesnt happen at GSL.
3) What does it have to be treated as an either/or? GSL and MLG are both good values as far as the price of entertainment goes.
On February 10 2012 07:43 Thombur wrote: Seems to me like E-sports are growing at a huge rate, and I think it is much thanks to easily available and free high quality content. If we started to have to pay for content the community would shrink to a small percentage of what it currently is. Then the fees would be required since the viewer base would be so small and all advertisment would diminish.
Why would the viewership shrink to nothing? Seriously, I have a hard time wrapping my head around this. If you are an sc2 fan who likes MLG right now, why wouldn't you pay $5 or $10 for watching a tournament? Seems like a better deal than a movie at the theater. Why is $5 or $10 a bad deal for three days of entertainment focused on one of your hobbies or passions?
Because there are so many cups and online tournaments I can view that are free. If none of them were free I might settle for one I like and only view that. Maybe I'd stop watching and find something else that is fun to watch since it would be more difficult keeping up with the general development of the sport.
I have no problem and highly encourage companies/leagues/corporations to charge for their content Providing it is something worth paying for So far, GSL and MLG are in my opinion the only ones so far who provide high enough quality to charge, which they do but also nicely offer lower quality for free <3
I already pay for my internet Bandwith and face penalities if I over download. I restrain myself to max 360p on streams not to bust and pay astronomical fees. If I had to pay for a MLG streaming, I would just go to Barcraft Montreal!
PS: Too keep it free, I would just require people to create an account, be forced to answer a 1-2 pages survey that would then be sold to compagnies so they can send "personnalised" advertisements based on the answers. If you ask people to be honest as it helps to keep the stream free, alot of us would cooperate I'm sure.
It seems really stupid but when I see the CEO of MLG (Sundance DiGiovanni) on State of the Game answering the question : "What race do you play ?" says "Well, in Starcraft II I play as the marine" ?! I'm sorry but at that moment MLG loses all my support ..., I refuse to pay for a tournament where it's own CEO doesn't know the game / doesn't care about the game. At that point Sundance just lets everyone know that he's only there for the money. ($_$)
I'm sorry but if you take one answer to a question over what he has done for SC2 this year, you are clearly an ignorant person. Actions speak louder than words, and it is clear that he is committed to improving SC2 as an e-sport based on what has happened this past year and what is to come this year.
When I consider buyuing a ticket for a live stream from an event/tournament in eSports I look at those things : - content - production quality - how big of a deal the event is (excitement factor) - casters
and very important (in my eyes) :
- Who runs the tournament ?
It seems really stupid but when I see the CEO of MLG (Sundance DiGiovanni) on State of the Game answering the question : "What race do you play ?" says "Well, in Starcraft II I play as the marine" ?! I'm sorry but at that moment MLG loses all my support ..., I refuse to pay for a tournament where it's own CEO doesn't know the game / doesn't care about the game. At that point Sundance just lets everyone know that he's only there for the money. ($_$)
I hope that in the future we will see more tournaments run by ex-players / casters (à la Shoutcraft Cup / HDInvitanional even HomeStory cup which is related to ESL) because your actually paying for content that will reward players and make eSports grow and not the year-end "bonus" for some tournament staff that isn't part of the community.
You realize they play other games at MLGs right? Do you expect Sundance to be intimately familiar with every single game played at his tournaments? I certainly don't. He can be part of the community (and frequently is) without playing the game. He's not casting the games, he's organizing the event.
I don't expect Sundance to be a pro in every game they play at MLG but a basic knowledge of the game (randomly : the three playable races of the game) is just obviously needed in my opinion, because then you would actually what your talking about when your organising events. Plus I don't think he can be part of the Starcraft community for example without playing the game. He maybe organizes the tournament but the fact that someone coms up with money doesn't makes that person part of whatever community, it's just wrong.
Not getting into the topic at hand, I do not respect Lord Jerith. He is very ignorant about many of the older (mostly PC) games, and really likes to inflate his knowledge and influence.
I used to listen to The Loser's Bracket to learn more about the console competitive players. I did learn a lot, but I also got sad many a time, hearing his words and knowing that he's considered worthy of listening to by some.
I think Chill summed it up pretty well on the first page. If the community cannot support a more business oriented approach, gaming was never destined to be more than a niche market.
When I consider buyuing a ticket for a live stream from an event/tournament in eSports I look at those things : - content - production quality - how big of a deal the event is (excitement factor) - casters
and very important (in my eyes) :
- Who runs the tournament ?
It seems really stupid but when I see the CEO of MLG (Sundance DiGiovanni) on State of the Game answering the question : "What race do you play ?" says "Well, in Starcraft II I play as the marine" ?! I'm sorry but at that moment MLG loses all my support ..., I refuse to pay for a tournament where it's own CEO doesn't know the game / doesn't care about the game. At that point Sundance just lets everyone know that he's only there for the money. ($_$)
I hope that in the future we will see more tournaments run by ex-players / casters (à la Shoutcraft Cup / HDInvitanional even HomeStory cup which is related to ESL) because your actually paying for content that will reward players and make eSports grow and not the year-end "bonus" for some tournament staff that isn't part of the community.
You realize they play other games at MLGs right? Do you expect Sundance to be intimately familiar with every single game played at his tournaments? I certainly don't. He can be part of the community (and frequently is) without playing the game. He's not casting the games, he's organizing the event.
I don't expect Sundance to be a pro in every game they play at MLG but a basic knowledge of the game (randomly : the three playable races of the game) is just obviously needed in my opinion, because then you would actually what your talking about when your organising events. Plus I don't think he can be part of the Starcraft community for example without playing the game. He maybe organizes the tournament but the fact that someone coms up with money doesn't makes that person part of whatever community, it's just wrong.
I'd prefer for him to run the business better rather than learning build orders. It's not like he's a commentator...
PPV would kill the scene. People would be forced to choose between tournaments, and viewership is fragmented, and leagues like NASL would probably be wiped out. Now, PPV would not be as bad if all the major tournaments could band together and charge a 1 time fee. I would be pissed if I had to pay it, but I would still do it. Hopefully that does not happen though...
It seems really stupid but when I see the CEO of MLG (Sundance DiGiovanni) on State of the Game answering the question : "What race do you play ?" says "Well, in Starcraft II I play as the marine" ?! I'm sorry but at that moment MLG loses all my support ..., I refuse to pay for a tournament where it's own CEO doesn't know the game / doesn't care about the game. At that point Sundance just lets everyone know that he's only there for the money. ($_$)
I'm sorry but if you take one answer to a question over what he has done for SC2 this year, you are clearly an ignorant person. Actions speak louder than words, and it is clear that he is committed to improving SC2 as an e-sport based on what has happened this past year and what is to come this year.
I'm not here to be critical about Sundance but face it, after one year we are still askings ourselves why MLG has extended series event when most of the progamers are against it since the beginning, prize pool went down, there are still complaints about the stream's lag or production quality and the cancelled all the show they had (Sotg, F*ck Slasher, ...etc). I don't think that Sundance is "against the growth" of starcraft obviously but I think that the way he is taking, which is the "business" way is a bad way to improve eSports. If you look at Facebook (the example was taking in this thread before) they have ad revenues and only know, after 6 years or so of existence they're going to go public.
Someone really needs to convince me of this "everyone is losing money in esports crap". There's tournaments everyday offering some kind of prize pool ranging from hundreds of dollars to thousands to tens of thousands up to ~100k. We have more leagues than can be counted. MLG, GSL, ESL, NASL, IPL, DH, HSC are the big ones then we have a bunch of smaller ones or online only tournaments like KSL, korean weekly, playhem, some french tournament called iron squid i just learned about, TSL, shoutcraft invitational, and all with prize money on the line. Top 30 players are making good money, some casters getting 20k per event...
So where's all this money coming from? Are all these people who are putting money into this just stupid? Or is this just about making sure everyone involved can live comfortably off esports at the spectator's expense? What we need is consolidation, a governing body, and less games but higher quality content. That's how you'll see growth. Not by putting the game behind a paywall and milking the current fans while turning away new ones.
On February 10 2012 08:13 theBizness wrote: I think Chill summed it up pretty well on the first page. If the community cannot support a more business oriented approach, gaming was never destined to be more than a niche market.
There is nothing wrong with eSports being focused on a niche market. I have my doubts that eSports will ever be more than a niche arena. Gaming may have become more prevalent with social gaming, but the complexity of and the difficulty of the games makes it more difficult for casual non gamers to watch. My concern is will eSports in the long run make enough profit to support itself. Perhaps we don't have the best demographics, but if these tournaments and sponsors can't make enough money to be self sufficient, I worry for the future of eSports.
On February 10 2012 08:20 Bagration wrote: PPV would kill the scene. People would be forced to choose between tournaments, and viewership is fragmented, and leagues like NASL would probably be wiped out. Now, PPV would not be as bad if all the major tournaments could band together and charge a 1 time fee. I would be pissed if I had to pay it, but I would still do it. Hopefully that does not happen though...
That would never happen simply because some leagues would think they are worth more than others in terms of viewership/draw and want more of the percentage. Greed basically kills that idea from the get go.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
WCG and Dreamhack have been around over a decade, all sponsor supported. They're both completely different models of course, and not saying that MLG shouldn't charge for content, just saying that 'throwing in the towel' is not a foregone conclusion.
Also, hot pockets and dr. pepper represent a very different model for sponsorship than sponsors such as intel, cisco, telia,etc. It's not a clear cut distinction, but Hot pockets/Dr.Pepper etc are primarily sponsoring an event such as MLG to create brand loyalty. Their products are disposable, and they want to create habits in their customer base. Whereas intel/cisco/telia are sponsoring dreamhack, for example, in order to create brand equity-- they want to accrue the prestigious/high tech connotation associated with the event. Also notice the style that dreamhack content is produced in-- it lends itself to that type of sponsorship, and I'm also confident that sponsors had a hand in designing their content.
Anyways it's a subtle but important difference.
Yes I do understand those subtle differences sure, but intel doesn't need to support dream hack for gamers to know they are a good product. We KNOW intel, we already buy their stuff.
Your WCG proves my point, its a terrible model. Each country is left to fend for their own sponsors etc and then something like 2011 happens and samsung pulls the travel costs from SC2 players. If WCG was well-run, it wouldn't be a giant crapshoot. Good models of business feed into that, all cause and effect. Granted the finals are always nice!!!
Yeah, WCG has it's problems, that's something we can all agree on. We love em and we're infuriated by them too...
Intel though, the reason we perceive them as having a good product is precisely because of intiatives like dreamhack that increase brand equity-- so long as dreamhack continues to provide an excellent product (which it will given its history and the fact that its product is very specifically catered to be attractive to sponsors such as intel, whether intel has a hand in directly shaping it or not) intel will continue to cultivate its relationship with dreamhack.
Dreamhack arguably has more event costs than something like MLG, but they're able to attract enough sponsorship dollars to make them a completely viable operation solely based on this as revenue. That said though, dreamhack is a festival with a tournament component, it does a lot more than MLG does, and I dont think it's going to morph into the defacto sc2 league because of this. (Though I could be pleasantly surprised!)
That said, I sometimes wonder if this type of model is something esports needs to expand upon. I mean, if you look at pro sports, a lot of brands are synonymous with what they sponsor-- adidas isn't a clothing brand, it's a sports brand. etc etc etc. I watch soccer, but I've never directly paid for anything soccer related. Same goes with hockey, though in the past I've forked over 60$ to watch a game or two in an arena. Peripheral companies are getting to that point, Razer, steelseries etc, but they won't take it the whole way I think.
People in the thread are saying sponsors aren't making money, but it's pretty hard for a company like kingston hyper X or intel to quantify the sales that result from sponsoring an sc2 league-- its more about building a corporate image in those cases, and it would be really hard to quantify aside from estimating views and impact.
People need to stop being tightasses. Think of how much enjoyment and entertainment you get from the SC2 scene. How much have you paid to support it?
If a league were to go fully PPV they would need to have a trial run to prove to people that their production value was worth the money. For some reason everyone in the SC2 community seems to be ludicrously hesistant to ever pay money for anything.
When I consider buyuing a ticket for a live stream from an event/tournament in eSports I look at those things : - content - production quality - how big of a deal the event is (excitement factor) - casters
and very important (in my eyes) :
- Who runs the tournament ?
It seems really stupid but when I see the CEO of MLG (Sundance DiGiovanni) on State of the Game answering the question : "What race do you play ?" says "Well, in Starcraft II I play as the marine" ?! I'm sorry but at that moment MLG loses all my support ..., I refuse to pay for a tournament where it's own CEO doesn't know the game / doesn't care about the game. At that point Sundance just lets everyone know that he's only there for the money. ($_$)
I hope that in the future we will see more tournaments run by ex-players / casters (à la Shoutcraft Cup / HDInvitanional even HomeStory cup which is related to ESL) because your actually paying for content that will reward players and make eSports grow and not the year-end "bonus" for some tournament staff that isn't part of the community.
You realize they play other games at MLGs right? Do you expect Sundance to be intimately familiar with every single game played at his tournaments? I certainly don't. He can be part of the community (and frequently is) without playing the game. He's not casting the games, he's organizing the event.
I don't expect Sundance to be a pro in every game they play at MLG but a basic knowledge of the game (randomly : the three playable races of the game) is just obviously needed in my opinion, because then you would actually what your talking about when your organising events. Plus I don't think he can be part of the Starcraft community for example without playing the game. He maybe organizes the tournament but the fact that someone coms up with money doesn't makes that person part of whatever community, it's just wrong.
I'd prefer for him to run the business better rather than learning build orders. It's not like he's a commentator...
Again, he hasn't to be a pro or learn build orders but the fact that the guy doesn't know a single (basic) thing about the game just makes me doubt about his competence to run his events and make them grow.
And like I said in my previous post, we still have extended series after one year of progamers complaining about it...
On February 10 2012 08:21 L3gendary wrote: Someone really needs to convince me of this "everyone is losing money in esports crap". There's tournaments everyday offering some kind of prize pool ranging from hundreds of dollars to thousands to tens of thousands up to ~100k. We have more leagues than can be counted. MLG, GSL, ESL, NASL, IPL, DH, HSC are the big ones then we have a bunch of smaller ones or online only tournaments like KSL, korean weekly, playhem, some french tournament called iron squid i just learned about, TSL, shoutcraft invitational, and all with prize money on the line. Top 30 players are making good money, some casters getting 20k per event...
So where's all this money coming from? Are all these people who are putting money into this just stupid? Or is this just about making sure everyone involved can live comfortably off esports at the spectator's expense? What we need is consolidation, a governing body, and less games but higher quality content. That's how you'll see growth. Not by putting the game behind a paywall and milking the current fans while turning away new ones.
lol, anytime a league tries to make money the fans revolt because they're not getting it for free. this is absolutely horrible for the sustaining a profitable league.
the money comes from sponsors and investors who see the potential in each league, and they just dump money into this new ESPORTS phenomenon thinking it will pay off later. the key is making it pay off so we can get more money flowing back into the competitive scene.
so far, I don't think any league has seen any major payoffs other than a bunch of public support. but this support is through free content, what happens they have to confront the fans with the reality that they need to make money?
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM.
Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong
Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket).
I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there.
I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol.
These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing)
But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else.
Generally digital things become less expensive, rather than more... I imagine we'll see more ads and less viewer fees as SC2 marches forward. But obviously we'll see, it's a complex system.
Please share your feedback here. From what I can tell, this is a subject that MLG looks to be watching closely. We need to speak up and share our concerns, questions, and feelings. Look forward to your feedback.
Since the OP was asking for feedback, here it is: if MLG charged for PPV, I wouldn't watch it. The only tournament that I'd pay to watch if it was subscription-only is GSL, as I did in the past, but I most likely wouldn't pay for all seasons.
There is way, waaaaay too much content going right now. I have no idea how a non-GSL tournament could try and get away to charging people for PPV without being swallowed by competition. The many tournaments, leagues and cups out there compete not only among themselves but with many POV streamers that usually feature better content than competitive matches with casters. Even if all sc2-related stuff agreed to charge, the potential new viewers would just stick to LOL or something.
I have no idea why someone thinks that "monetize e-sports" should mean PPV. A lot of sports have survived charging nothing to TV viewers, but are making money out of live experience events, merchandising and sponsors. PPV only isn't the norm, not even close.
Having free content is an amazing way to make money with everything else, since this is how you attract and keep people interested. Setting up a stream is a lot easier than it was to get TV coverage in the past, and there were events that would pay to be shown on open TV. Seize the opportunity, don't kill it.
Also, I can't imagine how third-tier teams, including vVv and several others, would ever be profitable, regardless of the business model adopted by the industry.
On February 10 2012 07:00 dementrio wrote: If a company has a free stream and asks $10 for premium quality or content, we think "well I guess if I don't support this company I'm killing ESPORTS"
If a company has no free stream and asks $5 for providing it, we think "you need to do better than this to get my 5 bucks"
This is what chill meant by "charity" I think.
Instead, I don't think that way. If my money supports a company it does so because I (the owner of my money) decide to give it to said company. I do that because the quality of the product convinced me to do so.
If I give my money to a company for the SOLE reason to support them, without being convinced by the quality of their stuff, then that's charity in my book.
I never asked for free streams. ESPORTS apparrently is asking me to pay for their content to save its ass and not because the content is worth it.
That's asking for Donations.
EDIT:
On February 10 2012 07:03 Chill wrote:
On February 10 2012 07:00 dementrio wrote: If a company has a free stream and asks $10 for premium quality or content, we think "well I guess if I don't support this company I'm killing ESPORTS"
If a company has no free stream and asks $5 for providing it, we think "you need to do better than this to get my 5 bucks"
This is what chill meant by "charity" I think.
That's exactly what I meant. You should think the content is worth some value so you are willing to pay at most that. You should not give them your money anyways to artificially support an industry that you don't think is worth it. An industry can't survive on people supporting it just to keep it alive. That will work for a few years, tops, but eventually people will get tired of supporting something that isn't giving them that value back.
OK, I'm confused now. You're basically saying what I'm saying. Did I misunderstand something?
Not a native speaker.
I think Chill was talking about the people who want to continue watching high-quality SC2 content (i.e. the GSL) for free when the content really does justify some sort of cost.
Essentially the people wanting something for nothing. You are obviously wanting something for something. There's a difference.
If it is truly Jerith's position that people should be funneling money into eSports so that it doesn't collapse, that's a retarded position. If tournaments want to charge premium prices, they need to provide premium content. The vast majority of them don't.
It was actually the opposite - people shouldn't give money to companies unless they think their products are worth it. Don't use your money to support esports or else you've created a bubble.
I agree with this 100% assuming I understand you correctly, and this is one thing that frustrates me to no end about the community. Everyone acts like if you give money to a tournament with crappy production like NASL you are "helping esports" and by proxy helping every tournament. In my opinion by doing so you are just temporarily sustaining poorly run or thought out companies that will lose interest in the long run and crash. Your justification for purchasing something shouldn't be helping "esports", it should be paying a company for a good quality product, something I have no problem paying GSL for every month. I am sick of the attitude that people are "learning" or "new" or "whatever excuse ESL has now" and we should cut them slack and still buy their products to support esports.
On February 10 2012 08:21 L3gendary wrote: Someone really needs to convince me of this "everyone is losing money in esports crap". There's tournaments everyday offering some kind of prize pool ranging from hundreds of dollars to thousands to tens of thousands up to ~100k. We have more leagues than can be counted. MLG, GSL, ESL, NASL, IPL, DH, HSC are the big ones then we have a bunch of smaller ones or online only tournaments like KSL, korean weekly, playhem, some french tournament called iron squid i just learned about, TSL, shoutcraft invitational, and all with prize money on the line. Top 30 players are making good money, some casters getting 20k per event...
So where's all this money coming from? Are all these people who are putting money into this just stupid? Or is this just about making sure everyone involved can live comfortably off esports at the spectator's expense? What we need is consolidation, a governing body, and less games but higher quality content. That's how you'll see growth. Not by putting the game behind a paywall and milking the current fans while turning away new ones.
lol, anytime a league tries to make money the fans revolt because they're not getting it for free. this is absolutely horrible for the sustaining a profitable league.
the money comes from sponsors and investors who see the potential in each league, and they just dump money into this new ESPORTS phenomenon thinking it will pay off later. the key is making it pay off so we can get more money flowing back into the competitive scene.
so far, I don't think any league has seen any major payoffs other than a bunch of public support. but this support is through free content, what happens they have to confront the fans with the reality that they need to make money?
For the Nth time: No one is revolting. If a league decides to charge $1,000 per BO3 series, that's well within their rights. I will laugh at them and obviously not buy, but I won't revolt.
The people in here who are arguing against a PPV system are doing so, because they believe that our beloved and capitalized "ESPORTS" would be worse off with it. Mainly because most of us would simply stop watching, and you know what that meant? Less viewers overall, i.e. not as much subscription money as you had hoped for, plus less people exposed to ads, i.e. not as much ad revenue as you had hoped for. None of you guys believe, you'd get your PPVs ad-free, do you?
On February 10 2012 08:34 Thombur wrote: The way esports work atm paying to see tournaments would feel like having to pay extra money for each tv-series you want to watch on your TV.
Would you pay, say, $150 a year if Twitch partnered with all the majors and packaged those tournaments into one bundle? In other words, if you had
Option A) Pay $150 or $12.50 / year for the Twitch bundle, including MLG, IPL, Gom, NASL, IEM, Dreamhack etc. Option B) Not watch anything except smaller tournaments/weeklies/dailies that exist outside of this proposed bundle
Which would you choose?
Trying to think along the lines of cable packages here. Don't focus too hard on the specific 150 number, but more on the idea of it.
I'm curious if any of the bigwigs out there (Sundance and the like) or community figureheads (day9, djwheat, etc) or even team managers (sirscoots) have ever talked to anyone in one of the major sports about things? How "esports" might be able to legitimize itself more and become a more sustainable thing.
I know esports is its own monster. It's born of the internet and gaming age. It has a very short history and a different community to that of traditional sports. But while posing new and interesting challenges gaming has something pretty amazing going for it in that it transcends almost every grouping of people. Rich, poor, black, white, man, woman, jock, nerd, casual, hardcore, America, Asia, Europe, people all over like gaming. It will also become more prevalent as time goes on. Your grandpa probably wont ever play a video game, but when you're a grandpa you either might still or will have grown up playing them and understanding.
I fully believe that esports will never be mainstream like football. You're not going to fill 16 stadiums a week for 15 weeks (bye week), plus TV viewership off of a video game. So I think shooting for that to be the endgame is quite silly. But on some level, given the right minds behind it there is a way to make it a legitimate business.
I know in professional sports there are a lot of gamers. Just a few easy ones off the top of my head you have Nik Lentz of the UFC, Chris "Warcraft" Kluwe the punter for the Minnesota vikings (NFL), even Joe Rogan the UFC announcer admits to at one time being insanely addicted to quake. I'm probably thinking a little outside of the box, but maybe a bigwig in the esports realm could somehow use someone like that to get some insight from a higher up in a traditional sport? Maybe someone like Mark Cuban who owns the Dallas Mavericks (NBA) and made his fortune from a tech company has ideas since he'd probably have more of a pulse on the internet than some ancient person like Jerry Jones? I dunno, just throwing shit out there.
But I do believe on some level, with the right mindset (not trying to rape every cent out of the scene), and the right group of minds thinking about it there is a plan our there that works. It's just a matter of finding it.
Oh yes, even the UFC almost went under. I'm not talking about the Royce Gracie 1991 UFC that clearly did go under water till The Fertita brothers and Dana White got a hold of it. After they bought the UFC it was going to go down. If memory serves they were losing money and Dana told one of the Fertita brothers to give them it one last event. I believe it was a fight between Chuck Liddell and Randy Couture that changed everything. I saw an interview with Dana White somewhere talking about this. Was a few years ago, but basically they had this blockbuster fight that blew them up and now they're obviously on top of the world of MMA.
Edit: Had to fix a few things Edit2: Forgot to add something!
I hate to point out the obvious, especially because I, to a limited extent, somewhat agree with and support some of his points (primarily by committing currency to the eSports community, both merchandise and stream services)... but this vVv LordJerith guy sounds like the Rush Limbaugh of eSports.
Monetizing has a lot to do with trust. With all the corruption, occupy wallstreet protests, and general deviousness that the general public has with any type of big govt/business/pay model these days you need to establish loyalty and trust. GSL has gained the trust from a lot of people through what they have done with GSL. Trust is a big issue when it comes to dishing out any amount of money. Why does TB get so many donations and things for his shoutcraft tournies, or any number of those charity 24hr streamathons get so many donations? Yes its good to make a profit and I'm all for it but i'd like to know where my money is going and not just yeah its going to MLG derp. How does a company like MLG gain the trust of the public? Perhaps full disclosure of its budget? I just need a reason to trust some of these events but I don't know exactly how that comes about.
I don't have a hero either. Sure I love some of the NA players but there is no hero for me; not even a glimmer of hope for someone to compete against the top players in the world (Koreans). GSL is like the NBA and MLG/NASL ect.. are like the WNBA but allows some NBA players to come play. Is it this feeling of hopelessness and knowing that even if someone does well in the NA events they wont be able to compete in GSL, that's preventing me from feeling good about throwing money at them? I feel alright with buying GSL because I feel like they are very family-like. MLG and the US tournies feel more generic and big business-like. I think we need a better psychological profile of these businesses and the customer base.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM.
Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong
Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket).
I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there.
I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol.
These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing)
But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else.
lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out.
I'll pay for things that I find value in as a consumer.
I expect Sundance, Mr. Chae and other leaders in the industry to decide how they can best create value. Posing a hypothetical about if PPV is a tough way to make a decision, as there are too many unaccounted variables.
I am disappointed that traditional broadcast models are being suggested, such as PPV. Where is the evolution in thought when it comes to delivering world-class content to fans? These companies have access to tech savvy consumers and internet presence like never before -- build a platform on that?! Partner up to share cost and shorten time to market. Maybe the fighting community leaders and LoL would be interested in a shared subscription model in order to create an appealing menu of content to subscribers and advertisers alike.
On February 10 2012 08:50 Doodsmack wrote: lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out.
Well demanding that SC2 tournaments make people pay LIKE "a professional sport that is watched by millions on national TV" "boggles"my mind even more here.
Imagine a drug kingpin sitting on a throne with his mighty swagger thinking about how he can get this new dope ass drug (called idraphine, naniweed, hukstacy or whatever) out on the market. So he gets a couple of drug dealers and tells them to give away a small dose to as many people as possible and he'll pay the dealers a small fee per guy who takes the drug. Now some of the dealers manage to find a huge audience Pimpin'Nine, Dreamthug, Great Swag Lamarr and Mighty Lil' Gangsta is giving this new drug away like its viagra in the common elderly home brothel.
However there are some drug dealers who doesn't show the same efficiency, mostly because a lot of people prefer the older drugs or really prefer the other more swagger looking drug dealers. Lil'Nassel and his gang is not up to par with the top notch guys but they still hang on. So one day the kingpin says "you dawgs, its time to get this bitch crackin', feel free to charge whatever you wan't for this awesome drug. Hell I'll still pay you if you just give it away for free cause I'm such a nice guy and all... you dig?"
All the lil' thugs start planning how to earn money of this great drug and some try to just make an improved version that gets you more pixels during the trip while others just add a smiley face on a couple of bags and offer to sell them for just a buck. The junkies react variously to this, some people think its great that the drug dealers are so engaged and giving to the community so they gladly pay a dollar for that smiley face on the dope bag. Others just prefer to get it free, like they always has.
Time goes by and Mighty Lil' Gangstah gets a genius idea "Yo, why have I been a fool and giving this dope ass drug away for free? I'll just make mo of this better version and only sell that for mo money. Playah!". The top dealers are divided about the idea and some choose to go on with this new platform while others choose to go on with the same old drug dealing ways.
So what happens next? There's a slightly better version of a drug thats free being dealt for normal drug prices. The major dealers must have an exceptional market share if they where to pull of this brave stunt or else their piece of pie would be split among the dealers who currently is giving it away for free. But the big dealers don't have to sell as much as they gave away before in order to make the same amount of cash, they only need a part of the junkies to keep paying in order to stay in good shape.
So Major League Gaming oh I meant Mighty Lil' Gangstah loses its first place spot as a market leader and Dreamthug who's been making the drug better and giving the better version for free takes the number one spot and all of the sudden gets more people wanting the drug and all the cool rap artists wants to be the next smiley face on the dope bag that comes from Dreamthug so now Dreamthug gets cash from the Kingpin and these rappers making way more paper than MLG.
The End
Moral of the story: Unless one leauge has a majority of the market or some how all leagues go in to it together PPV won't be the most profitable solution for a single leauge since they will lose loads of viewers if there are free alternatives. Hell if we see Dreamhack, MLG, ESL and GSL merge into Global Major Dream eSports League we might have a real UFC thing going on.
I might be wrong but I see eSport as a whole new era of how we provide content and we shouldn't try to change the way we are progressing cause if we suddenly take a leap of faith we might destroy everything we worked for. I think in the long run, since the world is the audience - advertising with free content will be the way to go. And I don't mean that we shouldn't pay for shit, I just mean that the games should be free to watch. If you wanna sell extra content be my guest, hell that would probably be a way better solution oh wait, thats already happening.
TL;DR no need to change things, just keep on growing <3 xoxo
I'm surprised nobody's explicitly said it yet, although a few people have hinted at it (i.e. "I don't want to just watch Koreans"), but there's a very real racial factor going on here. Full disclosure: I am white.
Put quite simply, the foreign community has a lot of people who AREN'T Korean (or even asian), and want to see white/black/hispanic/whatever players doing well and winning at the highest level of competition. If it turns into a Korean vs Korean slugfest 100% of the time, many will gradually lose interest. Not everyone is a former BW fan who is used to watching the 'best foreigners' get constantly beat up by B-team Koreans.
Right now SC2 money is flowing primarily from non-Korean spectators into Korean pockets. I'm sorry, but the reality is that isn't sustainable (unless Korea themselves takes a liking to SC2 and keeps it afloat by themselves, which by all indications they won't).
We had this same 'problem' in BW, the foreign scene was mostly a joke and our foreign tournaments explicitly banned Koreans so that whitey could win from time to time. I never took it seriously or cared much about it, although of course I would cheer for Idra and Ret when they tried to break in. Difference in BW was that it was always by Koreans for Koreans, so lack of foreign support didn't matter. Us foreign BW fans have always just been happy to watch BW played at the highest level, a foreigner breaking in was a nice dream but not a necessity. On the other hand, SC2 is dead in the water without foreigners getting their act together.
So you can go on and on about business models and ESPORTS!!!!!, but at the end of the day whitey needs to step it up or you're finished. Foreign players have no decade-long headstart to blame for their failures this time, and the GSL bends over backwards to affirmative-action foreigners into the tournament with predictably hilarious results.
I don't think its a white vs asian thing. More of an underdog vs top dog thing. Koreans are clearly the top dogs and everyone likes rooting for the underdog.
Sure maybe your favorite player happens to be white but if you're rooting for him just because of his skin tone there might be something wrong with you.
It seems really stupid but when I see the CEO of MLG (Sundance DiGiovanni) on State of the Game answering the question : "What race do you play ?" says "Well, in Starcraft II I play as the marine" ?! I'm sorry but at that moment MLG loses all my support ..., I refuse to pay for a tournament where it's own CEO doesn't know the game / doesn't care about the game. At that point Sundance just lets everyone know that he's only there for the money. ($_$)
I'm sorry but if you take one answer to a question over what he has done for SC2 this year, you are clearly an ignorant person. Actions speak louder than words, and it is clear that he is committed to improving SC2 as an e-sport based on what has happened this past year and what is to come this year.
I'm not here to be critical about Sundance but face it, after one year we are still askings ourselves why MLG has extended series event when most of the progamers are against it since the beginning, prize pool went down, there are still complaints about the stream's lag or production quality and the cancelled all the show they had (Sotg, F*ck Slasher, ...etc). I don't think that Sundance is "against the growth" of starcraft obviously but I think that the way he is taking, which is the "business" way is a bad way to improve eSports. If you look at Facebook (the example was taking in this thread before) they have ad revenues and only know, after 6 years or so of existence they're going to go public.
I'll give you the extended series part, though I don't know what the pro-gamers actually think about it (is there a poll/article about that?) I personally don't like it, but that's besides the point.
-Stream lag? Well we know MLG Dallas was bad, but the events past that didn't suffer that much from stream lag as far as I know. If he is in it just for the money Sundance would be sure to make sure the stream is running smooth because bad stream = no money. -Production quality? Sure earlier MLGs had a lot of crowd shots and downtime, but look at the last couple of MLGs - quad "BETA" stream, filler content, etc. They have listened to our feedback. -Canceling stuff? Well in the end, MLG has to make money to survive, and part of that is refocusing on what's important. Note that SOTG was not canceled, but went back to being independent. -Prize pool went down? What are you smoking? Don't confuse the Arena prize pool with the Championship prize pool; combined, the total for all events is going to be higher in 2012 than in 2011. -Facebook? For every facebook that's out there, there's many more than failed. In between there are companies that have made it (but not blown up ala Google), those that are struggling, etc. Not everyone can be like facebook.
Look, I'm up for constructive criticism. But you cannot ignore the facts...
Imagine a drug kingpin sitting on a throne with his mighty swagger thinking about how he can get this new dope ass drug (called idraphine, naniweed, hukstacy or whatever) out on the market. So he gets a couple of drug dealers and tells them to give away a small dose to as many people as possible and he'll pay the dealers a small fee per guy who takes the drug. Now some of the dealers manage to find a huge audience Pimpin'Nine, Dreamthug, Great Swag Lamarr and Mighty Lil' Gangsta is giving this new drug away like its viagra in the common elderly home brothel.
However there are some drug dealers who doesn't show the same efficiency, mostly because a lot of people prefer the older drugs or really prefer the other more swagger looking drug dealers. Lil'Nassel and his gang is not up to par with the top notch guys but they still hang on. So one day the kingpin says "you dawgs, its time to get this bitch crackin', feel free to charge whatever you wan't for this awesome drug. Hell I'll still pay you if you just give it away for free cause I'm such a nice guy and all... you dig?"
All the lil' thugs start planning how to earn money of this great drug and some try to just make an improved version that gets you more pixels during the trip while others just add a smiley face on a couple of bags and offer to sell them for just a buck. The junkies react variously to this, some people think its great that the drug dealers are so engaged and giving to the community so they gladly pay a dollar for that smiley face on the dope bag. Others just prefer to get it free, like they always has.
Time goes by and Mighty Lil' Gangstah gets a genius idea "Yo, why have I been a fool and giving this dope ass drug away for free? I'll just make mo of this better version and only sell that for mo money. Playah!". The top dealers are divided about the idea and some choose to go on with this new platform while others choose to go on with the same old drug dealing ways.
So what happens next? There's a slightly better version of a drug thats free being dealt for normal drug prices. The major dealers must have an exceptional market share if they where to pull of this brave stunt or else their piece of pie would be split among the dealers who currently is giving it away for free. But the big dealers don't have to sell as much as they gave away before in order to make the same amount of cash, they only need a part of the junkies to keep paying in order to stay in good shape.
So Major League Gaming oh I meant Mighty Lil' Gangstah loses its first place spot as a market leader and Dreamthug who's been making the drug better and giving the better version for free takes the number one spot and all of the sudden gets more people wanting the drug and all the cool rap artists wants to be the next smiley face on the dope bag that comes from Dreamthug so now Dreamthug gets cash from the Kingpin and these rappers making way more paper than MLG.
The End
Moral of the story: Unless one leauge has a majority of the market or some how all leagues go in to it together PPV won't be the most profitable solution for a single leauge since they will lose loads of viewers if there are free alternatives. Hell if we see Dreamhack, MLG, ESL and GSL merge into Global Major Dream eSports League we might have a real UFC thing going on.
I might be wrong but I see eSport as a whole new era of how we provide content and we shouldn't try to change the way we are progressing cause if we suddenly take a leap of faith we might destroy everything we worked for. I think in the long run, since the world is the audience - advertising with free content will be the way to go. And I don't mean that we shouldn't pay for shit, I just mean that the games should be free to watch. If you wanna sell extra content be my guest, hell that would probably be a way better solution oh wait, thats already happening.
TL;DR no need to change things, just keep on growing <3 xoxo
Awesome post ! =D I want a bag of those Dreamthug smiley face bags ! ^^ This should be on the front page ! xD
On February 10 2012 09:14 OuchyDathurts wrote: I don't think its a white vs asian thing. More of an underdog vs top dog thing. Koreans are clearly the top dogs and everyone likes rooting for the underdog.
Sure maybe your favorite player happens to be white but if you're rooting for him just because of his skin tone there might be something wrong with you.
I don't think you fully read the post (I'm a goddamn BW fan, all my favorite players are Korean), but your response furthers my point. You just explicitly called Koreans the 'top dogs' vs non-Koreans, the 'underdogs'. Same thing, more politically correct wording.
Edit: And oh, in the extremely rare situations where a white guy is facing a Korean novice he is favored against, how many of you are rooting for the 'underdog'? That's what I thought.
On February 10 2012 09:14 OuchyDathurts wrote: I don't think its a white vs asian thing. More of an underdog vs top dog thing. Koreans are clearly the top dogs and everyone likes rooting for the underdog.
Sure maybe your favorite player happens to be white but if you're rooting for him just because of his skin tone there might be something wrong with you.
I don't think you fully read the post (I'm a goddamn BW fan, all my favorite players are Korean), but your response furthers my point. You just explicitly called Koreans the 'top dogs' vs non-Koreans, the 'underdogs'. Same thing, more politically correct wording.
But you're making it about "whitey". What if all the best players were from Germany? The skin color has nothing to do with it. It happens that the best players are from Korea. The best players of different genres come from different sections of the globe. If you want to be the best you have to beat the best. You seem to be using skin color as a gauge, I'm using a country.
I think the tournament models need to change in order to support better monetization. A traveling weekend marathon tournament is never going to be worth the cost or live up to the expected production value that we are would need for a ppv model. With the frequency of games we require to be satisfied, tournaments should look to spreading out their tournaments over time in a centralized location with a studio and charge viewers subscriptions. The gsl is really the model that needs to be implemented, not just for monetization but in terms of growing the quality of the scene.
If MLG had a studio, American teams would start establishing team houses in that area. A culture of esports would grow around that studio and the surrounding towns. Aspiring players would have a place to pack up and go to put it all on the line like idra did when he first moved to Korea. On a related note, I believe this needs to happen if foreigners want ti ever reach the level of skill Korea has achieved. Localization is very important.
tbh i wouldnt mind more ads as long as it's free. I know ads give much less money than just paying for it, but I'm personally willing to watch like MLG with 5x more ads. Maybe there could be two options. One is you just get the games on blue/red, and anything else (interviews, after game stuff, ceremony, etc) become ad time instead. Then, if you bought MLG tickets, you see those interviews and stuff and you don't get ads.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM.
Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong
Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket).
I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there.
I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol.
These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing)
But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else.
lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out.
LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point.
On February 10 2012 09:14 OuchyDathurts wrote: I don't think its a white vs asian thing. More of an underdog vs top dog thing. Koreans are clearly the top dogs and everyone likes rooting for the underdog.
Sure maybe your favorite player happens to be white but if you're rooting for him just because of his skin tone there might be something wrong with you.
I don't think you fully read the post (I'm a goddamn BW fan, all my favorite players are Korean), but your response furthers my point. You just explicitly called Koreans the 'top dogs' vs non-Koreans, the 'underdogs'. Same thing, more politically correct wording.
The skin color has nothing to do with it. It happens that the best players are from Korea.
I'm sorry, but that's so naive I don't know what to say. You also seem to be confusing what I think is the reality of the situation with what my personal opinion is. There is a general tendency in many people to want to see people who look like them do well. It's the reason why when a promising asian basketball player is up-and-coming, he gets a ton of support from the asian community. As a BW fan obviously I don't give a fuck, but read between the lines in some of the posts in this thread and you'll see that many people do. Think it over, I'll be back in an hour or so.
If they start charging then they should expect less viewers because most people won't pay for this kind of thing. UFC has a pay to watch model is because violence brings in viewers and these fights sometimes have big things happen in them like someone breaking there arm and that sort of thing. It's to early to start this kind of thing for SC2.
On February 10 2012 09:15 quantumslip wrote: ... refocusing on what's important. Note that SOTG was not canceled, but went back to being independent.
That's just another way of saying cancelling. Being "indepdent" just means MLG isn't paying anything related to SOTG which is the same as canceling the show and recreating another one.
On February 10 2012 09:15 quantumslip wrote:[spoiler] -Facebook? For every facebook that's out there, there's many more than failed. In between there are companies that have made it (but not blown up ala Google), those that are struggling, etc. Not everyone can be like facebook.
Trues but how do you want eSports to fail (not that I want this top happen ^^) :
1) - MLG and other events charge so much that slowly people get disinterested in overpriced content and change to other activities / hobbys ? The End.
or
2) - eSport monetizes too late in the process and not by punishing their customers for the free content and dies of it ? The End.
On February 10 2012 09:32 Vildhjarta wrote: I love to watch all the big tournies but if they charge for somewhat decent quality (such as 480) I just don't watch.
Agreed.
If it was 1080p+ with Day[9] and Tastosis casting Flash vs MMA Bo7 in Starcraft II for 100k $ I would begin considering to pay for streaming.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM.
Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong
Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket).
I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there.
I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol.
These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing)
But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else.
lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out.
LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point.
You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out .
If every major media in sc2 starts charging for subscriptions, viewers will have to start making choices, just gonna read between the lines here but this guy seems like he wants to have a big war with the higher end tournys so that his brand can get viewers in terms of layovers.It wont be rosy between ipl eg nasl even esl and mlg, they are all different brands.Not so sure esports is ready for this yet, when gotfrag went premium, that started being the downfall of that site. At this point i think more exposure and more time will potentially allow for this kind of process but going into subscription without a monopoly or a said agreement between all the major companies will just cause for chaos, if the companies really want this to go through they need to talk within themselves before they can say hey community help us, don`t rush into something until every rock has been turned and until you know it will be done right, we dont need more fuckups in esports, it takes a moment to have a dream, a bit longer for it to become reality!
On February 10 2012 09:14 OuchyDathurts wrote: I don't think its a white vs asian thing. More of an underdog vs top dog thing. Koreans are clearly the top dogs and everyone likes rooting for the underdog.
Sure maybe your favorite player happens to be white but if you're rooting for him just because of his skin tone there might be something wrong with you.
I don't think you fully read the post (I'm a goddamn BW fan, all my favorite players are Korean), but your response furthers my point. You just explicitly called Koreans the 'top dogs' vs non-Koreans, the 'underdogs'. Same thing, more politically correct wording.
The skin color has nothing to do with it. It happens that the best players are from Korea.
I'm sorry, but that's so naive I don't know what to say. You also seem to be confusing what I think is the reality of the situation with what my personal opinion is. There is a general tendency in many people to want to see people who look like them do well. It's the reason why when a promising asian basketball player is up-and-coming, he gets a ton of support from the asian community. As a BW fan obviously I don't give a fuck, but read between the lines in some of the posts in this thread and you'll see that many people do. Think it over, I'll be back in an hour or so.
I've never looked at an athlete (or actor or any celebrity for that matter) and though "God, I hope he does well since he looks like me!" I guess a lot of people have a lot of stupid reasons for liking who they like. I think liking someone purely based on their likeness to ones self is an incredibly shallow is stupid reason. My favorite player in the NFL is Ray Lewis, I'm certainly not a large, intimidating black man. I like him because he goes out there, leads his team, and plays the game the way I think it should be played. When he hits you you're going to know it.
I think there is something to liking "your team" if you come from a certain place. I'm from Minnesota so I'll always be a Vikings fan (as much as it pains me sometimes). You might like Idra because he's from America or Naniwa because he's Swedish. I don't really see anything wrong with that since its sort of rooting for the "home team" so to speak. But I certainly see something wrong with liking a player solely based on the color they shot out of the womb as. But, as I said, people have really stupid reasons for liking things sometimes.
PS: I know that Magic Johnson and Larry Bird saved the NBA, mostly because they were the best players at the time and it had the white vs black dichotomy. I just think that's a fucked reason to cheer for a player/team. HBO's documentary "Magic & Bird: A courtship of Rivals" is pretty awesome.
Hey this thread is very interesting I hope people in the industry continue to post about this. It made me think about a couple things so I want to ask about them
1) Are teams like EG sustainable and making money? Have sustainable tournaments is the most important thing but the teams are 2nd most important and how would a PPV model affect them? It would mean less people watching the tournaments (don't say everyone will buy they won't) so that means less exposure and ROI to team sponsors and teams depend on those sponsors getting a ROI right? Just make sure that the PPV model makes all parts sustainable not just tournaments.
2) Whats going on with the sustainability of the fighting game community right now? They have a bunch of LAN tournaments and free streams to watch those tournaments so are they also in a bubble or are they doing something right? Evo is a big one and it has lasted 10 years. They can't even really have a big online tournament so sc2 has an advantage there.
3) Can the tournaments cut costs if they all agree to do it at once so none of them look inferior? Would it be possible for them to all go to the true level they should be and become sustainable? Less prize money, don't pay a caster 20 000 for one event, simpler and cheap production to focus on just streaming the games and not looking super professional? (like a fighting game tournament)
Also the people who posted about agdq making 150 000 and that got me thinking that foreign tournaments should try copying what they did with donation incentives before going to PPV where they advertise on stream when we reach x amount of donations/subscriptions to the tournament you will get to see y. And just keep setting a bunch of new goals over the weekend.
Some incentives could be interviews, idra talking balance and bad players, showmatches, competitive or funday monday condition or custom game showmatches (sc2 broodwar for nostalgia money!) , bidding wars for which game to stream and who to cast it or who plays in the showmatches with what condition.
And then if someone donates more then x it counts as a subscription and they get HD and maybe even have more incentives like a chance for signed merchandise or stream shoutouts or player coaching lessons to people who pay even higher.
Seems like it would be neat.
Also blizzard should stopping hurting esports with the tournament fees they should be happy that someone wants to lose money advertising their game not make them lose even more and fail faster. They can change back if the tournaments ever do start making lots of money.
For myself its pretty simple, GSL provides as much content as I could ever watch given how limited my free time is and they provide easily accessible HQ VODs that are put up almost instantly. I pay for GSL because it offers a huge amount of quality entertainment for the price. If foreign tournaments want to charge like GSL does they'll need to offer a comparable experience. The few MLGs I've watched weren't even remotely close in quality (or quantity) and if I'm going to pay to watch the mostly B level players that MLG attracts then the overall production environment would need to be significantly better than what the GSL offers not worse.
Comparing MLG-UFC is a joke, you can't put yourself on par with a company that has over 500 employees. And puts on an event almost every week, with huge production value. Where as, the main reason I dont watch NASL GSL etc etc, is because they make you pay for the HD, or you get complete unwatchable shit. MLG, isn't nearly big enough to be charging anything w/o a free stream. They would lose so much in general.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM.
Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong
Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket).
I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there.
I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol.
These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing)
But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else.
lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out.
LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point.
You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out .
Who gives a shit? All those things don't influence my decision in the slightest.
When I'm faced with the decision whether or not to buy a product, I evaluate a lot of things. None of them, however, include how easy or difficult it is for the company to produce the product.
I'll buy stuff that I deem worth my dough, if you lack the means to produce shit worth my dough, tough luck.
In a previous post I said that I would spare you guys a Soviet Russia reference, but I believe some of you just don't understand what capitalism is about (hint: it's not fairness)
Jumping from page 1 to 29 is always an experience.....I believe lots of services (MLG/NASL) tried the "pay for resolution" strategy and no one cared enough to waste their money when the free streams were good enough. Watching good Starcraft isn't about the graphics-it's about the stories and strategies that the players/games tell. Offer premium services that people give a damn about and you'll get people to pay.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM.
Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong
Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket).
I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there.
I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol.
These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing)
But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else.
lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out.
LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point.
You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out .
Who gives a shit? All those things don't influence my decision in the slightest.
When I'm faced with the decision whether or not to buy a product, I evaluate a lot of things. None of them, however, include how easy or difficult it is for the company to produce the product.
I'll buy stuff that I deem worth my dough, if you lack the means to produce shit worth my dough, tough luck.
In a previous post I said that I would spare you guys a Soviet Russia reference, but I believe some of you just don't understand what capitalism is about (hint: it's not fairness)
This has strayed so far from the real topic.
No one cares what you spend your money on, or at least they shouldn't. The point is that in order for the larger scale tournaments to stick around, they will have to start charging a certain amount in some manner, because free play / ad revenue / sponsorships (and this has been confirmed by the industry guys in this thread) just don't cover the costs to operate. They operate at a loss.
So go ahead and don't spend your money, it's a free country. You aren't under any onus to support the esports industry. Just know that if that is the community concensus, these things will go away. To some people that's a big deal, to others it is not, and those are both fair opinions
Personally I really dig having IPL and MLG content, and I give them money because I want them to stick around. But that's my choice.
On February 10 2012 10:43 Alacast wrote: Jumping from page 1 to 29 is always an experience.....I believe lots of services (MLG/NASL) tried the "pay for resolution" strategy and no one cared enough to waste their money when the free streams were good enough. Watching good Starcraft isn't about the graphics-it's about the stories and strategies that the players/games tell. Offer premium services that people give a damn about and you'll get people to pay.
Yeah, that VVV guy has no clue what he's talking about. MLG, IPL, and IEM all charge for high quality streams plus extra content. Ad-supported free stream supplemented by subscription-based high quality stream is the way to go.
Esports is not at the point yet where we can get rid of free streams. If we ever reach the point where we get 1M+ free viewers consistently then yeah, we can look at pure PPV. But we're nowhere near that level yet.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM.
Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong
Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket).
I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there.
I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol.
These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing)
But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else.
lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out.
LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point.
You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out .
Who gives a shit? All those things don't influence my decision in the slightest.
When I'm faced with the decision whether or not to buy a product, I evaluate a lot of things. None of them, however, include how easy or difficult it is for the company to produce the product.
I'll buy stuff that I deem worth my dough, if you lack the means to produce shit worth my dough, tough luck.
In a previous post I said that I would spare you guys a Soviet Russia reference, but I believe some of you just don't understand what capitalism is about (hint: it's not fairness)
That's fine if you think professional SC2 in the west should die if it can't cut it in a capitalist world (because as you know, that's what will happen if the majority take your stance), but some of us want to pay to make it sustainable.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM.
Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong
Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket).
I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there.
I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol.
These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing)
But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else.
lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out.
LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point.
You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out .
Who gives a shit? All those things don't influence my decision in the slightest.
When I'm faced with the decision whether or not to buy a product, I evaluate a lot of things. None of them, however, include how easy or difficult it is for the company to produce the product.
I'll buy stuff that I deem worth my dough, if you lack the means to produce shit worth my dough, tough luck.
In a previous post I said that I would spare you guys a Soviet Russia reference, but I believe some of you just don't understand what capitalism is about (hint: it's not fairness)
That's fine if you think professional SC2 in the west should die if it can't cut it in a capitalist world (because as you know, that's what will happen if the majority take your stance), but some of us want to pay to make it sustainable.
Then congratulations, you're not running a business, you're running a charity.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM.
Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong
Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket).
I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there.
I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol.
These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing)
But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else.
lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out.
LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point.
You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out .
Who gives a shit? All those things don't influence my decision in the slightest.
When I'm faced with the decision whether or not to buy a product, I evaluate a lot of things. None of them, however, include how easy or difficult it is for the company to produce the product.
I'll buy stuff that I deem worth my dough, if you lack the means to produce shit worth my dough, tough luck.
In a previous post I said that I would spare you guys a Soviet Russia reference, but I believe some of you just don't understand what capitalism is about (hint: it's not fairness)
That's fine if you think professional SC2 in the west should die if it can't cut it in a capitalist world (because as you know, that's what will happen if the majority take your stance), but some of us want to pay to make it sustainable.
Then congratulations, you're not running a business, you're running a charity.
Funny how many people are in this thread purely to shit on the idea of paying for tournaments. If you're not interested in the discussion of how to make professional SC2 sustainable financially, there's really no point in posting in this thread.
On another note, you should look up the definition of the word charity. If you're paying a company for providing you a service, it's not charity .
ESports will never be pure PPV, that's just stupid. For something to be successful as PPV-only, you have to have a monopoly on the content and a cult-like following. And even then, it's not usually the right decision.
On February 10 2012 10:43 Alacast wrote: Jumping from page 1 to 29 is always an experience.....I believe lots of services (MLG/NASL) tried the "pay for resolution" strategy and no one cared enough to waste their money when the free streams were good enough. Watching good Starcraft isn't about the graphics-it's about the stories and strategies that the players/games tell. Offer premium services that people give a damn about and you'll get people to pay.
Absolutely. Too many people confuse "high quality stream" with "high resolution".
I gave IGN money for IPL3 because its worth it for the extra content. I could care less about resolution, which is why I haven't paid for NASL IEM MLG yet.
Although I am considering about paying for MLG now that they are offering extra streams. It depends upon how much they improve their production. And whether or not they get rid of that stupid extended series rule.
On February 10 2012 07:54 ReachTheSky wrote: [quote]
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM.
Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong
Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket).
I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there.
I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol.
These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing)
But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else.
lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out.
LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point.
You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out .
Who gives a shit? All those things don't influence my decision in the slightest.
When I'm faced with the decision whether or not to buy a product, I evaluate a lot of things. None of them, however, include how easy or difficult it is for the company to produce the product.
I'll buy stuff that I deem worth my dough, if you lack the means to produce shit worth my dough, tough luck.
In a previous post I said that I would spare you guys a Soviet Russia reference, but I believe some of you just don't understand what capitalism is about (hint: it's not fairness)
That's fine if you think professional SC2 in the west should die if it can't cut it in a capitalist world (because as you know, that's what will happen if the majority take your stance), but some of us want to pay to make it sustainable.
Then congratulations, you're not running a business, you're running a charity.
Funny how many people are in this thread purely to shit on the idea of paying for tournaments. If you're not interested in the discussion of how to make professional SC2 sustainable financially, there's really no point in posting in this thread.
On another note, you should look up the definition of the word charity. If you're paying a company for providing you a service, it's not charity .
I've already posted on this thread, and I've already stated that PPV tournament streams will cause a swift and unavoidable end to any tournament that isn't GSL and possibly MLG, and will stunt the growth of any fanbase you're trying to grow.
If you want to be profitable, especially if you're not the biggest tournament around, then you need free streams to draw in the crowds, and rely on well marketed and solid peripheral products and services that people want to pay for.
And as for the charity thing, have you not heard of bake sales? School fundraisers? Charity lotteries? If you're relying on the good will of people to make you money, instead of having goods and services that are worth paying for, then you're a business out for charity donations.
On February 10 2012 07:54 ReachTheSky wrote: [quote]
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM.
Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong
Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket).
I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there.
I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol.
These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing)
But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else.
lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out.
LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point.
You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out .
Who gives a shit? All those things don't influence my decision in the slightest.
When I'm faced with the decision whether or not to buy a product, I evaluate a lot of things. None of them, however, include how easy or difficult it is for the company to produce the product.
I'll buy stuff that I deem worth my dough, if you lack the means to produce shit worth my dough, tough luck.
In a previous post I said that I would spare you guys a Soviet Russia reference, but I believe some of you just don't understand what capitalism is about (hint: it's not fairness)
That's fine if you think professional SC2 in the west should die if it can't cut it in a capitalist world (because as you know, that's what will happen if the majority take your stance), but some of us want to pay to make it sustainable.
Then congratulations, you're not running a business, you're running a charity.
Funny how many people are in this thread purely to shit on the idea of paying for tournaments. If you're not interested in the discussion of how to make professional SC2 sustainable financially, there's really no point in posting in this thread.
On another note, you should look up the definition of the word charity. If you're paying a company for providing you a service, it's not charity .
"If you don't share my opinion, there's really no point in posting in this thread."
Seriously though, and in an honest attempt to save EEEEEEEEESPOOOOORRRTS from its doom.
It's fascinating, we live in a generation of unprecedented entitlement. The idea of "Free exchange of information" is talked about like it's the 11th amendment, when all it really means is "I'm used to getting shit for free, so anything that's contrary to that is nazi germany." One way or another, we'll have to get used to the idea that we have to pay for things we enjoy...
All I know is that if I have to pay for any streams or content, I won't be watching it. I don't pay for UFC, or anything else. I'll just check the results and be done with it.
On February 10 2012 11:08 SlimeBagly wrote: It's fascinating, we live in a generation of unprecedented entitlement. The idea of "Free exchange of information" is talked about like it's the 11th amendment, when all it really means is "I'm used to getting shit for free, so anything that's contrary to that is nazi germany." One way or another, we'll have to get used to the idea that we have to pay for things we enjoy...
One way or another companies will have to get used to the Idea that forcing overpriced sub par products down customers' throats expecting to turn a profit is the wrong way to run a business.
On February 10 2012 11:08 SlimeBagly wrote: It's fascinating, we live in a generation of unprecedented entitlement. The idea of "Free exchange of information" is talked about like it's the 11th amendment, when all it really means is "I'm used to getting shit for free, so anything that's contrary to that is nazi germany." One way or another, we'll have to get used to the idea that we have to pay for things we enjoy...
Bullshit. Tournaments have to accept that without free streams, they won't even exist.
Ask Everquest how it's doing as a P2P game. How about Lineage? The Old Republic? Guild Wars? Team Fortress 2? DotA? LoL?
Oh, right, every single one of those games are FREE TO PLAY because WoW completely, totally, and absolutely dominated the market of monthly payment games.
It's not entitlement to expect free streams from tournaments. It's common sense and basic business understanding that tells you that a PPV model funnels all the money to a select few organizations, and completely starves out the rest.
On February 10 2012 11:08 SlimeBagly wrote: It's fascinating, we live in a generation of unprecedented entitlement. The idea of "Free exchange of information" is talked about like it's the 11th amendment, when all it really means is "I'm used to getting shit for free, so anything that's contrary to that is nazi germany." One way or another, we'll have to get used to the idea that we have to pay for things we enjoy...
Bullshit. Tournaments have to accept that without free streams, they won't even exist.
Ask Everquest how it's doing as a P2P game. How about Lineage? The Old Republic? Guild Wars? Team Fortress 2? DotA? LoL?
Oh, right, every single one of those games are FREE TO PLAY because WoW completely, totally, and absolutely dominated the market of monthly payment games.
It's not entitlement to expect free streams from tournaments. It's common sense and basic business understanding that tells you that a PPV model funnels all the money to a select few organizations, and completely starves out the rest.
Umm, might want to get your facts straight. EQ was Pay to play for 13 years and laid down the groundwork for games to come and ToR certainly isn't free to play.
This is simply too narrow of a view of a very large topic. There are PPV boxing matches, but not every boxing match is PPV. As a matter of fact, the minority of all boxing matches are PPV, the very top echelon (plus opening bouts). There is tons of free UFC content as well, that particular industry appears to be very heavily dependent on PPV. That could actually be a threat to UFC, because if something went awry wit the PPV system, UFC would suffer greatly. Much like online poker did with certain laws that got passed in the US. I can't foresee anything of the sort, however there is a reason financial investors recommend to diversify your portfolio.
Point is, there is room for PPV like events, like what GOM and GSL are doing, but it's a bit early to do too much of it. These companies need to invest some of their own money (which is a risk), into a growing industry. If it grows, they will have already established themselves as a major brand name and will be able to offer more pay-for services. Anyone trying to get in on the action when the scene "booms" would struggle for recognition. This is the investment these groups must make.
Example was NASL season 1 tried to monetize too fast for services most people were not ready to pay for, especially from a group that has not proven itself to the community in general. We are accepting of GOMTV doing almost the exact same thing because of the consistent level of game and production quality. Eventually, GOM will be able to hold specific events which are exclusively PPV, however they will have to provide a free stream for their main shows for quite some time. Groups like MLG and IPL (maybe IEM too) are still miles behind, everyone else is not even in the same galaxy.
tl;dr Free streams are necessary investment for any organization who wants to break into the scene and will always be a staple of eSports. There is room for PPV content with time.
On February 10 2012 11:08 SlimeBagly wrote: It's fascinating, we live in a generation of unprecedented entitlement. The idea of "Free exchange of information" is talked about like it's the 11th amendment, when all it really means is "I'm used to getting shit for free, so anything that's contrary to that is nazi germany." One way or another, we'll have to get used to the idea that we have to pay for things we enjoy...
Bullshit. Tournaments have to accept that without free streams, they won't even exist.
Ask Everquest how it's doing as a P2P game. How about Lineage? The Old Republic? Guild Wars? Team Fortress 2? DotA? LoL?
Oh, right, every single one of those games are FREE TO PLAY because WoW completely, totally, and absolutely dominated the market of monthly payment games.
It's not entitlement to expect free streams from tournaments. It's common sense and basic business understanding that tells you that a PPV model funnels all the money to a select few organizations, and completely starves out the rest.
Umm, might want to get your facts straight. EQ was Pay to play for 13 years and laid down the groundwork for games to come and ToR certainly isn't free to play.
Yeah, EQ was Pay to play for 13 years because it was a major power in the industry. Then it wasn't. And now it's F2P. Just like I said - money funnelled to the top players. If you didn't remember, in that same 13 years, there were a hundred big monthly payment games that died because no one was interested in paying for them instead of better alternatives.
And yeah, I was wrong about ToR. Early reports said it would be F2P, I guess they decided on monthly fees.
On February 10 2012 11:08 SlimeBagly wrote: It's fascinating, we live in a generation of unprecedented entitlement. The idea of "Free exchange of information" is talked about like it's the 11th amendment, when all it really means is "I'm used to getting shit for free, so anything that's contrary to that is nazi germany." One way or another, we'll have to get used to the idea that we have to pay for things we enjoy...
Bullshit. Tournaments have to accept that without free streams, they won't even exist.
Ask Everquest how it's doing as a P2P game. How about Lineage? The Old Republic? Guild Wars? Team Fortress 2? DotA? LoL?
Oh, right, every single one of those games are FREE TO PLAY because WoW completely, totally, and absolutely dominated the market of monthly payment games.
It's not entitlement to expect free streams from tournaments. It's common sense and basic business understanding that tells you that a PPV model funnels all the money to a select few organizations, and completely starves out the rest.
Guild Wars needs to be bought and was always intended to not have a monthly sub. Everquest was pay to play for 12? years. TOR is pay to play and has a store price just like EQ. TF2/DotA/LoL aren't MMO games (and have completely different business models, and DotA is a WC3 custom game, it has no revenue besides donations.... DotA 2 is in beta and currently has no revenue generation).
Also, what does any of this have to do with streaming Starcraft games?
I would rather watch a player streaming for free with some ads, than mid or even higher tier tournament that I would have to pay for.
I've never paid for GSL (nor do I watch it, except for a few free games), and I never plan to. I watch starcraft because it is free and I don't pay for any tv. If I had to pay, I wouldn't watch the pay per view stuff, and just stick to the free stuff until it disappeared or turned to absolute garbage. Then I'd move on to something else.
Edit: I listen to the rant. That guy is an idiot. Why is he talking about how much money he makes? How is that relevant? He has a few good points, but it is diluted by the rest of the random crap that comes out of his fat face. He thinks Huk and Idra are the pinnacle of sc2 play? What? I wouldn't take anything this guy says seriously. Was entertaining, though.
I never did and i never will pay for tournament stream unless game will reach undisputable high quality level.
In MMA you can see dedication and smart strategy in every step of preparation, training of various skills, balancing between weight lifting, conditioning, stamina and technical skills. They have to watch diet, nutrition, training schedule, they have to work on weak skillsets or strategy to force opponent into fight they excel in.
What you get in SC2 games ? Generic games, you see casters being bored 2 hours into tournament watching same games over and over again .. u hear casters talking about random bullshit just to cover up the fact that in next 8 minutes there will be nothink interesting happening.
You watch this generation of BW and WC3 semi-pros and their fans and supporters, you almost never get to witness new rising star. Community is too low in raw numbers due to Blizzard greedy policies which killed it before it even managed to rise. U can watch Blizzard charging tournaments, refusing to listen to his customers, forcing them to play on b.net 0.2 and asking them "do you really want lan"?.
Why i watch games with such negative attitude ? Because i like to use SC2 as negative energy sink and you need to keep up with the metagame or at least new maps to compete.
Overall SC2 is generic, non tactical non strategical decision tree loop. Tournaments are commented using hyperbolic or plain random gibberish statements just to keep illusion of interest about game ... would i pay for it ?? Hell no.
Ads are not going to be viable long term. Advertisers will figure out that these viewers without money to pay for a $20 subscription for a stream don't have money for whatever they are selling either. Advertisers could drive down CPM right now because everyone who has a stream can only make money off the Ads. Ads in and of themselves are not going to be sufficient to build a business. The audience has little disposable income, that seems the key problem to me. Afaik no team from a team sponsor/team owner perspective is profitable.
I think this situation would explain itself if someone could explain why the super popular game supported by people all over the world has a worse quality stream than the dying game watched only by people from a tiny east asian country.
The one thing this market has going for it is it has a unified fan base, and for the most part, majority of the rts players. I can understand companies wanting to turn a profit and make money but at the same time breaking the community into subcategories is not the way to go. IF the companies are serious they will do something as big as wow subscription and do all the major tournaments online pass, where u get to watch all the content, tournies in na and eu for a price and all of those companies get a piece of the subscription while allowing free stream, otherwise it will just be a huge fail, i just simply dont see every person subscribing for every tourny every month, u will lose overall viewers and at this point with games like lol and dota2 coming up with huge numbers, starcraft 2 really cannot afford to be divided!
The most overused word on the internet at the moment seems to be 'entitlement' with people clamoring to tell everyone why they should expect less and less and be happy about it. It dawns on me that maybe e-sports organisations aren't entitled to any more profit per viewer than they're currently getting.
Try it, don't provide a free stream to your event and see what happens. Monetise everything to squeeze the last red cent from the viewers. If it falls flat on its face, well, theres already a system thats proven to work and if that doesn't generate enough profit for your liking, leave the industry. No one will care. If it works, you have your answer.
On February 10 2012 09:05 Hinanawi wrote: I'm surprised nobody's explicitly said it yet, although a few people have hinted at it (i.e. "I don't want to just watch Koreans"), but there's a very real racial factor going on here. Full disclosure: I am white.
Put quite simply, the foreign community has a lot of people who AREN'T Korean (or even asian), and want to see white/black/hispanic/whatever players doing well and winning at the highest level of competition. If it turns into a Korean vs Korean slugfest 100% of the time, many will gradually lose interest. Not everyone is a former BW fan who is used to watching the 'best foreigners' get constantly beat up by B-team Koreans.
Right now SC2 money is flowing primarily from non-Korean spectators into Korean pockets. I'm sorry, but the reality is that isn't sustainable (unless Korea themselves takes a liking to SC2 and keeps it afloat by themselves, which by all indications they won't).
We had this same 'problem' in BW, the foreign scene was mostly a joke and our foreign tournaments explicitly banned Koreans so that whitey could win from time to time. I never took it seriously or cared much about it, although of course I would cheer for Idra and Ret when they tried to break in. Difference in BW was that it was always by Koreans for Koreans, so lack of foreign support didn't matter. Us foreign BW fans have always just been happy to watch BW played at the highest level, a foreigner breaking in was a nice dream but not a necessity. On the other hand, SC2 is dead in the water without foreigners getting their act together.
So you can go on and on about business models and ESPORTS!!!!!, but at the end of the day whitey needs to step it up or you're finished. Foreign players have no decade-long headstart to blame for their failures this time, and the GSL bends over backwards to affirmative-action foreigners into the tournament with predictably hilarious results.
Same goes for cars, electronics etc etc. It goes from West's pockets to the Orient. (most) People buy value not race.
GSL will be just fine, as if you need anymore proof as they are the only ones who can command a premium.
On February 10 2012 07:59 xSixGeneralHan wrote: [quote]
Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong
Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket).
I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there.
I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol.
These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing)
But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else.
lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out.
LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point.
You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out .
Who gives a shit? All those things don't influence my decision in the slightest.
When I'm faced with the decision whether or not to buy a product, I evaluate a lot of things. None of them, however, include how easy or difficult it is for the company to produce the product.
I'll buy stuff that I deem worth my dough, if you lack the means to produce shit worth my dough, tough luck.
In a previous post I said that I would spare you guys a Soviet Russia reference, but I believe some of you just don't understand what capitalism is about (hint: it's not fairness)
That's fine if you think professional SC2 in the west should die if it can't cut it in a capitalist world (because as you know, that's what will happen if the majority take your stance), but some of us want to pay to make it sustainable.
Then congratulations, you're not running a business, you're running a charity.
Funny how many people are in this thread purely to shit on the idea of paying for tournaments. If you're not interested in the discussion of how to make professional SC2 sustainable financially, there's really no point in posting in this thread.
On another note, you should look up the definition of the word charity. If you're paying a company for providing you a service, it's not charity .
I've already posted on this thread, and I've already stated that PPV tournament streams will cause a swift and unavoidable end to any tournament that isn't GSL and possibly MLG, and will stunt the growth of any fanbase you're trying to grow.
If you want to be profitable, especially if you're not the biggest tournament around, then you need free streams to draw in the crowds, and rely on well marketed and solid peripheral products and services that people want to pay for.
And as for the charity thing, have you not heard of bake sales? School fundraisers? Charity lotteries? If you're relying on the good will of people to make you money, instead of having goods and services that are worth paying for, then you're a business out for charity donations.
Why are you trying to tell us what the best business model for SC2 is despite the fact that 1) you have no experience in the industry and 2) industry insiders have already been in this thread telling us that the free stream model isn't profitable? And you're still not understanding what charity means lol, nice attempt at saving face though. Your contention that tournament streams in their current form offer zero value and aren't worth a dime of our money is silly and just screams out "I feel entitled to whatever I want."
Just thought I'd share my views as someone who watches alot of starcraft:
Foreign stuff just isn't good enough to justify paying for the stream yet. What I mean by this is the actual games, I think the casting and other stuff is great. The games over the past few days with parting, drg, and genius have been amazing games and i felt that they justified my subscription completely. When I watch MLG or NASL or anything else the matches just arent that great to watch. There's just no excitement or suspense or anything like that. Foreigners need to get better before i'm even going to want to see vods of their tournaments.
On February 10 2012 11:54 Elwar wrote: Simple answer is try it out and see what happens.
The most overused word on the internet at the moment seems to be 'entitlement' with people clamoring to tell everyone why they should expect less and less and be happy about it. It dawns on me that maybe e-sports organisations aren't entitled to any more profit per viewer than they're currently getting.
Try it, don't provide a free stream to your event and see what happens. Monetise everything to squeeze the last red cent from the viewers. If it falls flat on its face, well, theres already a system thats proven to work and if that doesn't generate enough profit for your liking, leave the industry. No one will care. If it works, you have your answer.
Hehe exactly. You are only entiled to what people will pay for you service. If not enough people pay time to GTFO. 90% of business fail why should SC2 business be any differnt? Talk about entilement, That slack jawed idiot has it.
Pay per vieuw or letting people pay to watch high quality streams is a terrible road to go. The majority of the people will not pay as there are plenty alternatives wich are free, and it will end up turning away people from the paid streams/tournaments. You will get a relativly verry small fee from the ones who will pay to compensate for this huge loss of audience.
Monetarising starcraft has to come from using the popularity of starcraft to do other promotions, not from direct payments of vieuwers. Vieuwers already contribute enough by simply watching and paying attention. Do people pay to watch the olympics, do people have to pay to watch championship soccer on tv, do people have to pay to watch wimbledon on tv? NO NO and NO, the only sport people pay for (sometimes) to watch on tv is national league soccer (champonship matches are free in my country, selling the adds makes enough apearently) Just the idea that people can start paying to watch streams is imo completely rediculous.
(am not saying this because i like watching streams for free, wich i do lol, i do realy think this is a silly idea seeing its not that common in other sports either)
At below: yes adds is the way to go, do you realy think a significant amount of people is willing to pay for tournament streams? There is no reason to believe to, tons of other sports do it this way (adds around the tournament) verry few sports rely on the payments of the audienceo, just look at tennis, athletics, swimming cycling. it realy is a weird idea imo wich has verry few succesfull percedents.
This thread is also fairly illuminating in showing the maturity of the starcraft 2 demographic. The idea that companies can just make more and more ads and this will cover everything is ludicrous at worst and naive at best. I stand by the idea that foreign tournies aren't worth it yet but if they ever do get as good as GSL they should have a subsciption and people should buy it. I'm sorry, you can make excuses all day long about how tv is free(its not) or how immoral it is to charge subs or how it's HURTING e-sports, but at the end of the day 90% of people who say "lol im a poor college student" are actually just bad at managing money and probably spending that $30 on weed or fast food or steam.
On February 10 2012 11:08 SlimeBagly wrote: It's fascinating, we live in a generation of unprecedented entitlement. The idea of "Free exchange of information" is talked about like it's the 11th amendment, when all it really means is "I'm used to getting shit for free, so anything that's contrary to that is nazi germany." One way or another, we'll have to get used to the idea that we have to pay for things we enjoy...
Bullshit. Tournaments have to accept that without free streams, they won't even exist.
Ask Everquest how it's doing as a P2P game. How about Lineage? The Old Republic? Guild Wars? Team Fortress 2? DotA? LoL?
Oh, right, every single one of those games are FREE TO PLAY because WoW completely, totally, and absolutely dominated the market of monthly payment games.
It's not entitlement to expect free streams from tournaments. It's common sense and basic business understanding that tells you that a PPV model funnels all the money to a select few organizations, and completely starves out the rest.
Guild Wars needs to be bought and was always intended to not have a monthly sub. Everquest was pay to play for 12? years. TOR is pay to play and has a store price just like EQ. TF2/DotA/LoL aren't MMO games (and have completely different business models, and DotA is a WC3 custom game, it has no revenue besides donations.... DotA 2 is in beta and currently has no revenue generation).
Also, what does any of this have to do with streaming Starcraft games?
Guild Wars was created by ex-Blizzard employees who were intentionally forcing a different business model than WoW's in order to compete. EQ was P2Play for more than a decade because it was the top dog, and then it became F2P because that was more profitable for the lesser games.
As I said earlier, I was mistaken about TOR, I'd heard they were going F2P - most other new MMOs are starting F2P regardless. DotA was a typo, because I can't for the life of me remember the names of the other clones.
And it relates to streaming Starcraft games because the business principles are exactly the same. The top dogs, meaning GSL, WoW, UFC, WWE, etc. all have captive audiences. They can afford a PPV pay-wall business model because if/when people are going to pay to see the product, they want the top product.
Meanwhile, the lesser players, who don't have the luxury of being the best choice, compete much better by using their free product to expand their user/viewer base at a much more rapid rate, then using peripheral "bonus" products to generate higher profits than an exclusive, walled business model would generate.
The basics of a paywall is that you're cannibalizing your current viewership in an attempt to increase the profit per viewer, something that obviously only works if you can convert enough viewers into subscribers. More often than not, and basically in every attempt from internet businesses, the net result is a loss in revenue.
It's been monetized ad naseum already. Anyone heard gskill or pepsi mentioned recently? Also I think you could watch free content 24/7 and still not have time to watch it all. Btw does anyone with internet pay to watch UFC? Unless it's completely ad free I would never pay to watch anything.
The sickest thing ever is american ice hockey, where they stop the game just to show more comercials. Imagine NesTea vs MVP paused mid battle and a diaper comercial popping up ^^
Ps. Advertising is brainwashing and should be illegal. Atleast 90% of the population is completely defenceless against it.
On February 10 2012 12:14 ReVox wrote: This thread is also fairly illuminating in showing the maturity of the starcraft 2 demographic. The idea that companies can just make more and more ads and this will cover everything is ludicrous at worst and naive at best. I stand by the idea that foreign tournies aren't worth it yet but if they ever do get as good as GSL they should have a subsciption and people should buy it. I'm sorry, you can make excuses all day long about how tv is free(its not) or how immoral it is to charge subs or how it's HURTING e-sports, but at the end of the day 90% of people who say "lol im a poor college student" are actually just bad at managing money and probably spending that $30 on weed or fast food or steam.
They still have the issue of children (foreigners) fighting adults (koreans) or just children fighting children. sorry but a boxing or MMA match never sold with such disparities. Peoplr tend to want to watch the best vs the best.
I blew $3000 at Planet Hollywood casino last friday but would never pay to see blowouts.
As someone who was starting to get into SC2 E-sports, in my opinion it's dead. Nothing worth watching for free any more, how can it grow if there isn't open free links in common areas for people new to the genera to get excited about it. This is all compounded by the fact that starcraft 2 is getting a bit old at this point. Can't wait for the expansion, I wont be buying it, but i do plan on watching some streams when it comes out. Watching new games these days just feel like reruns.
On February 10 2012 12:18 crazyfingers wrote: As someone who was starting to get into SC2 E-sports, in my opinion it's dead. Nothing worth watching for free any more, how can it grow if there isn't open free links in common areas for people new to the genera to get excited about it. This is all compounded by the fact that starcraft 2 is getting a bit old at this point. Can't wait for the expansion, I wont be buying it, but i do plan on watching some streams when it comes out. Watching new games these days just feel like reruns.
It's far from old. BW is still watched an that came out over a decade ago. So SC2 is far from dying I mean at IEM Kiev I remember seeing 60k people watching the stream so you're completely wrong about it dying nothing could be further from the truth. Plus E-Sports as a whole is only growing I mean the same amount of people were watching the LoL stream at the same tournament an IdrA gets between 5-16k viewers on his stream when he streams an thats not even a tournament. So as I've already stated SC2 is far from dead an only gaining momentum.
I'm happy to pay for the GSL and MLG and occasionally throw a couple of bucks at smaller tourneys like HomeStory. I'm also older than average and have a job. If I didn't play, though, I doubt I'd pay for my son to watch.
I don't envy the guys trying to make it in this business now. They need some revenue, but esports really needs serious growth. SC2 is the best to watch, but it really doesn't have a huge player base. I'm hoping somebody in the casting/tournament community starts figuring out how to cast the games so that they can be enjoyed by casual or non-players.
When we watched some of the Super Bowl, we noticed the casters aren't trying to teach us to play football. They are explaining what's going on in the game, and why the players might make the decisions they do and a lot more about the players themselves. That helps the viewer to understand the game, but if you want the illusion you could be playing it, you have to bring that yourself.
SC2 is different because I love that I can alt-tab over and play when I'm geeked up after a great match. But it's currently hard to get non-players excited to watch MLG or GSL with you. Try it and you'll see that you spend most of your time explaining who MC or Naniwa are and where they come from (and what they've won) and very little about the technical differences between a 1-gas and 2-gas 4-gate.
On February 09 2012 14:56 bustanut wrote: Personally, I would never pay for high quality content, unless it's the GSL.
If I only got 480p and such for free, I'd only tune into the matches I really wanted to see.
Well, this pretty much says it all. Seeing as the only tournament that really matters is the GSL (haters gonna hate, but the truth is the truth), it makes no sense paying to watch any other tournament. The global standard IS the GSL, whether some like it or not, so yeah, that's pretty much it.
On February 10 2012 12:14 ReVox wrote: This thread is also fairly illuminating in showing the maturity of the starcraft 2 demographic. The idea that companies can just make more and more ads and this will cover everything is ludicrous at worst and naive at best. I stand by the idea that foreign tournies aren't worth it yet but if they ever do get as good as GSL they should have a subsciption and people should buy it. I'm sorry, you can make excuses all day long about how tv is free(its not) or how immoral it is to charge subs or how it's HURTING e-sports, but at the end of the day 90% of people who say "lol im a poor college student" are actually just bad at managing money and probably spending that $30 on weed or fast food or steam.
Hahaha, earlier I was gonna make the point about college kids buying weed and other things, but I didn't go there. Glad you did.
On February 09 2012 15:30 KingOfAmerica wrote: The community absolutely needs to make at least a moderate cultural shift in their willingness to vote with their dollars. If you want high quality professional gaming organizations, they need income. Teams and leagues are not government subsidized, they are businesses.
I couldn't agree more with this. The e-sports community is generally aged very young, and because of that we have a culture with lower expectations of professionalism from a business perspective. I feel like young people are less inclined to pay for content because they don't understand the business plan behind professional athleticism and aren't willing to pay to see great players because of their disillusion.
I think that young folks in the SC community are simply too content with the content they are recieving already because they don't value professionalism. Don't you just hate it when you introduce Starcraft to some friends who can't help but laugh at it and just think it's a farce of an industry? The reason is because there is no MONEY behind it. Nobody takes this shit seriously because the industry is founded on gaming culture -- a culture composed of mainly kids -- who are unwilling to fork up small sums of money for something they love.
I, myself, love gaming and starcraft II. I would happily pay for (and I'm not going to discuss pricing because that can be appropriately be discussed somewhere else) streams of professional starcraft II if they were treated with the professionalism they deserve. By this I mean everybody should have to pay to watch the top pros play games. If we don't set the bar for the standard of business in this industry, then it won't become a profitable industry.
Honestly answer youself this question: If my favourite SC2 pro began to charge for his stream, would I pay to watch it? If Huk, the most popular Canadian SC2 pro were charging $2.99 a month for his streaming, would you just cut him off completely because he charges to make a living off of doing something he loves? If you were in the same position you would realize how much better the community would benefit from one another if we just charged people to watch us -- it brings a whole new level of professionalism to the table because now we can justifiably say that we make money off of playing Starcraft without having to rely on shitty methods of profit such as advertising. If people want to watch, they should pay for it. esports needs a larger pool of money to be able to grow from, and advertising doesn't cut it
Gamers need to invest in their passions rather than hope that popularity circulates it. Not investing in this industry will only let it sit and stagnate in a pool of immature and adolescent young adults who use popularity and advertising as a part of their poorly thought out business plan. I think people should be more willing to spend money in e-sports.
I think that the argument which highlights advertising as the main priority of profititability is possible only when the target audience has vast population of viewers like we see on facebook or google, for example. Starcraft II, and esports in general, is not big enough to support itself by advertisement because there simply are not enough viewers for it to allow it to flourish into a successful business. A populated industry needs to be established. MONEY needs to be injected into that industry for it to be able to takeoff, and at this point in time advertising simply doesn't compare to subscription.
TL;DR I feel like the conflict here is divided between the people who want to make gaming a more reputable sport and the people who want just want to be able to watch Starcraft the way they have been for over a decade now.
I currently pay for gsl, but only because there is a very reasonable annual ticket that I know will give me access to more content than I have time to watch, and I know it will always be the best players in the world.
I love the atmosphere of mlg though, but it's like a cool thing to watch live. It's not like gsl where you watch a few vods every day, over a long period of time. I don't really watch mlg vods even if I missed an event, because it's just too overwhelming to catch up on that many games in a short period of time. If i have the time to watch mlg live as it's happening, it's really awesome, but it's not something I feel like I'd pay for like gsl.
I bought NASL season 1 based on the same logic but haven't bought a season since just because FUCK I just don't have time, I have to prioritize, and GSL is just the better league to watch.
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I think there's this perception that companies are making money, but I doubt they are.
It's a tough spot. Monetize and people revolt and you die. Don't monetize and you slowly drown. I don't know how it's going to work. Maybe you have to completely level up the broadcast to a completely different place where people expect to pay for that quality? No idea.
Edit: No one seems to treat this as a business. There's a feeling things should be free because they want it to grow. Until we get past that and make it a business, it'll never be more than a niche market, which is fine, but it is what it is.
You're missing the more likely result of complete monetization: The top league becomes filthy rich, and the rest die entirely, reduced to small audiences and "indy league" quality, just like the situation with Professional Wrestling and MMA. And this isn't a what-if scenario, it's the one that exists in SC2 right now.
The GSL is the league, and there is absolutely no argument about that. Viewers can't and won't pay for every tournament, so they are going to be selective about their money, and more often than not, the GSL is going to be the one to get that revenue. In other words, if tournaments like IPL, NASL, MLG, etc. don't stream for free, then they will probably vanish into obscurity.
I think the biggest issue is the mentality that free streams are a "charity model" as you put it, which couldn't be further from the truth. Look at the MMORPG scene, for instance. WoW is the only Pay-to-Play game left, and it dominates everything. How did ever other game remain relevant and profitable? By removing subscriptions entirely, making access to the game 100% free, and then charging for peripherals...and more often than not, that made them even more profitable than before.
I couldn't possibly say what would be smart marketing tactics, or how these tournaments could generate revenue. But I can, and will, say with certainty, that a pay-to-watch business model will only benefit the top-tier organizations, and would be the swiftest way to kill off the ones that aren't on top.
Thank you! Best shit I've read along the complete drivel of posts in this thread.
that's capitalism, friend. any competitive business works around this model, just like in any professional sports league. When you say that the top league becomes rich and the small leagues die entirely, that could easily be compared to any other athletic.
Myself living in Canada, I know a number of semi-professional hockey players who are in league below NHL, OHL, AHL, who have contracts and are paid to play.
On February 10 2012 12:59 Carbonthief wrote: I currently pay for gsl, but only because there is a very reasonable annual ticket that I know will give me access to more content than I have time to watch, and I know it will always be the best players in the world.
I love the atmosphere of mlg though, but it's like a cool thing to watch live. It's not like gsl where you watch a few vods every day, over a long period of time. I don't really watch mlg vods even if I missed an event, because it's just too overwhelming to catch up on that many games in a short period of time. If i have the time to watch mlg live as it's happening, it's really awesome, but it's not something I feel like I'd pay for like gsl.
I bought NASL season 1 based on the same logic but haven't bought a season since just because FUCK I just don't have time, I have to prioritize, and GSL is just the better league to watch.
You hit the nail right on the head. The GSL is generally considered the best tournament in the world and no one can afford (time/money) to keep up with every single tournament (MLG/IPL/NASL/ESV/IEM) plus all the other stuff going on. There is probably only room for one or two international (NA/EU) tournament providers who can actually capture enough of a market be financially sound.
Who wins that race will be determined by a ton of factors: capital, experience, advertisement, brand-name, players, casters, live events, etc, etc... I think once one or two tournament organizers establish themselves as being heads and tails above the rest, they can begin thinking about some sort of paid service. Resolution bonuses are lame, dual streams are decent, but the SC2 community craves information; giving viewers PAID access to exclusive interviews/commentary/replays will be more successful than access to vods or high resolution and can entice people to actually pay for quality content.
Once someone finds those niche incentives, they'll make money. Other organizers can offer unique casters/events/giveaways supported by sponsors to maintain viewership, but it's absolutely absurd to assume that as many independent organizations that SC2 is a part of can ALL make money with a paid-viewership model.
Despite how much I've advocated for paying for tournaments in this thread, I will admit that it's much easier to pay for GSL than any other league. It's just the best quality games by far, and it's where you're watching the cutting edge of Starcraft, including metagame development and the like. Personally I think MLG should become the gold standard in North American and Dreamhack in Europe. I think it would be a good thing if the scene consolidated into those three big tournaments, with small online weekly/daily tournies still going on. That way more money could be funneled towards the big 3 and you'd just have less to focus on as a viewer. I think it's pretty undeniable that the market is oversaturated right now. And I a perfectly willing to pay for the big 3.
Seems like SC2 is already monetized? I definitely can't watch much SC2 without getting commercials or paying to remove them. Both make whoever is streaming money...
And about paying for higher quality streams... It might happen. I'll never pay for it. That's just not really how things work on the internet though, at least that's how I feel (I don't really do much on the internet besides FB and TL). If you start charging for something that was free, people are going to pirate it. GL to vVv's President though, he seems to believe in what he's doing. I mean.... His team's no EG in terms of players or fan base, but... His ideas must be right... Right?
On February 10 2012 11:24 sluggaslamoo wrote: OSL and MSL are free to view, even to attend live its free.
They just need advertisements.
But that's impossible! The very idea that an e-sports league could survive on advertisements alone is ludicrious! The scene will surely die if high quality starcraft is easily accessible to new viewers!
I can't see myself ever paying to watch Starcraft at home. I've never seen more than the first match of any GSL series. If they want to make money off of it then do more big live lan events and bring the sponsors in there. Sell T-shirts. Sell nachos. Make a big show of it. Spread eSports competition to more people: have your big main even tournament, but have several other tournaments running as well. an open tournament for the locals of the area at each league level. Or break them up by age groups like any other youth sport would do. The more people you get competing, the more people you can then sell nachos to once they've lost. And kids that play will have their parrents there that will have to buy them a T-shirt for WhiteRa to sign. There's money to be made.
Also, if more schools created starcraft teams (beyond what few college teams there are) there could be all kinds of live lan tournament potential. NCAA SC2 anyone?
On February 10 2012 13:56 J_Slim wrote: I can't see myself ever paying to watch Starcraft at home. I've never seen more than the first match of any GSL series. If they want to make money off of it then do more big live lan events and bring the sponsors in there. Sell T-shirts. Sell nachos. Make a big show of it. Spread eSports competition to more people: have your big main even tournament, but have several other tournaments running as well. an open tournament for the locals of the area at each league level. Or break them up by age groups like any other youth sport would do. The more people you get competing, the more people you can then sell nachos to once they've lost. And kids that play will have their parrents there that will have to buy them a T-shirt for WhiteRa to sign. There's money to be made.
Also, if more schools created starcraft teams (beyond what few college teams there are) there could be all kinds of live lan tournament potential. NCAA SC2 anyone?
At the end of the day I feel the biggest obstacle to events and tournaments is in fact player streams Starcraft is not a team game so unlike NFL or NBA we can all sit down at almost anytime and watch one of our favorite players playing games they might not be super secret GSL builds but its Starcraft and I would rather watch 3 hours of just Huk, than try to watch 3 hours of an off night for an on line event with a bunch of bad players rolling over worse players.
To tell the truth I actually dont like MLGs and Dream Hack (Home story cup being the exception) because it means for a week I don't get to watch Huk stream I instead trade that for maybe 20 games at a tournaments, and maybe 2/3 of them even get casted so I have to watch a vod.
In league of legends there is only one big tournaments IEM, and its casted by riot emploeies and they do a horrid job. So all pro level content is brought to people from the players streams instead of watching a team league you watch two teams scrim and the end result is the best streamers making more money then starcraft pros even tho they have no sponsership salaries or huge prize pools for weekly events. LoL players actually lose money when they travel to events even if they get 2nd place in the event because they all make so much from streaming.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM.
Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong
Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket).
I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there.
I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol.
These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing)
But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else.
lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out.
LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point.
You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out .
Again, kids need to learn to read. If you think that being able to see someone's kitchen/den behind them professional while they cast then you're what i like to call clueless on whats professional/acceptable. I'll say it again, i'm not demanding anything. I'm telling the op why i don't think its worth my money because of certain things that are lacking. A demand is completely different. I'm sorry you completely fail to understand this. O well.O and by the way, your question is retarded. So what if they haven't been doing it as long or if there isn't as much money in it. If you still don't deliver something i think is worth it or that i deem acceptable then my money isn't going into someone else's pocket. Why even make excuses lol
Id say HOTS should be the big time where leagues unite and figure out something because that will be the next big boom, as of now its still sc2 vanilla like sc1 was before bw, gives time for companies to figure it out and it will be a big growth in new players coming in!
On February 09 2012 15:09 Chill wrote: I think people have gotten used to this charity model where the majority is given away for free. I think there's this perception that companies are making money, but I doubt they are.
It's a tough spot. Monetize and people revolt and you die. Don't monetize and you slowly drown. I don't know how it's going to work. Maybe you have to completely level up the broadcast to a completely different place where people expect to pay for that quality? No idea.
Edit: No one seems to treat this as a business. There's a feeling things should be free because they want it to grow. Until we get past that and make it a business, it'll never be more than a niche market, which is fine, but it is what it is.
I agree with chill above, speaking as someone working within the machine without making money off it. Simply as he puts it similar to a charity model, based on your love of it.
The people at the top players and casters etc. are making money. The majority of everyone else making the machine work are doing it simply because they love it. The issue with that is you inevitably can only grow so much when people have to work a 9 to 5 to support their life and then go and do their passion in what time they have left.
This all leads to the conundrum chill pointed out above so eloquently. You need people to pay you for your content or have a lot of sponsor money to pay everyone enough to live off of from the top down. On the flip side how much can you actually charge people before they lose interest?
If you can't pay people from the top down, you only go so far such he pointed out. So, at the end of the day either huge sponsor money needs to roll in or they'd have to go to a pay system to truly allow people to be professionals at what they do. The sound guy, the video guy, the casters, the players...etc.etc.
Thus far I would say they are attempting to lure in the big sponsors to achieve that goal. At some point though that may not cut it and to put on a truly quality product it might be something they'd have to make people pay for.
Ok u want esports to be a real sport! All fine and dandy u gotta start somewhere and i guess subscriptions is the way to go and asking the community to start paying and make it into a flame war between company and people who are greedy and want it for free. That is already a bad start, its funny all these companies are talking about making money and the one company who could have made a boatload of money and if not for them many of these other companies and tournaments would be no where is TEAMLIQUID! Tl is by far the leaders in whats good for the community point finale! Now if you want to start making money, first of all make a group, second study early stages of professional sports, struggles, how they grew, the troubles they ran into, use history as a fucking guideline! 3rd look at past internet experiences when gaming was trying to grow, how it ran into road blocks and why it didn`t develop the way envisioned! 4th be fucking tactical and reasonable, dont be like u need to fucking subscribe to make sc2 work, fucking be marketable, give the public a reason to want to subscribe dont be like u have to for this work! 5th we all want the same thing as a community, sponsor, player and that is all that matters, have fun!
The most interesting thought would be whether market monopoly is actually a bad thing. I think there has been viable points made how increased monetization could result in a dominating share of the few existing major players, since an individual's money is finite and customer choice is likely to favor establishment. If anything, every parent organization of big sports is exactly the same kind of monopoly. FIFA, NBA, the Olympic Committee, etc. In fact, it would be the only reasonable way to install the level of universal regulation we have always wished for. Truth is, the surefire way to establish an acknowledged rule-set is to be the only one having to accept it.
However, what the critics didn't address yet is how this monopoly is being put into practice. What aforementioned major sport organizations have realized is to actively integrate several levels of structure. Money is being "poured top-down", there exists an accredited pathway to "climb up the ladder"- both player-wise and logistically. In a real world scenario, it would be exactly the cooperation between low, mid and high-tier tournaments within a coherent system we would like to see. It is mutually beneficial for all parties involved, as a starting point for aspiring casters and players to meddle in "regionals", as talent pool for the upper echelon to rely on.
However, there are several issues to be aware of. First is the balance of power, which is directly related to the previous paragraph. It puts a lot of trust in the few decision makers, and I for one am not ready to give that yet. There are still too many basic faux-pas happening, from production to tournament regulations. Second is permeability. The biggest single mistake would be not aggressively reach out for existing content providers. In that light, it still isn't understandable how GOM literally threw the Korean Weekly under the bus.
I had some other points in mind, but as I've pulled an all-nighter, my brain ceases to function....
After finding and listening to the audio of what LordJerith said, I've gained some respect for the guy and what he's asserting. But, LordJerith, do not shit on the community.
(Starts at 48 minutes)
This is the speech he's referencing throughout:
The difference between Mr. Ellison and Starcraft in esports is: 1. Growth of the scene majorly relies on individuals viewing free streams. If content is over-monetized or monetized incorrectly at this stage, it will just halt growth very quickly. 2. Mr. Ellison is being critical of Warner Bros, a big corporation demanding free work. We're talking about our community and primary source of growth.
UFC for example, while it is PPV, has many ways to view tournaments for free: in my experience it's always broadcasting at my gym, at the bar, etc. free to the user.
At this stage giving thought to creative business models that do not significantly sacrifice growth to implement is essential.
On February 10 2012 11:54 Elwar wrote: Simple answer is try it out and see what happens.
The most overused word on the internet at the moment seems to be 'entitlement' with people clamoring to tell everyone why they should expect less and less and be happy about it. It dawns on me that maybe e-sports organisations aren't entitled to any more profit per viewer than they're currently getting.
Try it, don't provide a free stream to your event and see what happens. Monetise everything to squeeze the last red cent from the viewers. If it falls flat on its face, well, theres already a system thats proven to work and if that doesn't generate enough profit for your liking, leave the industry. No one will care. If it works, you have your answer.
I agree with this. If you really believe it will work then do it.
On February 10 2012 10:50 RoboBob wrote: Yeah, that VVV guy has no clue what he's talking about.
Yes, I'm sure a guy who runs a very successful gaming organization has no idea what he's on about, while you, a guy on a forum, have all the answers.
VVV isn't quite like your fnatic or SK, it's a very different model. And Lord Jerith has many a time said extremely controversial things, going out of line crapping on old games (counter-strike...), dissing on games because of graphics (hello scbw) and so on. Do your own research before blindly appealing to authority.
I just wanted to add something else to this thread, even though it has a lot of content in it already. The idea that we should "stop feeling entitled (to everything for free)" and if we don't pay for events we're "not supporting eSports", it's a flawed one. If eSports is to be a legitimate business, they can't work off of the community's charity. I don't pay for the GSL because I feel bad and want to keep eSports going financially, I do it because the content I receive is worth it for me. That is the way it works for every product and every business; the burden is on them to put forward a product that consumers should want to pay for, with a business model that will keep them profitable.
It's not right to accuse naysayers in this thread of being greedy and unwilling to pay for things. They all have their reasons. If the desire does not exist for a PPV model to be profitable in SC2, then it won't happen, and it's not the fault of the fans. Put forward a good product at a fair price and people will buy it.
On February 10 2012 11:54 Elwar wrote: Simple answer is try it out and see what happens.
The most overused word on the internet at the moment seems to be 'entitlement' with people clamoring to tell everyone why they should expect less and less and be happy about it. It dawns on me that maybe e-sports organisations aren't entitled to any more profit per viewer than they're currently getting.
Try it, don't provide a free stream to your event and see what happens. Monetise everything to squeeze the last red cent from the viewers. If it falls flat on its face, well, theres already a system thats proven to work and if that doesn't generate enough profit for your liking, leave the industry. No one will care. If it works, you have your answer.
I also agree with this.
I also think that a lot of people in the so-called "industry" underestimate how much of the revenue they get they only get from sympathy and passion of the fans, rather than because somebody would pay as much for the actual product if they didn't feel a personal connection of sorts with the people behind and what they do. The "charity" actually goes both ways because on both sides there are people who are passionate about it and care for the game and the competition and will invest their time and/or money that they otherwise wouldn't. It is the ONLY fuel that keeps SC2 as an esport going and what made it go this far.
So I would advise caution before calling the fans out for "entitlement" and "receiving charity". It only takes a few people to start it off for GSL to be torrent-able every day, yet we don't do it even though GSL is terribly overpriced. People only need to turn their ad-blockers on and remove exceptions for TL/twitch and advertising revenue goes away, but we don't do it and we sit through the commercials that we have no personal interest in watching. And both of these are very commonplace practices on the internet, especially among the mostly technically savvy audience such as this community.
Running PPV model in such small market as eSports ? Are you guys serious ? The PPV model is suitable for extremely popular events (UFC as example) where many people will pay to watch and you are sure that no one will quit watching because of it. MLG , I think it's obvious, is not on that level. What will happen if MLG start PPV model now : At first they will get more money, but it will not be for long. After they put such barrier in front of the new viewers (charging them for watching at all) they will not really get new viewers, but part of the old ones will start to quit. Then because the viewer base is getting lower some of the sponsors will withdraw . And VOILA MLG will start to earn less money than they would with the current model. Soon after that they will either realize that they must return on their old model or die. Actually this thread reminds me of the FreeMMOs vs Subscription based MMOs debate. Some of the companies are giving you the game for free , but then charge you for extras. Others make you buy the game and then pay subscription every month... Well that didn't turned well for the second ones - Only the biggest fish(WoW, EVE and some others) survived, while most of the FreeMMOs are still standing strong. Also many of the subscription based games became free with premium options. What does that teach us ? People are more willing to give you money if you give them part of the product for free and then give them options to improve the experience in exchange of some cash(LoL is huge example of that). Also if you are not the biggest fish in the sea you can't afford to charge people for just watching/playing.
Yeah, right, that will let SC2 grow. That dude is seriously funny. You let "lower" quality content flow around to invite new followers to the scene, while you charge the high end product. I have paid for every GSL since last spring. And although at times I was too busy to watch (even the VODs) I did not and for a single moment regret that money spent. I would by no means buy MLG tickets. And I will tell you why mr. Jerith (and all those who agree).
I am a consumer. I consume the fruits of the starcraft2 industry. I bought the game. I pay for the GSL. I watch streams with addblocker off.
I watch quite a few of day9's work. I am one of those people that give mr.9 the "power in the community" he has. He has on his back thousands of viewers ready to consume. He brings viewership to every event he goes to. If he started charging for let's say for his "serious" dailies, he would be totally entitled to do it. He sells to us the product of his decade long experience. Can we get it anywhere else (combined with the sexy beast day9 is)? No. Can we support his efforts with this purchase? Yes. Will we do it? I feel almost sure we will. Will I do it? Of course.
And I would want to buy his product because it has a clear value to me. It improves my analytic thinking. It shows me the beauty of cool strats. It gives me someting that makes me feel worth the money I spend.
I have watched a lot of the GSL, as I mentioned before. Why do I pay? GSL offers the best production of SC2 content, combined with the best players, while being on most of the week, giving maximum entertainment value for my money. They improve every season. Just now the "learn Korean" and the interesting music tracks and some info about them in the breaks show me just that: it's worth my money. So besides from consuming their product, I am also paying to support their growth. And hell, it's dirt cheap.
Besides that, they offer the LQ VODless stream of other events. If I don't have gstl now, next season I might get so impressed by the "glimpse" I have gotten now that I might buy it. And please remember, consumers have feelings as well. They treat me well. You say: CHARGE THEM
20-25$ for two days of MLG? You have really really strong competition in the form of 15$ for a month of far better content. Why the hell besides emotional reasons (it's a foreign tournament, yay) and because you want to support the e-sports growth would anyone pay?
What does the foreign scene have to justify everything not being free? Streams not being free? Low/Medium quality streams of tournaments, without bonus content, not being free? That's the only reason the foreign scene has the viewership it has now. First improve. A lot. Then and after you have reached a small fragment of the GSL quality/price ratio, even consider of charging your product. Until then, survive on adds and on donations.
CHARGE THEM. No mr. Jerith we will not pay when there is good content for free. And if all content would be charged, then besides the dramatic impact on the e-sport scene growth, those who stay will pay for the better product. And that's the GSL.
I miss the days I come home every day to boatloads of Warcraft 3 replays from replayers.com and replays.net. They want to take away streaming? Fine, but release the replays a month later. I can live with that.
On February 10 2012 10:11 coolcor wrote: Hey this thread is very interesting I hope people in the industry continue to post about this. It made me think about a couple things so I want to ask about them
1) Are teams like EG sustainable and making money? Have sustainable tournaments is the most important thing but the teams are 2nd most important and how would a PPV model affect them? It would mean less people watching the tournaments (don't say everyone will buy they won't) so that means less exposure and ROI to team sponsors and teams depend on those sponsors getting a ROI right? Just make sure that the PPV model makes all parts sustainable not just tournaments.
2) Whats going on with the sustainability of the fighting game community right now? They have a bunch of LAN tournaments and free streams to watch those tournaments so are they also in a bubble or are they doing something right? Evo is a big one and it has lasted 10 years. They can't even really have a big online tournament so sc2 has an advantage there.
3) Can the tournaments cut costs if they all agree to do it at once so none of them look inferior? Would it be possible for them to all go to the true level they should be and become sustainable? Less prize money, don't pay a caster 20 000 for one event, simpler and cheap production to focus on just streaming the games and not looking super professional? (like a fighting game tournament)
Also the people who posted about agdq making 150 000 and that got me thinking that foreign tournaments should try copying what they did with donation incentives before going to PPV where they advertise on stream when we reach x amount of donations/subscriptions to the tournament you will get to see y. And just keep setting a bunch of new goals over the weekend.
Some incentives could be interviews, idra talking balance and bad players, showmatches, competitive or funday monday condition or custom game showmatches (sc2 broodwar for nostalgia money!) , bidding wars for which game to stream and who to cast it or who plays in the showmatches with what condition.
And then if someone donates more then x it counts as a subscription and they get HD and maybe even have more incentives like a chance for signed merchandise or stream shoutouts or player coaching lessons to people who pay even higher.
Seems like it would be neat.
Also blizzard should stopping hurting esports with the tournament fees they should be happy that someone wants to lose money advertising their game not make them lose even more and fail faster. They can change back if the tournaments ever do start making lots of money.
ad (1): He said that Alex Garfield is making 2mio a year. So I assume yes, EG are indeed making money
On February 10 2012 10:11 coolcor wrote: Hey this thread is very interesting I hope people in the industry continue to post about this. It made me think about a couple things so I want to ask about them
1) Are teams like EG sustainable and making money? Have sustainable tournaments is the most important thing but the teams are 2nd most important and how would a PPV model affect them? It would mean less people watching the tournaments (don't say everyone will buy they won't) so that means less exposure and ROI to team sponsors and teams depend on those sponsors getting a ROI right? Just make sure that the PPV model makes all parts sustainable not just tournaments.
2) Whats going on with the sustainability of the fighting game community right now? They have a bunch of LAN tournaments and free streams to watch those tournaments so are they also in a bubble or are they doing something right? Evo is a big one and it has lasted 10 years. They can't even really have a big online tournament so sc2 has an advantage there.
3) Can the tournaments cut costs if they all agree to do it at once so none of them look inferior? Would it be possible for them to all go to the true level they should be and become sustainable? Less prize money, don't pay a caster 20 000 for one event, simpler and cheap production to focus on just streaming the games and not looking super professional? (like a fighting game tournament)
Also the people who posted about agdq making 150 000 and that got me thinking that foreign tournaments should try copying what they did with donation incentives before going to PPV where they advertise on stream when we reach x amount of donations/subscriptions to the tournament you will get to see y. And just keep setting a bunch of new goals over the weekend.
Some incentives could be interviews, idra talking balance and bad players, showmatches, competitive or funday monday condition or custom game showmatches (sc2 broodwar for nostalgia money!) , bidding wars for which game to stream and who to cast it or who plays in the showmatches with what condition.
And then if someone donates more then x it counts as a subscription and they get HD and maybe even have more incentives like a chance for signed merchandise or stream shoutouts or player coaching lessons to people who pay even higher.
Seems like it would be neat.
Also blizzard should stopping hurting esports with the tournament fees they should be happy that someone wants to lose money advertising their game not make them lose even more and fail faster. They can change back if the tournaments ever do start making lots of money.
ad (1): He said that Alex Garfield is making 2mio a year. So I assume yes, EG are indeed making money
EG is hugely successful, but one should remember that SC2 is only one part of their business and they were already successful before it.
Since our friendly neighborhood moderator thought my last post was horrible and off topic let me explain what I meant:
I know everyone gets their panties in a knot whenever this happens, but let's compare SC2 with BW. Why is the free stream for a supposedly dying game higher quality than the paid stream for the supposedly hugely more popular one? Why does KT spend more money on Flash's salary than most SC2 teams have for their entire budget? Isn't this the opposite of what makes sense?
The reason why even the crumbling BW industry is able to move so much money is because it's an actual industry built from the ground up. It has sponsors and a regulatory organization and a tv channel to deliver content to the audience. SC2 has none of this. The SC2 scene is every man for himself trying to get a piece of the pie without paying any attention to what made it work in the first place, and Blizzard is right in the middle of it stirring the pot and hoping money will come out.
The GSL has commercials for the Korean audience. Why are there no commercials for the international stream? Can they not find any companies that want to buy ad space? Are there not enough viewers to attract sponsors? If that's the case, how do they get more viewers? These are the questions tournament organizers need to be asking themselves, not how to extract more money directly from the viewers themselves.
The rant itself is not a good way to convey the message but I get the general idea and agree that in order to make things happen you need money you can spend. FXO Boss already said this but he sort of went against himself when he gave out full HD stream for the FIS5. The gist of it is that many sponsors offer goods rather than money and promote things the viewers already know/own while the teams need to “spend money to make money”.
Right now I think it’s ok to offer a 360p stream and VODs for free because outside of America I don’t think it’s that common to pay for things via Paypal and so on, you’d lose many eyeballs. The point of charging right now should be to limit the quality/quantity of the product and then use the money to transfer from a community (based on voluntary work) to an industry (where people get paid for the work they do). For example Totalbiscuit having a short QnA with the subscriber chat. Good journalists should be paid, same as good chat/forum moderators and so on…
I’m still concerned if it’s a good idea to build up an industry around entertainment when countries suffer because there major industries don’t have the confidence to spend money to make money because of the financial recession. I’d rather see someone study and strive to fix American health care rather than make esports bigger because some things are just more important for the society. Personally I’d like to see a transition from the madness of constant supply and demand chase, yet there still are areas vital to the function of our society which would benefit from educated or simply hardworking people.
On February 10 2012 07:36 xSixGeneralHan wrote: MLG is doing it the right way, they had a product, needed it improved awhile ago. Got venture capital funding to get production and events to a place where MLG should be able to move to a sustainable model of pricing for all content. They fly gsl competitors here, they have like 6 streams with commentators, add production value well. All these people arguing about quality of content should be there before they pay are proving the point some of these events deserve to be pure pricing based and try to make their money there.
If hot pockets, nos, dr.pepper, are required to support MLG making a profit, then that venture capital fund might as well throw in the towel. That's not sustainable at all.
5 bucks a month for arena and content, low quality. 10 bucks a month for arena and content, high quality. 10 bucks per championship event, low quality. 20 bucks per championship event, high quality.
If you refuse to pay that, then all I can do is shake my head.
I think its great that you want "esports" to make money(or your/someone elses business venture). Why would you shake your head at someone refusing to pay for something? Its not your money, its theirs. They can do as they please. I'm tired of reading several posts(not including this one) stating that we should pay for content. Stop telling people how to spend their money(imposing your will). Just offer a product and promote the product, but for christ sake stop imposing your will. If you want to start charging for content then go for it(i do think the organizers should be making some sort of money afterall), But don't start telling people how to think(i.e you should be paying for this) to make a buck. Put your product out there. PEOPLE SHOULD DECIDE FOR THEMSELVES AND NOT BECAUSE SOMEONE TOLD THEM.
Sorry, I was meant to show that I was shaking my head at the people who think they deserve it for free. I 100% agree with it's their money, they don't have to support it. I'm saying if you feel entitled to the content, then you're all wrong
Yeah i think you should edit your post to reflect what you mean because it really looks bad ;/. Anywho. I've thought about this alot. I want the sc2 scene to become as big as the nba, mlb etc etc. I want all players/organizers etc etc making mad dough in the future. One reason why i won't pay for alot of the content is because most of it is very amateur. Alot of the commentators are amateurs. Sorry, this isn't meant to be an insult either. The production value is of college level for most of these events being ran(streamwise). I think GSL/MLG do it the best as of right now, however, it still needs to be better if i'm gonna to spend my hard earned money on a subscription. Just remember, for other sports and other activies you can view most of it for free. So why would we pay? I wouldn't pay for the sake of supporting "esports"(realistically someone elses pocket).
I think the Gsl production value is the best right now. However, i still think its not good enough. There are always little amateur hiccups here n there(Production-wise). Theres often problems with in-game camera observer not catching everything. In 'real' sports scenes such as the nfl or nba or baseball or w/e these types of issues for kept to a very miniscule possibility if at all. Yet we don't pay for them still unless its some sort of season pass thing similar to what gom does. Comparing the sc2 scene to already established sports makes the sc2 scene look slightly weak and amateurish. Why would you expect people to want to shell out money for this type of quality? Especially in retrospect to the other "sports" out there.
I think MLG and GOM have good models for this. However i think other entrepreneurs are just looking for an easier way to make a buck while telling people they should pay lol.
These are just my 2 cents, i'm sure i left out some things i meant to put in here as far as improvement goes but as of right now i don't think any of this content is really worth paying for. GOM is like almost worth it for me, almost. MLG isn't because u don't get every game. Its like here is an 1/8 of the tournament, hope you didn't miss too much(of course not all the games are worth watching, but it would be nice to be able to catch every round past 6 in the brack/all champ/all pools etc, mainly all the super solid players playing)
But yeah, i'll probably edit this or make a repost if i remember anything else.
lol demanding that SC2 tournaments live up to the production value of professional sports that are watched by millions on national TV...the flaws inherent in that argument are so obvious that it boggles my mind why you would write that out.
LOl i'm not demanding shit, learn how to read kiddo. I'm simply providing feedback as to why i don't think its worth my money. It boggles my mind why you would write that out without reading first Idiotic assumptions aside, You do have to market it and produce it like other professional sports if you want to be viewed it as one. Otherwise your just playing Illusions that people will eventually see through(i.e a subpar production that will eventually die out due to better competition or people just deciding its not worth it) Yeah my analygies blow but you get the point.
You're demanding that SC2 tournaments achieve a production value on par with professional sports before you'll pay anything for them. Ask yourself this - how much more money is in professional sports, and how much longer have professional sports been putting on TV-quality productions? Apply those two answers to your logic and tell me what you find out .
Again, kids need to learn to read. If you think that being able to see someone's kitchen/den behind them professional while they cast then you're what i like to call clueless on whats professional/acceptable. I'll say it again, i'm not demanding anything. I'm telling the op why i don't think its worth my money because of certain things that are lacking. A demand is completely different. I'm sorry you completely fail to understand this. O well.O and by the way, your question is retarded. So what if they haven't been doing it as long or if there isn't as much money in it. If you still don't deliver something i think is worth it or that i deem acceptable then my money isn't going into someone else's pocket. Why even make excuses lol
Lol calling the people you're arguing with "kids" and "retarded" isn't a good way to make yourself sound intelligent. You want esports tournaments to match the production value of multi-billion dollar national TV networks before you'll pay anything for an esports tournament. Then you call it an "excuse" when it's suggested that esports tournaments can't match a production value that has millions of dollars behind it. Clearly rational thinking isn't your forte.
What i wonder about "Adds"... Why don't I get them on many streams? Or why are they advertising something I can't buy here? Or why are they advertising something which is clearly not targeted at the audience (a family car, wtf?)
I live in Switzerland... Which officially is speaking French, German and Italian. Now me not getting adds seems to indicate that: Germans and Austrians also don't get adds (because I can buy like 95% of the "branded" stuff they can so why wouldn't I get their adds?). French and Belgues don't get adds (because I can buy lik 95% of the "branded" stuff they can so why wouldn't I get their adds?). (+tons of other French speaking countries) Italians don't get adds (because I can buy like 95% of the "branded" stuff they can so why wouldn't I get their adds?).
So a big part of western Europe seems to not get Adds.. W T F? These countries together afaik have over ~150 Mio. inhabitants. Inhabitants which have among the highest purchasing power in the world... WHY don't we get adds ffs?
I think it's kinda funny that you are bitching about the lack of income when you don't even have adds for "everyone" in favor black screens.
I'm still hoping for some sites adding an option to buy a single ticket for a match/set, usually i'm not that interested that i'd like to spend 30€ just to watch the few matches i'd like to see.
People always want to compare eSports to physical sports. Guess what, real sports are primarily supported by advertising. So there is one huge clue that monetizing it isn't required to keep it from being "dead."
The UFC is a niche market that Dana White wants to squeeze every bent penny out of because he would rather be a big fish in a small pond than use an advertising model and grow the sport where he would end up just being one of many medium sized fish. Regarding the WWE...I can only say rofflewaffles.
I think the industry has to survive on being as thrifty as possible and relying on corporate sponsorships.
SC2 and the competitive esports business as a whole will not make it as a successful industry until the audience scales appropriately. That means waiting for at least 10 years for the next highly tech-oriented stream-oriented generation of kids and players to grow up and have disposable income, and for the already-occurring cultural changes about online streaming to lead to higher per-impression ad-rates and ad revenues.
On February 10 2012 23:53 Velr wrote: What i wonder about "Adds"... Why don't I get them on many streams? Or why are they advertising something I can't buy here? Or why are they advertising something which is clearly not targeted at the audience (a family car, wtf?)
I live in Switzerland... Which officially is speaking French, German and Italian. Now me not getting adds seems to indicate that: Germans and Austrians also don't get adds (because I can buy like 95% of the "branded" stuff they can so why wouldn't I get their adds?). French and Belgues don't get adds (because I can buy lik 95% of the "branded" stuff they can so why wouldn't I get their adds?). (+tons of other French speaking countries) Italians don't get adds (because I can buy like 95% of the "branded" stuff they can so why wouldn't I get their adds?).
So a big part of western Europe seems to not get Adds.. W T F? These countries together afaik have over ~150 Mio. inhabitants. Inhabitants which have among the highest purchasing power in the world... WHY don't we get adds ffs?
I think it's kinda funny that you are bitching about the lack of income when you don't even have adds for "everyone" in favor black screens.
I was posting about that yesterday, because of a lot of my favorite streams (Korean Weekly, E Weekly Match) I never have ads during the ad breaks and I feel like I contribute nothing (I don't use any adblock on streams for this reason). I hope twitch (I have french ads on owned3D) will work this issue. Imo the stream providers have a great role in this, and even if for instance the watching french demography isn't big enough, they still have to adjust their prices to attract some ads. I don't know anything about how they work in that area, but I'm sure of one thing, they could do better.
On February 10 2012 16:28 gnatinator wrote: After finding and listening to the audio of what LordJerith said, I've gained some respect for the guy and what he's asserting. But, LordJerith, do not shit on the community.
The difference between Mr. Ellison and Starcraft in esports is: 1. Growth of the scene majorly relies on individuals viewing free streams. If content is over-monetized or monetized incorrectly at this stage, it will just halt growth very quickly. 2. Mr. Ellison is being critical of Warner Bros, a big corporation demanding free work. We're talking about our community and primary source of growth.
UFC for example, while it is PPV, has many ways to view tournaments for free: in my experience it's always broadcasting at my gym, at the bar, etc. free to the user.
At this stage giving thought to creative business models that do not significantly sacrifice growth to implement is essential.
Thanks for finding this and sharing. I want to note that the "rant" segments are designed to cause discussion and controversy. Some may not like the language, style or delivery, and I respect that. My intent was not to "shit" on the community. Keep in mind that it is intended to stir emotion.
I do stand by the idea that MLG needs to create quality, professional content and charge for it. The SC2 arena will have all the world top talent. Produce a high quality show and charge for it. If they/we can't, then eSports as a professional business activity is an illusion.
Now, Mr. Ellison also speaks about amateurs giving it away for free, which was more relevant to the point I was making. I do feel my UFC example has been taken too literally. It was an example. I see too many people say UFC is not SC2, and that seems so banally obvious, that I am surprised it is mentioned so often.
I also am surprised that so many use the F2P in certain games or compare this to television. This is a tiny niche. In order for this to grow, MLG will need show investors that the core fan base is willing to pay for this kind of content. They are already $42.5 million into trial and error. If this fails, it will fail fast and now they will know.
If any league does this, I will purchase it. If I do not like it, or even if I like it, but want other features, I will let them know just like I do with any other product or service I consume.
I am hopeful that MLG will try this. It's the best opportunity to date to demonstrate the demand for professional SC2 content, and could lead to more investment $$$. If no one is willing to pay, and the population is too small for ad revenue or merchandising to sustain events, then the final source is sponsorship dollars, and Mr. B covered that quite well.
Why would I pay for anything that costs more than GSL when GSL provides: 1 - Better production 2 - A longer seasons 3 - By far better players
There is like no reason why I would want to pay for another turnament unless basically every player in Code S/Code A goes somewhere else, especially since my only interest is seeing the best of the best duking it out.
I am hopeful that MLG will try this. It's the best opportunity to date to demonstrate the demand for professional SC2 content, and could lead to more investment $$$. If no one is willing to pay, and the population is too small for ad revenue or merchandising to sustain events, then the final source is sponsorship dollars, and Mr. B covered that quite well.
then what is your opinion on mlg pulling out of content production? how can they create quality professional content if they would need to hire in the staff for events 4 times a year. they HAD a huge content crew ready to go, then based on their poor management they decided that there was no money in sc2 content and fired them all.
mlgs current business model (baring the new 4(?) man team to throw out the online qualifiers) seems to be more entrenched than ever in a 4 events per year model. they complain about the increased costs of trucking the mlg set around the country, then they seem to shot themselves in the foot again making it harder for them to justify a full time content team.
i have no idea if mlg could even afford a full time team similar to 1 that has been suggested, but it seems that by growing in the way they have chosen too, they one again are locking themselves into their current situation.
Would I pay to watch SC2 ? Sure. I actually already do since I'm a subscriber to watch the GSL. But I don't even have enough time to watch all the GSL matches, so I'm not sure I'd pay for another SC2 event.
Now, the GSL is running over a long period of time. This allow me to watch 1h of SC2 per day and stay up-to-date with the competition. But If I had to pay for a tournament event that's running on 3-4 days, I wouldn't be interested, because I don't want to watch 4+ hours of SC2 on a single day.
Now, one of the most important thing in my mind is that currently, production quality still kind of sucks (even for the GSL, which has improved a lot lately). It's a videogame, we should be able to get much more realtime info than just the video. I want to be able to see exactly what either player sees on his screen (per-player stream), I want to see splited screen when combat occurs at two locations, I want to be able to consult statistics (combat heatmaps, mineral remaining in expands, units, upgrades, etc...) myself (how often do I think "please show me the units tab"). I mean, the interactivity of SC2 casts is really poor and if a league offer more than what's currently available, I might definitely be interested to pay.
I am hopeful that MLG will try this. It's the best opportunity to date to demonstrate the demand for professional SC2 content, and could lead to more investment $$$. If no one is willing to pay, and the population is too small for ad revenue or merchandising to sustain events, then the final source is sponsorship dollars, and Mr. B covered that quite well.
then what is your opinion on mlg pulling out of content production. how can they create quality professional content if they would need to hire in the staff for events 4 times a year. they HAD a huge content crew ready to go, then based on their poor management they decided that there was no money in sc2 content and fired them all.
mlgs current business model (baring the new 4(?) man team to throw out the online qualifiers) seems to be more entrenched than ever in a 4 events per year model. they complain about the increased costs of trucking the mlg set around the country, then they seem to shot themselves in the foot again making it harder for them to justify a full time content team.
i have no idea if mlg could even afford a full time team similar to 1 that has been suggested, but it seems that by growing in the way they have chose too, they one again are locking themselves into their current situation.
I think IF MLG decided to use a PPV model, then I suspect that they would be sure to have the resources to make quality content. I am certain MLG reads this thread, and they can see the debate. I am sure that they realize that they need to provide quality. Also, they have solid partners to help them with this in Blizzard and Agora. I would say that we will have to wait and see.
Note: "they HAD a huge content crew ready to go, then based on their poor management they decided that there was no money in sc2 content and fired them all."
-content is not the same as a quality event stream. Not the same thing at all. -they decided there was no money in SC2? Can you link me to evidence that was their reasoning?
i didnt say no money in sc2, i said no money in the content. by which i meant the articles and written work they were doing. but that was entirely because the mlg site is a crapfest thats been complained about for 4 years now? and i know content isnt the same as on stream work, but they had a whole team who cared about gaming who (by what most people said) worked hard and knew their stuff. whether those people could translate into video work i dont know, but mlg have burnt the bridge.
So I just found out that an adventure game got 1 million dollars on kickstarter in one day. (now 1.3 million) Why isn't MLG on kickstarter making a million dollars?
Donation incentives can save esports! 10 000 gets you lunch with day9! Once MLG reaches the break even point they stream a day9 vs tasteless showmatch. Add in the ideas like in my previous post for smaller amounts and MLG should be rolling in money. (and if not I think they are doomed anyways day9 is more powerful than PPV)
On February 11 2012 02:38 coolcor wrote: So I just found out that an adventure game got 1 million dollars on kickstarter in one day. (now 1.3 million) Why isn't MLG on kickstarter making a million dollars?
Donation incentives can save esports! 10 000 gets you lunch with day9! Once MLG reaches the break even point they stream a day9 vs tasteless showmatch. Add in the ideas like in my previous post for smaller amounts and MLG should be rolling in money. (and if not I think they are doomed anyways day9 is more powerful than PPV)
Not too bad of an idea. Also, i like the Day9-part. But the "break even point" should be something better than a showmatch between Day9 and Tasteless. More like Tastosis (including Artosis), Day9 and TB on a couch for 3 hours, ranting about.. Stuff, i dont know what exactly. I just like to hear them talk. ^^
paytv in germany always failed/never got big like it is in america. you would never see people here paying for an UFC match.
on top of this i met alot of ppl who have annual tickets (expensive shit) for their favorite soccer/ice hockey team to see them play in real but never cared to pay to see all the matches on TV.
i listened to the podcast on my way home and yeah.. actually there are parts outside of the USA. like hole other fucking continents were things are a bit different which were not considered in this podcast at all. for example that in those other continents people are not just poor but on top of this their currency is worth shit so 30 dollars are not even near the margin they could afford.
i still believe in free content +extre content model. because you know what? the world is fucking changing and this guy most def lives very much in his own world with his own believes, which is not a bad thing at all and i understand he overacted jsut for the cause of it..
anyway.. fuck paying for content. i dont have to pay for fucking facebook, right? what would be his argument there?
"so if you fucking want to socialize let them fucking pay for it, we have social media to grow and we cant if little fad kids dont fucking pay for their socializing website that costs money to run".
how fucking cheap does that argument sound !?
deciding people in esports just have to smart the fuck up. not saying they are dumb but you get my point.
(see what i did with all the fucks?)
edit: i just want to say that i have the very very most respect for people like Day9 that are so good people are willing to give them money even though they dont have to. but i am not one of those people. i can do lots of things for free and id rather spend my money on good food than for starcraft spectating. sc2 content for me is a "cool thing to have" and i dont have to pay so tournaments and players can make more money than i do. they advertise shit to me and fuck me i bought a steelseries after 6 years of razer so leave me and my money alone please.
That LordJerith seems to be the sort of guy who thinks he knows everything and everyone else is fucking stupid. I have no clue how it got to that delusional rant in that podcast(?), as "paytv"(well streaming but basically what he talks about) is something outdated and if esports were to go that route it would probably have higher chances of failing or "dying" how he put it, not the other way around. Also at one point he started bragging about earning 100000$+ a year, which i found incredibly funny and out of place
On February 11 2012 10:50 isleyofthenorth wrote: [...] Also at one point he started bragging about earning 100000$+ a year, which i found incredibly funny and out of place [...]
indeed he should maybe spend 30k a year more on his players. i somehow missed that part. kind of makes we want to punch someone hearing about a guy making 100+k but cry about people not stuffing more money into his upper middleclass ass.
also listened to live on three today where they talked about this year would change and people will have to put out money to watch SPONSORED tournaments and SPONSORED teams watching a stream full of ADVERTISEMENT.
well if thats the case. MLG and all other leagues. thanks for the content so far and good luck in the future with >10k views.
people might actually start to play the game. seems good to me.
On February 12 2012 04:08 how2TL wrote: Well when SC2 dies, you can point to this thread of people who would never dream of spending a cent on it as one reason why.
I think you meant to say, noone would dream of spending more cents for a lower quality and lower quantity product. Everyone here says only GSL is currently worth the money, and I agree.
On February 12 2012 04:08 how2TL wrote: Well when SC2 dies, you can point to this thread of people who would never dream of spending a cent on it as one reason why.
I think you meant to say, noone would dream of spending more cents for a lower quality and lower quantity product. Everyone here says only GSL is currently worth the money, and I agree.
more likely, when sc2 dies in the west, as most of the ADHD kids who play games these days move on to the next big thing. and obviously quality will never be as good compared to GSL.
It is hard for tournaments to charge unless they are bringing out the best players in the world - I think that is a big part of why people are happy to pay for the GSL, but would refrain from paying for IEM/ROG and other mid-tier tournaments. There are currently so many opportunities to see high-level foreigners play for free that it seems silly to pay for a single tournament here or there.
On the other hand, the best Code-S players are pretty much only seen in the GSL. While there will be a handful coming to each MLG, it is far from having the top 32 players in one tournament.
If these smaller tournaments aren't getting enough money through advertising, I fear they will just die off. The scene is vastly over-saturated right now.
also listened to live on three today where they talked about this year would change and people will have to put out money to watch SPONSORED tournaments and SPONSORED teams watching a stream full of ADVERTISEMENT.
Why is this seen as so foreign? You pay for Cable Television, yet it also still shows advertisements. You are paying to watch the NFL on TV, even if its not a direct transaction, but through your cable subscription (your cable company pays to carry each channel). The NFL has tons of sponsors, and also shows tons of advertisements during games.
On February 12 2012 04:08 how2TL wrote: Well when SC2 dies, you can point to this thread of people who would never dream of spending a cent on it as one reason why.
Well most people who dont want to pay actually play the game themselfs. This whole esports-bubble-burst-drama only affects the "I-Only-View" guys. Esports in the west existed before SC2 and it will exist after SC2. Maybe progamer cant make a living out of it and retire. So what? There will allways be someone better than me, whichs replay i can watch. The only esports organisation i spend money on is the ESL because i play in their leagues and it makes playing in their leagues a bit more comfortable. They HD-Quality on ESL.tv is just a sideeffect of it :/
also listened to live on three today where they talked about this year would change and people will have to put out money to watch SPONSORED tournaments and SPONSORED teams watching a stream full of ADVERTISEMENT.
Why is this seen as so foreign? You pay for Cable Television, yet it also still shows advertisements. You are paying to watch the NFL on TV, even if its not a direct transaction, but through your cable subscription (your cable company pays to carry each channel). The NFL has tons of sponsors, and also shows tons of advertisements during games.
Wrong! In the US with an antenna you can watch all your Local teams games for FREE in HD on FOX/ABC/CBS/NBC except for Monday Night Football when it's on ESPN and a handful of games on the NFL Network on Thursdays towards the end of the season. The reason that is the case is because the NFL has a HUGE audience where it's worth it to air it on the FREE networks since it brings them a lot more advertising revenue. So the networks fight each other to pay ungodly amounts of money to purchase the rights since football is king in America. Football has always been free to watch and that's why it's gotten to the point it has.
Ads are the way forward. If I have to pay, I don't watch. So I've seen all the first GSL VOD games :D! but never seen NASL in high quality or the rest of the GSL XD
On February 12 2012 04:08 how2TL wrote: Well when SC2 dies, you can point to this thread of people who would never dream of spending a cent on it as one reason why.
Well most people who dont want to pay actually play the game themselfs. This whole esports-bubble-burst-drama only affects the "I-Only-View" guys. Esports in the west existed before SC2 and it will exist after SC2. Maybe progamer cant make a living out of it and retire. So what? There will allways be someone better than me, whichs replay i can watch. The only esports organisation i spend money on is the ESL because i play in their leagues and it makes playing in their leagues a bit more comfortable. They HD-Quality on ESL.tv is just a sideeffect of it :/
Well that has nothing to do with the topic at hand.
If SC2 is to survive it needs to be able to generate more cash flow for the organizations involved.
If you don't care about SC2 surviving that's not really a valid argument against the thesis.
Here's the reality - monetizing Western e-sports is going to be very hard.
1. A lot of people are willing to do this for free. They'll do it for free because they are high-school and college kids who are just happy with their gaming hobbies, and don't care much about making a professional-level salary. A couple hundred bucks here or there is just gravy. You might not get Korean Code-S to play for $1k prizes, but you can get low-level Code A. And low-level Code A is still very, very good, and better than virtually all Western-team members. As to casters, please. Legions of aspiring wannabes are thirsting for their chance. Most will be bad, some won't. They'll probably do it for free, just to get exposure. There is a massive oversupply of people who want to be involved in e-sports.
2. Online Tournaments don't cost much to run You need players, some organizing, casters, and a streaming service. I've never hosted an online tournament before, so I have no idea what the relative costs are. But they are many orders-of-magnitude lower than any pro sporting event. You just can't justify the price. Having a prize fight at Madison Square Garden, between two boxers who play 3 matches a year, at most, is worth $30~50 PPV to some people. Watching a couple SC2 pros duke it out at the Anaheim convention center, when they play dozens of tournaments a year, and stream hundreds of games for free is worth a lot less, and costs a lot less to run.
3. The audience is price- and convenience-sensitive, not quality-sensitive To indulge in stereotypes, these are people who sleep on futons, eat pizza and instant ramen, and are happy doing it. Watching ForGG stream for an an hour is almost as good as watching an IPL TAC, which is almost as good as watching a NASL tournament, which is almost as good as watching an MLG tournament. Make one of these more expensive, they'll just drop down to the next level, and be almost as happy.
4. The price ceiling is set by Korea The GSL season ticket is the only relevant price in SC2. You have top level players, competing for high-stakes, with good production values. That is the benchmark for value. The only thing in the foreign scene that comes close to ticket-worthy, IMO, is Homestory Cup, because of the unique format and its "you have to be there to understand" quality. Everything else, so far, is the amateur version of the GSL.
5. Western e-sports teams are not important in SC2 (Edit: Players are more important) Slayers and oGs have distinct styles, because they have coaches, and training philosophies. "Slayers Terran" means something. It has a personality. Not a bullshit "hey, we're all douchebags" personality, but an authentic playing style. It's like SKT or KT Rolster. The team makes players better. Players without teams fall behind quickly. The same is just not true about foreign teams. I don't understand what the value proposition is for a foreign team. Sponsorships, twitter, cool mousepads, t-shirts - that's all great. But the guy who is on the team is no better than he was when he was just a kid streaming ladder from his bedroom. Why am I supposed to care about e-sports teams?
The OP sounds to me like a lot of QQ-ing about cheapskates hurting e-sports. I'm sorry you can't make more money doing e-sports, but there a lot of people trying to give it a go, and they're all willing to do it for whatever money is out there right now, and your competition is the GSL. So yeah, it's going to be hard to make money. And people like me who watch e-sports are going to get a lot of free content.
also listened to live on three today where they talked about this year would change and people will have to put out money to watch SPONSORED tournaments and SPONSORED teams watching a stream full of ADVERTISEMENT.
Why is this seen as so foreign? You pay for Cable Television, yet it also still shows advertisements. You are paying to watch the NFL on TV, even if its not a direct transaction, but through your cable subscription (your cable company pays to carry each channel). The NFL has tons of sponsors, and also shows tons of advertisements during games.
Wrong! In the US with an antenna you can watch all your Local teams games for FREE in HD on FOX/ABC/CBS/NBC except for Monday Night Football when it's on ESPN and a handful of games on the NFL Network on Thursdays towards the end of the season. The reason that is the case is because the NFL has a HUGE audience where it's worth it to air it on the FREE networks since it brings them a lot more advertising revenue. So the networks fight each other to pay ungodly amounts of money to purchase the rights since football is king in America. Football has always been free to watch and that's why it's gotten to the point it has.
Lol dude you are defeating your own arguments. You said it yourself "The reason that is the case is because the NFL has a HUGE audience where it's worth it to air it on the FREE networks". Sc2 has a very small audience in comparison. Maybe about 200k viewers total, and most Large tournaments only get 50-60k for a finals. That is such a small exposure group. I'm pretty sure you spend money on your other hobby's that you care about, why can't you spend money on SC2?
also listened to live on three today where they talked about this year would change and people will have to put out money to watch SPONSORED tournaments and SPONSORED teams watching a stream full of ADVERTISEMENT.
Why is this seen as so foreign? You pay for Cable Television, yet it also still shows advertisements. You are paying to watch the NFL on TV, even if its not a direct transaction, but through your cable subscription (your cable company pays to carry each channel). The NFL has tons of sponsors, and also shows tons of advertisements during games.
I pay one price to watch cable television (maybe 40$/month), but I get like 150 channels.
You say that the personal streams from manny players undermine the market and make it impossible for tournaments to ask lots of monney for their streams. Also is claimed that tournaments are making a loss and that some sort of extra revenu has to be found to prevent collapse of them. Personal streams however is how lots of players make a nice side income and you can not expect them to give that up so that tournaments can bring in more.
Although i find it a bad idea to make people pay for (tournament) streams, what you could do is the following You could make a channel with all current popular streams and tournament streams. Players can stream personal there and thoose who join wont stream elsewhere. You can then let people subscribe to that channel, 1 subscribtion for all content to make it simple. giving them acces to all popular streams we have now plus all tournament streams, for maybe say 2-5$ a month. 5$ might seem cheap since it would include all tournament hd streams but i think its better to go for a low price so that the vast majority of the people will buy it, rather then ask alot and go for the verry small niche of rich fans. i can imagine selling up to 100k subscribtions? if enough popular streamers participate. you then have 500k a month and can give say 300k to tournaments and 200k to maybe 200 players participating? well it maybe bit optimistic and not sure if it would be sufficient lol but its just an idea. Players and tournaments are also still able to personally sell the adds on their streams. This could maybe work if the vast majority of popular streamers would participate and stop streaming for free.
even though strongly against the idea to make people pay, and dont think its needed either (dont think tournaments making such big losses) this is maybe something that could work.
also listened to live on three today where they talked about this year would change and people will have to put out money to watch SPONSORED tournaments and SPONSORED teams watching a stream full of ADVERTISEMENT.
Why is this seen as so foreign? You pay for Cable Television, yet it also still shows advertisements. You are paying to watch the NFL on TV, even if its not a direct transaction, but through your cable subscription (your cable company pays to carry each channel). The NFL has tons of sponsors, and also shows tons of advertisements during games.
Wrong! In the US with an antenna you can watch all your Local teams games for FREE in HD on FOX/ABC/CBS/NBC except for Monday Night Football when it's on ESPN and a handful of games on the NFL Network on Thursdays towards the end of the season. The reason that is the case is because the NFL has a HUGE audience where it's worth it to air it on the FREE networks since it brings them a lot more advertising revenue. So the networks fight each other to pay ungodly amounts of money to purchase the rights since football is king in America. Football has always been free to watch and that's why it's gotten to the point it has.
Lol dude you are defeating your own arguments. You said it yourself "The reason that is the case is because the NFL has a HUGE audience where it's worth it to air it on the FREE networks". Sc2 has a very small audience in comparison. Maybe about 200k viewers total, and most Large tournaments only get 50-60k for a finals. That is such a small exposure group. I'm pretty sure you spend money on your other hobby's that you care about, why can't you spend money on SC2?
how does this argument make any sense at all?!
lets just pretend the following number are right:
NFL has 20 million viewers so an ad that runs 30 seconds costs 1 million dollars. MLG has 20 thousand viewers so a 30sec spot costs 1 thousand dollars-
now whats the reason i should pay again? i cant remember?! because it does not make any sense what you said.
you all buy gaming products so let those people pay for what they make money on labeling their overpriced shit with "pro gaming highend overcrossed technology warp ultrafuckme trademark".
how does this not make any sense to some people?! you are all already paying by playing on your icore7 with your 3000dpi mouse and your wannabee 7.1 headset and the insanly expensive cheap plastiv mousepad that wears off after 2 months of playing.
you would never buy all this shit if you do not care about esports, right?
seriously how much money do you think razor and steelseries make? i bet they laugh their asses off thinking of how little money they have to put into marketing.
but still alot of people here thinks they have to invest into esports as somehow they would invest into something they could make a return of investment. and even if this return would be a better quality of everything GREAT.. BUT in general it will mostly end up in some pockets of a handful people.
this is how it always was and it always will be if you do it like it always have been done. so go buy a real good piece of meat. or buy your lady a really nice ring. but dont pay for what others should pay. its just stupid.
and i am very sorry but if major companies dont invest into esports then its just not meant to be and thats how it is and we all can still play the game and watch proplayers just without all the fancy content. big deal....
also listened to live on three today where they talked about this year would change and people will have to put out money to watch SPONSORED tournaments and SPONSORED teams watching a stream full of ADVERTISEMENT.
Why is this seen as so foreign? You pay for Cable Television, yet it also still shows advertisements. You are paying to watch the NFL on TV, even if its not a direct transaction, but through your cable subscription (your cable company pays to carry each channel). The NFL has tons of sponsors, and also shows tons of advertisements during games.
Wrong! In the US with an antenna you can watch all your Local teams games for FREE in HD on FOX/ABC/CBS/NBC except for Monday Night Football when it's on ESPN and a handful of games on the NFL Network on Thursdays towards the end of the season. The reason that is the case is because the NFL has a HUGE audience where it's worth it to air it on the FREE networks since it brings them a lot more advertising revenue. So the networks fight each other to pay ungodly amounts of money to purchase the rights since football is king in America. Football has always been free to watch and that's why it's gotten to the point it has.
Lol dude you are defeating your own arguments. You said it yourself "The reason that is the case is because the NFL has a HUGE audience where it's worth it to air it on the FREE networks". Sc2 has a very small audience in comparison. Maybe about 200k viewers total, and most Large tournaments only get 50-60k for a finals. That is such a small exposure group. I'm pretty sure you spend money on your other hobby's that you care about, why can't you spend money on SC2?
how does this argument make any sense at all?!
lets just pretend the following number are right:
NFL has 20 million viewers so an ad that runs 30 seconds costs 1 million dollars. MLG has 20 thousand viewers so a 30sec spot costs 1 thousand dollars-
now whats the reason i should pay again? i cant remember?! because it does not make any sense what you said.
you all buy gaming products so let those people pay for what they make money on labeling their overpriced shit with "pro gaming highend overcrossed technology warp ultrafuckme trademark".
how does this not make any sense to some people?! you are all already paying by playing on your icore7 with your 3000dpi mouse and your wannabee 7.1 headset and the insanly expensive cheap plastiv mousepad that wears off after 2 months of playing.
you would never buy all this shit if you do not care about esports, right?
seriously how much money do you think razor and steelseries make? i bet they laugh their asses off thinking of how little money they have to put into marketing.
but still alot of people here thinks they have to invest into esports as somehow they would invest into something they could make a return of investment. and even if this return would be a better quality of everything GREAT.. BUT in general it will mostly end up in some pockets of a handful people.
this is how it always was and it always will be if you do it like it always have been done. so go buy a real good piece of meat. or buy your lady a really nice ring. but dont pay for what others should pay. its just stupid.
and i am very sorry but if major companies dont invest into esports then its just not meant to be and thats how it is and we all can still play the game and watch proplayers just without all the fancy content. big deal....
This.
You guys realise that when you pay 100$ for that Razer "I'm So l33t my mouse is named MAMBA" mouse you are coughing up about an 80% markup right?
And without games like SC2, razer (and all the other companies involved in this dance) would practically have no reason to exist since no one but fools like us buys their crap.
So yeah, lots of companies have already found a way to monetize esports. They also hold all the power. So instead of bitching, maybe this guy could spend his time finding ways to take a bigger cut from companies like razer. And if he thinks that people will be willing to pay even 10$ to watch crap teams like vVv, he is seriously delusional.
Just because a bunch of meatheads are willing to fork over for PPV to watch a 30 second UFC match, that does not mean that everyone else likes getting scammed.
And also, does he even know what the demographic for SC2 is? A bunch of high-school and university students... I mean, that's the definition of disposable income right?
I'm sorry, I have no idea how to do it but these businesses will need to learn of some way to make money without charging to watch or I'm out of here. But that's just me. It's the same way to me with Boxing PPV's, I never pay for those.
Charging is tricky Charge too much for not enough, and youll go down Dont charge enough for too much, and you might go down, it depends on how you play the game I dont know how you can balance cost with benefit when talking about streams, but the one who does, youre gonna get rich, man!
On February 10 2012 23:12 Zax19 wrote: The rant itself is not a good way to convey the message but I get the general idea and agree that in order to make things happen you need money you can spend. FXO Boss already said this but he sort of went against himself when he gave out full HD stream for the FIS5. The gist of it is that many sponsors offer goods rather than money and promote things the viewers already know/own while the teams need to “spend money to make money”.
Right now I think it’s ok to offer a 360p stream and VODs for free because outside of America I don’t think it’s that common to pay for things via Paypal and so on, you’d lose many eyeballs. The point of charging right now should be to limit the quality/quantity of the product and then use the money to transfer from a community (based on voluntary work) to an industry (where people get paid for the work they do). For example Totalbiscuit having a short QnA with the subscriber chat. Good journalists should be paid, same as good chat/forum moderators and so on…
I’m still concerned if it’s a good idea to build up an industry around entertainment when countries suffer because there major industries don’t have the confidence to spend money to make money because of the financial recession. I’d rather see someone study and strive to fix American health care rather than make esports bigger because some things are just more important for the society. Personally I’d like to see a transition from the madness of constant supply and demand chase, yet there still are areas vital to the function of our society which would benefit from educated or simply hardworking people.
If you look around the world of sports, its quite rare that a team owner turns a huge profit; for the most part they are passionate fans that want to own a team as a hobby and have already made their livings well before becoming an owner, being an owner of a team and expecting to turn profits is like digging for fools gold. Sponsors and revenues with tournament prize is another story, if your a team owner, dont expect to be making a huge profit out of owning a team because for the most part unless u have a top end brand u wont be making money and to have a top end brand for the most part is because they put more money into their product so they get as much as they give in return~ What do team owners get from owning said team? well they are making a financial investment in a product they are fond of, they see people that share the same passion as them prosper, they use it as a tool of competition and finally they do it for city country, in this situation online its fan base and community, the dollars at the end is more like the hardwork and good fortunes for working hard and being called the best at what they do!
On February 12 2012 15:13 nt-rAven wrote: If you look around the world of sports, its quite rare that a team owner turns a huge profit; for the most part they are passionate fans that want to own a team as a hobby and have already made their livings well before becoming an owner, being an owner of a team and expecting to turn profits is like digging for fools gold. Sponsors and revenues with tournament prize is another story, if your a team owner, dont expect to be making a huge profit out of owning a team because for the most part unless u have a top end brand u wont be making money and to have a top end brand for the most part is because they put more money into their product so they get as much as they give in return~ What do team owners get from owning said team? well they are making a financial investment in a product they are fond of, they see people that share the same passion as them prosper, they use it as a tool of competition and finally they do it for city country, in this situation online its fan base and community, the dollars at the end is more like the hardwork and good fortunes for working hard and being called the best at what they do!
In some cases this is true. But some owners do turn enormous profits from ownership of pro sports teams. But for most you are correct most of the profit when owning a team comes from increasing the value of the team and the league so when the team is sold the owner profits. So in the long run the owners do make a profit if they invest just most don't on a year to year basis.
Ok guys.. So here it is, me being an asshole once again.
First of all, the idea of this thread is good. I like it.
But the thread is filled with so much misinformation and delusional comparisons and requests that it kind of turns into a fairytale rather than reality.
Firstly, if people think someone can live off stream revenue given that the CPM rates for e-sports streams is like 1/10th off of normal content streams, they are wrong. Doesn't matter who you are. To make decent income from streaming you need about 40k viewers concurrent.
Secondly, players don't get paid anywhere near the delusional amounts that are quoted various times in this thread.
No WAY did a team owner make millions per yr from e-sports. If they did they are most probably involved with the mafia??? Or something is up...
Subscriptions are the ONLY way to make quick revenue from e-sports and forcing them is going to eventually be the norm. It will come to the point where GSL will not let people watch if they haven't subscribed. And rightly so. Why the hell should someone who spends a solid 500k on equipment, let you watch for free? This doesn't apply to small start ups such as my own events. But something like GSL which is BETTER quality than TV (if you have HQ) does not belong on free to air. And you do not DESERVE to watch it for free. Alot of time, effort money and skill has gone into their production. That being said, most people do subscribe to their content.. Rightly so.
If you want to look at the future and monetizing e-sports. First the excess of low quality content has to disappear.. The standards have to be alot higher for new starts, and its starting to happen. The problem is the cost of starting something like GSL is almost at 1 million dollars. (equipment from scratch, staffing, tech experts, studio, maintainence, decoration). With that as the budget, there is maybe 1 organisation who can keep up with GSL.. That is IPL. But IPL is taking it easy and slowly which is the right thing to do. Eventually they will kick things up to a higher level, and you will be charged for it. Again if the quality is high enough, i say go for it.
The next step in monetization is having something that can actually be sold as high quality merchandise.. Not stupid little gimmicky things. But real products. This will happen eventually , but again first the people who take advantage of a 'boom bust' market have to be shaken out. Once this happens a few solid startups with good quality merch will move forward and the industry will have another means of making money.. Endorsements. For instance, "you can sell a shirt on my name on it for 20% royalties"..
Finally, as I have stated before, until money is pumped into the RIGHT hands, e-sports will always remain oddly out of place. Personalities belong in the personality section, players in the player section, and there shouldn't be anything in between. The person who gets paid the most money in e-sports should be the person who wins the most titles. Not some guy who says FUCK alot on his stream (no i dont talk about destiny, so flame someone else).
If the e-sports community wants to be taken seriously, they need to become fans of those who take it seriously. When that happens the sponsors will come, the merch will come and the royalties will come. The circle will begin. Until then, its just a bit of a mess with some easy money for some people, and financial ruin for others.
(Before you accuse me of being salty, remember I make my money from elsewhere... I just like e-sports and the exposure it gives my company).
Have fun..
FXOBoss
P.S I hope GSL makes it pay per view only in the next 3 months....
I don't know why people strive to make it like the UFC or WWE or what the fuck not, it's a backwards striving business model. We should take after things like Google or Facebook or Youtube. Embrace the internet way of doing shit, not go back to old school PPV models.
Take Iphone/Android games for example, do you know what brings in more cash, the free version of WordFEUD or AngryBirds or the pay version? Pretty easy to guess, it's the free one with some minor advertisments. Altho I do think things like the GSL(actually ONLY GSL atm) is worth the couple of dollars/month I don't think much else holds up to the standards of "I want to pay for this", to be quite honest I'd rather pay for HSC than IPL or NASL or such and MAYBE Dreamhack because they have good productions and I have some national pride =).
I'd actually think of paying for GSL of Gomplayer wasn't such a complete pain in my ass. Every time I have the gall to try and watch some GSL apparently it's got other ideas.
I think if Jerith said what FXOBoss just said, the way he said it, people probably wouldn't be losing their minds so much here. He's right though. The bad tourneys need to disappear and whoever is going to step up to the table needs to put their big-boy pants on.
On February 12 2012 18:41 Rylaji wrote: I don't know why people strive to make it like the UFC or WWE or what the fuck not, it's a backwards striving business model. We should take after things like Google or Facebook or Youtube. Embrace the internet way of doing shit, not go back to old school PPV models.
Take Iphone/Android games for example, do you know what brings in more cash, the free version of WordFEUD or AngryBirds or the pay version? Pretty easy to guess, it's the free one with some minor advertisments. Altho I do think things like the GSL(actually ONLY GSL atm) is worth the couple of dollars/month I don't think much else holds up to the standards of "I want to pay for this", to be quite honest I'd rather pay for HSC than IPL or NASL or such and MAYBE Dreamhack because they have good productions and I have some national pride =).
Do you seriously think 300 million people are going to tune into a Sc2 stream.. or any e-sports stream for that matter... Facebook youtube, google. They all get BILLIONS of hits per minute....
Teamliquid is the biggest e-sports sites on the net as far as I can see. And its been around as long as facebook. And its traffic is as big as it will ever be without the business model becoming a huge cluster f...
Youtube facebook and google is also user generated content.. And is not the same as e-sports or television.
But you do NOT have a product you can sell like that. It's easy to say "yeah, we need this much money or this doesn't work for us". You can use terms like deserving and entitlement all you want, but they don't mean anything because you can't sell what you're giving for free.
The ONLY way you can appeal to fans is by saying "if you want esports to succeed, you have to pay up". You're basically appealing to our sympathy and passion as fans, instead of offering a product which is appealing in and of itself. And you can't build a sustainable business on sympathy, that approach can only take you so far - about as far as it has right now, but I wouldn't push it any further than that.
There will always be free SC2 in abundance, and leagues and tournaments that stay 100% free will thrive. There will always be tournaments like Shoutcraft Invitational, which nearly matched MLG's prize pool last year and can get any player in the world to participate in it, and if the major organizations adopt subscription models, there will be more smart people who realize they can run an online tournament/league that will rack up the viewership with a relatively minor investment. Needless to say, less than legal ways of acquiring big tournament VODs will also become popular, it's something that every part of entertainment industry has to deal with and take into account.
Like someone said earlier, if people believe in the subscription or PPV models - go ahead and try it. I think it would be suicidal for GOM to even attempt something like that as they're already under threat of becoming irrelevant in Korea the moment the big boys set their sights on SC2, but what do I know, right? I'm sure it will all work out for the best.
People shot me down before saying it was a stupid idea, but I still think e-sports betting would be an incredibly easy way to monetise SC2.
It would be so easy to implement, very little cost. Massive returns. And it would make organisers ALOT of money. Even from us, high schoolers and university students, because even we like to bet larger than we pay for streaming.
Oh, and there are sports betting websites already making HEAPS of money off of SC2 tournaments sports betting. So I say subsidise tournaments with that money instead of lining the pockets of some web multi-millionaire.
UFC didn't start out as a well-greased marketing machine like it is now. The problem is that E-Sports is a grass-roots effort outside of Korea at the moment, and like pretty much all grass-roots 'sports' with proportionately small following when compared to the UFC some entrepreneurs will go bust trying to make it work as a money generator.
On February 12 2012 18:27 FXOpen wrote: Ok guys.. So here it is, me being an asshole once again.
First of all, the idea of this thread is good. I like it.
But the thread is filled with so much misinformation and delusional comparisons and requests that it kind of turns into a fairytale rather than reality.
Firstly, if people think someone can live off stream revenue given that the CPM rates for e-sports streams is like 1/10th off of normal content streams, they are wrong. Doesn't matter who you are. To make decent income from streaming you need about 40k viewers concurrent.
...
I`m always grateful to read posts by people who are deeply involved in the eSport industry and especially you are very open with the community. much appreciated. But here you are wrong. If you have enough viewers you can make a living off of streaming. Here is a screenshot taken from the stream of a league of legends player (Hotshotgg) who often has 10k viewers on his stream and makes excellent money.
I personally have serious doubts if I want ESPORTS to become really big and mainstream. I would prefer the grassroots type of ESPORTS we've had for a long time, where monetary interests aren't necessarily the driving force for everything. The more mainstream ESPORTS becomes the more dumbed down it will become aswell, we've seen the trend already from SC1 -> SC2, DoTA -> LoL, Quake -> Call of Duty, PC -> Console etc(some games are good on console, not FPS games though) . I'm not calling people who play those games/platforms dumb but they are simplified games to reach a broader audience tbh.
We also see the trend in commentating, more mainstream means more color commentators who don't actually know the game but are good at hyping every little thing going on. I much prefer Waaaghtv in WC3 to streams in SC2, where I could watch games live while controlling the camera myself, being able to watch whatever I want. Streams = monetized entertainment for the masses, Waaaghtv = grassroots entertainment for passionate gaming fans(very generalized, sure).
I'm convinced grassroots ESPORTS and mainstream ESPORTS can't coexist and both do well, it's one or the other. For me as a casual "hardcore" gamer with no ambitions of doing gaming for a living, I mostly see downsides to ESPORTS becoming mainstream and driven by commercial interests.
On February 12 2012 18:27 FXOpen wrote: Ok guys.. So here it is, me being an asshole once again.
First of all, the idea of this thread is good. I like it.
But the thread is filled with so much misinformation and delusional comparisons and requests that it kind of turns into a fairytale rather than reality.
Firstly, if people think someone can live off stream revenue given that the CPM rates for e-sports streams is like 1/10th off of normal content streams, they are wrong. Doesn't matter who you are. To make decent income from streaming you need about 40k viewers concurrent.
Secondly, players don't get paid anywhere near the delusional amounts that are quoted various times in this thread.
No WAY did a team owner make millions per yr from e-sports. If they did they are most probably involved with the mafia??? Or something is up...
Subscriptions are the ONLY way to make quick revenue from e-sports and forcing them is going to eventually be the norm. It will come to the point where GSL will not let people watch if they haven't subscribed. And rightly so. Why the hell should someone who spends a solid 500k on equipment, let you watch for free? This doesn't apply to small start ups such as my own events. But something like GSL which is BETTER quality than TV (if you have HQ) does not belong on free to air. And you do not DESERVE to watch it for free. Alot of time, effort money and skill has gone into their production. That being said, most people do subscribe to their content.. Rightly so.
If you want to look at the future and monetizing e-sports. First the excess of low quality content has to disappear.. The standards have to be alot higher for new starts, and its starting to happen. The problem is the cost of starting something like GSL is almost at 1 million dollars. (equipment from scratch, staffing, tech experts, studio, maintainence, decoration). With that as the budget, there is maybe 1 organisation who can keep up with GSL.. That is IPL. But IPL is taking it easy and slowly which is the right thing to do. Eventually they will kick things up to a higher level, and you will be charged for it. Again if the quality is high enough, i say go for it.
The next step in monetization is having something that can actually be sold as high quality merchandise.. Not stupid little gimmicky things. But real products. This will happen eventually , but again first the people who take advantage of a 'boom bust' market have to be shaken out. Once this happens a few solid startups with good quality merch will move forward and the industry will have another means of making money.. Endorsements. For instance, "you can sell a shirt on my name on it for 20% royalties"..
Finally, as I have stated before, until money is pumped into the RIGHT hands, e-sports will always remain oddly out of place. Personalities belong in the personality section, players in the player section, and there shouldn't be anything in between. The person who gets paid the most money in e-sports should be the person who wins the most titles. Not some guy who says FUCK alot on his stream (no i dont talk about destiny, so flame someone else).
If the e-sports community wants to be taken seriously, they need to become fans of those who take it seriously. When that happens the sponsors will come, the merch will come and the royalties will come. The circle will begin. Until then, its just a bit of a mess with some easy money for some people, and financial ruin for others.
(Before you accuse me of being salty, remember I make my money from elsewhere... I just like e-sports and the exposure it gives my company).
Have fun..
FXOBoss
P.S I hope GSL makes it pay per view only in the next 3 months....
This is totally bogus considering BW would never have gotten to the point where companies like Samsung and CJ are sponsoring it if kespa had ever charged viewers to watch. It's kind of weird coming from you since FXO is the only SC2 team named after its sponsor like BW teams.
On February 10 2012 23:12 Zax19 wrote: The rant itself is not a good way to convey the message but I get the general idea and agree that in order to make things happen you need money you can spend. FXO Boss already said this but he sort of went against himself when he gave out full HD stream for the FIS5. The gist of it is that many sponsors offer goods rather than money and promote things the viewers already know/own while the teams need to “spend money to make money”.
Right now I think it’s ok to offer a 360p stream and VODs for free because outside of America I don’t think it’s that common to pay for things via Paypal and so on, you’d lose many eyeballs. The point of charging right now should be to limit the quality/quantity of the product and then use the money to transfer from a community (based on voluntary work) to an industry (where people get paid for the work they do). For example Totalbiscuit having a short QnA with the subscriber chat. Good journalists should be paid, same as good chat/forum moderators and so on…
I’m still concerned if it’s a good idea to build up an industry around entertainment when countries suffer because there major industries don’t have the confidence to spend money to make money because of the financial recession. I’d rather see someone study and strive to fix American health care rather than make esports bigger because some things are just more important for the society. Personally I’d like to see a transition from the madness of constant supply and demand chase, yet there still are areas vital to the function of our society which would benefit from educated or simply hardworking people.
HD stream is free in FIS ... Sub is optional..
...Yes, that was the point . Meaning you'd like companies to support teams financially but then you decide to lose money on subscriptions by giving out HD for free. Make the people pay for HD. It's not an insult to them, you deserve to get paid and only total A-holes would have anything against it. I guess you think your content is not good enough to demand money for HD? That's silly, it's more than enough! :D
I think this all comes down to what a person feels e-sports should amount to. If you are one of those people that sees SC2 as a hobby for all involved then of course content should be largely free. Sure some people make a living with their hobbies but it is a come what may scenario. If you are one of the people that believes e-sports should be a viable profession then monetizing is inevitable. For such an outcome there would have to be a HUGE influx of cash not just for events but also for teams so they could provide what we all expect from good employers (management, salaries, financial benefits, medical benefits, etc.).
If I were to give my opinion I think we will end up in a place between the two (very similar to BW) where the top dogs earn big money including the benefits I mentioned and 99% of other pros will make practically nothing. Although the onset of stream income may reduce the disparity somewhat.
Paying of HQ is oky, paying for fast loading/early uploaded vod is oky Paying for all the content is not, and it will drive people away, up until the point where you will not have enough people following the scene for teams to get money from sponsors = > no more teams = > no more players => no more MLG/IPL/GSL... w.e + Show Spoiler +
Isn't that what is happening in korea after all ? There are around 500k sc2 players but a korean top tier team makes as much as an mid tier global team since GOM content is pay to view and they don't allow things such as barcrafts ... might be bs, but i heard comments about the pay for view being the reason why sc2 isn't blowing up all that much there.
So to make things short: 1 You have payed HQ... its fine but its almost like a "donation" since seeing tasteless face in HD isn't all that much for 25$ 2 You have payed VoD/HQ/Payed member only events ( like GOM )... Its fine but you might alienate some people if they fell like there is not actual way to watch the league comfortably without paying ( also, there is piracy in case of gom vods/chines vods for free.... etc )... basically you risk losing viewers and not actually gaining any income unless there is a lack of other leagues/you have higher quality content ( which costs money ) 3 Everything is payed... and i have mentioned the reason why it is bad
You have to remember that a shit load of the audience are college students/teens/young people who might not have 30$ to throw at every event once a moth or every few months. Quite frankly i believe that if they want to cut on something... cut on casters, if the rumors are true that they make as much as they do ( no official number released ... cuz hey guys, lets keep it secret ), i hardly believe anyone would mind mid tier casters as long as they are fluent in English and have knowledge of the game... just get 2 pros to commentate for free for fucks sake.
And lastly you have to ask: Why are the number not released ? I could get behind MLG ( hell a lot of the community could ) if they actually released there profit/spendings ( aka - caster cost payment + transport + hotel : X, korean transport + hotel cost : Y, Crew payment: Z, Hiring the place + the PCs........etc ) Even more ... why aren't the player salary released ? Give the community and idea about how much you average Joe makes so that the community can decide if they still support tournaments that go for the " winner takes 100k" model rather than IEM model " we give you hotel room + transport and a minimum of 250 prize if you qualify".
i don't think eSports is large enough in the western to actually make money off a subscription model. I would never pay for SC2 vods. I rather watch high level amateurs streaming for free than pay a fee to watch a single tourney. The truth is, that e-sports is just not big enough to really support a big number of professional players. There is ton of free content, so there is no need to pay for. If the free content is taken away, SC2 popularity will vanish completely.
On February 10 2012 23:12 Zax19 wrote: The rant itself is not a good way to convey the message but I get the general idea and agree that in order to make things happen you need money you can spend. FXO Boss already said this but he sort of went against himself when he gave out full HD stream for the FIS5. The gist of it is that many sponsors offer goods rather than money and promote things the viewers already know/own while the teams need to “spend money to make money”.
Right now I think it’s ok to offer a 360p stream and VODs for free because outside of America I don’t think it’s that common to pay for things via Paypal and so on, you’d lose many eyeballs. The point of charging right now should be to limit the quality/quantity of the product and then use the money to transfer from a community (based on voluntary work) to an industry (where people get paid for the work they do). For example Totalbiscuit having a short QnA with the subscriber chat. Good journalists should be paid, same as good chat/forum moderators and so on…
I’m still concerned if it’s a good idea to build up an industry around entertainment when countries suffer because there major industries don’t have the confidence to spend money to make money because of the financial recession. I’d rather see someone study and strive to fix American health care rather than make esports bigger because some things are just more important for the society. Personally I’d like to see a transition from the madness of constant supply and demand chase, yet there still are areas vital to the function of our society which would benefit from educated or simply hardworking people.
HD stream is free in FIS ... Sub is optional..
...Yes, that was the point . Meaning you'd like companies to support teams financially but then you decide to lose money on subscriptions by giving out HD for free. Make the people pay for HD. It's not an insult to them, you deserve to get paid and only total A-holes would have anything against it. I guess you think your content is not good enough to demand money for HD? That's silly, it's more than enough! :D
It does not make sense to rant over people not buying a product. If you can't sell your product, than obviously people decide its not worth buying it. A monetarization cannot be "management driven". If there is enough demand, the monetarization will come, else it will stay at the level it is today (the likely scenario). I think it will take way more time to grow eSports (and it took years in Korea also)
i think only gsl and ipl and maybe nasl even deserves to charge viewers a fee. i think the "live is free" format is great. and maybe the "selected games are free" is also good.
On February 12 2012 18:27 FXOpen wrote: Ok guys.. So here it is, me being an asshole once again.
First of all, the idea of this thread is good. I like it.
But the thread is filled with so much misinformation and delusional comparisons and requests that it kind of turns into a fairytale rather than reality.
Firstly, if people think someone can live off stream revenue given that the CPM rates for e-sports streams is like 1/10th off of normal content streams, they are wrong. Doesn't matter who you are. To make decent income from streaming you need about 40k viewers concurrent.
Secondly, players don't get paid anywhere near the delusional amounts that are quoted various times in this thread.
No WAY did a team owner make millions per yr from e-sports. If they did they are most probably involved with the mafia??? Or something is up...
Subscriptions are the ONLY way to make quick revenue from e-sports and forcing them is going to eventually be the norm. It will come to the point where GSL will not let people watch if they haven't subscribed. And rightly so. Why the hell should someone who spends a solid 500k on equipment, let you watch for free? This doesn't apply to small start ups such as my own events. But something like GSL which is BETTER quality than TV (if you have HQ) does not belong on free to air. And you do not DESERVE to watch it for free. Alot of time, effort money and skill has gone into their production. That being said, most people do subscribe to their content.. Rightly so.
If you want to look at the future and monetizing e-sports. First the excess of low quality content has to disappear.. The standards have to be alot higher for new starts, and its starting to happen. The problem is the cost of starting something like GSL is almost at 1 million dollars. (equipment from scratch, staffing, tech experts, studio, maintainence, decoration). With that as the budget, there is maybe 1 organisation who can keep up with GSL.. That is IPL. But IPL is taking it easy and slowly which is the right thing to do. Eventually they will kick things up to a higher level, and you will be charged for it. Again if the quality is high enough, i say go for it.
The next step in monetization is having something that can actually be sold as high quality merchandise.. Not stupid little gimmicky things. But real products. This will happen eventually , but again first the people who take advantage of a 'boom bust' market have to be shaken out. Once this happens a few solid startups with good quality merch will move forward and the industry will have another means of making money.. Endorsements. For instance, "you can sell a shirt on my name on it for 20% royalties"..
Finally, as I have stated before, until money is pumped into the RIGHT hands, e-sports will always remain oddly out of place. Personalities belong in the personality section, players in the player section, and there shouldn't be anything in between. The person who gets paid the most money in e-sports should be the person who wins the most titles. Not some guy who says FUCK alot on his stream (no i dont talk about destiny, so flame someone else).
If the e-sports community wants to be taken seriously, they need to become fans of those who take it seriously. When that happens the sponsors will come, the merch will come and the royalties will come. The circle will begin. Until then, its just a bit of a mess with some easy money for some people, and financial ruin for others.
(Before you accuse me of being salty, remember I make my money from elsewhere... I just like e-sports and the exposure it gives my company).
Have fun..
FXOBoss
P.S I hope GSL makes it pay per view only in the next 3 months....
sallary in sport has never been a simple 1;1 correlation with skill. and i know that you know this, so im suprised your saying the guy who wins the most should be paid the most. i also dont believe the whole industry will go to ppv. in a world of ppv the only guy running free to watch shows will get huge numbers, that isnt to say ppv wont become bigger. there will be a balance between the number of f2w and ppv content providers, this much is pretty much a given fact. look at any industry or any dove/hawk situation, i cant think of a single one where the system is balanced with 100% of 1 product.
If the e-sports community wants to be taken seriously, they need to become fans of those who take it seriously. When that happens the sponsors will come, the merch will come and the royalties will come. The circle will begin. Until then, its just a bit of a mess with some easy money for some people, and financial ruin for others.
(Before you accuse me of being salty, remember I make my money from elsewhere... I just like e-sports and the exposure it gives my company).
Have fun..
FXOBoss
P.S I hope GSL makes it pay per view only in the next 3 months....
no no no. it is not my job to pay money to something so they can get big sponsored budget and expand...
what kind of CEO fairytale is this?
its not our job to give you money. its the job of the companies we buy shit from. ill just repeat this and repeat this the same way others tell me to give them money for no reason.
which makes 1220 Euros. on top of this i drink monster energy about 2 cans a weekend.
and i have to let people accusing me of not spending enough money?! who the fuck do you guys think you are?! and if thats not enough i am very sorry esports but esports can go fuck itself because im not a money shitting monkey.
you really hit a nerve.. i dont mean it i love you babe.
On February 12 2012 18:27 FXOpen wrote: Ok guys.. So here it is, me being an asshole once again.
First of all, the idea of this thread is good. I like it.
But the thread is filled with so much misinformation and delusional comparisons and requests that it kind of turns into a fairytale rather than reality.
Firstly, if people think someone can live off stream revenue given that the CPM rates for e-sports streams is like 1/10th off of normal content streams, they are wrong. Doesn't matter who you are. To make decent income from streaming you need about 40k viewers concurrent.
Secondly, players don't get paid anywhere near the delusional amounts that are quoted various times in this thread.
No WAY did a team owner make millions per yr from e-sports. If they did they are most probably involved with the mafia??? Or something is up...
Subscriptions are the ONLY way to make quick revenue from e-sports and forcing them is going to eventually be the norm. It will come to the point where GSL will not let people watch if they haven't subscribed. And rightly so. Why the hell should someone who spends a solid 500k on equipment, let you watch for free? This doesn't apply to small start ups such as my own events. But something like GSL which is BETTER quality than TV (if you have HQ) does not belong on free to air. And you do not DESERVE to watch it for free. Alot of time, effort money and skill has gone into their production. That being said, most people do subscribe to their content.. Rightly so.
If you want to look at the future and monetizing e-sports. First the excess of low quality content has to disappear.. The standards have to be alot higher for new starts, and its starting to happen. The problem is the cost of starting something like GSL is almost at 1 million dollars. (equipment from scratch, staffing, tech experts, studio, maintainence, decoration). With that as the budget, there is maybe 1 organisation who can keep up with GSL.. That is IPL. But IPL is taking it easy and slowly which is the right thing to do. Eventually they will kick things up to a higher level, and you will be charged for it. Again if the quality is high enough, i say go for it.
The next step in monetization is having something that can actually be sold as high quality merchandise.. Not stupid little gimmicky things. But real products. This will happen eventually , but again first the people who take advantage of a 'boom bust' market have to be shaken out. Once this happens a few solid startups with good quality merch will move forward and the industry will have another means of making money.. Endorsements. For instance, "you can sell a shirt on my name on it for 20% royalties"..
Finally, as I have stated before, until money is pumped into the RIGHT hands, e-sports will always remain oddly out of place. Personalities belong in the personality section, players in the player section, and there shouldn't be anything in between. The person who gets paid the most money in e-sports should be the person who wins the most titles. Not some guy who says FUCK alot on his stream (no i dont talk about destiny, so flame someone else).
If the e-sports community wants to be taken seriously, they need to become fans of those who take it seriously. When that happens the sponsors will come, the merch will come and the royalties will come. The circle will begin. Until then, its just a bit of a mess with some easy money for some people, and financial ruin for others.
(Before you accuse me of being salty, remember I make my money from elsewhere... I just like e-sports and the exposure it gives my company).
Have fun..
FXOBoss
P.S I hope GSL makes it pay per view only in the next 3 months....
I think there is no demand for the amount of quality you are trying to produce. Quite simple. You won't get enough money to finance those huge investments. For now i think most people are perfectly fine with the quality level of Imba.TV or Zotac,playhem etc. They have low prices and pretty low investments. That will work.
There is no room for big business and million dollar investments currently in ESports, get over it. It will probably never be there, because you can organize an online tourney with some 200$(+time) investment and will still get decent players + viewership. This is the internet, not TV. Its starcraft and not soccer.
If the e-sports community wants to be taken seriously, they need to become fans of those who take it seriously. When that happens the sponsors will come, the merch will come and the royalties will come. The circle will begin. Until then, its just a bit of a mess with some easy money for some people, and financial ruin for others.
(Before you accuse me of being salty, remember I make my money from elsewhere... I just like e-sports and the exposure it gives my company).
Have fun..
FXOBoss
P.S I hope GSL makes it pay per view only in the next 3 months....
no no no. it is not my job to pay money to something so they can get big sponsored budget and expand...
what kind of CEO fairytale is this?
its not our job to give you money. its the job of the companies we buy shit from. ill just repeat this and repeat this the same way others tell me to give them money for no reason.
which makes 1220 Euros. on top of this i drink monster energy about 2 cans a weekend.
and i have to let people accusing me of not spending enough money?! who the fuck do you guys think you are?! and if thats not enough i am very sorry esports but esports can go fuck itself because im not a money shitting monkey.
you really hit a nerve.. i dont mean it i love you babe.
I agree. We grow the scene by supporting the sponsors and that is no small feat. I would even go so far as to say that if they make sc2 tournaments scrictly PPV then they will kill the growth of esports (atleast in sc2). How exactly do you get new people interested in something that they can't watch without first having to bring out the credit card and pay for ONE of the 4 different tournaments.
The point about all esports that is so attractive about it is that it's so accessible. Imagine if LoL tournament streams were PPV and riot didn't embed the streams etc in their client / on their website. Do you really think they would have anywhere close to the viewership they've had?
The esports experience is all about going on twitter, seeing a tournament going on. Checking out the link and boom you are watching top level players in one of your favorite games. If that dissapears from esports then I will too and many others with me probably.
PPV only. = Growth of competitive Starcraft will be stumped, possibly killed, as free streams are currently the only major way of getting people interested.
Not surprised to hear those statements coming from FXOBoss considering FXO's business model is derivatives/complex financial instruments, rather than producing something of value.
On February 12 2012 19:09 harharhar wrote: People shot me down before saying it was a stupid idea, but I still think e-sports betting would be an incredibly easy way to monetise SC2.
It would be so easy to implement, very little cost. Massive returns. And it would make organisers ALOT of money. Even from us, high schoolers and university students, because even we like to bet larger than we pay for streaming.
Oh, and there are sports betting websites already making HEAPS of money off of SC2 tournaments sports betting. So I say subsidise tournaments with that money instead of lining the pockets of some web multi-millionaire.
It's for a good cause! =)
Your first post was to encourage young people to gamble with esport as a medium and you still haven't figured out why people shot you down, and you are repeating yourself again in your second post. How dense are you? There are plenty of ways to make lots of money and not all of them are ethically acceptable, least of all encouraging kids to BET ON VIDEO GAMES.
Subscriptions are the ONLY way to make quick revenue from e-sports and forcing them is going to eventually be the norm. It will come to the point where GSL will not let people watch if they haven't subscribed. And rightly so. Why the hell should someone who spends a solid 500k on equipment, let you watch for free? This doesn't apply to small start ups such as my own events. But something like GSL which is BETTER quality than TV (if you have HQ) does not belong on free to air. And you do not DESERVE to watch it for free. Alot of time, effort money and skill has gone into their production. That being said, most people do subscribe to their content.. Rightly so.
First, you don't have ANYTHING to tell about where GSL belongs to. It's up to gom if they want to charge 100k$ for it or let it be free. You do not DESERVE to make me pay for your product either. I'll buy them if I find them interesting.
Now, if subscription becomes the norm for ALL stream, people will just stop watching. I mean, I started watching some random games on youtube, then moved on to watch tournament streams and then I subscribed to the GSL. If you remove all the free content, you won't get anybody new interested into paying for SC2 content.
Now the other problem is one of demand. The GSL is already running somehow year-long (Code A, Code S, GSTL). So I can watch 1h of high-quality SC2 per day. I don't really want/have the time to watch more. It's not I don't want to pay more, it's just I have no use for it. But I sometime watch some foreign tournament streams. If they stop being free, I'll just stop watching them and you'll loose advertisement money.
Also, you are completely wrong on the business side of things. A LOT of tech start-ups company started up with free products : Google, Facebook, Linkedin, ... I could go on and listen hundred of succesful companies that make money out of ad-sponsored products. And I can guarantee you that running Google or Facebook cost more than the 500k$ needed to setup a studio :-)
I mean, by reading this thread, you can clearly see that there are some people that are willing to pay for some SC2 shows, but that they don't want to pay for everything. Now, these people are your consumers and if you want to run a SC2-related business, it's up to you to find a business model that allow you to make a living and satisfy your consumer. Telling your consumer what they should do is a really, really bad idea imho.
On February 12 2012 23:49 Titorelli wrote: How can ppl even compare the likes of Facebook or Google with SC2 or GSL LOL?!?!? Pls (re-)read FXOBosses GREAT post if you just dont get it!
On February 12 2012 18:27 FXOpen wrote: Ok guys.. So here it is, me being an asshole once again.
First of all, the idea of this thread is good. I like it.
But the thread is filled with so much misinformation and delusional comparisons and requests that it kind of turns into a fairytale rather than reality.
Firstly, if people think someone can live off stream revenue given that the CPM rates for e-sports streams is like 1/10th off of normal content streams, they are wrong. Doesn't matter who you are. To make decent income from streaming you need about 40k viewers concurrent.
...
I`m always grateful to read posts by people who are deeply involved in the eSport industry and especially you are very open with the community. much appreciated. But here you are wrong. If you have enough viewers you can make a living off of streaming. Here is a screenshot taken from the stream of a league of legends player (Hotshotgg) who often has 10k viewers on his stream and makes excellent money.
It's funny how even people like Boss argue against the most basic principles of economics and consumer behaviour. To my knowledge no company has made profits by forcing something on its consumers without some monopoly. I also think that even GSL and such are still startups in relative terms. Do people really believe the actual hardcore fanbase for SC2 is that big? We need tons more internal numbers before saying anything of the like. Relative subscription rates for GOM, who bought which package...it's just not there for anybody but GOM, not even for Boss. You can talk all day, there's no basis. All kinds of different businesses have taken all kinds of different paths to success or failure. There are professionals in the most niche of sports and there are companies who live off the broadcasting. E-sports history tells us that making predictions is waaaay harder than it might seem even to the most experienced business people. Remember CS in 2000? Stuff got serious. The huge CPL and what came of it. WCG growth and decline. Nothing so far points to a clear direction.
My very personal opinion is that Blizzard should back all of this. The whole thing is built around people consuming their product. They wouldn't even have to make profits, any money from it would just flow back into their marketing budget which is enough to run 10 GSLs and might return quite a bit more in long term effects. Kotick likes exploiting franchises at least annually, obviously keeping people playing and wanting the next installment should be a priority in marketing, yet they choose to randomly dish out advertisement instead of turning SC2 into an even bigger phenomenon. You can make that stuff a trend, you need the opinion leaders in gaming, the hardcore crowd. I alone got like a dozen people to at least try SC2, about half of them bought it...and I'm far from the extremely hardcore crowd. I didn't pay for any events, yet I made SC2 grow. This is what should really matter here because those were at least 250$ worth of sales. Do I have to mention how multiplication and powers work? If that doesn't happen we can talk all day but SC2 won't get anywhere near the point it could go. Game lifespans are too short. Even BW had a dozen years to grow and still remained niche. You can't get the financial backing to make something explode without Blizzard's involvement.
Organisations like ESL do most stuff right. They don't go overboard on prize money, they keep the production quality up while travelling around the world and most important of all, they hedge their risks. Have multiple games in your leagues, guys, it doesn't hurt anybody. Why get all this setup only for SC2 when you could run CS, LoL, DotA and a dozen more tournaments with the same equipment? That's just wasting potential with your fixed costs being quite a huge chunk of your whole financial structure.
Subscriptions are the ONLY way to make quick revenue from e-sports and forcing them is going to eventually be the norm. It will come to the point where GSL will not let people watch if they haven't subscribed. And rightly so. Why the hell should someone who spends a solid 500k on equipment, let you watch for free? This doesn't apply to small start ups such as my own events. But something like GSL which is BETTER quality than TV (if you have HQ) does not belong on free to air. And you do not DESERVE to watch it for free. Alot of time, effort money and skill has gone into their production. That being said, most people do subscribe to their content.. Rightly so.
First, you don't have ANYTHING to tell about where GSL belongs to. It's up to gom if they want to charge 100k$ for it or let it be free. You do not DESERVE to make me pay for your product either. I'll buy them if I find them interesting.
Now, if subscription becomes the norm for ALL stream, people will just stop watching. I mean, I started watching some random games on youtube, then moved on to watch tournament streams and then I subscribed to the GSL. If you remove all the free content, you won't get anybody new interested into paying for SC2 content.
Now the other problem is one of demand. The GSL is already running somehow year-long (Code A, Code S, GSTL). So I can watch 1h of high-quality SC2 per day. I don't really want/have the time to watch more. It's not I don't want to pay more, it's just I have no use for it. But I sometime watch some foreign tournament streams. If they stop being free, I'll just stop watching them and you'll loose advertisement money.
Also, you are completely wrong on the business side of things. A LOT of tech start-ups company started up with free products : Google, Facebook, Linkedin, ... I could go on and listen hundred of succesful companies that make money out of ad-sponsored products. And I can guarantee you that running Google or Facebook cost more than the 500k$ needed to setup a studio :-)
I mean, by reading this thread, you can clearly see that there are some people that are willing to pay for some SC2 shows, but that they don't want to pay for everything. Now, these people are your consumers and if you want to run a SC2-related business, it's up to you to find a business model that allow you to make a living and satisfy your consumer. Telling your consumer what they should do is a really, really bad idea imho.
As stated before, if e-sports has 300million views per minute, I will happily bow down to comparing them to facebook google and youtube. That makes ad revenue easily viable for successful business.
Do the math on supporting a business with 3.50-4.50 CPM on only major countries. Then tell me that e-sports and facebook are one in the same.
As I stated earlier, for e-sports business to be successful on ad revenue alone (Free media) you need 50k viewers at once to make it worth while. Which very very few are doing. Exposure is valuable if you use it properly, which its not being done. And a sponsorship model only works if you have other forms of revenue.
Its entirely possible to get sponsorship + fee + ad based model to work and be lucrative.
Products should be very much worth while to purchase before you purcahse them. For instance FXOpen's events ARE NOT ready to be purchase only.. And it will be a year or two until they are at that level. We have equipment to buy staff to hire etc etc etc.. GSL however, has quality better than television. IF you dont want to pay for it, I suggest you dont watch it, because eventually you most probably will have to pay for it. The quality is too good to be free.
The holier than now mentality of "supporting e-sports" is only a phrase used. There are plenty of people who actively support e-sports, but the majority do not. They use adblocker, they tune out when there is a 2 minute delay or break on a live stream, they bitch they moan they groan. You only have to search through countless reddit and TL threads to know this.
The community itself drops the average CPM rate by doing what they do best, complain about something they dont like. It might even be the loud minority, but still the noise makes a financial effect on the industry.
For someone to say "hey, i deserve this for free, and I should be allowed to use adblock" is totally stupid and essentially I would push for such person to be banned from every stream on the planet (although thats never going to happen).
I stick to my guns in saying that if you aren't prepared to pay for HIGH QUALITY content, such as the current GSL (not season 1 2 or 3) then you should probably stop viewing the GSL all together because fro them to keep a free stream in the 2nd half of this year would be financially stupid for them. The quality of games and production is too high to give for free...
Again, this would all change if you could provide 300 million viewers per minute to their stream. Then they can be happy to provide 0.20 cpm ads to all its viewers and make good money.
GSL has solid combined subscription/add based business model that seems to be working fine for them and they produce more high quality content than most viewers have time to watch. I pay for GSL and its well worth my money and I get more high quality starcraft than I need.
Any other company whining about people not being willing to pay for their product are likely just producing an inferior product in an over saturated market. Why would I pay for a tournament MLG when (a) my demand for SC2 is filled by GSL and (b) MLG is lower quality in almost every way?
Now if lordJerith wants to make a superior product to the GSL and charge for it I'd happily buy his product over the GSL if it offered better value.
It seems like most of this shit is entrepreneurs blaming their customer base for their failure to win in the marketplace which is just so ridiculous I don't even know what to say. It would be like someone making a really shitty car and blaming the consumer for not being willing to pay for it like they pay for a toyota.
What makes you believe GSL is enough of a high quality product to attract enough customers to survive if they adopted a subscription model (and for the number of customers not to slowly drop off over time)?
It all comes down to whether GOM believes they can sell what they're currently offering for free or not and whether they will take a risk to find out. IMO they can't sell it, not with the abundance of completely free content available at all times.
On February 13 2012 00:00 Timerly wrote: It's funny how even people like Boss argue against the most basic principles of economics and consumer behaviour. To my knowledge no company has made profits by forcing something on its consumers without some monopoly. I also think that even GSL and such are still startups in relative terms. Do people really believe the actual hardcore fanbase for SC2 is that big? We need tons more internal numbers before saying anything of the like. Relative subscription rates for GOM, who bought which package...it's just not there for anybody but GOM, not even for Boss. You can talk all day, there's no basis. All kinds of different businesses have taken all kinds of different paths to success or failure. There are professionals in the most niche of sports and there are companies who live off the broadcasting. E-sports history tells us that making predictions is waaaay harder than it might seem even to the most experienced business people. Remember CS in 2000? Stuff got serious. The huge CPL and what came of it. WCG growth and decline. Nothing so far points to a clear direction.
My very personal opinion is that Blizzard should back all of this. The whole thing is built around people consuming their product. They wouldn't even have to make profits, any money from it would just flow back into their marketing budget which is enough to run 10 GSLs and might return quite a bit more in long term effects. Kotick likes exploiting franchises at least annually, obviously keeping people playing and wanting the next installment should be a priority in marketing, yet they choose to randomly dish out advertisement instead of turning SC2 into an even bigger phenomenon. You can make that stuff a trend, you need the opinion leaders in gaming, the hardcore crowd. I alone got like a dozen people to at least try SC2, about half of them bought it...and I'm far from the extremely hardcore crowd. I didn't pay for any events, yet I made SC2 grow. This is what should really matter here because those were at least 250$ worth of sales. Do I have to mention how multiplication and powers work? If that doesn't happen we can talk all day but SC2 won't get anywhere near the point it could go. Game lifespans are too short. Even BW had a dozen years to grow and still remained niche. You can't get the financial backing to make something explode without Blizzard's involvement.
Organisations like ESL do most stuff right. They don't go overboard on prize money, they keep the production quality up while travelling around the world and most important of all, they hedge their risks. Have multiple games in your leagues, guys, it doesn't hurt anybody. Why get all this setup only for SC2 when you could run CS, LoL, DotA and a dozen more tournaments with the same equipment? That's just wasting potential with your fixed costs being quite a huge chunk of your whole financial structure.
SC2 numbers are indecline not increase. Viewer numbers are in decline (outside of korea). The korean scene is starting to grow a good viewerbase and you can notice this at the gom studio with more people venturing towards it. GOM has been providing a free stream for a long time, with no revenue at all entering their coffers. They provide a product more than worth the money it costs. They have given plenty to the community, answered to feed back for more than 12 months and adjusted to fit to the community. Their HQ stream is better than anything else out there and more stable, and they rarely have major stream issues of which they are quick to fix. They are endorsed by blizzard (they have rights to the korean sc2 monopoly) and SHOULD monetize on it to expand further for the viewing experience and to support the players who are struggling financially.
If they continue to provide it free, with no ad revenue (which subscriptions is more cost efficient) then they will inevitably implode if a sponsor pulls its funding. If they were to create a very affordable HQ m/m subscription, they will support the growth of their business, as well as the industry as a whole. I dont see why if there was funding for it, GOM wouldn't pick up other games and increase the standard of content quality across the broad. At the moment only sc2 has decent production and regular streamed events.
If GOM is going to do BUSINESS right, they need to monetize correctly, where there is money. There is currently very little money in the sponsorship market, there is no merchandise thats worth buying and ad revenue is extremely low to the point that its laughable. Cheap subscription is the best way for GOM to monetize. GOM being the only entity who has a 99.99% ready product for sale.
In no way to I compare GOM to FXO's event. It would be insulting GOM. FXO is no where near as established as gom, and its entirely why we do not do quality cuts, or content prevention, or anything else for those who subscribe. Its merely a way to dodge ads and win prizes. And until my product is close to goms, I would never force subscriptions or hurt those who don't subscribe (except subscriber only chat because sometimes chat goes nuts).
So yeh, we can talk about this again when my product is super HD and sexified like GOM's.
On February 13 2012 00:10 Talin wrote: What makes you believe GSL is enough of a high quality product to attract enough customers to survive if they adopted a subscription model (and for the number of customers not to slowly drop off over time)?
It all comes down to whether GOM believes they can sell what they're currently offering for free or not and whether they will take a risk to find out. IMO they can't sell it, not with the abundance of completely free content available at all times.
They already survive on subscriptions only. Do you get ads on your stream? No? Then they don't make money from you.
Subscriptions are the ONLY way to make quick revenue from e-sports and forcing them is going to eventually be the norm. It will come to the point where GSL will not let people watch if they haven't subscribed. And rightly so. Why the hell should someone who spends a solid 500k on equipment, let you watch for free? This doesn't apply to small start ups such as my own events. But something like GSL which is BETTER quality than TV (if you have HQ) does not belong on free to air. And you do not DESERVE to watch it for free. Alot of time, effort money and skill has gone into their production. That being said, most people do subscribe to their content.. Rightly so.
First, you don't have ANYTHING to tell about where GSL belongs to. It's up to gom if they want to charge 100k$ for it or let it be free. You do not DESERVE to make me pay for your product either. I'll buy them if I find them interesting.
Now, if subscription becomes the norm for ALL stream, people will just stop watching. I mean, I started watching some random games on youtube, then moved on to watch tournament streams and then I subscribed to the GSL. If you remove all the free content, you won't get anybody new interested into paying for SC2 content.
Now the other problem is one of demand. The GSL is already running somehow year-long (Code A, Code S, GSTL). So I can watch 1h of high-quality SC2 per day. I don't really want/have the time to watch more. It's not I don't want to pay more, it's just I have no use for it. But I sometime watch some foreign tournament streams. If they stop being free, I'll just stop watching them and you'll loose advertisement money.
Also, you are completely wrong on the business side of things. A LOT of tech start-ups company started up with free products : Google, Facebook, Linkedin, ... I could go on and listen hundred of succesful companies that make money out of ad-sponsored products. And I can guarantee you that running Google or Facebook cost more than the 500k$ needed to setup a studio :-)
I mean, by reading this thread, you can clearly see that there are some people that are willing to pay for some SC2 shows, but that they don't want to pay for everything. Now, these people are your consumers and if you want to run a SC2-related business, it's up to you to find a business model that allow you to make a living and satisfy your consumer. Telling your consumer what they should do is a really, really bad idea imho.
As stated before, if e-sports has 300million views per minute, I will happily bow down to comparing them to facebook google and youtube. That makes ad revenue easily viable for successful business.
Do the math on supporting a business with 3.50-4.50 CPM on only major countries. Then tell me that e-sports and facebook are one in the same.
As I stated earlier, for e-sports business to be successful on ad revenue alone (Free media) you need 50k viewers at once to make it worth while. Which very very few are doing. Exposure is valuable if you use it properly, which its not being done. And a sponsorship model only works if you have other forms of revenue.
Its entirely possible to get sponsorship + fee + ad based model to work and be lucrative.
Products should be very much worth while to purchase before you purcahse them. For instance FXOpen's events ARE NOT ready to be purchase only.. And it will be a year or two until they are at that level. We have equipment to buy staff to hire etc etc etc.. GSL however, has quality better than television. IF you dont want to pay for it, I suggest you dont watch it, because eventually you most probably will have to pay for it. The quality is too good to be free.
The holier than now mentality of "supporting e-sports" is only a phrase used. There are plenty of people who actively support e-sports, but the majority do not. They use adblocker, they tune out when there is a 2 minute delay or break on a live stream, they bitch they moan they groan. You only have to search through countless reddit and TL threads to know this.
The community itself drops the average CPM rate by doing what they do best, complain about something they dont like. It might even be the loud minority, but still the noise makes a financial effect on the industry.
For someone to say "hey, i deserve this for free, and I should be allowed to use adblock" is totally stupid and essentially I would push for such person to be banned from every stream on the planet (although thats never going to happen).
I stick to my guns in saying that if you aren't prepared to pay for HIGH QUALITY content, such as the current GSL (not season 1 2 or 3) then you should probably stop viewing the GSL all together because fro them to keep a free stream in the 2nd half of this year would be financially stupid for them. The quality of games and production is too high to give for free...
Again, this would all change if you could provide 300 million viewers per minute to their stream. Then they can be happy to provide 0.20 cpm ads to all its viewers and make good money.
Well, Facebook and Google started pretty small. I mean there are a lot of small startups (just go to techcrunch) that also manage to have free products. My point was that paid-only product is not the only way to go.
I agree that people claiming to support e-sport and using Adblock are being hypocrite. Now, as I said, I'm paying for GSL and many people are.
I think the most important thing is that I think it's normal to start small. As I said before, I think there also is a demand problem. Most of the people who are ready to pay for SC2 content are probably paying for the GSL (since it's the best available right now). The GSL provides a huge amount of matches and I don't think most people would have the time to watch GSL + another paid event. But there obviously is some room for some free streams that can fill the GSL blanks and also attract new players.
Now, I hope in some years, as the community growth, maybe you'll have enough people to sustain two, three or four GSL-like events with paid subscribers. But I don't think this time has come yet. In the meatime, I think going subscriber only would be kind of risky for any foreign tournament.
Also, maybe foreign tournaments could try to innovate. What about offering one stream per player + a main stream ? I would love being able to see the player screens and their movements in parallel. And I might definitely considering paying for that.
On February 13 2012 00:10 Talin wrote: What makes you believe GSL is enough of a high quality product to attract enough customers to survive if they adopted a subscription model (and for the number of customers not to slowly drop off over time)?
It all comes down to whether GOM believes they can sell what they're currently offering for free or not and whether they will take a risk to find out. IMO they can't sell it, not with the abundance of completely free content available at all times.
They already survive on subscriptions only. Do you get ads on your stream? No? Then they don't make money from you.
They don't make money, but the viewership is still important for their events to maintain their relevance on the scene. If the GSL suddenly shut down for everyone who doesn't have a subscription, the overall viewership would plummet, and over time this would make GSL less viewed, less discussed, less relevant, and eventually less appealing for current subscribers to maintain their subscription. Especially so if people can watch the same players in KSL or ESW or FXO events and various foreign events.
It can stagnate for some time at best, and if one day OGN decides to provide free content, they will be completely gutted.
On the other hand, by keeping the live stream free, they ensure at least some influx of new subscribers over time.
On February 13 2012 00:00 Timerly wrote: It's funny how even people like Boss argue against the most basic principles of economics and consumer behaviour. To my knowledge no company has made profits by forcing something on its consumers without some monopoly. I also think that even GSL and such are still startups in relative terms. Do people really believe the actual hardcore fanbase for SC2 is that big? We need tons more internal numbers before saying anything of the like. Relative subscription rates for GOM, who bought which package...it's just not there for anybody but GOM, not even for Boss. You can talk all day, there's no basis. All kinds of different businesses have taken all kinds of different paths to success or failure. There are professionals in the most niche of sports and there are companies who live off the broadcasting. E-sports history tells us that making predictions is waaaay harder than it might seem even to the most experienced business people. Remember CS in 2000? Stuff got serious. The huge CPL and what came of it. WCG growth and decline. Nothing so far points to a clear direction.
My very personal opinion is that Blizzard should back all of this. The whole thing is built around people consuming their product. They wouldn't even have to make profits, any money from it would just flow back into their marketing budget which is enough to run 10 GSLs and might return quite a bit more in long term effects. Kotick likes exploiting franchises at least annually, obviously keeping people playing and wanting the next installment should be a priority in marketing, yet they choose to randomly dish out advertisement instead of turning SC2 into an even bigger phenomenon. You can make that stuff a trend, you need the opinion leaders in gaming, the hardcore crowd. I alone got like a dozen people to at least try SC2, about half of them bought it...and I'm far from the extremely hardcore crowd. I didn't pay for any events, yet I made SC2 grow. This is what should really matter here because those were at least 250$ worth of sales. Do I have to mention how multiplication and powers work? If that doesn't happen we can talk all day but SC2 won't get anywhere near the point it could go. Game lifespans are too short. Even BW had a dozen years to grow and still remained niche. You can't get the financial backing to make something explode without Blizzard's involvement.
Organisations like ESL do most stuff right. They don't go overboard on prize money, they keep the production quality up while travelling around the world and most important of all, they hedge their risks. Have multiple games in your leagues, guys, it doesn't hurt anybody. Why get all this setup only for SC2 when you could run CS, LoL, DotA and a dozen more tournaments with the same equipment? That's just wasting potential with your fixed costs being quite a huge chunk of your whole financial structure.
SC2 numbers are indecline not increase. Viewer numbers are in decline (outside of korea). The korean scene is starting to grow a good viewerbase and you can notice this at the gom studio with more people venturing towards it. GOM has been providing a free stream for a long time, with no revenue at all entering their coffers. They provide a product more than worth the money it costs. They have given plenty to the community, answered to feed back for more than 12 months and adjusted to fit to the community. Their HQ stream is better than anything else out there and more stable, and they rarely have major stream issues of which they are quick to fix. They are endorsed by blizzard (they have rights to the korean sc2 monopoly) and SHOULD monetize on it to expand further for the viewing experience and to support the players who are struggling financially.
If they continue to provide it free, with no ad revenue (which subscriptions is more cost efficient) then they will inevitably implode if a sponsor pulls its funding. If they were to create a very affordable HQ m/m subscription, they will support the growth of their business, as well as the industry as a whole. I dont see why if there was funding for it, GOM wouldn't pick up other games and increase the standard of content quality across the broad. At the moment only sc2 has decent production and regular streamed events.
If GOM is going to do BUSINESS right, they need to monetize correctly, where there is money. There is currently very little money in the sponsorship market, there is no merchandise thats worth buying and ad revenue is extremely low to the point that its laughable. Cheap subscription is the best way for GOM to monetize. GOM being the only entity who has a 99.99% ready product for sale.
In no way to I compare GOM to FXO's event. It would be insulting GOM. FXO is no where near as established as gom, and its entirely why we do not do quality cuts, or content prevention, or anything else for those who subscribe. Its merely a way to dodge ads and win prizes. And until my product is close to goms, I would never force subscriptions or hurt those who don't subscribe (except subscriber only chat because sometimes chat goes nuts).
So yeh, we can talk about this again when my product is super HD and sexified like GOM's.
Sorry to say that, but I think you overestimate the impact of production quality. I think the majority of the people just won't spend money to view computer games regardless of production quality as long there are acceptable free alternatives. Since it is possible to produce pretty good content with cheap equipment and some enthusiasm, the free content will stay.
This happened before in some areas e.g. Music Studios: You can do pretty professional music recordings at home cheap (because all of the digital recording technic avaiable today). So the gap to 'HQ' studios is not that big anymore. A lot of 'professional' music studios had to close because of that development.
Your basic business model is flawed, since it originates from a time where streaming/serving video content was not possible for individuals like today.
On February 13 2012 00:10 Talin wrote: What makes you believe GSL is enough of a high quality product to attract enough customers to survive if they adopted a subscription model (and for the number of customers not to slowly drop off over time)?
It all comes down to whether GOM believes they can sell what they're currently offering for free or not and whether they will take a risk to find out. IMO they can't sell it, not with the abundance of completely free content available at all times.
They already survive on subscriptions only. Do you get ads on your stream? No? Then they don't make money from you.
not entirely true, their sponsorship money is based on viwership, so although a free viewer doesnt make them 'much' money, if they are just watching through jtv they arent costing them anything either.
On February 13 2012 00:10 Talin wrote: What makes you believe GSL is enough of a high quality product to attract enough customers to survive if they adopted a subscription model (and for the number of customers not to slowly drop off over time)?
It all comes down to whether GOM believes they can sell what they're currently offering for free or not and whether they will take a risk to find out. IMO they can't sell it, not with the abundance of completely free content available at all times.
They already survive on subscriptions only. Do you get ads on your stream? No? Then they don't make money from you.
LG, Coca Cola, hot6, gaterade, razer headsets and so on..
so product placements are no ads?
also gom tv cant make money with their free stream on me, personally, because i cant watch it because guess what i have to go to work to get the money im supposed to throw at random bussiness people, accoring to some people.
Dodged like 70% of my post but ok I guess? Wasn't even talking about FXO events (heck if I care how you run your own business).
there is no merchandise thats worth buying
Mainly because there's NO merchandies available. If I could buy a jacket of every team I'd gladly pay a hefty sum for it. Strike a deal with the teams, open a central webshop where you can buy merchandise from all the teams. I can make custom jackets with decent quality for about 50 Euros. Can't imagine them being more expensive when you order a couple dozen. So many overlooked opportunities, it's not even funny.
Also, don't you think if people were prepared to pay (more) for the then exclusive stream they'd already charge for it? That'd be money on the table. There's a pretty good chance you'd lose a whole lot more people who watch for free than you'd gain for your subscription services. At some point this stuff breaks even and I honestly don't think the number of people who would pay if it wasn't available free but don't already do it is very high. Enter restreams btw.
Subscriptions are the ONLY way to make quick revenue from e-sports and forcing them is going to eventually be the norm. It will come to the point where GSL will not let people watch if they haven't subscribed. And rightly so. Why the hell should someone who spends a solid 500k on equipment, let you watch for free? This doesn't apply to small start ups such as my own events. But something like GSL which is BETTER quality than TV (if you have HQ) does not belong on free to air. And you do not DESERVE to watch it for free. Alot of time, effort money and skill has gone into their production. That being said, most people do subscribe to their content.. Rightly so.
First, you don't have ANYTHING to tell about where GSL belongs to. It's up to gom if they want to charge 100k$ for it or let it be free. You do not DESERVE to make me pay for your product either. I'll buy them if I find them interesting.
Now, if subscription becomes the norm for ALL stream, people will just stop watching. I mean, I started watching some random games on youtube, then moved on to watch tournament streams and then I subscribed to the GSL. If you remove all the free content, you won't get anybody new interested into paying for SC2 content.
Now the other problem is one of demand. The GSL is already running somehow year-long (Code A, Code S, GSTL). So I can watch 1h of high-quality SC2 per day. I don't really want/have the time to watch more. It's not I don't want to pay more, it's just I have no use for it. But I sometime watch some foreign tournament streams. If they stop being free, I'll just stop watching them and you'll loose advertisement money.
Also, you are completely wrong on the business side of things. A LOT of tech start-ups company started up with free products : Google, Facebook, Linkedin, ... I could go on and listen hundred of succesful companies that make money out of ad-sponsored products. And I can guarantee you that running Google or Facebook cost more than the 500k$ needed to setup a studio :-)
I mean, by reading this thread, you can clearly see that there are some people that are willing to pay for some SC2 shows, but that they don't want to pay for everything. Now, these people are your consumers and if you want to run a SC2-related business, it's up to you to find a business model that allow you to make a living and satisfy your consumer. Telling your consumer what they should do is a really, really bad idea imho.
As stated before, if e-sports has 300million views per minute, I will happily bow down to comparing them to facebook google and youtube. That makes ad revenue easily viable for successful business.
Do the math on supporting a business with 3.50-4.50 CPM on only major countries. Then tell me that e-sports and facebook are one in the same.
As I stated earlier, for e-sports business to be successful on ad revenue alone (Free media) you need 50k viewers at once to make it worth while. Which very very few are doing. Exposure is valuable if you use it properly, which its not being done. And a sponsorship model only works if you have other forms of revenue.
Its entirely possible to get sponsorship + fee + ad based model to work and be lucrative.
Products should be very much worth while to purchase before you purcahse them. For instance FXOpen's events ARE NOT ready to be purchase only.. And it will be a year or two until they are at that level. We have equipment to buy staff to hire etc etc etc.. GSL however, has quality better than television. IF you dont want to pay for it, I suggest you dont watch it, because eventually you most probably will have to pay for it. The quality is too good to be free.
The holier than now mentality of "supporting e-sports" is only a phrase used. There are plenty of people who actively support e-sports, but the majority do not. They use adblocker, they tune out when there is a 2 minute delay or break on a live stream, they bitch they moan they groan. You only have to search through countless reddit and TL threads to know this.
The community itself drops the average CPM rate by doing what they do best, complain about something they dont like. It might even be the loud minority, but still the noise makes a financial effect on the industry.
For someone to say "hey, i deserve this for free, and I should be allowed to use adblock" is totally stupid and essentially I would push for such person to be banned from every stream on the planet (although thats never going to happen).
I stick to my guns in saying that if you aren't prepared to pay for HIGH QUALITY content, such as the current GSL (not season 1 2 or 3) then you should probably stop viewing the GSL all together because fro them to keep a free stream in the 2nd half of this year would be financially stupid for them. The quality of games and production is too high to give for free...
Again, this would all change if you could provide 300 million viewers per minute to their stream. Then they can be happy to provide 0.20 cpm ads to all its viewers and make good money.
Well, Facebook and Google started pretty small. I mean there are a lot of small startups (just go to techcrunch) that also manage to have free products. My point was that paid-only product is not the only way to go.
I agree that people claiming to support e-sport and using Adblock are being hypocrite. Now, as I said, I'm paying for GSL and many people are.
I think the most important thing is that I think it's normal to start small. As I said before, I think there also is a demand problem. Most of the people who are ready to pay for SC2 content are probably paying for the GSL (since it's the best available right now). The GSL provides a huge amount of matches and I don't think most people would have the time to watch GSL + another paid event. But there obviously is some room for some free streams that can fill the GSL blanks and also attract new players.
Now, I hope in some years, as the community growth, maybe you'll have enough people to sustain two, three or four GSL-like events with paid subscribers. But I don't think this time has come yet. In the meatime, I think going subscriber only would be kind of risky for any foreign tournament.
Also, maybe foreign tournaments could try to innovate. What about offering one stream per player + a main stream ? I would love being able to see the player screens and their movements in parallel. And I might definitely considering paying for that.
You should stop talking about that which you clearly don't understand... The Starcraft 2 community is not going to quadruple in size in the future.... The fact is that the community size and viewer counts are already on the decline after only 2 years(except for korea, the only place with sc2 community growth) and while new expansions to the game may bring small spikes in community numbers they will by no means expand growth to anywhere near double its current size... let alone quadruple...
Comparing this to facebook and google is pure idiocy... the demographic that this community encompasses is largely male and between the ages of 12-30... with most of the community in college and a large percentage poor students.... What this means is that not only are ads targetted at this demographic providing a smaller return to companies, but they are also given to a smaller audience... almost everyone in the world finds themselves in need to google or social networking but not nearly as many are gamers interested in the RTS genre.... If you want to continue to have pipe dreams about the future of starcraft 2 thats fine, just refrain from posting that idiocy here.... With ad prices falling due to lower returns coupled with adblock being rampant and few people willing to actually support esports it is extremely difficult to create a system that effectively couples fees and ads and manages to in the end pull out a profit.
On February 13 2012 00:13 FXOBoSs wrote: They already survive on subscriptions only. Do you get ads on your stream? No? Then they don't make money from you.
There definitely are ads for the sponsors on the GSL stream.
Me and a couple of friends have put our brains together on this whole monetization thing this weekend and came up with this: Project Hive. Please give us some feedback, are we on the right track?
On February 13 2012 00:39 BBshakenbake wrote: Me and a couple of friends have put our brains together on this whole monetization thing this weekend and came up with this: Project Hive. Please give us some feedback, are we on the right track?
Good luck, if you actually put in effort and stay behind it.... It might work... I have a sneaking suspicion that this will end up with either a lack of effort on your part or an attempt to make money off of the idea...
On February 13 2012 00:28 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: Your basic business model is flawed, since it originates from a time where streaming/serving video content was not possible for individuals like today.
I'm curious though, what (do you or anyone else think) would be the best business model to approach this?
Subscriptions are the ONLY way to make quick revenue from e-sports and forcing them is going to eventually be the norm. It will come to the point where GSL will not let people watch if they haven't subscribed. And rightly so. Why the hell should someone who spends a solid 500k on equipment, let you watch for free? This doesn't apply to small start ups such as my own events. But something like GSL which is BETTER quality than TV (if you have HQ) does not belong on free to air. And you do not DESERVE to watch it for free. Alot of time, effort money and skill has gone into their production. That being said, most people do subscribe to their content.. Rightly so.
First, you don't have ANYTHING to tell about where GSL belongs to. It's up to gom if they want to charge 100k$ for it or let it be free. You do not DESERVE to make me pay for your product either. I'll buy them if I find them interesting.
Now, if subscription becomes the norm for ALL stream, people will just stop watching. I mean, I started watching some random games on youtube, then moved on to watch tournament streams and then I subscribed to the GSL. If you remove all the free content, you won't get anybody new interested into paying for SC2 content.
Now the other problem is one of demand. The GSL is already running somehow year-long (Code A, Code S, GSTL). So I can watch 1h of high-quality SC2 per day. I don't really want/have the time to watch more. It's not I don't want to pay more, it's just I have no use for it. But I sometime watch some foreign tournament streams. If they stop being free, I'll just stop watching them and you'll loose advertisement money.
Also, you are completely wrong on the business side of things. A LOT of tech start-ups company started up with free products : Google, Facebook, Linkedin, ... I could go on and listen hundred of succesful companies that make money out of ad-sponsored products. And I can guarantee you that running Google or Facebook cost more than the 500k$ needed to setup a studio :-)
I mean, by reading this thread, you can clearly see that there are some people that are willing to pay for some SC2 shows, but that they don't want to pay for everything. Now, these people are your consumers and if you want to run a SC2-related business, it's up to you to find a business model that allow you to make a living and satisfy your consumer. Telling your consumer what they should do is a really, really bad idea imho.
As stated before, if e-sports has 300million views per minute, I will happily bow down to comparing them to facebook google and youtube. That makes ad revenue easily viable for successful business.
Do the math on supporting a business with 3.50-4.50 CPM on only major countries. Then tell me that e-sports and facebook are one in the same.
As I stated earlier, for e-sports business to be successful on ad revenue alone (Free media) you need 50k viewers at once to make it worth while. Which very very few are doing. Exposure is valuable if you use it properly, which its not being done. And a sponsorship model only works if you have other forms of revenue.
Its entirely possible to get sponsorship + fee + ad based model to work and be lucrative.
Products should be very much worth while to purchase before you purcahse them. For instance FXOpen's events ARE NOT ready to be purchase only.. And it will be a year or two until they are at that level. We have equipment to buy staff to hire etc etc etc.. GSL however, has quality better than television. IF you dont want to pay for it, I suggest you dont watch it, because eventually you most probably will have to pay for it. The quality is too good to be free.
The holier than now mentality of "supporting e-sports" is only a phrase used. There are plenty of people who actively support e-sports, but the majority do not. They use adblocker, they tune out when there is a 2 minute delay or break on a live stream, they bitch they moan they groan. You only have to search through countless reddit and TL threads to know this.
The community itself drops the average CPM rate by doing what they do best, complain about something they dont like. It might even be the loud minority, but still the noise makes a financial effect on the industry.
For someone to say "hey, i deserve this for free, and I should be allowed to use adblock" is totally stupid and essentially I would push for such person to be banned from every stream on the planet (although thats never going to happen).
I stick to my guns in saying that if you aren't prepared to pay for HIGH QUALITY content, such as the current GSL (not season 1 2 or 3) then you should probably stop viewing the GSL all together because fro them to keep a free stream in the 2nd half of this year would be financially stupid for them. The quality of games and production is too high to give for free...
Again, this would all change if you could provide 300 million viewers per minute to their stream. Then they can be happy to provide 0.20 cpm ads to all its viewers and make good money.
Well, Facebook and Google started pretty small. I mean there are a lot of small startups (just go to techcrunch) that also manage to have free products. My point was that paid-only product is not the only way to go.
I agree that people claiming to support e-sport and using Adblock are being hypocrite. Now, as I said, I'm paying for GSL and many people are.
I think the most important thing is that I think it's normal to start small. As I said before, I think there also is a demand problem. Most of the people who are ready to pay for SC2 content are probably paying for the GSL (since it's the best available right now). The GSL provides a huge amount of matches and I don't think most people would have the time to watch GSL + another paid event. But there obviously is some room for some free streams that can fill the GSL blanks and also attract new players.
Now, I hope in some years, as the community growth, maybe you'll have enough people to sustain two, three or four GSL-like events with paid subscribers. But I don't think this time has come yet. In the meatime, I think going subscriber only would be kind of risky for any foreign tournament.
Also, maybe foreign tournaments could try to innovate. What about offering one stream per player + a main stream ? I would love being able to see the player screens and their movements in parallel. And I might definitely considering paying for that.
You should stop talking about that which you clearly don't understand... The Starcraft 2 community is not going to quadruple in size in the future.... The fact is that the community size and viewer counts are already on the decline after only 2 years(except for korea, the only place with sc2 community growth) and while new expansions to the game may bring small spikes in community numbers they will by no means expand growth to anywhere near double its current size... let alone quadruple...
Comparing this to facebook and google is pure idiocy... the demographic that this community encompasses is largely male and between the ages of 12-30... with most of the community in college and a large percentage poor students.... What this means is that not only are ads targetted at this demographic providing a smaller return to companies, but they are also given to a smaller audience... almost everyone in the world finds themselves in need to google or social networking but not nearly as many are gamers interested in the RTS genre.... If you want to continue to have pipe dreams about the future of starcraft 2 thats fine, just refrain from posting that idiocy here.... With ad prices falling due to lower returns coupled with adblock being rampant and few people willing to actually support esports it is extremely difficult to create a system that effectively couples fees and ads and manages to in the end pull out a profit.
Well, if the majority of watcher are poor students, then charging money for all streams is even more stupid because the watchers don't even have the means to pay. Which is kind of proving my point about how going subscription-only is not a good idea for any foreign event right now.
Hmmm, It's something that would have to go through lots of discussion to be effective, I honestly don't know if that is the correct answer however it seems like a good idea. The thing is, that mlg needs the base equity as a company to start up something huge on TV.
On February 13 2012 00:28 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: Your basic business model is flawed, since it originates from a time where streaming/serving video content was not possible for individuals like today.
I'm curious though, what (do you or anyone else think) would be the best business model to approach this?
Think small. Homestory Cup is a good example. If that is not possible, well then maybe there is no business model. The community produces and consumes content by itself. Some individuals may get popular enough to make a living out of it.
In case SC2 moves into main stream one may rethink the 'business' idea. I do not see this currently. BW had some major drivers increasing its popularity: it was 4 free (no copy protection) and the korean PC-bang culture. These factors lead to a huge popularity and player base, so the hype could grow. I don't see SC2 to reach this popularity anytime soon. I think that's why BarCraft was promoted strongly a while ago. You need to create social multiplication. As long nerds are sitting alone in front of their computers and watch each other playing games, nothing will take off :-)
On February 13 2012 00:10 Talin wrote: What makes you believe GSL is enough of a high quality product to attract enough customers to survive if they adopted a subscription model (and for the number of customers not to slowly drop off over time)?
It all comes down to whether GOM believes they can sell what they're currently offering for free or not and whether they will take a risk to find out. IMO they can't sell it, not with the abundance of completely free content available at all times.
They already survive on subscriptions only. Do you get ads on your stream? No? Then they don't make money from you.
Weird post. They have "ads" like cola/ hot6 etc. Those don't matter? :p
If the view count gets higher and higher i think gom will go full free HD (like in Korea?), if they get the big international sponsors. Anyway, they do have the quality in all aspects to go PPV. No foreign tournament comes even close to that though. Particularly in the player skill department. And even if they did (have the uber quality), the viewers will be split between them and they would probly all loose.
Make it PPV and most likely the viewership will drop and drop until nobody cares. Keep it free and it's not generating enough money either. So maybe Gom will be the only org to make a business out of SC2 and the others will go belly up. It would be sad, but i'm ok with it. The smartest will find a way to make a profit, just like in any other business.
I also think this is probly the only situation in the world where the "content producers" blame the market, the customer for them not making a profit. Weird as fuck.
On February 13 2012 01:00 Boonbag wrote: i still dont get why you guys don't try to sell content to any cable channel
It's been discussed before. It's very difficult to make Starcraft fit for TV. What would you do, run a 3 minute commercial in the middle of a 30 minute TvT? Sponsors want set times for advertisements and due to the unpredictable nature of SC2 games in terms of duration, it's very hard to do.
On February 13 2012 01:00 Boonbag wrote: i still dont get why you guys don't try to sell content to any cable channel
It's been discussed before. It's very difficult to make Starcraft fit for TV. What would you do, run a 3 minute commercial in the middle of a 30 minute TvT? Sponsors want set times for advertisements and due to the unpredictable nature of SC2 games in terms of duration, it's very hard to do.
Subscriptions are the ONLY way to make quick revenue from e-sports and forcing them is going to eventually be the norm. It will come to the point where GSL will not let people watch if they haven't subscribed. And rightly so. Why the hell should someone who spends a solid 500k on equipment, let you watch for free? This doesn't apply to small start ups such as my own events. But something like GSL which is BETTER quality than TV (if you have HQ) does not belong on free to air. And you do not DESERVE to watch it for free. Alot of time, effort money and skill has gone into their production. That being said, most people do subscribe to their content.. Rightly so.
First, you don't have ANYTHING to tell about where GSL belongs to. It's up to gom if they want to charge 100k$ for it or let it be free. You do not DESERVE to make me pay for your product either. I'll buy them if I find them interesting.
Now, if subscription becomes the norm for ALL stream, people will just stop watching. I mean, I started watching some random games on youtube, then moved on to watch tournament streams and then I subscribed to the GSL. If you remove all the free content, you won't get anybody new interested into paying for SC2 content.
Now the other problem is one of demand. The GSL is already running somehow year-long (Code A, Code S, GSTL). So I can watch 1h of high-quality SC2 per day. I don't really want/have the time to watch more. It's not I don't want to pay more, it's just I have no use for it. But I sometime watch some foreign tournament streams. If they stop being free, I'll just stop watching them and you'll loose advertisement money.
Also, you are completely wrong on the business side of things. A LOT of tech start-ups company started up with free products : Google, Facebook, Linkedin, ... I could go on and listen hundred of succesful companies that make money out of ad-sponsored products. And I can guarantee you that running Google or Facebook cost more than the 500k$ needed to setup a studio :-)
I mean, by reading this thread, you can clearly see that there are some people that are willing to pay for some SC2 shows, but that they don't want to pay for everything. Now, these people are your consumers and if you want to run a SC2-related business, it's up to you to find a business model that allow you to make a living and satisfy your consumer. Telling your consumer what they should do is a really, really bad idea imho.
As stated before, if e-sports has 300million views per minute, I will happily bow down to comparing them to facebook google and youtube. That makes ad revenue easily viable for successful business.
Do the math on supporting a business with 3.50-4.50 CPM on only major countries. Then tell me that e-sports and facebook are one in the same.
As I stated earlier, for e-sports business to be successful on ad revenue alone (Free media) you need 50k viewers at once to make it worth while. Which very very few are doing. Exposure is valuable if you use it properly, which its not being done. And a sponsorship model only works if you have other forms of revenue.
Its entirely possible to get sponsorship + fee + ad based model to work and be lucrative.
Products should be very much worth while to purchase before you purcahse them. For instance FXOpen's events ARE NOT ready to be purchase only.. And it will be a year or two until they are at that level. We have equipment to buy staff to hire etc etc etc.. GSL however, has quality better than television. IF you dont want to pay for it, I suggest you dont watch it, because eventually you most probably will have to pay for it. The quality is too good to be free.
The holier than now mentality of "supporting e-sports" is only a phrase used. There are plenty of people who actively support e-sports, but the majority do not. They use adblocker, they tune out when there is a 2 minute delay or break on a live stream, they bitch they moan they groan. You only have to search through countless reddit and TL threads to know this.
The community itself drops the average CPM rate by doing what they do best, complain about something they dont like. It might even be the loud minority, but still the noise makes a financial effect on the industry.
For someone to say "hey, i deserve this for free, and I should be allowed to use adblock" is totally stupid and essentially I would push for such person to be banned from every stream on the planet (although thats never going to happen).
I stick to my guns in saying that if you aren't prepared to pay for HIGH QUALITY content, such as the current GSL (not season 1 2 or 3) then you should probably stop viewing the GSL all together because fro them to keep a free stream in the 2nd half of this year would be financially stupid for them. The quality of games and production is too high to give for free...
Again, this would all change if you could provide 300 million viewers per minute to their stream. Then they can be happy to provide 0.20 cpm ads to all its viewers and make good money.
Well, Facebook and Google started pretty small. I mean there are a lot of small startups (just go to techcrunch) that also manage to have free products. My point was that paid-only product is not the only way to go.
I agree that people claiming to support e-sport and using Adblock are being hypocrite. Now, as I said, I'm paying for GSL and many people are.
I think the most important thing is that I think it's normal to start small. As I said before, I think there also is a demand problem. Most of the people who are ready to pay for SC2 content are probably paying for the GSL (since it's the best available right now). The GSL provides a huge amount of matches and I don't think most people would have the time to watch GSL + another paid event. But there obviously is some room for some free streams that can fill the GSL blanks and also attract new players.
Now, I hope in some years, as the community growth, maybe you'll have enough people to sustain two, three or four GSL-like events with paid subscribers. But I don't think this time has come yet. In the meatime, I think going subscriber only would be kind of risky for any foreign tournament.
Also, maybe foreign tournaments could try to innovate. What about offering one stream per player + a main stream ? I would love being able to see the player screens and their movements in parallel. And I might definitely considering paying for that.
You should stop talking about that which you clearly don't understand... The Starcraft 2 community is not going to quadruple in size in the future.... The fact is that the community size and viewer counts are already on the decline after only 2 years(except for korea, the only place with sc2 community growth) and while new expansions to the game may bring small spikes in community numbers they will by no means expand growth to anywhere near double its current size... let alone quadruple...
Comparing this to facebook and google is pure idiocy... the demographic that this community encompasses is largely male and between the ages of 12-30... with most of the community in college and a large percentage poor students.... What this means is that not only are ads targetted at this demographic providing a smaller return to companies, but they are also given to a smaller audience... almost everyone in the world finds themselves in need to google or social networking but not nearly as many are gamers interested in the RTS genre.... If you want to continue to have pipe dreams about the future of starcraft 2 thats fine, just refrain from posting that idiocy here.... With ad prices falling due to lower returns coupled with adblock being rampant and few people willing to actually support esports it is extremely difficult to create a system that effectively couples fees and ads and manages to in the end pull out a profit.
Thank you for that post. I was too lazy myself to point out how stupid is it to compare Google / facebook to SC2.
And how can ppl keep ignoring that the current model simply does not work out!? Companies like MLG are spending more money than they are making (to my knowledge). It just cannot continue like that something has to happen. I understand that we are in a huge predicament. Charge the viewers and you wont get any hehe or continue like this and you go bankrupt
On February 13 2012 01:00 Boonbag wrote: i still dont get why you guys don't try to sell content to any cable channel
It's been discussed before. It's very difficult to make Starcraft fit for TV. What would you do, run a 3 minute commercial in the middle of a 30 minute TvT? Sponsors want set times for advertisements and due to the unpredictable nature of SC2 games in terms of duration, it's very hard to do.
Snooker runs on Eurosport and is very similar to sc in terms of game length, anything from a perfect break in 10 minutes to an hour long safety duel is possible, they run a few minutes of commercials after every game and that's it.
Yes it's European TV and a lot of things are different, just saying that unpredictable game length works perfectly fine in some cases.
Or do the sensible thing and reduce production costs, cut the extraneous stuff that you don't need (Starcraft fans only really want to watch Starcraft), do more online tournaments instead of LAN events and have a reasonable and balanced prize pool.
Come to think of it, there's really no reason why GSL should be played live in studio until RO4 or GSTL finals, especially with the schedule they have. There is no LAN in Starcraft 2, it makes no significant difference to the games whether the players sit in the same room or not.
On February 13 2012 01:14 Timerly wrote: It's also hard for many other sports like Tennis but it's perfectly possible.
Then it comes down to viewership numbers, sponsors willing to stick their neck out (because of viewership numbers) and also tennis matches charges for entrance fees (Aussie Open example, AUD20-40 for a groundpass, AUD80-100 to actually get into the stadium; the finals themselves were AUD600-800+).
I think it's a bad idea to compare SC2 and eSports in general to established sports like tennis and football, simply because of the scale of things, the sponsors they can attract and the amount sponsors are willing to put up is vastly different. As an end-goal target, then yes perhaps it is a good goal, but there's still a lot of ground to cover in between. I hope SC2 and eSports lasts and grows, but there's still a long way to go before it becomes stable I feel. To get there, we're going to need dedicated people with money to use like FXOBoss and Sundance and Mr Chae who are able to attract sponsors and stick their necks to experiment and see what format works and what doesn't.
On February 13 2012 01:27 Talin wrote: Or do the sensible thing and reduce production costs, cut the extraneous stuff that you don't need (Starcraft fans only really want to watch Starcraft), do more online tournaments and have a reasonable prize pool.
Come to think of it, there's really no reason why GSL should be played live in studio until RO4 or GSTL finals. There is no LAN in Starcraft 2, it makes no significant difference to the games whether the players sit in the same room or not.
jesus christ watch some BW for background knowledge of starcraft in korea before making extremely...dubious comments. yes i'm being kind.
On February 13 2012 01:27 Talin wrote: Or do the sensible thing and reduce production costs, cut the extraneous stuff that you don't need (Starcraft fans only really want to watch Starcraft), do more online tournaments and have a reasonable prize pool.
Come to think of it, there's really no reason why GSL should be played live in studio until RO4 or GSTL finals. There is no LAN in Starcraft 2, it makes no significant difference to the games whether the players sit in the same room or not.
jesus christ watch some BW for background knowledge of starcraft in korea before making extremely...dubious comments. yes i'm being kind.
I assure you I am extremely familiar with the "background knowledge" and BW scene, but I still haven't the faintest idea what you're talking about or how it has anything to do with what I'm talking about.
How about you make your point instead of making "dubious" comments yourself?
Subscriptions are the ONLY way to make quick revenue from e-sports and forcing them is going to eventually be the norm. It will come to the point where GSL will not let people watch if they haven't subscribed. And rightly so. Why the hell should someone who spends a solid 500k on equipment, let you watch for free? This doesn't apply to small start ups such as my own events. But something like GSL which is BETTER quality than TV (if you have HQ) does not belong on free to air. And you do not DESERVE to watch it for free. Alot of time, effort money and skill has gone into their production. That being said, most people do subscribe to their content.. Rightly so.
First, you don't have ANYTHING to tell about where GSL belongs to. It's up to gom if they want to charge 100k$ for it or let it be free. You do not DESERVE to make me pay for your product either. I'll buy them if I find them interesting.
Now, if subscription becomes the norm for ALL stream, people will just stop watching. I mean, I started watching some random games on youtube, then moved on to watch tournament streams and then I subscribed to the GSL. If you remove all the free content, you won't get anybody new interested into paying for SC2 content.
Now the other problem is one of demand. The GSL is already running somehow year-long (Code A, Code S, GSTL). So I can watch 1h of high-quality SC2 per day. I don't really want/have the time to watch more. It's not I don't want to pay more, it's just I have no use for it. But I sometime watch some foreign tournament streams. If they stop being free, I'll just stop watching them and you'll loose advertisement money.
Also, you are completely wrong on the business side of things. A LOT of tech start-ups company started up with free products : Google, Facebook, Linkedin, ... I could go on and listen hundred of succesful companies that make money out of ad-sponsored products. And I can guarantee you that running Google or Facebook cost more than the 500k$ needed to setup a studio :-)
I mean, by reading this thread, you can clearly see that there are some people that are willing to pay for some SC2 shows, but that they don't want to pay for everything. Now, these people are your consumers and if you want to run a SC2-related business, it's up to you to find a business model that allow you to make a living and satisfy your consumer. Telling your consumer what they should do is a really, really bad idea imho.
As stated before, if e-sports has 300million views per minute, I will happily bow down to comparing them to facebook google and youtube. That makes ad revenue easily viable for successful business.
Do the math on supporting a business with 3.50-4.50 CPM on only major countries. Then tell me that e-sports and facebook are one in the same.
As I stated earlier, for e-sports business to be successful on ad revenue alone (Free media) you need 50k viewers at once to make it worth while. Which very very few are doing. Exposure is valuable if you use it properly, which its not being done. And a sponsorship model only works if you have other forms of revenue.
Its entirely possible to get sponsorship + fee + ad based model to work and be lucrative.
Products should be very much worth while to purchase before you purcahse them. For instance FXOpen's events ARE NOT ready to be purchase only.. And it will be a year or two until they are at that level. We have equipment to buy staff to hire etc etc etc.. GSL however, has quality better than television. IF you dont want to pay for it, I suggest you dont watch it, because eventually you most probably will have to pay for it. The quality is too good to be free.
The holier than now mentality of "supporting e-sports" is only a phrase used. There are plenty of people who actively support e-sports, but the majority do not. They use adblocker, they tune out when there is a 2 minute delay or break on a live stream, they bitch they moan they groan. You only have to search through countless reddit and TL threads to know this.
The community itself drops the average CPM rate by doing what they do best, complain about something they dont like. It might even be the loud minority, but still the noise makes a financial effect on the industry.
For someone to say "hey, i deserve this for free, and I should be allowed to use adblock" is totally stupid and essentially I would push for such person to be banned from every stream on the planet (although thats never going to happen).
I stick to my guns in saying that if you aren't prepared to pay for HIGH QUALITY content, such as the current GSL (not season 1 2 or 3) then you should probably stop viewing the GSL all together because fro them to keep a free stream in the 2nd half of this year would be financially stupid for them. The quality of games and production is too high to give for free...
Again, this would all change if you could provide 300 million viewers per minute to their stream. Then they can be happy to provide 0.20 cpm ads to all its viewers and make good money.
Well, Facebook and Google started pretty small. I mean there are a lot of small startups (just go to techcrunch) that also manage to have free products. My point was that paid-only product is not the only way to go.
I agree that people claiming to support e-sport and using Adblock are being hypocrite. Now, as I said, I'm paying for GSL and many people are.
I think the most important thing is that I think it's normal to start small. As I said before, I think there also is a demand problem. Most of the people who are ready to pay for SC2 content are probably paying for the GSL (since it's the best available right now). The GSL provides a huge amount of matches and I don't think most people would have the time to watch GSL + another paid event. But there obviously is some room for some free streams that can fill the GSL blanks and also attract new players.
Now, I hope in some years, as the community growth, maybe you'll have enough people to sustain two, three or four GSL-like events with paid subscribers. But I don't think this time has come yet. In the meatime, I think going subscriber only would be kind of risky for any foreign tournament.
Also, maybe foreign tournaments could try to innovate. What about offering one stream per player + a main stream ? I would love being able to see the player screens and their movements in parallel. And I might definitely considering paying for that.
You should stop talking about that which you clearly don't understand... The Starcraft 2 community is not going to quadruple in size in the future.... The fact is that the community size and viewer counts are already on the decline after only 2 years(except for korea, the only place with sc2 community growth) and while new expansions to the game may bring small spikes in community numbers they will by no means expand growth to anywhere near double its current size... let alone quadruple...
Comparing this to facebook and google is pure idiocy... the demographic that this community encompasses is largely male and between the ages of 12-30... with most of the community in college and a large percentage poor students.... What this means is that not only are ads targetted at this demographic providing a smaller return to companies, but they are also given to a smaller audience... almost everyone in the world finds themselves in need to google or social networking but not nearly as many are gamers interested in the RTS genre.... If you want to continue to have pipe dreams about the future of starcraft 2 thats fine, just refrain from posting that idiocy here.... With ad prices falling due to lower returns coupled with adblock being rampant and few people willing to actually support esports it is extremely difficult to create a system that effectively couples fees and ads and manages to in the end pull out a profit.
Well, if the majority of watcher are poor students, then charging money for all streams is even more stupid because the watchers don't even have the means to pay. Which is kind of proving my point about how going subscription-only is not a good idea for any foreign event right now.
.... I was simply defending Boss' claim that a subscription based service is the best way to yield profit from SC2 content if it is to be yielded at all... Your argument was simply put stupid... to say: "Now, if subscription becomes the norm for ALL stream, people will just stop watching. " is completely irrational... obviously that isn't going to happen... and wouldn't even be attempted by 99% of the community/smaller events...
Boss was simply saying that if a company has invested a significant amount of money into creating a production that is actually of a higher quality than that which we see on TV as GOMTV has and they already have made a name for themselves the most effective way of yielding profit would be charging a subscription for all users... This makes complete and utter sense and gom would and in all likely-hood will profit greatly in the subscriptions they gain from even the first month of discontinuing thier free service. The fact of the matter is that the GSL is widely accepted as the highest field of play with some of the best casters and a larger portion of the community would be willing to pay to view this tournament than they would any other.
You should not post overly wordy responses using poor grammar about topics that you don't even understand... I wont be replying to anything but a rational and well thought out response to this because I am done wasting my time responding to these garbage posts.
Like many have said, there is too much free content to charge PPV for events.
I am a fan of competition, not of Starcraft. I can watch the smaller games and find similar entertainment and have never watched UFC or MMA PPV matches.
Also, you run into the issue that, unlike UFC where a HUGE percentage of the fan base are not tech saavy, with the SC2, you will have a million and a half pirates and restreams that, yes, they will get shut down on the spot, but there will be too many people that will not shut them down. Sites with large community managers and helpers will shut them down (Twitch, own3d) but people will watch it on livestream and ustream for free, among a bevy of other streaming websites that have no community team whatsoever.
On February 13 2012 01:27 Talin wrote: Or do the sensible thing and reduce production costs, cut the extraneous stuff that you don't need (Starcraft fans only really want to watch Starcraft), do more online tournaments instead of LAN events and have a reasonable and balanced prize pool.
Come to think of it, there's really no reason why GSL should be played live in studio until RO4 or GSTL finals, especially with the schedule they have. There is no LAN in Starcraft 2, it makes no significant difference to the games whether the players sit in the same room or not.
I agree that cutting production costs in some cases is definitely an option for making tournaments more viable/profitable the GSL example just doesn't make sense.... A large amount of GOMTV's income comes from Korean fans and the ability to go see a live match as well as the sense of legitimacy that comes with having players and casters in the same room increases the production value greatly... Gom has already purchased all of the equipment and owns the studio they lose literally the cost of electricity for having the lights on for having the players play at the venue... Well... they occasionally buy pizza and drinks for viewers who come to watch live ... Either way they would only stand to lose money by having everything but the RO4 completely online...
On February 13 2012 01:37 shadymmj wrote: really? people don't want to watch live matches in the studio until the semi finals? is that what you're suggesting?
There isn't enough people in SC2 that do to justify the production costs for it, the popularity is nowhere near the level of BW, and even BW is falling off the map lately and only gets enough attention near the conclusion (semifinals/finals) of OSL/SPL.
Moreover, GOM's schedule is a lot tighter than OGN's (even when you take Proleague into account), there's almost always some stage of GSL/GSTL going on constantly. When you consider all the Code A matches (which is basically a qualifier tournament), and having a GSL every 2 months, it's just too much to pay for. If you haven't noticed, they don't really get big audiences there at all.
Ultimately, if they don't have the money to sustain live studio production, they don't have a choice. It's the most reasonable way to save money without hurting the viewer count.
On February 13 2012 01:38 Zlasher wrote: Like many have said, there is too much free content to charge PPV for events.
I am a fan of competition, not of Starcraft. I can watch the smaller games and find similar entertainment and have never watched UFC or MMA PPV matches.
Also, you run into the issue that, unlike UFC where a HUGE percentage of the fan base are not tech saavy, with the SC2, you will have a million and a half pirates and restreams that, yes, they will get shut down on the spot, but there will be too many people that will not shut them down. Sites with large community managers and helpers will shut them down (Twitch, own3d) but people will watch it on livestream and ustream for free, among a bevy of other streaming websites that have no community team whatsoever.
False... Of course there will be restreams... and while you may not realize it there are restreams of UFC and MMA ppv's as well as Every single TV show/movie/piece of software ever. Of course people will still be able to access the content for free that is how the internet works... that does not mean that 100% of people will watch it for free instead of paying... There are currently at least 3-4 restreams of the GSL in HD every single time it broadcasts but people still tune in to the MUCH lower quality gom stream b/c it is legal. While there would definitely be a loss of net viewers if GSL became subscription-only there would be a vast increase in paid viewers... I watch GSL when I can and know 6-7 other people who I play sc with and also watch GSL... We all watch the free stream and 5 of us would 100% buy the subscription on the spot if there was no longer a free stream.
There are restreams and illegal vods of everything on the internet... obtaining links for these streams on a daily basis with them being shut down often would be volatile at best... and even if a consistent stream could be found it would not significantly cut into gom's profits unless it was established for at least a month or more.
Of course there are restreams of sporting events. My point is that the viewership of UFC to a much higher degree than esports, would put up with that. The fighting sport industry has always been based around PPV which is why it is viable, because it is engrained in the mindset that people pay to watch it. That isn't the case in esports where everything is free to watch. To think that the level of pirate viewers in esports would be same as in UFC/MMA is insane, it will be ten-fold more.
On February 13 2012 02:08 Zlasher wrote: Of course there are restreams of sporting events. My point is that the viewership of UFC to a much higher degree than esports, would put up with that. The fighting sport industry has always been based around PPV which is why it is viable, because it is engrained in the mindset that people pay to watch it. That isn't the case in esports where everything is free to watch. To think that the level of pirate viewers in esports would be same as in UFC/MMA is insane, it will be ten-fold more.
true and so the industry will cannibalize itself
its all about money and if u can't get money out event viewers through live event tickets and PPV buys then the industry won't exist.
Currently, we have a tonne of North American "eSports viewers" who complain about everything and pay nothing.
When MLG can sell 18,000 tickets at $100 for a single 4 hour event then eSports will have "arrived" in North America. Until then we'll continue to get these cobbled together events plagued by a myriad of "technical issues".
Generally, most "eSports fans" do not have the disposable income to throw away on live events.
On February 13 2012 01:37 shadymmj wrote: really? people don't want to watch live matches in the studio until the semi finals? is that what you're suggesting?
There isn't enough people in SC2 that do to justify the production costs for it, the popularity is nowhere near the level of BW, and even BW is falling off the map lately and only gets enough attention near the conclusion (semifinals/finals) of OSL/SPL.
Moreover, GOM's schedule is a lot tighter than OGN's (even when you take Proleague into account), there's almost always some stage of GSL/GSTL going on constantly. When you consider all the Code A matches (which is basically a qualifier tournament), and having a GSL every 2 months, it's just too much to pay for. If you haven't noticed, they don't really get big audiences there at all.
Ultimately, if they don't have the money to sustain live studio production, they don't have a choice. It's the most reasonable way to save money without hurting the viewer count.
i dont know if it is really a financial loss to hold live studio events, but removing them off the map until the semis will trigger an avalanche of bad sentiment for the game's future.
you'd hope that it would grow in korea, and while I know for a fact that foreign sc2 interest in on the decline, i really don't have any knowledge of the korean scene. removing live studio events from the schedule is never a good thing, and should be a last resort. it signals that the game is shrinking or getting unsustainable.
On February 13 2012 01:37 shadymmj wrote: really? people don't want to watch live matches in the studio until the semi finals? is that what you're suggesting?
There isn't enough people in SC2 that do to justify the production costs for it, the popularity is nowhere near the level of BW, and even BW is falling off the map lately and only gets enough attention near the conclusion (semifinals/finals) of OSL/SPL.
Moreover, GOM's schedule is a lot tighter than OGN's (even when you take Proleague into account), there's almost always some stage of GSL/GSTL going on constantly. When you consider all the Code A matches (which is basically a qualifier tournament), and having a GSL every 2 months, it's just too much to pay for. If you haven't noticed, they don't really get big audiences there at all.
Ultimately, if they don't have the money to sustain live studio production, they don't have a choice. It's the most reasonable way to save money without hurting the viewer count.
i dont know if it is really a financial loss to hold live studio events, but removing them off the map until the semis will trigger an avalanche of bad sentiment for the game's future.
you'd hope that it would grow in korea, and while I know for a fact that foreign sc2 interest in on the decline, i really don't have any knowledge of the korean scene. removing live studio events from the schedule is never a good thing, and should be a last resort. it signals that the game is shrinking or getting unsustainable.
How exactly do you know for a fact that interest is on the decline? Do you have access to some magic ball that the rest of us don't?
On February 13 2012 02:08 Zlasher wrote: Of course there are restreams of sporting events. My point is that the viewership of UFC to a much higher degree than esports, would put up with that. The fighting sport industry has always been based around PPV which is why it is viable, because it is engrained in the mindset that people pay to watch it. That isn't the case in esports where everything is free to watch. To think that the level of pirate viewers in esports would be same as in UFC/MMA is insane, it will be ten-fold more.
true and so the industry will cannibalize itself
its all about money and if u can't get money out event viewers through live event tickets and PPV buys then the industry won't exist.
Currently, we have a tonne of North American "eSports viewers" who complain about everything and pay nothing.
When MLG can sell 18,000 tickets at $100 for a single 4 hour event then eSports will have "arrived" in North America. Until then we'll continue to get these cobbled together events plagued by a myriad of "technical issues".
Generally, most "eSports fans" do not have the disposable income to throw away on live events.
I think an important difference is, that in eSports a single person can organize and stream+comment an online tourney (binary beast, Twitch TV + TL for promotion). This is not possible in real sports. This is the reason why there is so much free content. The amount of free and cheap content is the reason why people will not pay for expensive productions. They simply don't have to.
On February 13 2012 01:37 shadymmj wrote: really? people don't want to watch live matches in the studio until the semi finals? is that what you're suggesting?
There isn't enough people in SC2 that do to justify the production costs for it, the popularity is nowhere near the level of BW, and even BW is falling off the map lately and only gets enough attention near the conclusion (semifinals/finals) of OSL/SPL.
Moreover, GOM's schedule is a lot tighter than OGN's (even when you take Proleague into account), there's almost always some stage of GSL/GSTL going on constantly. When you consider all the Code A matches (which is basically a qualifier tournament), and having a GSL every 2 months, it's just too much to pay for. If you haven't noticed, they don't really get big audiences there at all.
Ultimately, if they don't have the money to sustain live studio production, they don't have a choice. It's the most reasonable way to save money without hurting the viewer count.
i dont know if it is really a financial loss to hold live studio events, but removing them off the map until the semis will trigger an avalanche of bad sentiment for the game's future.
you'd hope that it would grow in korea, and while I know for a fact that foreign sc2 interest in on the decline, i really don't have any knowledge of the korean scene. removing live studio events from the schedule is never a good thing, and should be a last resort. it signals that the game is shrinking or getting unsustainable.
How exactly do you know for a fact that interest is on the decline? Do you have access to some magic ball that the rest of us don't?
viewership numbers of even popular tourneys/streams have declined at least ~30% compared to some 6 month ago.
On February 13 2012 01:37 shadymmj wrote: really? people don't want to watch live matches in the studio until the semi finals? is that what you're suggesting?
There isn't enough people in SC2 that do to justify the production costs for it, the popularity is nowhere near the level of BW, and even BW is falling off the map lately and only gets enough attention near the conclusion (semifinals/finals) of OSL/SPL.
Moreover, GOM's schedule is a lot tighter than OGN's (even when you take Proleague into account), there's almost always some stage of GSL/GSTL going on constantly. When you consider all the Code A matches (which is basically a qualifier tournament), and having a GSL every 2 months, it's just too much to pay for. If you haven't noticed, they don't really get big audiences there at all.
Ultimately, if they don't have the money to sustain live studio production, they don't have a choice. It's the most reasonable way to save money without hurting the viewer count.
i dont know if it is really a financial loss to hold live studio events, but removing them off the map until the semis will trigger an avalanche of bad sentiment for the game's future.
you'd hope that it would grow in korea, and while I know for a fact that foreign sc2 interest in on the decline, i really don't have any knowledge of the korean scene. removing live studio events from the schedule is never a good thing, and should be a last resort. it signals that the game is shrinking or getting unsustainable.
How exactly do you know for a fact that interest is on the decline? Do you have access to some magic ball that the rest of us don't?
viewership numbers of even popular tourneys/streams have declined at least ~30% compared to some 6 month ago.
Are you basing this on officialy released numbers, or on your own observations? Because if it's the second one, you have no clue, just like the rest of us.
On February 13 2012 01:14 Timerly wrote: It's also hard for many other sports like Tennis but it's perfectly possible.
Then it comes down to viewership numbers, sponsors willing to stick their neck out (because of viewership numbers) and also tennis matches charges for entrance fees (Aussie Open example, AUD20-40 for a groundpass, AUD80-100 to actually get into the stadium; the finals themselves were AUD600-800+).
I think it's a bad idea to compare SC2 and eSports in general to established sports like tennis and football, simply because of the scale of things, the sponsors they can attract and the amount sponsors are willing to put up is vastly different. As an end-goal target, then yes perhaps it is a good goal, but there's still a lot of ground to cover in between. I hope SC2 and eSports lasts and grows, but there's still a long way to go before it becomes stable I feel. To get there, we're going to need dedicated people with money to use like FXOBoss and Sundance and Mr Chae who are able to attract sponsors and stick their necks to experiment and see what format works and what doesn't.
Nice way to miss my point (which was just not predetermined game length).
The same problem is btw the UFC comparison. It's a completely US based thing, close to nobody in Europe buys PPV access to anything. Even Pay TV is on the decline. Credit cards are a big factor there because around Europe nobody uses them as lightly as people in the US. It's something like 3? credit cards per citizen there, here it's way below 1.
On February 13 2012 02:37 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: This is the reason why there is so much free content. The amount of free and cheap content is the reason why people will not pay for expensive productions. They simply don't have to.
the quality of the "free content" produced by 1 guy is poor compared to a UFC PPV.
go to a UFC event... talk to a few people ring side. find me any "esports fans" that have the kind of money the guys sitting ringside at the UFC have
do the same for a Yankees home game, a Maple Leafs home game or a Lakers home game.
On February 13 2012 00:00 Timerly wrote: It's funny how even people like Boss argue against the most basic principles of economics and consumer behaviour. To my knowledge no company has made profits by forcing something on its consumers without some monopoly. I also think that even GSL and such are still startups in relative terms. Do people really believe the actual hardcore fanbase for SC2 is that big? We need tons more internal numbers before saying anything of the like. Relative subscription rates for GOM, who bought which package...it's just not there for anybody but GOM, not even for Boss. You can talk all day, there's no basis. All kinds of different businesses have taken all kinds of different paths to success or failure. There are professionals in the most niche of sports and there are companies who live off the broadcasting. E-sports history tells us that making predictions is waaaay harder than it might seem even to the most experienced business people. Remember CS in 2000? Stuff got serious. The huge CPL and what came of it. WCG growth and decline. Nothing so far points to a clear direction.
My very personal opinion is that Blizzard should back all of this. The whole thing is built around people consuming their product. They wouldn't even have to make profits, any money from it would just flow back into their marketing budget which is enough to run 10 GSLs and might return quite a bit more in long term effects. Kotick likes exploiting franchises at least annually, obviously keeping people playing and wanting the next installment should be a priority in marketing, yet they choose to randomly dish out advertisement instead of turning SC2 into an even bigger phenomenon. You can make that stuff a trend, you need the opinion leaders in gaming, the hardcore crowd. I alone got like a dozen people to at least try SC2, about half of them bought it...and I'm far from the extremely hardcore crowd. I didn't pay for any events, yet I made SC2 grow. This is what should really matter here because those were at least 250$ worth of sales. Do I have to mention how multiplication and powers work? If that doesn't happen we can talk all day but SC2 won't get anywhere near the point it could go. Game lifespans are too short. Even BW had a dozen years to grow and still remained niche. You can't get the financial backing to make something explode without Blizzard's involvement.
Organisations like ESL do most stuff right. They don't go overboard on prize money, they keep the production quality up while travelling around the world and most important of all, they hedge their risks. Have multiple games in your leagues, guys, it doesn't hurt anybody. Why get all this setup only for SC2 when you could run CS, LoL, DotA and a dozen more tournaments with the same equipment? That's just wasting potential with your fixed costs being quite a huge chunk of your whole financial structure.
SC2 numbers are indecline not increase. Viewer numbers are in decline (outside of korea). The korean scene is starting to grow a good viewerbase and you can notice this at the gom studio with more people venturing towards it. GOM has been providing a free stream for a long time, with no revenue at all entering their coffers. They provide a product more than worth the money it costs. They have given plenty to the community, answered to feed back for more than 12 months and adjusted to fit to the community. Their HQ stream is better than anything else out there and more stable, and they rarely have major stream issues of which they are quick to fix. They are endorsed by blizzard (they have rights to the korean sc2 monopoly) and SHOULD monetize on it to expand further for the viewing experience and to support the players who are struggling financially.
If they continue to provide it free, with no ad revenue (which subscriptions is more cost efficient) then they will inevitably implode if a sponsor pulls its funding. If they were to create a very affordable HQ m/m subscription, they will support the growth of their business, as well as the industry as a whole. I dont see why if there was funding for it, GOM wouldn't pick up other games and increase the standard of content quality across the broad. At the moment only sc2 has decent production and regular streamed events.
If GOM is going to do BUSINESS right, they need to monetize correctly, where there is money. There is currently very little money in the sponsorship market, there is no merchandise thats worth buying and ad revenue is extremely low to the point that its laughable. Cheap subscription is the best way for GOM to monetize. GOM being the only entity who has a 99.99% ready product for sale.
In no way to I compare GOM to FXO's event. It would be insulting GOM. FXO is no where near as established as gom, and its entirely why we do not do quality cuts, or content prevention, or anything else for those who subscribe. Its merely a way to dodge ads and win prizes. And until my product is close to goms, I would never force subscriptions or hurt those who don't subscribe (except subscriber only chat because sometimes chat goes nuts).
So yeh, we can talk about this again when my product is super HD and sexified like GOM's.
Uh where is this all coming from? GOM seems to be doing fine as they have a number of sponsors. Even if you watch the free stream you still watch a number of ads from Gskill and other sponsors such as Pepsi and Hot6ix. I know a number of people who subscribe to GOM because they offer the best competition, best production quality, best casters and many other features such as VODs. Do you really have insight into GOM's financial business and have sufficient proof that they are suffering from the free stream? It's really not even fair to compare GOM to any of the current western productions and that is exactly why no one wants to throw money at the western scene. With SC2 player numbers dropping outside of Korea it should be obvious that this is the problem. The quickly exploding interest in SC2 has stopped and people are actually losing interest, even with an insane over saturation of free content. If you are losing viewers while the content is free, how do you expect to expand viewership when people have to pay?
On February 13 2012 02:37 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: This is the reason why there is so much free content. The amount of free and cheap content is the reason why people will not pay for expensive productions. They simply don't have to.
the quality of the "free content" produced by 1 guy is poor compared to a UFC PPV.
go to a UFC event... talk to a few people ring side. find me any "esports fans" that have the kind of money the guys sitting ringside at the UFC have
do the same for a Yankees home game, a Maple Leafs home game or a Lakers home game.
I think nobody has a problem to pay if he wents for a real live event (not stream/tv). However the difference on stream between an expensive production and a one man show production is not big enough to make people pay. I don't care for HD (it anyways tends to stutter) and i don't need fancy animations. As long there is high level play (high masters/GM), i am completely satisfied with "low quality" productions. Also the quality of casters frequently is not that much worse than that of the "high quality" production (well, ofc tastosis is unreached for now ;-) ). No offense, just telling like it is. I even do not watch free gom streams anymore, because i have to login (forgot password).
maybe it is also because of sc2: At the very top level SC2 becomes somewhat one-dimensional, it does not make a huge difference in entertainment level to me wether i watch some top EU GM players or top korean pros.
I'm already paying for SC2 content. It's a currency called time, and while I understand SC2 tournament organizers do not value my time I do. And lately I find more and more that even without having to pay euro's or dollars I don't think they're worth my time. I know that's not the answer the eSports advocates want to hear but there's too much content and most of the time I find I'd rather be doing something else.
On February 13 2012 04:13 RaiderRob wrote: I'm already paying for SC2 content. It's a currency called time, and while I understand SC2 tournament organizers do not value my time I do. And lately I find more and more that even without having to pay euro's or dollars I don't think they're worth my time. I know that's not the answer the eSports advocates want to hear but there's too much content and most of the time I find I'd rather be doing something else.
Good point and as Zlasher pointed out there is too much content floating around.
As for me,
I only watch certain events and matches because there isn't enough time to catch everything. I'll read up on the results and some reports, but not much else.
There is too much content and not enough fans to adopt such models like the UFC. Do not shoot yourselves in the foot and continue to brand.
On February 13 2012 03:56 CursedFeanor wrote: I agree with this whole rant and truly hope MLG takes note...
Sure making people pay for quality content will turn away some, but those are not the members that we need to "make e-sports" happen.
Actually those people are exactly the people you need to "make e-sports" happen. The only people that will pay to watch SC2 are the hardcore fans. Everyone else will just waste their time on the next best free thing like LoL or DOTA2. SC2 needs to stay free for a long time before anything like PPV will become viable. They just need to find a way to make money off the people that ARE ALREADY MAKING TONS OF MONEY from this game.
I would pay to watch MLG SC2 streams but just them because i really like the quality of the tournaments they put on EX: MLG Providence. I would really only pay to watch them and not the other events like Dreamhack, IEM, etc. People buy stupid stuff like cigarettes for $10 and say they want to quit hey why not quit and put your $10 to the tournament stream you always wait for. In all honestly i think that half of the audience that watches live streams are 13-18 years of age and the rest of them are like me 20+ years old that have actually work shitty part time jobs and go to school.
On February 13 2012 00:02 FXOBoSs wrote: As I stated earlier, for e-sports business to be successful on ad revenue alone (Free media) you need 50k viewers at once to make it worth while. Which very very few are doing. Exposure is valuable if you use it properly, which its not being done. And a sponsorship model only works if you have other forms of revenue.
Is this for real? I thought SC2 was supposed to be really popular. The last proleague finals got like 20 times that, and BW is supposed to be dying. If the entire world can't even beat one country then how is SC2's popularity not a scam?
I would not pay unless production is increased drastically, and down time is almost removed apart from ad time. Im not going to pay 25$ to watch an event when my time restrictions will only allow me to catch perhaps 1 or two games, while all my other time is spent watching a crowed of people sitting in chairs.
to date GSL is the only tournament that can provide that, No one else has got close.
On February 12 2012 19:23 dUTtrOACh wrote: UFC didn't start out as a well-greased marketing machine like it is now. The problem is that E-Sports is a grass-roots effort outside of Korea at the moment, and like pretty much all grass-roots 'sports' with proportionately small following Iwhen compared to the UFC some entrepreneurs will go bust trying to make it work as a money generator.
Indeed, Dana White spent 80 million dollars before UFC made a dime on production, marketing, legal etc to take it from a bankrupted niche bloodsport to mainstream and even then it was slow go. Today it has capitalization of around a billion dollars from 2 million (what they bought it for). But make no mistake the business made that market and it's high time SC2 do the same if they want profit.
It's so funny to hear ppl think you can just charge and make money on SC2 without giving anything worth paying for like UFC did and GSL is doing. OP talks about entitlement of the viewers but OPs idea that you are entitled to make a profit are even more ridiculous considering 90% of businesses FAIL in generating profit and fail. Time for a bunch to fail it seems as they fail to grow their market and make their events a MUST see. They are just crying on their way down. Oh and asking for charity in business is a sure fire sign of desperation/not to watch. I'd stay away from that too.
On February 13 2012 09:34 Naughty wrote: I would not pay unless production is increased drastically, and down time is almost removed apart from ad time. Im not going to pay 25$ to watch an event when my time restrictions will only allow me to catch perhaps 1 or two games, while all my other time is spent watching a crowed of people sitting in chairs.
to date GSL is the only tournament that can provide that, No one else has got close.
Agreed. I pay for GSL because I press Play and can watch an hour or 2 of the best SC2 matches with great casting and not have to worry about trying to time things so I get back 3 hours later when the crowd shot is finally done.
On February 13 2012 00:00 Timerly wrote: It's funny how even people like Boss argue against the most basic principles of economics and consumer behaviour. To my knowledge no company has made profits by forcing something on its consumers without some monopoly. I also think that even GSL and such are still startups in relative terms. Do people really believe the actual hardcore fanbase for SC2 is that big? We need tons more internal numbers before saying anything of the like. Relative subscription rates for GOM, who bought which package...it's just not there for anybody but GOM, not even for Boss. You can talk all day, there's no basis. All kinds of different businesses have taken all kinds of different paths to success or failure. There are professionals in the most niche of sports and there are companies who live off the broadcasting. E-sports history tells us that making predictions is waaaay harder than it might seem even to the most experienced business people. Remember CS in 2000? Stuff got serious. The huge CPL and what came of it. WCG growth and decline. Nothing so far points to a clear direction.
My very personal opinion is that Blizzard should back all of this. The whole thing is built around people consuming their product. They wouldn't even have to make profits, any money from it would just flow back into their marketing budget which is enough to run 10 GSLs and might return quite a bit more in long term effects. Kotick likes exploiting franchises at least annually, obviously keeping people playing and wanting the next installment should be a priority in marketing, yet they choose to randomly dish out advertisement instead of turning SC2 into an even bigger phenomenon. You can make that stuff a trend, you need the opinion leaders in gaming, the hardcore crowd. I alone got like a dozen people to at least try SC2, about half of them bought it...and I'm far from the extremely hardcore crowd. I didn't pay for any events, yet I made SC2 grow. This is what should really matter here because those were at least 250$ worth of sales. Do I have to mention how multiplication and powers work? If that doesn't happen we can talk all day but SC2 won't get anywhere near the point it could go. Game lifespans are too short. Even BW had a dozen years to grow and still remained niche. You can't get the financial backing to make something explode without Blizzard's involvement.
Organisations like ESL do most stuff right. They don't go overboard on prize money, they keep the production quality up while travelling around the world and most important of all, they hedge their risks. Have multiple games in your leagues, guys, it doesn't hurt anybody. Why get all this setup only for SC2 when you could run CS, LoL, DotA and a dozen more tournaments with the same equipment? That's just wasting potential with your fixed costs being quite a huge chunk of your whole financial structure.
SC2 numbers are indecline not increase. Viewer numbers are in decline (outside of korea). The korean scene is starting to grow a good viewerbase and you can notice this at the gom studio with more people venturing towards it. GOM has been providing a free stream for a long time, with no revenue at all entering their coffers. They provide a product more than worth the money it costs. They have given plenty to the community, answered to feed back for more than 12 months and adjusted to fit to the community. Their HQ stream is better than anything else out there and more stable, and they rarely have major stream issues of which they are quick to fix. They are endorsed by blizzard (they have rights to the korean sc2 monopoly) and SHOULD monetize on it to expand further for the viewing experience and to support the players who are struggling financially.
If they continue to provide it free, with no ad revenue (which subscriptions is more cost efficient) then they will inevitably implode if a sponsor pulls its funding. If they were to create a very affordable HQ m/m subscription, they will support the growth of their business, as well as the industry as a whole. I dont see why if there was funding for it, GOM wouldn't pick up other games and increase the standard of content quality across the broad. At the moment only sc2 has decent production and regular streamed events.
If GOM is going to do BUSINESS right, they need to monetize correctly, where there is money. There is currently very little money in the sponsorship market, there is no merchandise thats worth buying and ad revenue is extremely low to the point that its laughable. Cheap subscription is the best way for GOM to monetize. GOM being the only entity who has a 99.99% ready product for sale.
In no way to I compare GOM to FXO's event. It would be insulting GOM. FXO is no where near as established as gom, and its entirely why we do not do quality cuts, or content prevention, or anything else for those who subscribe. Its merely a way to dodge ads and win prizes. And until my product is close to goms, I would never force subscriptions or hurt those who don't subscribe (except subscriber only chat because sometimes chat goes nuts).
So yeh, we can talk about this again when my product is super HD and sexified like GOM's.
I've read a handful of pages here and a bit of the debate over whether ppv is viable, whether limiting production costs would eek out profitability, and what sort of content/production has some ppv value. These are all interesting ideas but I think they're missing the fundamental problem.
Esports is too small. I follow all the goings on of starcraft and I don't really see how the community engages a new audience. Companies like UFC grew at a grass roots level but they grew through marketing and reaching new audiences. A lot of the evolution of sc2 broadcasting as been an attempt win over the same 20k people who watch sc2 content nightly. That base number of 20k needs to grow.. finding a way to make more money off the same number of people is always good, but I don't think it solves any of the financial issues at hand. The reason my cousins don't follow esports has nothing to do with the production quality of NASL (or anyone else).
A lot of the suggestions in this thread are ideas on how to improve the experience of the 20k people who are already dedicated. - those 20k don't really matter. Pleasing/attracting the next 20k is more important.
The single best marketing tool i've seen developed is barcraft. Its done well, but it needs to grow further. Engaging the outside world, showing them that we will attend barcrafts will induce new investment into the space. I remember how surprised the venue owners were at a barcraft I attended.. "who are these people", "why are we so busy on a sunday afternoon". "Whats that on TV". Those are the engagements we need.
Totally wrong. You can't charge more for watching SC2 until you fix the fundamental issues that make it different from watching football. More monetization simply strangles it. I sure as hell aren't paying for more than what I do now - NASL and GSL.
On February 13 2012 00:00 Timerly wrote: It's funny how even people like Boss argue against the most basic principles of economics and consumer behaviour. To my knowledge no company has made profits by forcing something on its consumers without some monopoly. I also think that even GSL and such are still startups in relative terms. Do people really believe the actual hardcore fanbase for SC2 is that big? We need tons more internal numbers before saying anything of the like. Relative subscription rates for GOM, who bought which package...it's just not there for anybody but GOM, not even for Boss. You can talk all day, there's no basis. All kinds of different businesses have taken all kinds of different paths to success or failure. There are professionals in the most niche of sports and there are companies who live off the broadcasting. E-sports history tells us that making predictions is waaaay harder than it might seem even to the most experienced business people. Remember CS in 2000? Stuff got serious. The huge CPL and what came of it. WCG growth and decline. Nothing so far points to a clear direction.
My very personal opinion is that Blizzard should back all of this. The whole thing is built around people consuming their product. They wouldn't even have to make profits, any money from it would just flow back into their marketing budget which is enough to run 10 GSLs and might return quite a bit more in long term effects. Kotick likes exploiting franchises at least annually, obviously keeping people playing and wanting the next installment should be a priority in marketing, yet they choose to randomly dish out advertisement instead of turning SC2 into an even bigger phenomenon. You can make that stuff a trend, you need the opinion leaders in gaming, the hardcore crowd. I alone got like a dozen people to at least try SC2, about half of them bought it...and I'm far from the extremely hardcore crowd. I didn't pay for any events, yet I made SC2 grow. This is what should really matter here because those were at least 250$ worth of sales. Do I have to mention how multiplication and powers work? If that doesn't happen we can talk all day but SC2 won't get anywhere near the point it could go. Game lifespans are too short. Even BW had a dozen years to grow and still remained niche. You can't get the financial backing to make something explode without Blizzard's involvement.
Organisations like ESL do most stuff right. They don't go overboard on prize money, they keep the production quality up while travelling around the world and most important of all, they hedge their risks. Have multiple games in your leagues, guys, it doesn't hurt anybody. Why get all this setup only for SC2 when you could run CS, LoL, DotA and a dozen more tournaments with the same equipment? That's just wasting potential with your fixed costs being quite a huge chunk of your whole financial structure.
SC2 numbers are indecline not increase. Viewer numbers are in decline (outside of korea). The korean scene is starting to grow a good viewerbase and you can notice this at the gom studio with more people venturing towards it. GOM has been providing a free stream for a long time, with no revenue at all entering their coffers. They provide a product more than worth the money it costs. They have given plenty to the community, answered to feed back for more than 12 months and adjusted to fit to the community. Their HQ stream is better than anything else out there and more stable, and they rarely have major stream issues of which they are quick to fix. They are endorsed by blizzard (they have rights to the korean sc2 monopoly) and SHOULD monetize on it to expand further for the viewing experience and to support the players who are struggling financially.
If they continue to provide it free, with no ad revenue (which subscriptions is more cost efficient) then they will inevitably implode if a sponsor pulls its funding. If they were to create a very affordable HQ m/m subscription, they will support the growth of their business, as well as the industry as a whole. I dont see why if there was funding for it, GOM wouldn't pick up other games and increase the standard of content quality across the broad. At the moment only sc2 has decent production and regular streamed events.
If GOM is going to do BUSINESS right, they need to monetize correctly, where there is money. There is currently very little money in the sponsorship market, there is no merchandise thats worth buying and ad revenue is extremely low to the point that its laughable. Cheap subscription is the best way for GOM to monetize. GOM being the only entity who has a 99.99% ready product for sale.
In no way to I compare GOM to FXO's event. It would be insulting GOM. FXO is no where near as established as gom, and its entirely why we do not do quality cuts, or content prevention, or anything else for those who subscribe. Its merely a way to dodge ads and win prizes. And until my product is close to goms, I would never force subscriptions or hurt those who don't subscribe (except subscriber only chat because sometimes chat goes nuts).
So yeh, we can talk about this again when my product is super HD and sexified like GOM's.
Finally someone came out and said it.
Please show proof of this. I can give you several examples of the opposite.
I agree with Mr. Bitter, but the price is too high. Make it like at the GSL with yearly tickets abonnements and 1 free stream or 2 without vods, loads of ads, bad quality, around 360p. The Premium pass, with access to all features, Vods, HD, no Ads, Premium Streams, Special content during Ad-pause, About everything you CAN deliver for "free" (no extra charge).
But PPV ain´t the way, if there are so many guys and girls protesting, there may be a drastical cut on viewers, especially the casual viewer who only watch big events, they will never be willing to pay.
I´m no buisness man, but im sure you´ll lose half your viewership of sc2, since there are way more people watching than playing and nerding around like me!
There's nothing wrong with monotization. If the monotizer's only agenda is to make money instead of entertaining, then the monotizer will lose ratings then shutdown and restore balance to the universe.
I think $20 is a bit extortionate to be honest, $10 would maybe even be too much. It's not like the leagues are all currently dying due to lack of funding and I think getting their cash from advertising is the best way of doing it.
I'd be willing to pay a small fee, like $5 and that would mean more people are willing to pay so in turn probably making them more money, but thats it really. The problem with charging though at the moment is that the current casters and streaming is no were near the proffesional level where I'd accept that charge, awkward pauses, uncomfortable/in jokes and just plain bad commentating is rife at times. Add that to long waits between matches and random issues due to Blizz's lack of support for such tournaments and its all a bit much to put up with when you are paying imo.
I feel that it would be just milking your hardcore fanbase. Maybe you'd get some short term revenue, but you prevent the scene from growing.
Looking at Korea, what made BW successful wasn't really about how much people paid to watch games, but rather on how it managed to seep into the general pop culture.
A lot of people I know didn't really get that much into SC2 or GSL because you had to pay. Now they all moved on to LoL.
everyone should just take FXO invitational as a comparison. With their first week analysis 132763 unique viewers. 66 subscribers to the event which was only $5. and this is 5 weekends of games. Might not be as high in terms of productive value compared to MLG and the player quality is quite similar though. $5... And they have a huge raffle with really good prizes to encourage subscribers. I don't know what the numbers of subscribers are at now but you can see what part and how much the sc2 community will pay.
On February 15 2012 12:10 Northern_iight wrote: everyone should just take FXO invitational as a comparison. With their first week analysis 132763 unique viewers. 66 subscribers to the event which was only $5. and this is 5 weekends of games. Might not be as high in terms of productive value compared to MLG and the player quality is quite similar though. $5... And they have a huge raffle with really good prizes to encourage subscribers. I don't know what the numbers of subscribers are at now but you can see what part and how much the sc2 community will pay.
Let's suppose all the big budget tournaments go under, and we only have FXOpen, ESVision, and the barcraft-funded tournaments left of any scale. Is that a future we are willing to accept?