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Stop making comparisons beteween Korean players and NA/EU its nonsense . Progaming i way more developed in Korea so its normal that NA/EU players are not all as serious as Koreans .
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On February 01 2012 04:46 magnaflow wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 04:36 ilikeredheads wrote:
I don't get all the people defending Stephano. Let this put this into perspective. Stephano is a progamer, as in PROFESSIONAL gamer. This is part of his job. Too say you too tired to play in a tournament (finals, no less) is just unacceptable. If a professional athlete says he is too damned tired to play, how would his team, or the fans feel?? Or let's put it this way, if you said the same thing to your boss, you would be told not to come back to work tomorrow.
To say this is the responsibility of the tournament directors is just ridiculous. No event revolves their schedule around one player. They aren't the ones issuing the ultimatum; Stephano is. If I am one of the organizers, I would be pretty damn pissed. What Stephano has showed is his lack of professionalism and respect for tournaments. Here's a red mushroom, you'll need it. Who gave him the title "professional"? As far as I can tell this is just some kid who is good at the game trying to make some money to secure his futue profession.
He is paid to play. A real contract and a real salary. That makes him pro player. But I bet nowhere in his contract it is said that he should play 12 hours a day or at 2 AM. His manager (Llewelys) said he was fine with the decision Stephano took as he penalized himself and not the team, and that Stephano's decision to stop because he was exhausted was fine as well. He didn't have anything against ONOG as well, as they can do whatever they want with their tournament.
On a side note, I find it extremely funny a non-issue like this (both parties are fine and departed in good terms) managed to create more than 1500 commentaries on TL :D
Besides, every argument was repeated dozen of times, has been beaten to death and analysed over and beyond. Time to lock imho.
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On February 01 2012 03:31 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 03:11 Jibba wrote:On February 01 2012 02:42 Longshank wrote:On February 01 2012 02:17 Jibba wrote:On February 01 2012 01:59 mcc wrote:On February 01 2012 01:41 Jibba wrote:
If it's simply about viewers, then why not replace all foreigners in tournaments with Chinese players? Put all the foreigners out of jobs. They cost more, draw less viewers and aren't as accomodating. The Divina female tournament pulled 400,000 in China. Imagine what would happen for a major prize pool.
And if you want a homegrown option, then tournaments can just feature LoL. Dumber player drama, but less tournament drama and 3x-5x the viewers.
All about viewership, right? Just because there are more profitable investments does not mean that there won't be any investors to the less profitable "niche" areas. As long as they are profitable, and that depends on viewers. So I see nothing in your post to actually challenge that assertion. I see ways it can potentially be challenged, but that is not it. It is of course more complex it is about viewers only so much as number of viewers can be counted to correlate with people buying (or positively affecting by word of "mouth") products of the sponsors. So in the end it is about conversion ratio between viewers and customers. But also note where this discussion about viewers came from. It was a response to a guy claiming that in analogy to political process voting is equivalent to posting on a forum. Others pointed out that voting is more analogous to watching content. I see no reason to make it into some tangent as it was just a response to bad analogy. EDIT: Now that I think about it I might have misunderstood you. If your post was a reaction to my post about Stephano having a lot of stream viewers then part of my response is still valid, but the rest not  . I would just add that even that was meant to dispel the bad analogy with elections, not to draw any moral "ought" conclusions. What if, knowing that Stephano might cause a disruption in your tournament, you invite all of the same normal players such as Kas, Dimaga, etc. but for Stephano's spot, include a top Chinese player? My point is that you say he has leverage because of his stream numbers, but I don't think it's as much as you think it is. You trade the French market for the Chinese one, and still get the rest of Europe/NA. I think organizers can live with that. They could of course benefit from that. Then again, they would benefit even more if they invited both Stephano and the Chinese guy instead of players like Machine or Hasuobs(just examples) Machine doesn't disrupt tournaments. Stephano did it twice last night. Neither does Stephano. You have to put things into perspective, this is the first(that I've heard of at least, could be more) out of what, 100 to 200 over a year? Looking at statistics it's far more risky to invite Polt than Stephano.
Let me get this straight..... he caused a 45 minute delay for a match and then later refuses to play the finals....... but he doesn't disrupt tournaments? Are you sure that's what you wanted to say?
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On February 01 2012 04:51 Mr Showtime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 03:31 Longshank wrote:On February 01 2012 03:11 Jibba wrote:On February 01 2012 02:42 Longshank wrote:On February 01 2012 02:17 Jibba wrote:On February 01 2012 01:59 mcc wrote:On February 01 2012 01:41 Jibba wrote:
If it's simply about viewers, then why not replace all foreigners in tournaments with Chinese players? Put all the foreigners out of jobs. They cost more, draw less viewers and aren't as accomodating. The Divina female tournament pulled 400,000 in China. Imagine what would happen for a major prize pool.
And if you want a homegrown option, then tournaments can just feature LoL. Dumber player drama, but less tournament drama and 3x-5x the viewers.
All about viewership, right? Just because there are more profitable investments does not mean that there won't be any investors to the less profitable "niche" areas. As long as they are profitable, and that depends on viewers. So I see nothing in your post to actually challenge that assertion. I see ways it can potentially be challenged, but that is not it. It is of course more complex it is about viewers only so much as number of viewers can be counted to correlate with people buying (or positively affecting by word of "mouth") products of the sponsors. So in the end it is about conversion ratio between viewers and customers. But also note where this discussion about viewers came from. It was a response to a guy claiming that in analogy to political process voting is equivalent to posting on a forum. Others pointed out that voting is more analogous to watching content. I see no reason to make it into some tangent as it was just a response to bad analogy. EDIT: Now that I think about it I might have misunderstood you. If your post was a reaction to my post about Stephano having a lot of stream viewers then part of my response is still valid, but the rest not . I would just add that even that was meant to dispel the bad analogy with elections, not to draw any moral "ought" conclusions. What if, knowing that Stephano might cause a disruption in your tournament, you invite all of the same normal players such as Kas, Dimaga, etc. but for Stephano's spot, include a top Chinese player? My point is that you say he has leverage because of his stream numbers, but I don't think it's as much as you think it is. You trade the French market for the Chinese one, and still get the rest of Europe/NA. I think organizers can live with that. They could of course benefit from that. Then again, they would benefit even more if they invited both Stephano and the Chinese guy instead of players like Machine or Hasuobs(just examples) Machine doesn't disrupt tournaments. Stephano did it twice last night. Neither does Stephano. You have to put things into perspective, this is the first(that I've heard of at least, could be more) out of what, 100 to 200 over a year? Looking at statistics it's far more risky to invite Polt than Stephano. Let me get this straight..... he's 45 minutes late for a match and then later refuses to play the finals....... but he doesn't disrupt tournaments? Are you sure that's what you wanted to say?
No, he wasn't 45 min late. He asked if could a break for eating, which he then got.
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On February 01 2012 04:21 Testuser wrote:
Really, if Stephano had been your friend, and you had been sitting besides him, seen him play 12 hours that day, and at 2:30 am he is STILL playing and now on to playing a Bo5 vs Kas, what would you think? I bet that you wouldn't tell him to continue playing.
I actually would try to convince him to play. Not because I am a bad friend, but because I am a good friend. I would understand his exhaustion and his desire to just retire for the night, however, I would remind him why he is playing and that he only has one match left and then he can sleep as long as he wants. I think that I would be in a better mindset at the time so I would be able to make better decisions than a player how has been playing for 12 hours straight.
I understand why he stopped playing and I really cannot blame him. Nonetheless, I do think that he should have continued and played that last match.
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Oh man, days and days later, people are finally starting to come to their senses a little bit.
How could there be so much to talk about regarding one guy who wanted to quit out?
at the end of the day, anyone who criticizes Stephano or any other player, should try playing some starcraft and getting to the top echelons in the world. Only then can you stand and make a judgement about what to lengths he should go when playing in an online tournament, and how much he should compromise his personal well-being to entertain fans.
If you are just a spectator, its time to shut the fuck up and move on. No moral high ground, no righteous declarations about e-sport or sportsmanship or respect or even about sponsors. No talking about "WOULD A KOREAN DO THIS???" either, that racist shit is getting old -- As if koreans have never had questionable conduct in online tournaments. Or have we forgotten about all the match fixing? People got less angry about that than they are about this, which do you think compromises a tournament more?
Every little thing every pro-gamer does, doesn't have to turn into a 500 page TMZ experience for the community. it just makes us look sad, pathetic and obsessive, and will drive away newcomers. You can be disappointed, as a fan, but not indignant or angry.. And certainly you are in no position to call for retribution, nor declare what the scale of that retribution should be.
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Even Reddit lets such a pathetic story like this one go away after 24 hours. This is big news though, better stay top of the fold top of Community News for 3-4 days.
Have we heard everyone's well informed opinion? I'm sure page 70 will hold some gems.
Its great that the community cares so much about THE GAME. You can tell by the 6 pages in the GSL section of community news. - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=307720
Meanwhile, the thread created about another invite who forfeited the tournament as well, which wasn't in Community News, just sc2 general, has been closed. - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=307685
(Closed, with apology I might add)
You reap what you sow. Ugly trend.
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On February 01 2012 04:53 drgoats wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 04:21 Testuser wrote:
Really, if Stephano had been your friend, and you had been sitting besides him, seen him play 12 hours that day, and at 2:30 am he is STILL playing and now on to playing a Bo5 vs Kas, what would you think? I bet that you wouldn't tell him to continue playing.
I actually would try to convince him to play. Not because I am a bad friend, but because I am a good friend. I would understand his exhaustion and his desire to just retire for the night, however, I would remind him why he is playing and that he only has one match left and then he can sleep as long as he wants. I think that I would be in a better mindset at the time so I would be able to make better decisions than a player how has been playing for 12 hours straight. I understand why he stopped playing and I really cannot blame him. Nonetheless, I do think that he should have continued and played that last match.
It wasn't "that last match". It was a Bo5 vs Kas. And when they first asked, he even had to wait till after the 3rd place match. While I can see what you're saying, if you'd been sitting beside him for the past 12 hours while he was playing, I doubt you would want him to continue. But you know yourself better than I do.
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On February 01 2012 04:36 Auren wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 04:24 s4life wrote:
Is this still going on? I wouldn't be surprised if some people went full retard over this and tried to justify Stephano's actions. He deserves a few bans in the next LAN tournaments imho. You probably shouldn't read the thread lol. There were some people even praising him for it and saying they gained respect for him for forfeiting the finals of a tournament.
Oh wow, that's pretty f-ed up. I probably should stay away from this then heh. I feel e-sports has waaaaays to go in order to become legit. I mean if this shit happens without any serious repercussions, sponsors wouldn't exactly feel compelled to invest in prize money in tournaments if the participating players could just choose to log off before playing the finals.
chao.
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On February 01 2012 04:52 Testuser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 04:51 Mr Showtime wrote:
[
Let me get this straight..... he's 45 minutes late for a match and then later refuses to play the finals....... but he doesn't disrupt tournaments? Are you sure that's what you wanted to say? No, he wasn't 45 min late. He asked if could a break for eating, which he then got.
Wait wait wait.......He took a 45min break and THEN decided he was too tired to play and told the organizers to fuck themselves??
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On February 01 2012 04:58 ilikeredheads wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 04:52 Testuser wrote:On February 01 2012 04:51 Mr Showtime wrote:
[
Let me get this straight..... he's 45 minutes late for a match and then later refuses to play the finals....... but he doesn't disrupt tournaments? Are you sure that's what you wanted to say? No, he wasn't 45 min late. He asked if could a break for eating, which he then got. Wait wait wait.......He took a 45min break and THEN decided he was too tired to play and told the organizers to fuck themselves??
I'm pretty sure he never told anyone to go fuck themselves.
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United States22883 Posts
On February 01 2012 04:57 Testuser wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 04:53 drgoats wrote:On February 01 2012 04:21 Testuser wrote:
Really, if Stephano had been your friend, and you had been sitting besides him, seen him play 12 hours that day, and at 2:30 am he is STILL playing and now on to playing a Bo5 vs Kas, what would you think? I bet that you wouldn't tell him to continue playing.
I actually would try to convince him to play. Not because I am a bad friend, but because I am a good friend. I would understand his exhaustion and his desire to just retire for the night, however, I would remind him why he is playing and that he only has one match left and then he can sleep as long as he wants. I think that I would be in a better mindset at the time so I would be able to make better decisions than a player how has been playing for 12 hours straight. I understand why he stopped playing and I really cannot blame him. Nonetheless, I do think that he should have continued and played that last match. It wasn't "that last match". It was a Bo5 vs Kas. And when they first asked, he even had to wait till after the 3rd place match. While I can see what you're saying, if you'd been sitting beside him for the past 12 hours while he was playing, I doubt you would want him to continue. But you know yourself better than I do.
They offered to let him play the grand finals before the 3rd place match, and they'd cast it from replays.
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Canada13389 Posts
On February 01 2012 04:58 ilikeredheads wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 04:52 Testuser wrote:On February 01 2012 04:51 Mr Showtime wrote:
[
Let me get this straight..... he's 45 minutes late for a match and then later refuses to play the finals....... but he doesn't disrupt tournaments? Are you sure that's what you wanted to say? No, he wasn't 45 min late. He asked if could a break for eating, which he then got. Wait wait wait.......He took a 45min break and THEN decided he was too tired to play and told the organizers to fuck themselves??
No he took 45 minutes, then decided to play the semis then told the organizers he was too tired to play
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On February 01 2012 04:51 Mr Showtime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 03:31 Longshank wrote:On February 01 2012 03:11 Jibba wrote:On February 01 2012 02:42 Longshank wrote:On February 01 2012 02:17 Jibba wrote:On February 01 2012 01:59 mcc wrote:On February 01 2012 01:41 Jibba wrote:
If it's simply about viewers, then why not replace all foreigners in tournaments with Chinese players? Put all the foreigners out of jobs. They cost more, draw less viewers and aren't as accomodating. The Divina female tournament pulled 400,000 in China. Imagine what would happen for a major prize pool.
And if you want a homegrown option, then tournaments can just feature LoL. Dumber player drama, but less tournament drama and 3x-5x the viewers.
All about viewership, right? Just because there are more profitable investments does not mean that there won't be any investors to the less profitable "niche" areas. As long as they are profitable, and that depends on viewers. So I see nothing in your post to actually challenge that assertion. I see ways it can potentially be challenged, but that is not it. It is of course more complex it is about viewers only so much as number of viewers can be counted to correlate with people buying (or positively affecting by word of "mouth") products of the sponsors. So in the end it is about conversion ratio between viewers and customers. But also note where this discussion about viewers came from. It was a response to a guy claiming that in analogy to political process voting is equivalent to posting on a forum. Others pointed out that voting is more analogous to watching content. I see no reason to make it into some tangent as it was just a response to bad analogy. EDIT: Now that I think about it I might have misunderstood you. If your post was a reaction to my post about Stephano having a lot of stream viewers then part of my response is still valid, but the rest not . I would just add that even that was meant to dispel the bad analogy with elections, not to draw any moral "ought" conclusions. What if, knowing that Stephano might cause a disruption in your tournament, you invite all of the same normal players such as Kas, Dimaga, etc. but for Stephano's spot, include a top Chinese player? My point is that you say he has leverage because of his stream numbers, but I don't think it's as much as you think it is. You trade the French market for the Chinese one, and still get the rest of Europe/NA. I think organizers can live with that. They could of course benefit from that. Then again, they would benefit even more if they invited both Stephano and the Chinese guy instead of players like Machine or Hasuobs(just examples) Machine doesn't disrupt tournaments. Stephano did it twice last night. Neither does Stephano. You have to put things into perspective, this is the first(that I've heard of at least, could be more) out of what, 100 to 200 over a year? Looking at statistics it's far more risky to invite Polt than Stephano. Let me get this straight..... he's 45 minutes late for a match and then later refuses to play the finals....... but he doesn't disrupt tournaments? Are you sure that's what you wanted to say?
Saying he disrupts tournaments implies it's something he regularly does or at least has done on multiple occasions. It's not.
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On February 01 2012 05:02 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 04:57 Testuser wrote:On February 01 2012 04:53 drgoats wrote:On February 01 2012 04:21 Testuser wrote:
Really, if Stephano had been your friend, and you had been sitting besides him, seen him play 12 hours that day, and at 2:30 am he is STILL playing and now on to playing a Bo5 vs Kas, what would you think? I bet that you wouldn't tell him to continue playing.
I actually would try to convince him to play. Not because I am a bad friend, but because I am a good friend. I would understand his exhaustion and his desire to just retire for the night, however, I would remind him why he is playing and that he only has one match left and then he can sleep as long as he wants. I think that I would be in a better mindset at the time so I would be able to make better decisions than a player how has been playing for 12 hours straight. I understand why he stopped playing and I really cannot blame him. Nonetheless, I do think that he should have continued and played that last match. It wasn't "that last match". It was a Bo5 vs Kas. And when they first asked, he even had to wait till after the 3rd place match. While I can see what you're saying, if you'd been sitting beside him for the past 12 hours while he was playing, I doubt you would want him to continue. But you know yourself better than I do. They offered to let him play the grand finals before the 3rd place match, and they'd cast it from replays.
Yes, I'm aware, that's why I said when they first asked. I still think a Bo5 vs Kas is quite a taxing task.
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On February 01 2012 04:57 s4life wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 04:36 Auren wrote:On February 01 2012 04:24 s4life wrote:
Is this still going on? I wouldn't be surprised if some people went full retard over this and tried to justify Stephano's actions. He deserves a few bans in the next LAN tournaments imho. You probably shouldn't read the thread lol. There were some people even praising him for it and saying they gained respect for him for forfeiting the finals of a tournament. Oh wow, that's pretty f-ed up. I probably should stay away from this then heh. I feel e-sports has waaaaays to go in order to become legit. I mean if this shit happens without any serious repercussions, sponsors wouldn't exactly feel compelled to invest in prize money in tournaments if the participating players could just choose to log off before playing the finals. chao.
Well he was offered the opportunity to play right away if I recall but he passed on it. (the guy above me beat me to it)
Even if he wasn't given that opportunity, I would have told him to go rest for an hour and I will contact him when his match is ready. There are ways to overcome his tiredness and to continue. As his friend I would have realized the significance of playing that match, not only because of what he can win but also so that we can avoid drama like this.
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On February 01 2012 05:05 drgoats wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 04:57 s4life wrote:On February 01 2012 04:36 Auren wrote:On February 01 2012 04:24 s4life wrote:
Is this still going on? I wouldn't be surprised if some people went full retard over this and tried to justify Stephano's actions. He deserves a few bans in the next LAN tournaments imho. You probably shouldn't read the thread lol. There were some people even praising him for it and saying they gained respect for him for forfeiting the finals of a tournament. Oh wow, that's pretty f-ed up. I probably should stay away from this then heh. I feel e-sports has waaaaays to go in order to become legit. I mean if this shit happens without any serious repercussions, sponsors wouldn't exactly feel compelled to invest in prize money in tournaments if the participating players could just choose to log off before playing the finals. chao. Well he was offered the opportunity to play right away if I recall but he passed on it. (the guy above me beat me to it) Even if he wasn't given that opportunity, I would have told him to go rest for an hour and I will contact him when his match is ready. There are ways to overcome his tiredness and to continue. As his friend I would have realized the significance of playing that match, not only because of what he can win but also so that we can avoid drama like this.
Stephano doesn't care about Drama, he never has, he never will. When you see him for real you wonder how he can play that fast and be so stoned ...
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On February 01 2012 05:11 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 05:05 drgoats wrote:On February 01 2012 04:57 s4life wrote:On February 01 2012 04:36 Auren wrote:On February 01 2012 04:24 s4life wrote:
Is this still going on? I wouldn't be surprised if some people went full retard over this and tried to justify Stephano's actions. He deserves a few bans in the next LAN tournaments imho. You probably shouldn't read the thread lol. There were some people even praising him for it and saying they gained respect for him for forfeiting the finals of a tournament. Oh wow, that's pretty f-ed up. I probably should stay away from this then heh. I feel e-sports has waaaaays to go in order to become legit. I mean if this shit happens without any serious repercussions, sponsors wouldn't exactly feel compelled to invest in prize money in tournaments if the participating players could just choose to log off before playing the finals. chao. Well he was offered the opportunity to play right away if I recall but he passed on it. (the guy above me beat me to it) Even if he wasn't given that opportunity, I would have told him to go rest for an hour and I will contact him when his match is ready. There are ways to overcome his tiredness and to continue. As his friend I would have realized the significance of playing that match, not only because of what he can win but also so that we can avoid drama like this. Stephano doesn't care about Drama, he never has, he never will. When you see him for real you wonder how he can play that fast and be so stoned ...
Apparently, that's not the only thing he doesn't care for...
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On February 01 2012 05:11 Otolia wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 05:05 drgoats wrote:On February 01 2012 04:57 s4life wrote:On February 01 2012 04:36 Auren wrote:On February 01 2012 04:24 s4life wrote:
Is this still going on? I wouldn't be surprised if some people went full retard over this and tried to justify Stephano's actions. He deserves a few bans in the next LAN tournaments imho. You probably shouldn't read the thread lol. There were some people even praising him for it and saying they gained respect for him for forfeiting the finals of a tournament. Oh wow, that's pretty f-ed up. I probably should stay away from this then heh. I feel e-sports has waaaaays to go in order to become legit. I mean if this shit happens without any serious repercussions, sponsors wouldn't exactly feel compelled to invest in prize money in tournaments if the participating players could just choose to log off before playing the finals. chao. Well he was offered the opportunity to play right away if I recall but he passed on it. (the guy above me beat me to it) Even if he wasn't given that opportunity, I would have told him to go rest for an hour and I will contact him when his match is ready. There are ways to overcome his tiredness and to continue. As his friend I would have realized the significance of playing that match, not only because of what he can win but also so that we can avoid drama like this. Stephano doesn't care about Drama, he never has, he never will. When you see him for real you wonder how he can play that fast and be so stoned ...
lol that means he just smoked his eyes out at late night and was too high to play hahha
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On February 01 2012 05:16 Boonbag wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2012 05:11 Otolia wrote:On February 01 2012 05:05 drgoats wrote:On February 01 2012 04:57 s4life wrote:On February 01 2012 04:36 Auren wrote:On February 01 2012 04:24 s4life wrote:
Is this still going on? I wouldn't be surprised if some people went full retard over this and tried to justify Stephano's actions. He deserves a few bans in the next LAN tournaments imho. You probably shouldn't read the thread lol. There were some people even praising him for it and saying they gained respect for him for forfeiting the finals of a tournament. Oh wow, that's pretty f-ed up. I probably should stay away from this then heh. I feel e-sports has waaaaays to go in order to become legit. I mean if this shit happens without any serious repercussions, sponsors wouldn't exactly feel compelled to invest in prize money in tournaments if the participating players could just choose to log off before playing the finals. chao. Well he was offered the opportunity to play right away if I recall but he passed on it. (the guy above me beat me to it) Even if he wasn't given that opportunity, I would have told him to go rest for an hour and I will contact him when his match is ready. There are ways to overcome his tiredness and to continue. As his friend I would have realized the significance of playing that match, not only because of what he can win but also so that we can avoid drama like this. Stephano doesn't care about Drama, he never has, he never will. When you see him for real you wonder how he can play that fast and be so stoned ... lol that means he just smoked his eyes out at late night and was too high to play hahha
Dang that after beating a tournament then talking a nap would be cloud nine for sure!
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EPT
