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On December 05 2011 23:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 22:47 thezanursic wrote:On December 05 2011 22:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 22:35 thezanursic wrote:On December 05 2011 22:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 22:18 thezanursic wrote:On December 05 2011 22:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 19:48 Spaceneil8 wrote:Lowest overall Terran win rate ever. Tbh, this leaves me with a little smile on my face.  Yeah. First time they're (baaaaarely) under 50% hahahaha. Protoss actually balancing out a bit? Finally *-* Now, if we can only hope that results level off at the 50% mark and don't continue to swap percentages! It's also too bad that some people consider one race to have a bit of an advantage in one stage of the game, and another race to be stronger in a different stage. I don't get why people look at the OVERALL stats. Look at the specific MUs would the game be balanced if it were TvP 20% win rate and TvZ 80% the win rate would still be 50%. Theoreticly if the TvP winrate drops lower it's gonna be a problem, but if the TvZ rises higher TL will just ignore the problem due to one balancing the other out instead of fixing both. I did look at all the graphs, but the difference there didn't surprise me... Terrans aren't able to *just* use two ghosts and win anymore, because of the patch. Terrans are going to need to learn to incorporate a few extra ghosts in their armies, which completely counters the new patch, and then you can go ahead and enjoy the old months' win percentages where you used to stomp us (or, at least, balance out the win percentage at 50-50). It's okay, really it is. TvP is in fluctation because of that patch. There's not nearly enough ghost play, despite the fact that it completely shuts down Protoss, and Terran isn't nearly as gas-heavy as the other races, so it's viable. I agree. It's one of the I've played better and lost situation. Soo many times I miss an EMP and just die where Toss doesn't seem to have that problem late game, but I guess that counter acts the early game where an early ghost EMP just destroys the protoss if he doesn't split. Well to be fair, I'm pretty sure Protosses have straight up died to investing in high templar tech and missing their storms in the same way you mention missing EMPs with your ghosts. If you invest in tech and it doesn't pay off (especially with spellcasters), then you're already behind. In PvT, one army usually smashes the other, and so the battle will look even more one-sided if you have a smaller army and "useless" spellcasters (because they got picked off or you missed with their spells). I agree and first I'm going to talk about the middle tier leagues not the pros. TvP is hard due to Terran having to react what Protoss does I mean you gotta get vikings for colossus or you are dead you gotta get ghosts for storm. Soo the terran is always playing the reaction game late game when Protoss does that early game. The thing is that Terran is really strong early game and Protoss is really strong late game, but due to all the experience the good Protoss have gathered early pushes aren't a problem to deal with and that's why the win rates shifted. You're referring to the late game Protoss tech-switch as far as Terran being reactionary goes, right? I agree with you, and that does put Terran in a tough spot late game. I think the best solution to that is to find a way to keep tabs on the colossi and templar count (scans?), and do your best to keep your viking and ghost count at the appropriate numbers. Obviously, it's easier said than done, but every race has to constantly be scouting and have proper unit compositions, and the fact that Protoss can no longer have instant-storms with warp-in (they need a decent amount of time to get enough energy) gives Terran a small window of opportunity, and ghosts are always a good unit to have on the field anyway (meaning that your viking count is probably the most important to "worry" about, so keep a closer eye on the number of colossi and match appropriately). Note that in the early game, Protoss has to react to whatever the Terran does. Terran is the one who can wall off, forcing Protoss to get a quick observer (and yet have enough gateway units out to stop a fast push, *just in case*). There's the possibility of cloaked banshees and blue flame hellion drops as well,. Also, throughout the mid and late game, keep in mind that Terran is far more mobile (Terran generally doesn't go mech, and Protoss hardly ever goes air), which also makes drop harrass far more effective for Terran and less effective for Protoss (although warp prisms definitely can be useful- don't get me wrong- just generally not as useful as medivac drops). Constant drop harrass and multi-pronged attacks often spread the Protoss army very thin, and the fact that the medivac heals your units often means that Protoss has to overcompensate with the number of units they bring back to clean up quickly. How can warp prisms generally be not as useful?I'd feel much more confident with a warp prism than 2 medivacs in most situations, they allow you to summon everything you have anywhere you want and they don't die as fast , warp prism based allins are clearly the most unstoppable ones out there if they go unscouted, and they're far from easy to scout, even with scans, just spread out your gateways and most terrans won't differentiate it from a standard robo opening.The unit boost you get from your extra production facilities is instant and ignores defensive positions, there's no travel time and way too small of a breathing room.
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Overall 1% within 50% win rates
TvZ looks comparable. From what I have seen in tournaments, i would have guessed that zerg had the upper hand.
Big adjustment in TvP because of the ghost change. I suspect this will rebound soon. Likely due to a lot of bad players (quote polt prime) that are in tournaments that htey shouldnt have even qualified for.
8 months of zerg dominating protoss continues
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Think this is closest to getting T balanced , still don't like PvZ cuz its way to luck based but alas is not the total 42% P that we had last month.
Yey for PvT... to bad a lot of average T are still winning over good tosses see + Show Spoiler + but it always seems to me that the pro LANs are a lil different then the online tournament in the race dominance sector so i hope we see some more of the good tosses raise and some more of the bad/avg T fall there as well in the next few months.
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On December 05 2011 23:56 Roxy wrote:
Overall 1% within 50% win rates
TvZ looks comparable. From what I have seen in tournaments, i would have guessed that zerg had the upper hand.
Big adjustment in TvP because of the ghost change. I suspect this will rebound soon. Likely due to a lot of bad players (quote polt prime) that are in tournaments that htey shouldnt have even qualified for.
8 months of zerg dominating protoss continues
Polt is bad?Really?Okay (or is that a quote from polt?seems unlikely).
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On December 05 2011 23:57 Aterons_toss wrote:
Think this is closest to getting T balanced , still don't like PvZ cuz its way to luck based but alas is not the total 42% P that we had last month.
Yey for PvT... to bad a lot of average T are still winning over good tosses see [spoiler]GSL semi NASL final[/spoiler] but it always seems to me that the pro LANs are a lil different then the online tournament in the race dominance sector so i hope we see some more of the good tosses raise and some more of the bad/avg T fall there as well in the next few months.
Are you serious? The GSL champion, Jjakji is an average Terran? PuMa is an average Terran?
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On December 05 2011 20:16 red4ce wrote:
So the big question is, how do you balance PvZ without screwing up TvP or vice versa.
Now I could be extreamly wrong an in all likelyhood I am (since im only bronze though I atleast like to believe I have an extensive or atleast very decent knowledge of the game just not the multitasking skills or focus to attain higher lol) but I think what swings the the game in favor of zergs so much are the use of Mutas. On ladder, against friends, and practice partners of varying levels (bronze-med gold) I generally go muta,ling/bling into ultralisks (not gas effecient I know but I feel comfortable going this compo) an I just shut them down with mutas keeping them on 1-2base max until I get ultras out which then just go on a protoss all you can eat buffet binge. The Muta's manuverability and quickness make it easy to demolish mineral lines an tech structures until heavy anti air is invested in which delays the protoss an terren significantly atleast from what iv seen. Though to nerf Muta's would be rather difficult an break zerg's matchup against either race terren or protoss seeing as how its the only truly viable midgame harrass unit since most wall off against lings leaving only drop play an nydas which arent all too viable. Without that harass capability both races would go unchecked an mass up the deathball army to counter what ever zerg is doing every matchup since they'd get it so quickly with the minimal harass. I dont know if im wrong though I can only speak of how it appears to be to myself.
Sorry if thats hard to read, im not the best grammatically and im infamous for run on sentences lol >.< (and a lack of punctuation hence the run ons though >.<) lol
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On December 05 2011 23:56 Roxy wrote:
Overall 1% within 50% win rates
TvZ looks comparable. From what I have seen in tournaments, i would have guessed that zerg had the upper hand.
Big adjustment in TvP because of the ghost change. I suspect this will rebound soon. Likely due to a lot of bad players (quote polt prime) that are in tournaments that htey shouldnt have even qualified for.
8 months of zerg dominating protoss continues
Bad players are you kidding? You mean not as good. They aren't bronze they are just top 60 not top 30
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Hmm T>Z>P>T this looks familiar
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On December 05 2011 23:57 Aterons_toss wrote:Think this is closest to getting T balanced , still don't like PvZ cuz its way to luck based but alas is not the total 42% P that we had last month. Yey for PvT... to bad a lot of average T are still winning over good tosses see + Show Spoiler + but it always seems to me that the pro LANs are a lil different then the online tournament in the race dominance sector so i hope we see some more of the good tosses raise and some more of the bad/avg T fall there as well in the next few months.
You good sir have a bad case of mental retardation
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EMP'ing own units is silly - however, that said, I still believe ghost with tier 3 unit compositions are largely undiscovered in the TvP metagame. It's true that feedback counters raven/thors/banshees and such, but with good ghost snipe/emps, the templars themselves can be negated. No feedback = viable T3 terran units no?
If you watch Select play TvP, you'll notice that no templars ever gets close enough to feedback/storm his units - however in this case, instead of using snipe to prevent the ghost from getting fedback, you do it for the sake of protecting your other units. There's no difference, its still a ghost v templar battle which ghosts can and should come out on top.
As for ghost/raven + whatever composition being too much gas, if protoss can get collosus/templar/archons off of 3~4 bases, I honestly don't see why terrans can't gradually transition into a gas heavy army in the late game as well.
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On December 05 2011 23:56 Roxy wrote:
Overall 1% within 50% win rates
TvZ looks comparable. From what I have seen in tournaments, i would have guessed that zerg had the uppePolr hand.
Big adjustment in TvP because of the ghost change. I suspect this will rebound soon. Likely due to a lot of bad players (quote polt prime) that are in tournaments that htey shouldnt have even qualified for.
8 months of zerg dominating protoss continues
Polt is bad? Hence his being in Code A or S gotcha bud... /smh
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BCs can be easily stacked I think, so a single EMP can hit them all.
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It's been quite awhile since Terran had the lowest win rate eh?
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On December 05 2011 23:59 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 23:56 Roxy wrote:
Overall 1% within 50% win rates
TvZ looks comparable. From what I have seen in tournaments, i would have guessed that zerg had the upper hand.
Big adjustment in TvP because of the ghost change. I suspect this will rebound soon. Likely due to a lot of bad players (quote polt prime) that are in tournaments that htey shouldnt have even qualified for.
8 months of zerg dominating protoss continues Bad players are you kidding? You mean not as good. They aren't bronze they are just top 60 not top 30
Afraid I dont have a source, but im 99% certain that polt said something along the lines of "the reason there were so many terrans in code s was because terran was easy and they beat better zerg/protoss players"
Can anyone help me source this?
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On December 05 2011 23:59 Catatonic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 20:16 red4ce wrote:
So the big question is, how do you balance PvZ without screwing up TvP or vice versa. Now I could be extreamly wrong an in all likelyhood I am (since im only bronze though I atleast like to believe I have an extensive or atleast very decent knowledge of the game just not the multitasking skills or focus to attain higher lol) but I think what swings the the game in favor of zergs so much are the use of Mutas. On ladder, against friends, and practice partners of varying levels (bronze-med gold) I generally go muta,ling/bling into ultralisks (not gas effecient I know but I feel comfortable going this compo) an I just shut them down with mutas keeping them on 1-2base max until I get ultras out which then just go on a protoss all you can eat buffet binge. The Muta's manuverability and quickness make it easy to demolish mineral lines an tech structures until heavy anti air is invested in which delays the protoss an terren significantly atleast from what iv seen. Though to nerf Muta's would be rather difficult an break zerg's matchup against either race terren or protoss seeing as how its the only truly viable midgame harrass unit since most wall off against lings leaving only drop play an nydas which arent all too viable. Without that harass capability both races would go unchecked an mass up the deathball army to counter what ever zerg is doing every matchup since they'd get it so quickly with the minimal harass. I dont know if im wrong though I can only speak of how it appears to be to myself. Sorry if thats hard to read, im not the best grammatically and im infamous for run on sentences lol >.< (and a lack of punctuation hence the run ons though >.<) lol
Nerfing mutas isn't the answer. Terrans just have put down 6 turrets to defend. I think turrets could be SLIGHTLY buffed, but there is no reason to not get the turret range upgrade and around 6 turrets it pays of believe it or not it does. I'm not saying turret your main like you see in bronze just put down 6-10 turrets down at the side where mutas come from now only do this if the zerg is going heavy muta obviously don't do this against 10 mutas, but at 30 mutas 10 turrets should trade cost effectively or just keep the zerg from attacking you
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277047
I would even say it wouldn't be bad to just put down twice as many late game. Turrets aren't just a muta repeller it's also a way to buy time for your marines to arrive.
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On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point. I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started. Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much.
Do some people not think before they post?
Please go try mech an win the Gsl with it. Let's see how far you go with it.
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On December 06 2011 00:07 Roxy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 23:59 thezanursic wrote:On December 05 2011 23:56 Roxy wrote:
Overall 1% within 50% win rates
TvZ looks comparable. From what I have seen in tournaments, i would have guessed that zerg had the upper hand.
Big adjustment in TvP because of the ghost change. I suspect this will rebound soon. Likely due to a lot of bad players (quote polt prime) that are in tournaments that htey shouldnt have even qualified for.
8 months of zerg dominating protoss continues Bad players are you kidding? You mean not as good. They aren't bronze they are just top 60 not top 30 Afraid I dont have a source, but im 99% certain that polt said something along the lines of "the reason there were so many terrans in code s was because terran was easy and they beat better zerg/protoss players" Can anyone help me source this?
Well the koreans think top foreigners are bad. What does this tell you?
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On December 05 2011 19:58 RaNdOmOwNaGe wrote:
Really liking the overall stats, highest being 50.6 and lowest being 49.1 is pretty damn close.
The PvT graph is... not so good, jumped from big terran advantage to big protoss advantage... not very good. 54.2 to 45.8, do not like that very much. was it due to changes? I did not expect it to be like this, actually I guess I did with so many protoss staying in GSL.
ZvT looks pretty good, although zerg is still on the lower end I really think that 52-48 is nice, something like that is acceptable. Nothing really to note in this one... it looks pretty good and I reckon zergs will be winning more as time goes on.
PvZ got slightly better... but I think that this match-up will pretty much work itself out soon. The meta-game is changing and the balance changes didn't really change much.
It's pretty typical metagame shift, its just more noticeable because the patch enhanced it.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On December 05 2011 23:58 R!! wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 23:56 Roxy wrote:
Overall 1% within 50% win rates
TvZ looks comparable. From what I have seen in tournaments, i would have guessed that zerg had the upper hand.
Big adjustment in TvP because of the ghost change. I suspect this will rebound soon. Likely due to a lot of bad players (quote polt prime) that are in tournaments that htey shouldnt have even qualified for.
8 months of zerg dominating protoss continues Polt is bad?Really?Okay (or is that a quote from polt?seems unlikely).
Polt said during the total terran domination that many terran in code s didn't deserve it but they were because terran is an easy race
But the game has developped a lot since, not really that relevent anymore
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hopefully PvZ can develop into a stable matchup. right now its either the 2base all in or if the toss doesnt do damage they just get overrun in the late game ;/
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EPT
