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On December 12 2011 22:34 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 19:15 Big J wrote:On December 11 2011 17:28 doko100 wrote:On December 11 2011 16:52 Ownos wrote:
I'm... not sure if people are reading the graphs right. Especially the terran whiners... not sure how you can be pessimistic about your race when there's a big blue line hovering over everything else in any graph with a blue line lol. Euhm, it's not about the lines? well it's also about the lines. The lines show the 3month trend. The bars show the 1month trend. While if makes sense to do so, using one month as unit for the bar is just as arbitrary as using 1week or 3months would be. On December 11 2011 16:24 doko100 wrote:On December 11 2011 16:13 freetgy wrote:On December 11 2011 14:53 K3Nyy wrote:
I really disagree. Terrans especially in the lower leagues have been complaining about TvP lategame for a longgggggggg time. This balance patch and the winrates basically let them justify their whining further.
Some of what they say is justified in my opinion, especially the ease of late game Protoss vs Terran. but it's just very annoying to see whining all over the threads.
this will never change, as long as Terran stays on Bio till lategame. you can't have the advantage in early mid and lategame by staying with essentially the same core composition from the beginning. Obviously splash will kick in on the protoss side more on more and make the life harder for the Bio player. no balance patch will change that. lol, what else is the terran supposed to do? o.O well first off all, Terran wins a lot in the lategame with biocompositions, though I don't have any stats to know how many games really. A lot of it comes down to how many medivacs and ghosts you have in your composition at that time (the high Tier bio units), just like a zerg or Protoss that can max on roach/ling or zealot/stalker really fast, marine/marauder without the big flock of medivacs and the EMP-carpet isn't very efficient. Also 3/3 upgrades are obligatory (which I believe a lot of lower league Terrans have trouble with, as unlike Protoss and Zergs, Terran does not have a superpopular upgrade build right now which would teach people "that's how you do it!") Second of all, if the stats show that the game is balanced (which they don't) and if there is really a "lategame imbalance" (which I haven't seen any stats of), then you should just complain as hard about Terran being "imbalanced" in the early game (there is no other way that the game could be balanced otherwise). Also as low league player it is really easy to play Mech vs Protoss or just go to the strategy section and watch out for that "TvP pure Air"-guide, if you feel like bio isn't good enough lategame. Mech doesn't work vs. protoss in mid-master league+. And you talk about terran upgrades, protoss has chronoboosts so their upgrades will always be faster, there is no point in even trying to argue that a terran could ever be ahead in upgrades. Unless the protoss just decides to not upgrade his units at all, which is his own fault. edit: Also... Mech easy to play? Where did you pick that up? Trying to make Mech work vs. a competent protoss is nigh impossible and pretty much the hardest thing in the game.
That is why i wrote mech is an alternative for low leaguers who dont have the apm for MMMVG but also wont face extremly competent opponents. If you are diamond+ and you cant play bio mechanicswise then Im sorry for you, but youshould have considered that your skill wont be as high as your league when you cheesed yourself through platinum-. And yes, low league mech is easy to play as long as you find that siege button.
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On December 12 2011 22:47 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 02:07 Kwanny wrote:On December 11 2011 19:43 keglu wrote:On December 10 2011 07:33 ZenithM wrote:On December 10 2011 07:26 KingPwny wrote:Terran champions...yes that is all we we hear about. Terran so good when u are a skilled player. How about when ur not from korea? How about we look at race distribution from silver to masters: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/eu/1/all/14(lol @ 40 % zerg in GM, that says a lot I think!) Dya see how it's represented in EU? Could that be cos maybe Terran isn't OP and as hard or easy to play as other races? Well Zerg is more played than Terran overall in EU. Stats are similar starting down from Gold up to GM. Distribution R: 8.5% (21,303) P: 32.2% (80,558) T: 31.4% (78,459) Z: 27.8% (69,554) I don't even know from where you pulled those numbers. According to his link (and sc2ranks in general), terran isn't nearly as much played as zerg or toss. Really? http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/region/all/1/all
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
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On December 13 2011 00:05 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 22:47 keglu wrote:On December 12 2011 02:07 Kwanny wrote:On December 11 2011 19:43 keglu wrote:On December 10 2011 07:33 ZenithM wrote:On December 10 2011 07:26 KingPwny wrote:Terran champions...yes that is all we we hear about. Terran so good when u are a skilled player. How about when ur not from korea? How about we look at race distribution from silver to masters: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/eu/1/all/14(lol @ 40 % zerg in GM, that says a lot I think!) Dya see how it's represented in EU? Could that be cos maybe Terran isn't OP and as hard or easy to play as other races? Well Zerg is more played than Terran overall in EU. Stats are similar starting down from Gold up to GM. Distribution R: 8.5% (21,303) P: 32.2% (80,558) T: 31.4% (78,459) Z: 27.8% (69,554) I don't even know from where you pulled those numbers. According to his link (and sc2ranks in general), terran isn't nearly as much played as zerg or toss. Really? http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/region/all/1/all http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all
My graph shows race distribution in regions, yours shows race distribution in leagues, the both use the sam number but to get total amount of players from your graph you have to count it manually, so i dont really know what you are trying to show.
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What he's trying to show is:
In bronze/silver, T tend to be the majority, while higher up, T tends to be the minority. Considering how MMR works, this indicates that T have a harder time going up, i.e. they are at a disadvantage in evenly skilled matches -- probably due to the very high skill cap of T.
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On December 12 2011 22:22 CaptainCrush wrote:
That sad zealot thread came about because of endless ghost QQ'ing....
I LOL whenever I read these threads, the winrates dont necessarily mean the game is balanced. Is it fair that toss can A-move everywhere while a terran needs 300 APM and insane ghost micro to win? Is it balanced when a zerg can remax an army almost instantly? Not really....
These pros spend countless hours each day playing this game. They understand more than anyone where imbalance lies and exactly how to engage most circumstances. They have often come up with ways to get around an imbalanced situation which completely negates any kind of balance statistics for the pros. I still want to see the blizzard ladder results, I think those are more telling of which race is most imbalanced.
Yea, I agree. The game may very well be perfectly balanced at high level-- in BW we had P > T, T > Z, Z > P, and it worked out marvelously. But I've got to tell you as a masters Terran player-- and I see this sentiment echoed a lot, tvp is really really tough.
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On December 13 2011 02:36 shuurai wrote:
What he's trying to show is:
In bronze/silver, T tend to be the majority, while higher up, T tends to be the minority. Considering how MMR works, this indicates that T have a harder time going up, i.e. they are at a disadvantage in evenly skilled matches -- probably due to the very high skill cap of T.
The fat part is what I agree on, the other part is just a random explanation of that fact.
Other possible explantions for that stats:
-) Protoss and Zergs are harder to begin with, so there are less bronze players who even try those races.
-) Terran is boring, so less people play it seriously (only on low level there are a lot of terrans).
-) It's a metagame appearance, just like Zerg was in the exact same situation for quite some time after the start of SC2
-) Alien races are 'cooler' than humans.
-) The statistic is wrong.
-) It's a cultural appearance (see Korean race distribution compared to European)
-) something
or it could be as simple as:
-) King Leoric has thousands of slaves playing Zerg and Protoss for him on higher level, so the stats are twisted.
each of those explanations has as much value as yours, as there is absolutly no statistical data to back any of them (yours or mine) up.
Edit: I guess the cultural thing even has data to back it up...
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On December 13 2011 02:36 shuurai wrote:
What he's trying to show is:
In bronze/silver, T tend to be the majority, while higher up, T tends to be the minority. Considering how MMR works, this indicates that T have a harder time going up, i.e. they are at a disadvantage in evenly skilled matches -- probably due to the very high skill cap of T.
Or that new players, having played the campaign start out their venture onto the ladder with the only race they're somewhat familiar with.
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In future I think these stats should be posted and the threads insta-locked. No constructive discussion at all, so much mindless QQ'ing its disgusting.
To clarify, this is the first month which Terran hasn't exerted total dominance over the win rates. I think people need to give it a few months to see what happens before whining about imbalance. The ZvP stats are much worse than TvP yet that seems to be the focus, it makes no sense. And even though the ZvP stats are so skewed in Zergs favour, we see brilliant high level play from a lot of Protoss players in the match up (Hero and Brown come to mind) which actually makes the match up appear Protoss favoured. Its not as black and white as people love to make out.
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On December 13 2011 01:04 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 00:05 IMoperator wrote:On December 12 2011 22:47 keglu wrote:On December 12 2011 02:07 Kwanny wrote:On December 11 2011 19:43 keglu wrote:On December 10 2011 07:33 ZenithM wrote:On December 10 2011 07:26 KingPwny wrote:Terran champions...yes that is all we we hear about. Terran so good when u are a skilled player. How about when ur not from korea? How about we look at race distribution from silver to masters: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/eu/1/all/14(lol @ 40 % zerg in GM, that says a lot I think!) Dya see how it's represented in EU? Could that be cos maybe Terran isn't OP and as hard or easy to play as other races? Well Zerg is more played than Terran overall in EU. Stats are similar starting down from Gold up to GM. Distribution R: 8.5% (21,303) P: 32.2% (80,558) T: 31.4% (78,459) Z: 27.8% (69,554) I don't even know from where you pulled those numbers. According to his link (and sc2ranks in general), terran isn't nearly as much played as zerg or toss. Really? http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/region/all/1/all http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all My graph shows race distribution in regions, yours shows race distribution in leagues, the both use the sam number but to get total amount of players from your graph you have to count it manually, so i dont really know what you are trying to show.
Just trying to show that yours is kinda skewed because there are so many more people in bronze/silver that play terran so it raises the total number a ton.
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Hey this might be a stupid question but I was wondering if any of the other terrans on this fourm feel that terran win rates tanking are not a bad thing, IF it some how stops or reveses the ammount of terran hatred in the online community?
The reason I ask is because I watched a tourny a few days ago and one of the casters obviously hated terran, and was takeing any chance he could get to take a cheap shot at terran, the other caster was very funny and cool and for the most part would just ignore the other caster when he would say these things. Now terran bashing is nothing new to me but it was the first time I have seen it so obviously in a cast.
I guess what I'm asking is how big of price would you be willing to pay to change the opinion that terran is "op"
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I did some analysis on those numbers (added them up and spreadsheeted them, and graphed them half to death).
Yes, Zerg has by far the smallest drop in players per level from Bronze to Platinum, and Protoss is next lowest, then Terran. So it seems like you have the biggest chance to advance from Bronze to Platinum if you play Zerg.
But, there is a big change at Platinum, when the ratio between Diamond and Platinum is almost exactly the same (Zerg 59%, Protoss 56%, Terran 56%) - so it's already no longer about the race mechanics when you reach Platinum and want to advance to Diamond.
Like people have already said - it could be any reason, including that Zerg is most peoples' second race, so they're already skilled when they start it. Or maybe there's a strategy that works 95% of the time until Platinum, when it fails.
Either way, every game/sport has a minimum skill level you need to acquire for competition to be balanced - for Starcraft 2 I guess it's the level shown by the Platinum players of today. If so, then below Platinum it's just a question of practice.
You can't balance the game around the level of skill displayed by Bronze players who just bought it last week...or Silver players like me who play 1-2 hours a week
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On December 13 2011 04:29 Kresh wrote:
I did some analysis on those numbers (added them up and spreadsheeted them, and graphed them half to death).
Yes, Zerg has by far the smallest drop in players per level from Bronze to Platinum, and Protoss is next lowest, then Terran. So it seems like you have the biggest chance to advance from Bronze to Platinum if you play Zerg.
But, there is a big change at Platinum, when the ratio between Diamond and Platinum is almost exactly the same (Zerg 59%, Protoss 56%, Terran 56%) - so it's already no longer about the race mechanics when you reach Platinum and want to advance to Diamond.
Like people have already said - it could be any reason, including that Zerg is most peoples' second race, so they're already skilled when they start it. Or maybe there's a strategy that works 95% of the time until Platinum, when it fails.
Either way, every game/sport has a minimum skill level you need to acquire for competition to be balanced - for Starcraft 2 I guess it's the level shown by the Platinum players of today. If so, then below Platinum it's just a question of practice.
You can't balance the game around the level of skill displayed by Bronze players who just bought it last week...or Silver players like me who play 1-2 hours a week
There is a chance that this is just due to the campaign.
Most people who bought the game for the campaign and then played some games on battlenet would of played as Terran. These players would obviously stay in bronze. Since there was also a few protoss missions in the campaign, a small number of the mostly-single-player people might pick protoss instead of terran. Zerg was not played in the campaign so few owuld pick them.
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On December 13 2011 04:29 Kresh wrote:You can't balance the game around the level of skill displayed by Bronze players who just bought it last week...or Silver players like me who play 1-2 hours a week
I would argue that the game is more balanced at Bronze/Silver than anywhere else. The better player wins. No matter what strategy a player goes for, its weaknesses are underscored, and can be exploited by a player with solid game understanding.
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On December 13 2011 04:43 K9GM3 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 04:29 Kresh wrote:You can't balance the game around the level of skill displayed by Bronze players who just bought it last week...or Silver players like me who play 1-2 hours a week I would argue that the game is more balanced at Bronze/Silver than anywhere else. The better player wins. No matter what strategy a player goes for, its weaknesses are underscored, and can be exploited by a player with solid game understanding.
You can't balance the game at Bronze (or Silver... or hell, at Diamond), because Bronze players don't have reliable enough mechanics where racial balance becomes the only issue.
That's the exact reason why the game gets balanced around the top-tier players- because you can assess race vs. race problems without worrying about the confounding variables of mechanics.
In Bronze, the better player doesn't always win either... he might screw up the next game against the same person. There's way too much variation. Plus, there's no way of knowing if race played an important part of the win or whether it was because of superior mechanics (or unit composition or something else).
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On December 12 2011 23:58 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 22:34 doko100 wrote:On December 11 2011 19:15 Big J wrote:On December 11 2011 17:28 doko100 wrote:On December 11 2011 16:52 Ownos wrote:
I'm... not sure if people are reading the graphs right. Especially the terran whiners... not sure how you can be pessimistic about your race when there's a big blue line hovering over everything else in any graph with a blue line lol. Euhm, it's not about the lines? well it's also about the lines. The lines show the 3month trend. The bars show the 1month trend. While if makes sense to do so, using one month as unit for the bar is just as arbitrary as using 1week or 3months would be. On December 11 2011 16:24 doko100 wrote:On December 11 2011 16:13 freetgy wrote:On December 11 2011 14:53 K3Nyy wrote:
I really disagree. Terrans especially in the lower leagues have been complaining about TvP lategame for a longgggggggg time. This balance patch and the winrates basically let them justify their whining further.
Some of what they say is justified in my opinion, especially the ease of late game Protoss vs Terran. but it's just very annoying to see whining all over the threads.
this will never change, as long as Terran stays on Bio till lategame. you can't have the advantage in early mid and lategame by staying with essentially the same core composition from the beginning. Obviously splash will kick in on the protoss side more on more and make the life harder for the Bio player. no balance patch will change that. lol, what else is the terran supposed to do? o.O well first off all, Terran wins a lot in the lategame with biocompositions, though I don't have any stats to know how many games really. A lot of it comes down to how many medivacs and ghosts you have in your composition at that time (the high Tier bio units), just like a zerg or Protoss that can max on roach/ling or zealot/stalker really fast, marine/marauder without the big flock of medivacs and the EMP-carpet isn't very efficient. Also 3/3 upgrades are obligatory (which I believe a lot of lower league Terrans have trouble with, as unlike Protoss and Zergs, Terran does not have a superpopular upgrade build right now which would teach people "that's how you do it!") Second of all, if the stats show that the game is balanced (which they don't) and if there is really a "lategame imbalance" (which I haven't seen any stats of), then you should just complain as hard about Terran being "imbalanced" in the early game (there is no other way that the game could be balanced otherwise). Also as low league player it is really easy to play Mech vs Protoss or just go to the strategy section and watch out for that "TvP pure Air"-guide, if you feel like bio isn't good enough lategame. Mech doesn't work vs. protoss in mid-master league+. And you talk about terran upgrades, protoss has chronoboosts so their upgrades will always be faster, there is no point in even trying to argue that a terran could ever be ahead in upgrades. Unless the protoss just decides to not upgrade his units at all, which is his own fault. edit: Also... Mech easy to play? Where did you pick that up? Trying to make Mech work vs. a competent protoss is nigh impossible and pretty much the hardest thing in the game. That is why i wrote mech is an alternative for low leaguers who dont have the apm for MMMVG but also wont face extremly competent opponents. If you are diamond+ and you cant play bio mechanicswise then Im sorry for you, but youshould have considered that your skill wont be as high as your league when you cheesed yourself through platinum-. And yes, low league mech is easy to play as long as you find that siege button.
What the hell is this? I never said that my bio is bad and why would you assume that I cheesed myself into masters league? That's totally the opposite of what is true. My bio play in TvP is pretty decent (good enough for masters at least) and I play Mech in tvt and tvz and please show me a cheesy pure mech build, please.
You just randomly assume stuff or make shit up, I don't know why you are doing this, but you come across as really insecure, you indirectly just discredit the person you are talking to even though you know nothing about him. How are you actually not banned (pretty sure defamation is a bannable offense)? Again, I never said that I have problems in TvP or that I cheesed myself into masters, that's something you made up, for god knows what reason. I was simply pointing out that at the higher levels, Mech in TvP doesn't work, so yeah go ahead and keep praising Mech and how good it is in the lower leagues, but fact is that nobody cares, because once these people get into masters or even diamond mech won't win them a single game anymore. So yeah keep telling people how to play the game in a wrong way, once they get promoted to a higher league I'm sure they'll thank you for it seeing as they will have no experience with bio at all and just lose every single tvp either way.
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On December 13 2011 05:38 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 23:58 Big J wrote:On December 12 2011 22:34 doko100 wrote:On December 11 2011 19:15 Big J wrote:On December 11 2011 17:28 doko100 wrote:On December 11 2011 16:52 Ownos wrote:
I'm... not sure if people are reading the graphs right. Especially the terran whiners... not sure how you can be pessimistic about your race when there's a big blue line hovering over everything else in any graph with a blue line lol. Euhm, it's not about the lines? well it's also about the lines. The lines show the 3month trend. The bars show the 1month trend. While if makes sense to do so, using one month as unit for the bar is just as arbitrary as using 1week or 3months would be. On December 11 2011 16:24 doko100 wrote:On December 11 2011 16:13 freetgy wrote:On December 11 2011 14:53 K3Nyy wrote:
I really disagree. Terrans especially in the lower leagues have been complaining about TvP lategame for a longgggggggg time. This balance patch and the winrates basically let them justify their whining further.
Some of what they say is justified in my opinion, especially the ease of late game Protoss vs Terran. but it's just very annoying to see whining all over the threads.
this will never change, as long as Terran stays on Bio till lategame. you can't have the advantage in early mid and lategame by staying with essentially the same core composition from the beginning. Obviously splash will kick in on the protoss side more on more and make the life harder for the Bio player. no balance patch will change that. lol, what else is the terran supposed to do? o.O well first off all, Terran wins a lot in the lategame with biocompositions, though I don't have any stats to know how many games really. A lot of it comes down to how many medivacs and ghosts you have in your composition at that time (the high Tier bio units), just like a zerg or Protoss that can max on roach/ling or zealot/stalker really fast, marine/marauder without the big flock of medivacs and the EMP-carpet isn't very efficient. Also 3/3 upgrades are obligatory (which I believe a lot of lower league Terrans have trouble with, as unlike Protoss and Zergs, Terran does not have a superpopular upgrade build right now which would teach people "that's how you do it!") Second of all, if the stats show that the game is balanced (which they don't) and if there is really a "lategame imbalance" (which I haven't seen any stats of), then you should just complain as hard about Terran being "imbalanced" in the early game (there is no other way that the game could be balanced otherwise). Also as low league player it is really easy to play Mech vs Protoss or just go to the strategy section and watch out for that "TvP pure Air"-guide, if you feel like bio isn't good enough lategame. Mech doesn't work vs. protoss in mid-master league+. And you talk about terran upgrades, protoss has chronoboosts so their upgrades will always be faster, there is no point in even trying to argue that a terran could ever be ahead in upgrades. Unless the protoss just decides to not upgrade his units at all, which is his own fault. edit: Also... Mech easy to play? Where did you pick that up? Trying to make Mech work vs. a competent protoss is nigh impossible and pretty much the hardest thing in the game. That is why i wrote mech is an alternative for low leaguers who dont have the apm for MMMVG but also wont face extremly competent opponents. If you are diamond+ and you cant play bio mechanicswise then Im sorry for you, but youshould have considered that your skill wont be as high as your league when you cheesed yourself through platinum-. And yes, low league mech is easy to play as long as you find that siege button. What the hell is this? I never said that my bio is bad and why would you assume that I cheesed myself into masters league? That's totally the opposite of what is true. My bio play in TvP is pretty decent (good enough for masters at least) and I play Mech in tvt and tvz and please show me a cheesy pure mech build, please. You just randomly assume stuff or make shit up, I don't know why you are doing this, but you come across as really insecure, you indirectly just discredit the person you are talking to even though you know nothing about him. How are you actually not banned (pretty sure defamation is a bannable offense)? Again, I never said that I have problems in TvP or that I cheesed myself into masters, that's something you made up, for god knows what reason. I was simply pointing out that at the higher levels, Mech in TvP doesn't work, so yeah go ahead and keep praising Mech and how good it is in the lower leagues, but fact is that nobody cares, because once these people get into masters or even diamond mech won't win them a single game anymore. So yeah keep telling people how to play the game in a wrong way, once they get promoted to a higher league I'm sure they'll thank you for it seeing as they will have no experience with bio at all and just lose every single tvp either way.
I said "If your bio is bad and you're diamond+", not that your bio is bad... Your bio is not bad? Good, forget about the rest what is written in that if-sentence! (because that is how conditional sentences work)
I didn't say anything about cheesy pure mech builds, but if you ask: 1base double reactor hellion allin. 1base 1reactor+1tech lab blue flame hellion allin. 1base blueflame/reactored hellion drop.
And I was simply pointing out that I never said you should play Mech on high level. I guess (this is not an accusation, it's what I figuered to be most likely from what I read in your post... it should in no way discredit you or something) you did not read what my original post was answering to:
"lol, what else is the terran supposed to do?" (then go bio)
I stated that part about mech only because people keep on whining around in this thread that in low leagues they don't have the mechanics to play lategame bio. So I said they should just play mech as it will work in their leagues and doesn't require "kiting for the next 20sec of the game while the protoss player goes for a cup of tea" (like some people put it).
I truely belive that Terrans should play bio in TvP as long as no progames has figuered a way to incorporate more mech/air into the compositions (not even saying that this will ever happen, but you never know).
The part about not having any experience with bio so they will always lose is wrong imo as bio is rather easy to play (that's why everyone does it, even in highlevel TvT) once you have generally good mechanics and understanding of Terran. At least this is my experience with it. (while I think pure mech or mixed compositions bio/mech, mech/air need a lot more babysitting and experience - on high level! when you can't just walk to your opponent and siege up. And face counterattacks and flanks and multidrops and warp prisms and flaggshipp rushes etc...)
And I'm sorry if I sounded too offensive towards you, but I was assuming you were just another "TvP is unplayable now"-whiner, so I would like to appologize for that. Clearly your post did not contain such a part!
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On December 13 2011 04:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 04:43 K9GM3 wrote:On December 13 2011 04:29 Kresh wrote:You can't balance the game around the level of skill displayed by Bronze players who just bought it last week...or Silver players like me who play 1-2 hours a week I would argue that the game is more balanced at Bronze/Silver than anywhere else. The better player wins. No matter what strategy a player goes for, its weaknesses are underscored, and can be exploited by a player with solid game understanding. You can't balance the game at Bronze (or Silver... or hell, at Diamond), because Bronze players don't have reliable enough mechanics where racial balance becomes the only issue. That's the exact reason why the game gets balanced around the top-tier players- because you can assess race vs. race problems without worrying about the confounding variables of mechanics. In Bronze, the better player doesn't always win either... he might screw up the next game against the same person. There's way too much variation. Plus, there's no way of knowing if race played an important part of the win or whether it was because of superior mechanics (or unit composition or something else).
The notion that mechanics is a non-issue at top level is totally false. Most people with decent BW experience knows that if that game could be played with perfect mechanics, Terran would be OP and Protoss wouldn't stand a chance (using current maps ofc). The primary argument for balancing at the top is in other words a fallacy.
My guess is Blizzard instead made a conscious decision to primarily balance at top level at the expense of lower levels. This makes sense from a business perspective because progamers are more vocal about game balance and their games garner a lot more attention.
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On December 13 2011 08:36 Blueblister wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 04:50 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 13 2011 04:43 K9GM3 wrote:On December 13 2011 04:29 Kresh wrote:You can't balance the game around the level of skill displayed by Bronze players who just bought it last week...or Silver players like me who play 1-2 hours a week I would argue that the game is more balanced at Bronze/Silver than anywhere else. The better player wins. No matter what strategy a player goes for, its weaknesses are underscored, and can be exploited by a player with solid game understanding. You can't balance the game at Bronze (or Silver... or hell, at Diamond), because Bronze players don't have reliable enough mechanics where racial balance becomes the only issue. That's the exact reason why the game gets balanced around the top-tier players- because you can assess race vs. race problems without worrying about the confounding variables of mechanics. In Bronze, the better player doesn't always win either... he might screw up the next game against the same person. There's way too much variation. Plus, there's no way of knowing if race played an important part of the win or whether it was because of superior mechanics (or unit composition or something else). The notion that mechanics is a non-issue at top level is totally false. Most people with decent BW experience knows that if that game could be played with perfect mechanics, Terran would be OP and Protoss wouldn't stand a chance (using current maps ofc). The primary argument for balancing at the top is in other words a fallacy.
Pro-gamers aren't going to have absolutely perfect mechanics every single game, but the fact that their mechanics are much better than lower-level players makes balancing the races far easier. There's a difference between understanding this fact and taking it too far (to perfection) and claiming that just because players can't micro every unit at the same time perfectly yet, we shouldn't be using the best players as icons for balancing the game.
My guess is Blizzard instead made a conscious decision to primarily balance at top level at the expense of lower levels. This makes sense from a business perspective because progamers are more vocal about game balance and their games garner a lot more attention.
There's definitely a give-and-take there. While that may be true, there are far more lower-level gamers than players who are in GM or play on a pro team, so it would be silly to ignore most of the buyers. It's the fact that you can't properly balance a game when you can't really assess whether a game was lost due to racial imbalance or other variables- and this problem is much easier to solve at the highest levels.
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On December 13 2011 06:57 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 05:38 doko100 wrote:On December 12 2011 23:58 Big J wrote:On December 12 2011 22:34 doko100 wrote:On December 11 2011 19:15 Big J wrote:On December 11 2011 17:28 doko100 wrote:On December 11 2011 16:52 Ownos wrote:
I'm... not sure if people are reading the graphs right. Especially the terran whiners... not sure how you can be pessimistic about your race when there's a big blue line hovering over everything else in any graph with a blue line lol. Euhm, it's not about the lines? well it's also about the lines. The lines show the 3month trend. The bars show the 1month trend. While if makes sense to do so, using one month as unit for the bar is just as arbitrary as using 1week or 3months would be. On December 11 2011 16:24 doko100 wrote:On December 11 2011 16:13 freetgy wrote:On December 11 2011 14:53 K3Nyy wrote:
I really disagree. Terrans especially in the lower leagues have been complaining about TvP lategame for a longgggggggg time. This balance patch and the winrates basically let them justify their whining further.
Some of what they say is justified in my opinion, especially the ease of late game Protoss vs Terran. but it's just very annoying to see whining all over the threads.
this will never change, as long as Terran stays on Bio till lategame. you can't have the advantage in early mid and lategame by staying with essentially the same core composition from the beginning. Obviously splash will kick in on the protoss side more on more and make the life harder for the Bio player. no balance patch will change that. lol, what else is the terran supposed to do? o.O well first off all, Terran wins a lot in the lategame with biocompositions, though I don't have any stats to know how many games really. A lot of it comes down to how many medivacs and ghosts you have in your composition at that time (the high Tier bio units), just like a zerg or Protoss that can max on roach/ling or zealot/stalker really fast, marine/marauder without the big flock of medivacs and the EMP-carpet isn't very efficient. Also 3/3 upgrades are obligatory (which I believe a lot of lower league Terrans have trouble with, as unlike Protoss and Zergs, Terran does not have a superpopular upgrade build right now which would teach people "that's how you do it!") Second of all, if the stats show that the game is balanced (which they don't) and if there is really a "lategame imbalance" (which I haven't seen any stats of), then you should just complain as hard about Terran being "imbalanced" in the early game (there is no other way that the game could be balanced otherwise). Also as low league player it is really easy to play Mech vs Protoss or just go to the strategy section and watch out for that "TvP pure Air"-guide, if you feel like bio isn't good enough lategame. Mech doesn't work vs. protoss in mid-master league+. And you talk about terran upgrades, protoss has chronoboosts so their upgrades will always be faster, there is no point in even trying to argue that a terran could ever be ahead in upgrades. Unless the protoss just decides to not upgrade his units at all, which is his own fault. edit: Also... Mech easy to play? Where did you pick that up? Trying to make Mech work vs. a competent protoss is nigh impossible and pretty much the hardest thing in the game. That is why i wrote mech is an alternative for low leaguers who dont have the apm for MMMVG but also wont face extremly competent opponents. If you are diamond+ and you cant play bio mechanicswise then Im sorry for you, but youshould have considered that your skill wont be as high as your league when you cheesed yourself through platinum-. And yes, low league mech is easy to play as long as you find that siege button. What the hell is this? I never said that my bio is bad and why would you assume that I cheesed myself into masters league? That's totally the opposite of what is true. My bio play in TvP is pretty decent (good enough for masters at least) and I play Mech in tvt and tvz and please show me a cheesy pure mech build, please. You just randomly assume stuff or make shit up, I don't know why you are doing this, but you come across as really insecure, you indirectly just discredit the person you are talking to even though you know nothing about him. How are you actually not banned (pretty sure defamation is a bannable offense)? Again, I never said that I have problems in TvP or that I cheesed myself into masters, that's something you made up, for god knows what reason. I was simply pointing out that at the higher levels, Mech in TvP doesn't work, so yeah go ahead and keep praising Mech and how good it is in the lower leagues, but fact is that nobody cares, because once these people get into masters or even diamond mech won't win them a single game anymore. So yeah keep telling people how to play the game in a wrong way, once they get promoted to a higher league I'm sure they'll thank you for it seeing as they will have no experience with bio at all and just lose every single tvp either way. I said "If your bio is bad and you're diamond+", not that your bio is bad... Your bio is not bad? Good, forget about the rest what is written in that if-sentence! (because that is how conditional sentences work) I didn't say anything about cheesy pure mech builds, but if you ask: 1base double reactor hellion allin. 1base 1reactor+1tech lab blue flame hellion allin. 1base blueflame/reactored hellion drop. And I was simply pointing out that I never said you should play Mech on high level. I guess (this is not an accusation, it's what I figuered to be most likely from what I read in your post... it should in no way discredit you or something) you did not read what my original post was answering to: "lol, what else is the terran supposed to do?" (then go bio) I stated that part about mech only because people keep on whining around in this thread that in low leagues they don't have the mechanics to play lategame bio. So I said they should just play mech as it will work in their leagues and doesn't require "kiting for the next 20sec of the game while the protoss player goes for a cup of tea" (like some people put it). I truely belive that Terrans should play bio in TvP as long as no progames has figuered a way to incorporate more mech/air into the compositions (not even saying that this will ever happen, but you never know). The part about not having any experience with bio so they will always lose is wrong imo as bio is rather easy to play (that's why everyone does it, even in highlevel TvT) once you have generally good mechanics and understanding of Terran. At least this is my experience with it. (while I think pure mech or mixed compositions bio/mech, mech/air need a lot more babysitting and experience - on high level! when you can't just walk to your opponent and siege up. And face counterattacks and flanks and multidrops and warp prisms and flaggshipp rushes etc...) And I'm sorry if I sounded too offensive towards you, but I was assuming you were just another "TvP is unplayable now"-whiner, so I would like to appologize for that. Clearly your post did not contain such a part!
This sounds alot better. Thank you.
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