[Nov] TLPD Race Winrate Graphs

On December 05 2011 19:51 Condor wrote:
Very nice as always, so, looking at the difference between lowest and highest winrate, November 2011 seems to be one of the most balanced months, although PvT was swinging massively to make it happen. But any idea why the number of games is so low?

On December 05 2011 20:07 OpTiKDream wrote:
look at oct 2011 and november 2011 for PvZ. Makes no sense. The % is closer to 50/50 for november compared to oct yet the lines are getting further away. Someone correct this>

56.9% ZvP Oct
53.5% ZvP Nov

correct the lines.

On December 05 2011 20:11 KevinIX wrote:
Why are there so few games? Are there just fewer tournaments now?

You were the Chosen One! You were supposed to destroy the Sith, not join them...Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!

On December 05 2011 20:17 StiX wrote:
Does anyone thinks its funny that in:
PvT Protoss has the better end
ZvT Terran has the better end
ZvP Zerg has the better end
?

On December 05 2011 20:17 StiX wrote:
Does anyone thinks its funny that in:
PvT Protoss has the better end
ZvT Terran has the better end
ZvP Zerg has the better end
?

On December 05 2011 20:17 StiX wrote:
Does anyone thinks its funny that in:
PvT Protoss has the better end
ZvT Terran has the better end
ZvP Zerg has the better end
?

On December 05 2011 20:17 StiX wrote:
Does anyone thinks its funny that in:
PvT Protoss has the better end
ZvT Terran has the better end
ZvP Zerg has the better end
?

On December 05 2011 20:16 red4ce wrote:
So the big question is, how do you balance PvZ without screwing up TvP or vice versa.

On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point.

On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point.

On December 05 2011 20:17 StiX wrote:u.
Does anyone thinks its funny that in:
PvT Protoss has the better end
ZvT Terran has the better end
ZvP Zerg has the better end
?

On December 05 2011 20:30 secretary bird wrote:
They need to reduce bunker build time obviously. This will fix everything. Oh and make Archons better against air and worse against ground.

On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:

I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started.

On December 05 2011 20:36 thezanursic wrote:

How will that fix anything? I think it will just make TvP even worse if the build time gets increased a lot because the first stalker is deadly without a bunker or it will just force a bunker sooner resulting in delaying the 3rd raxx

On December 05 2011 20:37 Silidons wrote:

Overall the game is actually pretty balanced obviously, but to me it's just....lacking substance.

On December 05 2011 20:39 Garm wrote:


How far is Slovenia from Romania anyways?

On December 05 2011 20:36 thezanursic wrote:

How will that fix anything? I think it will just make TvP even worse if the build time gets increased a lot because the first stalker is deadly without a bunker or it will just force a bunker sooner resulting in delaying the 3rd raxx

On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:


Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much.

On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:


Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much.

On December 05 2011 20:51 secretary bird wrote:


1. I wrote reduce not increase.

2. Its a joke because blizzard has some kind of bunker change in 9/10 patches for some reason.

On December 05 2011 20:51 Greenei wrote:


Right, Terran can't stick with MMMGV the entire time. Unfortunately the Factory units are even worse in the lategame: Tanks are countered by pretty much everything in the Toss lategamearsenal and Thors get feedbacked. Or how often do you see pros using mech vP?

Also Ladderterrans below GM above low Diamond have it even harder then the pros imo.

I as a Terran am superhappy, that the TLPD winrates, which everyone seems to care about the most for some reason, are not longer in our favor. Now we can finally cry as much as the toss and maybe we get buffed in return :D

On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:


Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much.

On December 05 2011 21:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

....
People calling terran easy are honestly all retarded. If you dont want us to stay on MMMGV how about you suggest a single T3 unit that doesnt get countered by feedback? Oh you cant? Ok, then STFU.

Terran is a hard race.

Anyway, I think TvP looks pretty OK at the moment... It's even a little bit varied.

Also Ladderterrans below GM above low Diamond have it even harder then the pros imo.

On December 05 2011 21:03 thezanursic wrote:

My hero :DDDDD
Came to save the day!!!

On December 05 2011 21:08 Surili wrote:


:D

Why can't we all just say that we are glad that the game is looking pretty okay right now? If it starts to look like it it protoss favoured in 3 months then we can talk about that.

And why can't we just say that SC2 isn't an easy game and all the races aren't easy?

Glad all the win rates are looking +/-5% to 50% right now.

<------------------------ very happy.

On December 05 2011 21:08 Surili wrote:


:D

Why can't we all just say that we are glad that the game is looking pretty okay right now? If it starts to look like it it protoss favoured in 3 months then we can talk about that.

And why can't we just say that SC2 isn't an easy game and all the races aren't easy?

Glad all the win rates are looking +/-5% to 50% right now.

<------------------------ very happy.

On December 05 2011 21:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

....
People calling terran easy are honestly all retarded. If you dont want us to stay on MMMGV how about you suggest a single T3 unit that doesnt get countered by feedback? Oh you cant? Ok, then STFU.

Terran is a hard race.

Anyway, I think TvP looks pretty OK at the moment... It's even a little bit varied.

On December 05 2011 21:00 thezanursic wrote:

As A terran I'll shout vulgarly at any terran who complains about imbalance if the Win rates don't have atleast a 10% difference for a longer period of time than a month
I think that the best thing to do is leave it as it is and let terrans get better at their ghost use just cuz it's harder to EMP doesn't mean a lot. You can still EMP you just gotta be more precise.

On December 05 2011 21:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

....
People calling terran easy are honestly all retarded. If you dont want us to stay on MMMGV how about you suggest a single T3 unit that doesnt get countered by feedback? Oh you cant? Ok, then STFU.

Terran is a hard race.

Anyway, I think TvP looks pretty OK at the moment... It's even a little bit varied.

On December 05 2011 21:15 Grimss wrote:
Terrans haven't the best winning percentage for the 1rst time in the history of sc2 ! Champagne

On December 05 2011 21:07 Pandemona wrote:
ROFL

Patched work no? Look at PvT, that is fkn insane!!!!
Protos vs Zerg 3% climb for Protos in that aswell! Madness!!

Wowzers, Least TvZ seems even ^_^ 1 balanced match up out of 3 not bad

On December 05 2011 21:17 MandoRelease wrote:


Well, it's not easier nor harder than Protoss or Zerg. What's your point ?
Some say T is easier because some sloppy plays are not punished as heavily with T as it is with Z or P. No need to take it they say the race is overall easier.

On December 05 2011 21:21 secretary bird wrote:


Actually terran is harder to play than Protoss thats a fact.

On December 05 2011 21:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

....
People calling terran easy are honestly all retarded. If you dont want us to stay on MMMGV how about you suggest a single T3 unit that doesnt get countered by feedback? Oh you cant? Ok, then STFU.

Terran is a hard race.

Anyway, I think TvP looks pretty OK at the moment... It's even a little bit varied.

On December 05 2011 20:37 Silidons wrote:

Overall the game is actually pretty balanced obviously, but to me it's just....lacking substance.

On December 05 2011 21:23 Sanchonator wrote:



based on blind bias or ?

On December 05 2011 21:17 MandoRelease wrote:


Well, it's not easier nor harder than Protoss or Zerg. What's your point ?
Some say T is easier because some sloppy plays are not punished as heavily with T as it is with Z or P. No need to take it they say the race is overall easier.

On December 05 2011 21:25 Plansix wrote:
I respect that and understand that terran is hard. I have a less than awesome win rate against them however. It is my worst match up by far and I seem to be able to avoid posting long winded threads about the flaws with my race and why I can't win.

On December 05 2011 21:15 Grimss wrote:
Terrans haven't the best winning percentage for the 1rst time in the history of sc2 ! Champagne

On December 05 2011 21:21 secretary bird wrote:


Actually terran is harder to play than Protoss thats a fact.

On December 05 2011 21:32 iamke55 wrote:

So hard that you can be the best Terran in the world without knowing any upgrade timings past 1/1?

On December 05 2011 21:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

....
People calling terran easy are honestly all retarded. If you dont want us to stay on MMMGV how about you suggest a single T3 unit that doesnt get countered by feedback? Oh you cant? Ok, then STFU.

Terran is a hard race.

Anyway, I think TvP looks pretty OK at the moment... It's even a little bit varied.

On December 05 2011 21:32 iamke55 wrote:

So hard that you can be the best Terran in the world without knowing any upgrade timings past 1/1?

On December 05 2011 21:32 iamke55 wrote:

So hard that you can be the best Terran in the world without knowing any upgrade timings past 1/1?

On December 05 2011 21:28 Quotidian wrote:


a lot of people are saying that terran is somehow easy (and implying that terran is too good across the board). Even you talking about "sloppy plays" is part of that line of thinking. Terran is punished for "sloppy play" just as hard as every other race. I don't even know see what in the game is supposed to make terran more resilient to "sloppy play." Bunkers? Play sloppily and don't pull workers in time - evaporated bunkers. Tanks? Play sloppily and get caught unsieged/in a bad position -- dead tanks/army. Etc.

On December 05 2011 21:15 storywriter wrote:

Terran is by no means an easy race to play (except for mules) but I feel that saying you can't use tier 3 units because of feedback is going a little too far. It's not like archons and HTs don't see any use because of EMP.

I'm still waiting for terrans to start adding in raven+banshee in late game with their excess gas. This combination looks incredibly powerful for a number of reasons. 1. ravens allow sniping of observers. 2. ravens counter both phoenixes and stalkers with PDD. 3. terran already gets ship attack upgrades and they scale super well on banshees. Armour doesn't matter as much thanks to PDD.

While I acknowledge that feedback counters both units, PDD can always be cast pre-emptively, ghosts can take out HTs and as a last resort, banshees can burn energy. In worst case scenario, the feedbacked banshee/raven has most likely prevented a storm. This will of course require immensely difficult micro from the terran but I feel like that's what SC has always been about: beating the metagame by getting better (even if it feels like you have to play better than your opponent).

On December 05 2011 21:41 MandoRelease wrote:


I was more thinking around the lines "have army out of position, repair give you enough time to be okay", "just lost a battle, PF is there to prevent ennemy's surviving units to move forward" or "lose an expansion with 30 workers, float your main CC and spam mules" or even "did not anticipate fast cloaked units, can still survive with scans".
It's not that Terran's mechanics makes you okay all the time, it's just that you can buy time more easily and you can get an expansion up&running more quickly even after just losing one (when Z & P still have to actually wait for the nexus or hatchery to complete).

Like I said, T gets punished, just not as heavily.

On December 05 2011 21:32 iamke55 wrote:

So hard that you can be the best Terran in the world without knowing any upgrade timings past 1/1?

On December 05 2011 21:45 ThePlayer33 wrote:
zerg the strongest race for teh 1st time yaya........

On December 05 2011 21:43 JoeSchmoe wrote:


you do realize that you can feedback PDDs?

On December 05 2011 21:15 storywriter wrote:

Terran is by no means an easy race to play (except for mules) but I feel that saying you can't use tier 3 units because of feedback is going a little too far. It's not like archons and HTs don't see any use because of EMP.

I'm still waiting for terrans to start adding in raven+banshee in late game with their excess gas. This combination looks incredibly powerful for a number of reasons. 1. ravens allow sniping of observers. 2. ravens counter both phoenixes and stalkers with PDD. 3. terran already gets ship attack upgrades and they scale super well on banshees. Armour doesn't matter as much thanks to PDD.

While I acknowledge that feedback counters both units, PDD can always be cast pre-emptively, ghosts can take out HTs and as a last resort, banshees can burn energy. In worst case scenario, the feedbacked banshee/raven has most likely prevented a storm. This will of course require immensely difficult micro from the terran but I feel like that's what SC has always been about: beating the metagame by getting better (even if it feels like you have to play better than your opponent).

On December 05 2011 21:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

....
People calling terran easy are honestly all retarded. If you dont want us to stay on MMMGV how about you suggest a single T3 unit that doesnt get countered by feedback? Oh you cant? Ok, then STFU.

Terran is a hard race.

Anyway, I think TvP looks pretty OK at the moment... It's even a little bit varied.

On December 05 2011 21:45 ThePlayer33 wrote:
zerg the strongest race for teh 1st time yaya........

On December 05 2011 21:56 storywriter wrote:

you realise i never said you couldn't? Seems my point has flown right over your head, so I'll repeat myself. Ghosts counter HTs and archons harder than any other counters in the game barring voidray vs ultralisk etc. I still use HTs and archons. After being asked by countless terrans that protoss should innvoate and involve carriers/mothership in their play, I feel justified in suggesting the use of a unit that mainly uses up gas - a resource terrans have troulbe finding use for in late game.

On December 05 2011 22:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


Yeah. First time they're (baaaaarely) under 50% hahahaha.

Protoss actually balancing out a bit? Finally *-*

Now, if we can only hope that results level off at the 50% mark and don't continue to swap percentages!

It's also too bad that some people consider one race to have a bit of an advantage in one stage of the game, and another race to be stronger in a different stage.

On December 05 2011 20:19 rpgalon wrote:

it's the easiest way to achiev balance, a counter systen

On December 05 2011 22:18 R!! wrote:

If you normally play against terrans at such a high level that they propose carrier usage, you really shouldn't be suggesting anything at all.

On December 05 2011 22:06 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

Feedback counters ravens
Feedback counters PDD
feedback counters banshees

Banshees suck ass vs phoenix
PDD sucks vs phoenix

Banshees vs 3-3-3 protoss? GL.

No, banshees are not the answer. Good early-mid, far too flimsy late.

On December 05 2011 22:05 undyinglight wrote:
Protoss is still hurting against Zerg by quite a bit

On December 05 2011 22:06 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

Feedback counters ravens
Feedback counters PDD
feedback counters banshees

Banshees suck ass vs phoenix
PDD sucks vs phoenix

Banshees vs 3-3-3 protoss? GL.

No, banshees are not the answer. Good early-mid, far too flimsy late.

On December 05 2011 22:05 undyinglight wrote:
Protoss is still hurting against Zerg by quite a bit

On December 05 2011 22:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


I did look at all the graphs, but the difference there didn't surprise me... Terrans aren't able to *just* use two ghosts and win anymore, because of the patch. Terrans are going to need to learn to incorporate a few extra ghosts in their armies, which completely counters the new patch, and then you can go ahead and enjoy the old months' win percentages where you used to stomp us (or, at least, balance out the win percentage at 50-50). It's okay, really it is. TvP is in fluctation because of that patch. There's not nearly enough ghost play, despite the fact that it completely shuts down Protoss, and Terran isn't nearly as gas-heavy as the other races, so it's viable.

On December 05 2011 21:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:

....
People calling terran easy are honestly all retarded. If you dont want us to stay on MMMGV how about you suggest a single T3 unit that doesnt get countered by feedback? Oh you cant? Ok, then STFU.

Terran is a hard race.

Anyway, I think TvP looks pretty OK at the moment... It's even a little bit varied.

On December 05 2011 22:06 Liquid`Jinro wrote:


Feedback counters ravens
Feedback counters PDD
feedback counters banshees

Banshees suck ass vs phoenix
PDD sucks vs phoenix

Banshees vs 3-3-3 protoss? GL.

No, banshees are not the answer. Good early-mid, far too flimsy late.

On December 05 2011 22:29 Ktk wrote:


In addition I'd like to mention that though your banshee raven thing sounds cool in concept (as jinro mentioned it kind of sucks vs HT) but have fun getting enough gas to get ghosts, banshees AND ravens and not die to mass zealot+ht/archon anyways.

Also, despite all the nerfs to Terran, I bet MMM/VG is still easier than going T3 or mech. That's how TvP will be because their units just are built to hard counter terran units.
Post-patch it's either a safe play where you're behind because of chrono boost, or a risk-reward play with a coinflip that could mean auto-loss after.
(1,2,3,4: macro hard and lose to immortal all-in, macro hard and win macro game, tech to ghosts for all-in preparation and likely win, tech to ghosts and lose to macro protoss+colossi)

Though I wouldn't be surprised if new maps with wider areas were to be more beneficial tvp since it's just hard to engage protoss on maps like crossfire... dem ff's are big and immortals are good units lol.

On December 05 2011 22:41 Iatrik wrote:


Never thought of using EMP on your own units?
Or waste your energy otherwise?

BCs or Thors that can't be feedback, are very hard to handle as protoss.
Add some SCVs in the mix and your army is almost unstopable.

I mean. Seriously. I thought pro-gamers know the game and it's shortcuts a little bit better :/

On December 05 2011 22:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


Well to be fair, I'm pretty sure Protosses have straight up died to investing in high templar tech and missing their storms in the same way you mention missing EMPs with your ghosts.

If you invest in tech and it doesn't pay off (especially with spellcasters), then you're already behind. In PvT, one army usually smashes the other, and so the battle will look even more one-sided if you have a smaller army and "useless" spellcasters (because they got picked off or you missed with their spells).

On December 05 2011 22:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


I did look at all the graphs, but the difference there didn't surprise me... Terrans aren't able to *just* use two ghosts and win anymore, because of the patch. Terrans are going to need to learn to incorporate a few extra ghosts in their armies, which completely counters the new patch, and then you can go ahead and enjoy the old months' win percentages where you used to stomp us (or, at least, balance out the win percentage at 50-50). It's okay, really it is. TvP is in slight fluctuation because of that patch. There's not nearly enough (multiple) ghost play, despite the fact that it completely shuts down Protoss, and Terran isn't nearly as gas-heavy as the other races, so it's certainly viable.

On December 05 2011 22:43 Jono7272 wrote:

Impractical work arounds.

On December 05 2011 22:43 Jono7272 wrote:

Impractical work arounds.

On December 05 2011 22:48 Iatrik wrote:
1 EMP at your own BCs? Impractical work around? Seriously? :>
Like you don't use EMPs against Protoss anyway =)

On December 05 2011 22:47 Snowbear wrote:


Even before the patch with 10 ghosts, lategame was hard as hell. Terrans can make 20 ghosts now, and lategame will still be insane.

I know several grandmaster tosses who give me 1 advice: allin me or win before the 15 minute mark, because you will die, unless I fuck up. Some even dare to say that they ALWAYS win in a macrogame vs terran, unless they make a big mistake.

Then I respond with "I don't like to allin" and "I want to play nice long macro games". Then I ask if there is not a way for me to fight them lategame. Their answer is: no, really not, I'm sorry.

I'm still looking for a protoss that can tell me what to build lategame. I tried pure marauder + 10+ ghosts + medivacs and vikings. I tried to mix in marines. I tried to mix in thors. I tried to mix in hellions. I tried to mix in tanks. Every time I fail very hard.

I'm not saying that TvP is imbalanced. I'm just wondering what a sollution can be. I hoped to find one in the MLG Providence replays, but I didn't.

On December 05 2011 23:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


You're referring to the late game Protoss tech-switch as far as Terran being reactionary goes, right? I agree with you, and that does put Terran in a tough spot late game. I think the best solution to that is to find a way to keep tabs on the colossi and templar count (scans?), and do your best to keep your viking and ghost count at the appropriate numbers. Obviously, it's easier said than done, but every race has to constantly be scouting and have proper unit compositions, and the fact that Protoss can no longer have instant-storms with warp-in (they need a decent amount of time to get enough energy) gives Terran a small window of opportunity, and ghosts are always a good unit to have on the field anyway (meaning that your viking count is probably the most important to "worry" about, so keep a closer eye on the number of colossi and match appropriately).
Note that in the early game, Protoss has to react to whatever the Terran does. Terran is the one who can wall off, forcing Protoss to get a quick observer (and yet have enough gateway units out to stop a fast push, *just in case*). There's the possibility of cloaked banshees and blue flame hellion drops as well,.
Also, throughout the mid and late game, keep in mind that Terran is far more mobile (Terran generally doesn't go mech, and Protoss hardly ever goes air), which also makes drop harrass far more effective for Terran and less effective for Protoss (although warp prisms definitely can be useful- don't get me wrong- just generally not as useful as medivac drops). Constant drop harrass and multi-pronged attacks often spread the Protoss army very thin, and the fact that the medivac heals your units often means that Protoss has to overcompensate with the number of units they bring back to clean up quickly.

On December 05 2011 23:29 Lorch wrote:
So pretty much balanced, I feel like TvP will balance itself out, keep in mind that this is the first time P has a higher winrate than T since the removal of the amulett.

On December 05 2011 23:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


I would suggest posting replays then, so we could help you analyze your problems. You may remember famous matches like Thorzain vs. MC in TSL3, the recent Puma vs. Hero matches of Dreamhack and NASL, and even Bomber's general TvP. Obviously, you dont have to go all-in in 10 minutes as Terran. I know, in particular, Bomber often likes to turtle with a fast third in-base OC for extra mules (which seems to be gaining popularity). You may need to think outside the box. Or it may just come down to poor positioning of units or you building the wrong composition against a particular build.

On December 05 2011 22:59 thezanursic wrote:

Don't go down the 1/1/1 route please. We are better.
First that's not true. Can I point out that Hero and Puma are 4:3 and 2:4. Soo yeah what you are saying isn't true. I agree that the lesser players didn't adjust yet, but just looking at Puma you can see it will stabilize in a month and can I point out that ones of the Pumas losses was an 1/1/1 :D

On December 05 2011 23:46 canikizu wrote:
Wow at people suggesting to emp mech own units. So we should EMP raven, banshees, and PDD to not let it got feedbacked? People make it like mech energy doesn't regen or something, or Terran is gonna have infinite amount of ghosts to EMP both army when he's going mech or something. And new flash, EMP actually only takes 100 energy of mech units, just like 100 or Protoss units, not 100% mech units.

On December 05 2011 23:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


You're referring to the late game Protoss tech-switch as far as Terran being reactionary goes, right? I agree with you, and that does put Terran in a tough spot late game. I think the best solution to that is to find a way to keep tabs on the colossi and templar count (scans?), and do your best to keep your viking and ghost count at the appropriate numbers. Obviously, it's easier said than done, but every race has to constantly be scouting and have proper unit compositions, and the fact that Protoss can no longer have instant-storms with warp-in (they need a decent amount of time to get enough energy) gives Terran a small window of opportunity, and ghosts are always a good unit to have on the field anyway (meaning that your viking count is probably the most important to "worry" about, so keep a closer eye on the number of colossi and match appropriately).
Note that in the early game, Protoss has to react to whatever the Terran does. Terran is the one who can wall off, forcing Protoss to get a quick observer (and yet have enough gateway units out to stop a fast push, *just in case*). There's the possibility of cloaked banshees and blue flame hellion drops as well,.
Also, throughout the mid and late game, keep in mind that Terran is far more mobile (Terran generally doesn't go mech, and Protoss hardly ever goes air), which also makes drop harrass far more effective for Terran and less effective for Protoss (although warp prisms definitely can be useful- don't get me wrong- just generally not as useful as medivac drops). Constant drop harrass and multi-pronged attacks often spread the Protoss army very thin, and the fact that the medivac heals your units often means that Protoss has to overcompensate with the number of units they bring back to clean up quickly.

On December 05 2011 23:56 Roxy wrote:
Overall 1% within 50% win rates

TvZ looks comparable. From what I have seen in tournaments, i would have guessed that zerg had the upper hand.

Big adjustment in TvP because of the ghost change. I suspect this will rebound soon. Likely due to a lot of bad players (quote polt prime) that are in tournaments that htey shouldnt have even qualified for.

8 months of zerg dominating protoss continues

On December 05 2011 23:57 Aterons_toss wrote:
Think this is closest to getting T balanced , still don't like PvZ cuz its way to luck based but alas is not the total 42% P that we had last month.
Yey for PvT... to bad a lot of average T are still winning over good tosses see [spoiler]GSL semi NASL final[/spoiler] but it always seems to me that the pro LANs are a lil different then the online tournament in the race dominance sector so i hope we see some more of the good tosses raise and some more of the bad/avg T fall there as well in the next few months.

On December 05 2011 20:16 red4ce wrote:
So the big question is, how do you balance PvZ without screwing up TvP or vice versa.

On December 05 2011 23:56 Roxy wrote:
Overall 1% within 50% win rates

TvZ looks comparable. From what I have seen in tournaments, i would have guessed that zerg had the upper hand.

Big adjustment in TvP because of the ghost change. I suspect this will rebound soon. Likely due to a lot of bad players (quote polt prime) that are in tournaments that htey shouldnt have even qualified for.

8 months of zerg dominating protoss continues

On December 05 2011 23:57 Aterons_toss wrote:
Think this is closest to getting T balanced , still don't like PvZ cuz its way to luck based but alas is not the total 42% P that we had last month.
Yey for PvT... to bad a lot of average T are still winning over good tosses see + Show Spoiler + but it always seems to me that the pro LANs are a lil different then the online tournament in the race dominance sector so i hope we see some more of the good tosses raise and some more of the bad/avg T fall there as well in the next few months.

On December 05 2011 23:56 Roxy wrote:
Overall 1% within 50% win rates

TvZ looks comparable. From what I have seen in tournaments, i would have guessed that zerg had the uppePolr hand.

Big adjustment in TvP because of the ghost change. I suspect this will rebound soon. Likely due to a lot of bad players (quote polt prime) that are in tournaments that htey shouldnt have even qualified for.

8 months of zerg dominating protoss continues

On December 05 2011 23:59 thezanursic wrote:

Bad players are you kidding? You mean not as good. They aren't bronze they are just top 60 not top 30

On December 05 2011 23:59 Catatonic wrote:

Now I could be extreamly wrong an in all likelyhood I am (since im only bronze though I atleast like to believe I have an extensive or atleast very decent knowledge of the game just not the multitasking skills or focus to attain higher lol) but I think what swings the the game in favor of zergs so much are the use of Mutas. On ladder, against friends, and practice partners of varying levels (bronze-med gold) I generally go muta,ling/bling into ultralisks (not gas effecient I know but I feel comfortable going this compo) an I just shut them down with mutas keeping them on 1-2base max until I get ultras out which then just go on a protoss all you can eat buffet binge. The Muta's manuverability and quickness make it easy to demolish mineral lines an tech structures until heavy anti air is invested in which delays the protoss an terren significantly atleast from what iv seen. Though to nerf Muta's would be rather difficult an break zerg's matchup against either race terren or protoss seeing as how its the only truly viable midgame harrass unit since most wall off against lings leaving only drop play an nydas which arent all too viable. Without that harass capability both races would go unchecked an mass up the deathball army to counter what ever zerg is doing every matchup since they'd get it so quickly with the minimal harass. I dont know if im wrong though I can only speak of how it appears to be to myself.

Sorry if thats hard to read, im not the best grammatically and im infamous for run on sentences lol >.< (and a lack of punctuation hence the run ons though >.<) lol

On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:


Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much.

On December 06 2011 00:07 Roxy wrote:



Afraid I dont have a source, but im 99% certain that polt said something along the lines of "the reason there were so many terrans in code s was because terran was easy and they beat better zerg/protoss players"

Can anyone help me source this?

On December 05 2011 19:58 RaNdOmOwNaGe wrote:
Really liking the overall stats, highest being 50.6 and lowest being 49.1 is pretty damn close.
The PvT graph is... not so good, jumped from big terran advantage to big protoss advantage... not very good. 54.2 to 45.8, do not like that very much. was it due to changes? I did not expect it to be like this, actually I guess I did with so many protoss staying in GSL.
ZvT looks pretty good, although zerg is still on the lower end I really think that 52-48 is nice, something like that is acceptable. Nothing really to note in this one... it looks pretty good and I reckon zergs will be winning more as time goes on.
PvZ got slightly better... but I think that this match-up will pretty much work itself out soon. The meta-game is changing and the balance changes didn't really change much.

On December 05 2011 23:58 R!! wrote:

Polt is bad?Really?Okay (or is that a quote from polt?seems unlikely).

On December 05 2011 23:52 Asmodeusz wrote:
Ok... just for the people that think about dry stats pulled from TLPD as of something even remotely connected to balance of the game.
It is not. Those stats say nothing about balance and 95% ppl can't understand it. Here's an example of why it's pretty much worthelss. Screenshot made today:

On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:


Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much.

On December 06 2011 00:12 Sackings wrote:
hopefully PvZ can develop into a stable matchup. right now its either the 2base all in or if the toss doesnt do damage they just get overrun in the late game ;/

On December 06 2011 00:17 ig0tfish wrote:


Sounds just like Terran in TvP.

On December 06 2011 00:08 HypernovA wrote:

Do some people not think before they post?

Please go try mech an win the Gsl with it. Let's see how far you go with it.

On December 06 2011 00:13 bqm wrote:

haha, that one is pretty funny though, anyway we cant say that TLPD stats is correct, Jjakji recently destroyed Oz and Puzzle in code s to his way of winning it.
Puma overall record last 2 weeks against hero is 7-6

we cant say PvT have been favoured protoss yet, despite many factors like Deezer ELO = Nestea hahahaha

and to Jinro saying HT counter T3 terran like BC or thors banshee ravens, then again EMP> HT and protoss, so when you guys having 4000 gas late games while low on mineral, just make some late game air units and they are pretty good since terran will get air attack upgrade anyways for viking, not saying that you guys just go pure banshee raven or something but add something to the mix when you have lots of gas is a good idea, it is still come down to micro war between HT vs ghost anyway..

On December 06 2011 00:19 decaf wrote:
So basically we have a really well balanced game right now. Who else is waiting for HOTS to destroy this?

No. We have balanced win ratios. It's not the same as game balance.

On December 06 2011 00:19 ceaRshaf wrote:


So if the guy you quoted can't win GSL with the current standard play does it mean the strategy is bad?

So what are you exactly trying to say?

On December 06 2011 00:24 HypernovA wrote:

GSL is the highest play standards. It might work against your average ladder player but it won't work against the pros playing at GSL.

And you can't read either since I wrote play with MECH and not bio play.

On December 06 2011 00:24 ceaRshaf wrote:


But it's the closest thing.

On December 06 2011 00:19 decaf wrote:
So basically we have a really well balanced game right now. Who else is waiting for HOTS to destroy this?

On December 06 2011 00:27 Asmodeusz wrote:


It doesn't matter? Ok if you can't understand the fundamental difference i have nothing more to do here.

On December 06 2011 00:19 decaf wrote:
So basically we have a really well balanced game right now. Who else is waiting for HOTS to destroy this?

On December 06 2011 00:30 DrowSwordsman wrote:
The Protoss and Zerg colors for the graph are way too close. I'm red green colorblind and they look nearly identical. Kinda hurts my head.

But as a whole, it's pretty sweet how the balance is. Ridiculous that there's a bunch of Terran whine threads when the hard numbers show the game is balanced. Unless of course balanced means Terran wins 60% of their games.

On December 05 2011 19:48 Spaceneil8 wrote:
Lowest overall Terran win rate ever. Tbh, this leaves me with a little smile on my face.

On December 06 2011 00:30 DrowSwordsman wrote:
The Protoss and Zerg colors for the graph are way too close. I'm red green colorblind and they look nearly identical. Kinda hurts my head.

But as a whole, it's pretty sweet how the balance is. Ridiculous that there's a bunch of Terran whine threads when the hard numbers show the game is balanced. Unless of course balanced means Terran wins 60% of their games.

On December 06 2011 00:31 Jono7272 wrote:
There's a colour blind version..

On December 06 2011 00:33 thezanursic wrote:

I must be blind, but I'm not seeing nearly as many Terran whine posts as there were Z/Ps last months

On December 06 2011 00:31 WinteRR wrote:
T 55% -> 45%. They went and broke TvP. Great.
.