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[G] TvZ Turrets - The best muta deterrence

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-22 16:23:25
October 19 2011 14:04 GMT
#1
Hey guys its me again. A while back I wrote a guide about how to increase the effectiveness of helion roasting usage (which I will be updating with more tips soon when i have the time)

now i would like to bring you a simple guide into a deterrence against mutas

now I've actually used the search function to look for turret guides / discussions and most of them are pretty outdated

so before anyone goes: "wow dude really we all know that you need to get turrets"
actually read before you set your mindsets to "criticize" mode

It takes a fair bit of time to actually write up and prepare a guide nicely, so I strongly urge that you guys will do me a small ounce of respect and actually read it through before you set your fingers to "flame on"
Intro
+ Show Spoiler +


for those of you watching high level plays like in the GSL, I'm sure you guys have seen how devastating the effect mutas can have on your base when you poop out that single thor only to have it magicbox-ed and killed
or when you go marine tank with 1 or 2 turrents but the muta ball is just too big and so the harassment tends to keep you locked in your base while zerg takes map control

WELL NO MORE I SAY

its time to understand why more than 2 turrets can save you hundreds of minerals and possibly push zerg into another unit composition



first off a very important upgrade:

+ Show Spoiler +

HI-Sec Auto Tracking: Gives + 1 range to turret and planetary range

[image loading]

this upgrade is game changing in your deterrence against mutas. where before mutas were barely out of reach of your second turret, they will most likely be taking a few more shots than they should, and of course they would be taking oncoming fire slightly earlier than they'd expect


The Problem
+ Show Spoiler +
Now you might be thinking, yeah 2 turrents on either side of the mineral line should be enough to stop mutas

really? do you really believe they wont hit around 15-20 mutas and just blow up that turret and move on to your workers next?

how many times have you had mutas:
1. just fly in, take out your turrets and a few SCVs,
2. fly off, you rebuild,
and then they fly back in again and steps one and 2 are repeated over and over

effectively you already losing minerals and workers leading to a worse economy if you had built more turrets


Deterrence
+ Show Spoiler +
Now when I say deterrence, I mean when they make mutas, they are going to be just as useless as lings to a walled off base.

and heres how you are going to achieve it:
You're not going to build, 1 turret, not 2, but 3 and maybe even 4 turrets by your mineral line/production facilities


Turret Placement

+ Show Spoiler +

Below, on Xelnaga Caverns you will see how these 3 turrets will not only do a large amount of dmg to mutas, but it might also cause a hesitant reaction in the zerg player, the question for them being, "how much dmg do i wanna take to make my mutas cost effective"

this amount of turrets will also allow a sufficient delay time for reinforcements to come, generally, once they are done with the turrets and want to work on the workers, my reinforcements would arrive just in time to shoo them off
[image loading]

on the same map, but at the expansion mineral line
these 3 turrets deter any form of muta harass that might come your way. I place all the turrets on one side because I know that the other side that mutas usually fly in from after destroying my turrets in the main will be well defended
[image loading]

This is how i protect my addons and important upgrade buildings. These 4 turrets ensure that mutas wont fly in and pick off emerging siege tanks, armories/ebays (while upgrading), depots, and of course addons

as you can see, my siege tank is warmly nuzzled in there without a care in the world
[image loading]

on maps where there is only 1 point of entry for mutas to enter your main for harass, a prime example being Shakuras Plateau, you can effective defend your whole main from any muta harass as follows:

[image loading]
of course you can build the turrets a bit further out if you want more space for your buildings but either way the end result is: you have effectively blocked off ANY possible destruction of tech labs, upgrade structures, depots or SCVs with just 400 minerals




The Argument
+ Show Spoiler +

now before you go: "u mad bro? I need those minerals for marines"

let me ask, how much minerals have you lost having your tech labs, SCVs, turrets, supply depots and those small groups of marines next to that 1 turret you thought would hold off against those mutas a few hundred?

having your techlabs or reactors destroyed which seriously hinder you unit count or even supply depots destroyed which could possibly lead to a supply block at critical moments, this is the price you pay when you make only 1 or 2 turrets



The Logic

+ Show Spoiler +

you know yourself that 1 turret and 8 marines wont hold off 15 mutas, losing that alone is gonna cost you 500 minerals, and then you just add whatever else the mutas destroy to that list

why invest 200 minerals into 2 turrets when you are going to lose it to a big murder of mutas? Just invest 400 minerals immediately just one time, and have complete deterrence


heres a good example of what happened when i built only 2 turrets to protect my addons
[image loading]

and heres how safe I will be after investing 400 minerals
[image loading]


effectively, the 400 minerals are a long term and a worth it investment
I cannot stress enough how just 400 minerals will save you lots of time having to rebuild techlabs, units, depots, and reactors (oh god dont even get me started on how long it feels to rebuild one)




What will be achieved

+ Show Spoiler +


1. mutas will not destroy your turrets repeatedly saving you minerals on rebuilding them and lost SCVs
2. you can save the addson for important unit structures like your factories or reactor-ed barracks/starports
3. a slight possibility that zerg will go into a different unit composition
4. it brings you the knowledge of security, you can push out of your base knowing that you wont have to turn around your hold army




important to know


+ Show Spoiler +
you aren't going to immediately just drop down 4 turrets just for the sake of it, scout out the spire first, scan it.

first off understand what unit composition hes going for

if its muta ling bane then yes, most likely hes going to be pretty muta heavy and you might wanna get more turrets

if he however is going for maybe just 6-8 mutas for light harassment, 2 turrets do just fine

secondly, you want to gradually build up the turrets. by gradually i mean you can do it one at a time, or you can build 1 and have the SCV building it Q up the next one, but remember to Q another as you go

you don't ever wanna send 4 SCVs at a time that's just, a waste of mining time and not to mention a waste of immediate minerals (key word immediate)

also another important thing, to maintain a healthy unit production and defense, make sure you have already expanded and you have kept up with your worker count

also the turret range upgrade is extremely important,
do not bother making more than 2 turrets if youre not going to get this upgrade


this is by no means a form of deterrence off 1 base




Building Armor Upgrade
+ Show Spoiler +

props to Antisocialmunky for the numbers

Mutas are:
9(+1.000) first hit
3(+0.333) first bounce
1(+0.111) second bounce

+3 Mutas are:
12
4
1

+2 building armor makes that:
10
2
0.5.

Or with just +1 on the standard timing:
8
1
0.5

This applies to depots and add-ons as well.

So vs mutas, with +2 building armor reduces their damage by 4.5 out of a max of 17 damage or around 25% at +3 or 33% of 15 damage at +1.

personally I've never had a reason to get building armor but I guess you can get it if you opponent is one of those "diehard must kill something with these mutas" kind of people

these things are may seem really basic, and you can choose to dismiss what I've written down immediately

but remember that sometimes the basics are the most important things


Replay
+ Show Spoiler +
here's a replay on how powerful of an effect turrets have against a flock of 30 mutas:
http://www.mediafire.com/?cx11cwu44jslzde

- around the 13min mark his mutas fly into my base and achieves absolutely no dmg at all except killing one SCV. he loses 3-4 mutas instead
- at 23:50 mark, he flys 30 mutas into my main, with 3 turrets guarding my production structures
- literally in seconds, 1 muta goes down, and shortly after 2 more before all 3 turrets die
- by that time my reinforcing units have already arrived to deal with the mutas

although he has terribly muta control, the key point is to note the amount of dmg he takes with just 3 turrets with +1 range at the 23:50 mark, compared to what I've lost

Some Extra Stuff
+ Show Spoiler +

I will be doing a short update on my helion harass tips guide
you can find it here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=233188

I will also be writing up a new TvZ guide when I have the time which will incorporate this kind of heavy turret defense while being able to heavily produce units, so look forward to that in the next couple of days



I guess that's pretty much it, discuss and let me know what you think

I welcome all criticism as long as it remains constructive


Please read this following bit carefully

a lot of people seem to be overlooking some of the stuff written so I'll add it here again:

1. No you do not blindly make 4 turrets, as mentioned in the *important to know section*, you should scout out timing of the spire + the unit composition your enemy is going for before you decide how many turrets to build, but usually 2 is the normal amount for light muta harassment (6-8 mutas)
2. you do not want to make as many turrets as I've mentioned if you're going for a timing push
3. neither do you want to make as many turrets if you do not have the resources for it, check the resources on the pictures to see how much minerals I have as well as my army size

Stuff I should have mentioned

these are somethings that i forgot to mention and I apologize but here they are:

1. Once again, this strategy is NOT for someone doing a timing push, especially if youre going marine tank
2. this build doesnt not rely on, but it does work well with heavy mech builds that include 1 or 2 thors
3. DO NO ATTEMPT to build that many turrets if you dont have the income for it (obviously I do which is why i have that many turrets)
4. this kind of defense works very well with mech style play, but that doesnt mean marine tank doesnt work well with it either

but note that if you do go marine tank, then you are most likely going for a timing push and if thats the case you do not want to make that many turrets as stated in point #1

Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
October 19 2011 14:11 GMT
#2
theres currently a problem with the image uploads so I'll try to get it up asap
sdR
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany11 Posts
October 19 2011 14:12 GMT
#3
the pictures are not loading for me! so my question is: did you include the "L" shape of placing 2 turrets, where both can shoot, but only one is going to be hit by the mutas?
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-19 14:15:57
October 19 2011 14:12 GMT
#4
Maybe point out some good examples of heavy/successful turret use? It seems like none of the images appear, and your guide is preettty rough on the edges. It also seems like it does not do much other than say:

"Look bro, I know you are mad, but make more turrets though because 1-2 gets killed"

I dunno, I guess that's useful advice. It might be more effective to just point out that players should utilize turrets a little more if the muta ball is very large. To that end I think any Terran should just watch a bunch of Mvp's TvZ matches in which his positioning of marines and turrets around his base totally negates the muta investment/harass. But even there, Mvp is not solely relying on heavier turret use. He's making it work by brilliantly scattering units until he is ready to gather up and push out. I don't think Mvp would simplify the argument about how to combat mutas to "just make more turrets bro, and get the upgrade"
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
October 19 2011 14:17 GMT
#5
hey guys sorry im trying to fix the images as we speak so hang tight
Waah
Profile Joined February 2011
United States120 Posts
October 19 2011 14:23 GMT
#6
Sounds about right.

Still, I feel very secure with only one turret at each mineral line when the spire is just out. Adding on more than two is useful advice after the spire has been around for a while, though, justified by the fact that 400 minerals isn't a huge investment later on in the game.

Any thoughts about the building armor upgrade? sdR's post makes it less significant of an upgrade (since muta attacks won't bounce to the second turret anyway), but I think it has a place in this thread.

P.S. - Use imgur for the images, they usually work fine for me.
Darkwinja
Profile Joined February 2011
8 Posts
October 19 2011 14:26 GMT
#7
What you dont realize is that turrets means less money at different times of the game. It's an overreaction, you lose possible timings etc by going straight to 4 turrets. Turrets should scale depending on how spread out you are and scouting. Marines and medivacs with upgrades and a few turrets is usuaaly more than enough. if it gets overwhelming you mix in one thor with your turrets and expos.
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-19 14:33:58
October 19 2011 14:29 GMT
#8
+2 armor basically negates the third bounce and heavily reduces damage from the first bounce and initial attack.

Also, you're never going to have enough minerals in SCII to spam turrets everywhere because marines are so necessary. I mean, in SC, late game Terran could just have walls and walls of turrets when they switched to mech.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
Thezzy
Profile Joined October 2010
Netherlands2117 Posts
October 19 2011 14:34 GMT
#9
Turrets have one problem, even in numbers and that is being static defense.
You could protect your mineral line with 5 turrets you slowly built up over time (with building armor and hi-sec) but that Factory or Armory over there only has 1 or no turrets protecting it.
You cannot defend your entire base and at best you can move the Mutas away from the mineral line.

Still, I am intrigued when it comes to mineral line defense, I'll see how adding more turrets affects mutas but they will always be able to find something vulnerable to pick off.

Generally speaking though (emphasis on generally) if Zerg commits to a huge amount of mutas, you should be able to move up to one of his bases and just kill it off and force the mutas back.
More mutas mean less lings and banelings.
Playing Terran is like flying down a MULE drop in a marine suit, firing a Gauss Rifle
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
October 19 2011 14:35 GMT
#10
You'd almost be better off building +1/+2 armor vikings for turtling since that will beat an even number of muta.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-19 14:42:48
October 19 2011 14:36 GMT
#11
ok the images are now uploaded

@Waah:

i've never actually gotten to the point where i needed to get the armor because usually the mutas come in and when they see 4 turrets they reaction my opponent gets (or how i think he gets anyway) is something like: "woah wtf"

of if they even try to break a couple of turrets "ok screw this"

@Antisocialmunky:

wow I never knew that the armor upgrade would negate the bounce, I will try getting it sometime if my opponent decides that he like to suicide tons of mutas cost in-efficiently

and I would have to disagree with your 2nd statement, obviously I have enough minerals to guard my base, and at the same time produce 3 siege tanks at a go and in the screenshot im sure you can see I have another 600 minerals banked up and in some over a thousand

now the reason why i have so much resources is because i have about 3-4 orbitals running which ensures that I will always be able to produce steadily

as for upgrades, i tend to do vehicle weapons, i nearly never bother with air upgrade, maybe occasionally when im losing into anti-air count ill get some weapon upgrades but other than that, i mainly tend to go heavy mech upgrades
@ darkwinja

as i mentioned in the post you wanna gradually build up the defense and not do it immediately
immediately being: sending 4 SCVs at one go and building them

also yeah marines and medivacs have their worth in minerals too, do you ever wanna move out of your base? and how many marines are you willing to leave in you base to defend a ball of say 20 mutas?

8? which will get destroyed easily?

or 16? which means your force moving out has less marines in it

not to mention marines defending against mutas will lead to a lot of forced stims,
Waah
Profile Joined February 2011
United States120 Posts
October 19 2011 14:41 GMT
#12
On October 19 2011 23:35 Antisocialmunky wrote:
You'd almost be better off building +1/+2 armor vikings for turtling since that will beat an even number of muta.

For turtling, wouldn't attack upgraded thors with marine support be even better? Armor upgraded vikings seem so wacky to me. Not that I don't see why one would do it, but rather because it's a big investment and there's no real use to benefit from those upgrades after the mutas are dead (unless there's some crazy +2 armor battlecruiser transition, haha)
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-19 14:46:10
October 19 2011 14:41 GMT
#13
Mutas are:
9(+1.000)
3(+0.333)
1(+0.111)

+3 Mutas are:
12
4
1

+2 building armor makes that:
10
2
0.5.

Or with just +1 on the standard timing:
8
1
.05

Applies to depots and add-ons as well.

So vs mutas, +2 building armor reduces by 4.5 damage out of a max of 17 damage or around 25% at +3 or 33% of 15 damage at +1.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
Thraundil
Profile Joined August 2010
Denmark278 Posts
October 19 2011 14:44 GMT
#14
Hey mate. As a mid/high master zerg player (and ZvT definately being my strongest matchup, maybe high master) here's my few cents on your argumentation.

Does MASS turrets deter me when I poke in with my first 7-8 mutalisks? Yes, yes it does. In most maps, something like 4 turrets in and around the mineral line and another 4 turrets spread amongst your production facilities would be enough to make me think twice. But then you also need those 4 turrets at your natural expo, and probably one or two at your front too to keep me from sniping rallied units when you are moved out. Easily 12 turrets. That you say is basically worth it to make. Blindly. 1200 minerals + the appropriate mining time loss, for 8 mutalisks. Sure, those 8 mutas wont do squat. Maybe the 4-5 mutas I had been training whilst flying towards your base wont do squat either. Except help me ward off medivac drops, snipe lone tanks etc.

So for investing say 1200/1200 in mutalisks tech - gas that I have in the midgame if this was my tech of choice - gets you to spend equally much mineral. That is 24 marines you dont have. That is a lot of pushing power that I just denied to you / a very delayed push.

Am i saying mass turret defense is bad? Absolutely not. But its bad to just toss up tons of turrets at the 11 minute mark because mutas "might be in masses later in the game".

I would suggest you alter your strategic advice into this. Start off with your normal turret defense; one, maybe 2 turrets in / around the mineral line, and 1 or 2 around the production, too. When the first couple of mutas come, this effectively means you are safe - for now. Then you push out, to either deal damage or take a third behind it or whatever. By doing the push you force units, which limit the mutalisk count. After the push is done, or during the push if you have the multitasking for it, you can now evaluate. Do I need more turrets? Did I see a shit ton of banelings, or infestors, or did I maybe even drop his main and see double evo + a hive on the way? If this is the case, you probably dont need those extra turrets. If you see still lair, and many pure lings with maybe only +1 armor, you know to imidiately upgrade your turret count to double. And even then, i would probably still put a thor.

Things to watch; Dont stack turrets. Muta splash will kill them faster.
Dont place turrets such that at any time, only one turret can hit mutas. Always make sure that if the zerg can hit your turrets, at least two turrets will be hitting back.


Because honestly, if I am going mutalisk heavy, I do not care if I see super many turrets. I know that every turret is 2 marines you wont have when pushing, and once I have the mutalisk count to oneshot turrets it no longer matters to me how many turrets there are; the only thing you acheive at this point is to have turrets buy time for your marines to arrive. And while this might be awesome sauce, its still a huge loss compared to how little I will lose at this amount of mutas.


To sum up; yes, many terrans could win alot more if they were smarter with turrets. Smarter being "keep up with the pace of the game", rather than "place turrets at 11 min mark and then think this will solve everything for the entire game". Smarter NOT being "down payment of 2k mineral at 11 min mark to prepare for his 15 min mark mutalisk count". As with all mass unit strategies, the simplest counter is probably "dont let him get there". Of course its not that simple, but yeah. i hope this whole post makes sense, it does in my head but im not too sure if it does on screen; long day in the lab. Which, incidentally, is still not over. Back to measuring.
Hivemind! Just like IRL...
Logick
Profile Joined October 2010
Singapore46 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-19 14:48:50
October 19 2011 14:45 GMT
#15
@ waah

indeed you are right, i use upgrade thors into my army composition and a slight form of defense before i move out

a single lvl 3 weapons thor brings an un-upgraded muta to 48 hp in 1 volley

@antisocialmunky

those stats are very nice to know if you dont mind, I'll add that to the guide

@thraundil

i get you point good sir

but as I've stated in the guide, under the important to know section, i mention to scout out the spire and the unit composition before making that amount of turrets
ElvisTek
Profile Joined August 2011
Venezuela169 Posts
October 19 2011 14:46 GMT
#16
This is awesome... I'll try it.. sometimes when i see that the muta harass is so effective, there is nothing else to do
Yep.. I'm noob :) and happy to be one!
Akylol
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany9 Posts
October 19 2011 14:47 GMT
#17
Might be an interesting Thought but it seems to me that 400 minerals is a bit too overreacted.
Due to the fact that late game Larva mechanics are faster in producing i would rather spend my minerals on production facilities. With 1000 on my bank i could build like 2-3 rax or 2 rax and a fact or something that might be better to be aggressive while having some marines produced and rallied up in my base.
The upgrade does not seem that necessary for me because i think will be never a game where my base is totally safe and mutas still can come in and harass somehow.

Most of the times 1-3 Turrets and the support of Marines or a Thor to get time to pull marines is enough.
Gyro_SC2
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada540 Posts
October 19 2011 14:51 GMT
#18
4turret+range upgrade stop how many muta ?
Antisocialmunky
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States5912 Posts
October 19 2011 14:52 GMT
#19
On October 19 2011 23:41 Waah wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 19 2011 23:35 Antisocialmunky wrote:
You'd almost be better off building +1/+2 armor vikings for turtling since that will beat an even number of muta.

For turtling, wouldn't attack upgraded thors with marine support be even better? Armor upgraded vikings seem so wacky to me. Not that I don't see why one would do it, but rather because it's a big investment and there's no real use to benefit from those upgrades after the mutas are dead (unless there's some crazy +2 armor battlecruiser transition, haha)


It is actually quite wacky, but it is one of those strange facts that are basically useless right now. Up armor vikings actually rape Mutas but no one goes for air ups or vikings because they cost so much gas.

It is Terran's most mobile muta counter but pretty much impractical. Who knows, maybe there will be some sort of ridiculous SCII Fantasy build that uses them one day.
[゚n゚] SSSSssssssSSsss ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Marine/Raven Guide:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=163605
ElvisTek
Profile Joined August 2011
Venezuela169 Posts
October 19 2011 14:53 GMT
#20
And it is not a good idea to add a bunker in the mineral line with marines besides turrets? .. maybe?
Yep.. I'm noob :) and happy to be one!
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