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@coffee
normally with 2 turrets and no range upgrade, this would be a problem
however, with 4 turrets + ranged upgrade, not only are you taking fire earlier (because of the range increase) you're also taking more fire from more turrets
also as mentioned, by the time you take out 2 turrets, you would taken so much dmg maybe even losing a muta or 2, but also reinforcements would have arrived by then, and since i tend to favor mech heavy builds, my thor would probably have shot of a volley if i see you attempting to enter the base
what im trying to say is, by the time you even try to get into my base, you would have taken so much dmg that it would be cost-ineffective to have even attempted it in the first place
losing a muta that costs a 100 minerals as well as a 100 gas to take out a 100 mineral turret only is in no way a good trade
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100/100 for hi-sec tracking and only takes 80s to complete.
150/150 for building armor but takes 140s.
Infantry weapons/armor upgrades take 160s for +1, 190s for +2, 220s for +3.
Hi-sec seems like a more solid choice as you would only delay one of your upgrades for 80s. If you do your base setup right, you could have all your facilities covered by at least one turret. Also, if you put your facilities in a line rather than going for a simcity style box, you'll have less sides to worry about covering.
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so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;;
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i would rather upgrade my bio without pause  i just leave like 10 marines and 1 medivac in main + 2-3 turrets and its fine
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I agree with scaling your turret numbers as you expand more and relative to their muta commitment and also sure get the hi-sec early if your going mech.
However I noticed that your gases are typically only partially covered in your pictures. Particularly when going mech you would want to have an emphasis on protecting your gases so maybe you should shift your turrets towards your gases. I have seen a fair number of korean terrans putting one or two turrets close to their gases, particularly when the gases are next to each other.
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On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;;
Yes, you maybe not noticed but like 90% of terrans are building just few turrets and always losing their stuff over and over again.
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On October 20 2011 01:38 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;; Yes, you maybe not noticed but like 90% of terrans are building just few turrets and always losing their stuff over and over again.
and its a good exchange for terran because zerg losing some muta
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There are quite a few fallacies in OP post:
1) The real cost of building 4 turrets instead of 2, is not 200. Its much higher, because of the oppurtunity cost of the turrets + opp cost of scv not mining.
2) Also that turret range upgrade is pretty terrible unless you go into late game as you need them for infantry, unless you want to build 3 ebays which just delays everything a lot. If you go mech and you know that the zerg will go muta heavy, sure getting that upgrade might be benefical.
3) So 2 turrets ´can hold back, like 7 mutas, but not 10+. But why sohuld you exactly build 4? Then you just loses if the zerg has 15+ mutas? THen you prob need. 6. But then you loses if the zerg has 20+... And we can continue this. Bottom line is that you as a terran cant predict how many mutas the zerg will have at time x, and investing too much in immobile infastructure means that you cant move out, as your army is too small. Yes, some times 4 will be the magical number, but other times it wont.
4) OP doesn't understand the main use behind the use of turrets: They are not meant to absolutely deny any amount of mutalisk. They are just meant to win your time untill your marin army gets back into position. I assume next your next question will be: how you move out of your base as a terran player, and this is the reason why MMA has been so succesfull with his drop play, because this forces the mutas to get oop, allowing the terran player to attack with tank marine.
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Watch MVP vs Zerg. His muta defense is the best.
Pro Terrans certainly make thte right number of turrets. It's only problematic when someone like Idra gets 30 mutas and you can't beat that with turrets and reinforcing marines. I.e he still has map control
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On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;;
its more than just that, it discusses why you should safely do so and talks about the pros and cons
I guess you could say that the overall gist is as what you mentioned but then again if i had just posted "get more turrets = win" that wouldnt really get my point across
@hlder
as for you good sir, Im pretty sure you did not read everything through but rather just skimmed through and looked for stuff to disagree upon
1. the opportunity cost for an ONE SCV mining is really such a big deal to you? if that is the case i assume that you dont scout at all during the early game because your worker wouldnt be mining?
3. this is why i assume you didnt read at all, because if u did read carefully you and some of the previous posts, you would know that 4 turrets vs 15 mutas, even if all the turrets fall, the amount of dead mutas as opposed to destroyed turrets that cost no guess is not even a good trade at all for the zerg player
not to mention that you should have some reinforcements to come assist the and deal with the mutas, so essentially the zerg player has lost mutas, taken heavy dmg and only killed 4 turrets ( assuming hes stupid enough to send 15 mutas into 4 turrets
4. i guess you disagree with my guide which is fine, but do not try to make the point that i do not understand the use of turrets, but rather you lack the understanding of the my guide
what i can say is this, try reading a few posts next time and actually read through the whole guide thoroughly before you go into criticize mode ( which i predicted too that someone would)
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Yes yes, clearly if they're ravaging your base it means you should have built more turrets. It doesn't mean you should make a ton regardless. If you're not going to move out, you should attempt to minimize turrets and use marines to defend. Also, when you're pushing, you try to push with so expediency so that the mutas can't ravage your base because they are needed for defense.
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I do this all the time...it's very good...more T players should do it but the key thing is only do this after three orbitals. Well, that is the rule of thumb i made - only start a turret ring like this in TvZ when getting on three orbitals.
And mid-late game yeah...if you are scanning/scouting that they are continuing mass muta ball play...making a fuck ton of missile turrets can win you so many games, otherwise you will be backstabbed till you die...
I dunno about writing a guide on "building turrets though." And from the pics, you can set up turret rings much more nearly and efficiently than in the pics i saw.
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On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;;
I could not tell you.
I thought it was something about get +1 range and instead of spamming CCs, you spam turrets.
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Obviously just upgrade missile turret splash.
I've been doing this a ton recently whenever Z goes for heavy heavy muta counts. I think this guide is useful though for players who are too afraid to build "too much static defense", and then are crushed by it. 20 mutas can take out a single turret pretty quickly, especially if the T player doesn't react and mass repair it.
This guide is more like a "when you know your opponent is making a ton of mutas, it's OK to build more turrets so you don't just lose all your production".
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On October 20 2011 02:24 Cycle wrote:
Obviously just upgrade missile turret splash.
I've been doing this a ton recently whenever Z goes for heavy heavy muta counts. I think this guide is useful though for players who are too afraid to build "too much static defense", and then are crushed by it. 20 mutas can take out a single turret pretty quickly, especially if the T player doesn't react and mass repair it.
This guide is more like a "when you know your opponent is making a ton of mutas, it's OK to build more turrets so you don't just lose all your production".
wat
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On October 20 2011 02:24 Cycle wrote:
Obviously just upgrade missile turret splash.
I've been doing this a ton recently whenever Z goes for heavy heavy muta counts. I think this guide is useful though for players who are too afraid to build "too much static defense", and then are crushed by it. 20 mutas can take out a single turret pretty quickly, especially if the T player doesn't react and mass repair it.
This guide is more like a "when you know your opponent is making a ton of mutas, it's OK to build more turrets so you don't just lose all your production".
turrets have a splash upgrade? man thats hipster
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On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;;
Not only that, but he's also negating getting upgrades. We all know how strong 3/3 marines are, but if you're using your engineering bay to crank out more, better turrets, the zerg is going to get ahead on upgrades which is going to cause problems much later in the game. There's just no cost analysis going on in this "guide".
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On October 20 2011 02:30 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:24 Cycle wrote:
Obviously just upgrade missile turret splash.
I've been doing this a ton recently whenever Z goes for heavy heavy muta counts. I think this guide is useful though for players who are too afraid to build "too much static defense", and then are crushed by it. 20 mutas can take out a single turret pretty quickly, especially if the T player doesn't react and mass repair it.
This guide is more like a "when you know your opponent is making a ton of mutas, it's OK to build more turrets so you don't just lose all your production". turrets have a splash upgrade? man thats hipster
Must be referring to the campaign upgrade?
As for dealing with Mutas, the turrets are static, the amount you need to defend everything equally with the power of 2+ turrets will reduce the marine count too much.
I'd rather be aggressive and force Zerg to the use the Mutas where I'm pushing or doing a drop.
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It was the same problem back in BW when Z went 2 hatch muta, sure a lot of turrets hold them back for a while but the best defense is to be aggressive and not let the mutas roam around in your base no? FlaSh "invented" his marinepush to make minimal amounts of turrets and keep the mutas out on the map instead of his base. Maybe something like that will happen in sc2?
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On October 20 2011 02:59 Pulimuli wrote:
It was the same problem back in BW when Z went 2 hatch muta, sure a lot of turrets hold them back for a while but the best defense is to be aggressive and not let the mutas roam around in your base no? FlaSh "invented" his marinepush to make minimal amounts of turrets and keep the mutas out on the map instead of his base. Maybe something like that will happen in sc2?
i think bomber already did this vs idra on metalopolis 8 rax reactor marines rally to the middle and muta had to fight while bomber took 3rd 4th bases
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EPT
