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On October 20 2011 03:05 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:59 Pulimuli wrote:
It was the same problem back in BW when Z went 2 hatch muta, sure a lot of turrets hold them back for a while but the best defense is to be aggressive and not let the mutas roam around in your base no? FlaSh "invented" his marinepush to make minimal amounts of turrets and keep the mutas out on the map instead of his base. Maybe something like that will happen in sc2? i think bomber already did this vs idra on metalopolis 8 rax reactor marines rally to the middle and muta had to fight while bomber took 3rd 4th bases
Yes, this is very common for tank/marine or bio play. Mech always relies on a larger turret count to defend mutas even when thors are out. It's not unusual to see mech players spam turrets.
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Really good read, gonna try it out, I hate mutas
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On October 20 2011 03:05 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:59 Pulimuli wrote:
It was the same problem back in BW when Z went 2 hatch muta, sure a lot of turrets hold them back for a while but the best defense is to be aggressive and not let the mutas roam around in your base no? FlaSh "invented" his marinepush to make minimal amounts of turrets and keep the mutas out on the map instead of his base. Maybe something like that will happen in sc2? i think bomber already did this vs idra on metalopolis 8 rax reactor marines rally to the middle and muta had to fight while bomber took 3rd 4th bases
I was advocating map position as counter for mutas for a long time.
However, zerg is much better at projecting power early on with the threat of banelings or just mass mass speedlings like stephano. So you have to go at least 4 rax worth of CS/Stim marines to push out around the muta timing.
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I don't usually need more then 2 turrets for 15 mutas. Unless I don't see it and miss the mass repair window. Also when you mass repair you need to keep clicking, don't just click once.
I don't see any pros building this many turrets. Late game I sometimes put 4 - 6 around my production facilities, especially if I have a lot of addons.
Not saying I have never lost by mutas picking off my turrets, just not all that often.
I have had good luck with 1 turret in main once I see mutas (mined out before they get enough to deal with mass repair). 1-2 in natural depending on number of mutas. If they are going for big muta ball 3 in at my 3rd. Works great, just keep an eye on that minimap.
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On October 20 2011 01:51 Hider wrote:
1) The real cost of building 4 turrets instead of 2, is not 200. Its much higher, because of the oppurtunity cost of the turrets + opp cost of scv not mining.
2) Also that turret range upgrade is pretty terrible unless you go into late game as you need them for infantry, unless you want to build 3 ebays which just delays everything a lot. If you go mech and you know that the zerg will go muta heavy, sure getting that upgrade might be benefical.
The first point doesn't make sense to me even though I see this errant reasoning a lot (esp re: mules vs scans) - the opportunity cost of something that costs 100 minerals is...100 minerals. I get the mining time thing, but the mining time lost to a turret is roughly 40 minerals. So, you're right I guess, it's 280 instead of 200, but I don't see how that changes the calculation in the OP since all the other things you have to rebuild after harassment also cost mining time (edit: or production time for add-ons).
Opportunity costs don't exist in a vacuum - the big question is 'what else would you get with that money'? Assuming you're rolling with smooth production out of the buildings you've already got (something I wouldn't sacrifice to get turrets unless it was a serious emergency), it seems that the alternative is to save for expansions/more production, and building those new buildings actually costs more mining time than the turrets. For a mech army in particular, you're bottlenecked on gas and limited in your mobility to defend a lot of bases - adding on more orbitals can only go so far. In those cases, I find turrets to be a fantastic mineral sink, since the opportunity 'cost' basically amounts to 'I won't be banking that money' (=good thing).
I agree on 2, though: +range should be reserved for heavy mech. I tend to go pure mech in TvZ and the extra range can have a huge effect. Most players are used to microing their mutas around un-upgraded turrets, so I see a lot of accidental overcommitments or attempts to fly to a corner that turns out to be unsafe. (edit) Finally, you get just a liiittle bit of extra time to help your mass-repair to be totally imba :D
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On October 20 2011 02:36 TheCerebrate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;; Not only that, but he's also negating getting upgrades. We all know how strong 3/3 marines are, but if you're using your engineering bay to crank out more, better turrets, the zerg is going to get ahead on upgrades which is going to cause problems much later in the game. There's just no cost analysis going on in this "guide".
So, you'll lose because you're 3/2 instead of 3/3, and that 3 armor is *80* seconds late?
You don't need engineering bay time to MAKE turrets. Reading comprehension FTL.
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Agree, many times it is better to "mass turret" wall especially for maps where there is only 1 air entrance.
If you guys look at Flash from BW on the map Match point, he would make a huge huge turret wall about 3-4 turrets wide horizontally. It's almost insane but it means he has NO worry about defending from muta harass and no worry from having to rebuild turrets.
This is one reason why I like mech, you have a lot of minerals you can burn; you can easily rally in hellions (which produce really fast considering their value and supply) when you need to attack.
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On October 20 2011 04:16 Audemed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:36 TheCerebrate wrote:On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;; Not only that, but he's also negating getting upgrades. We all know how strong 3/3 marines are, but if you're using your engineering bay to crank out more, better turrets, the zerg is going to get ahead on upgrades which is going to cause problems much later in the game. There's just no cost analysis going on in this "guide". So, you'll lose because you're 3/2 instead of 3/3, and that 3 armor is *80* seconds late? You don't need engineering bay time to MAKE turrets. Reading comprehension FTL.
Excuse me? You're telling him he needs to learn on reading comprehension? I suggest you reread the OP.
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On October 20 2011 04:16 Audemed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:36 TheCerebrate wrote:On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;; Not only that, but he's also negating getting upgrades. We all know how strong 3/3 marines are, but if you're using your engineering bay to crank out more, better turrets, the zerg is going to get ahead on upgrades which is going to cause problems much later in the game. There's just no cost analysis going on in this "guide". So, you'll lose because you're 3/2 instead of 3/3, and that 3 armor is *80* seconds late? You don't need engineering bay time to MAKE turrets. Reading comprehension FTL.
You're not only behind on +3 armour, you're behind on +1 and +2. And while not as game changing as not having +1 atk for a +1 atk timing, +1/+2 armour is really important when fighting against mutas--especially as zergs are starting to realize that mutas can fight small groups of marines well.
It's pretty obvious he means using ebay time to get upgrades. Are you sure you should be criticizing reading comprehension.
Also @op
What are the benefits of putting 4 turrets (x2 for nat/main) and never being able to move out because you have 8 less marines compared to 1-2 per base and using a small group of marines to help defend with the turret, which can be used in your push. 4 immediate turrets per base is like sacrificing a fast 3rd OC because you can't split your marines up to defend.
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On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;;
More or less, yes.
It's made out bigger to try and show the significance of spamming turrets.
This needs replays so we can determine the OP's skill level.
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I will never get +1 turret range before 3/3 marines.
EDIT:
The guide is mostly about turret placement. Which is crucial.
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the best players are players who don't rely on turrets when the first couple of mutas come out but just position your marines where the mutas would come from and have the rest of ur army near your natural. That way you don't spend turrets too early. Spending turrets this early in the game can mean your 3rd expo is much much later. You will sooner or later need to start making turrets after 3rd base is up but having your marines positioned is better than wasting minerals on turrets. End of story. If you build turrets just to defend the first batch of mutas around 10 mins. That is bad.
This is coming from a GM.
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On October 20 2011 04:33 Validity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 04:16 Audemed wrote:On October 20 2011 02:36 TheCerebrate wrote:On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;; Not only that, but he's also negating getting upgrades. We all know how strong 3/3 marines are, but if you're using your engineering bay to crank out more, better turrets, the zerg is going to get ahead on upgrades which is going to cause problems much later in the game. There's just no cost analysis going on in this "guide". So, you'll lose because you're 3/2 instead of 3/3, and that 3 armor is *80* seconds late? You don't need engineering bay time to MAKE turrets. Reading comprehension FTL. You're not only behind on +3 armour, you're behind on +1 and +2. And while not as game changing as not having +1 atk for a +1 atk timing, +1/+2 armour is really important when fighting against mutas--especially as zergs are starting to realize that mutas can fight small groups of marines well. It's pretty obvious he means using ebay time to get upgrades. Are you sure you should be criticizing reading comprehension. Also @op What are the benefits of putting 4 turrets (x2 for nat/main) and never being able to move out because you have 8 less marines compared to 1-2 per base and using a small group of marines to help defend with the turret, which can be used in your push. 4 immediate turrets per base is like sacrificing a fast 3rd OC because you can't split your marines up to defend.
How are you behind on +1/2, just by getting the +1 range? Nobody (including OP) is saying blindly throw up tons of turrets near your mineral lines and production facilities, but once the spire is scouted, and once the mutas are known, drop 4 turrets and deny that. 1200 mins for turrets in various spots to shut down 1200/1200 of mutas? I'll take that.
400 mins worth of turrets can defend against a muta flock more efficiently than 400m of marines, that's a given. Assuming that the 400 is "wasted because he didnt run into it" is analyzing the situation in a vacuum chamber, not looking at the possibility that your marines can get tore up, and have to pull your SCV's when he DOES bring mutas in. How much will THAT slow down 3/3?
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On October 20 2011 05:19 Audemed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 04:33 Validity wrote:On October 20 2011 04:16 Audemed wrote:On October 20 2011 02:36 TheCerebrate wrote:On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;; Not only that, but he's also negating getting upgrades. We all know how strong 3/3 marines are, but if you're using your engineering bay to crank out more, better turrets, the zerg is going to get ahead on upgrades which is going to cause problems much later in the game. There's just no cost analysis going on in this "guide". So, you'll lose because you're 3/2 instead of 3/3, and that 3 armor is *80* seconds late? You don't need engineering bay time to MAKE turrets. Reading comprehension FTL. You're not only behind on +3 armour, you're behind on +1 and +2. And while not as game changing as not having +1 atk for a +1 atk timing, +1/+2 armour is really important when fighting against mutas--especially as zergs are starting to realize that mutas can fight small groups of marines well. It's pretty obvious he means using ebay time to get upgrades. Are you sure you should be criticizing reading comprehension. Also @op What are the benefits of putting 4 turrets (x2 for nat/main) and never being able to move out because you have 8 less marines compared to 1-2 per base and using a small group of marines to help defend with the turret, which can be used in your push. 4 immediate turrets per base is like sacrificing a fast 3rd OC because you can't split your marines up to defend. How are you behind on +1/2, just by getting the +1 range? Nobody (including OP) is saying blindly throw up tons of turrets near your mineral lines and production facilities, but once the spire is scouted, and once the mutas are known, drop 4 turrets and deny that. 1200 mins for turrets in various spots to shut down 1200/1200 of mutas? I'll take that. 400 mins worth of turrets can defend against a muta flock more efficiently than 400m of marines, that's a given. Assuming that the 400 is "wasted because he didnt run into it" is analyzing the situation in a vacuum chamber, not looking at the possibility that your marines can get tore up, and have to pull your SCV's when he DOES bring mutas in. How much will THAT slow down 3/3?
Because you're getting +1 range instead of +1 armour. You need +1 armour to get +2 and +3. I don't understand where the confusion is about "if you are researching b, you are not researching a, therefore a is delayed (and a's future upgrades are delayed)"
Sure, and a fast pf at your natural defends a roach ling all in. But it's terribly inefficient and likewise, you aren't going to be able to push and secure a third (have to pick one or the other) if you're spending 800-1200 on turrets alone.
I have nothing against periodically adding turrets as the muta flock grows, but planting down 8 turrets when you scout muta seems inefficient and excessive when you can simply use the marines you already have to defend fine with 1-2 turrets per base
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Some numbers on turrets vs mutas without upgrades.
1 Turret firing vs 8 Mutas: 1 Turret dies (100/0), 1 Muta dies (100/100)
1 Turret firing vs 16 Mutas: 1 Turret dies (100/0), 0 Muta dies (0/0)
2 Turrets firing vs 8 Mutas: 2 Turrets die (200/0), 4 Mutas die (400/400)
2 Turrets firing vs 16 Mutas: 2 Turrets die (200/0), 2 Mutas die (200/200)
2 Turrets firing vs 24 Mutas: 2 Turrets die (200/0), 1 Muta dies (100/100)
2 Turrets firing vs 32 Mutas: 2 Turrets die (200/0), 0 Muta dies (0/0)
So basically...if the Muta count grows above 16 it doesn't matter how many turrets are in your base. If the Zerg is allowed to engage each Turret individually, with perfect micro they can kill 16 turrets with 0 Muta losses. The only way you can effectively repel Muta flocks greater than 16 is by doubling your turret density.
If Muta ball is between 0-15, then you need 1 turrets worth of coverage for perfect defense
If Muta ball is between 16-32, then you need 2 turrets worth of coverage for perfect defense
If Muta ball is greater then 32, then you need 3 turrets worth of coverage for perfect defense (AKA: At that point, turrets are no longer cost effective to trade against Muta harass. So you also need to bolster your harassment defense with one of the following: 1. threaten a base trade using an army that has strong anti-air capabilities 2. devote some SCVs to defense with repair 3. devote some marines to defense with stim)
Here's some numbers with turret range. FYI, +1 turret range increases the amount of area covered by a turret by about 25%.
Without +1 Turret range, 2 turrets need to be placed within 4 hexes of each other in order to create double coverage.
With +1 Turret range, 2 turrets need to be placed within 5 hexes of each other in order to create double coverage.
Without +1 Turret range, 4 turrets need to be placed within 6 hexes of each other in order to create double coverage.
With +1 Turret range, 4 turrets need to be placed within 7 hexes of each other in order to create double coverage.
As a general rule of thumb, 1 hex of diagonal movement roughly equals 1.5 hexes of vertical/horizontal movement. So if you want to create L-shaped formations to minimize splash you need to place them even closer together.
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Ill just add, as per my previous post, that if you place 2 standard turrets in an L-shape (u need building grid turned on to see wot youre doing) then they can take down 5-6 mutas.
TXX (T = a 2x2 turret, X = 2x2 empty ground)
XXT
or
TX
XX
XT
Try it with the unit tester and u will see, no matter what direction the mutas come from, 5 or 6 will die.
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IMO fast repair+maybe having some marines in your base is better than this and the only time you want to spam that many turrets is when you are maxed and just want every unit to be with your army(maybe with mech if you have a crapton of minerals).
Zerg can simply tech switch if you get this many turrets initially and he can even go broodlords later if he went for air upgrades. Also your mid-game pushes are extremely important since they mostly determine how many bases Z has going to the lategame. You dont want to have 2-3 safe bases vs zerg's 4-6 just because you weakened your pushes by putting your money into turrets.
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After watching so many games seeing great zergs like Idra totally trash some of the best terrans in the game with his muta harass, I've always wondered why more terrans dont do this.
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In the recent GSL TvZ, a lot of the terrans have been turtling with a lot of turrets, I feel it's a good idea.
But the problem is upgrading them, those players are not doing it, unless you're willing to lay down a 3rd engbay, marines upgrades will always have priority, whatever the scenario is, over range and +2 building armor.
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Concerning not sending 4 scvs at a time to build turrets, I don't see how this is worse than having 1 scv build 4 in a row. The lost mining time will be the same, save the minimal time it takes for them to go behind the mineral line to build. Queing up 1 or more turrets on 1 scv is a lot worse for your economy as you are binding up the minerals requierd to build them in advance, when you instead could've used them to something else and built the turret when the last one is done.
Edit: Just a minor thing, this is theorycrafting and given you need 4 turrets, and has nothing to do with building up your defences gradually. Also if anybody disagrees or have agrumetns for other methods they are of course welcome.
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EPT
