EPTSorry, but this guide is pretty useless. Every terran knows that you need turrets against mutas, and I think everyone knew that as the muta clump gets bigger, you need more turrets...
[G] TvZ Turrets - The best muta deterrence - Page 6
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
Sorry, but this guide is pretty useless. Every terran knows that you need turrets against mutas, and I think everyone knew that as the muta clump gets bigger, you need more turrets... | ||
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
On October 20 2011 09:54 Antisocialmunky wrote: How would you counter mass muta strategies like Idra's? He cant  | ||
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Soulriser
United States192 Posts
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Logick
Singapore46 Posts
On October 20 2011 11:41 kofman wrote: In your guide, I see you are getting +1 range before your infantry upgrades... As much as you seem to love turrets, I think thats a little overkill... Sorry, but this guide is pretty useless. Every terran knows that you need turrets against mutas, and I think everyone knew that as the muta clump gets bigger, you need more turrets... heh i guess you didnt notice that i had 3-4 factories in nearly every picture.. guess that means i should have produced more marines from them.. | ||
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
if they are going really muta heavy you don't need that many hellions as a mineral sink anyway. 3/3 marines + micro = the king. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
Lol burn? But seriously, I'd like to see a more professional take on the matter as it seems like Idra's magic bullet against Terran. | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On October 20 2011 12:27 Logick wrote: heh i guess you didnt notice that i had 3-4 factories in nearly every picture.. guess that means i should have produced more marines from them.. Still doesn't change the fact that this guide is pretty much tells every terran what they already know | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
Turrets are there to delay against mutas, not fight them off. WIth marines, they are mobile enough to defend against the mutas while your turrets delay them. Also, against mass mutalisks, what you need is more drops and aggresive play to force the zerg to defend with the mutalisks rather than harras, not turrets. | ||
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Tortious_Tortoise
United States944 Posts
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
On October 20 2011 12:38 kofman wrote: Turrets are there to delay against mutas, not fight them off. WIth marines, they are mobile enough to defend against the mutas while your turrets delay them. Also, against mass mutalisks, what you need is more drops and aggresive play to force the zerg to defend with the mutalisks rather than harras, not turrets. Well the issue is, Idra's go to strategy is to amass the ridiculous muta ball while pulling off textbook engages on the middle of the map when Terran has a window to push him. Otherwise, he harasses with the mutas and delays pushes with the muta so the mutas buy time and do econ damage. Terran's only direct response to this is Thor + turret or mass Thor but this scales poorly since Thors cost so much food and turrets can only do so much DPS/area to defend the Thor. Even the Thor + turret becomes wholely ineffective are ridiculous muta numbers that Idra and pull off when he really goes for it. Theory is Thors keep mutas from stacking to snipe the turrets and the turrets defend the Thor from being magic boxed but once you have so many muta that you can magic box the Thor and kill all the turrets, its a bad day unless you're push just arrived on his natural creep. You can go mass Thor but mass Thor has a whole lot of problems against various things zerg does including an engage that kills most of your army followed by roach/infestor or ultra or brood lord remax... So really, the answers are not so simple. My line has always been the broodwar line, get into Zerg's face and force him to have to defend with his mutas instead of harass you. | ||
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CrAzEdMiKe
Canada151 Posts
The only thing I can think of that seems reasonable is to build the second engineering bay sooner... From most Terrans that I've seen (on ladder as well as in casts/tourneys etc) the common trend is to get a single engineering bay, start +1 attack, then start +1 armor and then around the time the +1 armor is almost finished, get that second engineering bay up armory to begin churning out +2/+2 at about the same time. My proposal for a marine/tank mix might be to get that second engineering bay a little sooner than usual, get the hi-sec autotracking out of the way before you start working on your armory. Yeah you'll be down some minerals and gas... But that upgrade truly does make turrets and even PFs much more effective. Obviously in a mech build this is no problem at all as you won't be upgrading your two marines that you've got out on the field lol. This also gives me wacky ideas to actually try out marine/raven in TvZ (yes I've read the guide already... it's kinda what inspired me in the first place). | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
I seriously think it's much better to upgrade marines quickly against mass mutas over getting turret range. If they're putting all their gas into mutas it means they aren't teching fast into infestors or broodlords so heavily upgraded marines against zerglings/mutas that probably are behind in upgrades would do well if you can find a timing to attack. | ||
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akalarry
United States1978 Posts
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On October 20 2011 13:02 Antisocialmunky wrote: Well the issue is, Idra's go to strategy is to amass the ridiculous muta ball while pulling off textbook engages on the middle of the map when Terran has a window to push him. Otherwise, he harasses with the mutas and delays pushes with the muta so the mutas buy time and do econ damage. Terran's only direct response to this is Thor + turret or mass Thor but this scales poorly since Thors cost so much food and turrets can only do so much DPS/area to defend the Thor. Even the Thor + turret becomes wholely ineffective are ridiculous muta numbers that Idra and pull off when he really goes for it. Theory is Thors keep mutas from stacking to snipe the turrets and the turrets defend the Thor from being magic boxed but once you have so many muta that you can magic box the Thor and kill all the turrets, its a bad day unless you're push just arrived on his natural creep. You can go mass Thor but mass Thor has a whole lot of problems against various things zerg does including an engage that kills most of your army followed by roach/infestor or ultra or brood lord remax... So really, the answers are not so simple. My line has always been the broodwar line, get into Zerg's face and force him to have to defend with his mutas instead of harass you. So basically, you are agreeing with me... I think people over value thors against mutalisks, in fact marines are the better counter because they are expendable, faster, and can kill mutas a lot faster. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
By the time you get on 3 base and mass muta becomes a problem, you can skew your production quite heavily in high gas/high min unit cops or unit comps with balanced gas/min cost. And those alternatives don't require upgrades to be useful at anti-muta. | ||
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Iselian
United States56 Posts
I do think they could make for a decent/good mineral dump, should macro be slipping. But, there's always the option to also drop another rax or two and pump more marines. The benefit to the marines again being their mobility. With the aforementioned use of turrets as a mineral dump, I could easily see hi-sec being a good investment. Planetaries are likely, and that extra range isn't a bad idea. | ||
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Logick
Singapore46 Posts
On October 20 2011 12:36 kofman wrote: Still doesn't change the fact that this guide is pretty much tells every terran what they already know if you dont like it, don't read it this is just something i wrote up which i thought might help a few people (and apparently it does) so if you skimmed through the thread and thought it was useless, you don't have to add useless comments either I'm fine with people disagreeing but you are just being silly | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On October 20 2011 14:06 Logick wrote: if you dont like it, don't read it this is just something i wrote up which i thought might help a few people (and apparently it does) so if you skimmed through the thread and thought it was useless, you don't have to add useless comments either I'm fine with people disagreeing but you are just being silly You are contradicting yourself. If you're fine with people disagreeing with you, why are you being so defensive? In my opinion, this guide is not very helpful because everybody knows this already. If you think otherwise, then fine. | ||
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Logick
Singapore46 Posts
rather you dont come off as disagreeing but rather pompous as if to say: "im too smart for this i win" and rather if u read through the thread then you should know that some people find this information somewhat useful so unless the word "everyone" has changed its meaning in the english language, you need to look up a dictionary and rather than being defensive I'm trying keep the criticism constructive rather than your stupid 1 line statement if youre a GM then good for you but not everyone who goes through the forum is a GM are they edit: and if its your opinion that the thread is not useful then keep it to yourself unless you have something to bring to the table than a 1 liner | ||
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Kornholi0
Canada634 Posts
A bunker full of marines is cheaper than this :| | ||
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