EPTwow, ingenious...
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[G] TvZ Turrets - The best muta deterrence - Page 7
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shadymmj
1906 Posts
wow, ingenious... how are you supposed to know if you like something or not if you don't read it first? | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On October 20 2011 14:25 Logick wrote: the fact is your statement comes off as dismissive and neither does it contribute to the discussion rather you dont come off as disagreeing but rather pompous as if to say: "im too smart for this i win" and rather if u read through the thread then you should know that some people find this information somewhat useful so unless the word "everyone" has changed its meaning in the english language, you need to look up a dictionary and rather than being defensive I'm trying keep the criticism constructive rather than your stupid 1 line statement if youre a GM then good for you but not everyone who goes through the forum is a GM are they edit: and if its your opinion that the thread is not useful then keep it to yourself unless you have something to bring to the table than a 1 liner man, you really like to argue. All I said was that I don't think this thread is very useful, since everybody knows about turrets already. No need to get all sensitive. | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On October 20 2011 13:24 akalarry wrote: what pros do to successfully defend against pro muta play like dongreagu and idra is they make a few turrets to deter initial harass. when the muta count picks up, they'll add just enough turrets so that the mutas don't do any real damage before backup marines arrive. the pack of marines can usually defend a few places at once, for example placing them by the ramp can protect both the main and natural. if they know the muta count will keep growing, then they'll add in a thor or two to further minimize damage. This. You add on turrets to the ring as you scout them continuing muta count. Even though the OP might not have experience vs top 20 GM or some shiot, it's pretty frustrating watching TvZ lately in tournaments where the Terran refuses to build missile turrets and mutas fly in, kill the turrets, fly out, Terran builds just like 2 more turrets...mutas come in and rape em like it's nothing...just as OP described...so yeah...more T should make turrets...lol but dunno if this is a guide so much as a PSA about missile turrets lol ^_^ Also, the range upgrade is very good. | ||
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djbhINDI
United States372 Posts
On October 20 2011 15:13 kofman wrote: man, you really like to argue. All I said was that I don't think this thread is very useful, since everybody knows about turrets already. No need to get all sensitive. Not really. Many bnet users copy the pros. Only in rare cases do they make more than 1-2 turrets at a time. It's important to know that when you don't have MMA or MVP's control, 1-2 is not enough, because attacking with mutas is easier than defending with marines in bronze. | ||
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Oliveran
Sweden72 Posts
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TheBomb
237 Posts
This is about done up to the 10-12 ingame minute depending and I add two more turrets by the 14th ingame minute mark. Overall I also have 4 turrets in the production line and 3 turrets in the mineral line with 8 marines that always sit in the base. I never push out with them and it works pretty good. Also when expanding I build immediately a bunker touching one of the gases and then wall it off with depots going from the bunker to the CC to safeguard from banelings and zerglings. With the 3 turets it also helps against mutalisks. | ||
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Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
The problem with building lots of turrets, that I've encountered in my own play, is twofold: 1. Placement: Turrets need, obviously, to be placed properly. It doesn't help to have 12 turrets if a critical part of your base is only protected by one or two. They need to be able to cover each other or you are wasting money. 2. Gradualism: Its easy to just build ten turrets right when you first see the mutas, but also quite foolish. Such an expenditure, all at once, will slow down your production an economy dramatically and you will quickly lose any momentum. Besides theres the possibility that they dont build any mutas, or at least not many. When the mutas first show up there will usually be only 9 or 10, and you only need a few turrets and marines to defend. What Bomber does is hebuilds only 1 per base initially, then slowly adds more over time until his base is fully defended once he wants to move out with his army. Edit: to summarize, if you like building lots of turrets and want to see someone qualified demonstrate it, watch Bomber. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
I mean of course we are going to build turrets if we see muta. After reading your Problem statement, which is of course true, and experiencing the "Problem" as a high master terran, I've found my own solution as indeed we all should. And it is not to drop 5 turrets and get the +1 range and armor upgrade early on. Its to reposition your army (thor/ marine + medivac) where the muta may come in. Drop a few turrets around crucial production facilities and add ons. But dont delay expanding and units, with 5+ turrets in both mineral lines. Good micro and map sense is preventative in this regard | ||
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quantumslip
United States188 Posts
1) you don't build it all at once 2) scout before building 3) some people have the mentality that static D = bad (like for Protoss, OMG you built a cannon now you don't have 150 minerals for a zealot and a probe now), when in reality wise static D = good (seems like he's going air, I'll build turrets so my army can be more mobile) | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
On October 21 2011 00:11 quantumslip wrote: some people are missing big points in this thread 1) you don't build it all at once 2) scout before building 3) some people have the mentality that static D = bad (like for Protoss, OMG you built a cannon now you don't have 150 minerals for a zealot and a probe now), when in reality wise static D = good (seems like he's going air, I'll build turrets so my army can be more mobile) How do you scout whether the zerg will have 15 mutas or 30 mutas in 30 seconds? You cant, and hence you need (according to how i understand op) to build up enough turrets to defend vs worst possible scenario (which is 30 mutas). Since there must be no weak angle, you need to make an insane amount of turrets, and hence you will never be able to produce enough mariens to attack. | ||
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Logick
Singapore46 Posts
On October 21 2011 00:19 Hider wrote: How do you scout whether the zerg will have 15 mutas or 30 mutas in 30 seconds? You cant, and hence you need (according to how i understand op) to build up enough turrets to defend vs worst possible scenario (which is 30 mutas). Since there must be no weak angle, you need to make an insane amount of turrets, and hence you will never be able to produce enough mariens to attack. you determine the muta number by what his current army composition is if hes going muta-ling-bane then he will be pretty muta heavy if you see heavy roach, or ling infestor, or roach ling, etc, you will probably deal with light muta harass its the understanding of what unit composition your opponent is going for that determines your reaction.. these are really basic things I guess you just didnt get any of the points i was trying to bring across note that I say that the turrets should deter the mutas and even in a heavy clump of 25 mutas, if your opponent bothers to take out all 4 turrets, reinforcements would have arrived already to deal with them or while trying to take out the turrets to do more dmg to your base, you could move out for a timing you and other people seem to have the misconception that I'm saying "you have to make an insane amount of turrets to completely defend yourself against mutas" when in reality my point is, a few extra turrets will act as a good deterrence against small to medium size clumps, while against ridiculously big clumps it will buy you time and options to do counter attacks or defend your base | ||
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Hider
Denmark9420 Posts
On October 21 2011 00:45 Logick wrote: you determine the muta number by what his current army composition is if hes going muta-ling-bane then he will be pretty muta heavy if you see heavy roach, or ling infestor, or roach ling, etc, you will probably deal with light muta harass its the understanding of what unit composition your opponent is going for that determines your reaction.. these are really basic things I guess you just didnt get any of the points i was trying to bring across note that I say that the turrets should deter the mutas and even in a heavy clump of 25 mutas, if your opponent bothers to take out all 4 turrets, reinforcements would have arrived already to deal with them or while trying to take out the turrets to do more dmg to your base, you could move out for a timing you and other people seem to have the misconception that I'm saying "you have to make an insane amount of turrets to completely defend yourself against mutas" when in reality my point is, a few extra turrets will act as a good deterrence against small to medium size clumps, while against ridiculously big clumps it will buy you time and options to do counter attacks or defend your base Well you assume that you know your opponents exact unit composition through all the game, and this is just a wrong assumption, because of the larva-mechanicms. Anyway, OK as I understand you, you only want to "overbuild" turrets in early mid game (so no gradual increases?). But then the same problem arises. How do you attack if your opponent has 25 +2 mutas? Here the difference between 4 and 2 turrets is only like 0.5 seconds before those 2 extra turrets are dead. And then your main is vulnerabe. Why not (according to your logic) build gradually more turrets if you fear the zerg will have more than 15 mutas? As I see it there is barely any difference between having 2 turrets when opp has 10-15 mutas, and 4 turrets when opp has 25 mutas. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On October 21 2011 02:22 Hider wrote: Well you assume that you know your opponents exact unit composition through all the game, and this is just a wrong assumption, because of the larva-mechanicms. Anyway, OK as I understand you, you only want to "overbuild" turrets in early mid game (so no gradual increases?). But then the same problem arises. How do you attack if your opponent has 25 +2 mutas? Here the difference between 4 and 2 turrets is only like 0.5 seconds before those 2 extra turrets are dead. And then your main is vulnerabe. Why not (according to your logic) build gradually more turrets according to expected worst amount of mutas that the zerg can attack you with in 30 seconds? As I see it there is barely any difference between having 2 turrets when opp has 10-15 mutas, and 4 turrets when opp has 25 mutas. Yeah I agree, with larva mechanics you can't take for granted WHAT the zerg army might be, no matter what you see on the field. This thread is silly to me, as I expressed in a previous post. Granted this thread may not be for me and may be for lower players who are not able to divide their army and appropriate it effectively. When you say that Bomber builds tons of turrets, he does but only AFTER he sees a ton of muta and ONLY in the late game. This thread makes the presumption that many turrets must be thrown down BEFORE you even know how many mutalisks he has, which is silly. If a zerg spots a bunch of turrets via a scouting overlord, they may skip the muta tech altogether and just expand and macro harder. And they could do that because 1,000 minerals went into turrets (5 on each mineral line as you say, not including those on the exterior of your base), when that $$$ could have gone into an expand, upgrades, better tech. For these reasons, this makes no sense.... and indeed, it may cost you the game. | ||
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Kiarip
United States1835 Posts
On October 20 2011 15:21 avilo wrote: This. You add on turrets to the ring as you scout them continuing muta count. Even though the OP might not have experience vs top 20 GM or some shiot, it's pretty frustrating watching TvZ lately in tournaments where the Terran refuses to build missile turrets and mutas fly in, kill the turrets, fly out, Terran builds just like 2 more turrets...mutas come in and rape em like it's nothing...just as OP described...so yeah...more T should make turrets...lol but dunno if this is a guide so much as a PSA about missile turrets lol ^_^ Also, the range upgrade is very good. lol the range upgrade... Try the building upgrade!!! + 2 armor on buildings, if you build turrets in groups it minimizes the damage you take from splash, and neutralizes up to 2 attack upgrades from primary attack!! edit: oh it was already mentioned sry =( | ||
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kopi
Australia17 Posts
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Snusdosa
Sweden112 Posts
On October 19 2011 23:29 Antisocialmunky wrote: +2 armor basically negates the third bounce and heavily reduces damage from the first bounce and initial attack. Also, you're never going to have enough minerals in SCII to spam turrets everywhere because marines are so necessary. I mean, in SC, late game Terran could just have walls and walls of turrets when they switched to mech. Honestly, spending 300 minerals extra on turrets will end up saving you a lot more in the long run unless you're extremely good at muta defense. One depot here, two SCVs there, 4 stray marines, then rebuilding two turrets that got taken out before your marines arrived etc etc. You wont have to stim your marines as much, you wont have to multitask quite as much, 20 mutas wont force you to leave 15 marines in your base when pushing. | ||
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On October 21 2011 03:08 Snusdosa wrote: Honestly, spending 300 minerals extra on turrets will end up saving you a lot more in the long run unless you're extremely good at muta defense. One depot here, two SCVs there, 4 stray marines, then rebuilding two turrets that got taken out before your marines arrived etc etc. You wont have to stim your marines as much, you wont have to multitask quite as much, 20 mutas wont force you to leave 15 marines in your base when pushing. Yeah but there are ways to be more proactive in your defense of mutas. If you suspect mutas or indeed scan them, leaving a small group of marines with medivac support is a great way to ward off potential attacks. Furthermore, many pros leave Thors in mineral lines before a push for this reason. A few Thor volleys are enough to deter and send a very clear message to zerg players utilizing muta play (gtfo!). Like I mentioned earlier, if you are not good at multitasking or do not respond well to harass, then dropping 10 turrets might be best for you at lower levels. However, at higher levels the need for a proactive mobile force is paramount, and trading crucial resources on static defense is a trade I would not like to make. The only time I will drop a bunch of turrets is right before leaving for a push so zerg can't take a few potshots at me while I'm walking over to destroy them. | ||
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Antisocialmunky
United States5912 Posts
A few turrets with a few marines are probably best as of right now rather than all one or the other. | ||
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Sevenofnines
United States167 Posts
When should you not mass turrets: -When playing "standard" marine/tank based builds. You should be spending your minerals into marines and using them to deter mutas with good placement. You will probably be pushing out when near maxed. You don't want to spend into mass turrets because that just delays your max army push which allows Zerg to bank up even more money for his "300 food" army. You want to be spending everything into maxing out with good upgrades. The mobility of your marines means that you can fight off mutas pretty effectively without massing up turrets. When you should mass turrets: -When playing pure mech. Because you are so immobile, you need mass turrets to give your units the tactical edge to move out. Since your E-bay isn't being used for bio upgrades, you can go ahead and use it for Hi-Sec & Building Armor. Also, since he's massing mutas and your mineral dump (helions) aren't so great against mutas, you might as well dump it into turrets. -Very late game when playing standard marine/tank/x and you are maxed out. Because Terran cannot bank money and dump it quickly, you might as well do something with that money. Neutralizing mutalisk counter-attacks so that the only thing they are good for is straight up fighting is as good a money expenditure as any at that point. At this point, if Zerg doesn't have Hive tech he will most likely lose. That being said, Turrets have a certain tactical value in that they allow your units the ability to move out and pressure Zerg. This is a difficult value to quantify, since moving units out to pressure Zerg can potentially delay their drone production by forcing units. Thus while your army may be smaller because you spent money into turrets, you've "damaged" the Zerg by being able to freely move around the map and apply pressure with the units that you do have. The key here is to not overmake turrets so that your army is still a threatening size, but making enough so that Mutas don't just have free reign over your bases. It's a delicate balance to strike, even for the pros. | ||
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
but it doesnt hurt to have both if you have alot of gas. | ||
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