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Hey guys its me again. A while back I wrote a guide about how to increase the effectiveness of helion roasting usage (which I will be updating with more tips soon when i have the time)
now i would like to bring you a simple guide into a deterrence against mutas
now I've actually used the search function to look for turret guides / discussions and most of them are pretty outdated
so before anyone goes: "wow dude really we all know that you need to get turrets"
actually read before you set your mindsets to "criticize" mode
It takes a fair bit of time to actually write up and prepare a guide nicely, so I strongly urge that you guys will do me a small ounce of respect and actually read it through before you set your fingers to "flame on"
Intro
+ Show Spoiler +
for those of you watching high level plays like in the GSL, I'm sure you guys have seen how devastating the effect mutas can have on your base when you poop out that single thor only to have it magicbox-ed and killed
or when you go marine tank with 1 or 2 turrents but the muta ball is just too big and so the harassment tends to keep you locked in your base while zerg takes map control
WELL NO MORE I SAY
its time to understand why more than 2 turrets can save you hundreds of minerals and possibly push zerg into another unit composition
first off a very important upgrade:
+ Show Spoiler +HI-Sec Auto Tracking: Gives + 1 range to turret and planetary range![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/RnC68.jpg) this upgrade is game changing in your deterrence against mutas. where before mutas were barely out of reach of your second turret, they will most likely be taking a few more shots than they should, and of course they would be taking oncoming fire slightly earlier than they'd expect
The Problem
+ Show Spoiler +Now you might be thinking, yeah 2 turrents on either side of the mineral line should be enough to stop mutas
really? do you really believe they wont hit around 15-20 mutas and just blow up that turret and move on to your workers next?
how many times have you had mutas:
1. just fly in, take out your turrets and a few SCVs,
2. fly off, you rebuild,
and then they fly back in again and steps one and 2 are repeated over and over
effectively you already losing minerals and workers leading to a worse economy if you had built more turrets
Deterrence
+ Show Spoiler +Now when I say deterrence, I mean when they make mutas, they are going to be just as useless as lings to a walled off base.
and heres how you are going to achieve it:
You're not going to build, 1 turret, not 2, but 3 and maybe even 4 turrets by your mineral line/production facilities
Turret Placement
+ Show Spoiler +Below, on Xelnaga Caverns you will see how these 3 turrets will not only do a large amount of dmg to mutas, but it might also cause a hesitant reaction in the zerg player, the question for them being, "how much dmg do i wanna take to make my mutas cost effective" this amount of turrets will also allow a sufficient delay time for reinforcements to come, generally, once they are done with the turrets and want to work on the workers, my reinforcements would arrive just in time to shoo them off ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sL6Ft.jpg) on the same map, but at the expansion mineral line these 3 turrets deter any form of muta harass that might come your way. I place all the turrets on one side because I know that the other side that mutas usually fly in from after destroying my turrets in the main will be well defended ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SFLK0.jpg) This is how i protect my addons and important upgrade buildings. These 4 turrets ensure that mutas wont fly in and pick off emerging siege tanks, armories/ebays (while upgrading), depots, and of course addons as you can see, my siege tank is warmly nuzzled in there without a care in the world ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/y0Zsn.jpg) on maps where there is only 1 point of entry for mutas to enter your main for harass, a prime example being Shakuras Plateau, you can effective defend your whole main from any muta harass as follows: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/UgKCh.jpg) of course you can build the turrets a bit further out if you want more space for your buildings but either way the end result is: you have effectively blocked off ANY possible destruction of tech labs, upgrade structures, depots or SCVs with just 400 minerals
The Argument
+ Show Spoiler +
now before you go: "u mad bro? I need those minerals for marines"
let me ask, how much minerals have you lost having your tech labs, SCVs, turrets, supply depots and those small groups of marines next to that 1 turret you thought would hold off against those mutas a few hundred?
having your techlabs or reactors destroyed which seriously hinder you unit count or even supply depots destroyed which could possibly lead to a supply block at critical moments, this is the price you pay when you make only 1 or 2 turrets
The Logic
+ Show Spoiler +you know yourself that 1 turret and 8 marines wont hold off 15 mutas, losing that alone is gonna cost you 500 minerals, and then you just add whatever else the mutas destroy to that list why invest 200 minerals into 2 turrets when you are going to lose it to a big murder of mutas? Just invest 400 minerals immediately just one time, and have complete deterrence heres a good example of what happened when i built only 2 turrets to protect my addons ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zByx2.jpg) and heres how safe I will be after investing 400 minerals ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/TDiP6.jpg) effectively, the 400 minerals are a long term and a worth it investment I cannot stress enough how just 400 minerals will save you lots of time having to rebuild techlabs, units, depots, and reactors (oh god dont even get me started on how long it feels to rebuild one)
What will be achieved
+ Show Spoiler +
1. mutas will not destroy your turrets repeatedly saving you minerals on rebuilding them and lost SCVs
2. you can save the addson for important unit structures like your factories or reactor-ed barracks/starports
3. a slight possibility that zerg will go into a different unit composition
4. it brings you the knowledge of security, you can push out of your base knowing that you wont have to turn around your hold army
important to know
+ Show Spoiler +you aren't going to immediately just drop down 4 turrets just for the sake of it, scout out the spire first, scan it.
first off understand what unit composition hes going for
if its muta ling bane then yes, most likely hes going to be pretty muta heavy and you might wanna get more turrets
if he however is going for maybe just 6-8 mutas for light harassment, 2 turrets do just fine
secondly, you want to gradually build up the turrets. by gradually i mean you can do it one at a time, or you can build 1 and have the SCV building it Q up the next one, but remember to Q another as you go
you don't ever wanna send 4 SCVs at a time that's just, a waste of mining time and not to mention a waste of immediate minerals (key word immediate)
also another important thing, to maintain a healthy unit production and defense, make sure you have already expanded and you have kept up with your worker count
also the turret range upgrade is extremely important,
do not bother making more than 2 turrets if youre not going to get this upgrade
this is by no means a form of deterrence off 1 base
Building Armor Upgrade
+ Show Spoiler +
props to Antisocialmunky for the numbers
Mutas are:
9(+1.000) first hit
3(+0.333) first bounce
1(+0.111) second bounce
+3 Mutas are:
12
4
1
+2 building armor makes that:
10
2
0.5.
Or with just +1 on the standard timing:
8
1
0.5
This applies to depots and add-ons as well.
So vs mutas, with +2 building armor reduces their damage by 4.5 out of a max of 17 damage or around 25% at +3 or 33% of 15 damage at +1.
personally I've never had a reason to get building armor but I guess you can get it if you opponent is one of those "diehard must kill something with these mutas" kind of people
these things are may seem really basic, and you can choose to dismiss what I've written down immediately
but remember that sometimes the basics are the most important things
Replay
+ Show Spoiler +here's a replay on how powerful of an effect turrets have against a flock of 30 mutas: http://www.mediafire.com/?cx11cwu44jslzde- around the 13min mark his mutas fly into my base and achieves absolutely no dmg at all except killing one SCV. he loses 3-4 mutas instead - at 23:50 mark, he flys 30 mutas into my main, with 3 turrets guarding my production structures - literally in seconds, 1 muta goes down, and shortly after 2 more before all 3 turrets die - by that time my reinforcing units have already arrived to deal with the mutas although he has terribly muta control, the key point is to note the amount of dmg he takes with just 3 turrets with +1 range at the 23:50 mark, compared to what I've lost
Some Extra Stuff
+ Show Spoiler +I will be doing a short update on my helion harass tips guide you can find it here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=233188I will also be writing up a new TvZ guide when I have the time which will incorporate this kind of heavy turret defense while being able to heavily produce units, so look forward to that in the next couple of days
I guess that's pretty much it, discuss and let me know what you think
I welcome all criticism as long as it remains constructive
Please read this following bit carefully
a lot of people seem to be overlooking some of the stuff written so I'll add it here again:
1. No you do not blindly make 4 turrets, as mentioned in the *important to know section*, you should scout out timing of the spire + the unit composition your enemy is going for before you decide how many turrets to build, but usually 2 is the normal amount for light muta harassment (6-8 mutas)
2. you do not want to make as many turrets as I've mentioned if you're going for a timing push
3. neither do you want to make as many turrets if you do not have the resources for it, check the resources on the pictures to see how much minerals I have as well as my army size
Stuff I should have mentioned
these are somethings that i forgot to mention and I apologize but here they are:
1. Once again, this strategy is NOT for someone doing a timing push, especially if youre going marine tank
2. this build doesnt not rely on, but it does work well with heavy mech builds that include 1 or 2 thors
3. DO NO ATTEMPT to build that many turrets if you dont have the income for it (obviously I do which is why i have that many turrets)
4. this kind of defense works very well with mech style play, but that doesnt mean marine tank doesnt work well with it either
but note that if you do go marine tank, then you are most likely going for a timing push and if thats the case you do not want to make that many turrets as stated in point #1
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theres currently a problem with the image uploads so I'll try to get it up asap
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the pictures are not loading for me! so my question is: did you include the "L" shape of placing 2 turrets, where both can shoot, but only one is going to be hit by the mutas?
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Maybe point out some good examples of heavy/successful turret use? It seems like none of the images appear, and your guide is preettty rough on the edges. It also seems like it does not do much other than say:
"Look bro, I know you are mad, but make more turrets though because 1-2 gets killed"
I dunno, I guess that's useful advice. It might be more effective to just point out that players should utilize turrets a little more if the muta ball is very large. To that end I think any Terran should just watch a bunch of Mvp's TvZ matches in which his positioning of marines and turrets around his base totally negates the muta investment/harass. But even there, Mvp is not solely relying on heavier turret use. He's making it work by brilliantly scattering units until he is ready to gather up and push out. I don't think Mvp would simplify the argument about how to combat mutas to "just make more turrets bro, and get the upgrade"
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hey guys sorry im trying to fix the images as we speak so hang tight 
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Sounds about right.
Still, I feel very secure with only one turret at each mineral line when the spire is just out. Adding on more than two is useful advice after the spire has been around for a while, though, justified by the fact that 400 minerals isn't a huge investment later on in the game.
Any thoughts about the building armor upgrade? sdR's post makes it less significant of an upgrade (since muta attacks won't bounce to the second turret anyway), but I think it has a place in this thread.
P.S. - Use imgur for the images, they usually work fine for me.
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What you dont realize is that turrets means less money at different times of the game. It's an overreaction, you lose possible timings etc by going straight to 4 turrets. Turrets should scale depending on how spread out you are and scouting. Marines and medivacs with upgrades and a few turrets is usuaaly more than enough. if it gets overwhelming you mix in one thor with your turrets and expos.
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+2 armor basically negates the third bounce and heavily reduces damage from the first bounce and initial attack.
Also, you're never going to have enough minerals in SCII to spam turrets everywhere because marines are so necessary. I mean, in SC, late game Terran could just have walls and walls of turrets when they switched to mech.
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Turrets have one problem, even in numbers and that is being static defense.
You could protect your mineral line with 5 turrets you slowly built up over time (with building armor and hi-sec) but that Factory or Armory over there only has 1 or no turrets protecting it.
You cannot defend your entire base and at best you can move the Mutas away from the mineral line.
Still, I am intrigued when it comes to mineral line defense, I'll see how adding more turrets affects mutas but they will always be able to find something vulnerable to pick off.
Generally speaking though (emphasis on generally) if Zerg commits to a huge amount of mutas, you should be able to move up to one of his bases and just kill it off and force the mutas back.
More mutas mean less lings and banelings.
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You'd almost be better off building +1/+2 armor vikings for turtling since that will beat an even number of muta.
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ok the images are now uploaded
@Waah:
i've never actually gotten to the point where i needed to get the armor because usually the mutas come in and when they see 4 turrets they reaction my opponent gets (or how i think he gets anyway) is something like: "woah wtf"
of if they even try to break a couple of turrets "ok screw this"
@Antisocialmunky:
wow I never knew that the armor upgrade would negate the bounce, I will try getting it sometime if my opponent decides that he like to suicide tons of mutas cost in-efficiently
and I would have to disagree with your 2nd statement, obviously I have enough minerals to guard my base, and at the same time produce 3 siege tanks at a go and in the screenshot im sure you can see I have another 600 minerals banked up and in some over a thousand
now the reason why i have so much resources is because i have about 3-4 orbitals running which ensures that I will always be able to produce steadily
as for upgrades, i tend to do vehicle weapons, i nearly never bother with air upgrade, maybe occasionally when im losing into anti-air count ill get some weapon upgrades but other than that, i mainly tend to go heavy mech upgrades
@ darkwinja
as i mentioned in the post you wanna gradually build up the defense and not do it immediately
immediately being: sending 4 SCVs at one go and building them
also yeah marines and medivacs have their worth in minerals too, do you ever wanna move out of your base? and how many marines are you willing to leave in you base to defend a ball of say 20 mutas?
8? which will get destroyed easily?
or 16? which means your force moving out has less marines in it
not to mention marines defending against mutas will lead to a lot of forced stims,
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On October 19 2011 23:35 Antisocialmunky wrote:
You'd almost be better off building +1/+2 armor vikings for turtling since that will beat an even number of muta.
For turtling, wouldn't attack upgraded thors with marine support be even better? Armor upgraded vikings seem so wacky to me. Not that I don't see why one would do it, but rather because it's a big investment and there's no real use to benefit from those upgrades after the mutas are dead (unless there's some crazy +2 armor battlecruiser transition, haha)
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Mutas are:
9(+1.000)
3(+0.333)
1(+0.111)
+3 Mutas are:
12
4
1
+2 building armor makes that:
10
2
0.5.
Or with just +1 on the standard timing:
8
1
.05
Applies to depots and add-ons as well.
So vs mutas, +2 building armor reduces by 4.5 damage out of a max of 17 damage or around 25% at +3 or 33% of 15 damage at +1.
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Hey mate. As a mid/high master zerg player (and ZvT definately being my strongest matchup, maybe high master) here's my few cents on your argumentation.
Does MASS turrets deter me when I poke in with my first 7-8 mutalisks? Yes, yes it does. In most maps, something like 4 turrets in and around the mineral line and another 4 turrets spread amongst your production facilities would be enough to make me think twice. But then you also need those 4 turrets at your natural expo, and probably one or two at your front too to keep me from sniping rallied units when you are moved out. Easily 12 turrets. That you say is basically worth it to make. Blindly. 1200 minerals + the appropriate mining time loss, for 8 mutalisks. Sure, those 8 mutas wont do squat. Maybe the 4-5 mutas I had been training whilst flying towards your base wont do squat either. Except help me ward off medivac drops, snipe lone tanks etc.
So for investing say 1200/1200 in mutalisks tech - gas that I have in the midgame if this was my tech of choice - gets you to spend equally much mineral. That is 24 marines you dont have. That is a lot of pushing power that I just denied to you / a very delayed push.
Am i saying mass turret defense is bad? Absolutely not. But its bad to just toss up tons of turrets at the 11 minute mark because mutas "might be in masses later in the game".
I would suggest you alter your strategic advice into this. Start off with your normal turret defense; one, maybe 2 turrets in / around the mineral line, and 1 or 2 around the production, too. When the first couple of mutas come, this effectively means you are safe - for now. Then you push out, to either deal damage or take a third behind it or whatever. By doing the push you force units, which limit the mutalisk count. After the push is done, or during the push if you have the multitasking for it, you can now evaluate. Do I need more turrets? Did I see a shit ton of banelings, or infestors, or did I maybe even drop his main and see double evo + a hive on the way? If this is the case, you probably dont need those extra turrets. If you see still lair, and many pure lings with maybe only +1 armor, you know to imidiately upgrade your turret count to double. And even then, i would probably still put a thor.
Things to watch; Dont stack turrets. Muta splash will kill them faster.
Dont place turrets such that at any time, only one turret can hit mutas. Always make sure that if the zerg can hit your turrets, at least two turrets will be hitting back.
Because honestly, if I am going mutalisk heavy, I do not care if I see super many turrets. I know that every turret is 2 marines you wont have when pushing, and once I have the mutalisk count to oneshot turrets it no longer matters to me how many turrets there are; the only thing you acheive at this point is to have turrets buy time for your marines to arrive. And while this might be awesome sauce, its still a huge loss compared to how little I will lose at this amount of mutas.
To sum up; yes, many terrans could win alot more if they were smarter with turrets. Smarter being "keep up with the pace of the game", rather than "place turrets at 11 min mark and then think this will solve everything for the entire game". Smarter NOT being "down payment of 2k mineral at 11 min mark to prepare for his 15 min mark mutalisk count". As with all mass unit strategies, the simplest counter is probably "dont let him get there". Of course its not that simple, but yeah. i hope this whole post makes sense, it does in my head but im not too sure if it does on screen; long day in the lab. Which, incidentally, is still not over. Back to measuring.
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@ waah
indeed you are right, i use upgrade thors into my army composition and a slight form of defense before i move out
a single lvl 3 weapons thor brings an un-upgraded muta to 48 hp in 1 volley
@antisocialmunky
those stats are very nice to know if you dont mind, I'll add that to the guide
@thraundil
i get you point good sir
but as I've stated in the guide, under the important to know section, i mention to scout out the spire and the unit composition before making that amount of turrets
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This is awesome... I'll try it.. sometimes when i see that the muta harass is so effective, there is nothing else to do
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Might be an interesting Thought but it seems to me that 400 minerals is a bit too overreacted.
Due to the fact that late game Larva mechanics are faster in producing i would rather spend my minerals on production facilities. With 1000 on my bank i could build like 2-3 rax or 2 rax and a fact or something that might be better to be aggressive while having some marines produced and rallied up in my base.
The upgrade does not seem that necessary for me because i think will be never a game where my base is totally safe and mutas still can come in and harass somehow.
Most of the times 1-3 Turrets and the support of Marines or a Thor to get time to pull marines is enough.
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4turret+range upgrade stop how many muta ?
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On October 19 2011 23:41 Waah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 23:35 Antisocialmunky wrote:
You'd almost be better off building +1/+2 armor vikings for turtling since that will beat an even number of muta. For turtling, wouldn't attack upgraded thors with marine support be even better? Armor upgraded vikings seem so wacky to me. Not that I don't see why one would do it, but rather because it's a big investment and there's no real use to benefit from those upgrades after the mutas are dead (unless there's some crazy +2 armor battlecruiser transition, haha)
It is actually quite wacky, but it is one of those strange facts that are basically useless right now. Up armor vikings actually rape Mutas but no one goes for air ups or vikings because they cost so much gas.
It is Terran's most mobile muta counter but pretty much impractical. Who knows, maybe there will be some sort of ridiculous SCII Fantasy build that uses them one day.
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And it is not a good idea to add a bunker in the mineral line with marines besides turrets? .. maybe?
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Bunker with 4 marines is 300 minerals that only has a range of 6, not really worth it vs 3 turrets.
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I think the most important thing when it comes to dealing with mutas is scaling as the flock gets larger, MVP did it very well in some game i watched recently, but oftentimes the terran will make two turrets, ward off initial mutalisks but they won't add more turrets until the mutas are trashing the base.
It's a much smaller investment up front than mass turrets as well.
or you could maybe double your turret count as you move out or something.
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I've thought about this too and yes it is nice to not have mutas rampaging in my base when I'm trying to push. However all those mins in static defense only weakens the midgame army and you have one less marine upgrade to boot. I'm wondering if turrets in the mineral line that can be insta mass repair can hold mutas off well enough at least in early midgame. basically just enough defense so that when my timing push hits and mutas arrive in my main they don't decimate my eco and turn my push into an all in. building a lot of turrets is obviously good against mutas. It's just that many turrets at that early of a timing is what has me concerned.
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On October 19 2011 23:53 ElvisTek wrote:
And it is not a good idea to add a bunker in the mineral line with marines besides turrets? .. maybe?
nope, not only do bunkers tank up a lot more space, as mentioned, marines in bunkers only have 6 range compared to the +8 of upgraded turrets
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On October 19 2011 23:53 ElvisTek wrote:
And it is not a good idea to add a bunker in the mineral line with marines besides turrets? .. maybe?
where are you going to build it? definitely not in the middle of the mienral line,and there is not much space behind it.
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Turrets are awesome.
Adding extra turrets is very smart.
Look at how Zerg play has evolved.
6 months ago: "I don't want to build tons of spines because I need those drones to mine and that money for late game units"
Now: "Fuck getting attacked, I'm going to make 80 spines, and 80 extra drones because I can"
Dump those minerals. Make those turrets.
As a Zerg player, nothing pisses me off more than going muta and seeing a ton of turrets in the T's base. I'm always like "fucking noob", but deep down I'm sad because I know he's defending very well.
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I've updated the guide with a small section write at the end, for some people, please actually read the guide through thoroughly and of course i offer my apologies if I've have missed stuff out
but because some people have pointed them out i can make the ammendments
so thank you for your constructive criticisms and keep it coming
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Makes a lot of sense, mutas are worthless in a big fight. So if you deny their harass completely it should be easier to win games vs zerg.
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I noticed that in all your screenshots, you were going mech. Mech is pretty much the only time you will ever need a turret wall because of how immobile your army is and turrets are a mineral dump. However, against a meching Terran, Zergs might tend to favor more roaches and less mutas because of how cost effective your army is and they need something other than just lings to handle mech.
Mobility is not an issue for a roaching Zerg against mech Terran since speed roaches are faster than everything except BFH, which don't do anything against roaches.
If Terran goes marine tank, that many turrets means you will be very marine light and the more vulnerable your tanks are to being picked off and Zerg just rolls in with lots of lings/banelings are kills you. Lastly, if I make 8-10 mutas, force you to make about 10 turrets, my mutas have done their job, delay your push and give me map control.
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On October 20 2011 00:09 ILoveCoffee wrote:
I noticed that in all your screenshots, you were going mech. Mech is pretty much the only time you will ever need a turret wall because of how immobile your army is and turrets are a mineral dump. However, against a meching Terran, Zergs might tend to favor more roaches and less mutas because of how cost effective your army is and they need something other than just lings to handle mech.
Mobility is not an issue for a roaching Zerg against mech Terran since speed roaches are faster than everything except BFH, which don't do anything against roaches.
If Terran goes marine tank, that many turrets means you will be very marine light and the more vulnerable your tanks are to being picked off and Zerg just rolls in with lots of lings/banelings are kills you. Lastly, if I make 8-10 mutas, force you to make about 10 turrets, my mutas have done their job, delay your push and give me map control.
Hey I've played against you before im pretty sure you were using the muta portrait too!
anyway allow me to point out again since you seem to have overlooked it, as ive stated maybe 3-4 times already, you do not want to make more than 2 turrets for the number of mutas you've stated
and yes i do tend to favor mech more than marine tank but thats for another topic
as I've also stated, this kind of defense tends to work very well with mech, but it doesnt mean its useless when you marine tank
and of course if you go marine tank you are most likely trying to hit a timing which in this case, you should never make this amount of turrets
On October 20 2011 00:07 MrBitter wrote:
Turrets are awesome.
Adding extra turrets is very smart.
Look at how Zerg play has evolved.
6 months ago: "I don't want to build tons of spines because I need those drones to mine and that money for late game units"
Now: "Fuck getting attacked, I'm going to make 80 spines, and 80 extra drones because I can"
Dump those minerals. Make those turrets.
As a Zerg player, nothing pisses me off more than going muta and seeing a ton of turrets in the T's base. I'm always like "fucking noob", but deep down I'm sad because I know he's defending very well.
ah man i know exactly what you mean
P.S. i feel exactly the same way when i go to a zerg expo with BFH and see 5 spines -__-
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Does floating buildings over turrets make it so you can't target fire the turrets?
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On October 20 2011 00:19 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Does floating buildings over turrets make it so you can't target fire the turrets?
With a 3D engine like SC2s, it's virtually impossible to fully cover something like a turret, because every time the screen moves you see what's below you from a new angle.
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Great guide, been waiting long for someone to do this, so often I hear whine about mutas from T's and find out they built 1 turret in their mineral line and that is all.
Terrans make it out to be a "auto loss to build more than 2 turrets to protect something U KNOW DAT RIGHT!?!", while in fact making many more turrets will SAVE them money, not lose them money.
As was mentioned MVP have proven to be very good at this, and that is for the fact I can't believe even tons of pro terrans seem to have missed... BW styling it.
Look at pro games from BW, they make 4 turrets in a row to fend off 12 mutas there without hesitating, yes they are different games blabla, but obviously the 2 turrets in the mineral line and 1 at production facilities DOESN'T work out as can be seen in so so many pro ZvT games.
MVP got his BW experiance and know you just gotta have more turrets.
If T's start to get 4 turrets at mineral line and 4 on every production cluster they will likely take NO damage from muta.
Let us recap that.. spending 200*mining bases + 200*production cluster you don't have to worry about mutas anymore bluntly put.
On 3 base that is probably an extra 1000 mineral invest, which yes is quite a few minerals, but if the other guy got 20 mutas that he will do NO damage with harrash wise, and stops any attempt at counter attacking then it should be obvious it is bloody worth it.
as mentioned, key is of course to add on turrets as muta count rise, don't get 4x turrets on mineral lines and production cluster when your on 2base and he only got 10 mutas.
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On October 20 2011 00:19 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Does floating buildings over turrets make it so you can't target fire the turrets?
man you seem to come up with some of the whackiest ideas
they're whacky but also extremely intriguing to me, i will definitely try this out and update the guide accordingly
keep it coming!
On October 20 2011 00:22 MrBitter wrote:
With a 3D engine like SC2s, it's virtually impossible to fully cover something like a turret, because every time the screen moves you see what's below you from a new angle.
you're right, but then again if the person can't see the turrets to target them at first, he might have to adjust his camera (if he even thinks about it)
and if he does adjust his camera angles, thats more fire taken by the mutas
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You don't need the upgrade to ensure that the second turret is also shooting at the mutas and most of the time you want to protect your gas from being sniped. As in BW, intelligent placement of buildings can minimise the amount of muta damage. Very little has changed in this regard.
The main deterrence to mutas are marines. Specifically, upgraded marines. Turrets are there only to hold the first flock down for a while, any good player will realise they need marines to compete. Turrets should be a damage soak in the sense that they will force the mutas to take them out before engaging anything else. But common sense will tell you that if your enemy is going muta heavy it will not be long before marines and a thor far outstrip turrets in effectiveness even if you leave them in your base.
Actually the only good time to add excess turrets is just before you push out to limit damage to your base before he is forced to withdraw the mutas.
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On October 20 2011 00:07 MrBitter wrote:
Turrets are awesome.
Adding extra turrets is very smart.
Look at how Zerg play has evolved.
6 months ago: "I don't want to build tons of spines because I need those drones to mine and that money for late game units"
Now: "Fuck getting attacked, I'm going to make 80 spines, and 80 extra drones because I can"
Dump those minerals. Make those turrets.
As a Zerg player, nothing pisses me off more than going muta and seeing a ton of turrets in the T's base. I'm always like "fucking noob", but deep down I'm sad because I know he's defending very well.
indeed
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On October 19 2011 23:57 Savant wrote:
I'm wondering if turrets in the mineral line that can be insta mass repair can hold mutas off well enough at least in early midgame. basically just enough defense so that when my timing push hits and mutas arrive in my main they don't decimate my eco and turn my push into an all in.
if you have to come down to mass repairing you turret, its not that you're doing it wrong, but you're not exactly doing it right either
also mass turret repair actually leads to quite a few SCVs being killed
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On October 20 2011 00:30 Logick wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 23:57 Savant wrote:
I'm wondering if turrets in the mineral line that can be insta mass repair can hold mutas off well enough at least in early midgame. basically just enough defense so that when my timing push hits and mutas arrive in my main they don't decimate my eco and turn my push into an all in. if you have to come down to mass repairing you turret, its not that you're doing it wrong, but you're not exactly doing it right either also mass turret repair actually leads to quite a few SCVs being killed
It depends if you went for 3/3 on your marines.
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On October 20 2011 00:17 Logick wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:09 ILoveCoffee wrote:
I noticed that in all your screenshots, you were going mech. Mech is pretty much the only time you will ever need a turret wall because of how immobile your army is and turrets are a mineral dump. However, against a meching Terran, Zergs might tend to favor more roaches and less mutas because of how cost effective your army is and they need something other than just lings to handle mech.
Mobility is not an issue for a roaching Zerg against mech Terran since speed roaches are faster than everything except BFH, which don't do anything against roaches.
If Terran goes marine tank, that many turrets means you will be very marine light and the more vulnerable your tanks are to being picked off and Zerg just rolls in with lots of lings/banelings are kills you. Lastly, if I make 8-10 mutas, force you to make about 10 turrets, my mutas have done their job, delay your push and give me map control.
Hey I've played against you before im pretty sure you were using the muta portrait too! anyway allow me to point out again since you seem to have overlooked it, as ive stated maybe 3-4 times already, you do not want to make more than 2 turrets for the number of mutas you've stated and yes i do tend to favor mech more than marine tank but thats for another topic as I've also stated, this kind of defense tends to work very well with mech, but it doesnt mean its useless when you marine tank and of course if you go marine tank you are most likely trying to hit a timing which in this case, you should never make this amount of turrets Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 00:07 MrBitter wrote:
Turrets are awesome.
Adding extra turrets is very smart.
Look at how Zerg play has evolved.
6 months ago: "I don't want to build tons of spines because I need those drones to mine and that money for late game units"
Now: "Fuck getting attacked, I'm going to make 80 spines, and 80 extra drones because I can"
Dump those minerals. Make those turrets.
As a Zerg player, nothing pisses me off more than going muta and seeing a ton of turrets in the T's base. I'm always like "fucking noob", but deep down I'm sad because I know he's defending very well. ah man i know exactly what you mean P.S. i feel exactly the same way when i go to a zerg expo with BFH and see 5 spines -__-
I think I've played you too, I use a queen pix btw.
I am by no means saying this is a bad defence. In fact it is quite good at detering small to medium clumps of mutas. However, i re-read the OP and took another look at your turret placements. If they are all in a line. What will deter a Zerg from picking off 2 turrets, making a gap and fly in and out through it. Since your turrets are all in a line and your base is quite barren of defences.
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Another consideration is maps. Blizzard maps have a a lot of air space while most broodwar maps in the last few years feature edge to edge terrain so you could actually section off your base with an unavoidable turret wall.
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@coffee
normally with 2 turrets and no range upgrade, this would be a problem
however, with 4 turrets + ranged upgrade, not only are you taking fire earlier (because of the range increase) you're also taking more fire from more turrets
also as mentioned, by the time you take out 2 turrets, you would taken so much dmg maybe even losing a muta or 2, but also reinforcements would have arrived by then, and since i tend to favor mech heavy builds, my thor would probably have shot of a volley if i see you attempting to enter the base
what im trying to say is, by the time you even try to get into my base, you would have taken so much dmg that it would be cost-ineffective to have even attempted it in the first place
losing a muta that costs a 100 minerals as well as a 100 gas to take out a 100 mineral turret only is in no way a good trade
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100/100 for hi-sec tracking and only takes 80s to complete.
150/150 for building armor but takes 140s.
Infantry weapons/armor upgrades take 160s for +1, 190s for +2, 220s for +3.
Hi-sec seems like a more solid choice as you would only delay one of your upgrades for 80s. If you do your base setup right, you could have all your facilities covered by at least one turret. Also, if you put your facilities in a line rather than going for a simcity style box, you'll have less sides to worry about covering.
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so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;;
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i would rather upgrade my bio without pause i just leave like 10 marines and 1 medivac in main + 2-3 turrets and its fine
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I agree with scaling your turret numbers as you expand more and relative to their muta commitment and also sure get the hi-sec early if your going mech.
However I noticed that your gases are typically only partially covered in your pictures. Particularly when going mech you would want to have an emphasis on protecting your gases so maybe you should shift your turrets towards your gases. I have seen a fair number of korean terrans putting one or two turrets close to their gases, particularly when the gases are next to each other.
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On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;;
Yes, you maybe not noticed but like 90% of terrans are building just few turrets and always losing their stuff over and over again.
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On October 20 2011 01:38 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;; Yes, you maybe not noticed but like 90% of terrans are building just few turrets and always losing their stuff over and over again.
and its a good exchange for terran because zerg losing some muta
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There are quite a few fallacies in OP post:
1) The real cost of building 4 turrets instead of 2, is not 200. Its much higher, because of the oppurtunity cost of the turrets + opp cost of scv not mining.
2) Also that turret range upgrade is pretty terrible unless you go into late game as you need them for infantry, unless you want to build 3 ebays which just delays everything a lot. If you go mech and you know that the zerg will go muta heavy, sure getting that upgrade might be benefical.
3) So 2 turrets ´can hold back, like 7 mutas, but not 10+. But why sohuld you exactly build 4? Then you just loses if the zerg has 15+ mutas? THen you prob need. 6. But then you loses if the zerg has 20+... And we can continue this. Bottom line is that you as a terran cant predict how many mutas the zerg will have at time x, and investing too much in immobile infastructure means that you cant move out, as your army is too small. Yes, some times 4 will be the magical number, but other times it wont.
4) OP doesn't understand the main use behind the use of turrets: They are not meant to absolutely deny any amount of mutalisk. They are just meant to win your time untill your marin army gets back into position. I assume next your next question will be: how you move out of your base as a terran player, and this is the reason why MMA has been so succesfull with his drop play, because this forces the mutas to get oop, allowing the terran player to attack with tank marine.
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Watch MVP vs Zerg. His muta defense is the best.
Pro Terrans certainly make thte right number of turrets. It's only problematic when someone like Idra gets 30 mutas and you can't beat that with turrets and reinforcing marines. I.e he still has map control
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On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;;
its more than just that, it discusses why you should safely do so and talks about the pros and cons
I guess you could say that the overall gist is as what you mentioned but then again if i had just posted "get more turrets = win" that wouldnt really get my point across
@hlder
as for you good sir, Im pretty sure you did not read everything through but rather just skimmed through and looked for stuff to disagree upon
1. the opportunity cost for an ONE SCV mining is really such a big deal to you? if that is the case i assume that you dont scout at all during the early game because your worker wouldnt be mining?
3. this is why i assume you didnt read at all, because if u did read carefully you and some of the previous posts, you would know that 4 turrets vs 15 mutas, even if all the turrets fall, the amount of dead mutas as opposed to destroyed turrets that cost no guess is not even a good trade at all for the zerg player
not to mention that you should have some reinforcements to come assist the and deal with the mutas, so essentially the zerg player has lost mutas, taken heavy dmg and only killed 4 turrets ( assuming hes stupid enough to send 15 mutas into 4 turrets
4. i guess you disagree with my guide which is fine, but do not try to make the point that i do not understand the use of turrets, but rather you lack the understanding of the my guide
what i can say is this, try reading a few posts next time and actually read through the whole guide thoroughly before you go into criticize mode ( which i predicted too that someone would)
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Yes yes, clearly if they're ravaging your base it means you should have built more turrets. It doesn't mean you should make a ton regardless. If you're not going to move out, you should attempt to minimize turrets and use marines to defend. Also, when you're pushing, you try to push with so expediency so that the mutas can't ravage your base because they are needed for defense.
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I do this all the time...it's very good...more T players should do it but the key thing is only do this after three orbitals. Well, that is the rule of thumb i made - only start a turret ring like this in TvZ when getting on three orbitals.
And mid-late game yeah...if you are scanning/scouting that they are continuing mass muta ball play...making a fuck ton of missile turrets can win you so many games, otherwise you will be backstabbed till you die...
I dunno about writing a guide on "building turrets though." And from the pics, you can set up turret rings much more nearly and efficiently than in the pics i saw.
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On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;;
I could not tell you.
I thought it was something about get +1 range and instead of spamming CCs, you spam turrets.
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Obviously just upgrade missile turret splash.
I've been doing this a ton recently whenever Z goes for heavy heavy muta counts. I think this guide is useful though for players who are too afraid to build "too much static defense", and then are crushed by it. 20 mutas can take out a single turret pretty quickly, especially if the T player doesn't react and mass repair it.
This guide is more like a "when you know your opponent is making a ton of mutas, it's OK to build more turrets so you don't just lose all your production".
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On October 20 2011 02:24 Cycle wrote:
Obviously just upgrade missile turret splash.
I've been doing this a ton recently whenever Z goes for heavy heavy muta counts. I think this guide is useful though for players who are too afraid to build "too much static defense", and then are crushed by it. 20 mutas can take out a single turret pretty quickly, especially if the T player doesn't react and mass repair it.
This guide is more like a "when you know your opponent is making a ton of mutas, it's OK to build more turrets so you don't just lose all your production".
wat
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On October 20 2011 02:24 Cycle wrote:
Obviously just upgrade missile turret splash.
I've been doing this a ton recently whenever Z goes for heavy heavy muta counts. I think this guide is useful though for players who are too afraid to build "too much static defense", and then are crushed by it. 20 mutas can take out a single turret pretty quickly, especially if the T player doesn't react and mass repair it.
This guide is more like a "when you know your opponent is making a ton of mutas, it's OK to build more turrets so you don't just lose all your production".
turrets have a splash upgrade? man thats hipster
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On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;;
Not only that, but he's also negating getting upgrades. We all know how strong 3/3 marines are, but if you're using your engineering bay to crank out more, better turrets, the zerg is going to get ahead on upgrades which is going to cause problems much later in the game. There's just no cost analysis going on in this "guide".
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On October 20 2011 02:30 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:24 Cycle wrote:
Obviously just upgrade missile turret splash.
I've been doing this a ton recently whenever Z goes for heavy heavy muta counts. I think this guide is useful though for players who are too afraid to build "too much static defense", and then are crushed by it. 20 mutas can take out a single turret pretty quickly, especially if the T player doesn't react and mass repair it.
This guide is more like a "when you know your opponent is making a ton of mutas, it's OK to build more turrets so you don't just lose all your production". turrets have a splash upgrade? man thats hipster
Must be referring to the campaign upgrade?
As for dealing with Mutas, the turrets are static, the amount you need to defend everything equally with the power of 2+ turrets will reduce the marine count too much.
I'd rather be aggressive and force Zerg to the use the Mutas where I'm pushing or doing a drop.
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It was the same problem back in BW when Z went 2 hatch muta, sure a lot of turrets hold them back for a while but the best defense is to be aggressive and not let the mutas roam around in your base no? FlaSh "invented" his marinepush to make minimal amounts of turrets and keep the mutas out on the map instead of his base. Maybe something like that will happen in sc2?
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On October 20 2011 02:59 Pulimuli wrote:
It was the same problem back in BW when Z went 2 hatch muta, sure a lot of turrets hold them back for a while but the best defense is to be aggressive and not let the mutas roam around in your base no? FlaSh "invented" his marinepush to make minimal amounts of turrets and keep the mutas out on the map instead of his base. Maybe something like that will happen in sc2?
i think bomber already did this vs idra on metalopolis 8 rax reactor marines rally to the middle and muta had to fight while bomber took 3rd 4th bases
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On October 20 2011 03:05 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:59 Pulimuli wrote:
It was the same problem back in BW when Z went 2 hatch muta, sure a lot of turrets hold them back for a while but the best defense is to be aggressive and not let the mutas roam around in your base no? FlaSh "invented" his marinepush to make minimal amounts of turrets and keep the mutas out on the map instead of his base. Maybe something like that will happen in sc2? i think bomber already did this vs idra on metalopolis 8 rax reactor marines rally to the middle and muta had to fight while bomber took 3rd 4th bases
Yes, this is very common for tank/marine or bio play. Mech always relies on a larger turret count to defend mutas even when thors are out. It's not unusual to see mech players spam turrets.
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Really good read, gonna try it out, I hate mutas
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On October 20 2011 03:05 Thebbeuttiffulland wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:59 Pulimuli wrote:
It was the same problem back in BW when Z went 2 hatch muta, sure a lot of turrets hold them back for a while but the best defense is to be aggressive and not let the mutas roam around in your base no? FlaSh "invented" his marinepush to make minimal amounts of turrets and keep the mutas out on the map instead of his base. Maybe something like that will happen in sc2? i think bomber already did this vs idra on metalopolis 8 rax reactor marines rally to the middle and muta had to fight while bomber took 3rd 4th bases
I was advocating map position as counter for mutas for a long time.
However, zerg is much better at projecting power early on with the threat of banelings or just mass mass speedlings like stephano. So you have to go at least 4 rax worth of CS/Stim marines to push out around the muta timing.
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I don't usually need more then 2 turrets for 15 mutas. Unless I don't see it and miss the mass repair window. Also when you mass repair you need to keep clicking, don't just click once.
I don't see any pros building this many turrets. Late game I sometimes put 4 - 6 around my production facilities, especially if I have a lot of addons.
Not saying I have never lost by mutas picking off my turrets, just not all that often.
I have had good luck with 1 turret in main once I see mutas (mined out before they get enough to deal with mass repair). 1-2 in natural depending on number of mutas. If they are going for big muta ball 3 in at my 3rd. Works great, just keep an eye on that minimap.
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On October 20 2011 01:51 Hider wrote:
1) The real cost of building 4 turrets instead of 2, is not 200. Its much higher, because of the oppurtunity cost of the turrets + opp cost of scv not mining.
2) Also that turret range upgrade is pretty terrible unless you go into late game as you need them for infantry, unless you want to build 3 ebays which just delays everything a lot. If you go mech and you know that the zerg will go muta heavy, sure getting that upgrade might be benefical.
The first point doesn't make sense to me even though I see this errant reasoning a lot (esp re: mules vs scans) - the opportunity cost of something that costs 100 minerals is...100 minerals. I get the mining time thing, but the mining time lost to a turret is roughly 40 minerals. So, you're right I guess, it's 280 instead of 200, but I don't see how that changes the calculation in the OP since all the other things you have to rebuild after harassment also cost mining time (edit: or production time for add-ons).
Opportunity costs don't exist in a vacuum - the big question is 'what else would you get with that money'? Assuming you're rolling with smooth production out of the buildings you've already got (something I wouldn't sacrifice to get turrets unless it was a serious emergency), it seems that the alternative is to save for expansions/more production, and building those new buildings actually costs more mining time than the turrets. For a mech army in particular, you're bottlenecked on gas and limited in your mobility to defend a lot of bases - adding on more orbitals can only go so far. In those cases, I find turrets to be a fantastic mineral sink, since the opportunity 'cost' basically amounts to 'I won't be banking that money' (=good thing).
I agree on 2, though: +range should be reserved for heavy mech. I tend to go pure mech in TvZ and the extra range can have a huge effect. Most players are used to microing their mutas around un-upgraded turrets, so I see a lot of accidental overcommitments or attempts to fly to a corner that turns out to be unsafe. (edit) Finally, you get just a liiittle bit of extra time to help your mass-repair to be totally imba :D
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On October 20 2011 02:36 TheCerebrate wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;; Not only that, but he's also negating getting upgrades. We all know how strong 3/3 marines are, but if you're using your engineering bay to crank out more, better turrets, the zerg is going to get ahead on upgrades which is going to cause problems much later in the game. There's just no cost analysis going on in this "guide".
So, you'll lose because you're 3/2 instead of 3/3, and that 3 armor is *80* seconds late?
You don't need engineering bay time to MAKE turrets. Reading comprehension FTL.
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Agree, many times it is better to "mass turret" wall especially for maps where there is only 1 air entrance.
If you guys look at Flash from BW on the map Match point, he would make a huge huge turret wall about 3-4 turrets wide horizontally. It's almost insane but it means he has NO worry about defending from muta harass and no worry from having to rebuild turrets.
This is one reason why I like mech, you have a lot of minerals you can burn; you can easily rally in hellions (which produce really fast considering their value and supply) when you need to attack.
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On October 20 2011 04:16 Audemed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:36 TheCerebrate wrote:On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;; Not only that, but he's also negating getting upgrades. We all know how strong 3/3 marines are, but if you're using your engineering bay to crank out more, better turrets, the zerg is going to get ahead on upgrades which is going to cause problems much later in the game. There's just no cost analysis going on in this "guide". So, you'll lose because you're 3/2 instead of 3/3, and that 3 armor is *80* seconds late? You don't need engineering bay time to MAKE turrets. Reading comprehension FTL.
Excuse me? You're telling him he needs to learn on reading comprehension? I suggest you reread the OP.
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On October 20 2011 04:16 Audemed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 02:36 TheCerebrate wrote:On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;; Not only that, but he's also negating getting upgrades. We all know how strong 3/3 marines are, but if you're using your engineering bay to crank out more, better turrets, the zerg is going to get ahead on upgrades which is going to cause problems much later in the game. There's just no cost analysis going on in this "guide". So, you'll lose because you're 3/2 instead of 3/3, and that 3 armor is *80* seconds late? You don't need engineering bay time to MAKE turrets. Reading comprehension FTL.
You're not only behind on +3 armour, you're behind on +1 and +2. And while not as game changing as not having +1 atk for a +1 atk timing, +1/+2 armour is really important when fighting against mutas--especially as zergs are starting to realize that mutas can fight small groups of marines well.
It's pretty obvious he means using ebay time to get upgrades. Are you sure you should be criticizing reading comprehension.
Also @op
What are the benefits of putting 4 turrets (x2 for nat/main) and never being able to move out because you have 8 less marines compared to 1-2 per base and using a small group of marines to help defend with the turret, which can be used in your push. 4 immediate turrets per base is like sacrificing a fast 3rd OC because you can't split your marines up to defend.
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On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;;
More or less, yes.
It's made out bigger to try and show the significance of spamming turrets.
This needs replays so we can determine the OP's skill level.
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I will never get +1 turret range before 3/3 marines.
EDIT:
The guide is mostly about turret placement. Which is crucial.
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the best players are players who don't rely on turrets when the first couple of mutas come out but just position your marines where the mutas would come from and have the rest of ur army near your natural. That way you don't spend turrets too early. Spending turrets this early in the game can mean your 3rd expo is much much later. You will sooner or later need to start making turrets after 3rd base is up but having your marines positioned is better than wasting minerals on turrets. End of story. If you build turrets just to defend the first batch of mutas around 10 mins. That is bad.
This is coming from a GM.
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On October 20 2011 04:33 Validity wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 04:16 Audemed wrote:On October 20 2011 02:36 TheCerebrate wrote:On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;; Not only that, but he's also negating getting upgrades. We all know how strong 3/3 marines are, but if you're using your engineering bay to crank out more, better turrets, the zerg is going to get ahead on upgrades which is going to cause problems much later in the game. There's just no cost analysis going on in this "guide". So, you'll lose because you're 3/2 instead of 3/3, and that 3 armor is *80* seconds late? You don't need engineering bay time to MAKE turrets. Reading comprehension FTL. You're not only behind on +3 armour, you're behind on +1 and +2. And while not as game changing as not having +1 atk for a +1 atk timing, +1/+2 armour is really important when fighting against mutas--especially as zergs are starting to realize that mutas can fight small groups of marines well. It's pretty obvious he means using ebay time to get upgrades. Are you sure you should be criticizing reading comprehension. Also @op What are the benefits of putting 4 turrets (x2 for nat/main) and never being able to move out because you have 8 less marines compared to 1-2 per base and using a small group of marines to help defend with the turret, which can be used in your push. 4 immediate turrets per base is like sacrificing a fast 3rd OC because you can't split your marines up to defend.
How are you behind on +1/2, just by getting the +1 range? Nobody (including OP) is saying blindly throw up tons of turrets near your mineral lines and production facilities, but once the spire is scouted, and once the mutas are known, drop 4 turrets and deny that. 1200 mins for turrets in various spots to shut down 1200/1200 of mutas? I'll take that.
400 mins worth of turrets can defend against a muta flock more efficiently than 400m of marines, that's a given. Assuming that the 400 is "wasted because he didnt run into it" is analyzing the situation in a vacuum chamber, not looking at the possibility that your marines can get tore up, and have to pull your SCV's when he DOES bring mutas in. How much will THAT slow down 3/3?
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On October 20 2011 05:19 Audemed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 04:33 Validity wrote:On October 20 2011 04:16 Audemed wrote:On October 20 2011 02:36 TheCerebrate wrote:On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;; Not only that, but he's also negating getting upgrades. We all know how strong 3/3 marines are, but if you're using your engineering bay to crank out more, better turrets, the zerg is going to get ahead on upgrades which is going to cause problems much later in the game. There's just no cost analysis going on in this "guide". So, you'll lose because you're 3/2 instead of 3/3, and that 3 armor is *80* seconds late? You don't need engineering bay time to MAKE turrets. Reading comprehension FTL. You're not only behind on +3 armour, you're behind on +1 and +2. And while not as game changing as not having +1 atk for a +1 atk timing, +1/+2 armour is really important when fighting against mutas--especially as zergs are starting to realize that mutas can fight small groups of marines well. It's pretty obvious he means using ebay time to get upgrades. Are you sure you should be criticizing reading comprehension. Also @op What are the benefits of putting 4 turrets (x2 for nat/main) and never being able to move out because you have 8 less marines compared to 1-2 per base and using a small group of marines to help defend with the turret, which can be used in your push. 4 immediate turrets per base is like sacrificing a fast 3rd OC because you can't split your marines up to defend. How are you behind on +1/2, just by getting the +1 range? Nobody (including OP) is saying blindly throw up tons of turrets near your mineral lines and production facilities, but once the spire is scouted, and once the mutas are known, drop 4 turrets and deny that. 1200 mins for turrets in various spots to shut down 1200/1200 of mutas? I'll take that. 400 mins worth of turrets can defend against a muta flock more efficiently than 400m of marines, that's a given. Assuming that the 400 is "wasted because he didnt run into it" is analyzing the situation in a vacuum chamber, not looking at the possibility that your marines can get tore up, and have to pull your SCV's when he DOES bring mutas in. How much will THAT slow down 3/3?
Because you're getting +1 range instead of +1 armour. You need +1 armour to get +2 and +3. I don't understand where the confusion is about "if you are researching b, you are not researching a, therefore a is delayed (and a's future upgrades are delayed)"
Sure, and a fast pf at your natural defends a roach ling all in. But it's terribly inefficient and likewise, you aren't going to be able to push and secure a third (have to pick one or the other) if you're spending 800-1200 on turrets alone.
I have nothing against periodically adding turrets as the muta flock grows, but planting down 8 turrets when you scout muta seems inefficient and excessive when you can simply use the marines you already have to defend fine with 1-2 turrets per base
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Some numbers on turrets vs mutas without upgrades.
1 Turret firing vs 8 Mutas: 1 Turret dies (100/0), 1 Muta dies (100/100)
1 Turret firing vs 16 Mutas: 1 Turret dies (100/0), 0 Muta dies (0/0)
2 Turrets firing vs 8 Mutas: 2 Turrets die (200/0), 4 Mutas die (400/400)
2 Turrets firing vs 16 Mutas: 2 Turrets die (200/0), 2 Mutas die (200/200)
2 Turrets firing vs 24 Mutas: 2 Turrets die (200/0), 1 Muta dies (100/100)
2 Turrets firing vs 32 Mutas: 2 Turrets die (200/0), 0 Muta dies (0/0)
So basically...if the Muta count grows above 16 it doesn't matter how many turrets are in your base. If the Zerg is allowed to engage each Turret individually, with perfect micro they can kill 16 turrets with 0 Muta losses. The only way you can effectively repel Muta flocks greater than 16 is by doubling your turret density.
If Muta ball is between 0-15, then you need 1 turrets worth of coverage for perfect defense
If Muta ball is between 16-32, then you need 2 turrets worth of coverage for perfect defense
If Muta ball is greater then 32, then you need 3 turrets worth of coverage for perfect defense (AKA: At that point, turrets are no longer cost effective to trade against Muta harass. So you also need to bolster your harassment defense with one of the following: 1. threaten a base trade using an army that has strong anti-air capabilities 2. devote some SCVs to defense with repair 3. devote some marines to defense with stim)
Here's some numbers with turret range. FYI, +1 turret range increases the amount of area covered by a turret by about 25%.
Without +1 Turret range, 2 turrets need to be placed within 4 hexes of each other in order to create double coverage.
With +1 Turret range, 2 turrets need to be placed within 5 hexes of each other in order to create double coverage.
Without +1 Turret range, 4 turrets need to be placed within 6 hexes of each other in order to create double coverage.
With +1 Turret range, 4 turrets need to be placed within 7 hexes of each other in order to create double coverage.
As a general rule of thumb, 1 hex of diagonal movement roughly equals 1.5 hexes of vertical/horizontal movement. So if you want to create L-shaped formations to minimize splash you need to place them even closer together.
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Ill just add, as per my previous post, that if you place 2 standard turrets in an L-shape (u need building grid turned on to see wot youre doing) then they can take down 5-6 mutas.
TXX (T = a 2x2 turret, X = 2x2 empty ground)
XXT
or
TX
XX
XT
Try it with the unit tester and u will see, no matter what direction the mutas come from, 5 or 6 will die.
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IMO fast repair+maybe having some marines in your base is better than this and the only time you want to spam that many turrets is when you are maxed and just want every unit to be with your army(maybe with mech if you have a crapton of minerals).
Zerg can simply tech switch if you get this many turrets initially and he can even go broodlords later if he went for air upgrades. Also your mid-game pushes are extremely important since they mostly determine how many bases Z has going to the lategame. You dont want to have 2-3 safe bases vs zerg's 4-6 just because you weakened your pushes by putting your money into turrets.
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After watching so many games seeing great zergs like Idra totally trash some of the best terrans in the game with his muta harass, I've always wondered why more terrans dont do this.
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In the recent GSL TvZ, a lot of the terrans have been turtling with a lot of turrets, I feel it's a good idea.
But the problem is upgrading them, those players are not doing it, unless you're willing to lay down a 3rd engbay, marines upgrades will always have priority, whatever the scenario is, over range and +2 building armor.
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Concerning not sending 4 scvs at a time to build turrets, I don't see how this is worse than having 1 scv build 4 in a row. The lost mining time will be the same, save the minimal time it takes for them to go behind the mineral line to build. Queing up 1 or more turrets on 1 scv is a lot worse for your economy as you are binding up the minerals requierd to build them in advance, when you instead could've used them to something else and built the turret when the last one is done.
Edit: Just a minor thing, this is theorycrafting and given you need 4 turrets, and has nothing to do with building up your defences gradually. Also if anybody disagrees or have agrumetns for other methods they are of course welcome.
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On October 20 2011 06:23 Entteri wrote:
IMO fast repair+maybe having some marines in your base is better than this and the only time you want to spam that many turrets is when you are maxed and just want every unit to be with your army(maybe with mech if you have a crapton of minerals).
i have to disagree with the fast repair because we all know that even fast repair vs 10-15 mutas you still lose SCVs, and the point of turreting up carefully is to avoid these kinds of losses
On October 20 2011 05:13 gfever wrote:
the best players are players who don't rely on turrets when the first couple of mutas come out but just position your marines where the mutas would come from and have the rest of ur army near your natural. That way you don't spend turrets too early. Spending turrets this early in the game can mean your 3rd expo is much much later. You will sooner or later need to start making turrets after 3rd base is up but having your marines positioned is better than wasting minerals on turrets. End of story. If you build turrets just to defend the first batch of mutas around 10 mins. That is bad.
This is coming from a GM.
this is partially true but alas i have to disagree.. from watching GSL and MLG you can already see how the lack of turrets but with increased marine production while lots of mutas are out tends to lead to a lot of stuff getting sniped
even the koreans arent infallible to this kinds of things which can be seen a lot especially in the GSL, ive seen countless times the players running their marines back and forth or getting them sniped repeatedly by 15-16 mutas because they just didnt have the proper defense
as for that last line that i bolded, i dont recall putting anything like that in the guide, as i mentioned proper scouting is involved before making such an investment
On October 20 2011 06:41 Xodushai wrote:
Concerning not sending 4 scvs at a time to build turrets, I don't see how this is worse than having 1 scv build 4 in a row. The lost mining time will be the same, save the minimal time it takes for them to go behind the mineral line to build. Queing up 1 or more turrets on 1 scv is a lot worse for your economy as you are binding up the minerals requierd to build them in advance, when you instead could've used them to something else and built the turret when the last one is done.
Edit: Just a minor thing, this is theorycrafting and given you need 4 turrets, and has nothing to do with building up your defences gradually. Also if anybody disagrees or have agrumetns for other methods they are of course welcome.
i dont believe you understand quite fully how much worse it is to send 4 SCVs to make 4 turrets immediately compared to having 1 SCV build 1 turret with 1 Qed
essentially with the latter, you have 200 minerals (used) and more income at X point in time
with the former, its like dropping a CC down instead but with 4SCVs not mining.. basically you have binded 400 minerals down to what might have been an overcommitment to turrets ( as i mentioned you want to gradually build up your turrets based on what you think you opponent is going for). not to mention that at X point in time your income would be much lower and you would have less unit production than you would if you had built 1 turret at a time
On October 20 2011 06:28 MrCon wrote:
In the recent GSL TvZ, a lot of the terrans have been turtling with a lot of turrets, I feel it's a good idea.
But the problem is upgrading them, those players are not doing it, unless you're willing to lay down a 3rd engbay, marines upgrades will always have priority, whatever the scenario is, over range and +2 building armor.
this is a mentality issue, because most of the times pro players even the koreans in the GSL believe that they have the necessary set of skills to deal with muta harass but at the same time the players doing the muta harass believe they have the necessary skills to be able to harass well
its an opportunity cost thing too, which often times leads to some of the following chains:
- do I wait 80 seconds and some minerals more on 1 of my upgrades to get safer defense or do i want to just beef up my marines ASAP
if yes:
- you will be definitely lose marines here and there trying to prevent muta harass
- you will lose some structures (depots / addons) and even SCVs some times before your marines get to the mutas
- in most cases you end up with a lot of forced stims and low medvac energy
if no:
- yes you will have a higher marine count
- you can hit off a nice timing if planned well and possibly take the game
remember that the time taken for + 2 armor is a lot more than the time taken for + 1 range, and i also point out that there is hardly ever the need for + 2 armor, its just there for numbers and for those who want to go the extra smile to be safe
On October 20 2011 04:33 Validity wrote:
Also @op
What are the benefits of putting 4 turrets (x2 for nat/main) and never being able to move out because you have 8 less marines compared to 1-2 per base and using a small group of marines to help defend with the turret, which can be used in your push. 4 immediate turrets per base is like sacrificing a fast 3rd OC because you can't split your marines up to defend.
assuming you had only built 1 turret in the middle of your mineral line to defend against muta harass
and assuming they had gotten about 14-16 mutas, you're going to have less SCVs because you know for a fact that they can just fly in and rape that 1 turret (who are we kidding here we've seen top level zergs do this countless times), and after that just go to town on SCVs
not only do u lose the 100 minerals for that 1 turret, but even if you had mass repaired it you would have lost SCVs
losing SCVs leads to lower income and ultimately less marines
and even if you did have marines to defend as mentioned by some already, a lot of zergs know that small grps of 8 marines can easily be taken out by mutas and they have qualms about doing it either
not to mention the fact that by the time your marines get stimmed to go defend your mineral line the dmg has been done (unless they are standing on the mineral line which i doubt so) as well as the dmg on your stimmed marines which will take up more medivac energy
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Turrets are fine when you rely on mecha, because thors are slow as sh**, but they're not here to repulse 20+ mutalisks, as a planetary fortress is not here to defend against 20+ roaches. Both a just preventing little runbies (like 12 zerglings or 4 mutalisks) from happening, forcing the opponent not to do harassment but commited attacks, leaving his base unguarded.
My premium reaction when seeing 20 mutalisks in my mineral line is to make the SCVs go far far away with mutas on their tail, box my whole army and go f***ing kill the zerg.
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Love you guide. I don't understand why people are putting up so much of a fight. 1 turret is 2 marines in minerals, and 0 supply.
Yeah when your going for a timing push, like you said, not really efficient. But when you going for the long macro game, having heavy turret use will pay off greatly. It forces Zerg to build more units rather then relying on the Mutas to delay the push in order to get their units.
I also noted that in the most recent TvZ with Korean pros i have been noting heavier Turret use.
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On October 20 2011 03:33 buckKeefe wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 01:51 Hider wrote:
1) The real cost of building 4 turrets instead of 2, is not 200. Its much higher, because of the oppurtunity cost of the turrets + opp cost of scv not mining.
2) Also that turret range upgrade is pretty terrible unless you go into late game as you need them for infantry, unless you want to build 3 ebays which just delays everything a lot. If you go mech and you know that the zerg will go muta heavy, sure getting that upgrade might be benefical.
The first point doesn't make sense to me even though I see this errant reasoning a lot (esp re: mules vs scans) - the opportunity cost of something that costs 100 minerals is...100 minerals. I get the mining time thing, but the mining time lost to a turret is roughly 40 minerals. So, you're right I guess, it's 280 instead of 200, but I don't see how that changes the calculation in the OP since all the other things you have to rebuild after harassment also cost mining time (edit: or production time for add-ons). Opportunity costs don't exist in a vacuum - the big question is 'what else would you get with that money'? Assuming you're rolling with smooth production out of the buildings you've already got (something I wouldn't sacrifice to get turrets unless it was a serious emergency), it seems that the alternative is to save for expansions/more production, and building those new buildings actually costs more mining time than the turrets. For a mech army in particular, you're bottlenecked on gas and limited in your mobility to defend a lot of bases - adding on more orbitals can only go so far. In those cases, I find turrets to be a fantastic mineral sink, since the opportunity 'cost' basically amounts to 'I won't be banking that money' (=good thing). I agree on 2, though: +range should be reserved for heavy mech. I tend to go pure mech in TvZ and the extra range can have a huge effect. Most players are used to microing their mutas around un-upgraded turrets, so I see a lot of accidental overcommitments or attempts to fly to a corner that turns out to be unsafe. (edit) Finally, you get just a liiittle bit of extra time to help your mass-repair to be totally imba :D
Your def. correct in that opp cost dont exist in a vacuum.
The reason I talk about oppurtuniy cost here is that, you could use the minerals to 1) get a quicker expansion, which increases your economy exponontially (this could possilbe make the real value of 1 turret worth much much more than 100 minerals), 2) build more marines, which allows you to put more pressure on the zerg or just have a mobile defense. Assuming you use too much on immobile defense and the zerg realizes this, he is free to get a quick hive tech and mass droning without protecting his expansions.
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I agree with the logic here with all of the turrets, but if you arent going for a timing push, isn't it more effective to split your marines into thirds to defend your bases as you get your turrets up, and delay your turrets a lot longer, as the marines can help you turtle incredibly well. MVP and Bomber do this a lot, keeping 20 or so marines with 2 medivacs by each base so they can stim, which is much scarier to zergs than turrets imo. This use of the majority of your marines in muta defense allows for those 400 resources to then go into another expo, and turrets later.
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On October 20 2011 07:58 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 03:33 buckKeefe wrote:On October 20 2011 01:51 Hider wrote:
1) The real cost of building 4 turrets instead of 2, is not 200. Its much higher, because of the oppurtunity cost of the turrets + opp cost of scv not mining.
2) Also that turret range upgrade is pretty terrible unless you go into late game as you need them for infantry, unless you want to build 3 ebays which just delays everything a lot. If you go mech and you know that the zerg will go muta heavy, sure getting that upgrade might be benefical.
The first point doesn't make sense to me even though I see this errant reasoning a lot (esp re: mules vs scans) - the opportunity cost of something that costs 100 minerals is...100 minerals. I get the mining time thing, but the mining time lost to a turret is roughly 40 minerals. So, you're right I guess, it's 280 instead of 200, but I don't see how that changes the calculation in the OP since all the other things you have to rebuild after harassment also cost mining time (edit: or production time for add-ons). Opportunity costs don't exist in a vacuum - the big question is 'what else would you get with that money'? Assuming you're rolling with smooth production out of the buildings you've already got (something I wouldn't sacrifice to get turrets unless it was a serious emergency), it seems that the alternative is to save for expansions/more production, and building those new buildings actually costs more mining time than the turrets. For a mech army in particular, you're bottlenecked on gas and limited in your mobility to defend a lot of bases - adding on more orbitals can only go so far. In those cases, I find turrets to be a fantastic mineral sink, since the opportunity 'cost' basically amounts to 'I won't be banking that money' (=good thing). I agree on 2, though: +range should be reserved for heavy mech. I tend to go pure mech in TvZ and the extra range can have a huge effect. Most players are used to microing their mutas around un-upgraded turrets, so I see a lot of accidental overcommitments or attempts to fly to a corner that turns out to be unsafe. (edit) Finally, you get just a liiittle bit of extra time to help your mass-repair to be totally imba :D Your def. correct in that opp cost dont exist in a vacuum. The reason I talk about oppurtuniy cost here is that, you could use the minerals to 1) get a quicker expansion, which increases your economy exponontially (this could possilbe make the real value of 1 turret worth much much more than 100 minerals), 2) build more marines, which allows you to put more pressure on the zerg or just have a mobile defense. Assuming you use too much on immobile defense and the zerg realizes this, he is free to get a quick hive tech and mass droning without protecting his expansions.
the problem is youre building an extra expansion against a zerg.. so even if you get up that CC and you fly it over and transfer SCVs as well.. can you defend it well against ling runbys or muta harass efficiently? can you protect all your SCVs from mutas? imagine a map like Tal'Darim Altar where take the third after u destroy the rocks
Mutas can fly back and forth between your third and main
can you honestly keep enough marines on both sides to prevent the muta harass?
will you be able to move out of your base? these are the problems
sure you can get an early third which is the opportunity cost when making turrets.. the other thing is whether you can defend it
On October 20 2011 08:01 ComBro1 wrote:
isn't it more effective to split your marines into thirds to defend your bases as you get your turrets up, and delay your turrets a lot longer, as the marines can help you turtle incredibly well. MVP and Bomber do this a lot, keeping 20 or so marines with 2 medivacs by each base so they can stim, which is much scarier to zergs than turrets imo.
this is true but the problem is more players dont do this often enough
and also there is the thing about forced stims
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I don't know about you, but my marine upgrades are waaaay too important to be delayed by building armor and the like, I would only upgrade them after I'm 3-3 with my marines or I have a third ebay.
When you're in turtle mode, leaving rines spread out in vulnerable areas is much better then building the turrets earlier, with tanks and bunkers there's almost no way for them to break the front.
Grab as many TvZ replays from Bomber as you can, he has some of the best turret timing/placement that I've seen (with a fast third).
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On October 20 2011 02:03 Logick wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 01:25 KawaiiRice wrote:
so... I've read through everything twice and am I correct in saying that the only thing this guide says is to build more than 1 turret and get range upgrade? Lol o_O; uhmmm... o_O;; its more than just that, it discusses why you should safely do so and talks about the pros and cons I guess you could say that the overall gist is as what you mentioned but then again if i had just posted "get more turrets = win" that wouldnt really get my point across @hlder as for you good sir, Im pretty sure you did not read everything through but rather just skimmed through and looked for stuff to disagree upon 1. the opportunity cost for an ONE SCV mining is really such a big deal to you? if that is the case i assume that you dont scout at all during the early game because your worker wouldnt be mining? 3. this is why i assume you didnt read at all, because if u did read carefully you and some of the previous posts, you would know that 4 turrets vs 15 mutas, even if all the turrets fall, the amount of dead mutas as opposed to destroyed turrets that cost no guess is not even a good trade at all for the zerg player not to mention that you should have some reinforcements to come assist the and deal with the mutas, so essentially the zerg player has lost mutas, taken heavy dmg and only killed 4 turrets ( assuming hes stupid enough to send 15 mutas into 4 turrets 4. i guess you disagree with my guide which is fine, but do not try to make the point that i do not understand the use of turrets, but rather you lack the understanding of the my guide what i can say is this, try reading a few posts next time and actually read through the whole guide thoroughly before you go into criticize mode ( which i predicted too that someone would)
1) Read my prev. post.
3) The numbers are not the point. They were just used as examples. The point is that you cant predict how many mutas he will have in 1 minut. Soem tiems he will have 7-8, some times he will go up to 15-20. Some times he will stop at 15-20, or other times he will get 40. Trying to overproduce turrets can be really costly (like if you expect that he will have between 7 and 16 mutas attacking your base in 1 minut, how many turrets do you build?).
4) I explained why you lacked the understanding. Do you understand my arguments?
There is one exception to "my" rule of how turrets should be used. And that is when your just planning on never attacking and playing some kind of split map strategy. This is when having a mobile army compared to a immobile army isn't very benefical in the midgame. THis is probably why Avilo agrees with overproducing turrets as he plays an extremely defensive style. I do that style occiasionally as well, but my problem with your OP is that you dont think of building turrets in relation the strategy you uses. Most terrans will go for some kind of 2base/3base timing, and you simply cant do an efficient timing attack if you have to skip infantry upgrade and overproduce turrets.
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On October 20 2011 08:12 Logick wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 07:58 Hider wrote:On October 20 2011 03:33 buckKeefe wrote:On October 20 2011 01:51 Hider wrote:
1) The real cost of building 4 turrets instead of 2, is not 200. Its much higher, because of the oppurtunity cost of the turrets + opp cost of scv not mining.
2) Also that turret range upgrade is pretty terrible unless you go into late game as you need them for infantry, unless you want to build 3 ebays which just delays everything a lot. If you go mech and you know that the zerg will go muta heavy, sure getting that upgrade might be benefical.
The first point doesn't make sense to me even though I see this errant reasoning a lot (esp re: mules vs scans) - the opportunity cost of something that costs 100 minerals is...100 minerals. I get the mining time thing, but the mining time lost to a turret is roughly 40 minerals. So, you're right I guess, it's 280 instead of 200, but I don't see how that changes the calculation in the OP since all the other things you have to rebuild after harassment also cost mining time (edit: or production time for add-ons). Opportunity costs don't exist in a vacuum - the big question is 'what else would you get with that money'? Assuming you're rolling with smooth production out of the buildings you've already got (something I wouldn't sacrifice to get turrets unless it was a serious emergency), it seems that the alternative is to save for expansions/more production, and building those new buildings actually costs more mining time than the turrets. For a mech army in particular, you're bottlenecked on gas and limited in your mobility to defend a lot of bases - adding on more orbitals can only go so far. In those cases, I find turrets to be a fantastic mineral sink, since the opportunity 'cost' basically amounts to 'I won't be banking that money' (=good thing). I agree on 2, though: +range should be reserved for heavy mech. I tend to go pure mech in TvZ and the extra range can have a huge effect. Most players are used to microing their mutas around un-upgraded turrets, so I see a lot of accidental overcommitments or attempts to fly to a corner that turns out to be unsafe. (edit) Finally, you get just a liiittle bit of extra time to help your mass-repair to be totally imba :D Your def. correct in that opp cost dont exist in a vacuum. The reason I talk about oppurtuniy cost here is that, you could use the minerals to 1) get a quicker expansion, which increases your economy exponontially (this could possilbe make the real value of 1 turret worth much much more than 100 minerals), 2) build more marines, which allows you to put more pressure on the zerg or just have a mobile defense. Assuming you use too much on immobile defense and the zerg realizes this, he is free to get a quick hive tech and mass droning without protecting his expansions. the problem is youre building an extra expansion against a zerg.. so even if you get up that CC and you fly it over and transfer SCVs as well.. can you defend it well against ling runbys or muta harass efficiently? can you protect all your SCVs from mutas? imagine a map like Tal'Darim Altar where take the third after u destroy the rocks Mutas can fly back and forth between your third and main can you honestly keep enough marines on both sides to prevent the muta harass? will you be able to move out of your base? these are the problems sure you can get an early third which is the opportunity cost when making turrets.. the other thing is whether you can defend it
I kinda tried to explain this is in my first post. Yes you spread out your marines in a defensive position. The zerg cant really fly between your 3rd and main, thats why too risky.
ANd as I said you move out by dropping forcing the zergs mutas to defend the drop, or you can leave some mariens back to defend and move out. He will soon be forced to go back and defend with mutas. Then you can reinfornce with your "defensive" marines.
I agree that this isn't an easy thing. For some plat-diamond players overproducing turrets might be the easiest thing to do. But if you have good mechanics /multitasking, this isn't optimal.
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@ hlder dear god thats why its clearly stated in the the guide not to bother on heavy defense if youre going for a timing
its stated there like 3 times at LEAST
so its apparent that you dont read through at all
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with ops layout on most maps he showed, the zerg can just ball his mutas up and run them along the end of the line deeper into the base. he is assuming the deterrent is enough for the mutas to just completely back away/unable to engage the turrets. but he isnt dealing with mutas just running straight through the line behind the base.
this is why most people build a lot more turrets than the OP is claiming you can get away with, everywhere needs to be protected because the mutas can just go past the edge of the turrets, get shot twice, then have a free reign over the back of the base.
if you are advocating building these turret rings all around you're base (a massive investment) then the zerg just has a new way to deal with them, engage them side on. only getting shot by 2 turrets at a time while plowing through them in 2 shots a peice.
this is why turrets are (in the late game ) built in doubles or triplets. this is a 2 fold bonus. 1 they cant avoid half youre turrets while taking out 1/2 anywhere from 2- 6 turrets might need to be engaged at a time. and with the turrets closer together they are more likely to attack the same targets, giving you easymode focusfire on the mutas.
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On October 20 2011 08:17 Logick wrote:
@ hlder dear god thats why its clearly stated in the the guide not to bother on heavy defense if youre going for a timing
its stated there like 3 times at LEAST
so its apparent that you dont read through at all
Its a pretty bad structued OP as the head lines makes little sense.
Anyway all I have seen is this:
"this is by no means a form of deterrence off 1 base".
I actually said 2base/3base, and since you relate this turret defense to GSL, where 9/10 tvz games involes the terran player doing a 3 base timing, it actually seems very weird that you dont think your strategy is viable in GSL..
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On October 20 2011 08:17 turdburgler wrote:
with ops layout on most maps he showed, the zerg can just ball his mutas up and run them along the end of the line deeper into the base. he is assuming the deterrent is enough for the mutas to just completely back away/unable to engage the turrets. but he isnt dealing with mutas just running straight through the line behind the base.
this is why most people build a lot more turrets than the OP is claiming you can get away with, everywhere needs to be protected because the mutas can just go past the edge of the turrets, get shot twice, then have a free reign over the back of the base.
if you are advocating building these turret rings all around you're base (a massive investment) then the zerg just has a new way to deal with them, engage them side on. only getting shot by 2 turrets at a time while plowing through them in 2 shots a peice.
this is why turrets are (in the late game ) built in doubles or triplets. this is a 2 fold bonus. 1 they cant avoid half youre turrets while taking out 1/2 anywhere from 2- 6 turrets might need to be engaged at a time. and with the turrets closer together they are more likely to attack the same targets, giving you easymode focusfire on the mutas.
This is also true, however I assumed that OP will overproduce turrets through all the game. Like if he gets 4 turrets when the possible highest amount of mutas the zerg can have at that time is 10, and then he will get like 10 turrets in the main if the zerg can have 20-25 mutas.
As I said prev. this can only work if your trying a split map strategy.
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What league are you in Mr.Gold?
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On October 20 2011 08:17 Logick wrote:
@ hlder dear god thats why its clearly stated in the the guide not to bother on heavy defense if youre going for a timing
its stated there like 3 times at LEAST
so its apparent that you dont read through at all
just accept your failure
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On October 20 2011 08:24 abSTRAkt wrote:
What league are you in Mr.Gold?
this is a really big question, but even if you were masters it doesn't matter @ OP
you can't get away with spending so much money on useless turrets like this vs good zergs. Money that you spend on turrets + the range upgrade slows down everything youre doing. It's apparent that you're winning games enough to feel comfortable enough to make a guide on TL. Maybe this will help players increase their winrate vs zergs as well, I don't know. But doing unrefined things like this will screw you over against a good player.
edit: my posting seems to always be terribly incoherent and goes around everywhere.. why did i even quote abstrakt lol
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On October 20 2011 09:09 KawaiiRice wrote:this is a really big question, but even if you were masters it doesn't matter @ OP you can't get away with spending so much money on useless turrets like this vs good zergs. Money that you spend on turrets + the range upgrade slows down everything youre doing. It's apparent that you're winning games enough to feel comfortable enough to make a guide on TL. Maybe this will help players increase their winrate vs zergs as well, I don't know. But doing unrefined things like this will screw you over against a good player. edit: my posting seems to always be terribly incoherent and goes around everywhere.. why did i even quote abstrakt lol
How would you counter mass muta strategies like Idra's?
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On October 20 2011 09:54 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 09:09 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 20 2011 08:24 abSTRAkt wrote:
What league are you in Mr.Gold? this is a really big question, but even if you were masters it doesn't matter @ OP you can't get away with spending so much money on useless turrets like this vs good zergs. Money that you spend on turrets + the range upgrade slows down everything youre doing. It's apparent that you're winning games enough to feel comfortable enough to make a guide on TL. Maybe this will help players increase their winrate vs zergs as well, I don't know. But doing unrefined things like this will screw you over against a good player. edit: my posting seems to always be terribly incoherent and goes around everywhere.. why did i even quote abstrakt lol How would you counter mass muta strategies like Idra's?
Maybe the Dong-whatever guy is a better example...it's really about timing. Some people claim to play a management game, but the truth is that every Terran has to rely on timings to beat the Zerg. You can be aggressive and exploit the need to grab a first third with marines/hellions, or you could take the opportunity to grab a fast third yourself (this is in itself a timing strategy) and hold with tons of marines.
Just like you can't blindly overmake turrets, bear in mind the zerg cannot blindly overmake mutas. Having upgraded marines around + medivacs (of course) is not only going to repel mutas, it's going to force him to make LESS mutas because 1. mutas suck against marines and 2. you need gas for banes = less mutas.
You CAN get away with a mech + mass turret style in BW because there's no airspace behind the main in some maps and the zerg cannot mass drones as quickly. Also it deters drops which is painful for mech to deal with. Turtle, move forward, clear zerg out, take bases, repeat...it only works in BW.
I guess the main point is that why overmake turrets (say 2 per base on 2 bases) when you can have 8 marines for that cost that can be used as offensive or defensive units?
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Turrets cost no food.
The best is a combination of both to mitigate food not being with your push and turret immobility..
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If you go a lot more turrets in the early game just to be safe off 2 bases then in turn you're losing the ability to go out. If your plan is to be defensive and turtle then a few more turrets should help, but if you plan on moving out with 8 less marines than you could have had you're gonna get cleaned up easily. Also, after a while, bar building upgrades and turret upgrades, 3 turrets at each position won't cut it, you'll need a lot more against upgraded mutas. However, this delays bio upgrades which are also super important.
There's also no telling on how many mutas they decide to go. If you invest heavily in turrets and they see this then they'll probably just end up droning really hard and expanding realizing they're safe. It's just better to slowly add on more turrets and get upgrades for bio/mech.
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In your guide, I see you are getting +1 range before your infantry upgrades... As much as you seem to love turrets, I think thats a little overkill...
Sorry, but this guide is pretty useless. Every terran knows that you need turrets against mutas, and I think everyone knew that as the muta clump gets bigger, you need more turrets...
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On October 20 2011 09:54 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 09:09 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 20 2011 08:24 abSTRAkt wrote:
What league are you in Mr.Gold? this is a really big question, but even if you were masters it doesn't matter @ OP you can't get away with spending so much money on useless turrets like this vs good zergs. Money that you spend on turrets + the range upgrade slows down everything youre doing. It's apparent that you're winning games enough to feel comfortable enough to make a guide on TL. Maybe this will help players increase their winrate vs zergs as well, I don't know. But doing unrefined things like this will screw you over against a good player. edit: my posting seems to always be terribly incoherent and goes around everywhere.. why did i even quote abstrakt lol How would you counter mass muta strategies like Idra's?
He cant 
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im not really sure i understand why there needed to be a guide for this.. from what i understand, youre just building more turrets, placing them better, and upgrading them.. so.. if the Zerg is going a really heavy mutalisk style, by the time that mutas can basically fly in, and 1-shot turrets, youre just going to be losing more and more money if youre making more and more turrets. i think that as a terran, if you scout spire tech, instead of investing into a ton of turrets, youd probably be better off investing into vikings because odds are, the zerg will transition into broodlord tech later on in the game, where viking numbers are crucial to have. thats just imo anyways. if im completely missing the point of 'build more turrets, upgrade turrets, dont place them like a moron' then fill me in, please.
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On October 20 2011 11:41 kofman wrote:
In your guide, I see you are getting +1 range before your infantry upgrades... As much as you seem to love turrets, I think thats a little overkill...
Sorry, but this guide is pretty useless. Every terran knows that you need turrets against mutas, and I think everyone knew that as the muta clump gets bigger, you need more turrets...
heh
i guess you didnt notice that i had 3-4 factories in nearly every picture.. guess that means i should have produced more marines from them..
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what people have been trying to say is that even if you go mech now there is no reason, i repeat, no reason not to get marines unless you are trying to hit a specific timing, which I sense you are not. it's moderately easy to secure a gold third as mech on most maps that aren't obnoxious later on and really why spend so many minerals on turrets when you can stream 3/3 marines into their base with the excess minerals?
if they are going really muta heavy you don't need that many hellions as a mineral sink anyway. 3/3 marines + micro = the king.
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On October 20 2011 11:54 FinestHour wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 09:54 Antisocialmunky wrote:On October 20 2011 09:09 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 20 2011 08:24 abSTRAkt wrote:
What league are you in Mr.Gold? this is a really big question, but even if you were masters it doesn't matter @ OP you can't get away with spending so much money on useless turrets like this vs good zergs. Money that you spend on turrets + the range upgrade slows down everything youre doing. It's apparent that you're winning games enough to feel comfortable enough to make a guide on TL. Maybe this will help players increase their winrate vs zergs as well, I don't know. But doing unrefined things like this will screw you over against a good player. edit: my posting seems to always be terribly incoherent and goes around everywhere.. why did i even quote abstrakt lol How would you counter mass muta strategies like Idra's? He cant
Lol burn?
But seriously, I'd like to see a more professional take on the matter as it seems like Idra's magic bullet against Terran.
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On October 20 2011 12:27 Logick wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 11:41 kofman wrote:
In your guide, I see you are getting +1 range before your infantry upgrades... As much as you seem to love turrets, I think thats a little overkill...
Sorry, but this guide is pretty useless. Every terran knows that you need turrets against mutas, and I think everyone knew that as the muta clump gets bigger, you need more turrets... heh i guess you didnt notice that i had 3-4 factories in nearly every picture.. guess that means i should have produced more marines from them..
Still doesn't change the fact that this guide is pretty much tells every terran what they already know
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On October 20 2011 11:54 FinestHour wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 09:54 Antisocialmunky wrote:On October 20 2011 09:09 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 20 2011 08:24 abSTRAkt wrote:
What league are you in Mr.Gold? this is a really big question, but even if you were masters it doesn't matter @ OP you can't get away with spending so much money on useless turrets like this vs good zergs. Money that you spend on turrets + the range upgrade slows down everything youre doing. It's apparent that you're winning games enough to feel comfortable enough to make a guide on TL. Maybe this will help players increase their winrate vs zergs as well, I don't know. But doing unrefined things like this will screw you over against a good player. edit: my posting seems to always be terribly incoherent and goes around everywhere.. why did i even quote abstrakt lol How would you counter mass muta strategies like Idra's? He cant
Turrets are there to delay against mutas, not fight them off. WIth marines, they are mobile enough to defend against the mutas while your turrets delay them. Also, against mass mutalisks, what you need is more drops and aggresive play to force the zerg to defend with the mutalisks rather than harras, not turrets.
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This is a wonderful idea for people who are dying to mutas. I was one of those Terrans who would just die to mutas. I think the key point to remember is that you should only defend as much as the zerg attacks. What I mean by that is four turrets aren't going to do anything against 20+ Mutalisks-- but at that point, 80 food is in your base, and the Zerg is more straight-up attacking you than just harassing your base. On the other side, you don't want to have four turrets at each base if the Zerg only makes six Mutalisks. In that case, it's a massive waste. As Terran gets to higher levels of play, it becomes more important to save that money for other things. Four turrets is 2 and 2/3rds Barracks. Mutalisk defense at extremely high levels can boil down to the following: defend with as little as you can possibly get away with. That, in my opinion, is the most important point.
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On October 20 2011 12:38 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 11:54 FinestHour wrote:On October 20 2011 09:54 Antisocialmunky wrote:On October 20 2011 09:09 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 20 2011 08:24 abSTRAkt wrote:
What league are you in Mr.Gold? this is a really big question, but even if you were masters it doesn't matter @ OP you can't get away with spending so much money on useless turrets like this vs good zergs. Money that you spend on turrets + the range upgrade slows down everything youre doing. It's apparent that you're winning games enough to feel comfortable enough to make a guide on TL. Maybe this will help players increase their winrate vs zergs as well, I don't know. But doing unrefined things like this will screw you over against a good player. edit: my posting seems to always be terribly incoherent and goes around everywhere.. why did i even quote abstrakt lol How would you counter mass muta strategies like Idra's? He cant Turrets are there to delay against mutas, not fight them off. WIth marines, they are mobile enough to defend against the mutas while your turrets delay them. Also, against mass mutalisks, what you need is more drops and aggresive play to force the zerg to defend with the mutalisks rather than harras, not turrets.
Well the issue is, Idra's go to strategy is to amass the ridiculous muta ball while pulling off textbook engages on the middle of the map when Terran has a window to push him. Otherwise, he harasses with the mutas and delays pushes with the muta so the mutas buy time and do econ damage.
Terran's only direct response to this is Thor + turret or mass Thor but this scales poorly since Thors cost so much food and turrets can only do so much DPS/area to defend the Thor. Even the Thor + turret becomes wholely ineffective are ridiculous muta numbers that Idra and pull off when he really goes for it.
Theory is Thors keep mutas from stacking to snipe the turrets and the turrets defend the Thor from being magic boxed but once you have so many muta that you can magic box the Thor and kill all the turrets, its a bad day unless you're push just arrived on his natural creep.
You can go mass Thor but mass Thor has a whole lot of problems against various things zerg does including an engage that kills most of your army followed by roach/infestor or ultra or brood lord remax...
So really, the answers are not so simple. My line has always been the broodwar line, get into Zerg's face and force him to have to defend with his mutas instead of harass you.
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I've been skimming through the thread and read the entire guide and I pretty well agree with it, the only problem that I reasonably see when incorporating this into some kind of Marine/Tank strategy is the ever crucial Hi-Sec Autotracking upgrade... Not interrupting your upgrades can be a pretty big deal.
The only thing I can think of that seems reasonable is to build the second engineering bay sooner... From most Terrans that I've seen (on ladder as well as in casts/tourneys etc) the common trend is to get a single engineering bay, start +1 attack, then start +1 armor and then around the time the +1 armor is almost finished, get that second engineering bay up armory to begin churning out +2/+2 at about the same time.
My proposal for a marine/tank mix might be to get that second engineering bay a little sooner than usual, get the hi-sec autotracking out of the way before you start working on your armory. Yeah you'll be down some minerals and gas... But that upgrade truly does make turrets and even PFs much more effective.
Obviously in a mech build this is no problem at all as you won't be upgrading your two marines that you've got out on the field lol. This also gives me wacky ideas to actually try out marine/raven in TvZ (yes I've read the guide already... it's kinda what inspired me in the first place).
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Yeah, but it's risky to go after the thor unless you know for sure there aren't marines nearby because the vision you get with mutas doesn't exactly surpass thor range. Doing a lot of drops could keep them at bay too, good offense leads to good defense, but you better be good at multitasking and not going past any overlords.
I seriously think it's much better to upgrade marines quickly against mass mutas over getting turret range. If they're putting all their gas into mutas it means they aren't teching fast into infestors or broodlords so heavily upgraded marines against zerglings/mutas that probably are behind in upgrades would do well if you can find a timing to attack.
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what pros do to successfully defend against pro muta play like dongreagu and idra is they make a few turrets to deter initial harass. when the muta count picks up, they'll add just enough turrets so that the mutas don't do any real damage before backup marines arrive. the pack of marines can usually defend a few places at once, for example placing them by the ramp can protect both the main and natural. if they know the muta count will keep growing, then they'll add in a thor or two to further minimize damage.
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On October 20 2011 13:02 Antisocialmunky wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 12:38 kofman wrote:On October 20 2011 11:54 FinestHour wrote:On October 20 2011 09:54 Antisocialmunky wrote:On October 20 2011 09:09 KawaiiRice wrote:On October 20 2011 08:24 abSTRAkt wrote:
What league are you in Mr.Gold? this is a really big question, but even if you were masters it doesn't matter @ OP you can't get away with spending so much money on useless turrets like this vs good zergs. Money that you spend on turrets + the range upgrade slows down everything youre doing. It's apparent that you're winning games enough to feel comfortable enough to make a guide on TL. Maybe this will help players increase their winrate vs zergs as well, I don't know. But doing unrefined things like this will screw you over against a good player. edit: my posting seems to always be terribly incoherent and goes around everywhere.. why did i even quote abstrakt lol How would you counter mass muta strategies like Idra's? He cant Turrets are there to delay against mutas, not fight them off. WIth marines, they are mobile enough to defend against the mutas while your turrets delay them. Also, against mass mutalisks, what you need is more drops and aggresive play to force the zerg to defend with the mutalisks rather than harras, not turrets. Well the issue is, Idra's go to strategy is to amass the ridiculous muta ball while pulling off textbook engages on the middle of the map when Terran has a window to push him. Otherwise, he harasses with the mutas and delays pushes with the muta so the mutas buy time and do econ damage. Terran's only direct response to this is Thor + turret or mass Thor but this scales poorly since Thors cost so much food and turrets can only do so much DPS/area to defend the Thor. Even the Thor + turret becomes wholely ineffective are ridiculous muta numbers that Idra and pull off when he really goes for it. Theory is Thors keep mutas from stacking to snipe the turrets and the turrets defend the Thor from being magic boxed but once you have so many muta that you can magic box the Thor and kill all the turrets, its a bad day unless you're push just arrived on his natural creep. You can go mass Thor but mass Thor has a whole lot of problems against various things zerg does including an engage that kills most of your army followed by roach/infestor or ultra or brood lord remax... So really, the answers are not so simple. My line has always been the broodwar line, get into Zerg's face and force him to have to defend with his mutas instead of harass you.
So basically, you are agreeing with me... I think people over value thors against mutalisks, in fact marines are the better counter because they are expendable, faster, and can kill mutas a lot faster.
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Thors can do more damage but rarely kill. I rather take 3 ghosts for mass snipe so you can actually reduce the muta count instead of just shoo away a bunch of yellow ones or 3 ravens for 6 pdd because you can block 120 muta shots so your turrets won't even get their paint scratched and you can straight push murder Zerg's ground army.
By the time you get on 3 base and mass muta becomes a problem, you can skew your production quite heavily in high gas/high min unit cops or unit comps with balanced gas/min cost. And those alternatives don't require upgrades to be useful at anti-muta.
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One of the biggest things, I think, is what those turrets could have been, or the Hi-Sec. That could also be a +1 to infantry, which is crucial in dealing with the mutas outside of your base (aka, the mobile anti-muta). Depending on the timing, on how much you're digging your heels in, turrets can be the most obvious choice, or the most obvious mistake.
I do think they could make for a decent/good mineral dump, should macro be slipping. But, there's always the option to also drop another rax or two and pump more marines. The benefit to the marines again being their mobility.
With the aforementioned use of turrets as a mineral dump, I could easily see hi-sec being a good investment. Planetaries are likely, and that extra range isn't a bad idea.
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On October 20 2011 12:36 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 12:27 Logick wrote:On October 20 2011 11:41 kofman wrote:
In your guide, I see you are getting +1 range before your infantry upgrades... As much as you seem to love turrets, I think thats a little overkill...
Sorry, but this guide is pretty useless. Every terran knows that you need turrets against mutas, and I think everyone knew that as the muta clump gets bigger, you need more turrets... heh i guess you didnt notice that i had 3-4 factories in nearly every picture.. guess that means i should have produced more marines from them.. Still doesn't change the fact that this guide is pretty much tells every terran what they already know
if you dont like it, don't read it
this is just something i wrote up which i thought might help a few people (and apparently it does)
so if you skimmed through the thread and thought it was useless, you don't have to add useless comments either
I'm fine with people disagreeing but you are just being silly
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On October 20 2011 14:06 Logick wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 12:36 kofman wrote:On October 20 2011 12:27 Logick wrote:On October 20 2011 11:41 kofman wrote:
In your guide, I see you are getting +1 range before your infantry upgrades... As much as you seem to love turrets, I think thats a little overkill...
Sorry, but this guide is pretty useless. Every terran knows that you need turrets against mutas, and I think everyone knew that as the muta clump gets bigger, you need more turrets... heh i guess you didnt notice that i had 3-4 factories in nearly every picture.. guess that means i should have produced more marines from them.. Still doesn't change the fact that this guide is pretty much tells every terran what they already know if you dont like it, don't read it this is just something i wrote up which i thought might help a few people (and apparently it does) so if you skimmed through the thread and thought it was useless, you don't have to add useless comments either I'm fine with people disagreeing but you are just being silly
You are contradicting yourself. If you're fine with people disagreeing with you, why are you being so defensive? In my opinion, this guide is not very helpful because everybody knows this already. If you think otherwise, then fine.
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the fact is your statement comes off as dismissive and neither does it contribute to the discussion
rather you dont come off as disagreeing but rather pompous as if to say: "im too smart for this i win"
and rather if u read through the thread then you should know that some people find this information somewhat useful
so unless the word "everyone" has changed its meaning in the english language, you need to look up a dictionary
and rather than being defensive I'm trying keep the criticism constructive rather than your stupid 1 line statement
if youre a GM then good for you but not everyone who goes through the forum is a GM are they
edit: and if its your opinion that the thread is not useful then keep it to yourself unless you have something to bring to the table than a 1 liner
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I like the idea, but it is also a very stupid idea. It isn't that spending 400 minerals won't auto-save your buildings, but if you think about it only 4 turrets are protecting like a 7ish x 7ish radius of the base. Which means you have to spend 1200 minerals to protect your base, which cuts WAY into your army thats 24 marines you don't have... Which means you can't push any time soon or you lose your tanks.
A bunker full of marines is cheaper than this :|
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On October 20 2011 14:06 Logick wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 12:36 kofman wrote:On October 20 2011 12:27 Logick wrote:On October 20 2011 11:41 kofman wrote:
In your guide, I see you are getting +1 range before your infantry upgrades... As much as you seem to love turrets, I think thats a little overkill...
Sorry, but this guide is pretty useless. Every terran knows that you need turrets against mutas, and I think everyone knew that as the muta clump gets bigger, you need more turrets... heh i guess you didnt notice that i had 3-4 factories in nearly every picture.. guess that means i should have produced more marines from them.. Still doesn't change the fact that this guide is pretty much tells every terran what they already know if you dont like it, don't read it
wow, ingenious...
how are you supposed to know if you like something or not if you don't read it first?
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On October 20 2011 14:25 Logick wrote:
the fact is your statement comes off as dismissive and neither does it contribute to the discussion
rather you dont come off as disagreeing but rather pompous as if to say: "im too smart for this i win"
and rather if u read through the thread then you should know that some people find this information somewhat useful
so unless the word "everyone" has changed its meaning in the english language, you need to look up a dictionary
and rather than being defensive I'm trying keep the criticism constructive rather than your stupid 1 line statement
if youre a GM then good for you but not everyone who goes through the forum is a GM are they
edit: and if its your opinion that the thread is not useful then keep it to yourself unless you have something to bring to the table than a 1 liner
man, you really like to argue.
All I said was that I don't think this thread is very useful, since everybody knows about turrets already. No need to get all sensitive.
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On October 20 2011 13:24 akalarry wrote:
what pros do to successfully defend against pro muta play like dongreagu and idra is they make a few turrets to deter initial harass. when the muta count picks up, they'll add just enough turrets so that the mutas don't do any real damage before backup marines arrive. the pack of marines can usually defend a few places at once, for example placing them by the ramp can protect both the main and natural. if they know the muta count will keep growing, then they'll add in a thor or two to further minimize damage.
This. You add on turrets to the ring as you scout them continuing muta count. Even though the OP might not have experience vs top 20 GM or some shiot, it's pretty frustrating watching TvZ lately in tournaments where the Terran refuses to build missile turrets and mutas fly in, kill the turrets, fly out, Terran builds just like 2 more turrets...mutas come in and rape em like it's nothing...just as OP described...so yeah...more T should make turrets...lol but dunno if this is a guide so much as a PSA about missile turrets lol ^_^
Also, the range upgrade is very good.
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On October 20 2011 15:13 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 14:25 Logick wrote:
the fact is your statement comes off as dismissive and neither does it contribute to the discussion
rather you dont come off as disagreeing but rather pompous as if to say: "im too smart for this i win"
and rather if u read through the thread then you should know that some people find this information somewhat useful
so unless the word "everyone" has changed its meaning in the english language, you need to look up a dictionary
and rather than being defensive I'm trying keep the criticism constructive rather than your stupid 1 line statement
if youre a GM then good for you but not everyone who goes through the forum is a GM are they
edit: and if its your opinion that the thread is not useful then keep it to yourself unless you have something to bring to the table than a 1 liner man, you really like to argue. All I said was that I don't think this thread is very useful, since everybody knows about turrets already. No need to get all sensitive.
Not really. Many bnet users copy the pros. Only in rare cases do they make more than 1-2 turrets at a time. It's important to know that when you don't have MMA or MVP's control, 1-2 is not enough, because attacking with mutas is easier than defending with marines in bronze.
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Try a thor and 3-4 turrets around the mineral line/base, instead of 1-2. If the zerg has like 30 mutas you should have a third base, if not something has happened in that specific game. Try to put a thor or two, the zerg won't charge in then.
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I actually go for the building armor first and it works wonders. 8 mutas kills 2 turrets so slowly that you are never in danger of loosing SCV's.
This is about done up to the 10-12 ingame minute depending and I add two more turrets by the 14th ingame minute mark.
Overall I also have 4 turrets in the production line and 3 turrets in the mineral line with 8 marines that always sit in the base. I never push out with them and it works pretty good.
Also when expanding I build immediately a bunker touching one of the gases and then wall it off with depots going from the bunker to the CC to safeguard from banelings and zerglings. With the 3 turets it also helps against mutalisks.
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If you want to see this in action watch Bomber's games, well, anywhere. He tends to build around a million turrets and it largely shuts down muta harass (notably at MLG, I remember in his games vs IdrA especially).
The problem with building lots of turrets, that I've encountered in my own play, is twofold:
1. Placement: Turrets need, obviously, to be placed properly. It doesn't help to have 12 turrets if a critical part of your base is only protected by one or two. They need to be able to cover each other or you are wasting money.
2. Gradualism: Its easy to just build ten turrets right when you first see the mutas, but also quite foolish. Such an expenditure, all at once, will slow down your production an economy dramatically and you will quickly lose any momentum. Besides theres the possibility that they dont build any mutas, or at least not many. When the mutas first show up there will usually be only 9 or 10, and you only need a few turrets and marines to defend. What Bomber does is hebuilds only 1 per base initially, then slowly adds more over time until his base is fully defended once he wants to move out with his army.
Edit: to summarize, if you like building lots of turrets and want to see someone qualified demonstrate it, watch Bomber.
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I really don't understand the use of this thread. It's like saying "Build bunkers if you see 4 wg".
I mean of course we are going to build turrets if we see muta. After reading your Problem statement, which is of course true, and experiencing the "Problem" as a high master terran, I've found my own solution as indeed we all should. And it is not to drop 5 turrets and get the +1 range and armor upgrade early on.
Its to reposition your army (thor/ marine + medivac) where the muta may come in. Drop a few turrets around crucial production facilities and add ons. But dont delay expanding and units, with 5+ turrets in both mineral lines. Good micro and map sense is preventative in this regard
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some people are missing big points in this thread
1) you don't build it all at once
2) scout before building
3) some people have the mentality that static D = bad (like for Protoss, OMG you built a cannon now you don't have 150 minerals for a zealot and a probe now), when in reality wise static D = good (seems like he's going air, I'll build turrets so my army can be more mobile)
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On October 21 2011 00:11 quantumslip wrote:
some people are missing big points in this thread
1) you don't build it all at once
2) scout before building
3) some people have the mentality that static D = bad (like for Protoss, OMG you built a cannon now you don't have 150 minerals for a zealot and a probe now), when in reality wise static D = good (seems like he's going air, I'll build turrets so my army can be more mobile)
How do you scout whether the zerg will have 15 mutas or 30 mutas in 30 seconds? You cant, and hence you need (according to how i understand op) to build up enough turrets to defend vs worst possible scenario (which is 30 mutas). Since there must be no weak angle, you need to make an insane amount of turrets, and hence you will never be able to produce enough mariens to attack.
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On October 21 2011 00:19 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 00:11 quantumslip wrote:
some people are missing big points in this thread
1) you don't build it all at once
2) scout before building
3) some people have the mentality that static D = bad (like for Protoss, OMG you built a cannon now you don't have 150 minerals for a zealot and a probe now), when in reality wise static D = good (seems like he's going air, I'll build turrets so my army can be more mobile)
How do you scout whether the zerg will have 15 mutas or 30 mutas in 30 seconds? You cant, and hence you need (according to how i understand op) to build up enough turrets to defend vs worst possible scenario (which is 30 mutas). Since there must be no weak angle, you need to make an insane amount of turrets, and hence you will never be able to produce enough mariens to attack.
you determine the muta number by what his current army composition is
if hes going muta-ling-bane then he will be pretty muta heavy
if you see heavy roach, or ling infestor, or roach ling, etc, you will probably deal with light muta harass
its the understanding of what unit composition your opponent is going for that determines your reaction.. these are really basic things
I guess you just didnt get any of the points i was trying to bring across
note that I say that the turrets should deter the mutas and even in a heavy clump of 25 mutas, if your opponent bothers to take out all 4 turrets, reinforcements would have arrived already to deal with them
or while trying to take out the turrets to do more dmg to your base, you could move out for a timing
you and other people seem to have the misconception that I'm saying "you have to make an insane amount of turrets to completely defend yourself against mutas"
when in reality my point is, a few extra turrets will act as a good deterrence against small to medium size clumps, while against ridiculously big clumps it will buy you time and options to do counter attacks or defend your base
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On October 21 2011 00:45 Logick wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 00:19 Hider wrote:On October 21 2011 00:11 quantumslip wrote:
some people are missing big points in this thread
1) you don't build it all at once
2) scout before building
3) some people have the mentality that static D = bad (like for Protoss, OMG you built a cannon now you don't have 150 minerals for a zealot and a probe now), when in reality wise static D = good (seems like he's going air, I'll build turrets so my army can be more mobile)
How do you scout whether the zerg will have 15 mutas or 30 mutas in 30 seconds? You cant, and hence you need (according to how i understand op) to build up enough turrets to defend vs worst possible scenario (which is 30 mutas). Since there must be no weak angle, you need to make an insane amount of turrets, and hence you will never be able to produce enough mariens to attack. you determine the muta number by what his current army composition is if hes going muta-ling-bane then he will be pretty muta heavy if you see heavy roach, or ling infestor, or roach ling, etc, you will probably deal with light muta harass its the understanding of what unit composition your opponent is going for that determines your reaction.. these are really basic things I guess you just didnt get any of the points i was trying to bring across note that I say that the turrets should deter the mutas and even in a heavy clump of 25 mutas, if your opponent bothers to take out all 4 turrets, reinforcements would have arrived already to deal with them or while trying to take out the turrets to do more dmg to your base, you could move out for a timing you and other people seem to have the misconception that I'm saying "you have to make an insane amount of turrets to completely defend yourself against mutas" when in reality my point is, a few extra turrets will act as a good deterrence against small to medium size clumps, while against ridiculously big clumps it will buy you time and options to do counter attacks or defend your base
Well you assume that you know your opponents exact unit composition through all the game, and this is just a wrong assumption, because of the larva-mechanicms.
Anyway, OK as I understand you, you only want to "overbuild" turrets in early mid game (so no gradual increases?).
But then the same problem arises. How do you attack if your opponent has 25 +2 mutas? Here the difference between 4 and 2 turrets is only like 0.5 seconds before those 2 extra turrets are dead. And then your main is vulnerabe. Why not (according to your logic) build gradually more turrets if you fear the zerg will have more than 15 mutas?
As I see it there is barely any difference between having 2 turrets when opp has 10-15 mutas, and 4 turrets when opp has 25 mutas.
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On October 21 2011 02:22 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 00:45 Logick wrote:On October 21 2011 00:19 Hider wrote:On October 21 2011 00:11 quantumslip wrote:
some people are missing big points in this thread
1) you don't build it all at once
2) scout before building
3) some people have the mentality that static D = bad (like for Protoss, OMG you built a cannon now you don't have 150 minerals for a zealot and a probe now), when in reality wise static D = good (seems like he's going air, I'll build turrets so my army can be more mobile)
How do you scout whether the zerg will have 15 mutas or 30 mutas in 30 seconds? You cant, and hence you need (according to how i understand op) to build up enough turrets to defend vs worst possible scenario (which is 30 mutas). Since there must be no weak angle, you need to make an insane amount of turrets, and hence you will never be able to produce enough mariens to attack. you determine the muta number by what his current army composition is if hes going muta-ling-bane then he will be pretty muta heavy if you see heavy roach, or ling infestor, or roach ling, etc, you will probably deal with light muta harass its the understanding of what unit composition your opponent is going for that determines your reaction.. these are really basic things I guess you just didnt get any of the points i was trying to bring across note that I say that the turrets should deter the mutas and even in a heavy clump of 25 mutas, if your opponent bothers to take out all 4 turrets, reinforcements would have arrived already to deal with them or while trying to take out the turrets to do more dmg to your base, you could move out for a timing you and other people seem to have the misconception that I'm saying "you have to make an insane amount of turrets to completely defend yourself against mutas" when in reality my point is, a few extra turrets will act as a good deterrence against small to medium size clumps, while against ridiculously big clumps it will buy you time and options to do counter attacks or defend your base Well you assume that you know your opponents exact unit composition through all the game, and this is just a wrong assumption, because of the larva-mechanicms. Anyway, OK as I understand you, you only want to "overbuild" turrets in early mid game (so no gradual increases?). But then the same problem arises. How do you attack if your opponent has 25 +2 mutas? Here the difference between 4 and 2 turrets is only like 0.5 seconds before those 2 extra turrets are dead. And then your main is vulnerabe. Why not (according to your logic) build gradually more turrets according to expected worst amount of mutas that the zerg can attack you with in 30 seconds? As I see it there is barely any difference between having 2 turrets when opp has 10-15 mutas, and 4 turrets when opp has 25 mutas.
Yeah I agree, with larva mechanics you can't take for granted WHAT the zerg army might be, no matter what you see on the field.
This thread is silly to me, as I expressed in a previous post. Granted this thread may not be for me and may be for lower players who are not able to divide their army and appropriate it effectively.
When you say that Bomber builds tons of turrets, he does but only AFTER he sees a ton of muta and ONLY in the late game. This thread makes the presumption that many turrets must be thrown down BEFORE you even know how many mutalisks he has, which is silly. If a zerg spots a bunch of turrets via a scouting overlord, they may skip the muta tech altogether and just expand and macro harder.
And they could do that because 1,000 minerals went into turrets (5 on each mineral line as you say, not including those on the exterior of your base), when that $$$ could have gone into an expand, upgrades, better tech.
For these reasons, this makes no sense.... and indeed, it may cost you the game.
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On October 20 2011 15:21 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 13:24 akalarry wrote:
what pros do to successfully defend against pro muta play like dongreagu and idra is they make a few turrets to deter initial harass. when the muta count picks up, they'll add just enough turrets so that the mutas don't do any real damage before backup marines arrive. the pack of marines can usually defend a few places at once, for example placing them by the ramp can protect both the main and natural. if they know the muta count will keep growing, then they'll add in a thor or two to further minimize damage. This. You add on turrets to the ring as you scout them continuing muta count. Even though the OP might not have experience vs top 20 GM or some shiot, it's pretty frustrating watching TvZ lately in tournaments where the Terran refuses to build missile turrets and mutas fly in, kill the turrets, fly out, Terran builds just like 2 more turrets...mutas come in and rape em like it's nothing...just as OP described...so yeah...more T should make turrets...lol but dunno if this is a guide so much as a PSA about missile turrets lol ^_^ Also, the range upgrade is very good.
lol the range upgrade...
Try the building upgrade!!! + 2 armor on buildings, if you build turrets in groups it minimizes the damage you take from splash, and neutralizes up to 2 attack upgrades from primary attack!!
edit: oh it was already mentioned sry =(
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All this thread is saying is that people are not building turrets to match the growing mutalisk number. Everyone seems to be able to make 2 at 9 minutes to defend against the initial mutas, but rarely do terrans make the 3 or 4 requried to defend or stall against a bigger ball.
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On October 19 2011 23:29 Antisocialmunky wrote:
+2 armor basically negates the third bounce and heavily reduces damage from the first bounce and initial attack.
Also, you're never going to have enough minerals in SCII to spam turrets everywhere because marines are so necessary. I mean, in SC, late game Terran could just have walls and walls of turrets when they switched to mech.
Honestly, spending 300 minerals extra on turrets will end up saving you a lot more in the long run unless you're extremely good at muta defense. One depot here, two SCVs there, 4 stray marines, then rebuilding two turrets that got taken out before your marines arrived etc etc.
You wont have to stim your marines as much, you wont have to multitask quite as much, 20 mutas wont force you to leave 15 marines in your base when pushing.
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On October 21 2011 03:08 Snusdosa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2011 23:29 Antisocialmunky wrote:
+2 armor basically negates the third bounce and heavily reduces damage from the first bounce and initial attack.
Also, you're never going to have enough minerals in SCII to spam turrets everywhere because marines are so necessary. I mean, in SC, late game Terran could just have walls and walls of turrets when they switched to mech. Honestly, spending 300 minerals extra on turrets will end up saving you a lot more in the long run unless you're extremely good at muta defense. One depot here, two SCVs there, 4 stray marines, then rebuilding two turrets that got taken out before your marines arrived etc etc. You wont have to stim your marines as much, you wont have to multitask quite as much, 20 mutas wont force you to leave 15 marines in your base when pushing.
Yeah but there are ways to be more proactive in your defense of mutas. If you suspect mutas or indeed scan them, leaving a small group of marines with medivac support is a great way to ward off potential attacks.
Furthermore, many pros leave Thors in mineral lines before a push for this reason. A few Thor volleys are enough to deter and send a very clear message to zerg players utilizing muta play (gtfo!).
Like I mentioned earlier, if you are not good at multitasking or do not respond well to harass, then dropping 10 turrets might be best for you at lower levels. However, at higher levels the need for a proactive mobile force is paramount, and trading crucial resources on static defense is a trade I would not like to make.
The only time I will drop a bunch of turrets is right before leaving for a push so zerg can't take a few potshots at me while I'm walking over to destroy them.
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You should read more of the thread, there was a discussion about that.
A few turrets with a few marines are probably best as of right now rather than all one or the other.
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To Turret or not to Turret is one of the great dilemmas of TvZ when up against Mutas. You should always make 2 or 3 of them to ward of smaller muta packs and buy time for your marines against larger muta packs. However in regards to whether or not to mass turrets:
When should you not mass turrets:
-When playing "standard" marine/tank based builds. You should be spending your minerals into marines and using them to deter mutas with good placement. You will probably be pushing out when near maxed. You don't want to spend into mass turrets because that just delays your max army push which allows Zerg to bank up even more money for his "300 food" army. You want to be spending everything into maxing out with good upgrades. The mobility of your marines means that you can fight off mutas pretty effectively without massing up turrets.
When you should mass turrets:
-When playing pure mech. Because you are so immobile, you need mass turrets to give your units the tactical edge to move out. Since your E-bay isn't being used for bio upgrades, you can go ahead and use it for Hi-Sec & Building Armor. Also, since he's massing mutas and your mineral dump (helions) aren't so great against mutas, you might as well dump it into turrets.
-Very late game when playing standard marine/tank/x and you are maxed out. Because Terran cannot bank money and dump it quickly, you might as well do something with that money. Neutralizing mutalisk counter-attacks so that the only thing they are good for is straight up fighting is as good a money expenditure as any at that point. At this point, if Zerg doesn't have Hive tech he will most likely lose.
That being said, Turrets have a certain tactical value in that they allow your units the ability to move out and pressure Zerg. This is a difficult value to quantify, since moving units out to pressure Zerg can potentially delay their drone production by forcing units. Thus while your army may be smaller because you spent money into turrets, you've "damaged" the Zerg by being able to freely move around the map and apply pressure with the units that you do have. The key here is to not overmake turrets so that your army is still a threatening size, but making enough so that Mutas don't just have free reign over your bases. It's a delicate balance to strike, even for the pros.
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building armor > range if you place buildings/turrets properly
but it doesnt hurt to have both if you have alot of gas.
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On October 20 2011 11:41 kofman wrote:
In your guide, I see you are getting +1 range before your infantry upgrades... As much as you seem to love turrets, I think thats a little overkill...
Sorry, but this guide is pretty useless. Every terran knows that you need turrets against mutas, and I think everyone knew that as the muta clump gets bigger, you need more turrets...
but people don't know that, and that's why the guide is valid.
How many times you have you seen masters and above Terran players have only a single turret in the middle of their mineral line? happens all the time.
and if the guide was so useless, you wouldn't even be responding to this. so obviously there is value but you are trying to downrank it, while injecting little to no value of your own.
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On October 21 2011 02:53 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 02:22 Hider wrote:On October 21 2011 00:45 Logick wrote:On October 21 2011 00:19 Hider wrote:On October 21 2011 00:11 quantumslip wrote:
some people are missing big points in this thread
1) you don't build it all at once
2) scout before building
3) some people have the mentality that static D = bad (like for Protoss, OMG you built a cannon now you don't have 150 minerals for a zealot and a probe now), when in reality wise static D = good (seems like he's going air, I'll build turrets so my army can be more mobile)
How do you scout whether the zerg will have 15 mutas or 30 mutas in 30 seconds? You cant, and hence you need (according to how i understand op) to build up enough turrets to defend vs worst possible scenario (which is 30 mutas). Since there must be no weak angle, you need to make an insane amount of turrets, and hence you will never be able to produce enough mariens to attack. you determine the muta number by what his current army composition is if hes going muta-ling-bane then he will be pretty muta heavy if you see heavy roach, or ling infestor, or roach ling, etc, you will probably deal with light muta harass its the understanding of what unit composition your opponent is going for that determines your reaction.. these are really basic things I guess you just didnt get any of the points i was trying to bring across note that I say that the turrets should deter the mutas and even in a heavy clump of 25 mutas, if your opponent bothers to take out all 4 turrets, reinforcements would have arrived already to deal with them or while trying to take out the turrets to do more dmg to your base, you could move out for a timing you and other people seem to have the misconception that I'm saying "you have to make an insane amount of turrets to completely defend yourself against mutas" when in reality my point is, a few extra turrets will act as a good deterrence against small to medium size clumps, while against ridiculously big clumps it will buy you time and options to do counter attacks or defend your base Well you assume that you know your opponents exact unit composition through all the game, and this is just a wrong assumption, because of the larva-mechanicms. Anyway, OK as I understand you, you only want to "overbuild" turrets in early mid game (so no gradual increases?). But then the same problem arises. How do you attack if your opponent has 25 +2 mutas? Here the difference between 4 and 2 turrets is only like 0.5 seconds before those 2 extra turrets are dead. And then your main is vulnerabe. Why not (according to your logic) build gradually more turrets according to expected worst amount of mutas that the zerg can attack you with in 30 seconds? As I see it there is barely any difference between having 2 turrets when opp has 10-15 mutas, and 4 turrets when opp has 25 mutas. Yeah I agree, with larva mechanics you can't take for granted WHAT the zerg army might be, no matter what you see on the field. This thread is silly to me, as I expressed in a previous post. Granted this thread may not be for me and may be for lower players who are not able to divide their army and appropriate it effectively. When you say that Bomber builds tons of turrets, he does but only AFTER he sees a ton of muta and ONLY in the late game. This thread makes the presumption that many turrets must be thrown down BEFORE you even know how many mutalisks he has, which is silly. If a zerg spots a bunch of turrets via a scouting overlord, they may skip the muta tech altogether and just expand and macro harder. And they could do that because 1,000 minerals went into turrets (5 on each mineral line as you say, not including those on the exterior of your base), when that $$$ could have gone into an expand, upgrades, better tech. For these reasons, this makes no sense.... and indeed, it may cost you the game.
And silly things like burrowed Infestors or tunnel claw roaches can cost you the game too. There is virtually no downside to having at least 1-2 turrets in your base at the 10 minute mark.
1) if he doesn't make any turrets or not enough turrets, in come the mutas and bye bye all your workers.
2) You make turrets, zerg spots them, and completely changes his mind "ok fine, then i won't make any mutas" well...then that solved the problem too - because you won't worry about harass the same way anymore, right?
If I spend 300-500 minerals just to guarantee me that I won't face any muta harass, well that's the choice I like better than the alternatives.
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On October 20 2011 09:09 KawaiiRice wrote:this is a really big question, but even if you were masters it doesn't matter @ OP you can't get away with spending so much money on useless turrets like this vs good zergs. Money that you spend on turrets + the range upgrade slows down everything youre doing. It's apparent that you're winning games enough to feel comfortable enough to make a guide on TL. Maybe this will help players increase their winrate vs zergs as well, I don't know. But doing unrefined things like this will screw you over against a good player. edit: my posting seems to always be terribly incoherent and goes around everywhere.. why did i even quote abstrakt lol
I totally get what you're saying. This is probably the reason why all those GSL champs start off with very minimal turrets.
The reality is for those of us who are not GSL champs and will never even get close to masters. We don't have the ability to fend of a wily muta harasser without a crutch(which is this case are turrets). We pull our SCV's, run our marines back, and guess what? mutas are gone. We leave, BAM they came right back(they were just hiding in the corner). Then we go on tilt and you know the rest.
The pros don't need these crutches so they can get away with so much more - compared to the average joe. If we over make turrets, people like IdrA will tell us how stupid, terrible, or how unfortunate we are as a player...well...most of us will never face IdrA, or anyone near his caliber. Hence these crutches.
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On October 21 2011 02:22 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 00:45 Logick wrote:On October 21 2011 00:19 Hider wrote:On October 21 2011 00:11 quantumslip wrote:
some people are missing big points in this thread
1) you don't build it all at once
2) scout before building
3) some people have the mentality that static D = bad (like for Protoss, OMG you built a cannon now you don't have 150 minerals for a zealot and a probe now), when in reality wise static D = good (seems like he's going air, I'll build turrets so my army can be more mobile)
How do you scout whether the zerg will have 15 mutas or 30 mutas in 30 seconds? You cant, and hence you need (according to how i understand op) to build up enough turrets to defend vs worst possible scenario (which is 30 mutas). Since there must be no weak angle, you need to make an insane amount of turrets, and hence you will never be able to produce enough mariens to attack. you determine the muta number by what his current army composition is if hes going muta-ling-bane then he will be pretty muta heavy if you see heavy roach, or ling infestor, or roach ling, etc, you will probably deal with light muta harass its the understanding of what unit composition your opponent is going for that determines your reaction.. these are really basic things I guess you just didnt get any of the points i was trying to bring across note that I say that the turrets should deter the mutas and even in a heavy clump of 25 mutas, if your opponent bothers to take out all 4 turrets, reinforcements would have arrived already to deal with them or while trying to take out the turrets to do more dmg to your base, you could move out for a timing you and other people seem to have the misconception that I'm saying "you have to make an insane amount of turrets to completely defend yourself against mutas" when in reality my point is, a few extra turrets will act as a good deterrence against small to medium size clumps, while against ridiculously big clumps it will buy you time and options to do counter attacks or defend your base Well you assume that you know your opponents exact unit composition through all the game, and this is just a wrong assumption, because of the larva-mechanicms. Anyway, OK as I understand you, you only want to "overbuild" turrets in early mid game (so no gradual increases?).But then the same problem arises. How do you attack if your opponent has 25 +2 mutas? Here the difference between 4 and 2 turrets is only like 0.5 seconds before those 2 extra turrets are dead. And then your main is vulnerabe. Why not (according to your logic) build gradually more turrets if you fear the zerg will have more than 15 mutas? As I see it there is barely any difference between having 2 turrets when opp has 10-15 mutas, and 4 turrets when opp has 25 mutas.
wow dude how you arrived at the conclusion that the key is to overbuild? I'm sorry to have to say this but is your reading comprehension that terrible that you cant even get the points across?
its stated SO MANY times thats you want to scout the composition before you decide on how many turrets you want to make, and that you WILL gradually increase turrets to match the muta count
also a lot of people seem to have a one track mind that TvZ = marine tanks only
@zmansman
yes many pros do leave a thor at the mineral line but also many people tend to overvalue the use of a thor because they forget about the magic box - even if you mass repair youre gonna lose SCVs and eventually the thor while maybe killing only 1-3 mutas (depending on the muta ball)
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On October 21 2011 05:31 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 02:53 zmansman17 wrote:On October 21 2011 02:22 Hider wrote:On October 21 2011 00:45 Logick wrote:On October 21 2011 00:19 Hider wrote:On October 21 2011 00:11 quantumslip wrote:
some people are missing big points in this thread
1) you don't build it all at once
2) scout before building
3) some people have the mentality that static D = bad (like for Protoss, OMG you built a cannon now you don't have 150 minerals for a zealot and a probe now), when in reality wise static D = good (seems like he's going air, I'll build turrets so my army can be more mobile)
How do you scout whether the zerg will have 15 mutas or 30 mutas in 30 seconds? You cant, and hence you need (according to how i understand op) to build up enough turrets to defend vs worst possible scenario (which is 30 mutas). Since there must be no weak angle, you need to make an insane amount of turrets, and hence you will never be able to produce enough mariens to attack. you determine the muta number by what his current army composition is if hes going muta-ling-bane then he will be pretty muta heavy if you see heavy roach, or ling infestor, or roach ling, etc, you will probably deal with light muta harass its the understanding of what unit composition your opponent is going for that determines your reaction.. these are really basic things I guess you just didnt get any of the points i was trying to bring across note that I say that the turrets should deter the mutas and even in a heavy clump of 25 mutas, if your opponent bothers to take out all 4 turrets, reinforcements would have arrived already to deal with them or while trying to take out the turrets to do more dmg to your base, you could move out for a timing you and other people seem to have the misconception that I'm saying "you have to make an insane amount of turrets to completely defend yourself against mutas" when in reality my point is, a few extra turrets will act as a good deterrence against small to medium size clumps, while against ridiculously big clumps it will buy you time and options to do counter attacks or defend your base Well you assume that you know your opponents exact unit composition through all the game, and this is just a wrong assumption, because of the larva-mechanicms. Anyway, OK as I understand you, you only want to "overbuild" turrets in early mid game (so no gradual increases?). But then the same problem arises. How do you attack if your opponent has 25 +2 mutas? Here the difference between 4 and 2 turrets is only like 0.5 seconds before those 2 extra turrets are dead. And then your main is vulnerabe. Why not (according to your logic) build gradually more turrets according to expected worst amount of mutas that the zerg can attack you with in 30 seconds? As I see it there is barely any difference between having 2 turrets when opp has 10-15 mutas, and 4 turrets when opp has 25 mutas. Yeah I agree, with larva mechanics you can't take for granted WHAT the zerg army might be, no matter what you see on the field. This thread is silly to me, as I expressed in a previous post. Granted this thread may not be for me and may be for lower players who are not able to divide their army and appropriate it effectively. When you say that Bomber builds tons of turrets, he does but only AFTER he sees a ton of muta and ONLY in the late game. This thread makes the presumption that many turrets must be thrown down BEFORE you even know how many mutalisks he has, which is silly. If a zerg spots a bunch of turrets via a scouting overlord, they may skip the muta tech altogether and just expand and macro harder. And they could do that because 1,000 minerals went into turrets (5 on each mineral line as you say, not including those on the exterior of your base), when that $$$ could have gone into an expand, upgrades, better tech. For these reasons, this makes no sense.... and indeed, it may cost you the game. And silly things like burrowed Infestors or tunnel claw roaches can cost you the game too. There is virtually no downside to having at least 1-2 turrets in your base at the 10 minute mark. 1) if he doesn't make any turrets or not enough turrets, in come the mutas and bye bye all your workers. 2) You make turrets, zerg spots them, and completely changes his mind "ok fine, then i won't make any mutas" well...then that solved the problem too - because you won't worry about harass the same way anymore, right? If I spend 300-500 minerals just to guarantee me that I won't face any muta harass, well that's the choice I like better than the alternatives.
I believe you are mis-interpreting the entire thread. The OP said 4-5 turrets in each mineral line and 4-5 turrets in each mineral line is not 1-2?? Of course any player is going to drop 1-2 turrets in their mineral line (pre-muta) and no one would disagree with you. But that's also not what I'm saying.
For the record, 1,000 minerals = 10 turrets lol. I suppose I did not specify how many that would be, just assumed you could do the math. As I described earlier, I think 10 is altogether excessive and a huge waste of resources on static defense.
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On October 21 2011 09:31 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 05:31 D_K_night wrote:On October 21 2011 02:53 zmansman17 wrote:On October 21 2011 02:22 Hider wrote:On October 21 2011 00:45 Logick wrote:On October 21 2011 00:19 Hider wrote:On October 21 2011 00:11 quantumslip wrote:
some people are missing big points in this thread
1) you don't build it all at once
2) scout before building
3) some people have the mentality that static D = bad (like for Protoss, OMG you built a cannon now you don't have 150 minerals for a zealot and a probe now), when in reality wise static D = good (seems like he's going air, I'll build turrets so my army can be more mobile)
How do you scout whether the zerg will have 15 mutas or 30 mutas in 30 seconds? You cant, and hence you need (according to how i understand op) to build up enough turrets to defend vs worst possible scenario (which is 30 mutas). Since there must be no weak angle, you need to make an insane amount of turrets, and hence you will never be able to produce enough mariens to attack. you determine the muta number by what his current army composition is if hes going muta-ling-bane then he will be pretty muta heavy if you see heavy roach, or ling infestor, or roach ling, etc, you will probably deal with light muta harass its the understanding of what unit composition your opponent is going for that determines your reaction.. these are really basic things I guess you just didnt get any of the points i was trying to bring across note that I say that the turrets should deter the mutas and even in a heavy clump of 25 mutas, if your opponent bothers to take out all 4 turrets, reinforcements would have arrived already to deal with them or while trying to take out the turrets to do more dmg to your base, you could move out for a timing you and other people seem to have the misconception that I'm saying "you have to make an insane amount of turrets to completely defend yourself against mutas" when in reality my point is, a few extra turrets will act as a good deterrence against small to medium size clumps, while against ridiculously big clumps it will buy you time and options to do counter attacks or defend your base Well you assume that you know your opponents exact unit composition through all the game, and this is just a wrong assumption, because of the larva-mechanicms. Anyway, OK as I understand you, you only want to "overbuild" turrets in early mid game (so no gradual increases?). But then the same problem arises. How do you attack if your opponent has 25 +2 mutas? Here the difference between 4 and 2 turrets is only like 0.5 seconds before those 2 extra turrets are dead. And then your main is vulnerabe. Why not (according to your logic) build gradually more turrets according to expected worst amount of mutas that the zerg can attack you with in 30 seconds? As I see it there is barely any difference between having 2 turrets when opp has 10-15 mutas, and 4 turrets when opp has 25 mutas. Yeah I agree, with larva mechanics you can't take for granted WHAT the zerg army might be, no matter what you see on the field. This thread is silly to me, as I expressed in a previous post. Granted this thread may not be for me and may be for lower players who are not able to divide their army and appropriate it effectively. When you say that Bomber builds tons of turrets, he does but only AFTER he sees a ton of muta and ONLY in the late game. This thread makes the presumption that many turrets must be thrown down BEFORE you even know how many mutalisks he has, which is silly. If a zerg spots a bunch of turrets via a scouting overlord, they may skip the muta tech altogether and just expand and macro harder. And they could do that because 1,000 minerals went into turrets (5 on each mineral line as you say, not including those on the exterior of your base), when that $$$ could have gone into an expand, upgrades, better tech. For these reasons, this makes no sense.... and indeed, it may cost you the game. And silly things like burrowed Infestors or tunnel claw roaches can cost you the game too. There is virtually no downside to having at least 1-2 turrets in your base at the 10 minute mark. 1) if he doesn't make any turrets or not enough turrets, in come the mutas and bye bye all your workers. 2) You make turrets, zerg spots them, and completely changes his mind "ok fine, then i won't make any mutas" well...then that solved the problem too - because you won't worry about harass the same way anymore, right? If I spend 300-500 minerals just to guarantee me that I won't face any muta harass, well that's the choice I like better than the alternatives. I believe you are mis-interpreting the entire thread. The OP said 4-5 turrets in each mineral line and 4-5 turrets in each mineral line is not 1-2?? Of course any player is going to drop 1-2 turrets in their mineral line (pre-muta) and no one would disagree with you. But that's also not what I'm saying. For the record, 1,000 minerals = 10 turrets lol. I suppose I did not specify how many that would be, just assumed you could do the math. As I described earlier, I think 10 is altogether excessive and a huge waste of resources on static defense.
not once have i EVER said 4-5 turrets per mineral line, did you fail reading 101 too?
did any one of my screenshots have 4-5 turrets in the mineral line? at most maybe 3?
i believe that you are unable to comprehend the discussion and hence you are misinterpreting the thread instead
I have said many times to start with 1 or 2 turrets and depending on unit comp (that you have scouted) increase numbers from there if the muta ball starts to pick up
not once have i ever said build 4-5 turrets per mineral line
neither have i ever stated to build 4 -5 turrets instantly when u scout the spire
nor have i stated to build blind turrets
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As a zerg, I'd most likely just drop 1-2 overlords of lings to clear out your turrets if you made this many and I for whatever reason wanted to stick with mutas. This is why (IMHO) a turret or two and a bunker is a more reasonable investment.
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On October 21 2011 07:20 Logick wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 02:22 Hider wrote:On October 21 2011 00:45 Logick wrote:On October 21 2011 00:19 Hider wrote:On October 21 2011 00:11 quantumslip wrote:
some people are missing big points in this thread
1) you don't build it all at once
2) scout before building
3) some people have the mentality that static D = bad (like for Protoss, OMG you built a cannon now you don't have 150 minerals for a zealot and a probe now), when in reality wise static D = good (seems like he's going air, I'll build turrets so my army can be more mobile)
How do you scout whether the zerg will have 15 mutas or 30 mutas in 30 seconds? You cant, and hence you need (according to how i understand op) to build up enough turrets to defend vs worst possible scenario (which is 30 mutas). Since there must be no weak angle, you need to make an insane amount of turrets, and hence you will never be able to produce enough mariens to attack. you determine the muta number by what his current army composition is if hes going muta-ling-bane then he will be pretty muta heavy if you see heavy roach, or ling infestor, or roach ling, etc, you will probably deal with light muta harass its the understanding of what unit composition your opponent is going for that determines your reaction.. these are really basic things I guess you just didnt get any of the points i was trying to bring across note that I say that the turrets should deter the mutas and even in a heavy clump of 25 mutas, if your opponent bothers to take out all 4 turrets, reinforcements would have arrived already to deal with them or while trying to take out the turrets to do more dmg to your base, you could move out for a timing you and other people seem to have the misconception that I'm saying "you have to make an insane amount of turrets to completely defend yourself against mutas" when in reality my point is, a few extra turrets will act as a good deterrence against small to medium size clumps, while against ridiculously big clumps it will buy you time and options to do counter attacks or defend your base Well you assume that you know your opponents exact unit composition through all the game, and this is just a wrong assumption, because of the larva-mechanicms. Anyway, OK as I understand you, you only want to "overbuild" turrets in early mid game (so no gradual increases?).But then the same problem arises. How do you attack if your opponent has 25 +2 mutas? Here the difference between 4 and 2 turrets is only like 0.5 seconds before those 2 extra turrets are dead. And then your main is vulnerabe. Why not (according to your logic) build gradually more turrets if you fear the zerg will have more than 15 mutas? As I see it there is barely any difference between having 2 turrets when opp has 10-15 mutas, and 4 turrets when opp has 25 mutas. wow dude how you arrived at the conclusion that the key is to overbuild? I'm sorry to have to say this but is your reading comprehension that terrible that you cant even get the points across? its stated SO MANY times thats you want to scout the composition before you decide on how many turrets you want to make, and that you WILL gradually increase turrets to match the muta count also a lot of people seem to have a one track mind that TvZ = marine tanks only @zmansman yes many pros do leave a thor at the mineral line but also many people tend to overvalue the use of a thor because they forget about the magic box - even if you mass repair youre gonna lose SCVs and eventually the thor while maybe killing only 1-3 mutas (depending on the muta ball)
You overbuild according to normal GSL terran players right?
Obv. this means that when the opponent has 25 mutas you build a shitton of turrets correct? You will prob need to have like 10 at main, 10 at natural and 10 at 3rd or so right?
"its stated SO MANY times thats you want to scout the composition before you decide on how many turrets you want to make"
At least the guy below me understood my point. I dont think you have any idea what I have been trying to say for quite a while: YOU CANT SCOUT EXACT UNIT COMPOSITION AND REACT TO IT IN TIME. ITS IMPOSSIBLE!!!
WHY???
Because you dont know if 15 mtuas or 40 lings are popping out of his larva, and this changes everything according to having the optimal amount of turrets.
This is the problem with the guide. You aren't a high level player and there are so many factors that you haven't even considered (and even when i try to adress some of whem you have no clue what I am talking about).
Producing a lot of turrets might actually be benefical if your a mid level player (plat-low master), but at higher level of play this is not optimal.
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you're not overbuilding turrets to exactly match the muta count so that you can completely negate the mutas
you're building extra turrets to prevent any possibly harass from mutas (and by extra it means another 2 to the 2 that you've already built
and if the muta ball gets big until maybe 25-30 4 turrets is still an OK number because it if he bothers to take them all out he would already have taken a lot of dmg and reinforcing troops would have arrived by then
as for scouting:
unless your opponent is blind and just decides to make 40 lings i dont see how you do not understand what i have been trying to say
unit composition:
- scout scout his unit composition by his structures
- is he getting baneling speed?
- is he getting muta upgrades
- how many lings does he have
- how many mutas does he currently have
- is there a roach warren
- is he going roaches?
all this gives u the little details about his unit composition that he might possibly going on
and coupled with some game sense (i guess you dont have much of a game sense since you automatically assume that because or larvae mechanics u automatically will not know ever know what unit composition he is trying to go for)
edit: you're not scouting his larvae to see what pops out of it but rather his current army, OBVIOUSLY if he has a maybe 10 mutas and ling bane that hes going muta-ling-bane and not muta-ling-bane + random roaches
you're not scanning his hatcheries or his larvae for information you're scanning his buildings and his army for information
P.S. I'm a mid lvl masters on SEA
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a lot of people seem to assume that this is blind. one of his main points was that it isnt blind, it would be based off of what you scout. at about 8-10 mutas, you dont really need 2482374982374 turrets. its when the ball gets really big (15-20) that you start throwing down more turrets and getting the upgrades.
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and heres how you are going to achieve it:
You're not going to build, 1 turret, not 2, but 3 and maybe even 4 turrets by your mineral line/production facilities
Logik what is this?
This is the very 4 turrets that I describe... and well, you described 
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On October 21 2011 05:12 D_K_night wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2011 11:41 kofman wrote:
In your guide, I see you are getting +1 range before your infantry upgrades... As much as you seem to love turrets, I think thats a little overkill...
Sorry, but this guide is pretty useless. Every terran knows that you need turrets against mutas, and I think everyone knew that as the muta clump gets bigger, you need more turrets... but people don't know that, and that's why the guide is valid. How many times you have you seen masters and above Terran players have only a single turret in the middle of their mineral line? happens all the time. and if the guide was so useless, you wouldn't even be responding to this. so obviously there is value but you are trying to downrank it, while injecting little to no value of your own.
People know it, its just that people forget. This guide wont help anybody remember.
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On October 21 2011 11:52 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +
and heres how you are going to achieve it:
You're not going to build, 1 turret, not 2, but 3 and maybe even 4 turrets by your mineral line/production facilities
Logik what is this? This is the very 4 turrets that I describe... and well, you described
Yeah. He did say 4 turrets, but KEY WORDS "maybe even 4 turrets" MAYBE. And he even said this, "you aren't going to immediately just drop down 4 turrets just for the sake of it". Also he said, "you should scout out timing of the spire + the unit composition your enemy is going for before you decide how".
Seriously.... did anyone read this carefully because this made sense to me.
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On October 21 2011 11:52 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +
and heres how you are going to achieve it:
You're not going to build, 1 turret, not 2, but 3 and maybe even 4 turrets by your mineral line/production facilities
Logik what is this? This is the very 4 turrets that I describe... and well, you described
the keyword there being bolded
there is a vast difference between maybe making 4 turrets
and
you're making 4-5 turrets at each mineral line
VAST difference
On October 21 2011 12:09 kofman wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 05:12 D_K_night wrote:On October 20 2011 11:41 kofman wrote:
In your guide, I see you are getting +1 range before your infantry upgrades... As much as you seem to love turrets, I think thats a little overkill...
Sorry, but this guide is pretty useless. Every terran knows that you need turrets against mutas, and I think everyone knew that as the muta clump gets bigger, you need more turrets... but people don't know that, and that's why the guide is valid. How many times you have you seen masters and above Terran players have only a single turret in the middle of their mineral line? happens all the time. and if the guide was so useless, you wouldn't even be responding to this. so obviously there is value but you are trying to downrank it, while injecting little to no value of your own. People know it, its just that people forget. This guide wont help anybody remember.
it doesnt explain the fact that people know it and yet they still build 1 turret to defend a flock of 10-15 mutas only to have to rebuild that same one maybe 3 - 4 times
by saying people just forget is a total understatement
its like saying, oh i know i have to wipe my butt after i take a dump but i forget
and then u "forget" the next 10 times it happens and you wonder why you got stains on your diapers
its not that people are forgetting they just dont do it
and then some whine "OH mutas are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO annoying and totally OP"
edit: ah the guy above me already did the whole "maybe" thing oh well
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If you were to go for a fast 3 OC build or something you would turtle up while going for your 2/1 timing push while taking a 4th. For a build like this you would make a lot of turrets before your push because they would have a big muta flock by then. Until this time you use marines and your first few to defend.
After that push you will start banking and thats when u can make more bases +macro OC's + more turrets if required.
If you're going for 2 base timing push into 3rd with constant army trading, such as 2 fac bf into 2 fac tank, the zerg has to fall back with mutas to defend your push so turrets are less important.
So many words to say nothing at all...
All this thread is saying is make turrets when u see more mutas which is stupid as fuck -.-
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On October 21 2011 13:03 justjuice wrote:
So many words to say nothing at all...
All this thread is saying is make turrets when u see more mutas which is stupid as fuck -.-
This is exactly what I'm saying. Be prepared to receive hate from the OP.
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On October 21 2011 12:23 moonizzle wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 11:52 zmansman17 wrote:
and heres how you are going to achieve it:
You're not going to build, 1 turret, not 2, but 3 and maybe even 4 turrets by your mineral line/production facilities
Logik what is this? This is the very 4 turrets that I describe... and well, you described Yeah. He did say 4 turrets, but KEY WORDS "maybe even 4 turrets" MAYBE. And he even said this, "you aren't going to immediately just drop down 4 turrets just for the sake of it". Also he said, "you should scout out timing of the spire + the unit composition your enemy is going for before you decide how". Seriously.... did anyone read this carefully because this made sense to me.
hmm your first post-- are you sure Logic didnt make you to respond to this for him lol
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On October 21 2011 14:03 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2011 12:23 moonizzle wrote:On October 21 2011 11:52 zmansman17 wrote:
and heres how you are going to achieve it:
You're not going to build, 1 turret, not 2, but 3 and maybe even 4 turrets by your mineral line/production facilities
Logik what is this? This is the very 4 turrets that I describe... and well, you described Yeah. He did say 4 turrets, but KEY WORDS "maybe even 4 turrets" MAYBE. And he even said this, "you aren't going to immediately just drop down 4 turrets just for the sake of it". Also he said, "you should scout out timing of the spire + the unit composition your enemy is going for before you decide how". Seriously.... did anyone read this carefully because this made sense to me. hmm your first post-- are you sure Logic didnt make you to respond to this for him lol
sorry I don't as much time to waste as to make a new account and then make a post using an entirely different speech pattern to mine to convince people
maybe you might do something like that, but not me
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YOU CANT SCOUT EXACT UNIT COMPOSITION AND REACT TO IT IN TIME. ITS IMPOSSIBLE!!!
This
Ps. mid master in sea is nothing . . .
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if you want to know how to play vs muta harass you should watch game 3 bomber vs idra on antiga at mlg.
first you scan to see if z goes muta (in idra's case he always does anyway)
then build a few at importants places in your base and use marines to defend.
when muta number grows you start making more and more turrets and when you want to push out either leave some marines at home or leave a thor at home.
thankfully mutas are really that good in straight up fights vs marines and thors so when you have your base defended well enough all you need is to force him to engage your main army where you reduce the muta number and then you can focus on doing more drops / tech to counter Z T3 units
ps. of course you can scout if he goes mass muta or not, you have scans and he will keep flying in your base to harass so you'll know if muta number grows. thats why you have marines to defend until you want to push out
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Wait... I'm high diamond so excuse my carelessness, but do terrans really not get the HI-Sec Auto Tracking upgrade most situations? In the Zerg's shoes +1 range turrets are scary, and +1 range PF? Psha, that's just awesome!
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On October 22 2011 09:26 Fairchild wrote:
Wait... I'm high diamond so excuse my carelessness, but do terrans really not get the HI-Sec Auto Tracking upgrade most situations? In the Zerg's shoes +1 range turrets are scary, and +1 range PF? Psha, that's just awesome!
They don't get it early, I am certain about that. Infantry upgrades are more important, and once you start one, it's preferable that you follow it up with +2 then +3 as opposed to stopping to get Turret/PF range. Guess you could get it with a third engineering bay while pumping upgrades if you wanted to, but I don't see Terrans doing that either.
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the one common misconception is to assume that in TvZ you automatically go marine tank
as you can see from about 90% of the posts people are worried about bio upgrades
but in response to fairchild, yes indeed +1 turret range actually makes a huge difference
8 range + 24dmg every 0.86 seconds (thats the normal marine attack speed) coupled by a few extra turrets will be scary enough to deter most muta harass
seeing as how mutas have only 3 range, they are already at a 5 range deficit and will take way more dmg before doing any dmg
heres a decent example of turret deterrence:
http://www.mediafire.com/?cx11cwu44jslzde
- around the 13min mark his mutas fly into my base and achieves absolutely no dmg at all except killing one SCV. he loses 3-4 mutas instead
- at 23:50 mark, he flys 30 mutas into my main, with 3 turrets guarding my production structures
- literally in seconds, 1 muta goes down, and shortly after 2 more before all 3 turrets die
- by that time my reinforcing units have already arrived to deal with the mutas
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This is good for low level games, but in higher level games you will need the minerals to make more units. A few turrets is enough to temporarily hold off mutas while your marines run back to defend. Marines can then pressure hard and force the production of other units instead of mutas to prevent the mutas from coming in and killing your base.
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EPT
