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On October 11 2024 02:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2024 12:40 goody153 wrote:
Zero expectations for current blizzard on the new game. They manage to screw up almost every IP they have including ones with great release.
And newer games ? Doubtful I have to agree. The way they butchered both Stacraft and Warcraft lore and universes flavors with WC3 and SC2 really makes me want to stay as far away as possible from any new entries in the franchise. Seeing Kerrigan become a space superheroe fighting Space Thanos with mega powers was enough for me.
WC3 was foundational for like the next 25 years of Warcraft lore and is pretty beloved by everyone, so that's an interesting take.
SC2.. yeah fair enough. I was always a fan of the gameplay, more so than WC3, but the story just got worse and worse.
I don't think either has much relevance, Blizzard is not who it was 20 years ago.
As for a Starcraft shooter, the world is still pretty rich, and there's plenty of characters people love that could feature. I don't think they would ever make an FPS game that you needed to play LotV to understand. And the game would likely play along the lines of Helldivers or SM2. Blizzard don't make games that are just stories or campaigns out of the box, they have to be online, live service, and monetised.
The fact they already have 2 Starcraft shooters on the shelf that were apparently good and fun, should in theory make development an easier one in terms of level design and gameplay at least. It would be strange to not reuse unreleased ideas.
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On October 11 2024 08:24 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2024 02:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 10 2024 12:40 goody153 wrote:
Zero expectations for current blizzard on the new game. They manage to screw up almost every IP they have including ones with great release.
And newer games ? Doubtful I have to agree. The way they butchered both Stacraft and Warcraft lore and universes flavors with WC3 and SC2 really makes me want to stay as far away as possible from any new entries in the franchise. Seeing Kerrigan become a space superheroe fighting Space Thanos with mega powers was enough for me. WC3 was foundational for like the next 25 years of Warcraft lore and is pretty beloved by everyone, so that's an interesting take. SC2.. yeah fair enough. I was always a fan of the gameplay, more so than WC3, but the story just got worse and worse. I don't think either has much relevance, Blizzard is not who it was 20 years ago. As for a Starcraft shooter, the world is still pretty rich, and there's plenty of characters people love that could feature. I don't think they would ever make an FPS game that you needed to play LotV to understand. And the game would likely play along the lines of Helldivers or SM2. Blizzard don't make games that are just stories or campaigns out of the box, they have to be online, live service, and monetised. The fact they already have 2 Starcraft shooters on the shelf that were apparently good and fun, should in theory make development an easier one in terms of level design and gameplay at least. It would be strange to not reuse unreleased ideas.
How is SM2 monetized btw? Haven't played it
My guess is still they go with a Destiny kinda game because it has a grindable "endgame" which can easily be monetized additionally to cosmetics and stuff with Pay 2 Progress faster mechanics
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I guess this is the time when people who have never played FPS games, play FPS games lol, that was my first thought.
I'm hoping it will be fun!
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United States12240 Posts
On October 11 2024 04:17 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2024 02:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 10 2024 12:40 goody153 wrote:
Zero expectations for current blizzard on the new game. They manage to screw up almost every IP they have including ones with great release.
And newer games ? Doubtful I have to agree. The way they butchered both Stacraft and Warcraft lore and universes flavors with WC3 and SC2 really makes me want to stay as far away as possible from any new entries in the franchise. Seeing Kerrigan become a space superheroe fighting Space Thanos with mega powers was enough for me. They butchered the Warcraft-Lore with WC3? That is...honestly a new take, never seen that before.
I can remember a lot of people being annoyed in 2002 that the game was a rehash of the Kerrigan corruption arc, how they didn't like anything about Kalimdor (which iirc up to that point hadn't been invented, as "Azeroth" was the name of the so-called "Eastern Kingdoms" continent which comprised the entire world in War2), they thought the Night Elves were stupid, they thought the climactic Burning Legion engagement was stupid, they hated that Archimonde died to Wisps. And then the Frozen Throne expansion added a lot more weirdness and plot holes like the Forsaken, the Blood Elves, the Draenei (which we now know was all just a precursor to World of Warcraft). So it definitely had its detractors for its time, and I think it's only widely accepted now because WoW was such a departure and took it in increasingly wild directions that War3 looks tame by comparison (also, I think now there's a nostalgic element where children who played the campaign are now adults so it was a formative experience for them).
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On October 11 2024 23:44 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2024 04:17 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 02:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 10 2024 12:40 goody153 wrote:
Zero expectations for current blizzard on the new game. They manage to screw up almost every IP they have including ones with great release.
And newer games ? Doubtful I have to agree. The way they butchered both Stacraft and Warcraft lore and universes flavors with WC3 and SC2 really makes me want to stay as far away as possible from any new entries in the franchise. Seeing Kerrigan become a space superheroe fighting Space Thanos with mega powers was enough for me. They butchered the Warcraft-Lore with WC3? That is...honestly a new take, never seen that before. I can remember a lot of people being annoyed in 2002 that the game was a rehash of the Kerrigan corruption arc, how they didn't like anything about Kalimdor (which iirc up to that point hadn't been invented, as "Azeroth" was the name of the so-called "Eastern Kingdoms" continent which comprised the entire world in War2), they thought the Night Elves were stupid, they thought the climactic Burning Legion engagement was stupid, they hated that Archimonde died to Wisps. And then the Frozen Throne expansion added a lot more weirdness and plot holes like the Forsaken, the Blood Elves, the Draenei (which we now know was all just a precursor to World of Warcraft). So it definitely had its detractors for its time, and I think it's only widely accepted now because WoW was such a departure and took it in increasingly wild directions that War3 looks tame by comparison (also, I think now there's a nostalgic element where children who played the campaign are now adults so it was a formative experience for them).
I mean sure, WC3 was a clear departure from WC2. The world getting bigger (Azeroth switched from the name of a kingdom to the name of the continent to the name of the world lol), more races, the Horde becoming more nuanced and of course there actually being a "true story" instead of the option to decide the fate of the world as a player.
But in all my years in the WC3 community I really can't remember there being much dissent over the campaign or people being unhappy with it. Would also strongly disagree that Arthas is a "rehash" of Kerrigan. Very different story arcs...Kerrigan doesn't even really has an arc, she just kind of becomes the QoB tbh. Also not quite sure why the Forsaken, Blood Elves or Draenei would be "plot holes"?
You could also make the strong argument (though I love the WC2 campaign btw) that WC3 truely lifted Warcraft to a "real fantasy world" instead of just a Warhammer clone, helping it to become its own distinct thing.
Makes me wonder if these are the reasons that circulated the BW community back then so they wouldn't switch?
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On October 12 2024 00:16 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2024 23:44 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 11 2024 04:17 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 02:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 10 2024 12:40 goody153 wrote:
Zero expectations for current blizzard on the new game. They manage to screw up almost every IP they have including ones with great release.
And newer games ? Doubtful I have to agree. The way they butchered both Stacraft and Warcraft lore and universes flavors with WC3 and SC2 really makes me want to stay as far away as possible from any new entries in the franchise. Seeing Kerrigan become a space superheroe fighting Space Thanos with mega powers was enough for me. They butchered the Warcraft-Lore with WC3? That is...honestly a new take, never seen that before. I can remember a lot of people being annoyed in 2002 that the game was a rehash of the Kerrigan corruption arc, how they didn't like anything about Kalimdor (which iirc up to that point hadn't been invented, as "Azeroth" was the name of the so-called "Eastern Kingdoms" continent which comprised the entire world in War2), they thought the Night Elves were stupid, they thought the climactic Burning Legion engagement was stupid, they hated that Archimonde died to Wisps. And then the Frozen Throne expansion added a lot more weirdness and plot holes like the Forsaken, the Blood Elves, the Draenei (which we now know was all just a precursor to World of Warcraft). So it definitely had its detractors for its time, and I think it's only widely accepted now because WoW was such a departure and took it in increasingly wild directions that War3 looks tame by comparison (also, I think now there's a nostalgic element where children who played the campaign are now adults so it was a formative experience for them). I mean sure, WC3 was a clear departure from WC2. The world getting bigger (Azeroth switched from the name of a kingdom to the name of the continent to the name of the world lol), more races, the Horde becoming more nuanced and of course there actually being a "true story" instead of the option to decide the fate of the world as a player. But in all my years in the WC3 community I really can't remember there being much dissent over the campaign or people being unhappy with it. Would also strongly disagree that Arthas is a "rehash" of Kerrigan. Very different story arcs...Kerrigan doesn't even really has an arc, she just kind of becomes the QoB tbh. Also not quite sure why the Forsaken, Blood Elves or Draenei would be "plot holes"? You could also make the strong argument (though I love the WC2 campaign btw) that WC3 truely lifted Warcraft to a "real fantasy world" instead of just a Warhammer clone, helping it to become its own distinct thing. Makes me wonder if these are the reasons that circulated the BW community back then so they wouldn't switch?
They strike me purely as arguments from a WC1/2 purist and not much more besides.
Maybe it’s a more widespread sentiment than I realise, personally I thought they did a good job expanding that world in 3.
The eco changed and heroes I imagine kept more people from switching than anything in the narrative
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United States12240 Posts
On October 12 2024 00:16 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2024 23:44 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 11 2024 04:17 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 02:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 10 2024 12:40 goody153 wrote:
Zero expectations for current blizzard on the new game. They manage to screw up almost every IP they have including ones with great release.
And newer games ? Doubtful I have to agree. The way they butchered both Stacraft and Warcraft lore and universes flavors with WC3 and SC2 really makes me want to stay as far away as possible from any new entries in the franchise. Seeing Kerrigan become a space superheroe fighting Space Thanos with mega powers was enough for me. They butchered the Warcraft-Lore with WC3? That is...honestly a new take, never seen that before. I can remember a lot of people being annoyed in 2002 that the game was a rehash of the Kerrigan corruption arc, how they didn't like anything about Kalimdor (which iirc up to that point hadn't been invented, as "Azeroth" was the name of the so-called "Eastern Kingdoms" continent which comprised the entire world in War2), they thought the Night Elves were stupid, they thought the climactic Burning Legion engagement was stupid, they hated that Archimonde died to Wisps. And then the Frozen Throne expansion added a lot more weirdness and plot holes like the Forsaken, the Blood Elves, the Draenei (which we now know was all just a precursor to World of Warcraft). So it definitely had its detractors for its time, and I think it's only widely accepted now because WoW was such a departure and took it in increasingly wild directions that War3 looks tame by comparison (also, I think now there's a nostalgic element where children who played the campaign are now adults so it was a formative experience for them). I mean sure, WC3 was a clear departure from WC2. The world getting bigger (Azeroth switched from the name of a kingdom to the name of the continent to the name of the world lol), more races, the Horde becoming more nuanced and of course there actually being a "true story" instead of the option to decide the fate of the world as a player. But in all my years in the WC3 community I really can't remember there being much dissent over the campaign or people being unhappy with it. Would also strongly disagree that Arthas is a "rehash" of Kerrigan. Very different story arcs...Kerrigan doesn't even really has an arc, she just kind of becomes the QoB tbh. Also not quite sure why the Forsaken, Blood Elves or Draenei would be "plot holes"? You could also make the strong argument (though I love the WC2 campaign btw) that WC3 truely lifted Warcraft to a "real fantasy world" instead of just a Warhammer clone, helping it to become its own distinct thing. Makes me wonder if these are the reasons that circulated the BW community back then so they wouldn't switch?
I agree that War3 expanded the world in a favorable way. The expansion even at the time I thought took strange narrative turns that I didn't understand, but then you realize "ohhh Undead are a playable race in WoW, this is why this happened.... ohhh Blood Elves will be a playable race in WoW, that's why that sequence of events happened" so they make sense retrospectively.
But a lot of those other arguments are really just purist nonsense. Yeah maybe there was some weirdness here and there, yeah maybe some aspects were more silly (which paved the way for future WoW silliness, until the point where you as a cosmic hero are reduced to going on quests picking up literal poop), but the worldbuilding introduced in War3 massively contributed to the world becoming believable.
I wasn't dialed in to the discourse during the BW announcement and beta, so I don't know what things people hated back then, but I'm sure there was plenty! I mostly remember people hating the BW balance back in the day and thinking that DTs Lurkers and Corsairs destroyed the game balance irreparably.
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I was a hardcore Warcraft fan and definitely don't remember there being widespread dissent about its storyline until WoW started to change things that were already set in stone. Same thing happened in SC2 where it seemed like the writing teams never played/watched the earlier RTS or had a basic understanding of the underlying lore. I'm mostly looking at you, Heart of the Swarm with your "primal zerg". *nerd scoffs*. But yeah, WC3 did a great job expanding and building on the lore whereas WoW subtly changed a lot of it, seemingly by mistake, which is a big difference.
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On October 12 2024 04:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2024 00:16 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 23:44 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 11 2024 04:17 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 02:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 10 2024 12:40 goody153 wrote:
Zero expectations for current blizzard on the new game. They manage to screw up almost every IP they have including ones with great release.
And newer games ? Doubtful I have to agree. The way they butchered both Stacraft and Warcraft lore and universes flavors with WC3 and SC2 really makes me want to stay as far away as possible from any new entries in the franchise. Seeing Kerrigan become a space superheroe fighting Space Thanos with mega powers was enough for me. They butchered the Warcraft-Lore with WC3? That is...honestly a new take, never seen that before. I can remember a lot of people being annoyed in 2002 that the game was a rehash of the Kerrigan corruption arc, how they didn't like anything about Kalimdor (which iirc up to that point hadn't been invented, as "Azeroth" was the name of the so-called "Eastern Kingdoms" continent which comprised the entire world in War2), they thought the Night Elves were stupid, they thought the climactic Burning Legion engagement was stupid, they hated that Archimonde died to Wisps. And then the Frozen Throne expansion added a lot more weirdness and plot holes like the Forsaken, the Blood Elves, the Draenei (which we now know was all just a precursor to World of Warcraft). So it definitely had its detractors for its time, and I think it's only widely accepted now because WoW was such a departure and took it in increasingly wild directions that War3 looks tame by comparison (also, I think now there's a nostalgic element where children who played the campaign are now adults so it was a formative experience for them). I mean sure, WC3 was a clear departure from WC2. The world getting bigger (Azeroth switched from the name of a kingdom to the name of the continent to the name of the world lol), more races, the Horde becoming more nuanced and of course there actually being a "true story" instead of the option to decide the fate of the world as a player. But in all my years in the WC3 community I really can't remember there being much dissent over the campaign or people being unhappy with it. Would also strongly disagree that Arthas is a "rehash" of Kerrigan. Very different story arcs...Kerrigan doesn't even really has an arc, she just kind of becomes the QoB tbh. Also not quite sure why the Forsaken, Blood Elves or Draenei would be "plot holes"? You could also make the strong argument (though I love the WC2 campaign btw) that WC3 truely lifted Warcraft to a "real fantasy world" instead of just a Warhammer clone, helping it to become its own distinct thing. Makes me wonder if these are the reasons that circulated the BW community back then so they wouldn't switch? I agree that War3 expanded the world in a favorable way. The expansion even at the time I thought took strange narrative turns that I didn't understand, but then you realize "ohhh Undead are a playable race in WoW, this is why this happened.... ohhh Blood Elves will be a playable race in WoW, that's why that sequence of events happened" so they make sense retrospectively. But a lot of those other arguments are really just purist nonsense. Yeah maybe there was some weirdness here and there, yeah maybe some aspects were more silly (which paved the way for future WoW silliness, until the point where you as a cosmic hero are reduced to going on quests picking up literal poop), but the worldbuilding introduced in War3 massively contributed to the world becoming believable. I wasn't dialed in to the discourse during the BW announcement and beta, so I don't know what things people hated back then, but I'm sure there was plenty! I mostly remember people hating the BW balance back in the day and thinking that DTs Lurkers and Corsairs destroyed the game balance irreparably.
What on earth are you talking about? There is absolutely no way the Frozen Throne story was planned out with WoW in mind. Just.. 0. Draenei were completely retconned in the Burning Crusade (which is also when Blood Elves were retconned and became playable as Horde). And that is just one of many early WoW retcons.
Basically, if WC3 was built with the WoW story planned out, they wouldn't have had to retcon so much.
I'm not criticising either. The early WoW retcons put gameplay ahead of faithful following of the lore, and generally make sense from that perspective. And while the WC3 plot wasn't particularly novel, it was an amazing campaign, and the Frozen Throne was a very cool addition to the plot and the world.
That said, Blizzard went completely haywire somewhere around Pandaria for WoW, when they decide the established lore is more of a rough guideline than an actual history of Azeroth, and that's about when I stopped playing, so luckily I don't even know about the complete utter bollocks they made up for Sylvanas in Shadowlands 
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On October 13 2024 20:21 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2024 04:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 12 2024 00:16 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 23:44 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 11 2024 04:17 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 02:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 10 2024 12:40 goody153 wrote:
Zero expectations for current blizzard on the new game. They manage to screw up almost every IP they have including ones with great release.
And newer games ? Doubtful I have to agree. The way they butchered both Stacraft and Warcraft lore and universes flavors with WC3 and SC2 really makes me want to stay as far away as possible from any new entries in the franchise. Seeing Kerrigan become a space superheroe fighting Space Thanos with mega powers was enough for me. They butchered the Warcraft-Lore with WC3? That is...honestly a new take, never seen that before. I can remember a lot of people being annoyed in 2002 that the game was a rehash of the Kerrigan corruption arc, how they didn't like anything about Kalimdor (which iirc up to that point hadn't been invented, as "Azeroth" was the name of the so-called "Eastern Kingdoms" continent which comprised the entire world in War2), they thought the Night Elves were stupid, they thought the climactic Burning Legion engagement was stupid, they hated that Archimonde died to Wisps. And then the Frozen Throne expansion added a lot more weirdness and plot holes like the Forsaken, the Blood Elves, the Draenei (which we now know was all just a precursor to World of Warcraft). So it definitely had its detractors for its time, and I think it's only widely accepted now because WoW was such a departure and took it in increasingly wild directions that War3 looks tame by comparison (also, I think now there's a nostalgic element where children who played the campaign are now adults so it was a formative experience for them). I mean sure, WC3 was a clear departure from WC2. The world getting bigger (Azeroth switched from the name of a kingdom to the name of the continent to the name of the world lol), more races, the Horde becoming more nuanced and of course there actually being a "true story" instead of the option to decide the fate of the world as a player. But in all my years in the WC3 community I really can't remember there being much dissent over the campaign or people being unhappy with it. Would also strongly disagree that Arthas is a "rehash" of Kerrigan. Very different story arcs...Kerrigan doesn't even really has an arc, she just kind of becomes the QoB tbh. Also not quite sure why the Forsaken, Blood Elves or Draenei would be "plot holes"? You could also make the strong argument (though I love the WC2 campaign btw) that WC3 truely lifted Warcraft to a "real fantasy world" instead of just a Warhammer clone, helping it to become its own distinct thing. Makes me wonder if these are the reasons that circulated the BW community back then so they wouldn't switch? I agree that War3 expanded the world in a favorable way. The expansion even at the time I thought took strange narrative turns that I didn't understand, but then you realize "ohhh Undead are a playable race in WoW, this is why this happened.... ohhh Blood Elves will be a playable race in WoW, that's why that sequence of events happened" so they make sense retrospectively. But a lot of those other arguments are really just purist nonsense. Yeah maybe there was some weirdness here and there, yeah maybe some aspects were more silly (which paved the way for future WoW silliness, until the point where you as a cosmic hero are reduced to going on quests picking up literal poop), but the worldbuilding introduced in War3 massively contributed to the world becoming believable. I wasn't dialed in to the discourse during the BW announcement and beta, so I don't know what things people hated back then, but I'm sure there was plenty! I mostly remember people hating the BW balance back in the day and thinking that DTs Lurkers and Corsairs destroyed the game balance irreparably. What on earth are you talking about? There is absolutely no way the Frozen Throne story was planned out with WoW in mind. Just.. 0. Draenei were completely retconned in the Burning Crusade (which is also when Blood Elves were retconned and became playable as Horde). And that is just one of many early WoW retcons. Basically, if WC3 was built with the WoW story planned out, they wouldn't have had to retcon so much. I'm not criticising either. The early WoW retcons put gameplay ahead of faithful following of the lore, and generally make sense from that perspective. And while the WC3 plot wasn't particularly novel, it was an amazing campaign, and the Frozen Throne was a very cool addition to the plot and the world. That said, Blizzard went completely haywire somewhere around Pandaria for WoW, when they decide the established lore is more of a rough guideline than an actual history of Azeroth, and that's about when I stopped playing, so luckily I don't even know about the complete utter bollocks they made up for Sylvanas in Shadowlands
We know WoW needed various degrees of set up from War3, though it appears to be more broadstroke than actual in depth detail.
They needed War3 to be contained in its storyline such that WoW could serve as a starting point.
It seems clear they wanted Arthas to be the Lich King for future use, with Sylvanas forming her own Undead faction.
They needed Durotar to be formed which technically RoC managed, FT just confirmed it.
I'm still not convinced they intend for Illidan to survive, and just retconned things after the fact.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On October 13 2024 20:21 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2024 04:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 12 2024 00:16 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 23:44 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 11 2024 04:17 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 02:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 10 2024 12:40 goody153 wrote:
Zero expectations for current blizzard on the new game. They manage to screw up almost every IP they have including ones with great release.
And newer games ? Doubtful I have to agree. The way they butchered both Stacraft and Warcraft lore and universes flavors with WC3 and SC2 really makes me want to stay as far away as possible from any new entries in the franchise. Seeing Kerrigan become a space superheroe fighting Space Thanos with mega powers was enough for me. They butchered the Warcraft-Lore with WC3? That is...honestly a new take, never seen that before. I can remember a lot of people being annoyed in 2002 that the game was a rehash of the Kerrigan corruption arc, how they didn't like anything about Kalimdor (which iirc up to that point hadn't been invented, as "Azeroth" was the name of the so-called "Eastern Kingdoms" continent which comprised the entire world in War2), they thought the Night Elves were stupid, they thought the climactic Burning Legion engagement was stupid, they hated that Archimonde died to Wisps. And then the Frozen Throne expansion added a lot more weirdness and plot holes like the Forsaken, the Blood Elves, the Draenei (which we now know was all just a precursor to World of Warcraft). So it definitely had its detractors for its time, and I think it's only widely accepted now because WoW was such a departure and took it in increasingly wild directions that War3 looks tame by comparison (also, I think now there's a nostalgic element where children who played the campaign are now adults so it was a formative experience for them). I mean sure, WC3 was a clear departure from WC2. The world getting bigger (Azeroth switched from the name of a kingdom to the name of the continent to the name of the world lol), more races, the Horde becoming more nuanced and of course there actually being a "true story" instead of the option to decide the fate of the world as a player. But in all my years in the WC3 community I really can't remember there being much dissent over the campaign or people being unhappy with it. Would also strongly disagree that Arthas is a "rehash" of Kerrigan. Very different story arcs...Kerrigan doesn't even really has an arc, she just kind of becomes the QoB tbh. Also not quite sure why the Forsaken, Blood Elves or Draenei would be "plot holes"? You could also make the strong argument (though I love the WC2 campaign btw) that WC3 truely lifted Warcraft to a "real fantasy world" instead of just a Warhammer clone, helping it to become its own distinct thing. Makes me wonder if these are the reasons that circulated the BW community back then so they wouldn't switch? I agree that War3 expanded the world in a favorable way. The expansion even at the time I thought took strange narrative turns that I didn't understand, but then you realize "ohhh Undead are a playable race in WoW, this is why this happened.... ohhh Blood Elves will be a playable race in WoW, that's why that sequence of events happened" so they make sense retrospectively. But a lot of those other arguments are really just purist nonsense. Yeah maybe there was some weirdness here and there, yeah maybe some aspects were more silly (which paved the way for future WoW silliness, until the point where you as a cosmic hero are reduced to going on quests picking up literal poop), but the worldbuilding introduced in War3 massively contributed to the world becoming believable. I wasn't dialed in to the discourse during the BW announcement and beta, so I don't know what things people hated back then, but I'm sure there was plenty! I mostly remember people hating the BW balance back in the day and thinking that DTs Lurkers and Corsairs destroyed the game balance irreparably. What on earth are you talking about? There is absolutely no way the Frozen Throne story was planned out with WoW in mind. Just.. 0. Draenei were completely retconned in the Burning Crusade (which is also when Blood Elves were retconned and became playable as Horde). And that is just one of many early WoW retcons. Basically, if WC3 was built with the WoW story planned out, they wouldn't have had to retcon so much. I'm not criticising either. The early WoW retcons put gameplay ahead of faithful following of the lore, and generally make sense from that perspective. And while the WC3 plot wasn't particularly novel, it was an amazing campaign, and the Frozen Throne was a very cool addition to the plot and the world. That said, Blizzard went completely haywire somewhere around Pandaria for WoW, when they decide the established lore is more of a rough guideline than an actual history of Azeroth, and that's about when I stopped playing, so luckily I don't even know about the complete utter bollocks they made up for Sylvanas in Shadowlands
I’m just heartened the phrase ‘bollocks’ is gaining more traction outside of its traditional heartlands on here! Who said flinging out colloquialisms is as a waste of time?
Yeah agreed, I didn’t like many of the WC3 to WoW retcons at the time but they did certainly aid gameplay. Although why do Dranaei look completely different? I quite enjoyed their kinda distinctive, somewhat gross appearance in WC3
WC3 needed to make changes to enable what it was trying to do and jumping from 2 factions to 4. It also laid groundwork for WoW there certainly, I’ve yet to see evidence that it was the intent though.
UD come in and fit the whole slave of demons shtick which was previously the Orc’s domain, so you tweak the Orcs a bit accordingly. Then you add in the Night Elves to fit the classic fantasy elves trope, and give them some new continent to explain why they haven’t featured up til now. High elves get their own storyline to explain why they’re a subject peoples etc.
They’re all pretty decent changes IMO, the writing isn’t going to win Oscars but it’s pretty darn solid for an RTS campaign.
WC3 maybe didn’t have to succeed for Blizz to really pull the trigger on WoW, but there’s perhaps a level of failure that would have given them pause too. So I’m not sure Blizzard would be making potentially divisive changes if they didn’t think them good ideas for that title in isolation
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WC3 TFT was released 1 year and four months before WoW came out, so I think we can say with absolute certainty that atleast TFT had some thoughts for WoW in mind. RoC probably not, considering that if RoC would have failed hard, WoW wouldn't be a thing.
But I don't think they had an absolute clear checklist, like "we need these 25 things in TFT for WoW". As someone said, it was more broadstroke. While they definetly set up things like the Forsaken, they also had some storylines just "being there". The "Faceless" for example were clearly not fully fleshed out in TFT to become a major plotpoint in WoW with C'thun. And the entire thing around the Trolls and Murlocs and the "Deep Sea Witch" basically never led to anything to my knowledge.
Probably the only part of the campaign that was "100% WoW" is the Founding of Durotar. Would explain why the 2nd and 3rd mission came later aswell.
I'm still not convinced they intend for Illidan to survive, and just retconned things after the fact.
I vaguely remember that even around TFT it was always hinted that Illidan was carried away and was now "Hiding in Outland, trying to keep the Portals closed". Btw Outlands, funfact: The german translation for Outlands changed from TFT to WoW. In TFT it was called "Fremdland" ("Stranger land"), in WoW it changed to "Scherbenwelt" ("Broken World").
Yeah agreed, I didn’t like many of the WC3 to WoW retcons at the time but they did certainly aid gameplay. Although why do Dranaei look completely different? I quite enjoyed their kinda distinctive, somewhat gross appearance in WC3
The Draenei we encounter in WC3 are those who stayed on Draenor/Outlands. In the Release Trailer for Black Temple we can see that the Draenei who stayed slowly were corrupted by the demonic influence, like a sickness. That is why Akama and co. look so transformed, while the Draenei we can play (aka. the ones on Azeroth) look still healthy. And the new look was probably necessary to implement that the Draenei and the Eredar are the same people - they atleast need to look-alike. If you would have told me in WC3 that Akama and Archimonde are from the same species, I would have cursed at you...
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United States12240 Posts
On October 13 2024 21:47 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2024 20:21 Acrofales wrote:On October 12 2024 04:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 12 2024 00:16 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 23:44 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 11 2024 04:17 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 02:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 10 2024 12:40 goody153 wrote:
Zero expectations for current blizzard on the new game. They manage to screw up almost every IP they have including ones with great release.
And newer games ? Doubtful I have to agree. The way they butchered both Stacraft and Warcraft lore and universes flavors with WC3 and SC2 really makes me want to stay as far away as possible from any new entries in the franchise. Seeing Kerrigan become a space superheroe fighting Space Thanos with mega powers was enough for me. They butchered the Warcraft-Lore with WC3? That is...honestly a new take, never seen that before. I can remember a lot of people being annoyed in 2002 that the game was a rehash of the Kerrigan corruption arc, how they didn't like anything about Kalimdor (which iirc up to that point hadn't been invented, as "Azeroth" was the name of the so-called "Eastern Kingdoms" continent which comprised the entire world in War2), they thought the Night Elves were stupid, they thought the climactic Burning Legion engagement was stupid, they hated that Archimonde died to Wisps. And then the Frozen Throne expansion added a lot more weirdness and plot holes like the Forsaken, the Blood Elves, the Draenei (which we now know was all just a precursor to World of Warcraft). So it definitely had its detractors for its time, and I think it's only widely accepted now because WoW was such a departure and took it in increasingly wild directions that War3 looks tame by comparison (also, I think now there's a nostalgic element where children who played the campaign are now adults so it was a formative experience for them). I mean sure, WC3 was a clear departure from WC2. The world getting bigger (Azeroth switched from the name of a kingdom to the name of the continent to the name of the world lol), more races, the Horde becoming more nuanced and of course there actually being a "true story" instead of the option to decide the fate of the world as a player. But in all my years in the WC3 community I really can't remember there being much dissent over the campaign or people being unhappy with it. Would also strongly disagree that Arthas is a "rehash" of Kerrigan. Very different story arcs...Kerrigan doesn't even really has an arc, she just kind of becomes the QoB tbh. Also not quite sure why the Forsaken, Blood Elves or Draenei would be "plot holes"? You could also make the strong argument (though I love the WC2 campaign btw) that WC3 truely lifted Warcraft to a "real fantasy world" instead of just a Warhammer clone, helping it to become its own distinct thing. Makes me wonder if these are the reasons that circulated the BW community back then so they wouldn't switch? I agree that War3 expanded the world in a favorable way. The expansion even at the time I thought took strange narrative turns that I didn't understand, but then you realize "ohhh Undead are a playable race in WoW, this is why this happened.... ohhh Blood Elves will be a playable race in WoW, that's why that sequence of events happened" so they make sense retrospectively. But a lot of those other arguments are really just purist nonsense. Yeah maybe there was some weirdness here and there, yeah maybe some aspects were more silly (which paved the way for future WoW silliness, until the point where you as a cosmic hero are reduced to going on quests picking up literal poop), but the worldbuilding introduced in War3 massively contributed to the world becoming believable. I wasn't dialed in to the discourse during the BW announcement and beta, so I don't know what things people hated back then, but I'm sure there was plenty! I mostly remember people hating the BW balance back in the day and thinking that DTs Lurkers and Corsairs destroyed the game balance irreparably. What on earth are you talking about? There is absolutely no way the Frozen Throne story was planned out with WoW in mind. Just.. 0. Draenei were completely retconned in the Burning Crusade (which is also when Blood Elves were retconned and became playable as Horde). And that is just one of many early WoW retcons. Basically, if WC3 was built with the WoW story planned out, they wouldn't have had to retcon so much. I'm not criticising either. The early WoW retcons put gameplay ahead of faithful following of the lore, and generally make sense from that perspective. And while the WC3 plot wasn't particularly novel, it was an amazing campaign, and the Frozen Throne was a very cool addition to the plot and the world. That said, Blizzard went completely haywire somewhere around Pandaria for WoW, when they decide the established lore is more of a rough guideline than an actual history of Azeroth, and that's about when I stopped playing, so luckily I don't even know about the complete utter bollocks they made up for Sylvanas in Shadowlands I’m just heartened the phrase ‘bollocks’ is gaining more traction outside of its traditional heartlands on here! Who said flinging out colloquialisms is as a waste of time? Yeah agreed, I didn’t like many of the WC3 to WoW retcons at the time but they did certainly aid gameplay. Although why do Dranaei look completely different? I quite enjoyed their kinda distinctive, somewhat gross appearance in WC3 WC3 needed to make changes to enable what it was trying to do and jumping from 2 factions to 4. It also laid groundwork for WoW there certainly, I’ve yet to see evidence that it was the intent though. UD come in and fit the whole slave of demons shtick which was previously the Orc’s domain, so you tweak the Orcs a bit accordingly. Then you add in the Night Elves to fit the classic fantasy elves trope, and give them some new continent to explain why they haven’t featured up til now. High elves get their own storyline to explain why they’re a subject peoples etc. They’re all pretty decent changes IMO, the writing isn’t going to win Oscars but it’s pretty darn solid for an RTS campaign. WC3 maybe didn’t have to succeed for Blizz to really pull the trigger on WoW, but there’s perhaps a level of failure that would have given them pause too. So I’m not sure Blizzard would be making potentially divisive changes if they didn’t think them good ideas for that title in isolation
The Draenei retcon is easily explained: nobody wanted to play as the ugliest race in the game, particularly not among the aesthetically-oriented Alliance.
And don't forget that WoW started development in 1999, with its announcement in 2001 (War3 began in 1998). The storyline for War3 surely influenced the geography and set pieces for WoW, but the existence of WoW in turn imposed certain demands for the Frozen Throne storyline.
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On October 13 2024 23:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2024 21:47 WombaT wrote:On October 13 2024 20:21 Acrofales wrote:On October 12 2024 04:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 12 2024 00:16 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 23:44 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 11 2024 04:17 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 02:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 10 2024 12:40 goody153 wrote:
Zero expectations for current blizzard on the new game. They manage to screw up almost every IP they have including ones with great release.
And newer games ? Doubtful I have to agree. The way they butchered both Stacraft and Warcraft lore and universes flavors with WC3 and SC2 really makes me want to stay as far away as possible from any new entries in the franchise. Seeing Kerrigan become a space superheroe fighting Space Thanos with mega powers was enough for me. They butchered the Warcraft-Lore with WC3? That is...honestly a new take, never seen that before. I can remember a lot of people being annoyed in 2002 that the game was a rehash of the Kerrigan corruption arc, how they didn't like anything about Kalimdor (which iirc up to that point hadn't been invented, as "Azeroth" was the name of the so-called "Eastern Kingdoms" continent which comprised the entire world in War2), they thought the Night Elves were stupid, they thought the climactic Burning Legion engagement was stupid, they hated that Archimonde died to Wisps. And then the Frozen Throne expansion added a lot more weirdness and plot holes like the Forsaken, the Blood Elves, the Draenei (which we now know was all just a precursor to World of Warcraft). So it definitely had its detractors for its time, and I think it's only widely accepted now because WoW was such a departure and took it in increasingly wild directions that War3 looks tame by comparison (also, I think now there's a nostalgic element where children who played the campaign are now adults so it was a formative experience for them). I mean sure, WC3 was a clear departure from WC2. The world getting bigger (Azeroth switched from the name of a kingdom to the name of the continent to the name of the world lol), more races, the Horde becoming more nuanced and of course there actually being a "true story" instead of the option to decide the fate of the world as a player. But in all my years in the WC3 community I really can't remember there being much dissent over the campaign or people being unhappy with it. Would also strongly disagree that Arthas is a "rehash" of Kerrigan. Very different story arcs...Kerrigan doesn't even really has an arc, she just kind of becomes the QoB tbh. Also not quite sure why the Forsaken, Blood Elves or Draenei would be "plot holes"? You could also make the strong argument (though I love the WC2 campaign btw) that WC3 truely lifted Warcraft to a "real fantasy world" instead of just a Warhammer clone, helping it to become its own distinct thing. Makes me wonder if these are the reasons that circulated the BW community back then so they wouldn't switch? I agree that War3 expanded the world in a favorable way. The expansion even at the time I thought took strange narrative turns that I didn't understand, but then you realize "ohhh Undead are a playable race in WoW, this is why this happened.... ohhh Blood Elves will be a playable race in WoW, that's why that sequence of events happened" so they make sense retrospectively. But a lot of those other arguments are really just purist nonsense. Yeah maybe there was some weirdness here and there, yeah maybe some aspects were more silly (which paved the way for future WoW silliness, until the point where you as a cosmic hero are reduced to going on quests picking up literal poop), but the worldbuilding introduced in War3 massively contributed to the world becoming believable. I wasn't dialed in to the discourse during the BW announcement and beta, so I don't know what things people hated back then, but I'm sure there was plenty! I mostly remember people hating the BW balance back in the day and thinking that DTs Lurkers and Corsairs destroyed the game balance irreparably. What on earth are you talking about? There is absolutely no way the Frozen Throne story was planned out with WoW in mind. Just.. 0. Draenei were completely retconned in the Burning Crusade (which is also when Blood Elves were retconned and became playable as Horde). And that is just one of many early WoW retcons. Basically, if WC3 was built with the WoW story planned out, they wouldn't have had to retcon so much. I'm not criticising either. The early WoW retcons put gameplay ahead of faithful following of the lore, and generally make sense from that perspective. And while the WC3 plot wasn't particularly novel, it was an amazing campaign, and the Frozen Throne was a very cool addition to the plot and the world. That said, Blizzard went completely haywire somewhere around Pandaria for WoW, when they decide the established lore is more of a rough guideline than an actual history of Azeroth, and that's about when I stopped playing, so luckily I don't even know about the complete utter bollocks they made up for Sylvanas in Shadowlands I’m just heartened the phrase ‘bollocks’ is gaining more traction outside of its traditional heartlands on here! Who said flinging out colloquialisms is as a waste of time? Yeah agreed, I didn’t like many of the WC3 to WoW retcons at the time but they did certainly aid gameplay. Although why do Dranaei look completely different? I quite enjoyed their kinda distinctive, somewhat gross appearance in WC3 WC3 needed to make changes to enable what it was trying to do and jumping from 2 factions to 4. It also laid groundwork for WoW there certainly, I’ve yet to see evidence that it was the intent though. UD come in and fit the whole slave of demons shtick which was previously the Orc’s domain, so you tweak the Orcs a bit accordingly. Then you add in the Night Elves to fit the classic fantasy elves trope, and give them some new continent to explain why they haven’t featured up til now. High elves get their own storyline to explain why they’re a subject peoples etc. They’re all pretty decent changes IMO, the writing isn’t going to win Oscars but it’s pretty darn solid for an RTS campaign. WC3 maybe didn’t have to succeed for Blizz to really pull the trigger on WoW, but there’s perhaps a level of failure that would have given them pause too. So I’m not sure Blizzard would be making potentially divisive changes if they didn’t think them good ideas for that title in isolation The Draenei retcon is easily explained: nobody wanted to play as the ugliest race in the game, particularly not among the aesthetically-oriented Alliance. And don't forget that WoW started development in 1999, with its announcement in 2001 (War3 began in 1998). The storyline for War3 surely influenced the geography and set pieces for WoW, but the existence of WoW in turn imposed certain demands for the Frozen Throne storyline.
And both incorporated the Warcraft Adventures storyline as canon. But the reality is that WoW was a very risky product. MMORPGs before then and also since, have basically been massive money drains except for the very few that were major cash cows. EverQuest 2 was known to be under development, as well as some other promising competitors like Guild Wars and LotR online. WC3 was a far less risky project and I'm willing to bet the RoC campaign line, world, etc. was planned out and written without any regard for WoW. The TF story probably has more concessions to WoW's ongoing development: mostly the existence of forsaken and the founding of Durotar. Although the communication between teams is clearly still not fully present: Rexxar was a huge part of the founding of Durotar, and entirely absent from all of WoW classic except as a minor inconsequential quest giver in 1k needles (I think it was there).
Neset Hemingwary had a bigger and more memorable role than Rexxar in classic WoW.
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On October 13 2024 23:57 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2024 23:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 13 2024 21:47 WombaT wrote:On October 13 2024 20:21 Acrofales wrote:On October 12 2024 04:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 12 2024 00:16 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 23:44 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 11 2024 04:17 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 02:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 10 2024 12:40 goody153 wrote:
Zero expectations for current blizzard on the new game. They manage to screw up almost every IP they have including ones with great release.
And newer games ? Doubtful I have to agree. The way they butchered both Stacraft and Warcraft lore and universes flavors with WC3 and SC2 really makes me want to stay as far away as possible from any new entries in the franchise. Seeing Kerrigan become a space superheroe fighting Space Thanos with mega powers was enough for me. They butchered the Warcraft-Lore with WC3? That is...honestly a new take, never seen that before. I can remember a lot of people being annoyed in 2002 that the game was a rehash of the Kerrigan corruption arc, how they didn't like anything about Kalimdor (which iirc up to that point hadn't been invented, as "Azeroth" was the name of the so-called "Eastern Kingdoms" continent which comprised the entire world in War2), they thought the Night Elves were stupid, they thought the climactic Burning Legion engagement was stupid, they hated that Archimonde died to Wisps. And then the Frozen Throne expansion added a lot more weirdness and plot holes like the Forsaken, the Blood Elves, the Draenei (which we now know was all just a precursor to World of Warcraft). So it definitely had its detractors for its time, and I think it's only widely accepted now because WoW was such a departure and took it in increasingly wild directions that War3 looks tame by comparison (also, I think now there's a nostalgic element where children who played the campaign are now adults so it was a formative experience for them). I mean sure, WC3 was a clear departure from WC2. The world getting bigger (Azeroth switched from the name of a kingdom to the name of the continent to the name of the world lol), more races, the Horde becoming more nuanced and of course there actually being a "true story" instead of the option to decide the fate of the world as a player. But in all my years in the WC3 community I really can't remember there being much dissent over the campaign or people being unhappy with it. Would also strongly disagree that Arthas is a "rehash" of Kerrigan. Very different story arcs...Kerrigan doesn't even really has an arc, she just kind of becomes the QoB tbh. Also not quite sure why the Forsaken, Blood Elves or Draenei would be "plot holes"? You could also make the strong argument (though I love the WC2 campaign btw) that WC3 truely lifted Warcraft to a "real fantasy world" instead of just a Warhammer clone, helping it to become its own distinct thing. Makes me wonder if these are the reasons that circulated the BW community back then so they wouldn't switch? I agree that War3 expanded the world in a favorable way. The expansion even at the time I thought took strange narrative turns that I didn't understand, but then you realize "ohhh Undead are a playable race in WoW, this is why this happened.... ohhh Blood Elves will be a playable race in WoW, that's why that sequence of events happened" so they make sense retrospectively. But a lot of those other arguments are really just purist nonsense. Yeah maybe there was some weirdness here and there, yeah maybe some aspects were more silly (which paved the way for future WoW silliness, until the point where you as a cosmic hero are reduced to going on quests picking up literal poop), but the worldbuilding introduced in War3 massively contributed to the world becoming believable. I wasn't dialed in to the discourse during the BW announcement and beta, so I don't know what things people hated back then, but I'm sure there was plenty! I mostly remember people hating the BW balance back in the day and thinking that DTs Lurkers and Corsairs destroyed the game balance irreparably. What on earth are you talking about? There is absolutely no way the Frozen Throne story was planned out with WoW in mind. Just.. 0. Draenei were completely retconned in the Burning Crusade (which is also when Blood Elves were retconned and became playable as Horde). And that is just one of many early WoW retcons. Basically, if WC3 was built with the WoW story planned out, they wouldn't have had to retcon so much. I'm not criticising either. The early WoW retcons put gameplay ahead of faithful following of the lore, and generally make sense from that perspective. And while the WC3 plot wasn't particularly novel, it was an amazing campaign, and the Frozen Throne was a very cool addition to the plot and the world. That said, Blizzard went completely haywire somewhere around Pandaria for WoW, when they decide the established lore is more of a rough guideline than an actual history of Azeroth, and that's about when I stopped playing, so luckily I don't even know about the complete utter bollocks they made up for Sylvanas in Shadowlands I’m just heartened the phrase ‘bollocks’ is gaining more traction outside of its traditional heartlands on here! Who said flinging out colloquialisms is as a waste of time? Yeah agreed, I didn’t like many of the WC3 to WoW retcons at the time but they did certainly aid gameplay. Although why do Dranaei look completely different? I quite enjoyed their kinda distinctive, somewhat gross appearance in WC3 WC3 needed to make changes to enable what it was trying to do and jumping from 2 factions to 4. It also laid groundwork for WoW there certainly, I’ve yet to see evidence that it was the intent though. UD come in and fit the whole slave of demons shtick which was previously the Orc’s domain, so you tweak the Orcs a bit accordingly. Then you add in the Night Elves to fit the classic fantasy elves trope, and give them some new continent to explain why they haven’t featured up til now. High elves get their own storyline to explain why they’re a subject peoples etc. They’re all pretty decent changes IMO, the writing isn’t going to win Oscars but it’s pretty darn solid for an RTS campaign. WC3 maybe didn’t have to succeed for Blizz to really pull the trigger on WoW, but there’s perhaps a level of failure that would have given them pause too. So I’m not sure Blizzard would be making potentially divisive changes if they didn’t think them good ideas for that title in isolation The Draenei retcon is easily explained: nobody wanted to play as the ugliest race in the game, particularly not among the aesthetically-oriented Alliance. And don't forget that WoW started development in 1999, with its announcement in 2001 (War3 began in 1998). The storyline for War3 surely influenced the geography and set pieces for WoW, but the existence of WoW in turn imposed certain demands for the Frozen Throne storyline. And both incorporated the Warcraft Adventures storyline as canon. But the reality is that WoW was a very risky product. MMORPGs before then and also since, have basically been massive money drains except for the very few that were major cash cows. EverQuest 2 was known to be under development, as well as some other promising competitors like Guild Wars and LotR online. WC3 was a far less risky project and I'm willing to bet the RoC campaign line, world, etc. was planned out and written without any regard for WoW. The TF story probably has more concessions to WoW's ongoing development: mostly the existence of forsaken and the founding of Durotar. Although the communication between teams is clearly still not fully present: Rexxar was a huge part of the founding of Durotar, and entirely absent from all of WoW classic except as a minor inconsequential quest giver in 1k needles (I think it was there). Neset Hemingwary had a bigger and more memorable role than Rexxar in classic WoW.
Rexxar specifically was a last minute addition to FT. There was initially planned to not be *any* Orc campaign but a lead (Sigaty?) pushed for it to have something and have gameplay that would ease players into the WoW transition
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On October 13 2024 23:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2024 21:47 WombaT wrote:On October 13 2024 20:21 Acrofales wrote:On October 12 2024 04:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 12 2024 00:16 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 23:44 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 11 2024 04:17 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 02:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 10 2024 12:40 goody153 wrote:
Zero expectations for current blizzard on the new game. They manage to screw up almost every IP they have including ones with great release.
And newer games ? Doubtful I have to agree. The way they butchered both Stacraft and Warcraft lore and universes flavors with WC3 and SC2 really makes me want to stay as far away as possible from any new entries in the franchise. Seeing Kerrigan become a space superheroe fighting Space Thanos with mega powers was enough for me. They butchered the Warcraft-Lore with WC3? That is...honestly a new take, never seen that before. I can remember a lot of people being annoyed in 2002 that the game was a rehash of the Kerrigan corruption arc, how they didn't like anything about Kalimdor (which iirc up to that point hadn't been invented, as "Azeroth" was the name of the so-called "Eastern Kingdoms" continent which comprised the entire world in War2), they thought the Night Elves were stupid, they thought the climactic Burning Legion engagement was stupid, they hated that Archimonde died to Wisps. And then the Frozen Throne expansion added a lot more weirdness and plot holes like the Forsaken, the Blood Elves, the Draenei (which we now know was all just a precursor to World of Warcraft). So it definitely had its detractors for its time, and I think it's only widely accepted now because WoW was such a departure and took it in increasingly wild directions that War3 looks tame by comparison (also, I think now there's a nostalgic element where children who played the campaign are now adults so it was a formative experience for them). I mean sure, WC3 was a clear departure from WC2. The world getting bigger (Azeroth switched from the name of a kingdom to the name of the continent to the name of the world lol), more races, the Horde becoming more nuanced and of course there actually being a "true story" instead of the option to decide the fate of the world as a player. But in all my years in the WC3 community I really can't remember there being much dissent over the campaign or people being unhappy with it. Would also strongly disagree that Arthas is a "rehash" of Kerrigan. Very different story arcs...Kerrigan doesn't even really has an arc, she just kind of becomes the QoB tbh. Also not quite sure why the Forsaken, Blood Elves or Draenei would be "plot holes"? You could also make the strong argument (though I love the WC2 campaign btw) that WC3 truely lifted Warcraft to a "real fantasy world" instead of just a Warhammer clone, helping it to become its own distinct thing. Makes me wonder if these are the reasons that circulated the BW community back then so they wouldn't switch? I agree that War3 expanded the world in a favorable way. The expansion even at the time I thought took strange narrative turns that I didn't understand, but then you realize "ohhh Undead are a playable race in WoW, this is why this happened.... ohhh Blood Elves will be a playable race in WoW, that's why that sequence of events happened" so they make sense retrospectively. But a lot of those other arguments are really just purist nonsense. Yeah maybe there was some weirdness here and there, yeah maybe some aspects were more silly (which paved the way for future WoW silliness, until the point where you as a cosmic hero are reduced to going on quests picking up literal poop), but the worldbuilding introduced in War3 massively contributed to the world becoming believable. I wasn't dialed in to the discourse during the BW announcement and beta, so I don't know what things people hated back then, but I'm sure there was plenty! I mostly remember people hating the BW balance back in the day and thinking that DTs Lurkers and Corsairs destroyed the game balance irreparably. What on earth are you talking about? There is absolutely no way the Frozen Throne story was planned out with WoW in mind. Just.. 0. Draenei were completely retconned in the Burning Crusade (which is also when Blood Elves were retconned and became playable as Horde). And that is just one of many early WoW retcons. Basically, if WC3 was built with the WoW story planned out, they wouldn't have had to retcon so much. I'm not criticising either. The early WoW retcons put gameplay ahead of faithful following of the lore, and generally make sense from that perspective. And while the WC3 plot wasn't particularly novel, it was an amazing campaign, and the Frozen Throne was a very cool addition to the plot and the world. That said, Blizzard went completely haywire somewhere around Pandaria for WoW, when they decide the established lore is more of a rough guideline than an actual history of Azeroth, and that's about when I stopped playing, so luckily I don't even know about the complete utter bollocks they made up for Sylvanas in Shadowlands I’m just heartened the phrase ‘bollocks’ is gaining more traction outside of its traditional heartlands on here! Who said flinging out colloquialisms is as a waste of time? Yeah agreed, I didn’t like many of the WC3 to WoW retcons at the time but they did certainly aid gameplay. Although why do Dranaei look completely different? I quite enjoyed their kinda distinctive, somewhat gross appearance in WC3 WC3 needed to make changes to enable what it was trying to do and jumping from 2 factions to 4. It also laid groundwork for WoW there certainly, I’ve yet to see evidence that it was the intent though. UD come in and fit the whole slave of demons shtick which was previously the Orc’s domain, so you tweak the Orcs a bit accordingly. Then you add in the Night Elves to fit the classic fantasy elves trope, and give them some new continent to explain why they haven’t featured up til now. High elves get their own storyline to explain why they’re a subject peoples etc. They’re all pretty decent changes IMO, the writing isn’t going to win Oscars but it’s pretty darn solid for an RTS campaign. WC3 maybe didn’t have to succeed for Blizz to really pull the trigger on WoW, but there’s perhaps a level of failure that would have given them pause too. So I’m not sure Blizzard would be making potentially divisive changes if they didn’t think them good ideas for that title in isolation The Draenei retcon is easily explained: nobody wanted to play as the ugliest race in the game, particularly not among the aesthetically-oriented Alliance. And don't forget that WoW started development in 1999, with its announcement in 2001 (War3 began in 1998). The storyline for War3 surely influenced the geography and set pieces for WoW, but the existence of WoW in turn imposed certain demands for the Frozen Throne storyline.
You're touching on a weird contradiction I've noticed in a lot of fantasy MMOs.
Do you want to make a distinct race or...... a race people will actually play?
I think most people rather do the latter so we're stuck with way 20 varieties of elves and less distinct races.
It's been twenty years, but I still wish we had gotten the Broken Dranei design. To me, that would have made TBC kinda interesting. Horde gets paladins + a "pretty race", and alliance gets a "monster" race + shamans.
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Northern Ireland26265 Posts
On October 21 2024 21:19 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2024 23:35 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 13 2024 21:47 WombaT wrote:On October 13 2024 20:21 Acrofales wrote:On October 12 2024 04:45 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 12 2024 00:16 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 23:44 Excalibur_Z wrote:On October 11 2024 04:17 Balnazza wrote:On October 11 2024 02:07 Biff The Understudy wrote:On October 10 2024 12:40 goody153 wrote:
Zero expectations for current blizzard on the new game. They manage to screw up almost every IP they have including ones with great release.
And newer games ? Doubtful I have to agree. The way they butchered both Stacraft and Warcraft lore and universes flavors with WC3 and SC2 really makes me want to stay as far away as possible from any new entries in the franchise. Seeing Kerrigan become a space superheroe fighting Space Thanos with mega powers was enough for me. They butchered the Warcraft-Lore with WC3? That is...honestly a new take, never seen that before. I can remember a lot of people being annoyed in 2002 that the game was a rehash of the Kerrigan corruption arc, how they didn't like anything about Kalimdor (which iirc up to that point hadn't been invented, as "Azeroth" was the name of the so-called "Eastern Kingdoms" continent which comprised the entire world in War2), they thought the Night Elves were stupid, they thought the climactic Burning Legion engagement was stupid, they hated that Archimonde died to Wisps. And then the Frozen Throne expansion added a lot more weirdness and plot holes like the Forsaken, the Blood Elves, the Draenei (which we now know was all just a precursor to World of Warcraft). So it definitely had its detractors for its time, and I think it's only widely accepted now because WoW was such a departure and took it in increasingly wild directions that War3 looks tame by comparison (also, I think now there's a nostalgic element where children who played the campaign are now adults so it was a formative experience for them). I mean sure, WC3 was a clear departure from WC2. The world getting bigger (Azeroth switched from the name of a kingdom to the name of the continent to the name of the world lol), more races, the Horde becoming more nuanced and of course there actually being a "true story" instead of the option to decide the fate of the world as a player. But in all my years in the WC3 community I really can't remember there being much dissent over the campaign or people being unhappy with it. Would also strongly disagree that Arthas is a "rehash" of Kerrigan. Very different story arcs...Kerrigan doesn't even really has an arc, she just kind of becomes the QoB tbh. Also not quite sure why the Forsaken, Blood Elves or Draenei would be "plot holes"? You could also make the strong argument (though I love the WC2 campaign btw) that WC3 truely lifted Warcraft to a "real fantasy world" instead of just a Warhammer clone, helping it to become its own distinct thing. Makes me wonder if these are the reasons that circulated the BW community back then so they wouldn't switch? I agree that War3 expanded the world in a favorable way. The expansion even at the time I thought took strange narrative turns that I didn't understand, but then you realize "ohhh Undead are a playable race in WoW, this is why this happened.... ohhh Blood Elves will be a playable race in WoW, that's why that sequence of events happened" so they make sense retrospectively. But a lot of those other arguments are really just purist nonsense. Yeah maybe there was some weirdness here and there, yeah maybe some aspects were more silly (which paved the way for future WoW silliness, until the point where you as a cosmic hero are reduced to going on quests picking up literal poop), but the worldbuilding introduced in War3 massively contributed to the world becoming believable. I wasn't dialed in to the discourse during the BW announcement and beta, so I don't know what things people hated back then, but I'm sure there was plenty! I mostly remember people hating the BW balance back in the day and thinking that DTs Lurkers and Corsairs destroyed the game balance irreparably. What on earth are you talking about? There is absolutely no way the Frozen Throne story was planned out with WoW in mind. Just.. 0. Draenei were completely retconned in the Burning Crusade (which is also when Blood Elves were retconned and became playable as Horde). And that is just one of many early WoW retcons. Basically, if WC3 was built with the WoW story planned out, they wouldn't have had to retcon so much. I'm not criticising either. The early WoW retcons put gameplay ahead of faithful following of the lore, and generally make sense from that perspective. And while the WC3 plot wasn't particularly novel, it was an amazing campaign, and the Frozen Throne was a very cool addition to the plot and the world. That said, Blizzard went completely haywire somewhere around Pandaria for WoW, when they decide the established lore is more of a rough guideline than an actual history of Azeroth, and that's about when I stopped playing, so luckily I don't even know about the complete utter bollocks they made up for Sylvanas in Shadowlands I’m just heartened the phrase ‘bollocks’ is gaining more traction outside of its traditional heartlands on here! Who said flinging out colloquialisms is as a waste of time? Yeah agreed, I didn’t like many of the WC3 to WoW retcons at the time but they did certainly aid gameplay. Although why do Dranaei look completely different? I quite enjoyed their kinda distinctive, somewhat gross appearance in WC3 WC3 needed to make changes to enable what it was trying to do and jumping from 2 factions to 4. It also laid groundwork for WoW there certainly, I’ve yet to see evidence that it was the intent though. UD come in and fit the whole slave of demons shtick which was previously the Orc’s domain, so you tweak the Orcs a bit accordingly. Then you add in the Night Elves to fit the classic fantasy elves trope, and give them some new continent to explain why they haven’t featured up til now. High elves get their own storyline to explain why they’re a subject peoples etc. They’re all pretty decent changes IMO, the writing isn’t going to win Oscars but it’s pretty darn solid for an RTS campaign. WC3 maybe didn’t have to succeed for Blizz to really pull the trigger on WoW, but there’s perhaps a level of failure that would have given them pause too. So I’m not sure Blizzard would be making potentially divisive changes if they didn’t think them good ideas for that title in isolation The Draenei retcon is easily explained: nobody wanted to play as the ugliest race in the game, particularly not among the aesthetically-oriented Alliance. And don't forget that WoW started development in 1999, with its announcement in 2001 (War3 began in 1998). The storyline for War3 surely influenced the geography and set pieces for WoW, but the existence of WoW in turn imposed certain demands for the Frozen Throne storyline. You're touching on a weird contradiction I've noticed in a lot of fantasy MMOs. Do you want to make a distinct race or...... a race people will actually play? I think most people rather do the latter so we're stuck with way 20 varieties of elves and less distinct races. It's been twenty years, but I still wish we had gotten the Broken Dranei design. To me, that would have made TBC kinda interesting. Horde gets paladins + a "pretty race", and alliance gets a "monster" race + shamans.
Aye agreed 100%
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