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On December 11 2011 16:52 Ownos wrote:
I'm... not sure if people are reading the graphs right. Especially the terran whiners... not sure how you can be pessimistic about your race when there's a big blue line hovering over everything else in any graph with a blue line lol.
Euhm, it's not about the lines?
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On December 11 2011 17:28 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 16:52 Ownos wrote:
I'm... not sure if people are reading the graphs right. Especially the terran whiners... not sure how you can be pessimistic about your race when there's a big blue line hovering over everything else in any graph with a blue line lol. Euhm, it's not about the lines?
well it's also about the lines. The lines show the 3month trend. The bars show the 1month trend.
While if makes sense to do so, using one month as unit for the bar is just as arbitrary as using 1week or 3months would be.
On December 11 2011 16:24 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 16:13 freetgy wrote:On December 11 2011 14:53 K3Nyy wrote:
I really disagree. Terrans especially in the lower leagues have been complaining about TvP lategame for a longgggggggg time. This balance patch and the winrates basically let them justify their whining further.
Some of what they say is justified in my opinion, especially the ease of late game Protoss vs Terran. but it's just very annoying to see whining all over the threads.
this will never change, as long as Terran stays on Bio till lategame. you can't have the advantage in early mid and lategame by staying with essentially the same core composition from the beginning. Obviously splash will kick in on the protoss side more on more and make the life harder for the Bio player. no balance patch will change that. lol, what else is the terran supposed to do? o.O
well first off all, Terran wins a lot in the lategame with biocompositions, though I don't have any stats to know how many games really. A lot of it comes down to how many medivacs and ghosts you have in your composition at that time (the high Tier bio units), just like a zerg or Protoss that can max on roach/ling or zealot/stalker really fast, marine/marauder without the big flock of medivacs and the EMP-carpet isn't very efficient. Also 3/3 upgrades are obligatory (which I believe a lot of lower league Terrans have trouble with, as unlike Protoss and Zergs, Terran does not have a superpopular upgrade build right now which would teach people "that's how you do it!")
Second of all, if the stats show that the game is balanced (which they don't) and if there is really a "lategame imbalance" (which I haven't seen any stats of), then you should just complain as hard about Terran being "imbalanced" in the early game (there is no other way that the game could be balanced otherwise).
Also as low league player it is really easy to play Mech vs Protoss or just go to the strategy section and watch out for that "TvP pure Air"-guide, if you feel like bio isn't good enough lategame.
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The ability for terran to make strong early-game allins will continually mean that their early game is too strong. If blizzard tries to bring that closer to balance in the early game by nerfing or buffing units, of course it's going to make terran lategame suffer.
As a terran, I frequently complain about terran early game imba because it ruins my lategame, and I prefer to play macro heavy  .
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On December 10 2011 07:33 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 07:26 KingPwny wrote:Terran champions...yes that is all we we hear about. Terran so good when u are a skilled player. How about when ur not from korea? How about we look at race distribution from silver to masters: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/eu/1/all/14(lol @ 40 % zerg in GM, that says a lot I think!) Dya see how it's represented in EU? Could that be cos maybe Terran isn't OP and as hard or easy to play as other races? Well Zerg is more played than Terran overall in EU. Stats are similar starting down from Gold up to GM.
Distribution
R: 8.5% (21,303)
P: 32.2% (80,558)
T: 31.4% (78,459)
Z: 27.8% (69,554)
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Maybe this deserves its own thread, but I'm a bit lazy. 
As a Protoss I feel that chargelots can be a real pain for Terrans in late game, but I don't see a way to re-balance this situation (if needed) since the units involved are tier1/1.5.
May the solution for late-game TvP be the Reaper?
- with proper micro can take down endless amounts of zealots
- it is fantastic for harassment and tech-sniping, faster than medivacs (even more mobile in some maps), safer in certain situations (no feedback on medivacs and it is faster for storm dodging, it is zealot-proof in case of warp-in, etc)
- above all, it is balanceable. At the moment it has a very niche role which often overlaps with hellion's, it is maybe the only unit that can be totally reworked - and we know that will happen in HOTS. Moving it to tier 2/2.5/3 and/or redesign its stats shouldn't be a problem.
What do you guys think?
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On December 11 2011 20:30 Big G wrote:
May the solution for late-game TvP be the Reaper?
- with proper micro can take down endless amounts of zealots
- it is fantastic for harassment and tech-sniping, faster than medivacs (even more mobile in some maps), safer in certain situations (no feedback on medivacs and it is faster for storm dodging, it is zealot-proof in case of warp-in, etc)
- above all, it is balanceable. At the moment it has a very niche role which often overlaps with hellion's, it is maybe the only unit that can be totally reworked - and we know that will happen in HOTS. Moving it to tier 2/2.5/3 and/or redesign its stats shouldn't be a problem.
What do you guys think?
Cost alot dies in with a single colossi shot and easily stormed
1 Reaper = 2 Marauders in gase
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On December 11 2011 20:30 Big G wrote:Maybe this deserves its own thread, but I'm a bit lazy. As a Protoss I feel that chargelots can be a real pain for Terrans in late game, but I don't see a way to re-balance this situation (if needed) since the units involved are tier1/1.5. May the solution for late-game TvP be the Reaper? - with proper micro can take down endless amounts of zealots - it is fantastic for harassment and tech-sniping, faster than medivacs (even more mobile in some maps), safer in certain situations (no feedback on medivacs and it is faster for storm dodging, it is zealot-proof in case of warp-in, etc) - above all, it is balanceable. At the moment it has a very niche role which often overlaps with hellion's, it is maybe the only unit that can be totally reworked - and we know that will happen in HOTS. Moving it to tier 2/2.5/3 and/or redesign its stats shouldn't be a problem. What do you guys think?
TBH its not the charge lots, its because protoss mechanics late game are so much better than terran, the ability to warp in anywhere with a warp prism or pylon. The quicker renforcements from warp gates, the much better higher tech units that are much more viable, for terran you either go bio or mech, you can't hybrid the two like protoss has because all their ground unit upgrades fall in the same category.
Terran just needs a better late game army instead of bio but this won't happen until hots most likely because by default thors kinda suck against everything but stalkers, tanks kinda suck against everything period, and helions die in two seconds but have very good potential for harass but any equal skilled player can easily defend it.
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On December 11 2011 14:01 PlacidPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 04:26 Dalavita wrote:
If you're going to argue that protoss macro mechancis are harder because they have to go to a pylon to warp in, you also have to take into account how much easier it makes it to macro protoss when they can frontload all their production which allows them to get away with a lot less planning, have more units coming from the same structure or don't require tech labs or reactors set up properly, added to the fact that you can stack up warp gates as close as you want with no regard to base sim city or pathing blocking your units in.
Considering those advantages, I think having to look away from the battle to warp in is a small disadvantage, especially because of the way the protoss autopilot. 1. trapping units happens with gates in the early game and with robo. 2. It only frontloads their production the first time you warp in, also warp does not stack and if you miss your timing you're significantly behind so no we don't have more from the same structure. 3. terrans can queue so they don't lose any time and can do this when they have spare apm. 4. imagine if every time you engaged you had to mule 4-10 times to get troops instead of pressing 3 buttons while keeping your focus on the army I'm not arguing imbalance but more the lack of imbalance here.
1. If you get your first units trapped before you get warp gates up, that's a l2p issue. Robos are a lot less of an issue since you make far less of them in a game and can have them one space apart, space of which you got a lot more of compared to a terran. Try fitting in fifteen barracks with addons in your base compared to fifteen gateways and tell me which one's easier.
2. You frontload production every time you make them, which in turn means that you get the units required at the exact right time, rather than having to plan 40 seconds ahead. Also gateways have what? Five different units all of value to the main protoss composition that can come out of them. You do have more from gateways. Oh, and doesn't warp gates decrease the unit "build time" by five seconds to offset the lack of queueing?
3. As far as queueing being an advantage, if you hotkey your gateways you can keep track of their progress, allowing you to easily tell when they're ready and be at a pylon waiting one second ahead, losing practically no time. That's not even mentioning the big (x) warp gates ready-button that pops up telling you you have idle warp gates...
4. Gladly, if I didn't have to spend half a year kiting with my units.
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The TvP graph change accurately describes my slump in the matchup.
It's now my worst matchup by far, use to be quite good, I feel somewhat helpless late game in the matchup. -_-
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On December 11 2011 20:34 Sclol wrote:
Cost alot dies in with a single colossi shot and easily stormed
1 Reaper = 2 Marauders in gase
Thank you, capt. obvious. When I talked about the stats I didn't know that it costs 50 gas.
On December 11 2011 20:37 Raid wrote:
TBH its not the charge lots, its because protoss mechanics late game are so much better than terran, the ability to warp in anywhere with a warp prism or pylon. The quicker renforcements from warp gates, the much better higher tech units that are much more viable, for terran you either go bio or mech, you can't hybrid the two like protoss has because all their ground unit upgrades fall in the same category.
Terran just needs a better late game army instead of bio but this won't happen until hots most likely because by default thors kinda suck against everything but stalkers, tanks kinda suck against everything period, and helions die in two seconds but have very good potential for harass but any equal skilled player can easily defend it.
I know and I agree, but as of now warpgates won't change even in HOTS, while reapers will.
As I said, the point is: balancing tier 1/1.5 units is very hard*; design problems (warpgates, mech...) won't be solved at least before HOTS or even after; on the other hand, the reaper is somewhat unnecessary AND we know that Blizzard plans to rework it.
*ok, an example: zealots with 90hp/60s instead of 100/50. EMP does more damage and 90hp = 2 sniper rounds, upgrades 3/0/3 are less effective, etc. But this weakens the zealot in early game and in PvZ which is already a tough matchup.
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so terran have the highest win rate of all races almost every single month, like we didnt know that LOL
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On December 11 2011 19:43 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 07:33 ZenithM wrote:On December 10 2011 07:26 KingPwny wrote:Terran champions...yes that is all we we hear about. Terran so good when u are a skilled player. How about when ur not from korea? How about we look at race distribution from silver to masters: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/eu/1/all/14(lol @ 40 % zerg in GM, that says a lot I think!) Dya see how it's represented in EU? Could that be cos maybe Terran isn't OP and as hard or easy to play as other races? Well Zerg is more played than Terran overall in EU. Stats are similar starting down from Gold up to GM. Distribution R: 8.5% (21,303) P: 32.2% (80,558) T: 31.4% (78,459) Z: 27.8% (69,554)
I don't even know from where you pulled those numbers. According to his link (and sc2ranks in general), terran isn't nearly as much played as zerg or toss.
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On December 06 2011 00:05 Amornthep wrote:
It's been quite awhile since Terran had the lowest win rate eh?
And the amount of QQ about it (for just one month) is unbelievable...
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On December 09 2011 03:30 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2011 03:26 perestain wrote:
Appearantly zerg has a slight edge after the last patch,
otherwise winrates appear pretty symmetric in that p>t, z>p, and terran only doing slightly better than zerg. If maps will be a tiny bit less favorable for zerg it might be perfect.
To bad HOTS is around the corner to ruin everything again.
To be fair, HOTS will fix a lot of things that are wrong with SC2. Possibly to the point where we don't complain nearly as much about balance. We might get worse numbers, but it could end up being a better experience for players and spectators alike.
Well, thumbs up for the positive attitude, I certainly hope you're right.
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As a T player, this is me looking at the stats:
All the T matchups look like their headed in the right direction...
WOAH WTF PvZ.
I had no idea it was this bad... I now understand why the Sad Zealot fanclub emerged.
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That sad zealot thread came about because of endless ghost QQ'ing....
I LOL whenever I read these threads, the winrates dont necessarily mean the game is balanced. Is it fair that toss can A-move everywhere while a terran needs 300 APM and insane ghost micro to win? Is it balanced when a zerg can remax an army almost instantly? Not really....
These pros spend countless hours each day playing this game. They understand more than anyone where imbalance lies and exactly how to engage most circumstances. They have often come up with ways to get around an imbalanced situation which completely negates any kind of balance statistics for the pros. I still want to see the blizzard ladder results, I think those are more telling of which race is most imbalanced.
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On December 11 2011 19:15 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 17:28 doko100 wrote:On December 11 2011 16:52 Ownos wrote:
I'm... not sure if people are reading the graphs right. Especially the terran whiners... not sure how you can be pessimistic about your race when there's a big blue line hovering over everything else in any graph with a blue line lol. Euhm, it's not about the lines? well it's also about the lines. The lines show the 3month trend. The bars show the 1month trend. While if makes sense to do so, using one month as unit for the bar is just as arbitrary as using 1week or 3months would be. Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 16:24 doko100 wrote:On December 11 2011 16:13 freetgy wrote:On December 11 2011 14:53 K3Nyy wrote:
I really disagree. Terrans especially in the lower leagues have been complaining about TvP lategame for a longgggggggg time. This balance patch and the winrates basically let them justify their whining further.
Some of what they say is justified in my opinion, especially the ease of late game Protoss vs Terran. but it's just very annoying to see whining all over the threads.
this will never change, as long as Terran stays on Bio till lategame. you can't have the advantage in early mid and lategame by staying with essentially the same core composition from the beginning. Obviously splash will kick in on the protoss side more on more and make the life harder for the Bio player. no balance patch will change that. lol, what else is the terran supposed to do? o.O well first off all, Terran wins a lot in the lategame with biocompositions, though I don't have any stats to know how many games really. A lot of it comes down to how many medivacs and ghosts you have in your composition at that time (the high Tier bio units), just like a zerg or Protoss that can max on roach/ling or zealot/stalker really fast, marine/marauder without the big flock of medivacs and the EMP-carpet isn't very efficient. Also 3/3 upgrades are obligatory (which I believe a lot of lower league Terrans have trouble with, as unlike Protoss and Zergs, Terran does not have a superpopular upgrade build right now which would teach people "that's how you do it!") Second of all, if the stats show that the game is balanced (which they don't) and if there is really a "lategame imbalance" (which I haven't seen any stats of), then you should just complain as hard about Terran being "imbalanced" in the early game (there is no other way that the game could be balanced otherwise). Also as low league player it is really easy to play Mech vs Protoss or just go to the strategy section and watch out for that "TvP pure Air"-guide, if you feel like bio isn't good enough lategame.
Mech doesn't work vs. protoss in mid-master league+.
And you talk about terran upgrades, protoss has chronoboosts so their upgrades will always be faster, there is no point in even trying to argue that a terran could ever be ahead in upgrades. Unless the protoss just decides to not upgrade his units at all, which is his own fault.
edit: Also... Mech easy to play? Where did you pick that up? Trying to make Mech work vs. a competent protoss is nigh impossible and pretty much the hardest thing in the game.
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On December 12 2011 22:22 CaptainCrush wrote:
That sad zealot thread came about because of endless ghost QQ'ing....
I LOL whenever I read these threads, the winrates dont necessarily mean the game is balanced. Is it fair that toss can A-move everywhere while a terran needs 300 APM and insane ghost micro to win? Is it balanced when a zerg can remax an army almost instantly? Not really....
These pros spend countless hours each day playing this game. They understand more than anyone where imbalance lies and exactly how to engage most circumstances. They have often come up with ways to get around an imbalanced situation which completely negates any kind of balance statistics for the pros. I still want to see the blizzard ladder results, I think those are more telling of which race is most imbalanced.
You will be shocked by the result since Zerg is mostly favored and protoss are incredibly strong in high level. Terran are much more worse even the ladder maps 'favored' terran.
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On December 12 2011 02:07 Kwanny wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 19:43 keglu wrote:On December 10 2011 07:33 ZenithM wrote:On December 10 2011 07:26 KingPwny wrote:Terran champions...yes that is all we we hear about. Terran so good when u are a skilled player. How about when ur not from korea? How about we look at race distribution from silver to masters: http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/eu/1/all/14(lol @ 40 % zerg in GM, that says a lot I think!) Dya see how it's represented in EU? Could that be cos maybe Terran isn't OP and as hard or easy to play as other races? Well Zerg is more played than Terran overall in EU. Stats are similar starting down from Gold up to GM. Distribution R: 8.5% (21,303) P: 32.2% (80,558) T: 31.4% (78,459) Z: 27.8% (69,554) I don't even know from where you pulled those numbers. According to his link (and sc2ranks in general), terran isn't nearly as much played as zerg or toss.
Really?
http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/region/all/1/all
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Wow! Pretty balanced actually.
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EPT
