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On December 05 2011 23:52 Asmodeusz wrote:Ok... just for the people that think about dry stats pulled from TLPD as of something even remotely connected to balance of the game. It is not. Those stats say nothing about balance and 95% ppl can't understand it. Here's an example of why it's pretty much worthelss. Screenshot made today: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/22KVL.jpg)
haha, that one is pretty funny though, anyway we cant say that TLPD stats is correct, Jjakji recently destroyed Oz and Puzzle in code s to his way of winning it.
Puma overall record last 2 weeks against hero is 7-6
we cant say PvT have been favoured protoss yet, despite many factors like Deezer ELO = Nestea hahahaha 
and to Jinro saying HT counter T3 terran like BC or thors banshee ravens, then again EMP> HT and protoss, so when you guys having 4000 gas late games while low on mineral, just make some late game air units and they are pretty good since terran will get air attack upgrade anyways for viking, not saying that you guys just go pure banshee raven or something but add something to the mix when you have lots of gas is a good idea, it is still come down to micro war between HT vs ghost anyway..
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On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point. I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started. Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much.
It's not hard, just harder than the other races... 
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The 50.6 and the 49.1 are irrelevant only the specific MUs matter as I pointed out before a race can be whatsoever UP and OP against the two races and still end up with a perfect 50.000000000%
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You dont even need to counter terran T3 with feedback or anything else, just make a normal deathball and win ezpz.
User was warned for this post
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On December 06 2011 00:12 Sackings wrote:
hopefully PvZ can develop into a stable matchup. right now its either the 2base all in or if the toss doesnt do damage they just get overrun in the late game ;/
Sounds just like Terran in TvP.
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On December 06 2011 00:17 ig0tfish wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 00:12 Sackings wrote:
hopefully PvZ can develop into a stable matchup. right now its either the 2base all in or if the toss doesnt do damage they just get overrun in the late game ;/ Sounds just like Terran in TvP.
Hey every race for itself!!!
+ Show Spoiler +Unless it's a mirror match than we can kill each other.
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On December 06 2011 00:08 HypernovA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point. I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started. Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much. Do some people not think before they post? Please go try mech an win the Gsl with it. Let's see how far you go with it.
So if the guy you quoted can't win GSL with the current standard play does it mean the strategy is bad?
So what are you exactly trying to say?
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So basically we have a really well balanced game right now. Who else is waiting for HOTS to destroy this?
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On December 06 2011 00:13 bqm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 23:52 Asmodeusz wrote:Ok... just for the people that think about dry stats pulled from TLPD as of something even remotely connected to balance of the game. It is not. Those stats say nothing about balance and 95% ppl can't understand it. Here's an example of why it's pretty much worthelss. Screenshot made today: haha, that one is pretty funny though, anyway we cant say that TLPD stats is correct, Jjakji recently destroyed Oz and Puzzle in code s to his way of winning it. Puma overall record last 2 weeks against hero is 7-6 we cant say PvT have been favoured protoss yet, despite many factors like Deezer ELO = Nestea hahahaha and to Jinro saying HT counter T3 terran like BC or thors banshee ravens, then again EMP> HT and protoss, so when you guys having 4000 gas late games while low on mineral, just make some late game air units and they are pretty good since terran will get air attack upgrade anyways for viking, not saying that you guys just go pure banshee raven or something but add something to the mix when you have lots of gas is a good idea, it is still come down to micro war between HT vs ghost anyway..
My point is - Win/lose balance has nothing to do with game balance because it doesn't account for skill and game machanics/flaws etc. Balancing a game by looking at winnings of every race can make the game only more frustrating because it's not focusing on fixing flaws of the game.
On December 06 2011 00:19 decaf wrote:
So basically we have a really well balanced game right now. Who else is waiting for HOTS to destroy this?
No. We have balanced win ratios. It's not the same as game balance.
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No. We have balanced win ratios. It's not the same as game balance.
But it's the closest thing.
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On December 05 2011 23:55 R!! wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 23:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 22:47 thezanursic wrote:On December 05 2011 22:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 22:35 thezanursic wrote:On December 05 2011 22:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 22:18 thezanursic wrote:On December 05 2011 22:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 19:48 Spaceneil8 wrote:Lowest overall Terran win rate ever. Tbh, this leaves me with a little smile on my face. Yeah. First time they're (baaaaarely) under 50% hahahaha. Protoss actually balancing out a bit? Finally *-* Now, if we can only hope that results level off at the 50% mark and don't continue to swap percentages! It's also too bad that some people consider one race to have a bit of an advantage in one stage of the game, and another race to be stronger in a different stage. I don't get why people look at the OVERALL stats. Look at the specific MUs would the game be balanced if it were TvP 20% win rate and TvZ 80% the win rate would still be 50%. Theoreticly if the TvP winrate drops lower it's gonna be a problem, but if the TvZ rises higher TL will just ignore the problem due to one balancing the other out instead of fixing both. I did look at all the graphs, but the difference there didn't surprise me... Terrans aren't able to *just* use two ghosts and win anymore, because of the patch. Terrans are going to need to learn to incorporate a few extra ghosts in their armies, which completely counters the new patch, and then you can go ahead and enjoy the old months' win percentages where you used to stomp us (or, at least, balance out the win percentage at 50-50). It's okay, really it is. TvP is in fluctation because of that patch. There's not nearly enough ghost play, despite the fact that it completely shuts down Protoss, and Terran isn't nearly as gas-heavy as the other races, so it's viable. I agree. It's one of the I've played better and lost situation. Soo many times I miss an EMP and just die where Toss doesn't seem to have that problem late game, but I guess that counter acts the early game where an early ghost EMP just destroys the protoss if he doesn't split. Well to be fair, I'm pretty sure Protosses have straight up died to investing in high templar tech and missing their storms in the same way you mention missing EMPs with your ghosts. If you invest in tech and it doesn't pay off (especially with spellcasters), then you're already behind. In PvT, one army usually smashes the other, and so the battle will look even more one-sided if you have a smaller army and "useless" spellcasters (because they got picked off or you missed with their spells). I agree and first I'm going to talk about the middle tier leagues not the pros. TvP is hard due to Terran having to react what Protoss does I mean you gotta get vikings for colossus or you are dead you gotta get ghosts for storm. Soo the terran is always playing the reaction game late game when Protoss does that early game. The thing is that Terran is really strong early game and Protoss is really strong late game, but due to all the experience the good Protoss have gathered early pushes aren't a problem to deal with and that's why the win rates shifted. You're referring to the late game Protoss tech-switch as far as Terran being reactionary goes, right? I agree with you, and that does put Terran in a tough spot late game. I think the best solution to that is to find a way to keep tabs on the colossi and templar count (scans?), and do your best to keep your viking and ghost count at the appropriate numbers. Obviously, it's easier said than done, but every race has to constantly be scouting and have proper unit compositions, and the fact that Protoss can no longer have instant-storms with warp-in (they need a decent amount of time to get enough energy) gives Terran a small window of opportunity, and ghosts are always a good unit to have on the field anyway (meaning that your viking count is probably the most important to "worry" about, so keep a closer eye on the number of colossi and match appropriately). Note that in the early game, Protoss has to react to whatever the Terran does. Terran is the one who can wall off, forcing Protoss to get a quick observer (and yet have enough gateway units out to stop a fast push, *just in case*). There's the possibility of cloaked banshees and blue flame hellion drops as well,. Also, throughout the mid and late game, keep in mind that Terran is far more mobile (Terran generally doesn't go mech, and Protoss hardly ever goes air), which also makes drop harrass far more effective for Terran and less effective for Protoss (although warp prisms definitely can be useful- don't get me wrong- just generally not as useful as medivac drops). Constant drop harrass and multi-pronged attacks often spread the Protoss army very thin, and the fact that the medivac heals your units often means that Protoss has to overcompensate with the number of units they bring back to clean up quickly. How can warp prisms generally be not as useful?I'd feel much more confident with a warp prism than 2 medivacs in most situations, they allow you to summon everything you have anywhere you want and they don't die as fast , warp prism based allins are clearly the most unstoppable ones out there if they go unscouted, and they're far from easy to scout, even with scans, just spread out your gateways and most terrans won't differentiate it from a standard robo opening.The unit boost you get from your extra production facilities is instant and ignores defensive positions, there's no travel time and way too small of a breathing room.
1. What's a warp prism "all-in"? Just wondering. You mean like elevator-ing all your units into the opponent's base? How is that more powerful than the traditional bitbybit of Terran all-ins in TvP, and what does that have to do with warp prisms vs. medivacs? From what I've seen, medivacs and warp prisms are generally both used for harrassment and multi-pronged attacks, not for driving an all-in. And if you're going to completely depend on a drop to wipe out the other player, then it's often due to dark templar harrass or a stim drop... both of those can have success, of course, but it's usually due to the other player not having the right defense.
2. Warp prisms do allow you to create extra units, but that means that every additional unit you warp in will automatically die when the opponent comes back to defend his base (as you can't lift them back up and fly away). Medivacs heal your units and you can pick everything up, so there are pros and cons for both air transports. Also, keep in mind that vikings, which shut down warp prism harrass, are a natural tech route for Terran, whereas Protoss air is not in PvT (and this doesn't even touch upon the fact that Terran can leave behind a few marines or turrets- the latter of which is much better at stopping drops than cannons). Protoss can sometimes use high templar (although feedback isn't guaranteed to kill medivacs) and stalkers, and that's about it for mobile defense. In other words, I feel that Protoss has to overcompensate more for the possibility of drops than Terran does- especially since Protoss is less mobile.
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On December 06 2011 00:19 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 00:08 HypernovA wrote:On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point. I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started. Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much. Do some people not think before they post? Please go try mech an win the Gsl with it. Let's see how far you go with it. So if the guy you quoted can't win GSL with the current standard play does it mean the strategy is bad? So what are you exactly trying to say?
GSL is the highest play standards. It might work against your average ladder player but it won't work against the pros playing at GSL.
And you can't read either since I wrote play with MECH and not bio play.
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On December 06 2011 00:24 HypernovA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 00:19 ceaRshaf wrote:On December 06 2011 00:08 HypernovA wrote:On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point. I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started. Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much. Do some people not think before they post? Please go try mech an win the Gsl with it. Let's see how far you go with it. So if the guy you quoted can't win GSL with the current standard play does it mean the strategy is bad? So what are you exactly trying to say? GSL is the highest play standards. It might work against your average ladder player but it won't work against the pros playing at GSL. And you can't read either since I wrote play with MECH and not bio play.
Hahaha you actually 100% failed to understand my post.
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On December 06 2011 00:24 ceaRshaf wrote:But it's the closest thing.
It doesn't matter? Ok if you can't understand the fundamental difference i have nothing more to do here.
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On December 06 2011 00:19 decaf wrote:
So basically we have a really well balanced game right now. Who else is waiting for HOTS to destroy this?
well, as terran I'm pretty hyped about being OP again once we get hots (:
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It's been said before in the replies but it's nice to see PvT changing directions.
I don't have the greatest sample size, but Hero looked pretty impressive against Sen @ NASL S2,
and vs. Ret/Sheth in DHW (true, could be teammates and therefore really know each other well, which really comes down to the metagame), do you think it's a matchup that just needs some more time to figure out?
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...so the three MU's arent balanced perfectly yet, but the overall average is? lol 
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On December 06 2011 00:27 Asmodeusz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 00:24 ceaRshaf wrote:No. We have balanced win ratios. It's not the same as game balance. But it's the closest thing. It doesn't matter? Ok if you can't understand the fundamental difference i have nothing more to do here.
What are you jumping for? Stats are the only thing we have when we debate abaut balance and skill. That or we can just go the "cause I say so" route.
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On December 06 2011 00:19 decaf wrote:
So basically we have a really well balanced game right now. Who else is waiting for HOTS to destroy this?
I wouldn't go that far well balanced isn't the word it's not there yet. Let's take a look what I mean
50.5 % Z overall
50.3 % P overall
49.1 % T overall
Looks fine now let's take a look at the specific match ups
PvT is 8.4 % favored for P (I think this should be left the way it is we gotta wait a month for it to stablize, but if it doesn't I suggest buff the EMP to 1.75 (2 is to much 1.5 is to little if the MU doesn't change soo 1.75 and is that even possible)
ZvT is 4 % favored for T (Leave it this is almost perfect just leave it)
PvZ is 7 % favored for Z (Something needs to change Zerg has been dominating this match up for a few months now)
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The Protoss and Zerg colors for the graph are way too close. I'm red green colorblind and they look nearly identical. Kinda hurts my head.
I also don't understand the PvT graph and why the length of the bars don't coincide with the position of the line. Maybe I'm missing something.
EDIT: Oh. Color blind version.
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EPT
