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On December 06 2011 00:31 WinteRR wrote: T 55% -> 45%. They went and broke TvP. Great.
That's a ridiculous swing, even though these stats can't be taken as gospel truth.
that's like the funniest comment I have read i a while.
Terran up 55 %: everything is all dandy
protoss up 55%: matchup is broken!
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On December 06 2011 01:03 InFi.asc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 00:31 WinteRR wrote: T 55% -> 45%. They went and broke TvP. Great.
That's a ridiculous swing, even though these stats can't be taken as gospel truth. that's like the funniest comment I have read i a while. Terran up 55 %: everything is all dandy protoss up 55%: matchup is broken!
We forget that terran players are actually better so they weren't OP they were just good.
On a serious note it's a short time to call it anything. The recent patches just landed. We need to digest them.
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In every science class you would get a hit with a stick because of your sensationalist formatting of these stats. 5% is a minor difference but your graphs make it out to be a huge one.
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id say that 10% difference is in reality 5% emp radius reduction and 5% double forge becoming standard.
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What on earth has happened to TvP
I don't think it is accurate to say that TvP is broken imba in P's favour as the patch has only just come through..
I don't think the cost of forge upgrades itself has made this change, it's just made people aware that double forge is pretty freaking good.
The emp change was needed though if we're being honest
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The rise of Protoss !! LOLOL
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-Terran favored in PvT for months and months -> Everything is cool, terran players just better bla bla. -Protoss favored for the first time in ages -> OMG matchup broken, Protoss is soooo OP.
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On December 06 2011 01:14 Baum wrote: In every science class you would get a hit with a stick because of your sensationalist formatting of these stats. 5% is a minor difference but your graphs make it out to be a huge one.
His graphs are perfectly acceptable so long as his error bars are accurate. Its a difference, thats all that matters; whether 5% or 50% doesn't matter. What DOES matter is if that difference is statistically significant (i.e. that the error bars do not overlap).
My PhD supervisor would hit me with a stick if I didn't report a statistically significant difference, even if it was "only" 5% (which can actually be a huge difference depending upon what you're measuring).
Anyway, interesting to see the huge reversal in PvT. First time Terran has been lowest in the winrates. For all those yelling about "its happened before", people are referring to the overall winrates at the top, NOT just TvP; Terran has always been top race in overall except for February where it was 0.1% below Protoss, making it second for that month, and even then the Terran moving average has NEVER been below that of either of the other races until now.
I think the PvT is a combination of Terran not knowing how many Ghosts to build now after the EMP nerf (something that'll have to be worked out) coupled with the patch going "hey Protoss, get more upgrades" which has caused this change to Protoss playstyles that Terran haven't figured out yet.
Give it a month or so and I expect to see it stabilising out a lot more. Though how far it swings back towards Terran will be the real test of how successful the patch was.
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On December 06 2011 01:23 ProxyKnoxy wrote: What on earth has happened to TvP
I don't think it is accurate to say that TvP is broken imba in P's favour as the patch has only just come through..
I don't think the cost of forge upgrades itself has made this change, it's just made people aware that double forge is pretty freaking good.
The emp change was needed though if we're being honest I wonder why EMP nerf was even needed, now that I look the graph from TvP october the match up only had 5,4% difference, it wasn't huge at all.
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Glad to see Protoss being on top in PvT, thats how i felt on ladder tho, the patch just hit so i guess it will even out quite soon. Its really weird that zerg i still so favored against protoss, seeing how protoss got buffed with prism and immortal, and zerg lost range on NP. I wonder why it is so.
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On December 06 2011 01:30 covetousrat wrote: The rise of Protoss !! LOLOL and a sequal Beneath Aiur!
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On December 06 2011 01:14 Baum wrote: In every science class you would get a hit with a stick because of your sensationalist formatting of these stats. 5% is a minor difference but your graphs make it out to be a huge one.
I would think that most science teachers would be capable of reading the scale and determing that it is a minor difference even if it looks big. Also...as if scientists don't try and skew things to match their hypothesis + to obtain further funding...
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On December 06 2011 01:36 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 01:23 ProxyKnoxy wrote: What on earth has happened to TvP
I don't think it is accurate to say that TvP is broken imba in P's favour as the patch has only just come through..
I don't think the cost of forge upgrades itself has made this change, it's just made people aware that double forge is pretty freaking good.
The emp change was needed though if we're being honest I wonder why EMP nerf was even needed, now that I look the graph from TvP october the match up only had 5,4% difference, it wasn't huge at all.
then you should look at korean only statistics or GSL only statistics. there you have more significant differences.
http://i.imgur.com/bviP1.png
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On December 06 2011 01:39 InFi.asc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 01:36 Mehukannu wrote:On December 06 2011 01:23 ProxyKnoxy wrote: What on earth has happened to TvP
I don't think it is accurate to say that TvP is broken imba in P's favour as the patch has only just come through..
I don't think the cost of forge upgrades itself has made this change, it's just made people aware that double forge is pretty freaking good.
The emp change was needed though if we're being honest I wonder why EMP nerf was even needed, now that I look the graph from TvP october the match up only had 5,4% difference, it wasn't huge at all. then you should look at korean only statistics or GSL only statistics. there you have more significant differences. http://i.imgur.com/bviP1.png Isn't there more terran and zerg players in korea than there is protoss players? I think that is definitely a thing to consider about the match ups in korea.
EDIT: When November statistics for Korea comes out?
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Foreigner Terrans are damping the winrates D: Stil i feel the emp nerf made PvT ALOT better from my personal experience.
If they get PvZ right, i'm going to be incredibly happy and it might motivate me again to play more.
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Interesting results, PvT seems to be turned on its head, while TvZ is unchanged. PvZ is getting better for protoss but still not there yet. And overall balance is at its best since June.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On December 06 2011 01:48 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 01:39 InFi.asc wrote:On December 06 2011 01:36 Mehukannu wrote:On December 06 2011 01:23 ProxyKnoxy wrote: What on earth has happened to TvP
I don't think it is accurate to say that TvP is broken imba in P's favour as the patch has only just come through..
I don't think the cost of forge upgrades itself has made this change, it's just made people aware that double forge is pretty freaking good.
The emp change was needed though if we're being honest I wonder why EMP nerf was even needed, now that I look the graph from TvP october the match up only had 5,4% difference, it wasn't huge at all. then you should look at korean only statistics or GSL only statistics. there you have more significant differences. http://i.imgur.com/bviP1.png Isn't there more terran and zerg players in korea than there is protoss players? I think that is definitely a thing to consider about the match ups in korea. EDIT: When November statistics for Korea comes out?
There were more in the gsl, but it doesn't modify the stats for tvp and zvp
Kore stats normally come a couple of days after those
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On December 06 2011 00:07 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 23:59 Catatonic wrote:On December 05 2011 20:16 red4ce wrote: So the big question is, how do you balance PvZ without screwing up TvP or vice versa. Now I could be extreamly wrong an in all likelyhood I am (since im only bronze though I atleast like to believe I have an extensive or atleast very decent knowledge of the game just not the multitasking skills or focus to attain higher lol) but I think what swings the the game in favor of zergs so much are the use of Mutas. On ladder, against friends, and practice partners of varying levels (bronze-med gold) I generally go muta,ling/bling into ultralisks (not gas effecient I know but I feel comfortable going this compo) an I just shut them down with mutas keeping them on 1-2base max until I get ultras out which then just go on a protoss all you can eat buffet binge. The Muta's manuverability and quickness make it easy to demolish mineral lines an tech structures until heavy anti air is invested in which delays the protoss an terren significantly atleast from what iv seen. Though to nerf Muta's would be rather difficult an break zerg's matchup against either race terren or protoss seeing as how its the only truly viable midgame harrass unit since most wall off against lings leaving only drop play an nydas which arent all too viable. Without that harass capability both races would go unchecked an mass up the deathball army to counter what ever zerg is doing every matchup since they'd get it so quickly with the minimal harass. I dont know if im wrong though I can only speak of how it appears to be to myself. Sorry if thats hard to read, im not the best grammatically and im infamous for run on sentences lol >.< (and a lack of punctuation hence the run ons though >.<) lol Nerfing mutas isn't the answer. Terrans just have put down 6 turrets to defend. I think turrets could be SLIGHTLY buffed, but there is no reason to not get the turret range upgrade and around 6 turrets it pays of believe it or not it does. I'm not saying turret your main like you see in bronze just put down 6-10 turrets down at the side where mutas come from now only do this if the zerg is going heavy muta obviously don't do this against 10 mutas, but at 30 mutas 10 turrets should trade cost effectively or just keep the zerg from attacking you http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=277047I would even say it wouldn't be bad to just put down twice as many late game. Turrets aren't just a muta repeller it's also a way to buy time for your marines to arrive. Though atleast from my experience once I start getting air upgrades which is immediately once the spire is done, turrets get burned down quickly. Around the 10min mark I have 7-9 mutas so I generally see round 3-4 turrets total in the base which i burn quick run out to escape the marines then run back in when they leave. The only thing Iv seen that terren has unless they actually do mass out turrets (which then ill just tech switch) is thors which seem to rip through mutas like a knife through butter (ofcourse meaning the butter isnt a frozen brick). I wasnt saying nerfing mutas was the answer though as it would create an immense imbalance in favor of the other races. Im just saying mutas being as good as they are, are a reason for terran balancing out in the win percentage cause iv seen mutas being used in increasing frequency in all matchups.
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On December 06 2011 01:48 Mehukannu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 01:39 InFi.asc wrote:On December 06 2011 01:36 Mehukannu wrote:On December 06 2011 01:23 ProxyKnoxy wrote: What on earth has happened to TvP
I don't think it is accurate to say that TvP is broken imba in P's favour as the patch has only just come through..
I don't think the cost of forge upgrades itself has made this change, it's just made people aware that double forge is pretty freaking good.
The emp change was needed though if we're being honest I wonder why EMP nerf was even needed, now that I look the graph from TvP october the match up only had 5,4% difference, it wasn't huge at all. then you should look at korean only statistics or GSL only statistics. there you have more significant differences. http://i.imgur.com/bviP1.png Isn't there more terran and zerg players in korea than there is protoss players? I think that is definitely a thing to consider about the match ups in korea. EDIT: When November statistics for Korea comes out?
the number of players has no direct influence in the winning percentages.
aside from that I don't know when the Korean stats will be uploaded but I hope they will be done simultaneously in the future so we don't even have to use the International stats to get sense of the balance.
that said I can give you the GSL stats.
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This is Terran's first month ever below 50%, isn't it? I guess that's something!
Then again, they did win two of the four major tournaments this month, so I'm still not too worried about them. :p
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