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On December 05 2011 22:43 Jono7272 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 22:41 Iatrik wrote:On December 05 2011 21:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point. I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started. Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much. .... People calling terran easy are honestly all retarded. If you dont want us to stay on MMMGV how about you suggest a single T3 unit that doesnt get countered by feedback? Oh you cant? Ok, then STFU. Terran is a hard race. Anyway, I think TvP looks pretty OK at the moment... It's even a little bit varied. Never thought of using EMP on your own units? Or waste your energy otherwise? BCs or Thors that can't be feedback, are very hard to handle as protoss. Add some SCVs in the mix and your army is almost unstopable. I mean. Seriously. I thought pro-gamers know the game and it's shortcuts a little bit better :/ Impractical work arounds.
1 EMP at your own BCs? Impractical work around? Seriously? :>
Like you don't use EMPs against Protoss anyway =)
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On December 05 2011 22:43 Jono7272 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 22:41 Iatrik wrote:On December 05 2011 21:00 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On December 05 2011 20:38 Plansix wrote:On December 05 2011 20:33 k10forgotten wrote:On December 05 2011 19:52 fraktoasters wrote:
Well PvT changed pretty dramatically. I'm just glad the protoss whining has calmed down a lot because it was at a pretty ridiculous level at one point. I hope you don't mind the Terran whining that's already started. Oh it has begun. There are some amazing threads about "SC2 is like.....hard now". Now that they have to aim their EMPs and can no longer stick on MMMGV for the entire game, we might see them not fly their factory around as much. .... People calling terran easy are honestly all retarded. If you dont want us to stay on MMMGV how about you suggest a single T3 unit that doesnt get countered by feedback? Oh you cant? Ok, then STFU. Terran is a hard race. Anyway, I think TvP looks pretty OK at the moment... It's even a little bit varied. Never thought of using EMP on your own units? Or waste your energy otherwise? BCs or Thors that can't be feedback, are very hard to handle as protoss. Add some SCVs in the mix and your army is almost unstopable. I mean. Seriously. I thought pro-gamers know the game and it's shortcuts a little bit better :/ Impractical work arounds.
I kinda agree EMPing your units is so unused at the moment I'm sure that will change in the future as we pick apart this game to pieces
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On December 05 2011 22:48 Iatrik wrote:
1 EMP at your own BCs? Impractical work around? Seriously? :>
Like you don't use EMPs against Protoss anyway =)
BCs are big. You would have to clump them up and EMP at the right time. Yeah, its impractical.
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Thors and BCs dont have splash damage, are slow and basically suck bawls anyway in the lategame.
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On December 05 2011 22:47 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 22:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 22:18 thezanursic wrote:On December 05 2011 22:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 19:48 Spaceneil8 wrote:Lowest overall Terran win rate ever. Tbh, this leaves me with a little smile on my face.  Yeah. First time they're (baaaaarely) under 50% hahahaha. Protoss actually balancing out a bit? Finally *-* Now, if we can only hope that results level off at the 50% mark and don't continue to swap percentages! It's also too bad that some people consider one race to have a bit of an advantage in one stage of the game, and another race to be stronger in a different stage. I don't get why people look at the OVERALL stats. Look at the specific MUs would the game be balanced if it were TvP 20% win rate and TvZ 80% the win rate would still be 50%. Theoreticly if the TvP winrate drops lower it's gonna be a problem, but if the TvZ rises higher TL will just ignore the problem due to one balancing the other out instead of fixing both. I did look at all the graphs, but the difference there didn't surprise me... Terrans aren't able to *just* use two ghosts and win anymore, because of the patch. Terrans are going to need to learn to incorporate a few extra ghosts in their armies, which completely counters the new patch, and then you can go ahead and enjoy the old months' win percentages where you used to stomp us (or, at least, balance out the win percentage at 50-50). It's okay, really it is. TvP is in slight fluctuation because of that patch. There's not nearly enough (multiple) ghost play, despite the fact that it completely shuts down Protoss, and Terran isn't nearly as gas-heavy as the other races, so it's certainly viable. Even before the patch with 10 ghosts, lategame was hard as hell. Terrans can make 20 ghosts now, and lategame will still be insane. I know several grandmaster tosses who give me 1 advice: allin me or win before the 15 minute mark, because you will die, unless I fuck up. Some even dare to say that they ALWAYS win in a macrogame vs terran, unless they make a big mistake. Then I respond with "I don't like to allin" and "I want to play nice long macro games". Then I ask if there is not a way for me to fight them lategame. Their answer is: no, really not, I'm sorry. I'm still looking for a protoss that can tell me what to build lategame. I tried pure marauder + 10+ ghosts + medivacs and vikings. I tried to mix in marines. I tried to mix in thors. I tried to mix in hellions. I tried to mix in tanks. Every time I fail very hard. I'm not saying that TvP is imbalanced. I'm just wondering what a sollution can be. I hoped to find one in the MLG Providence replays, but I didn't.
Don't go down the 1/1/1 route please. We are better.
First that's not true. Can I point out that Hero and Puma are 4:3 and 2:4. Soo yeah what you are saying isn't true. I agree that the lesser players didn't adjust yet, but just looking at Puma you can see it will stabilize in a month and can I point out that ones of the Pumas losses was an 1/1/1 :D
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Terrans talk about the HT like it's their nemesis. In theory it may be but when we look at pro games we see that very few templar actually get to storm/ feedback in a game.
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Balance looks great this month, good to see Protoss finally fighting back. ZvT looks pretty close to balanced and PvZ is getting better as well.
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On December 05 2011 22:47 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 22:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 22:35 thezanursic wrote:On December 05 2011 22:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 22:18 thezanursic wrote:On December 05 2011 22:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 19:48 Spaceneil8 wrote:Lowest overall Terran win rate ever. Tbh, this leaves me with a little smile on my face. Yeah. First time they're (baaaaarely) under 50% hahahaha. Protoss actually balancing out a bit? Finally *-* Now, if we can only hope that results level off at the 50% mark and don't continue to swap percentages! It's also too bad that some people consider one race to have a bit of an advantage in one stage of the game, and another race to be stronger in a different stage. I don't get why people look at the OVERALL stats. Look at the specific MUs would the game be balanced if it were TvP 20% win rate and TvZ 80% the win rate would still be 50%. Theoreticly if the TvP winrate drops lower it's gonna be a problem, but if the TvZ rises higher TL will just ignore the problem due to one balancing the other out instead of fixing both. I did look at all the graphs, but the difference there didn't surprise me... Terrans aren't able to *just* use two ghosts and win anymore, because of the patch. Terrans are going to need to learn to incorporate a few extra ghosts in their armies, which completely counters the new patch, and then you can go ahead and enjoy the old months' win percentages where you used to stomp us (or, at least, balance out the win percentage at 50-50). It's okay, really it is. TvP is in fluctation because of that patch. There's not nearly enough ghost play, despite the fact that it completely shuts down Protoss, and Terran isn't nearly as gas-heavy as the other races, so it's viable. I agree. It's one of the I've played better and lost situation. Soo many times I miss an EMP and just die where Toss doesn't seem to have that problem late game, but I guess that counter acts the early game where an early ghost EMP just destroys the protoss if he doesn't split. Well to be fair, I'm pretty sure Protosses have straight up died to investing in high templar tech and missing their storms in the same way you mention missing EMPs with your ghosts. If you invest in tech and it doesn't pay off (especially with spellcasters), then you're already behind. In PvT, one army usually smashes the other, and so the battle will look even more one-sided if you have a smaller army and "useless" spellcasters (because they got picked off or you missed with their spells). I agree and first I'm going to talk about the middle tier leagues not the pros. TvP is hard due to Terran having to react what Protoss does I mean you gotta get vikings for colossus or you are dead you gotta get ghosts for storm. Soo the terran is always playing the reaction game late game when Protoss does that early game. The thing is that Terran is really strong early game and Protoss is really strong late game, but due to all the experience the good Protoss have gathered early pushes aren't a problem to deal with and that's why the win rates shifted.
You're referring to the late game Protoss tech-switch as far as Terran being reactionary goes, right? I agree with you, and that does put Terran in a tough spot late game. I think the best solution to that is to find a way to keep tabs on the colossi and templar count (scans?), and do your best to keep your viking and ghost count at the appropriate numbers. Obviously, it's easier said than done, but every race has to constantly be scouting and have proper unit compositions, and the fact that Protoss can no longer have instant-storms with warp-in (they need a decent amount of time to get enough energy) gives Terran a small window of opportunity, and ghosts are always a good unit to have on the field anyway (meaning that your viking count is probably the most important to "worry" about, so keep a closer eye on the number of colossi and match appropriately).
Note that in the early game, Protoss has to react to whatever the Terran does. Terran is the one who can wall off, forcing Protoss to get a quick observer (and yet have enough gateway units out to stop a fast push, *just in case*). There's the possibility of cloaked banshees and blue flame hellion drops as well,.
Also, throughout the mid and late game, keep in mind that Terran is far more mobile (Terran generally doesn't go mech, and Protoss hardly ever goes air), which also makes drop harrass far more effective for Terran and less effective for Protoss (although warp prisms definitely can be useful- don't get me wrong- just generally not as useful as medivac drops). Constant drop harrass and multi-pronged attacks often spread the Protoss army very thin, and the fact that the medivac heals your units often means that Protoss has to overcompensate with the number of units they bring back to clean up quickly.
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On December 05 2011 23:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 22:47 thezanursic wrote:On December 05 2011 22:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 22:35 thezanursic wrote:On December 05 2011 22:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 22:18 thezanursic wrote:On December 05 2011 22:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 19:48 Spaceneil8 wrote:Lowest overall Terran win rate ever. Tbh, this leaves me with a little smile on my face. Yeah. First time they're (baaaaarely) under 50% hahahaha. Protoss actually balancing out a bit? Finally *-* Now, if we can only hope that results level off at the 50% mark and don't continue to swap percentages! It's also too bad that some people consider one race to have a bit of an advantage in one stage of the game, and another race to be stronger in a different stage. I don't get why people look at the OVERALL stats. Look at the specific MUs would the game be balanced if it were TvP 20% win rate and TvZ 80% the win rate would still be 50%. Theoreticly if the TvP winrate drops lower it's gonna be a problem, but if the TvZ rises higher TL will just ignore the problem due to one balancing the other out instead of fixing both. I did look at all the graphs, but the difference there didn't surprise me... Terrans aren't able to *just* use two ghosts and win anymore, because of the patch. Terrans are going to need to learn to incorporate a few extra ghosts in their armies, which completely counters the new patch, and then you can go ahead and enjoy the old months' win percentages where you used to stomp us (or, at least, balance out the win percentage at 50-50). It's okay, really it is. TvP is in fluctation because of that patch. There's not nearly enough ghost play, despite the fact that it completely shuts down Protoss, and Terran isn't nearly as gas-heavy as the other races, so it's viable. I agree. It's one of the I've played better and lost situation. Soo many times I miss an EMP and just die where Toss doesn't seem to have that problem late game, but I guess that counter acts the early game where an early ghost EMP just destroys the protoss if he doesn't split. Well to be fair, I'm pretty sure Protosses have straight up died to investing in high templar tech and missing their storms in the same way you mention missing EMPs with your ghosts. If you invest in tech and it doesn't pay off (especially with spellcasters), then you're already behind. In PvT, one army usually smashes the other, and so the battle will look even more one-sided if you have a smaller army and "useless" spellcasters (because they got picked off or you missed with their spells). I agree and first I'm going to talk about the middle tier leagues not the pros. TvP is hard due to Terran having to react what Protoss does I mean you gotta get vikings for colossus or you are dead you gotta get ghosts for storm. Soo the terran is always playing the reaction game late game when Protoss does that early game. The thing is that Terran is really strong early game and Protoss is really strong late game, but due to all the experience the good Protoss have gathered early pushes aren't a problem to deal with and that's why the win rates shifted. You're referring to the late game Protoss tech-switch as far as Terran being reactionary goes, right? I agree with you, and that does put Terran in a tough spot late game. I think the best solution to that is to find a way to keep tabs on the colossi and templar count (scans?), and do your best to keep your viking and ghost count at the appropriate numbers. Obviously, it's easier said than done, but every race has to constantly be scouting and have proper unit compositions, and the fact that Protoss can no longer have instant-storms with warp-in (they need a decent amount of time to get enough energy) gives Terran a small window of opportunity, and ghosts are always a good unit to have on the field anyway (meaning that your viking count is probably the most important to "worry" about, so keep a closer eye on the number of colossi and match appropriately). Note that in the early game, Protoss has to react to whatever the Terran does. Terran is the one who can wall off, forcing Protoss to get a quick observer (and yet have enough gateway units out to stop a fast push, *just in case*). There's the possibility of cloaked banshees and blue flame hellion drops as well,. Also, throughout the mid and late game, keep in mind that Terran is far more mobile (Terran generally doesn't go mech, and Protoss hardly ever goes air), which also makes drop harrass far more effective for Terran and less effective for Protoss (although warp prisms definitely can be useful- don't get me wrong- just generally not as useful as medivac drops). Constant drop harrass and multi-pronged attacks often spread the Protoss army very thin, and the fact that the medivac heals your units often means that Protoss has to overcompensate with the number of units they bring back to clean up quickly.
Yeah I agree 100% and this is the one and the only reason why Plat/Diamond toss just kill Terran. I mean late game your hands are already tied macroing and it's hard to scout it's easier to scout early game obviously for pros scouting late game isn't as hard so this isn't a problem and it's also easier to sit at your base rather than drop, but if you capitalize on the fact you can drop/warp in late game you can get huge advantages and that's what sets apart masters and diamond in my opinion. Protoss has the same scouting problem early game, but it doesn't tie them down to APM it ties them down to doing what they don't want to (get a robo) however good you are you can't just scout unlike Terran and I believe this is also an issue for Protoss well it's an issue that has to be there if it wasn't that would mean Protoss would have an advantage early game and that would be very bad for the mu.
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On December 05 2011 22:47 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 22:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 22:18 thezanursic wrote:On December 05 2011 22:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 19:48 Spaceneil8 wrote:Lowest overall Terran win rate ever. Tbh, this leaves me with a little smile on my face. Yeah. First time they're (baaaaarely) under 50% hahahaha. Protoss actually balancing out a bit? Finally *-* Now, if we can only hope that results level off at the 50% mark and don't continue to swap percentages! It's also too bad that some people consider one race to have a bit of an advantage in one stage of the game, and another race to be stronger in a different stage. I don't get why people look at the OVERALL stats. Look at the specific MUs would the game be balanced if it were TvP 20% win rate and TvZ 80% the win rate would still be 50%. Theoreticly if the TvP winrate drops lower it's gonna be a problem, but if the TvZ rises higher TL will just ignore the problem due to one balancing the other out instead of fixing both. I did look at all the graphs, but the difference there didn't surprise me... Terrans aren't able to *just* use two ghosts and win anymore, because of the patch. Terrans are going to need to learn to incorporate a few extra ghosts in their armies, which completely counters the new patch, and then you can go ahead and enjoy the old months' win percentages where you used to stomp us (or, at least, balance out the win percentage at 50-50). It's okay, really it is. TvP is in slight fluctuation because of that patch. There's not nearly enough (multiple) ghost play, despite the fact that it completely shuts down Protoss, and Terran isn't nearly as gas-heavy as the other races, so it's certainly viable. Even before the patch with 10 ghosts, lategame was hard as hell. Terrans can make 20 ghosts now, and lategame will still be insane. I know several grandmaster tosses who give me 1 advice: allin me or win before the 15 minute mark, because you will die, unless I fuck up. Some even dare to say that they ALWAYS win in a macrogame vs terran, unless they make a big mistake. Then I respond with "I don't like to allin" and "I want to play nice long macro games". Then I ask if there is not a way for me to fight them lategame. Their answer is: no, really not, I'm sorry. I'm still looking for a protoss that can tell me what to build lategame. I tried pure marauder + 10+ ghosts + medivacs and vikings. I tried to mix in marines. I tried to mix in thors. I tried to mix in hellions. I tried to mix in tanks. Every time I fail very hard. I'm not saying that TvP is imbalanced. I'm just wondering what a sollution can be. I hoped to find one in the MLG Providence replays, but I didn't.
I would suggest posting replays then, so we could help you analyze your problems. You may remember famous matches like Thorzain vs. MC in TSL3, the recent Puma vs. Hero matches of Dreamhack and NASL, and even Bomber's general TvP. Obviously, you dont have to go all-in in 10 minutes as Terran. I know, in particular, Bomber often likes to turtle with a fast third in-base OC for extra mules (which seems to be gaining popularity). You may need to think outside the box. Or it may just come down to poor positioning of units or you building the wrong composition against a particular build.
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EMPing big mech units with this radius )))))))))))) yea, it totally seems viable to spend like 600-300 on ghosts just to throw 3 emps on my own units, and then having 600-300 6supply ghosts worth nothing.
Ofc if we're talking about 3 emps, which are so not enough for mech army.
I'm not whining about balance here, I'm just begging you guys to stop being stupid.
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On December 05 2011 23:24 bLah. wrote:EMPing big mech units with this radius )))))))))))) yea, it totally seems viable to spend like 600-300 on ghosts just to throw 3 emps on my own units, and then having 600-300 6supply ghosts worth nothing. Ofc if we're talking about 3 emps, which are so not enough for mech army. I'm not whining about balance here, I'm just begging you guys to stop being stupid.
Agreed. If you're going to make the ghosts, just use them to snipe/EMP the high templar and then EMP the rest of the Protoss army. Why would you waste it on your own army? 
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So pretty much balanced, I feel like TvP will balance itself out, keep in mind that this is the first time P has a higher winrate than T since the removal of the amulett.
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On December 05 2011 23:29 Lorch wrote:
So pretty much balanced, I feel like TvP will balance itself out, keep in mind that this is the first time P has a higher winrate than T since the removal of the amulett.
Well imagine how high Protoss win rate would be right now if amulet wouldn't have been removed. Late game would literally be unplayable
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On December 05 2011 23:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 22:47 Snowbear wrote:On December 05 2011 22:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 22:18 thezanursic wrote:On December 05 2011 22:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 19:48 Spaceneil8 wrote:Lowest overall Terran win rate ever. Tbh, this leaves me with a little smile on my face. Yeah. First time they're (baaaaarely) under 50% hahahaha. Protoss actually balancing out a bit? Finally *-* Now, if we can only hope that results level off at the 50% mark and don't continue to swap percentages! It's also too bad that some people consider one race to have a bit of an advantage in one stage of the game, and another race to be stronger in a different stage. I don't get why people look at the OVERALL stats. Look at the specific MUs would the game be balanced if it were TvP 20% win rate and TvZ 80% the win rate would still be 50%. Theoreticly if the TvP winrate drops lower it's gonna be a problem, but if the TvZ rises higher TL will just ignore the problem due to one balancing the other out instead of fixing both. I did look at all the graphs, but the difference there didn't surprise me... Terrans aren't able to *just* use two ghosts and win anymore, because of the patch. Terrans are going to need to learn to incorporate a few extra ghosts in their armies, which completely counters the new patch, and then you can go ahead and enjoy the old months' win percentages where you used to stomp us (or, at least, balance out the win percentage at 50-50). It's okay, really it is. TvP is in slight fluctuation because of that patch. There's not nearly enough (multiple) ghost play, despite the fact that it completely shuts down Protoss, and Terran isn't nearly as gas-heavy as the other races, so it's certainly viable. Even before the patch with 10 ghosts, lategame was hard as hell. Terrans can make 20 ghosts now, and lategame will still be insane. I know several grandmaster tosses who give me 1 advice: allin me or win before the 15 minute mark, because you will die, unless I fuck up. Some even dare to say that they ALWAYS win in a macrogame vs terran, unless they make a big mistake. Then I respond with "I don't like to allin" and "I want to play nice long macro games". Then I ask if there is not a way for me to fight them lategame. Their answer is: no, really not, I'm sorry. I'm still looking for a protoss that can tell me what to build lategame. I tried pure marauder + 10+ ghosts + medivacs and vikings. I tried to mix in marines. I tried to mix in thors. I tried to mix in hellions. I tried to mix in tanks. Every time I fail very hard. I'm not saying that TvP is imbalanced. I'm just wondering what a sollution can be. I hoped to find one in the MLG Providence replays, but I didn't. I would suggest posting replays then, so we could help you analyze your problems. You may remember famous matches like Thorzain vs. MC in TSL3, the recent Puma vs. Hero matches of Dreamhack and NASL, and even Bomber's general TvP. Obviously, you dont have to go all-in in 10 minutes as Terran. I know, in particular, Bomber often likes to turtle with a fast third in-base OC for extra mules (which seems to be gaining popularity). You may need to think outside the box. Or it may just come down to poor positioning of units or you building the wrong composition against a particular build.
Well this might be gimcky, but maybe ghosts should take extra energy against mechanical
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On December 05 2011 22:59 thezanursic wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2011 22:47 Snowbear wrote:On December 05 2011 22:31 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 22:18 thezanursic wrote:On December 05 2011 22:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On December 05 2011 19:48 Spaceneil8 wrote:Lowest overall Terran win rate ever. Tbh, this leaves me with a little smile on my face. Yeah. First time they're (baaaaarely) under 50% hahahaha. Protoss actually balancing out a bit? Finally *-* Now, if we can only hope that results level off at the 50% mark and don't continue to swap percentages! It's also too bad that some people consider one race to have a bit of an advantage in one stage of the game, and another race to be stronger in a different stage. I don't get why people look at the OVERALL stats. Look at the specific MUs would the game be balanced if it were TvP 20% win rate and TvZ 80% the win rate would still be 50%. Theoreticly if the TvP winrate drops lower it's gonna be a problem, but if the TvZ rises higher TL will just ignore the problem due to one balancing the other out instead of fixing both. I did look at all the graphs, but the difference there didn't surprise me... Terrans aren't able to *just* use two ghosts and win anymore, because of the patch. Terrans are going to need to learn to incorporate a few extra ghosts in their armies, which completely counters the new patch, and then you can go ahead and enjoy the old months' win percentages where you used to stomp us (or, at least, balance out the win percentage at 50-50). It's okay, really it is. TvP is in slight fluctuation because of that patch. There's not nearly enough (multiple) ghost play, despite the fact that it completely shuts down Protoss, and Terran isn't nearly as gas-heavy as the other races, so it's certainly viable. Even before the patch with 10 ghosts, lategame was hard as hell. Terrans can make 20 ghosts now, and lategame will still be insane. I know several grandmaster tosses who give me 1 advice: allin me or win before the 15 minute mark, because you will die, unless I fuck up. Some even dare to say that they ALWAYS win in a macrogame vs terran, unless they make a big mistake. Then I respond with "I don't like to allin" and "I want to play nice long macro games". Then I ask if there is not a way for me to fight them lategame. Their answer is: no, really not, I'm sorry. I'm still looking for a protoss that can tell me what to build lategame. I tried pure marauder + 10+ ghosts + medivacs and vikings. I tried to mix in marines. I tried to mix in thors. I tried to mix in hellions. I tried to mix in tanks. Every time I fail very hard. I'm not saying that TvP is imbalanced. I'm just wondering what a sollution can be. I hoped to find one in the MLG Providence replays, but I didn't. Don't go down the 1/1/1 route please. We are better. First that's not true. Can I point out that Hero and Puma are 4:3 and 2:4. Soo yeah what you are saying isn't true. I agree that the lesser players didn't adjust yet, but just looking at Puma you can see it will stabilize in a month and can I point out that ones of the Pumas losses was an 1/1/1 :D
The thing is that I learned nothing from the TvP providence replays. Hero vs Puma and MC vs MVP games: 2 macro games, the rest are 1 base and 2 base plays.
+ Show Spoiler +
Puma vs Hero:
1 base play:
Taldarim: Puma stayed on 1base for a long time, then expanded and attacked with tanks, rines and scv’s. Hero held the push and it was over for Puma.
Shattered temple: 1 base allin from Puma, Hero wins.
Dual Sight: Puma allins again, Puma wins.
Xel naga: Puma allins, Puma wins.
2 base play:
Metapolis: puma opens 3 naked rax on 1 base and sends 5 scv’s with his rine push. Then he takes a hidden expansion at the side of hero and an expansion in his nat. Hero kills puma.
Shakuras: Both Puma and Hero FE. Puma follows up with a failed 4gate. Puma kills Hero with a rine tank push.
Macro game:
Antiga Shipyard: puma finally goes for a macro game and goes 1rax FE. He seems to be in a GREAT shape, with great upgrades and nice macro. Hero destroys him late game.
IMMvp vs MC
1 base play:
Shattered Temple: Mvp goes for a 2 rax + port 1base play and loses.
Dual Sight: Mvp goes for a 1 base tank rine push and wins.
2 base play:
Taldarim: both players FE, MC goes for a 10 minute mark timing push and destroys Mvp.
Metapolis: Mvp goes for a FE into 2 reactor rax + fact marine tank push. Mvp wins.
Shakuras: both players FE, Mvp holds a 2base colossus timingpush from MC. Mvp wins.
Macro game:
Antiga Shipyard: finally a macro game, MVP wins.
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Wow at people suggesting to emp mech own units. So we should EMP raven, banshees, and PDD to not let it got feedbacked? People make it like mech energy doesn't regen or something, or Terran is gonna have infinite amount of ghosts to EMP both army when he's going mech or something. And new flash, EMP actually only takes 100 energy of mech units, just like 100 or Protoss units, not 100% mech units.
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Protoss did well last month. I just hope this wasn't just one lucky month for Protoss. However, PvZ can look better than that.
Edit: It seems like Zergs never outperformed terrans in ZvT stats.
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On December 05 2011 23:46 canikizu wrote:
Wow at people suggesting to emp mech own units. So we should EMP raven, banshees, and PDD to not let it got feedbacked? People make it like mech energy doesn't regen or something, or Terran is gonna have infinite amount of ghosts to EMP both army when he's going mech or something. And new flash, EMP actually only takes 100 energy of mech units, just like 100 or Protoss units, not 100% mech units.
EMP before an engagement and it's not worth to feedback them for a while and feedback isn't a problem on ravens if the terran is fast enough to place 2 PDDs before the feedback.
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Ok... just for the people that think about dry stats pulled from TLPD as of something even remotely connected to balance of the game.
It is not. Those stats say nothing about balance and 95% ppl can't understand it. Here's an example of why it's pretty much worthelss. Screenshot made today:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/22KVL.jpg)
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EPT
