EPTFor the record though, I wouldn't shit on a dude for making a post. Posting is fine by me.
[D] Fundamental problems with Terran - Page 22
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Resistentialism
Canada688 Posts
For the record though, I wouldn't shit on a dude for making a post. Posting is fine by me. | ||
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Mrvoodoochild1
United States1439 Posts
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RoboBob
United States798 Posts
On December 01 2011 08:55 ZenithM wrote: Yeah, let's shit on every Protoss player regardless of their actual skill. What you don't understand is that your master gameplay is not comparable to ClouD's gameplay. And I would go as far as to say that ClouD's gameplay is not comparable to Nestea, MVP, and Naniwa (yeah, deal with it, Naniwa is a good player). Goddammit man, these three are training non stop in Korea while ClouD takes his time posting balance whine (twice!) on a trash thread on TL. Who do you think will win the most?? Protoss...obviously. That's very silly considering that a more accurate comparison of westerner:korean would be Cloud to someone like Hyperdub or Supernova. You don't compare an Axslav to Nestea, you compare Huk to Nestea. MC is a pro player who posts alot on PlayXP, kinda like Idra over here (well at least he used to, before he started doing all those webshows..then again, MC does a lot of webshows now too) | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On December 01 2011 09:21 aTnClouD wrote: You know top players don't spend every single second of their life practicing. If I post here just because I am used to do so for years and state protoss is way easier to play than terran it doesn't mean I am less dedicated than any of the other players you consider better than me. Actually I've talked to Naniwa recently and he told me he takes his time to do what he likes to do just as much or more than I do. Thing is you don't have to try to shit on my image just because I said a race takes considerably less skill and effort to be played at a foreign high level, because it doesn't change the reality of what I'm saying or the fact every foreign tournament result completely proves my point. Yeah, sorry, I admit I went out of line there. Wasn't trying to imply that you're not good or anything. So what do you propose? Wait for HotS? Straight up buff Terran? Terran still seems pretty strong at the GSL (in Code A today for example, no Protoss won). I don't think we're at a level of imbalance where a much worse player than you can beat you if he plays Protoss (http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/eu you don't lose much btw, gj ;D), so I don't really understand why you complain. And in my book you got a pretty decent run at DH where you beat Naniwa, a protoss. Is it just the feeling when you're playing? That you must do much more than the other guy to win? I say it doesn't matter if you still win, it's that much more satisfying. It's just weird that you, a good player with 76% winrate in EU GM, want to have your race made easier to play. But I mean, I kinda understand in a way, your livelihood depends on it, not mine. | ||
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WesleyLok
Canada99 Posts
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WesleyLok
Canada99 Posts
On December 01 2011 09:25 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: A fundamental problem with terran is that they can lose 95% of their SCVs and because of Mules still amass a sizable army. This concept just breaks my brain. A race should not have a spell that simply gives you money . You're not very smart are you? A mule = 3.5 scvs. If you constantly drop it. And never scan or supply drop. | ||
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GMonster
686 Posts
On December 01 2011 09:25 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: A fundamental problem with terran is that they can lose 95% of their SCVs and because of Mules still amass a sizable army. This concept just breaks my brain. A race should not have a spell that simply gives you money . Yes and Protoss has chronoboost and Zerg has larva injects... you are a idiot don't post here again unless you have something that actually has thought behind it. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On December 01 2011 09:40 GMonster wrote: Yes and Protoss has chronoboost and Zerg has larva injects... you are a idiot don't post here again unless you have something that actually has thought behind it. I would not say that it's a big problem, but you constantly see Terrans with less than 10 SCV make comebacks. If you got less than 10 probes/drones, you know you're fucked. It stems from the fact that if you use chronoboost or larva inject to relaunch your economy, you still have to pay for the workers (and you have to pay faster, because chrono forces you to pay more frequently for them). Mule is 3.5 FREE scvs, instantly. It's obviously the better mechanics in low worker count situations. Taken to the extreme. If you got 1 scv and 50 energy on an orbital, compared to 1 probe and 50 energy on a nexus, who will have the better economy? Chronoboost will essentially be wasted because you don't have any income to produce any probes. MULEs are, well, a free boost. As I said, it's not a fundamental flaw or whatnot, it's just how it has been designed. MULE sure are not a weakness of Terran ;D In normal game situations, all is pretty much evened out, but the game has not been balanced around a state where you lose all your workers. | ||
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Superneenja
United States154 Posts
On December 01 2011 08:23 HolyExlxF wrote: What I am reading: Terran units should win in engagements both when they're micro'd and when they are not. you cant read?... he is saying Z and P units shouldn't win engagements when they are not micro'd. Terran has to micro properly to win most engagements. | ||
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
On December 01 2011 09:34 ZenithM wrote: Yeah, sorry, I admit I went out of line there. Wasn't trying to imply that you're not good or anything. So what do you propose? Wait for HotS? Straight up buff Terran? Terran still seems pretty strong at the GSL (in Code A today for example, no Protoss won). I don't think we're at a level of imbalance where a much worse player than you can beat you if he plays Protoss (http://sc2ranks.com/ranks/eu you don't lose much btw, gj ;D), so I don't really understand why you complain. And in my book you got a pretty decent run at DH where you beat Naniwa, a protoss. Is it just the feeling when you're playing? That you must do much more than the other guy to win? I say it doesn't matter if you still win, it's that much more satisfying. It's just weird that you, a good player with 76% winrate in EU GM, want to have your race made easier to play. But I mean, I kinda understand in a way, your livelihood depends on it, not mine. I think this game was made wrong for a tons of reasons and I am just frustrated cause I ended up getting the shortest end of the stick. When I see players like Seiplo who can't even explain why they do what they do randomly beating players 10 times better than them at DH and a monster like Kas playing all day long the best players in Europe losing in the groupstage like he did then I can't help but thinking this game is bad and unfair. Of course there are really good protoss players and they get the merit they deserve, but in Europe there's so many joke all in protoss players who just randomly take risks and can win because the race just requires no mechanics (bling or elfi being other good examples) and can be played with overall very poor understanding of RTS. I mean look at Titan he's actually a really good and skilled protoss player, he picked up the game very late and it took him very little time to compete at the highest level in Europe. There's nothing to do right now, this game has been fucked up by the bad pathing that makes units clump too much, the smart casting system and super smart AI a-move units. Also warpgate mechanic is ridicolous and makes me wonder if blizzard balance team has any clue about how RTS games work since the distance between production buildings and where you want to have your units is one of the biggest things a player has to consider in order to perform well. | ||
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creamer
Canada128 Posts
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W2
United States1177 Posts
All it takes is for 1 person to blossom and your whole theory goes out the window. | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
On November 30 2011 13:16 Gamegene wrote: Funny, Terrans in GSL usually win their games with strong build orders and interesting styles rather than relying entirely on micro. I could say the same thing Pbout protoss: "Protoss is the most microable race! They have blink stalkers, they have warp prisms, they have collosus which you can use to dance with the MMM ball and vikings, they have high templars to feedback and storm, they have forcefields, they have phoenix to harass and pick off marines as they pop out!! Hell, some go for a collosi warp prism drop play! The problem is that they can't utilize it all!!" When most of the Protoss victories recently relied on intelligent decision making and prepared build orders. This is pretty much completely completely true. Seriously most of the tosses use good ff's and strong positioning rather than super gosu micro because of the constant warping, chrono-ing etc. Along with this fact the toss micro ability may be high with stalkers, but most everything else is kinda clumsy, like collo. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On December 01 2011 07:28 aTnClouD wrote: I know I shouldn't answer to this taunt but even if I was really just bad there's no other explaination to the decline of the terran race outside korea. I've tried playing protoss multiple times in the past (in the only matchup I know for SC2 protoss, PvT) and I could easily beat some of the top terrans in Europe by just camping, chronoboosting my upgrades and waiting on 3 bases. That's basically what every protoss does now and the amount of skill and multitasking it takes is so ridicolously low I feel like crying whenever I think I could have just kept playing protoss when SC2 started. If warpgate was not in the game it would be much different, not having to deal with walking distances and smartcasting makes everything way way WAY easier. Top Terrans in Europe? Ok. Can you beat top Terrans in Korea? As a spectator, I want the game to be balanced at the highest levels of play. And when I say that, I don't mean the pro scene. I mean the Korean pro scene. And given how much Korean Terrans dominate, it's looks pretty bad when NA and EU Terrans complain about balance, because proof of just how much Terran is capable of is right there in the Korean scene - at the very highest level of play. The only route for you to go from there is to declare that Korean Terrans are simply miles and miles ahead of Korean Protosses in skill, which doesn't really make much sense unless you have evidence that despite the rigorous practice regimen of Koreans in their team houses, the Protosses in those team houses all happen to not practice as much as the Terrans, or that all the Protosses just happen to all have less inherent skill than the Terrans, both of which are frankly scenarios that are very difficult to believe, as opposed to the scenario where Korean Ts and Ps both practice a ton despite Ts winning a disproportionate amount of time. I understand that NA and EU Terran pros also want to do well. But from an ideal standpoint of balance, the very best deserve players deserve balance the most, and the very best right now happen to be the Koreans. If Terran nerfs and Protoss buffs to help with the Korean scene end up hurting Ts in the EU/NA scene, then I'm sorry, because that's very unfortunate. Please, go complain to Blizzard for designing a game where the races have such skewed relations between skill and race efficacy, but trying to discredit Protoss as a whole does the Korean Protoss players (who likely practice more than you - and that isn't meant as an insult - if you accept that Korea is ahead of the rest of the world, and that Koreans don't have any sort of genetic disposition toward SC2 ability, then the logical conclusion is that they generally practice harder than foreigners) a huge disservice. | ||
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Juanald
United States354 Posts
On December 01 2011 09:31 RoboBob wrote: That's very silly considering that a more accurate comparison of westerner:korean would be Cloud to someone like Hyperdub or Supernova. You don't compare an Axslav to Nestea, you compare Huk to Nestea. MC is a pro player who posts alot on PlayXP, kinda like Idra over here (well at least he used to, before he started doing all those webshows..then again, MC does a lot of webshows now too) what is wrong with you axslave is easily top 5 foreign protoss.. this isnt the place to sneak in your player bashing artosis went over this last night in his rant on sotg cmon. | ||
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Ace.Xile
United States286 Posts
On December 01 2011 09:59 Juanald wrote: what is wrong with you axslave is easily top 5 foreign protoss.. this isnt the place to sneak in your player bashing artosis went over this last night in his rant on sotg cmon. What artosis ranted about had nothing to do with people not liking players on forums and was almost exclusively directed at caster/player relations during tournaments, and furthermore there is no way Axslav makes top 5 on any level. It has nothing to do with bashing, and everything to do with the fact that his results aren't anywhere near as good as most other high level players. | ||
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
On December 01 2011 09:53 aTnClouD wrote: I think this game was made wrong for a tons of reasons and I am just frustrated cause I ended up getting the shortest end of the stick. When I see players like Seiplo who can't even explain why they do what they do randomly beating players 10 times better than them at DH and a monster like Kas playing all day long the best players in Europe losing in the groupstage like he did then I can't help but thinking this game is bad and unfair. Of course there are really good protoss players and they get the merit they deserve, but in Europe there's so many joke all in protoss players who just randomly take risks and can win because the race just requires no mechanics (bling or elfi being other good examples) and can be played with overall very poor understanding of RTS. I mean look at Titan he's actually a really good and skilled protoss player, he picked up the game very late and it took him very little time to compete at the highest level in Europe. There's nothing to do right now, this game has been fucked up by the bad pathing that makes units clump too much, the smart casting system and super smart AI a-move units. Also warpgate mechanic is ridicolous and makes me wonder if blizzard balance team has any clue about how RTS games work since the distance between production buildings and where you want to have your units is one of the biggest things a player has to consider in order to perform well. I completely understand where you're coming from dude. It must be hard for you that is making a living out of this. You could be a protoss and be way more succesful. =[. I guess you should still try the switch though. | ||
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
On December 01 2011 09:53 aTnClouD wrote: I think this game was made wrong for a tons of reasons and I am just frustrated cause I ended up getting the shortest end of the stick. When I see players like Seiplo who can't even explain why they do what they do randomly beating players 10 times better than them at DH and a monster like Kas playing all day long the best players in Europe losing in the groupstage like he did then I can't help but thinking this game is bad and unfair. Of course there are really good protoss players and they get the merit they deserve, but in Europe there's so many joke all in protoss players who just randomly take risks and can win because the race just requires no mechanics (bling or elfi being other good examples) and can be played with overall very poor understanding of RTS. I mean look at Titan he's actually a really good and skilled protoss player, he picked up the game very late and it took him very little time to compete at the highest level in Europe. There's nothing to do right now, this game has been fucked up by the bad pathing that makes units clump too much, the smart casting system and super smart AI a-move units. Also warpgate mechanic is ridicolous and makes me wonder if blizzard balance team has any clue about how RTS games work since the distance between production buildings and where you want to have your units is one of the biggest things a player has to consider in order to perform well. Cloud i <3 you, but protoss takes a lot of skill. You are a terran and that takes skill too, all the races take skill to play. The fundamentals of toss are different than terran, that doesn't make it bad. Also why hate on elfi? His PvP (as said by the SotG podcast) is probably one of the best and that has nothing to do with Terran. Warp is not rediculous, its about as rediculous as creating up to 10 marines at a time out of 5 rax or getting all your tech in one path for air, mech, and bio. The races are fine, just different. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
Let me explain MULEs once and for all: 1. MULEs represent the warpgate/larva effect BY reducing the amount of food tied into SCVs, so that the standing T army is larger. In 30s, 3 base stockpiled T can approximately make 30 food of army. It would take significant investments in production+addons to do more. In contrast, Z/P have much faster production, consider the fact that P can warp in 20+ food in a late game fight. This is counterbalanced by T having equal income at ~55 SCVs + 3 MULEs. So the standing T army can be 20 food larger, in anticipation of 20+ food warpin. Similarly, Z with 4-5 hatches can easily burst upwards of 70 food in one 30-40s cycle and the T army needs to be larger. 2. Most players would agree that MULEs are necessary early to keep up in econ, but they also point to the effects of MULEs when T has lost his SCVs. This is a poorly constructed argument because the races have different points of resilience tied to their macro mechanics. It is true that if P loses all his probes, he is most likely done. But similarly, late game, if P is in T's base sitting on the production, the game is over. P production can still continue until all warpgates are eliminated, while T is unable to produce. So the two races favor different end states. In the case of Z, as long as Z has resources banked, drone loss is not an issue (unless Z also has no army). It takes a single cycle to replenish a base. Let's also recognize that in this matchup, if there were no MULEs, the moment T lost his SCVs to fungal/muta the game would be over. There would be no way to catch up to Z. This is different from BW because in BW larva did not outstrip T so vastly, such that you could literally make 40-50 drones at once. I hope these points make you think a bit about the role of the MULE, and how it's just asymmetric with the advantages the other races have. | ||
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-Jackal-
38 Posts
On December 01 2011 09:25 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: A fundamental problem with terran is that they can lose 95% of their SCVs and because of Mules still amass a sizable army. This concept just breaks my brain. A race should not have a spell that simply gives you money . Agree whole heartedly. One of the only true broken mechanics of the game. Takes away the need for Terran's to Macro consistently. I have seen high level master Terran's miss SCV production consistently throughout replays and make up for it with mules. On the other hand I have seen some players never miss an SCV... macro really well.. and then get the added benefit of mules on top of this.... its a huge advantage. Mules also don't take up any supply which is just dumb. Late game PvT will consist of mass orbital commands with mass mule call down... therefore allowing the Terran to get rid of SCV's and pump more supply into Army. | ||
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