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On December 01 2011 01:52 Clazziquai10 wrote:It may be a bit of an exaggeration, but i think this is what TS is trying to say: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2nQxN.jpg) Which kinda explains why korean terrans are owning korean protosses and korean zergs but foreign terrans arent exactly owning foreign protosses and zergs.
This man understands my post.
As you can see if a certain race rewards multitask/micro etc potential more than the others, it is going to be better at higher levels. But if blizzard balances it around those players (ie so the lines touch at the end where koreans are), even foreign players with less ability will suffer more as Terran than as Protoss/Zerg.
Those saying the game should be balanced around people who play as progamers, and their lives are affected by balance changes etc, surely this includes foreign players who also rely on balancing the game equally at their level as well as korean pro level?
The overall idea of the post is that, Blizzard's balance changes to date have simply been trying to shift the terran line up or down, which does not fundamentally fix the problem. Only by either relieving some of the micro on terrans, or by making the other races have more to do (which sounds better to me) can they change the slant of this graph.
I think this is what they are trying to do in the HOTS expansion. Terran are getting some new units that don't require as much micro, while the others are getting units with spells etc. Hopefully this will go some way in leveling the field a bit.
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What I am reading:
Terran units should win in engagements both when they're micro'd and when they are not.
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On December 01 2011 08:15 nt-rAven wrote:
The fundamental problem with terran currently is all terran does is all in or timing attack, they are very similar to how protoss once was, all ining instead of actually figuring out a standard way of playing. Watching terran koreans play, yes they all in but everyone of them can have very solid extended macro games. Terran has to learn how to play because mass medivac drops and 1-1-1's are finally starting to get figured out. I know this wont help any terran player immediatly but learn how to play without scv marine all in and maybe u will win a big tournament like zerg and protoss have been~
I assume you talk about TvP since thats the only matchup where this happens. The reason is that going into lategame vs toss is absolutely stupid atm. For those who think immortal buff/emp nerf changed the matchup you are horribly wrong. The matchup changed when every toss started to go for both colossus and twilight tech + double upgrades. Immortals have hardly any effect on the matchup and people use so many ghosts that they can mostly emp your whole army anyway. Lategame TvP is so stupid that there is no reason to go for it.
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On December 01 2011 07:02 aTnClouD wrote:
Well terran is by an huge amount the hardest race in the game, no doubt. I am not sure if the game is balanced at the current korean highest level but I can see for sure the level of knowledge and mechanics protoss and zerg require is incomparably inferior. Especially protoss. Zerg can be hard aswell but to a very good and experienced mechanical player from scbw there's not much else to learn. This is the reason foreign terrans do bad. They simply don't have a structure and practice with good enough players to keep up with korean terrans so they just lose to the easier to play races.
I agree with your post 100% i have a hard time respecting Protoss players as much (at my level) because of how easier IMO personal opinion the Race is . I agree with you that Terran is probably the Hardest Race at the High Level (Top Master, GM)
I play ZvT and i love it i feel its balanced and all really well ---PvZ (I don't feel its balanced at my level (Mid Master).
I really think Protoss is the Strongest Race at Certain levels (maybe the Strongest possibly at levels a little lower than Nestea,MVP) Although Naniwa has proven this wrong in the Latest MLG. (He beat the two best Players(Beating Nestea Twice in a B03) in world with Protoss)
Which actually reinforces your Argument. So with that happening at MLG i really think it brings into attention how strong Protoss really is in terms of balance. (Hero won Dreamhack Winter too (Not to take anything away from that He's an amazing player)
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On December 01 2011 08:23 HolyExlxF wrote:
What I am reading:
Terran units should win in engagements both when they're micro'd and when they are not.
No, what you're reading is that Terran units shouldn't always win when they're perfectly micro'd (and so are the opponents units) and always lose when they're not perfectly micro'd. Its a crappy design mechanic because it inherently makes balancing the game problematic.
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How can you say that terran v protoss late game is broken? terran is not even explored u dont even use lategame units vs protoss, you use marines and marauders ghhost and vikings, no offense but protoss fully teched should be able to beat that composition or there would be serious problem with terran~ no offense but that seems like a whine from a race that has dominated sc2 for the past 6 months and u will get no sympathy from either zerg or protoss whov already been through darkages!
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On December 01 2011 08:22 SpunXtain wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 01:52 Clazziquai10 wrote:It may be a bit of an exaggeration, but i think this is what TS is trying to say: Which kinda explains why korean terrans are owning korean protosses and korean zergs but foreign terrans arent exactly owning foreign protosses and zergs. This man understands my post. As you can see if a certain race rewards multitask/micro etc potential more than the others, it is going to be better at higher levels. But if blizzard balances it around those players (ie so the lines touch at the end where koreans are), even foreign players with less ability will suffer more as Terran than as Protoss/Zerg. Those saying the game should be balanced around people who play as progamers, and their lives are affected by balance changes etc, surely this includes foreign players who also rely on balancing the game equally at their level as well as korean pro level? The overall idea of the post is that, Blizzard's balance changes to date have simply been trying to shift the terran line up or down, which does not fundamentally fix the problem. Only by either relieving some of the micro on terrans, or by making the other races have more to do (which sounds better to me) can they change the slant of this graph. I think this is what they are trying to do in the HOTS expansion. Terran are getting some new units that don't require as much micro, while the others are getting units with spells etc. Hopefully this will go some way in leveling the field a bit.
If you talk about the Korean scene (in BW and Sc2) Terran dominate. Look at the top Korean T (having both innovation and control): Bomber, Polt, Fin, Mvp, Keen, Happy, SC, MKP and Team Slayers. P has Oz, Puzzle, MC, Yongwha, Sage, JYP. Z has Losira, Coca, Leenock, Nestea, Curious, DRG, July. There as soo many more top T than there are top Z and P. The reason T dominates Korea is because the most of the best player play Terran.
The graph shows not the balance of the game but what the scene looks like currently
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FYI this post had nothing to do with "terran late game vs toss" . . . . damn this has devolved into such a mindless thread.
But I'll nibble and try to bring it back to the point, if Toss are implying Terran need to use more units like ravens and stuff, that further increases the oweness on micro for terrans, it would probably further exacerbate the problem described.
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On December 01 2011 08:40 SpunXtain wrote:
FYI this post had nothing to do with "terran late game vs toss" . . . . damn this has devolved into such a mindless thread.
But I'll nibble and try to bring it back to the point, if Toss are implying Terran need to use more units like ravens and stuff, that further increases the oweness on micro for terrans, it would probably further exacerbate the problem described.
i wasn't talking about your post 
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oh man
this is exactly how i feel as well
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On December 01 2011 08:40 SpunXtain wrote:
FYI this post had nothing to do with "terran late game vs toss" . . . . damn this has devolved into such a mindless thread.
But I'll nibble and try to bring it back to the point, if Toss are implying Terran need to use more units like ravens and stuff, that further increases the oweness on micro for terrans, it would probably further exacerbate the problem described.
Seriously, how are you supposed to use ravens in a TvP lategame with hts ready.
Well you could use the PDD, but the protoss can force you to use it and afterwards the raven is pretty useless.
If you try to get off a seeker missile any HT can feedback the raven before it can shoot the missile because its range is so awefully low. at the same time the high energy cost on the missile will let the raven die instantly to feedback.
On December 01 2011 08:33 nt-rAven wrote:
How can you say that terran v protoss late game is broken? terran is not even explored u dont even use lategame units vs protoss, you use marines and marauders ghhost and vikings, no offense but protoss fully teched should be able to beat that composition or there would be serious problem with terran~ no offense but that seems like a whine from a race that has dominated sc2 for the past 6 months and u will get no sympathy from either zerg or protoss whov already been through darkages!
please tell me what endgame units, that have not yet been proved to be just bad in tvp, to use and i will gladly do so.
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I do think the game is pretty damn well balanced, it's just balanced at different levels of play.
For example:
Defensive whines:
1. It's waaaay too easy for good Zergs to lose to stupid cheese
2. Terran requires more unit micro than other races
3. Protoss are chained to the Robo because its their only source of mobile detection
Offensive whines:
4. Lategame Zerg is so tough to counter properly because they can completely reverse their unit composition in single production round. Which is insanely powerful in a game with strong counter units.
5. Terran units are so cost efficient that if Terran units are perfect microed against perfectly microed P/Z units, the Terran units always win.
6. Between Warpin and Forcefield, Protoss can completely nullify their opponent's defender's advantage and apply it to their own defense as well.
Those are all pretty big things that I don't think they can fix in a live patch. HotS is the right place to work on them.
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omg you give me a headache just reading that, i guess u never use ghost or seige tanks lol u sound like ht is the gg unit of all time! anyways wtv try to help terran and u get flamed lol alright whine about it more!
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On December 01 2011 08:24 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 07:02 aTnClouD wrote:
Well terran is by an huge amount the hardest race in the game, no doubt. I am not sure if the game is balanced at the current korean highest level but I can see for sure the level of knowledge and mechanics protoss and zerg require is incomparably inferior. Especially protoss. Zerg can be hard aswell but to a very good and experienced mechanical player from scbw there's not much else to learn. This is the reason foreign terrans do bad. They simply don't have a structure and practice with good enough players to keep up with korean terrans so they just lose to the easier to play races. I agree with your post 100% i have a hard time respecting Protoss players as much (at my level) because of how easier IMO personal opinion the Race is . I agree with you that Terran is probably the Hardest Race at the High Level (Top Master, GM) I play ZvT and i love it i feel its balanced and all really well ---PvZ (I don't feel its balanced at my level (Mid Master). I really think Protoss is the Strongest Race at Certain levels (maybe the Strongest possibly at levels a little lower than Nestea,MVP) Although Naniwa has proven this wrong in the Latest MLG. (He beat the two best Players(Beating Nestea Twice in a B03) in world with Protoss) Which actually reinforces your Argument. So with that happening at MLG i really think it brings into attention how strong Protoss really is in terms of balance. (Hero won Dreamhack Winter too (Not to take anything away from that He's an amazing player)
Yeah, let's shit on every Protoss player regardless of their actual skill.
What you don't understand is that your master gameplay is not comparable to ClouD's gameplay. And I would go as far as to say that ClouD's gameplay is not comparable to Nestea, MVP, and Naniwa (yeah, deal with it, Naniwa is a good player). Goddammit man, these three are training non stop in Korea while ClouD takes his time posting balance whine (twice!) on a trash thread on TL. Who do you think will win the most??
Protoss...obviously.
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Wasn't this the same as in BW?
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On December 01 2011 08:57 arfyron wrote:
Wasn't this the same as in BW?
I would say it kinda was, but to a lesser extent. Protoss was not that much easier than Terran in BW to players that would be diamond-masters back then. Don`t get me wrong, it was easier, not just as much. The funny thing though is that this fact was (is) well accepted in the BW community.
Even BW Protoss players agree that Protoss is easier somewhat (in levels like D until C or even B). Now, in SC2, in my opinion (and in the opinion of many others), the difference got bigger and you'll see every Protoss player that come to this thread deny it like their life depends on it.
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So, this thread basicly says that there is a problem with T because they require skill to be very strong? I guess with what you're saying T would have to be nerfed but made easier to play? I mean they already kinda own everyone at the very top so you can't just straight out buff them like I see al ot of people suggest.
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On December 01 2011 08:45 nat wrote:oh man this is exactly how i feel as well
Yeah this is how I feel as well. Although I would modify it a bit.
At lowest levels of skill:
1. Protoss strongest
2. Terran
3. Zerg weakest
At foreigner level of skill:
1. Zerg strongest
2. Protoss
3. Terran weakest
At Korean level of skill:
1. Terran strongest
2. Zerg
3. Protoss weakest
So every race dips quite a bit.
Protoss starts strong because it has the best 200/200 balls, but gets weaker as skill increases because they don't have many ways to use crazy amounts of apm.
Terran starts out balanced, and then drops to really weak because they're very dependent upon micro, but after mastering said micro nobody can beat them because their units are all so cost efficient.
Zerg starts out weakest because its macro mechanic is the most demanding. However after you get to the point where you can hit all your injects, know how to kill all the stupid all-ins, and you can see the entire map with Creep+OL spread, then you've achieved "macro nirvana". But then at the highest level things kinda drop off because your units are so weak that there's not much point in microing them.
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On December 01 2011 08:55 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 08:24 XRaDiiX wrote:On December 01 2011 07:02 aTnClouD wrote:
Well terran is by an huge amount the hardest race in the game, no doubt. I am not sure if the game is balanced at the current korean highest level but I can see for sure the level of knowledge and mechanics protoss and zerg require is incomparably inferior. Especially protoss. Zerg can be hard aswell but to a very good and experienced mechanical player from scbw there's not much else to learn. This is the reason foreign terrans do bad. They simply don't have a structure and practice with good enough players to keep up with korean terrans so they just lose to the easier to play races. I agree with your post 100% i have a hard time respecting Protoss players as much (at my level) because of how easier IMO personal opinion the Race is . I agree with you that Terran is probably the Hardest Race at the High Level (Top Master, GM) I play ZvT and i love it i feel its balanced and all really well ---PvZ (I don't feel its balanced at my level (Mid Master). I really think Protoss is the Strongest Race at Certain levels (maybe the Strongest possibly at levels a little lower than Nestea,MVP) Although Naniwa has proven this wrong in the Latest MLG. (He beat the two best Players(Beating Nestea Twice in a B03) in world with Protoss) Which actually reinforces your Argument. So with that happening at MLG i really think it brings into attention how strong Protoss really is in terms of balance. (Hero won Dreamhack Winter too (Not to take anything away from that He's an amazing player) Yeah, let's shit on every Protoss player regardless of their actual skill. What you don't understand is that your master gameplay is not comparable to ClouD's gameplay. And I would go as far as to say that ClouD's gameplay is not comparable to Nestea, MVP, and Naniwa (yeah, deal with it, Naniwa is a good player). Goddammit man, these three are training non stop in Korea while ClouD takes his time posting balance whine (twice!) on a trash thread on TL. Who do you think will win the most?? Protoss...obviously.
You know top players don't spend every single second of their life practicing. If I post here just because I am used to do so for years and state protoss is way easier to play than terran it doesn't mean I am less dedicated than any of the other players you consider better than me. Actually I've talked to Naniwa recently and he told me he takes his time to do what he likes to do just as much or more than I do. Thing is you don't have to try to shit on my image just because I said a race takes considerably less skill and effort to be played at a foreign high level, because it doesn't change the reality of what I'm saying or the fact every foreign tournament result completely proves my point.
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On December 01 2011 08:33 nt-rAven wrote:
How can you say that terran v protoss late game is broken? terran is not even explored u dont even use lategame units vs protoss, you use marines and marauders ghhost and vikings, no offense but protoss fully teched should be able to beat that composition or there would be serious problem with terran~ no offense but that seems like a whine from a race that has dominated sc2 for the past 6 months and u will get no sympathy from either zerg or protoss whov already been through darkages!
it's silly of terrans to complain because we haven't explored everything
but you know, protoss spent months and months whining before they figured anything out. and they still complain plenty. mkp perfected marine splitting against banes almost a year ago, protoss are only now really respecting the warp prism. I understand that it got a buff but the old 'it's too easy to lose' whine was so sad in the face of not feeling like they had options. it's hard, so don't try!
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EPT
