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lessQQmorePEWPEW
Jamaica921 Posts
Terran is weak without good micro and macro. Toss just mass warps zealots and zerg can remax in an instant. A good player can make terran a pretty darn good race.. but think about it, a good player can dominate with any race. blizz balances to satisfy all the crybabies. | ||
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Chamenas
96 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
Switch races? Or continue playing the imba race in utter shame, bowing our heads while taking wins we don't deserve? | ||
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MasterBlasterCaster
United States568 Posts
IDK, maybe I'm completely insane here, but I feel like it's perfectly balanced at the low leagues, and from what I've seen: well balanced at the higher leagues. | ||
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Ace.Xile
United States286 Posts
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MasterBlasterCaster
United States568 Posts
On December 01 2011 10:15 ZenithM wrote: So what do we Protoss do? Switch races? Or continue playing the imba race in utter shame, bowing our heads while taking wins we don't deserve? Ya'll should use moar marines. Or zerglings. I hear those BroodLords are super good too. Just go Muta-Infestor to Mainre-Siege and finish it with Collosi-Viking. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
On December 01 2011 10:09 Jackal888 wrote: Agree whole heartedly. One of the only true broken mechanics of the game. Takes away the need for Terran's to Macro consistently. I have seen high level master Terran's miss SCV production consistently throughout replays and make up for it with mules. On the other hand I have seen some players never miss an SCV... macro really well.. and then get the added benefit of mules on top of this.... its a huge advantage. Mules also don't take up any supply which is just dumb. Late game PvT will consist of mass orbital commands with mass mule call down... therefore allowing the Terran to get rid of SCV's and pump more supply into Army. Agree whole heartedly. One of the only true broken mechanics of the game. Take away the need for Protoss's to Macro consistently. I have seen high level master Protoss's miss unit production consistently throuhout replays and make up for it with mass warpins. On the other hand I have seen some players never miss a cycle... macro really well... and then get the added benefit of warpins on top of this... its a huge advantage. You get to pick what race you play. Do you want to build your gameplan around instant 20+ food of army on demand during a fight, or do you want to build around free harvesters. Both are advantages. | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2nQxN.jpg) This picture describes the problem. The other races should have to micro too, so that their units are very effective if microed effectively, and suck if they don't. | ||
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architecture
United States643 Posts
On December 01 2011 10:15 Ace.Xile wrote: I find this whole argument silly, it attempts to make some sort of factual causal effect based upon a small group of players, and the driving force behind this that essentially good terrans are underrepresented in foreign scenes. Which is a problem, but even to this day there are only a handful, maybe 5 entire foreign players that can compete with top level foreign players. It just so happens that these couple of players, and mind you i can only think of 3-4, don't play terran. It's a dumb argument just because people are basing their claims on the fact that these 3-4 players aren't terran and act like that's why they're good not any other factors. What about the reverse, when people whined that T's are overrepresented in GSL. How come it's reasonable to argue that only 4-5 foreign pros (all nonT) are good enough and the foreign T's just aren't good, but not reasonable to say that many of the code S T's are just better players than the non T players. I don't know if people are watching the GSL games because the level of play from P players is just really pathetically low. Z have some superstars like Nestea, Leenock, and DRG. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On December 01 2011 10:19 kofman wrote: This picture describes the problem. The other races should have to micro too, so that their units are very effective if microed effectively, and suck if they don't. That picture has the right idea, though I wouldn't consider the race strengths to be completely linear, as that implies that Terran is somehow massively underpowered compared to T/Z as you go down in skill levels (i.e Bronze/Silver/Gold/Plat), which doesn't seem true. | ||
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
On December 01 2011 10:15 ZenithM wrote: So what do we Protoss do? Switch races? Or continue playing the imba race in utter shame, bowing our heads while taking wins we don't deserve? I don't get what you are trying to say. I'm just pointing out how ridicolous the current situation is outside of Korea I'm not aiming at anything except saying my own honest opinion on an useless forum thread anyway. Pretty much like everyone is doing. It's not like I want to represent something and want something back just because I am a progamer. | ||
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Chamenas
96 Posts
On December 01 2011 10:19 kofman wrote: This picture describes the problem. The other races should have to micro too, so that their units are very effective if microed effectively, and suck if they don't. Are you just posting graphs without actual statistical basis in order to make a point you can't actually make? Protoss, contrary to popular belief, cannot just be 1Aed in their death ball to win, especially not in high level games, but even in lower levels. I've found this out to my chagrin many a time, because it's difficult when you're still learning to multi-task to micro your army and build from your base. Especially when you can't just hit a hotkey, queue a unit up at each building, all while watching your army (Protoss using Warpgates have to go back to a pylon in order to click and place their units). I'm by no means saying that Protoss have a problem, just showing that just about anyone can talk about how much they have to "micro" their race in order to do well. These arguments can be made by anyone, without actual data to support the claims they're rather baseless. | ||
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On December 01 2011 10:25 Chamenas wrote: Are you just posting graphs without actual statistical basis in order to make a point you can't actually make? Protoss, contrary to popular belief, cannot just be 1Aed in their death ball to win, especially not in high level games, but even in lower levels. I've found this out to my chagrin many a time, because it's difficult when you're still learning to multi-task to micro your army and build from your base. Especially when you can't just hit a hotkey, queue a unit up at each building, all while watching your army (Protoss using Warpgates have to go back to a pylon in order to click and place their units). I'm by no means saying that Protoss have a problem, just showing that just about anyone can talk about how much they have to "micro" their race in order to do well. These arguments can be made by anyone, without actual data to support the claims they're rather baseless. I don't think the graph is meant to imply that Protoss can just 1a to victory, but, rather, to just be a very basic explanation of why we see EU and NA Terrans describing about how they're struggling while KR Terrans continue to perform very well. | ||
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BarbieHsu
574 Posts
So what do we Protoss do? Switch races? Or continue playing the imba race in utter shame, bowing our heads while taking wins we don't deserve? Just keep playing, it's not your fault, it's Blizzards. There there. | ||
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Chamenas
96 Posts
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On December 01 2011 10:09 Jackal888 wrote: Agree whole heartedly. One of the only true broken mechanics of the game. Takes away the need for Terran's to Macro consistently. I have seen high level master Terran's miss SCV production consistently throughout replays and make up for it with mules. On the other hand I have seen some players never miss an SCV... macro really well.. and then get the added benefit of mules on top of this.... its a huge advantage. Mules also don't take up any supply which is just dumb. Late game PvT will consist of mass orbital commands with mass mule call down... therefore allowing the Terran to get rid of SCV's and pump more supply into Army. And a Protoss has 20+ Warpgate in these stages allowing him to almost instantly remax ( or at least way faster then the Terran ). So what if the Terran can sacrifice his workers he has the hardest time rebuilding an army in these stages anyways . | ||
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alpinefpOPP
United States134 Posts
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On December 01 2011 10:30 Chamenas wrote: But the graph is meaningless. It's not actually supported by data. It's just drawn and creates a false representation based upon suppositions that aren't actually in any way based in fact. That's just wrong, and misleading. The true numbers show a very different tale. This is the race distribution in America. Terran is the least played race by a significant margin from gold league onwards. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/am/1/all This is the race distribution for Korea, where Terran dominates all divisions except for GM, where toss has slightly more people. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/fea/1/all This shows that in America, where Terran's are not as strong, they don't do as well, leading to more people playing the other races. However, in Korea, where the Terran's are better, there are more of them because Terran is the best race when in the most skilled hands. As you can see, the graph isn't "superstition not in any way based in fact". | ||
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Ace.Xile
United States286 Posts
On December 01 2011 10:21 architecture wrote: What about the reverse, when people whined that T's are overrepresented in GSL. How come it's reasonable to argue that only 4-5 foreign pros (all nonT) are good enough and the foreign T's just aren't good, but not reasonable to say that many of the code S T's are just better players than the non T players. I don't know if people are watching the GSL games because the level of play from P players is just really pathetically low. Z have some superstars like Nestea, Leenock, and DRG. Ts were overrepresented in GSL due to several of factors, alot of it being how easy it was to stay in GSL and how strong T was when the GSL started. It is entirely reasonable to say that Code S t's are better players than non Ts, but to say that they are vastly better due to the fact that they place a race that is for some reason underpowered is silly. My argument was 100% saying that foreign players (those very small few) aren't the best players because of their race, they are the best players because they are, and they just happening to be playing that race, saying that they are so good because of their race makes no sense in direct opposition of the korean scene. I'm entirely fine with people saying that some T players are better than some P or Z players, but stating that they are better because like i said earlier, are playing some underpowered race makes little sense. I've always found it dam near impossible to grasp at where people think terran is incredibly hard, every race has to micro, every race has to macro. Terran is very micro oriented and in turn macro is relatively not as hard, they have to be concerned with things like building units, make scvs and not getting supply blocked while throwing down mules. Zerg on the other hand, micro isn't as hard in some cases although it could be argued otherwise i spose, but they're macro is respectively harder, on top of not getting supply blocked, and building units, they are responsible for spreading creep and keeping up on larva injects. I think the whole idea stems from the idea that however long ago someone showed how marines can counter pretty much every unit in the game with god like micro essentially. And they saw this as something where blizzard intended this type of micro to be necessary for races to be even. But the issue is that micro is not necessary to beat players of other races and it will likely never be reached ever. | ||
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kofman
Andorra698 Posts
On December 01 2011 10:36 alpinefpOPP wrote: i dont quite understand how this is a problem, and forgive me if ive misunderstood, but dont all races benefit from stronger micro and multi tasking? Not really. zerg and protoss don't micro anywhere close to what terran does, and Terran does 10x as many drops as toss or zerg. | ||
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