|
On December 01 2011 06:58 ppdealer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 06:11 mlspmatt wrote:Terran micro is simply more rewarding, not more difficult Yeah, that's why Terran is doing so well outside Korea. Come on. With the increased skill cap Terran has comes the OBLIGATION to use that skill cap to equal the other races. The micro and multitasking is clearly more difficult, but you can delude yourself in believing otherwise. You have no proof that this so called "increased skill cap" lies in micros requirement as opposed to game sense requirement. And Terran are obliged to use their race to their full potential? LOL I don't think you understand the whole idea of competitive gaming. You must really hate esport if you think players should be able to do well at the top without actually using everything that's given to them in the game. If there's something truly broken, Blizzard should just fix what's broken, i.e. increase the animation cool-down for marine/marauder so they can't be stutter-stepped as well, just like they did with reaver in BW. The wrong thing to do is to make one race so imbalanced at the top just to compensate all the scrubs at the lower level that it will literally destroys the whole competitive scene. Last time I checked there's no Global Red Alert League or anything resembling it. We will soon if everyone starts switching to Terran at the top level play because it's the only race viable. TLDR: (Some) low-level Terran are really a bunch of entitled crybabies. I don't know where people get the audacity to put their own low-level frustration ahead of the top-level play, where people's careers and livelihood are directly affected by game balance.
You are braver than I sir, but I totally agree. All of the recent threads have basicly come down to "make the game easier for me, you removed all the abusive things I used and its not fair".
|
On December 01 2011 07:02 aTnClouD wrote:
Well terran is by an huge amount the hardest race in the game, no doubt. I am not sure if the game is balanced at the current korean highest level but I can see for sure the level of knowledge and mechanics protoss and zerg require is incomparably inferior. Especially protoss. Zerg can be hard aswell but to a very good and experienced mechanical player from scbw there's not much else to learn. This is the reason foreign terrans do bad. They simply don't have a structure and practice with good enough players to keep up with korean terrans so they just lose to the easier to play races.
Ya, god forbid admitting to the possibility that you are just bad.
User was temp banned for this post.
|
Bagi you first say terrans always used ghosts. 1st fail.
Than say stalkers are not a problem in tvp so PDD useless. Who shuts down the Vikings that shut down the collosus? 2nd fail.
Than you say that I get things out of my ass and you have proven me wrong. While I am theorycrafting indeed all you say is that "pros don't do it so shut up". 3rd fail.
You actually say nothing but you do it loudly.
It's quite funny cause I am watching White Ra owning terrans after terrans on ladder right now. Bio ball is melting so nice under storm + archons + zeals. Sweeeet!
This thread should get closed because nothing interesting can pop out of this discussion.
|
On December 01 2011 06:14 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:50 Superneenja wrote:
I love how alot of people are suggesting builds/tech paths, theres a reason why we stick to a certain strategy.. its been tested out time and time again in Korea. Mech in TvP what a joke, warp a few units in the T main and if the army is out of position more than likely going to cause way more damage than 2-3 units should.
In BW it was far more important to deny arbiters in your base to prevent recall and it was possible, but with a lot of skill. You can't deny a warpprism if you want to? Bagi: I can bet you that the pros will change their strategies in 2012 and you will forget my posts and it's ok. But I don't need to be a pro to see that late game terrans don't have a good plan going against protoss. Killer steam rolls late game vs bio. I mean he owns them. Protoss not only did catch up but has passed terrans in the metagame. And you forget the time when terrans did not use ghosts while people theorized the potential of ghosts. And now ghosts are essential. Ravens are next. Edit: And most of the players are copy paste of real innovators of strategies. The innovators are few and are in the top, because that's why they are copied. MVP has no reason to change his style now, but if MVP wants to i think he can make mech viable.
I wasn't specifically speaking of a warp prism as you need to beef your base up before you roll out if you went mech anyway. I was talking more about closely placed pylons or even using a warp prism well outside my base. Now looking for these type of things with helions are your best bet, but being out of position before thors are out is just as damaging. I'm talking about a couple of dts in your base while you are trying to attack theirs between a production cycle, or a base trade type situation...basically I think mech is too slow for a mobile P army. I dunno I've just been feeling frustrated at the match up lately and after watching alot of pro terran streams I can say i'm not the only one.
|
On December 01 2011 07:09 Roxy wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 07:02 aTnClouD wrote:
Well terran is by an huge amount the hardest race in the game, no doubt. I am not sure if the game is balanced at the current korean highest level but I can see for sure the level of knowledge and mechanics protoss and zerg require is incomparably inferior. Especially protoss. Zerg can be hard aswell but to a very good and experienced mechanical player from scbw there's not much else to learn. This is the reason foreign terrans do bad. They simply don't have a structure and practice with good enough players to keep up with korean terrans so they just lose to the easier to play races. Ya, god forbid admitting to the possibility that you are just bad. User was temp banned for this post.
I know I shouldn't answer to this taunt but even if I was really just bad there's no other explaination to the decline of the terran race outside korea. I've tried playing protoss multiple times in the past (in the only matchup I know for SC2 protoss, PvT) and I could easily beat some of the top terrans in Europe by just camping, chronoboosting my upgrades and waiting on 3 bases. That's basically what every protoss does now and the amount of skill and multitasking it takes is so ridicolously low I feel like crying whenever I think I could have just kept playing protoss when SC2 started. If warpgate was not in the game it would be much different, not having to deal with walking distances and smartcasting makes everything way way WAY easier.
|
For those who think Terran micro is on par with say zerg let me pose this question. Is it easier to split your marines or is it easier for you to attack marines using your banelings? We all wish we could split like MVP and MKP but that just isn't the case.
|
On December 01 2011 06:14 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 05:50 Superneenja wrote:
I love how alot of people are suggesting builds/tech paths, theres a reason why we stick to a certain strategy.. its been tested out time and time again in Korea. Mech in TvP what a joke, warp a few units in the T main and if the army is out of position more than likely going to cause way more damage than 2-3 units should.
In BW it was far more important to deny arbiters in your base to prevent recall and it was possible, but with a lot of skill. You can't deny a warpprism if you want to? Bagi: I can bet you that the pros will change their strategies in 2012 and you will forget my posts and it's ok. But I don't need to be a pro to see that late game terrans don't have a good plan going against protoss. Killer steam rolls late game vs bio. I mean he owns them. Protoss not only did catch up but has passed terrans in the metagame. And you forget the time when terrans did not use ghosts while people theorized the potential of ghosts. And now ghosts are essential. Ravens are next. Edit: And most of the players are copy paste of real innovators of strategies. The innovators are few and are in the top, because that's why they are copied. MVP has no reason to change his style now, but if MVP wants to i think he can make mech viable.
MVP has every reason to change his style in TvP since its his only weakness and he is heavy mech user in other 2 matchups yet he does not do it.
|
On December 01 2011 07:29 raginglemon wrote:
For those who think Terran micro is on par with say zerg let me pose this question. Is it easier to split your marines or is it easier for you to attack marines using your banelings? We all wish we could split like MVP and MKP but that just isn't the case.
now add in the zerg having to split his banelings so that tanks cant kill big clumps of them at a time as they roll towards the stimmed marines that move faster than them.
|
On December 01 2011 07:29 raginglemon wrote:
For those who think Terran micro is on par with say zerg let me pose this question. Is it easier to split your marines or is it easier for you to attack marines using your banelings? We all wish we could split like MVP and MKP but that just isn't the case.
Didn't read the thread the past few pages but did someone honestly think marine splitting, and focus firing banes with tankfire, is easier then rolling banes in with lings? :p..
Even on the highest level I still see zergs A-move their banes here and there inefficiently. Example being just recently lucky a-moving 40 banelings onto nada's thor and tank, killing neither, and not touching the marines at all. Lucky still ending up winning rather easily though... and the fact that lots of zergs can get away with playing sloppy like this on the pro level speaks great volumes of the margin of error zerg have in the bane vs bio battle. >_<
|
On December 01 2011 07:36 hunts wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 07:29 raginglemon wrote:
For those who think Terran micro is on par with say zerg let me pose this question. Is it easier to split your marines or is it easier for you to attack marines using your banelings? We all wish we could split like MVP and MKP but that just isn't the case. now add in the zerg having to split his banelings so that tanks cant kill big clumps of them at a time as they roll towards the stimmed marines that move faster than them.
I off race Z once in a while, and shift queing small groups of baneling targets is alot easier than splitting marines. I'm not sure if its like this for everyone else, but I find when I off race the skills I picked up playing terran help me do much better with Z or P. I'm not sure it works the other way around.
|
On November 30 2011 13:12 Endymion wrote:
u gotta sk8
furthermore, when is 30/11/2011...
Today. Even right now I'm taking a break from a day of typing 30/11/11 for a hundred different documents I gotta sort.
|
On December 01 2011 07:30 keglu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 06:14 ceaRshaf wrote:On December 01 2011 05:50 Superneenja wrote:
I love how alot of people are suggesting builds/tech paths, theres a reason why we stick to a certain strategy.. its been tested out time and time again in Korea. Mech in TvP what a joke, warp a few units in the T main and if the army is out of position more than likely going to cause way more damage than 2-3 units should.
In BW it was far more important to deny arbiters in your base to prevent recall and it was possible, but with a lot of skill. You can't deny a warpprism if you want to? Bagi: I can bet you that the pros will change their strategies in 2012 and you will forget my posts and it's ok. But I don't need to be a pro to see that late game terrans don't have a good plan going against protoss. Killer steam rolls late game vs bio. I mean he owns them. Protoss not only did catch up but has passed terrans in the metagame. And you forget the time when terrans did not use ghosts while people theorized the potential of ghosts. And now ghosts are essential. Ravens are next. Edit: And most of the players are copy paste of real innovators of strategies. The innovators are few and are in the top, because that's why they are copied. MVP has no reason to change his style now, but if MVP wants to i think he can make mech viable. MVP has every reason to change his style in TvP since its his only weakness and he is heavy mech user in other 2 matchups yet he does not do it.
Yeah lots of people said jjakji made mech viable but not really... 1st style was gimmicky mass thor build.
Third match jjakji did a similar mvp style marine/tank contain which put him ahead, then switched to maruader and ghosts... both these were more surprise/gimmick style rather than being able to shift the metagame away from mmm balls.
I do think HOTS will let mech viable vs toss though 
|
Zergs don't have to micro the banes that much but they do send them to relevant packs of marines and in the same time try to surround with zerglings.
And Stephano zergling play is so effective because he microes the zerglings in small packs to get the most out of them.
And the essence of zerg is to macro in the same time so that they have a second wave ready (aka once 200/200, always 200). This is what the swarm means after all. If you look at idra he doesn't micro a lot but he is like a macro beast that overwhelms the opponent with power.
Different races play different.
|
On December 01 2011 03:11 DarK[A] wrote:
I don't really get the point of this thread. Terran players are bad?
Whining about how micro-intensive Terran is would be comparable to me whining about how I can never keep up with injects and my queens' energy is always floating high. I'm not going to make a thread about it, I'm going to practice injecting and macroing while I'm elsewhere on the map. With Terran you have to out micro your opponent in certain engagements, with Zerg you have to outproduce your opponent and be able to remax quickly mid-late game. I can't speak for the Brotoss but I'm sure someone can step in and say something that they have to worry about incessantly that other races don't.
Nope, Protoss is very relaxing to play.
You can pretty much win with whatever you do.
Edit: Protoss player, obviously.
|
On December 01 2011 07:48 ceaRshaf wrote:
Zergs don't have to micro the banes that much but they do send them to relevant packs of marines and in the same time try to surround with zerglings.
And Stephano zergling play is so effective because he microes the zerglings in small packs to get the most out of them.
And the essence of zerg is to macro in the same time so that they have a second wave ready (aka once 200/200, always 200). This is what the swarm means after all. If you look at idra he doesn't micro a lot but he is like a macro beast that overwhelms the opponent with power.
Different races play different.
Yeah stephano also does clever things like deal with initial tankfire with infested terran eggs a split second before he engages with lings/banes so that more of them can get in position before they can get picked off.
|
On December 01 2011 07:28 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 07:09 Roxy wrote:On December 01 2011 07:02 aTnClouD wrote:
Well terran is by an huge amount the hardest race in the game, no doubt. I am not sure if the game is balanced at the current korean highest level but I can see for sure the level of knowledge and mechanics protoss and zerg require is incomparably inferior. Especially protoss. Zerg can be hard aswell but to a very good and experienced mechanical player from scbw there's not much else to learn. This is the reason foreign terrans do bad. They simply don't have a structure and practice with good enough players to keep up with korean terrans so they just lose to the easier to play races. Ya, god forbid admitting to the possibility that you are just bad. User was temp banned for this post. I know I shouldn't answer to this taunt but even if I was really just bad there's no other explaination to the decline of the terran race outside korea. I've tried playing protoss multiple times in the past (in the only matchup I know for SC2 protoss, PvT) and I could easily beat some of the top terrans in Europe by just camping, chronoboosting my upgrades and waiting on 3 bases. That's basically what every protoss does now and the amount of skill and multitasking it takes is so ridicolously low I feel like crying whenever I think I could have just kept playing protoss when SC2 started. If warpgate was not in the game it would be much different, not having to deal with walking distances and smartcasting makes everything way way WAY easier.
While this is true, I believe a lot of it has to do with the Colossus + Wargate tech  The whole Colossus : Viking/Corruptor relationship is horrible, as is the trading armies cost effectively, and then the Protoss remaxes right outside your base via pylon or prism, with zero build time and zero travel time.
|
The fundamental problem with terran currently is all terran does is all in or timing attack, they are very similar to how protoss once was, all ining instead of actually figuring out a standard way of playing. Watching terran koreans play, yes they all in but everyone of them can have very solid extended macro games. Terran has to learn how to play because mass medivac drops and 1-1-1's are finally starting to get figured out. I know this wont help any terran player immediatly but learn how to play without scv marine all in and maybe u will win a big tournament like zerg and protoss have been~
|
On December 01 2011 03:11 DarK[A] wrote:
I don't really get the point of this thread. Terran players are bad?
Whining about how micro-intensive Terran is would be comparable to me whining about how I can never keep up with injects and my queens' energy is always floating high. I'm not going to make a thread about it, I'm going to practice injecting and macroing while I'm elsewhere on the map. With Terran you have to out micro your opponent in certain engagements, with Zerg you have to outproduce your opponent and be able to remax quickly mid-late game. I can't speak for the Brotoss but I'm sure someone can step in and say something that they have to worry about incessantly that other races don't.
I agree, as protoss you have to worry about chronoboosting your upgs early on so you can roll over your opponent even easier when you get to 200/200 of your 3 base!
|
On December 01 2011 07:09 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 06:58 ppdealer wrote:On December 01 2011 06:11 mlspmatt wrote:Terran micro is simply more rewarding, not more difficult Yeah, that's why Terran is doing so well outside Korea. Come on. With the increased skill cap Terran has comes the OBLIGATION to use that skill cap to equal the other races. The micro and multitasking is clearly more difficult, but you can delude yourself in believing otherwise. You have no proof that this so called "increased skill cap" lies in micros requirement as opposed to game sense requirement. And Terran are obliged to use their race to their full potential? LOL I don't think you understand the whole idea of competitive gaming. You must really hate esport if you think players should be able to do well at the top without actually using everything that's given to them in the game. If there's something truly broken, Blizzard should just fix what's broken, i.e. increase the animation cool-down for marine/marauder so they can't be stutter-stepped as well, just like they did with reaver in BW. The wrong thing to do is to make one race so imbalanced at the top just to compensate all the scrubs at the lower level that it will literally destroys the whole competitive scene. Last time I checked there's no Global Red Alert League or anything resembling it. We will soon if everyone starts switching to Terran at the top level play because it's the only race viable. TLDR: (Some) low-level Terran are really a bunch of entitled crybabies. I don't know where people get the audacity to put their own low-level frustration ahead of the top-level play, where people's careers and livelihood are directly affected by game balance. You are braver than I sir, but I totally agree. All of the recent threads have basicly come down to "make the game easier for me, you removed all the abusive things I used and its not fair".
I'm amazed so many people think the bronze - platinum players arnt important. We make up 80% of all players. This is blizzards design.
I'd have little interest in SC2 if i didn't play it and enjoy playing it. I watch player streams and tournaments, and keep an eye on TL forums. I imagine many other bronze - plats do the same and they are probably a large proportion of stream viewers.
my point
If we bronze to plat players arnt happy, we'll leave.
THATS 80% OF PLAYERS.
so get of your high horse about pro players and their livelihoods when WE 80% allow them to have it.
|
Since when is there a fundamental problem with Terran? Why are you making an argument based around ignoring their amazing performance in the GSL? The game should be balanced purely for highest level play, first and only.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
