EPT[D] Fundamental problems with Terran - Page 11
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SpunXtain
Australia165 Posts
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deadmau
960 Posts
On November 30 2011 20:05 SpunXtain wrote: I wish with warpgate they would give some bonus to gateway units over warp gates, so that you're not forced into warpgates every game. So easy to do. Removing Warpgates is the better solution I believe, check below. On November 30 2011 18:01 sleepingdog wrote: it's more or less impossible to have 3 different races who play "exactly" the same on all levels of skill - I'm protoss and definitely thinkt that due to the mechanics of the race, zerg is the most difficult to grasp for a beginner. Even though in lower leagues it's all about a-move and macro, zerg is so unforgiving that any basic mistakes just kills them outright while terrans can hide behind bunkers and protoss has forcefields. Is this fair? No. But that's how Nevertheless I won't deny that there are fundamental flaws with protoss, mainly due to warpgate mechanics. Personally, I think that pylons just shouldn't provide for warp-ins...warp-ins should be limited to a huge radius around a nexus and the warpprism. That would solve so, so many problems... Diamond toss here, i wholeheartedly agree with that last paragraph. Nerf Warpgate, Buff the Gateway units so that we don't suffer from worse defenders advantage, as warpin in at home with units that are intentionally nerfed (T1-1.5) to balance out warping (or reinforcing) at anywhere on map gives us less of a defenders advantage than other races. How can you lowbies not understand yet, it is not Terran or Zerg that has defenders advantage handicapp, it is PROTOSS, because our gateway untis are INTENTIONALLY NERFED to balance out that stupid warp mechanic. It's fun, it's kinda cool, but stupid as shit to balance my god, rather it not be there so that I dont' have to hear the idiotic whining coming out of Zergs and Terrans. Please for christs sake get this through your thick skulls, or better yet forget my shit explanation and read this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=263636 | ||
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StuartLove
Germany267 Posts
User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Ighox
Norway580 Posts
On November 30 2011 19:53 Eviscerador wrote: I don't think so, if terran is already finished, then why do they add new units and remove some others in HotS? I don't think every race should have wide unit choices and units with the same potential for micro. Do you imagine that zerlings had the same potential for micro than marines? I mean, you can build 80 of them ezpz in 20 secs. Think about building 40 marines in 20 secs every production cycle... I didn't say every unit should have the same micro potential as a marine, but both zerg and toss should have units that have about the same potential as a marine. Just saying that as of now terran have had so many strategies based on micro and many of the units can be microed really well, while both zerg and protoss is more of a 1a-move race (sure you can micro with these races as well, but far far less than terran.) Blizzard doesn't seem to have an answer to this though, the hots units adds nearly no micro, at least from what they've shown so far, which sort of sucks. | ||
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Saechiis
Netherlands4989 Posts
On November 30 2011 20:10 StuartLove wrote: goody won battle in berlin, stop mixing up things or leave posting at all. Nerchio won Battle in Berlin. | ||
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Satiinifi
Finland192 Posts
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SpunXtain
Australia165 Posts
On November 30 2011 20:10 StuartLove wrote: goody won battle in berlin, stop mixing up things or leave posting at all. Good troll. Goody lost to Nerchio, if you're not going to check yourself beforehand don't try and correct others. | ||
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hugman
Sweden4644 Posts
I don't see it as a problem. | ||
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Mentor
Germany219 Posts
Zerg and Protoss macro requires alot more apm with injects, creep spread, warp-ins and chronos, while Terrans only have to check their queues from time to time for which they don't need to go back to their base. Missing a mule timing isn't nearly as critical as missing an inject or a warp-in cycle. So the multitasking requirements for each race even out ultimately imo. | ||
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SpunXtain
Australia165 Posts
On November 30 2011 16:01 headbus wrote: This is totally fucking irrelevant. You're saying it takes more skill to control terran and because of that lower leagues suffer because terran is UP. You completely ignore the fact that lower level zergs don't inject or spread creep nearly as well, but that has no effect on the outcome of a game either, or that protoss needs to micro forcefields, guardian shields, zealot positioning, storms, blink, collosi positioning, feedback. Again though none of that has any outcome in the game either. If a terran wants to win a game he must micro his units perfectly, and its much too hard for someone in silver level to stim up a bioball and a click, oh and maybe they have to move a fucking patch of units out of a storm. My post is totally biased but you get the point. That and you quoted a bunch of results from protoss and zerg, but that was biased too, "1st and 4th protoss zerg, terran UP!" Wait doesn't that mean terran came 2nd and 3rd? You claim only 2 terrans in top 10 foreigner scene, holy shit terran UP, must be because race is too hard to play when I have mules for increased 1 base income, scans for whenever I don't have detection and the cheapest highest dps and best scaling unit in the game. Yeah I mean, this GSL only had 2 terrans in ro4, must mean we're not strong enough. Use your fucking head before you make another whiny bitch post about how I'm not good enough to be in master league and its because I play terran and they're too hard to control. Oh and btw, blizzard has stated multiple times that the game is being balanced around pro level gameplay, if you want a crutch because your bad, maybe you should start playing on normal speed against the computer, I heard that makes it easier to control banshee's. No... it means Koreans came 2nd and 3rd, which I stated in the post if you actually read. And yes, it is being balanced around 'pro level players' - turns out 'pro level players' seem to experience this phenomena as well. As I pointed out with the results I posted. You've clearly missed the entire point of this thread; as I stated it has absolutely nothing to do with me and I'm arguing that at GSL level the game IS balanced and that is WHY its not balanced at levels that ARENT GSL. Turns out theres a lot of money going out in foreign tournaments as well that, by your logic, Blizzard is not balancing for. I hate when people rage and claim people are idiots etc. when they don't even read / understand the post themselves. | ||
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SpunXtain
Australia165 Posts
On November 30 2011 20:58 Mentor wrote: Since Terran has the easiest time macroing, I feel that it's only fair that the effectiveness of the terran units is a bit more dependant on good micro. Zerg and Protoss macro requires alot more apm with injects, creep spread, warp-ins and chronos, while Terrans only have to check their queues from time to time for which they don't need to go back to their base. Missing a mule timing isn't nearly as critical as missing an inject or a warp-in cycle. So the multitasking requirements for each race even out ultimately imo. Debatable, in my opinion Terran has the hardest time macroing because MULEs (which the game is balanced around) create a fluctuating income rate for the players, hence it is a lot harder to keep your money consistently low. Furthermore, Terran needs to invest a lot more money into building structures to sustain late game tech switches etc. in their macro, and while Protoss/Zerg can create units inbetween battles and micro situations a lot easier, Terran needs to be constantly macroing at the same time. But I respect your opinion and can understand the argument you're making - I agree missing a mule can be less tolling than missing an inject or warp cycle. Edit: However, missing a warp cycle is not the same as missing a mule; missing a warp cycle is the same as missing unit creation for Terran. Missing a mule is similar to missing a chronoboost for Protoss, which you can use later on the same as a Mule to catch up to an extent for this mistake. | ||
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sunman1g
United States334 Posts
On November 30 2011 20:58 Mentor wrote: Since Terran has the easiest time macroing, I feel that it's only fair that the effectiveness of the terran units is a bit more dependant on good micro. Zerg and Protoss macro requires alot more apm with injects, creep spread, warp-ins and chronos, while Terrans only have to check their queues from time to time for which they don't need to go back to their base. Missing a mule timing isn't nearly as critical as missing an inject or a warp-in cycle. So the multitasking requirements for each race even out ultimately imo. lol terran has the easiest time macroing. ok i'm outta this topic. | ||
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Pulimuli
Sweden2766 Posts
This is nothing new | ||
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shinarit
Hungary900 Posts
Second, i would really like to see any good research on why other races wouldnt get better if microed perfectly. Tournament results are not really compelling, because they are not really measure skill precisely, only that is sure that the less player you have left the more the average skill is. On average. | ||
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karpo
Sweden1998 Posts
Idra is listed 3 times, does it have to do with race or that Idra is just pretty good? What if the level of the few zergs and protoss players (Idra, Elfi, Ret, Huk, Stephano) are higher skilled than terran players here in europe/us? Can i be that there's just a few really good players that can compete with koreans at all and chance has it that those players are mostly protoss and zerg? Can it be that the few great terrans outside of korea hasn't done exceptionally well latetly due to slumping/traveling? So many questions yet OP jumps directly on the UP bandwagon. | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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Sanchonator
Australia490 Posts
On November 30 2011 18:36 aFganFlyTrap wrote: did he play css or 1.6? he played source | ||
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Apolex
Canada103 Posts
if you take koreans out of the picture and watch the games without koreans ...you'll see that terran is fundamentally ... very very weak. But Koreans have overcome that with hard training ... good strategies and extremely good micro. It seems that it takes a lot more to be a good terran then a good zerg / protoss is what the op is trying to say. I don't believe the other two races can blame terrans for posting so much of these threads in the past weeks because it is EXTREMELY hard to play terran on ladder from bronze to mid masters. I can't say the same about GM level because i've never been there. http://www.sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all the stats do show that terran is under represented out of all three races from GM - Masters - Diamond - Platnium - even gold. It sky rockets at the silver and bronze levels. These are active players that have done their placements this season. While people argue it's easy to learn and play terran... it's definitely a lot harder to get good at it. | ||
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deadmau
960 Posts
On November 30 2011 21:38 tomatriedes wrote: In last month's TLPD win rate graph, which takes into account tournaments worldwide, terran was ahead of the other two races and, according to the same figures, has been ahead of the other two races since the game was released. Let me emphasize- this is not just GSL, but tournaments worldwide. I'm sorry OP, but these figures mean more to me than picking a few recent tournaments. Perhaps in next month's TLPD win rate graph we'll see slightly less terran domination but, if that's the case, that can only be a good thing, considering they've been ahead of the other two races since the game was released. About time one of the other two races in the game had a turn at the top, no? According to these terrans, no that is unacceptable, and requires severe balance changes by Blizzard, or T is UP and P/Z is OP. Astounding logiczzzz. | ||
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althaz
Australia1001 Posts
Examples of what I mean: Zerg - begin battle by manoeuvring several groups of units into a flanking position. Then check hatches for larva and queens for energy. Protoss - Forcefield, Storm, Focus Fire. Check building queues and chrono-boost and go to a pylon to warp in units. Terran - EMP, SNIPE. Stutter step bio and focus-fire tanks whilst continuing to check building queues and Orbital energy. <- This last is very hard for most people (especially people who didn't play Broodwar, IMO). Zerg and Protoss can do their setup micro (which is a lot more involved than Terrans with most compositions) then do their macroing. Terran needs to micro right through the whole battle. People who don't play Terran complain because Terran micro is drop-dead simple (and it mostly is, but simple does not equal easy). However people who do play Terran understand that keeping up that micro is actually quite difficult whilst also keeping on top of their macro. If Terran had to go back to their base like Zerg (for injects) and Protoss (for warpgates) then they would actually be quite weak in the late game, especially vs Protoss. I play all three races for what it's worth. EDIT: Also, it's probably worth pointing out that the main reason pro foreign Terrans aren't doing so well is actually because there just aren't many particularly good ones. I would probably say that Thorzain and Jinro are the best two but Jinro is in a bit of a slump and Thorzain (the best foreigner Terran, IMO) really needs to go back to Korea for a while. The best foreigners play Protoss and Zerg right now. Maybe because with those two races strategy is more important and mechanics less so, compared to Terran? | ||
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