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AcrosstheSky
United States237 Posts
first of all as protoss your also worry about tech switchs 2nd emp psi storm feedback snipe. it's a balanced war to whoever has the better micro and positioning on your where to engage. protoss has to do that to. stalkers have to focus down the vikings in the middle of this you have to manage the drops of terran and you have to go back to warp in units. so why QQ? just get better. every race has its own requirements.Stop creating arguments about Terran being imbalanced. | ||
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Reborn58
United States238 Posts
On November 30 2011 17:13 AcrosstheSky wrote: ok then zorbag. To your "questions" first of all as protoss your also worry about tech switchs 2nd emp psi storm feedback snipe. it's a balanced war to whoever has the better micro and positioning on your where to engage. protoss has to do that to. stalkers have to focus down the vikings in the middle of this you have to manage the drops of terran and you have to go back to warp in units. so why QQ? just get better. every race has its own requirements.Stop creating arguments about Terran being imbalanced. <3 | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9174 Posts
On November 30 2011 17:09 ZorBa.G wrote: So if P v P is poorly designed..... what does that mean for Protoss in general? My arguments aren't targeted to Protoss players directly, it's more targeted towards Blizzard. If you want to play a race my 6 year old brother can, go for it... but don't try and tell me it's a hard race to play out. And yeah, P v P has been held back by the 4-gate for ages..... I don't think there is anyone I know that can't do a 4-gate. I'm done with this. This whole thread is one ridiculous lowbie balance whine. Your race is not why you're still in gold/plat etc. | ||
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robopork
United States511 Posts
Terran doesn't suffer from the same gimmick balancing issues or lack of roundedness/flexibility- in fact, it has the latter in droves. But it does have to be scaled back to account for the glaring Achilles' heels the other two races suffer from. It's not really possible to tell, but at this point it looks like hots is going to help out but not completely solve the problem. | ||
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ZorBa.G
Australia279 Posts
On November 30 2011 17:13 AcrosstheSky wrote: ok then zorbag. To your "questions" first of all as protoss your also worry about tech switchs 2nd emp psi storm feedback snipe. it's a balanced war to whoever has the better micro and positioning on your where to engage. protoss has to do that to. stalkers have to focus down the vikings in the middle of this you have to manage the drops of terran and you have to go back to warp in units. so why QQ? just get better. every race has its own requirements.Stop creating arguments about Terran being imbalanced. Ok, you won. If you can't handle that micro just get 3/3 Chargelot/Archon. Unfortunately Terrans don't have that luxury of an almost invincible microless late game composition. But I get it, you proved your point. Protoss does require some intensive micro. | ||
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
On November 30 2011 17:24 ZorBa.G wrote: Ok, you won. If you can't handle that micro just get 3/3 Chargelot/Archon. Unfortunately Terrans don't have that luxury of an almost invincible microless late game composition. But I get it, you proved your point. Protoss does require some intensive micro. DUDE, STIM+KITING Is the fucking easies micro there is out there. If you can't do that please go play zerg, but be aware, you need to macro a lot more. | ||
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Ace.Xile
United States286 Posts
On November 30 2011 17:24 ZorBa.G wrote: Ok, you won. If you can't handle that micro just get 3/3 Chargelot/Archon. Unfortunately Terrans don't have that luxury of an almost invincible microless late game composition. But I get it, you proved your point. Protoss does require some intensive micro. I'm curious as to what league you're in. Up to diamond/masters all you need is good macro, you can almost not micro and win games straight out. However by the time you get into these leagues your micro should be more than efficient enough to handle terran micro which for the most part is having different control groups attack different things and marine splits/marine kites. Which most other races do short of marine splits. From then on it's not even an argument of your micro (which will improve) it's more of a game sense/build knowledge/multi-tasking level. I don't understand the gripe about terran micro. yes you have to micro marines away from banelings (in a zvt where i play zerg), and at the same time you have to hit your hot keys to que/build units, but at the same time the zerg is running in his lings, targeting the siege tanks down with mutas, and manually moving the banelings to hit marines so they don't "a move" onto the siege tanks, so they're doing essentially the same thing you're doing... except they have to attack que (or manually attack) the mutas on the siege tanks, all while keeping up on larva injects, spreading creep if applicable and keeping an obvious eye out for drops. They don't seem much different although i'd still argue that the need for larva injects (hitting them consistently) while microing seems a tid bit harder to do than just a simple 1 or 2 hotkey hit and unit making, due to the fact that you have to cycle from often times 4+ hatcheries and manually move your screen away from your possible micro area (assuming you choose to do so), often times just dropping alone even if no physical damage is done, will result in a player missing larva injects, doing actual damage. | ||
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Ktk
Korea (South)753 Posts
There should be a poll with what league everyone in this thread is. I had just assumed everyone in this thread was a top-tier ladder player! | ||
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Ryguy50
Canada12 Posts
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
Is this fair? No. But that's how Nevertheless I won't deny that there are fundamental flaws with protoss, mainly due to warpgate mechanics. Personally, I think that pylons just shouldn't provide for warp-ins...warp-ins should be limited to a huge radius around a nexus and the warpprism. That would solve so, so many problems... | ||
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Endrew
Poland73 Posts
On November 30 2011 14:34 sunman1g wrote: the balance of TvX is already horrible at master, below master is a joke and in fact i am not surprised by the stats at blizzcon that showed how P was winning 60%+ of their games vs terran. i personally stopped playing several months ago. i used to be a mid/high master terran player but i got so pissed because of what they are doing with the balance that i eventually quit. the game became too much stress and no fun for me, and i feel lots of terran players in every division are in the same boat. the "terran racism" from the community does not help either. now i am just a (happy) watcher that does not play anymore. yeeeey. Pretty much exactly like my case, except I'm/was Diamond. | ||
enCore-
98 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9447 Posts
On November 30 2011 16:54 ceaRshaf wrote: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Early game: 8 Marines vs 2 Stalkers Terran POV: CTR+A in the direction of the kiting Stalkers and hope to hit them. From time to time target the injured Stalker. Protoss POV: Kite the Marines, if possible target the injured one and must place the Stalker with higher shield in the back to absorb hits from Marines. If both micro perfectly Protoss always wins and no stalker lost. Of none of them micro, Terran always wins. Late Game: Death Ball vs Bio Ball Collosus + Immortals + HTs + Archons + Stalkers + Zealots + Sentries + Warpprism Marines + Maraders + Ghosts + Vikings + Medivacs. Terran POV: Use the vikings to target Collosus without taking hits from stalkers. Position the Ghosts and try to effectively EMP the important units. Snipe vulnerable HTs. Move the Bio Ball to bate Storms and doge them. Steam and attack + storm dodge. Protoss POV: Spread the army in a thin line. Position the units to have maximum efficiency. Dodge the Vikings with the Collosus and blink the stalkers + target Vikings. Try to Feedback/Storm before the fight begins. Attack, target with the Collosus the front line of Marines, Dodge the injured one from Vikings, Blink Stalkers to kill Vikings. Force Field the back of the Bio Ball. Drop HTs from Prism and Storm the army. Perfect Micro for both players the Protoss wins most of the time. No Micro and terran is on equal chances. Note, I am saying this because I consider the Death Ball vs the Bio Ball a safe win for protoss late game because the Bio is weak. This is why terrans need to shape their things up because this style of play is getting old. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Anyway, TL;DR Stop making excuses, high level terrans win with skill and terran does not require more micro than protoss, and that is by a long shot. THis is just extremely biased. Early game with marines you have to put out injured marines away, and you dont always 1a, you some itmes move back and 1a ahead and try to take the toss by surprise. But anyway im not gonna argue that terran is hard early and mid, becasue they really aren't, but what is relevant in the balance discussion is late game, and you have made some big mistakes when analyzing typical "high level toss vs terran play". 1) Toss dont pull collosus away during battles. They 1a them (target firing marines compared to mauruders isn't that important). 2) Spreading out their unit will happen prebattle (not during a battle). 3) Toss will some times blink their stalkers to get closer to the vikings. This is however an extremely easy mechanic. 4) "Force Field the back of the Bio Ball. Drop HTs from Prism and Storm the army." THis isn't relevant in 99% of TvP's late game. In the end what toss has to do: 1) Make sure chargelots are in the front prebattle. 2) Make sure collosus are somewhat protected from vikigns prebattle (surrounded by stlakers). 3) 1a(2a) a lot of stuff, and storm some of the bio units. 4) Blink stalkers in the direction of vikings. This is what terran has to do before and during a battle: 1) Make sure everything is perfectly positioned relative to each other: Ghost, bio units and vikings, while spreading them out. 2) Emp everything you can during battle but be sure that you have the priotizizes correct (e.g. HT are most important, but also most difficult to hit as they are behind the army). Often time your ghosts will get stuck before they can hit HT, and hitting emps with slightl lag (as there is in bnet 2.0) can be difficult. The difference in using emp and storm is that with storm you dont have to prioritze that much. If there is a big clump of bio units you hold down t and click a lot of times. 3) Shift attack vikings on collosus. 4) Kite with bio units. Most of the time (in a 200 food battles vs AOE) you cant simply 1a (click back), 1a (click back), but you have to kite small groups of your army. THis becomes extremely hard. 5) Pull your ghosts away as well after they have emped (not veyr hard in it self). IMo the above is what typical terrans are typical protoss (gm level) are trying to execute. The difference is that doing all this stuff optimal is so much harder for terran. Sure its possible for terran to be cost efficient vs toss if you master those 5 steps, but even then, if the toss has a good sense of economy mangement, he can rebuild so fast that the game is almost back to even (unless you absolutey destory him in that battle which shouldn't happen unless the terran compltely destorys the toss in the battle (which can only happen if the toss makes huges blunders). ANother concept that makes terran harder late game is that terrans has to constantly react to toss tech switches. Late game toss can have a few robotics facitlies, and as terran it becomes insanely hard to predcit the optimal amoount of vikings you need. IMO late game tvp is absolutely broken. Medicore toss play beats mediocore terran plays. And even in korea terrans dont seem comfortable late game vs toss( as they do all kind of crazy stuff right now). I hope blizzard will fix the matchup soon, because right now terran isn't worth playing unless you like to do allins. | ||
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
On November 30 2011 18:20 enCore- wrote: I have played over 1500 games with terran in a high master area, it is by far the hardest race to micro properly. You lose with equal micro capabilities to your opponent outright most of the time. That's why I'm switching to zerg, and beating masters after a couple of games. But you do understand that this is just your opinion right? If you were random than your subjective opinion would have had weight. As it is you are just telling everyone else that your race is the hardest. And guess what, this is what everybody does. @Hider : I showed what both have to do before the battle and during. So you take out from the list the stalkers job against the viking because it's easy to do? It's a micro task that you have to do during a 5 second battle. And no, you don't just 1a your collosus because they might all target 2 marines that are on the side of the battle, and this way you gain lots of hits from the viking. Also, it is necessary to dodge the vikings during the battle because often times the bio will retreat out of range to micro against the zealots so the collosus become useless but you don't want to lose them to nothing. But if we are to oversimplify for the sake of our race: Terran: EMP and 1A the bio then stutter step till they gg. | ||
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aFganFlyTrap
Australia212 Posts
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Sanchonator
Australia490 Posts
i like how after dominating since release (in the gsl/korean scene at least) terran players have decided that the race is bad because the winrates are starting to even out... | ||
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aFganFlyTrap
Australia212 Posts
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VoO
Germany278 Posts
I play Terran Master, Protoss/Zerg high Diamond and let me say that once you got into Platinum with Protoss/Zerg, it is just deathball a-click/muta/ling. Not a single shred of micro needed. Furthermore Terran can't keep up with a 20 Nexus or early mass lings. So if you survive the first 10 minutes, you win about 90% of your games. As a Master Terran, I only win if I play perfectly and the enemy does major mistakes. That's the reality in Diamond/Master. But probably I get flamed anyway since the Day9 bronzies out there think nobody has the right to criticize the imbalance currently existing in this game and guess what HotS will just introduce new imbalances, not fixing them. | ||
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FreeTossCZComentary
Czech Republic143 Posts
I don't think that SCII is imbalanced... I don't think that some race is OP... my opinion is that SCII is game that is just totaly incomplete and have some... wierd mechanics. What do I mean? I dislike way PvT is played. If Terran choses to play straight macro against me(my main is toss), he cannot win and I know it... but when close positions by air, I have really hard times to defend drops, which are, unlike in SC1, easier to do, and moreover, Terran will almost everytime have dropping units. Points that I thinks that are problem are these: Terran units are too cheesish(Banshee is too weak as real unit and too strong against workers once it gets cloak, but after early game... it sucks)/all-inish/dropish(Hellion is just bad concept that is only good vs workers, because of its splash style, but except for that, it sucks), while in straight fight, they most time sucks, and their lategame units... do they actually have some real T3 unit? (This is problem with TvP... how can PvT remain balanced when it should be fair when terran have complete tech tree, which is easier to get, and should remain fair after Toss reaches all Tech tree buildings, which is like year after terran is possible to do so) There are too few units for each race, and implementing more ones(like in HOTS) would be hard, because Terran don't have tech buildings (Tech lab is not REAL tech building). My opinion is that SCII now is like playing Chess on 6x6 battlefield without knights... yes, it would be balanced... but it feels like it have long way to go before it can be said to be completed. If I was SC2 balance maker I would: -Add one tech building for Terran -Add one unit to each unit producing building of Terran, Protoss, 3 new to Hatches -Remove hellions and replace them with more armored and durable, slower version of vulture with circle(no line omg) splash. -Remove cloak from banshee and make it more durant instead(giving cloak to some new unit). Maybe I am wrong... but I feel this way... and if you think my post is not good, just delete it, or ignore it. | ||
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Deckkie
Netherlands1595 Posts
To settle this, I would love it if these people just post some replays as proof what race is so much harder. No replay no arguement imo. | ||
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