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Swwww
Switzerland812 Posts
On November 30 2011 15:05 Whomp wrote: Fundamental problem with terran? Mules on gold, bam solved this thread!!! lock it up boys Way to contribute to the thread. | ||
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Entteri
Finland108 Posts
I personally don't care if im supposed to outmicro someone in the ladder (and it doesnt really matter at lower level), but it's pretty sad if the foreign pros can't have success in tournaments because of it. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
Most of the nerfs to Terran hasn't really affected this situation. Tank damage was nerfed, but using tanks demands quite a bit of micro already. Reaper timings were nerfed, but using reapers already require micro. What we would expect if Blizzard balanced the way you mean, would for example be a damage nerf to marines, since that would make it OK that they survive "too long" because of good micro, and it would at the same time be detrimental for low-level players since their marines are dying very quickly. | ||
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Scarecrow
Korea (South)9172 Posts
On November 30 2011 22:49 Hider wrote: This isn't really the point of discussion. Terran can do a lot of stupid shit early/mid game, and hence win. I would like to know what are the probabilites of teran winning in games longer than 25 minutes? Tomatriedes' post is exactly the point and the thread should be closed. The premise is fundamentally flawed. You'd have us balancing around 25+ minute games -.-? The other contention that terran takes more multitask/mechanics is iffy and isn't seen in the winrates. There's alot of hidden actions that aren't considered, terran muling is very forgiving and don't even try and compare it to chronoboost. Terran macro can be done purely off hotkeys while controlling an army, you don't even have to shift your camera. Toss on the other hand has to look away from whatever they're doing to manually hit unit hotkeys and click the ground X amount of times. Terran has one rally point, toss has to do the rally point click for every single unit they build (it's not flashy but does take actions). Injects and creep spread for zerg are seriously important as is being active with your lings/mutas. All races get better as the player gets better. Queueing 1-2 units late game also helps those without perfect macro (Goody and all non-pro T's), toss/zerg miss inject/wg cycles and they are punished more severely. I just wish the 'but Terran's so hard for non koreans' people would realise their race is at least as forgiving and 'easy' as the others. On November 30 2011 22:51 Hider wrote: IMO to play terran late game is still harder than playing the other races. So what? Maybe it is but balance is hard enough without trying for anything beyond overall winrates. Terrans win more than enough early/mid games to make up for having some trouble late game. | ||
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diLLa
Netherlands247 Posts
Massive balance whine, even though it's stated as not being one. To be honest, this is the first time in the history of Starcraft 2 so far, where we see glimps of Terrans struggling, all the months before this both Protoss & Zerg had it hard, and still do in some ways. There has been nearly no change in Terran builds, compositions and playstyle during this whole history ever, so maybe look at that first before claiming that the Terran race has fundamental problems. All the Terran builds I encounter in Diamond league are the same as the ones I encountered a full year ago. Weird, since It has been acknowledged pretty much by everyone that the Terran race has the most options of all 3 races. While I agree that Bio micro may be intensive, the Terran race as a whole has forgiving stuff in other areas like: - Detection is an option all the time. - Mules can cover up for a lot of scv losses, while other races would straight up die if they lose a good chunk of their workers - Easy wall-in to deny scouting, making predicting terran builds much harder And I'm sure I've missed a few things. The races are different, pick races based on your playstyle. Don't complain that a race is not styled to suit your play. | ||
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Xirroh
Canada146 Posts
The races are different and thus require different skill sets. Certainly you are correct in that this means at some point Terran players will require 'better' unit control then their opponent to defeat them, and this will disappear at the highest levels of play where every race needs perfect control. However other parts of play are more challenging for other races. Larva management is very difficult and very important to victory at higher levels of play. Terrans never need to worry about this, or creep spread, or pylon placement. Warp-In requires the player to be viewing an area of screen with pylon power, taking them away from the main battle. Terran players can build units with their screen anywhere on the map. The list of different demands goes on. At very early levels (bronze - silver) Zerg is the hardest to play because larva inject and creep spread take up too much APM compared to barracks spam. In BW Terrans were considered the hardest to play (just ask Artosis, lol) for the same reason, high micro demand. However they also have the best players and the most championship wins. Protoss - considered the easiest in terms of unit control (hello 12 units per group max) have the least BW success. This is because there is more to the game the unit control, and other races have other aspects of the game which are harder for them. So, YES Terrans require the most unit micro. NO this doesn't mean they are any easier or harder to play at any level. Although it COULD be unbalanced (but probably isn't). | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On November 30 2011 23:24 Scarecrow wrote: Tomatriedes' post is exactly the point and the thread should be closed. The premise is fundamentally flawed. You'd have us balancing around 25+ minute games -.-? The other contention that terran takes more multitask/mechanics is iffy and isn't seen in the winrates. There's alot of hidden actions that aren't considered, terran muling is very forgiving and don't even try and compare it to chronoboost. Terran macro can be done purely off hotkeys while controlling an army, you don't even have to shift your camera. Toss on the other hand has to look away from whatever they're doing to manually hit unit hotkeys and click the ground X amount of times. Terran has one rally point, toss has to do the rally point click for every single unit they build (it's not flashy but does take actions). Injects and creep spread for zerg are seriously important as is being active with your lings/mutas. All races get better as the player gets better. Queueing 1-2 units late game also helps those without perfect macro (Goody and all non-pro T's), toss/zerg miss inject/wg cycles and they are punished more severely. I just wish the 'but Terran's so hard for non koreans' people would realise their race is at least as forgiving and 'easy' as the others. Exactly. And I would like to point out that among the slow pro players, Terrans are the ones who do the best (Sjow, Goody), compared to slow Protosses like Incontrol, Axslav or (ex) Cruncher, who, let's be honest, don't win games. And there is no slow pro zerg (:D). I totally agree that Sjow or Goody are not of the caliber of MVP or MMA (to the point where they don't even seem to play the same race), but they win their fair share of games. Fucking Goody beat fucking Nestea, even if it was a long time ago, it's a hard thing to imagine. | ||
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Dew.
Brazil104 Posts
On November 30 2011 21:38 tomatriedes wrote: In last month's TLPD win rate graph, which takes into account tournaments worldwide, terran was ahead of the other two races and, according to the same figures, has been ahead of the other two races since the game was released. Let me emphasize- this is not just GSL, but tournaments worldwide. I'm sorry OP, but these figures mean more to me than picking a few recent tournaments. Perhaps in next month's TLPD win rate graph we'll see slightly less terran domination but, if that's the case, that can only be a good thing, considering they've been ahead of the other two races since the game was released. About time one of the other two races in the game had a turn at the top, no? This. It was meant to happen someday, now the crazy koreans will adapt, and soon the rest of the world as well. Eventually Terrans will begin to dominate again. Just have fun playing and abuse the million builds terran have. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
On November 30 2011 22:49 Hider wrote: This isn't really the point of discussion. Terran can do a lot of stupid shit early/mid game, and hence win. I would like to know what are the probabilites of teran winning in games longer than 25 minutes? Take adventage of the supperiority of early/mid game damage MAYBE??? | ||
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kcbgoku
Poland156 Posts
The races are different, pick races based on your playstyle. Don't complain that a race is not styled to suit your play. ^This is the best way to summarize this. There are still broken things in this game but I don't think Terran's micro requirement is one of them. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
I've thought this was true for a long time now as well, and I don't see it as a huge problem. The fact that you have always room to improve makes the race more interesting and fun. I also think that the new terran units in HOTS might be there to help with this, as they seem less micro intensive and more about raw power. | ||
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SpunXtain
Australia165 Posts
On November 30 2011 23:31 Xirroh wrote: for OP: The races are different and thus require different skill sets. Certainly you are correct in that this means at some point Terran players will require 'better' unit control then their opponent to defeat them, and this will disappear at the highest levels of play where every race needs perfect control. However other parts of play are more challenging for other races. Larva management is very difficult and very important to victory at higher levels of play. Terrans never need to worry about this, or creep spread, or pylon placement. Warp-In requires the player to be viewing an area of screen with pylon power, taking them away from the main battle. Terran players can build units with their screen anywhere on the map. The list of different demands goes on. At very early levels (bronze - silver) Zerg is the hardest to play because larva inject and creep spread take up too much APM compared to barracks spam. In BW Terrans were considered the hardest to play (just ask Artosis, lol) for the same reason, high micro demand. However they also have the best players and the most championship wins. Protoss - considered the easiest in terms of unit control (hello 12 units per group max) have the least BW success. This is because there is more to the game the unit control, and other races have other aspects of the game which are harder for them. So, YES Terrans require the most unit micro. NO this doesn't mean they are any easier or harder to play at any level. Although it COULD be unbalanced (but probably isn't). I know each race has its own challenges facing it :-) the fact its terran is just coincidental. As an example, imagine if you could put micro/multitasking etc on a scale 1-5 scale (5 being best): 5 - A = 100 B = 100 C = 100 4 - A = 80 B = 90 C = 90 3 - A = 60 B = 75 C = 70 2 - A = 50 B = 60 C = 40 1 - A = 45 B = 40 C = 30 By having such different mechanics in the game there are bound to be different thresholds where 1 race is comparatively better than the other. For example, the game might be balanced around the players at lvl5, so they're all equal. But then the players at lvl4 from group A are weaker than B / C. If they balance around those at lvl 4 so that A = 90 B = 90 C = 90, then at lvl 5 become A = 110, B = 100, C = 100. Its simply fundamentally hard to balance a game that has so much diversity in playstyles and rewards different levels of micromanagement in different ways. Perhaps Blizzard is trying to make the races *too* different from each other, to the point that its just impossible to have a game that is an even playing field at all the important levels? Perhaps lvl1-3 are casual gamers; they probably don't matter too much since they're just there to play for fun etc. But if there is a balance problem at say lvl4, where foreigners for example are playing competitively but arent at the same skill as korean pros, surely Blizzard would want to try and balance it for them as best as they could as well? | ||
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
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LeibSaiLeib
173 Posts
On November 30 2011 23:44 SpunXtain wrote: I know each race has its own challenges facing it :-) the fact its terran is just coincidental. As an example, imagine if you could put micro/multitasking etc on a scale 1-5 scale (5 being best): 5 - A = 100 B = 100 C = 100 4 - A = 80 B = 90 C = 90 3 - A = 60 B = 75 C = 70 2 - A = 50 B = 60 C = 40 1 - A = 45 B = 40 C = 30 By having such different mechanics in the game there are bound to be different thresholds where 1 race is comparatively better than the other. For example, the game might be balanced around the players at lvl5, so they're all equal. But then the players at lvl4 from group A are weaker than B / C. If they balance around those at lvl 4 so that A = 90 B = 90 C = 90, then at lvl 5 become A = 110, B = 100, C = 100. Its simply fundamentally hard to balance a game that has so much diversity in playstyles and rewards different levels of micromanagement in different ways. Perhaps Blizzard is trying to make the races *too* different from each other, to the point that its just impossible to have a game that is an even playing field at all the important levels? Perhaps lvl1-3 are casual gamers; they probably don't matter too much since they're just there to play for fun etc. But if there is a balance problem at say lvl4, where foreigners for example are playing competitively but arent at the same skill as korean pros, surely Blizzard would want to try and balance it for them as best as they could as well? If you think back to broodwar, noone really complained about protoss, prootos would be the easy race to start with, very easy, you just make units ant attack, no complicated stuff (low lvl). But blizzard is so obsessed with ballancing the whole spectrum and cant consider that the "broodwar prootos effect" is innevitable. but higher lvl it gets way harder, one misclick and you lose 5 dragoons to line of tanks in 1 second etc. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On November 30 2011 16:28 Neelia wrote: Forgot Overlord? Np, stockpile some larva. Forgot Pylon? Np, Warpgate cooldown resets anyway + Supply Depots take the most time to build out of the three. -_- I didn't realize I sounded like that, but you're missing my point by nitpicking the 2 sentences at the end. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9376 Posts
On November 30 2011 23:38 Belha wrote: Take adventage of the supperiority of early/mid game damage MAYBE??? Your again missing the point on a few levels here. Its simply bad design if a race cant win late game (or if its too hard tow in late game). | ||
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ceaRshaf
Romania4926 Posts
On November 30 2011 23:59 Hider wrote: Your again missing the point on a few levels here. Its simply bad design if a race cant win late game (or if its too hard tow in late game). After these recent patches we have terrans playing outdated strategies. It's fair for them to lose but not fair to call UP. Why doesn't Terran add 5-10 tanks to the BioBall? They want mobility? Well than they pay with vulnerability. | ||
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On November 30 2011 23:59 Hider wrote: Your again missing the point on a few levels here. Its simply bad design if a race cant win late game (or if its too hard tow in late game). Lol this reminds me of when terran said there's no way they could win a macro game back in March when the big maps started to come. Then they started to use 1 rax expand and realize how good it actually is. | ||
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mrafaeldie12
Brazil537 Posts
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RavenLoud
Canada1100 Posts
On December 01 2011 00:11 mrafaeldie12 wrote: I'm sorry but didn't MMA win a GSL where the Ro4 was only terran? You don't understand. Korean terrans aren't terran, they are Kerrans, and therefore do not ever matter in the balance of the true game that you and I are actually playing. Winrates for the top top doesn't really matter, nor at the bottom, but only at a specific level between diamond and mid masters. You see! Terran is now fundamentally broken because they require effort to win. | ||
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