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On December 01 2011 01:23 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 01:16 mvtaylor wrote:On December 01 2011 00:31 ceaRshaf wrote:On December 01 2011 00:22 Hider wrote:On December 01 2011 00:04 ceaRshaf wrote:On November 30 2011 23:59 Hider wrote:On November 30 2011 23:38 Belha wrote:On November 30 2011 22:49 Hider wrote:On November 30 2011 21:38 tomatriedes wrote:
In last month's TLPD win rate graph, which takes into account tournaments worldwide, terran was ahead of the other two races and, according to the same figures, has been ahead of the other two races since the game was released. Let me emphasize- this is not just GSL, but tournaments worldwide. I'm sorry OP, but these figures mean more to me than picking a few recent tournaments. Perhaps in next month's TLPD win rate graph we'll see slightly less terran domination but, if that's the case, that can only be a good thing, considering they've been ahead of the other two races since the game was released. About time one of the other two races in the game had a turn at the top, no? This isn't really the point of discussion. Terran can do a lot of stupid shit early/mid game, and hence win. I would like to know what are the probabilites of teran winning in games longer than 25 minutes? Take adventage of the supperiority of early/mid game damage MAYBE??? Your again missing the point on a few levels here. Its simply bad design if a race cant win late game (or if its too hard tow in late game). After these recent patches we have terrans playing outdated strategies. It's fair for them to lose but not fair to call UP. Why doesn't Terran add 5-10 tanks to the BioBall? They want mobility? Well than they pay with vulnerability. Wrong wrong. Terrans dont do outdated strategies. THey do optimal strategies. Bio is everything terran can do(thor/banshee is really really bad if the toss knows its ocmming and is reacting correctly). Tanks are just bad tvp btw. Btw I am not saying terran cant win. Im just saying its ´much harder for terran to win than it is for toss. Mediocore toss plays > beats mediocore terran play. Well maybe they should force tanks in the composition because they have splash. EMP the zealots and tanks melt them down. I find terrans really cocky that they want to win a fight with bio against a protoss army that has storm, colosus and archon, so big AOEs. T would need three flipping tank shots to destroy one zealot once it's shield had gone. Even without Zealot charge the Zealot would be close enough to a deployed tank before the third shot that the tank wouldn't fire. When it was a chargelot then the tank would fire once and then promptly be obliterated. Tanks do not work in a TvP that goes any sort of length due to zealot charge and stalker blink meaning they can be on top of a tank in second, blink allowing P to move around wherever the tanks happen to be, immortals negating the majority of tank damage while being able to three shot a tank in return, phoenixes being able to lift up deployed tanks... enough reasons? Meanwhile Hellions are far too flimsy (hurrah for HotS!) while Thors, Battlecruisers, Banshees and Ravens are all screaming "please feedback me!" and are easily countered with mass immortal for Thors and Stalkers/Phoenix/Voids depending on what air army Terran is going for. The only WORKABLE AoE Terran has is EMP and against mass chargelot that can at most reduce the P army to 66% of it's max hp and really isn't that big a deal considering armour is upgraded to 3 before shield is upgraded once and the innate +1 Zealots gain to their armour. First of all tanks should be placed behind the line. Blinking stalkers on top of the tanks should be suicide for the toss because bio would melt down everything. Second, EMPing and firing Seeker Missiles at the zealots would melt them and even if they don't they would not stand a chance in front of the bio + tanks. To delay the chargelots you can even path their way with Auto-Turrets. Blink stalkers would dance in front of point defence drones. And I am talking about a new composition, not using every unit on it's own, because that is fail. I think idra should start talking about the raven as he was about the ghost "People need to start using them".
The range on auto turret and seeker missile deployment is such that before a T can use it near a P army they'll be feedbacked to death. Likewise one feedback and the PDD is also gone. Also the chance to mass a tier 3 unit that costs 200 gas and can only be produced one at a time from a tier three tech building that requires an upgrade to use the strategies you are suggesting and will start 25/50 or 50/75 energy short of the spells you are mentioning (depending on upgrade) shows how non viable it is without crippling yourself to the level where P have massive windows where they acan deal significant damage.
EDIT: Last post I'm making in this thread, I've seen so many of these TvP threads recently which all go down the same path I cannot be bothered.
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On December 01 2011 00:22 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 00:04 ceaRshaf wrote:On November 30 2011 23:59 Hider wrote:On November 30 2011 23:38 Belha wrote:On November 30 2011 22:49 Hider wrote:On November 30 2011 21:38 tomatriedes wrote:
In last month's TLPD win rate graph, which takes into account tournaments worldwide, terran was ahead of the other two races and, according to the same figures, has been ahead of the other two races since the game was released. Let me emphasize- this is not just GSL, but tournaments worldwide. I'm sorry OP, but these figures mean more to me than picking a few recent tournaments. Perhaps in next month's TLPD win rate graph we'll see slightly less terran domination but, if that's the case, that can only be a good thing, considering they've been ahead of the other two races since the game was released. About time one of the other two races in the game had a turn at the top, no? This isn't really the point of discussion. Terran can do a lot of stupid shit early/mid game, and hence win. I would like to know what are the probabilites of teran winning in games longer than 25 minutes? Take adventage of the supperiority of early/mid game damage MAYBE??? Your again missing the point on a few levels here. Its simply bad design if a race cant win late game (or if its too hard tow in late game). After these recent patches we have terrans playing outdated strategies. It's fair for them to lose but not fair to call UP. Why doesn't Terran add 5-10 tanks to the BioBall? They want mobility? Well than they pay with vulnerability. Wrong wrong. Terrans dont do outdated strategies. THey do optimal strategies. Bio is everything terran can do(thor/banshee is really really bad if the toss knows its ocmming and is reacting correctly). Tanks are just bad tvp btw. Btw I am not saying terran cant win. Im just saying its ´much harder for terran to win than it is for toss. Mediocore toss plays > beats mediocore terran play.
You see Terran players are just better than you. If you are of march up on the ladder the only reason you win is because the Terran race is weaker. You skill level factors little, since your race is just better. You are in fact playing SC2 on easy mode.
If a Terran were to race switch, they would destroy 2 of their initial probes. Why? It is the only way to make it fair.
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I support this message. Terran is just a harder race to play, with more unforgiving macro mechanics and more rewarding micro mechanics (which have been balanced in such a way that failing to micro properly results in losing)
But I'm not whining for buffs or changes. I know I'm only diamond because I'm doing things wrong, not because my race is bad.
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well terran takes micro to be effective, so if you are bad at micro you will be weaker with terran, means you train more. Now where is the problem ? Makes terran the difficult race, i like it. Other races need micro too. But i guess you are talking about the point that the other races have aoes that can easily destroy unmicroed units and terran doesn't have these sort of units. That might be true, but we have units that can fight those units pretty effectively.
On low level its just another composition, someone better can use the micro intensive units, but this is true for the other races as well.
So i don't really see it as an issue. People that say they lose because of their race, are doing something wrong anyway. And its natural that a game that has such a diversity in units, is at some points easier for one race. But the only solution would be just one race with different models.
And the terran domination in korea doesn't only come from the micro only.
Anyway i love terran how they are and love playing them, by the way seeker works on low lvel just fine lol. And actually since the emp nerf infestors outrange ghosts.
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It may be a bit of an exaggeration, but i think this is what TS is trying to say:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2nQxN.jpg)
Which kinda explains why korean terrans are owning korean protosses and korean zergs but foreign terrans arent exactly owning foreign protosses and zergs.
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Well I am not going to talk about balance, but the one thing that annoys me most is that people always seem to cheer for the non Terran player in events like MLG/Dreamhack.
For example some casters did pull of bad jokes like:
"Can´t wait for the Final this year! it´s gonna be awesome!"
"Yee I am curious to see which TvT it will be"
Don´t see why people are bashing on Terrans(correct me If i am wrong i get that feeling)
For me the most complete Satisfying thing is to see a really good terran microing, and owning 
Like Boxers TvZ in BW, so incredible ! I dont get it why people dont wan´t to see such an amazing play !.
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On December 01 2011 01:45 Honeybadger wrote:
I support this message. All the races are hard to play, with more unforgiving macro mechanics and more rewarding micro mechanics (which have been balanced in such a way that failing to micro properly results in losing)
But I'm not whining for buffs or changes. I know I'm only diamond because I'm doing things wrong, not because my race is bad.
Ahhhhhh...so much better. It is the little things that matter.
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If I thought that Blizzard had made any changes that significantly decreased the ability to micro Terran units, I would agree with you.
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Not sure if Polt said it 1-2 GSL's ago that once patch hits "all the bad terrans will drop out from GSL because of this"
I could sympathise with the OP but for this.
Here is Polt (I also think it was him) stating the GSL was oversubscribed with bad Terrans prior to a certain patch.
Presumably bad Terrans don't have awesome micro and multitasking.
Yet they were still able to eliminate top-notch Zergs and Protoss.
To me, this undermines rather than reinforces the pillars supporting the OP's hypothesis. Polt didn't think the GSL was full of Terrans because Terran was balanced but rewarded great micro better. He thought they didn't deserve to be there. He didn't think they were as good as the Zergs and Protoss they were beating.
If he's right, and the patch corrected an imbalance that was allowing inferior players to flourish, need we look further for an explanation of the distribution of races in the GSL?
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On November 30 2011 13:10 BlueBoxSC wrote:
You're choosing selectively to look at foreigner Terran players, and that's a terrible point to argue on. Koreans (and I hate to say this, because I don't believe in the Korean/Foreigner divide, or I don't want to, at least) generally provide higher level play, and that's why there's always been a Terran in the Ro4 in the GSL.
Still, I feel like the design of Terran is remarkably solid, and it's actually the ineffectual design of the other races (in that they don't have amazing micro capability like T) that leads to this perception.
I know you said this thread wasn't about balance, but someone will step in and tell me I'm flaunting about garbage, so game is balanced.
About the Korea/Foreigner divide you are talking about: I don't think it exists either. In broodwar, the only reason there was a huge skill cap is that the Koreans practice HARDER. In sc2, we actually have dedicated teams that are training almost as hard as the Koreans and therefore we can compete.
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On December 01 2011 01:52 Clazziquai10 wrote:It may be a bit of an exaggeration, but i think this is what TS is trying to say: Which kinda explains why korean terrans are owning korean protosses and korean zergs but foreign terrans arent exactly owning foreign protosses and zergs.
lol @ top Foreigners closer to bronze level than to Korean level.
Does this means I have chances to beat Idra, Thorzain or Mana in a BO3??? Wow I didn't knew !!
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On December 01 2011 00:31 ceaRshaf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 00:22 Hider wrote:On December 01 2011 00:04 ceaRshaf wrote:On November 30 2011 23:59 Hider wrote:On November 30 2011 23:38 Belha wrote:On November 30 2011 22:49 Hider wrote:On November 30 2011 21:38 tomatriedes wrote:
In last month's TLPD win rate graph, which takes into account tournaments worldwide, terran was ahead of the other two races and, according to the same figures, has been ahead of the other two races since the game was released. Let me emphasize- this is not just GSL, but tournaments worldwide. I'm sorry OP, but these figures mean more to me than picking a few recent tournaments. Perhaps in next month's TLPD win rate graph we'll see slightly less terran domination but, if that's the case, that can only be a good thing, considering they've been ahead of the other two races since the game was released. About time one of the other two races in the game had a turn at the top, no? This isn't really the point of discussion. Terran can do a lot of stupid shit early/mid game, and hence win. I would like to know what are the probabilites of teran winning in games longer than 25 minutes? Take adventage of the supperiority of early/mid game damage MAYBE??? Your again missing the point on a few levels here. Its simply bad design if a race cant win late game (or if its too hard tow in late game). After these recent patches we have terrans playing outdated strategies. It's fair for them to lose but not fair to call UP. Why doesn't Terran add 5-10 tanks to the BioBall? They want mobility? Well than they pay with vulnerability. Wrong wrong. Terrans dont do outdated strategies. THey do optimal strategies. Bio is everything terran can do(thor/banshee is really really bad if the toss knows its ocmming and is reacting correctly). Tanks are just bad tvp btw. Btw I am not saying terran cant win. Im just saying its ´much harder for terran to win than it is for toss. Mediocore toss plays > beats mediocore terran play. Well maybe they should force tanks in the composition because they have splash. EMP the zealots and tanks melt them down. I find terrans really cocky that they want to win a fight with bio against a protoss army that has storm, colosus and archon, so big AOEs.
You're not really getting it. Tanks just are not good enough in TvP. They're not worth it. They are NEVER costefficient lategame, except when the protoss is playing like a retard.
They have uses in specific timing attacks and allins (one/two base) but that's it. Once the toss gets more tech and upgrades, they start sucking. Badly.
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On December 01 2011 02:19 GreyMasta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 01:52 Clazziquai10 wrote:It may be a bit of an exaggeration, but i think this is what TS is trying to say: Which kinda explains why korean terrans are owning korean protosses and korean zergs but foreign terrans arent exactly owning foreign protosses and zergs. lol @ top Foreigners closer to bronze level than to Korean level. Does this means I have chances to beat Idra, Thorzain or Mana in a BO3??? Wow I didn't knew !!
Are you serious? That pic is just ilustration of course! Either shut... your mouth, or use your brain...
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This isn't BW. Terran is not the most mechanical race.
Terran has more resiliency both because of the design of their basic production units and the mule (and I suppose superrepair bunkers as well).
Terrans simple combos scale amazingly with upgrades as the game goes on.
Mechanically you can shift click your hypereffective drops. If you're running an MMA style drop campaign, OK then you're looking really impressive on par with Hero's warp prism pvz. Macroing you hit a hotkey to macro EZPZ while you're microing your units. In PvT, your splash is more devastating and more unforgiving. Likewise, while you do active control in your microing you pay marginally less attention to the location or arrangement of your troops compared to the other races. "Metagame" wise you can generally play mindgames with an opening that threatens a 1-1-1 and take a pretty safe 1rax expo. There are few reasons you can't be on par or ahead in bases in most matchups (atleast first 10 minutes)
Only exception to the microcase is the latelategame as stated by Drewbie. Because once your army gets emped... not much spell tricks a toss can do beyond the initial positioning.
The foreign results can in large part be explained by the foreign participation in Korea.
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On December 01 2011 02:19 GreyMasta wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2011 01:52 Clazziquai10 wrote:It may be a bit of an exaggeration, but i think this is what TS is trying to say: Which kinda explains why korean terrans are owning korean protosses and korean zergs but foreign terrans arent exactly owning foreign protosses and zergs. lol @ top Foreigners closer to bronze level than to Korean level. Does this means I have chances to beat Idra, Thorzain or Mana in a BO3??? Wow I didn't knew !!
i think you missed the "bit of an exaggeration" part
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If Heart of Swarm brings more micro-intensive units to Protoss and Zerg, I believe the 'fundamental' problem that OP is mentioning will fix itself quite nicely. Units like Viper, Oracle, and Replicator seem to fulfill this issue imo.
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And of course, the OP is Terran
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I skimmed the original post but in general I agree, from Bronze to Diamond terran is the easiest race, then protoss with zerg being the hardest, but once you get into masters Zerg is by far the easiest race to play, then protoss then terran is actually quite difficult. This is not a problem with terran this is just how the game should be, zerg needs to be made way harder to play... it is wayyyyy too easy, just look at someone like sheth, he is no one, but because he plays the easiest race he is able to achieve things in SC2.
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i understand the purpose of this thread, but i don't think its one thats really threadworthy. if they tried to balance this game for all the bronzies it would never succeed as an esport, adjusting the game to balance at the highest possible level is the best way, and only way imo, to do it. only at that point do glaring imbalances really begin to show. as the ghost has proven, and still proves despite the emp nerf. otherwise you'll be trying to balance over people's in-game mistakes and lack of action which even sounds like a poor idea, let alone being one.
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On December 01 2011 02:05 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +Not sure if Polt said it 1-2 GSL's ago that once patch hits "all the bad terrans will drop out from GSL because of this" I could sympathise with the OP but for this. Here is Polt (I also think it was him) stating the GSL was oversubscribed with bad Terrans prior to a certain patch. Presumably bad Terrans don't have awesome micro and multitasking. Yet they were still able to eliminate top-notch Zergs and Protoss.To me, this undermines rather than reinforces the pillars supporting the OP's hypothesis. Polt didn't think the GSL was full of Terrans because Terran was balanced but rewarded great micro better. He thought they didn't deserve to be there. He didn't think they were as good as the Zergs and Protoss they were beating. If he's right, and the patch corrected an imbalance that was allowing inferior players to flourish, need we look further for an explanation of the distribution of races in the GSL?
I think what Polt said makes a lot of sense. I remember Artosis saying on SotG that a lot of "bad Terrans" were going to suffer because of the EMP nerf, as they would not hit as many and they'd get stormed more. We saw that in that hour-long game between TOD and Happy at dreamhack (not shitting on Happy, just saying pre-nerf he would have left no templar un-EMPed), and that a lot of "bad terrans" who thought they were good were going to start losing more games TvP.
I don't sympathize with a lot of the current threads that terran players have been making about the inherent "betterness" of Terran players. Terran micro is simply more rewarding, not more difficult. I don't think Terran has ANY fundamental problems. Furthermore- Terrans are still set on Bio play in TvP, and most refuse to mech instead focusing on Bio play which is going to be inherently weaker, especially to AoE attacks. If terrans want to play a more mobile style they need to accept that its going to be weaker and move on.
There needs to be like, a Terran Bunker thread, where all the Terran players can go to post threads like this and they can all agree and have fun together with their marines and ghosts and shit.
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EPT
